Coin Counter Frame Cost/Leniency
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 พ.ย. 2018
- I go over the frame costs and leniency regarding the coin counter counting up to various coin counts.
In conclusion, coin counts have the following properties:
0 to 50: no time cost, maximum leniency
51 to 54: no time cost, suboptimal leniency
55 to 70: time cost
71 to 101: no time cost, maximum leniency
102 to 108: no time cost, suboptimal leniency
109 to 32767: time cost - เกม
I can feel my brain cells multiplying with every video
300th Like :3
Aryan 10 weird flex
@@Schobbish ?
@@UltraAryan10
But ok
but anything multiplied by 0 is still 0
You’re not playing Mario 64 seriously enough if you’re _not_ making piecewise functions to show lost time.
Wow, I had never seen that hatless animation before. Thanks for that, I'll cherish it forever.
Have you ever played the game?
@@31redorange08 I have, and I don't remember ever seeing the animation.
@Tab Nah, it's actually a secret force field generator. That's also why Mario can take multiple hits - his shields are just getting damaged. Without his hat the secondary shield in his nose has to do all the work and his shield durability halves (ever wondered why the nose is so big? That's why!)
@@toboterxp8155 Yeah, but kojima stated that mario 64 isn't canon with the other games in the metal gear franchise.
@@neilisbored2177 But what about Star Fox? Maybe Mario is responsible for the sanitation on the Big Fox.
Imagine this being someone's first pannen video
Honestly, I could see this being a good intro. There's nothing too crazy about it, the graphs are pretty clear cut, and he doesn't do any confusing techniques that would have been explained in earlier videos (like going to parallel universes).
speedrunner from the future where speedrunning 120 stars is almost completely optimized?
@@DebugCat prob
topkoek
Quite a simple one to start with , tbh
At this point in time, I'm 100% sure you know more about this game than the developers.
And you blow my mind in every video with your effort. Hats off.
no, keep the hats on, do you want to lose time?
@@alecrutz6979 you're right.
@@alecrutz6979 But what about the Hat-in-Hand-Glitch?
@@unitrader403 good point
I wanna see Pannen make a lecture about how to optimally open a mailbox.
Pimpeaux if you dont jump over the stairs you might lose up to 10 frames
If there are between 8 and 15 letters it will take you longer to look through them all.
@@renakunisaki but at 16 letters, the amount of care decreases, making them take 10 frames each instead of 20.
Getting mail speedrun WR any% TAS explained
Learning piecewise functions with pannenkoek
topkoek
I'm a trainee project manager. In our business we have a very similar concept to what you call leniency, which we call "float" or "slippage" (not to be confused with the "float" from computer programming). The float of any particular task is how much behind schedule that task can be completed, before the entire project is delayed.
So first you cause hyperinflation, then you explain how to counteract that hyperinflation, and then you show how you can precisely control the hyperinflation? We must go deeper!
So for RTA runners, they should either collect all 100 coins if doing that star, or at most fewer than 50 for optimal leniency, and when getting the 100 coin star they should get as close to exactly 100 coins as possible without extras.
I was actually discussing this with a friend earlier and it's great to see a video so well timed to it! Thanks Pannen. Your videos are excellent quality and great content!
It could theoretically be more optimal to leave a 100 coin star stage with more than 100 coins, basically.
No, this shows there's no time loss from having up to 108 coins.
But above 101, you have to be quicker and quicker to input "down, down, A" for the menu-ing to not lose any time.
It also shows if you're not doing 100 coins, there's no time loss from picking up coins up to 54 coins (but again, from 51 coins onward, the input window gets stricter).
In short: getting a couple more than 100 coins is fine, and you're probably never going to lose time to the coin counter when not doing a 100 coin star.
for a 100 coin star, wouldn't it be faster to exit the stage?
@@DebugCat usually you pair it with another star (often a red coin star)
@@topsyturvy1097 what if:::::::::: you DIDN"T
Thanks to you I'll never hear the file select music the same ever again
Is this the first video you've seen from him? Pretty much every one of his videos uses that music.
gairisiuil No I've been watching Pannen for years. Just never thought abiut it before.
Oh
Every time I think we as a species have finally finished finding things to overanalyze about Super Mario 64, Pannen uploads.
I didn't know you could play in real-time. Crazy
It looks to me like the optimal regions happen to coincide with what most runners or TASers would go for anyway - either well under 50, or no more than a little over 100. I wonder if there's any cases where the current RTA or TAS route _does_ lose any time to the coin counter. (My guess: a couple frames lost in the 102-108 region for RTA, and no time lost in TAS.)
Only the Japanese could get 32 thousand coins in one level.
see his video coin count
Unless this is a joke
gairisiuil It is. Better delete it before we get some smarties saying "r/woooosh" like we've never seen before.
@@gairisiuil r/woooosh
Jk
Red Darmi JK
Yesterday was real 9/11
It's because the value of the Dollar is much greater than that of the Yen. We don't have as high of a cap because we don't need it when buying things on a day-to-day basis.
Further observation because im bored
At 55 coins, each additional coin is two more frames, until you get 71 coins. Essentially, image if the game actually paused for 2 frames if you picked up a coin while you have between 55 and 71.
This means if you have 55 coins, and are considering running through a field of 15 coins, the methods described would save you an entire second to not. But, if you do decide so, running out of your way to get one more coin will save you the time you lost.
Someone get this man an honerary doctorate
A doctor of plumbing or what?
@@toboterxp8155 Doctor of Mario.
Obvious but still good.
It's true what they say; money is time.
Wait...
When your frame dies for a second.
You give me knowledge I never knew I wanted. Thank you, Goddenkoek.
There's some level of art to be appreciated with each of pannen's uploads. We love each one, keep them coming!
Never stop making videos, you're a national treasure
Mario ain't scratching the cheek, he's brushing the moustaches
I love the phasing in the side-by-side shots
You are a madman!
Please continue.
3:00 First time in my life I'm seeing a function like this outside of math class...
Time to pester RTA speedrunners about Coin Count Leniency whenever they get more than 101 coins!!
I love these explanatory videos.
I've said this before, but I do honestly hope you have the opportunity to pursue graduate studies in math or computer science. Your ability to research and then explain complex concepts is phenomenal
I've wanted this video for a long time
Love the content!
YES! I've wanted to know this information for so long! It's not really helpful to me, but it's interesting at that
I never knew saving loses frames. Now I know why TASers don't save!
Pannen you forgot to mention another beneficial side effect.
If you extrapolate the diagonals on your leniency graph backwards you see how many extra frames you have to mess with the options while the animation plays.
Given 6 additional frames allows you to press Save and Continue without losing any time.
So for all standard stars including 8 red coins, a speedrunner can get as little coins as possible and press Save and Continue without losing time. Only the Hundred Coin Stars would require going to the Don't Save option within the leniency frames.
Fascinating, I wonder when runners will start implementing this in
this guy is a legend, play game with math
Fascinating.
Danke, Pannen.
I don't even speedrun mario 64, but I love your content
Our Prince has returned
For anyone who doesn't know what the half-frames are about, basically although the game runs at 30fps, lag can be applied in half-frames, so if the game takes just barely too long to run a frame, it can wait 1/60 of a second before drawing it, instead of 1/30. These 1/60s intervals are known as Vertical Interrupts (VIs), and the game will always lag by an integer number of VIs in any given situation.
The endlessly looping safe file theme can be a real torture sometimes.
did i really just watch a 7-minute video with graphs that showcase the time cost in frames of having various coin counts in super mario 64
i fuckin love pannen
how is it 2 frames of input when you even show that the optimal sequence would be "down --> nothing --> down+A" ?
isn't this 3 frames or didn't you count the very first frame into this calculation? i'm a bit confused
also i didn't completely understand what exactly causes the 102+ coins to make it slower
is this where marios animation ends and the menu wants to show up but has to wait for the coins to be counted?
i'm interested so i would be glad if someone could clearify this, thanks!
also awesome work pann! this is really usefull!
The down+a happens on the first frame of being selectable, so it selects the option with a.
This is art
When you do side-by-side comparisons with both instances' audio playing, could you maybe only play the left track of the left instance and the right track of the right instance?
Great Recommendation! I hope he sees this. (or something like this)
0:50 That's...interesting. I must admit I've never collected a Star in Super Mario 64 DS (I'd imagine an improved version of the animation would be present in this) without a hat on, so I just assumed Mario would skip doffing his hat. Nope; he goes looking for it.
How can you say not saving saves 5 and A HALF frames??? A frame is a frame, you can't say it's only half
I really want to know the music you use during your explanations. It’s a good song
So which stages in an RTA speedrun would you be in danger of ending the level at 50-70 coins? Usually you'd ignore coins completely unless you were going for the 100 coin and red coins stars, but those are routed to put you at exactly 100 coins anyways. The only other use for coins is to heal, but in that case, you've probably already done something to put yourself behind in the run and you can't afford to play suboptimal safety strats. Which leaves but one consideration:
It typically wouldn't be worth it to avoid coins while going around a level, since they are harmless, so if the optimal path has you running through coins, then who cares? So then are there any stages where the optimal path has you running through exactly 50-70 coins? And in those stages, would the time it takes to run around some of them or run into more take more time than the up to -30 something frame cost of leaving the stage with 50-70 coins? Honestly, just the first part would be pretty rare, so the second part, where you're so close to the 70 barrier that you can spend less than a second to collect 1 or 2 coins to save time overall when leaving the level should be even rarer.
Well, the most relevant part of this research is the 101 coin boundary. The 50-70 coin domain won't matter much, since you basically can't collect that much by accident. The 101 boundary however might easily be slightly surpassed, if you use a blue coin to reach 100 coins for the 100 coin star, or collect some more while going to collect a level-ending star (probably the red-coin-star).
brain thiccness up ⤴️
Hey pannen, did you see the clip where Dezanig clipped through the wall in TTC ?
Is that like some kind of frame rule
Nice vid
Vintage pannen uploading consistently
Still doing nostalgic science in 2018
*raises hand* Is this going to be on the Final?
in school for technology class we watch informational videos on how speedrunning techniques of Super Mario 64 work
facinating
You can simplyfy cost(x) by removing the conditons for 0 and let 0 be the default case.
108 coins is the last coin count in the yellow region before we go on to the red region? How appropriate.
oh yeah give me more graphs baby!!!
Wouldn't it be amazing if hatless Mario was like 1% faster and nobody ever noticed?
How the hell?
Meanwhile, cheese05 is like 40 seconds ahead of place 2. Which must be a lot of optimal leniency.
Frame leniency is a bit of a difficult concept to grasp. I think it might have been made easier to understand with some sort of frame by frame walkthrough of selecting an option and denoting what can and can't be done on each individual frame
I guess this is my birthday present. I'll take it! Sweet 16!
is this because of the emulation?
Pannenkoek: Saving you every possible frame and A press in your Super Mario 64 speedrun
in one part it sounds just like framerules in smb1
0:45 Why was the music distorted?
AlexINF because both videos are spitting out audio at the same time making it sound weird
It's not distorted
It's simply that it wasn't overlayed perfectly
@@LalitoTV that was the point, to show that there's a timing difference on two scenes so the overlaying audios would end up distorting rather than properly folding each other.
@@kikispantig they wouldn't be "distorting" each other if they were overlayed perfectly,
the coin counter differences don't (or at least, shouldn't) affect the music nor Mario's voice.
As evidenced by 1:00,
Where the two recordings were actually overlayed perfectly.
It's flanging. That's what happens when you play a sound over itself slightly delayed.
But I thought it capped at 999 or 255? Oh boy I have some learning to do.
birdie lover the SAVED score is. It still counts up to the number you collected though, when it saves your score though it resets the score to 0 every 256th coin, which is what you’re talking about
The coin record is capped at 255.
Ahh.
@@daridon60 But in the JP (Japanese) version, it's possible for the coin counter to go above 999 due to a coding error. However, the saved score is still capped at 255.
On English releases, in-course is capped at 999. In some Japanese releases, there is no real cap, so it overflows to negative and then back to 0 if you go high enough.
Doesn't the menu wrap around so you can push up + A?
my thoughts exactly
No, the menu does not wrap around. The only way to get to the bottom is to press down twice.
@@SSM24_
fucc
@@alecrutz6979 I feel your pain
That's pretty cool, pannen
Finally.
0:51
mario : where is my hat!
This is certainly cool, but I don't think a zero A press run is ever going to get THIS optimized.
1:01 I don't want to be that guy but how do you save half a fame?
1:55 that music makes me think of parallel universes.
for a 100 coin star, wouldn't it be faster to exit the stage?
No. Even if your coin count is in the "lost time" zone (which won't necessarily happen even with a 100-coin star, since 100 or 101 coins is still at maximum leniency), in pretty much any practical scenario it's not going to be _nearly_ enough for exiting the stage to genuinely save time over collecting another star while you're still in the stage.
@@SSM24_ what if you do 100s last, then go to a different stage when you've exited? at least for the ones in the main lobby where you'd have to go through there anyways
100 coin stars dont lose time anyway, which he showed in the video
If you're taking the extra time to go back into the level after getting all 6 mission stars just to get the 100 coin star, you're wasting time.
thos 7th grade funktions just to look complicated are hillarious xD. I like it :3
1:14 a frame is a frame...
seriously though, how do you save half a frame?
My guess is that it might be due to the fact that the N64 actually runs at 60 frames per second, while SM64 runs at 30 frames per second... but the amount of time it takes to save doesn't necessarily line up with that.
I'm not entirely sure though. That does seem kind of odd.
Do i hate mars bars
I dont think I ever asked that question but ok
IMO you shouldn't have 2(54-x) but 108-2x in your formulas for clarity sake.
Sm64 science. Call for papers!!
over 70 coins%
I just learned about piecewise functions, lmao
Sound is really weird thru headphones
and none of this is factoring in how much time it takes to COLLECT the coins
What I gather from this video
Is that I didn't understand what it means to fast
I can't wait to hear speedrunners complaining about 102 coins and losing the run to rng
A frame is a frame. You cannot save only a half.
Calm down nasa !
Pannen makes a video for RTA, I get a frame-perfect click on the like button.
Panen actually uploaded a video?!
THIS IS MADNESS!
Madness?
THIS. IS. SPARTAAAAA
It takes 9 minutes to collect 32767 coins.
All I got from this is "dont collect way too many coins"
it's only freshmen math guys
Why does Japan get more coins?
They didn't set a cap on the number of coins in the Japanese version.
@@Ajm573 They DID set a cap, but they confused 'Coins' with 'Lives', creating the '1000+ Coins = -25 Lives' Glitch.
^
The reason it has the number pannen showed is because it will overflow if it goes over that amount
Half a frame? _What?_