@@Nemo-ew2hd he was also the only one to make that wish to save everyone else, otherwise everyone would've been erased anyway. Sacrifcing the cruise for his family (lol), trying to get back to look after the wildlife refuge, and embracing the 'Human' way of sacrificing themselves by attempting it himself when he shielded them from Jiren's super blast. He just somehow survived. 17 is a hero. 🦎
@@meaningfulmindfulness15 they were planning 17's "sacrifice" to be a fraud, so jiren could get knocked out, goku was gonna wish back the universes anyway
By sheer coincidence, a scientist made cyborgs that were more powerful than the Alien emperor who rule the universe. They just happen to came right after the Heroes defeated the Alien emperor.
They actually came 4 years after. 3 after freeza came to earth. And Gero had spies on freeza. But I get your point. Gero also made a predictive assessment if Goku's strength and growth so they were really designed to outperform Goku after he showed his strength increase during the Saiyan fight.
The real question is scope. Humans can look to stars and imagine going there. The strength frieza shown during the namek saga was unfathomable. If goku and piccolo were the examples, then radditz should have been the goal for the androids. Frieza was hundreds of millions times more powerful than the strongest being gero had ever seen. That's like designing a bomb to destroy the universe after seeing gun powder.
i remember the battle against vegeta was the last fight gero mentioned recording, but gero also mentioned that he wasn't interested in monitoring goku anymore because he would be able to predict goku's power increases. gero knew that the saiyans wouldn't be goku's power ceiling. it's more like seeing the progression from gunpowder to nuclear bomb then designing an antimatter bomb in response.
@@Vapor817 Yeah exactly. Gero had already tried to make an android to defeat Goku. He's not shooting for "equal to Goku's current power" he's shooting for what he expects Goku to become later... and he needs to double THAT in order to be certain he can kill Goku. Yeah, that's a tall order, and is pretty ridiculous to think about, but it's the goal he had.
Hold on though strength wise you’re right but fundamentally what gives them power is the same. U can see a brick fall or a titanic ship fall but see the same gravity
@poppyface Even with this considered, Gero himself admits to never having anticipated something like the Super Saiyan transformation, so why would he bother attempting to design androids that powerful? This isn't even taking into account the nonsensical leaps in power gains that Goku recieved on Namek to begin with (from 90,000 to 3,000,000 in one fight). How could anyone predict something so absurd? Add to that the SSJ form, which apparently multiplies Goku's already ridiculous strength by fifty times. If Gero's androids managed to be waaay stronger than even all that, the original point still stands - it is overkill to the extreme and makes no sense from a logical standpoint. Of course, we all know the real reason why the androids are so strong - because Toriyama, creative as he may be, puts little extended thought into his story concepts and simply splats out the first thing that comes to his mind without bothering to make sure everything makes sense with his prior established narrative. This is why after all these years, it is the fans who have to argue amongst themselves, coming up with fan-theories to explain away the inconsistencies in Toriyama's writing.
I think the problem feels so glaring because it defies what TVTropes calls the “Sorting Algorithm of Evil”. Where every villain is a bigger threat than the one that came before. 1-Pilaf was a silly manchild who had 2 henchmen under him. 2-The Red Ribbon Army was a powerful military bent on world domination. 3-King Piccolo was the greatest evil the world had ever known. And now he’s back to plague the Earth once again. When Goku defeats Piccolo Jr he becomes the strongest being on Earth. The next logical step is to introduce threats beyond planet Earth. 4-The reason Goku was so strong was because he was a member of a powerful race of space warriors. Raditz was a being from the same planet that Goku is from and has the same abilities but even greater power. 5-It turns out Goku and his brother were both weaklings among their people and Earth’s heroes must now face the elite of the Saiyan race. Particularly, Vegeta, the mightiest Saiyan of all. 6-The adventure leaves planet Earth and enters the very stars as our heroes must now face an intergalactic empire made up of the universes strongest fighters; led by the same invincible tyrant that annihilated the Saiyans and rules the universe. This tyrant can only be defeated by fulfilling an ancient alien prophecy. 7-The heroes must change their fate by defeating 2 cybernetically enhanced humans created by a scientist who worked for an organization that Goku already defeated when he was a kid. You can kinda see how the Androids might feel out of place to some people.
Exactly, that's why the buu saga is the worst because after cell there was literally no where left to go especially with goku dead and toriyama had to make up all kinds of stuff just to keep the story going where as before he was just kind of adding on to what was already there
It's funny also because what it implies is that the heroes were impossibly lucky with the order the villains showed up. If you switch any of them around, any at all, say the saiyans show up before King Piccolo or Buu gets revived during the Namek arc, then everyone would've died.
I really wish Toriyama would have stuck with his ki absorbtion direction for the androids, aside from being more interesting then "theyr'e just generically stronger/faster and don't tire", it would have given a logical explanation for the threat. Since the androids are enhanced by the ki they steal, the very reason the androids were so powerful was BECAUSE the Z fighters were so powerful, not inspite of it, and the fact that the Z fighters trained thanks to trunks in this time line not only didn't help, but actually made things worse, since upon absorbing their training enhanced ki, they just became even stronger still then they would have been if the heroes didn't train, the ultimate difference making in the time line not being how strong any of the characters were, but new techniques they learned in the time gap that allow them to combat the power level neutralizing ki absorbtion in creative ways. Heck, it could have brought back the old characters to relevance, a straight beam attack is useless, but Yamcha has created a Sou-Ki-Dama, a fully controllable miniature spirt bomb that he can navigate around the absorption points, or whatever just for a random possibility.
If he stuck with that, we wouldn't even be asking this question honestly. The androids would functionally be a secret weapon for whoever's side they're on nust by merit of being able to be bolstered by however strong Goku is. But the way it played out....yeah bs
the problem with that more sharpens towards fan preferences, while the concept would be nice as most interviews with Toriyama elaborate he's fully aware of what his fans like and don't like and an anti-meta ability like ki absorption probably wasn't selling well which is why it and the original androids got cut for better or for worse; but to be honest I like 16, 17, &, 18 I even think cells movie monster nature and complete amalgamation of the z fighters was cool, I guess you could say it's preference though. the idea would be good to explore now all be it the manga tried and butched the results so I'm of the opinion execution is better then concept with anti-meta abilitys.
@@chronic-joker This got touched on in the second Cooler movie. After Cooler's army of robot Coolers beats Goku and Vegeta they overload him by forcing him to absorb all their energy at once, thus causing him to explode.
@@tdsamedi777 yeah, he was a really scary opponent for Goku. Also.... apparently Super 17 only died because of 18 causing the good and evil version of 17 to struggle for control.
There is nothing Good or Bad with Gero. He was a scientist who was funded by the "Red Ribbon Army." It is this organization that was notorious for criminal activities. Even then they encountered Goku only because the former wanted Dragon balls and Bulma was able to locate them. As far as Gero is considered, Goku destroyed his company, his family and his livelihood. So he went dark and created Androids and the Cell to kill Goku for his revenge.
That applies for literally every villain though.... imagine if original broly joined the team... imagine if thanos joined avengers, imagine all the great things they could do for good...
For me it's not even a question of HOW he made such powerful androids, but WHY? Even if he extrapolated an increase in Goku's strength based on when he last observed him (Saiyan Saga), there's no way he should have predicted super saiyan. Based on what he knew, his androids should have been like using a nuke to kill a mouse.
A single 12 year old child destroyed a powerful military force that was capable of ruling the world, if I was Gero I'd go overboard with the power level of the androids too.
Because it's Goku. He knew it was very possible that Goku would increase his strength as he got older, and watching kid Goku go from destroying an army to killing the demon king solidified his point. His computer could've also made some predictions as well
Well we know for a fact he didn't predict super Saiyan. That's why the last batch of androids were UNDERpowered. Gero didn't want something as strong as Goku but stronger. Maybe he got carried away with his experiments and that's why he purposefully made the original androids weaker in the alternate future timeline. Especially after Goku died. Gero would also have witnessed Goku lose and then comeback stronger or been aware of it twice. With tao Pai Pai maybe, and against piccolo for sure. So he made them strong enough to account for a power boost from Goku in case Goku got away.
Gero himself brings up that he was closely calculating and monitoring the prowess of Goku and the Dragon Team, and wanted to ensure he got ahead of where they could reach. He wanted his plans to go without a hitch, so he likely made use of every possible tool and bioengineering at his disposal to get it right from the getgo because he likely expected his nemesis' survival would only come back to haunt him. That said, he didn't really overshoot it _that_ much. Keep in mind that Gero himself got his arm chopped off by Piccolo pre-Kami, and so he and 19 were within the destructive capabilities of most of the Dragon Team if they got jumped on outright with their better attacks rather than the surprise attacks and genocide they pulled off in public; When he saw what Goku and Vegeta were capable of as SS, he still felt he was strong enough to handle them, but with 19 gone, vastly outnumbered, and with an arm chopped off, he was forced to rely on the biodroid duo he was likely saving as a last resort because he was quickly losing ground. As for Cell himself, that was the computer working in Gero's place to continue to manufacture the bioweapon with added details from Frieza and King Cold, two extremely powerful beings that showed up with plenty of time for that project to "perfect" Cell's full potential.
I think it, ultimately, boils down to "He wanted to be absolutely certain Goku would die." Having examined the whole of the Saiyan saga, he realized the explosive, almost exponential growth of Goku in the intervening year of his death. He also saw the Oozaru form for the first time, and realized it offered a ten times increase in power...and it's also possible he saw the Zenkai boost. We also know he worked heavily in DNA, so he could have seen the potential of further massive growth. While I doubt he saw something that would indicate the Super Saiyan transformation, he wanted to be ABSOLUTELY FUCKING SURE Goku was going to die no matter what. All his androids up to that point wouldn't have even scratched Vegeta, so he went for as much power and capablility as possible. Except, he went too far. 13, 14, and 15 just wouldn't have been able to completely, absolutely outclass his maximum estimated growth. At this point, he had already created the power source of the androids, an infinite source of energy, but they couldn't make full use of it. So he built 16, who more than exceeded his wildest calculations. But, in his rush for power, he realized that 16 was too powerful, and sacrificed many limiters for that power to work properly, namely most of the behavior modifications. He couldn't even assume that 16 would TRY to kill Goku due to those flaws. (Also, apparently he was based on his son so...It's really up in the air.) He determined that utilizing this engine with pure mechanics just wouldn't work. This wouldn't give him something that was both strong enough to kill Goku, and completely loyal to him to ensure they would try. So, he went the Cyborg route. He kidnapped the twins who would later be 17 and 18, wiped their minds, and started to put all his Android knowledge into making them the perfect weapons. However, this method was a complete failure in terms of his goals. He had, successfully, turned them and made them more than capable of killing Goku's greatest projected power with ease...but there was even LESS loyalty, and they were still too unrestricted for him to control. The infinite power engine just wasn't going to work. So, back to the drawing board. He returned to the mechanical side of things, and came across the idea of surpassing any projected growth by absorbing it. A method that would keep the Android (comparatively) weaker, but would still be able to kill the Z-fighters without disabling the behavior limitations. Thus, he built 19 with the absorption engine in place. And he worked perfectly! Loyal, powerful, and more than enough to kill Goku by his predictions. But he still wanted to be certain, and one Android of 19's power may be overwhelmed by a combined force of Goku and Vegeta. So, using the knowledge gained from 17 and 18's conversion, he converted HIMSELF using his computer. But, the Infinite Engine was too risky without his personal touch, so he became an absorption model like 19. Now, we know how it all goes from there.
I was stated he had the idea and started creating Cell before the Androids. Realizing it would take too long to create Cell he turned to the Androids instead. They were needed anyway for Cell. They were designed to also become part of Cell. His ultimate biological machine. Cell doesn't have gears but the perfect bend of organs making him farther superior not to mention the combined skills and biology of the greatest life forms alive unto his desgin. Dr. Gero failed again because Cell had too much emotion just like all of his other Androids. Cell was prideful and it left too much opportunity for his opponent to win. I don't Gero realized Cell might Inherit too much personality from the stolen cells to create him
@@sirsir9665well Gero’s computer oversaw the genetic engineering of Cell so I think any of the flaws in his personality resulting from that can I think be more down to the computer’s decisions about what DNA would be more dominant, which also seems to change at each ‘stage’/form.
The Android Saga was a hugely missed opportunity and a prime example of how Toriyama arguably isn't that great of a story writer, in my opinion. Goku had far outclassed everyone when he achieved his Super Saiyan form. Putting him out of the fight with the heart virus was a great idea. The other characters would need to rise up to combat the new threat (would have made narrative sense for the androids to be weaker than Frieza). Through the tribulations and training, everyone could have closed the gap a little to catch up to Goku and remain relevant. But perhaps coolest of all, Vegeta could have had a huge development arc, initially fighting the androids out of pride, but then achieved Super Saiyan in order to save his son as well as the earth. (Poetic, since he'd tried to destroy it). Oh, and Kami's sacrifice would have actually meant something. And it would have been so dang badass to see the Saiyans alongside Piccolo battling Cell together. It's frustrating to me how much better written the series could've been...
To be fair, if Kami and Piccolo never fused, then they never would have gotten the information they needed to counter Cell's rampage because even at that point, none of the Z-fighters were anywhere close to strong enough to fight him. He likely would have just kept absorbing humans and by the time the Zfighters showed up to fight him he would have just roflstomped them all. The thing about Toriyama that people don't give him credit for is that he was VERY good at not breaking the core logic/physics of the series, no matter what it meant for the story. Toriyama's consistency is also what people hated about Gohan....they wanted Toriyama to make him the star of the manga, but Toriyama (who WROTE Gohan) knew that Gohan would literally never be able to replace Goku because Gohan's canon motivations and personality would have NEVER made him a warrior. Same with Piccolo. Even with that power boost and ESPECIALLY after the fusion, Piccolo was no longer a warrior. He would now take up the same position Kami did...and over time, Goku would have inevitably surpassed him again.
@@RemiusTheAwesome I'm actually cool with everything you said. I thought the Kami-Piccolo fusion was awesome, but it was a shame Piccolo's strength meant nothing after a couple episodes. Toriyama really did him dirty. I don't hate the Buu Saga as much as a lot of people do. I think that if The Cell Saga wrapped up with everyone defeating the big bad almost the way it happened, that would have been super cool. Goku being the hero against Buu, I'm fine with that. :)
@@stormrhode2330 i respect Your opinion but the point you mentioned makes no sense whatsoever... The z fighters closing the Gap even a little would've been a terrible writing Tien / Yamcha / Krilin / can never do such thing in one arc ... Goku trained his ass off both before fighting vegeta / after fighting vegeta/ had a massive zenkai boost so Goku is already in a league of his own in comparison with the others And goku hasn't aquired The legendary ssj yet If somehow they managed to " level up " the arc would end before it has even started Every z fighters played and extremely Great role in the android and cell saga especially Picolo daimao who fused with kami ( i mean that's one hell of a development ). And everyone know that cell saga was all about developing gohan + Vegeta Indeed got the greatest development and even in a far better way ( Majin vegeta and goku fight) it Just can't get better for Vegeta character So the android and cell saga despite some flaws here and there it still great writing Wise And again i totally respect Your opinion
Piccolo was already stronger than Frieza in his 2nd form and Gohan could get close with his rage boost. So really, you would have to removes half the cast for the human fighters to be relevant
@Juan Vasquez then if that’s the case he made a poor decision and make android 19 make him like him where if he was smart enough he would’ve choose to make himself like android 17and 18
@@joshgroban5291 They were harder to control because they kept their own personality. Since he would be making himself into one, he'd want to keep his own personality, so he really should have made himself like them. The only real explanation of why he didn't is it was extremely hard to make that level of tech and he couldn't somehow do it a third time. Maybe the energy source took too much resources to make and he wouldn't have been able to do another one in his lifetime.
@@sweep_swoop I think an old man and a mime aren’t as scary as two twin teenagers (which admittedly wasn’t as scary either because he had to make Cell too because of the Editor)
Not only that but one Android he created eventually went on to gain God Tier strength or at the very least close to it with no wishes, no training with Gods, no zenkai boosts nothing. 17 is pretty insane when you think about it lol
@@iceinmehveins6487 I mean you're not wrong, there are alot of cases you can argue and I can even see the other side of the aisle with 17 but he's the only one I can buy being so powerful. It makes me wonder what the hell he was doing during the Buu saga though, if he progressed as well as guys like Goku and Vegeta he sure as shit could've jumped in that fight.
A rival? Briefs invented a time travel device which spawned multiple timeliness across the omniverse. Gero's creations have incredible potential but I wouldn't put them on the same level as time travel.
@@rockk9753 ah yeah, future Bulma trading up with some other scientists could make for an interesting story. Future Bulma building time traveling androids that could go to future timelines to get upgrades for example.
I felt like the Androids were way overpowered. It was Shocking to me as a kid watching DBZ that there was that big of a power difference between Frieza and Cell honestly.
I can see Cell being stronger than Frieza due to his cells are in cell lol if that makes sense. 17 and 18 is awful writing in my opinion I have been saying this since the 90s. I love cell but the androids are garbage.
@@CrazyLocoInsane1 That’s hilarious, since we only got Cell because of Toriyamas Editor saying the androids were boring and to come up with something more, which is how cell came to be, even admitting the androids were supposed to be the big bad instead of cell.
That point you raised at the end is why Baby is a great villain. Despite Dr. Myuu basically being a palette swap Gero with sunglasses. The Tuffles made a good choice for an enemy. They'd already been introduced early in DBZ and were the Sins of the Saiyans. Baby was also the last Tuffle King fused with the machine mutant parasite.
Over the years, I had always imagined that since 16, 17 and 18 all had nukes installed within them, then, perhaps their infinite energy supply came from them being fitted with some sort of nanoscale reactors. They took a long time to burn out and (with the right resources and preparations) could be maintained/replaced/recharged somehow. The Androids strongly reminded me of the fleshbound, endoskeletal Terminator models(Which can repair themselves) and I figured Gero likely would have left behind detailed files in one of his many bases on how to repair specific models in the case of an emergency.
I always found it absurd that A human from earth built a couple of Androids who were indefinitely stronger than an alien tyrant with multiple transformations. Toriyama just needed to process the plot due to popularity
Em you do realize ki is basically a supernatural element as spirts and magic right while the androids are based on science fiction. I don’t know about you but I think the androids make more sense than the concept of ki. Your logic doesn’t really have a lot of sense and in all honestly with how the sayians physical abilities work with getting stronger after ever fight frieza should have never been able to kill there race.
Bro he didn't though, he was working alone in damp cave with limited resources. I think I would have been better if dr gero had a spie in capsule corp that was stealing alien tech and capsule tech to give it to him.
@@nani4249 how did he have limited resources though bro? Cause that cave in the episode where he wakes the androids up he had a full size lab in there including a fucking supercomputer and tanks to grow all 5 them, including Cell in he was in the basement that was the size of the lab upstairs.
@@LordMalice6d9 yeah, make it more crazy that Dr gero is only using technology from earth to make the androids that are all stronger than king cold and mecha Frieza combined
Let’s not forget the fact that Gero was clearly underprepared for his fight with Goku, since he had no idea what happened on Namek, and therefore did NOT know who Frieza was or what Super Saiyan is. And also, 17 and 18 did not know what Super Saiyan was either, and The Z-Fighters trained vigorously for three years in preparation for them. BUT STILL 17 and 18 kicked their asses, and Trunks stated that present 17 and 18 were stronger than their future variants 😲😲, despite warning them.
Gero was too obsessed with avenging his son and the RRA to move on with his life. Its a shame, since his genius could have done so much good and he could have become as rich as Dr Briefs
For me, the only explanation is that gero was able to use the cells from the z fighters and somehow in time, enhance them. Sort of like how a.i. learns/trains itself.
@@ryanambsdorf2859 probably 19 did it in the normal timeline, in Trunks timeline he probably had some servant robot do it. would explain how he got much done though, he put himself in a robot body, wouldn't need to eat and sleep.
@@FGame2star actually, the anime shows him getting killed as an Android, but i have no idea if the manga shows the same thing, or if they even show him getting killed
I find it funny you're trying to pass all of Bulma and Dr Brief achievements as humanity as a whole. When really they are freaking geniuses without comparison. It's the same as saying that all saiyans have the power to destroy the universe based solely on the achievements of Goku and Vegeta
Exactly. Dr.Briefs alone invented capsules (which is why they are rich), the gravity chamber, Goku's spaceship to Namek, repaired 16 within days, etc. These aren't even counting Bulma's sole accomplishments.
He also used super as examples of humans being capable to be more powerful than frieza....a show that came out many years later. However the complaints about the androids being more powerful than frieza where there from day one, so he should have used example from before the android arc to prove his point. That's like saying Jiren didn't get his powers from nowhere because 20 years from now there will be an arc where we see his species have always been this strong. The idea is great content material but the video itself was sloppy with poor reasoning.
>Loses his military contract job cuz of a kid >Invents perpetual energy >Could easily sell this technology, revolutionize human society, & retire >"Naw, fuck that kid." >Puts it into his robots who don't obey him
What always used to bug me wasn't so much that Gero could create the androids, but that no one else did. There was no society as technologically advanced as Earth in all the years that King Cold and Frieza were conquering planets that could create this tech, but Gero could? You'd think if it were possible to create machines that could so substantially dwarf Frieza in power, someone would have done it. But then someone said to me that there must be several warrior races besides the saiyans and among all of them, only Goku managed to overpower Frieza. Maybe, just as this was the unique power of Goku, this was also the unique genius of Gero. That satisfied me.
I think one of the issues a lot of people have is the jump in scale. Gero with the backing of the entire Red Ribbon Army and tons of help and funding created androids beat up by a child Goku with a power level of 100 or so. Next outing he has androids he built on his own in secret with no outside funding or help with a power level thousands of times stronger than anything he had seen up to that point.
Doctor Gero spied on Goku long enough to see his growth potential. Therefore he calculated how strong the androids needed to be, he kept making more so he could control them. The androids being stronger then Frieza makes sense because they were made for Goku.
But Frieza was stronger than Goku at the time of Gero’s data. He didn’t even know of Super Saiyan, nor Frieza, so how would he have planned for it? Gero was only expecting Kaioken.
If humanity has technology like that, it doesn't make sense to rely on the Z fighters all the time. They could just invent weapons to wreck the next threat that appears lol
You give Frieza 10 years worth of training and he gets a new form. If You Give Dr. Gero 10 years to develop An Android he most definitely can create a model on the level of Grand Priest or at least A God Of Destruction!!!!!
To me it sounds like Toriyama hadn't prepared for a scenario where DBZ continued after the Frieza saga, so he had to come up with a dumb idea which he thought was okay 'because comic book logic' and decided he'd just have it loosely tie in with earlier established canon. Having Cell be stronger than all the other warriors would actually make sense to me.
I think it might've made more sense power wise if they came before the saiyan saga. How do modified humans with materials(presumably from earth) be able to surpass a guy that casually destroys planets like popping fireworks? I get the whole "sum is greater than the parts" thing but yeah, Im glad you did this video. Something that has stood out to me
Em ki does not make sense as a concept so if anything the androids power actually makes sense by default since there technology based not supernaturally based.
1:39 Capsule Corp didn't have faster-than-light space travel from the beginning. It was only thanks to reverse engineering Goku's old saiyan space pod that Dr. Briefs was able to develop the technology. At the start of the Namek Saga, Bulma points out that getting to Namek using Capsule Corp's existing tech would take more than 4,000 years one-way.
Akira Toriyama planned on DBZ ending when Goku turns Super Saiyan and kills Frieza. The show became alot more popular then he expected, and fans wanted more. So he basically never planned on stronger characters.
They weren’t stronger that frieza or the Z fighters. It’s just the capabilities the Dr. Created them with. Impenetrable force fields, A body that would never run out of stamina / Ki. And Technology no one had ever faced before. I mean frieza’s technology wasn’t even that advanced yet. Plus that’s how Toriama wanted it to go 😅 🤷🏻
Gero had friezas cells... He knew how powerful the androids needed to be. Imagine how strong 16 would have been had he not been released sooner than he was supposed to be.
The Androids don’t make ANY sense. There’s NO way Dr.Gero could’ve predicted Goku’s power boost on Namek. He went from like 120,000 to 3,000,000 base form. Then, Super Saiyan increased that by 50x. Let’s say 17 and 18 are around 3,000,000 each and Goku didn’t go to Namek, he would be around 150,000. Think about it.. Goku: 150,000 17: 3,000,000 18: 3,000,000 And both of them don’t tire. Now only is it utterly stupid that Gero could create something that’s like thousands of times stronger than anything he ever saw, but then you have 17 who can fight in the Tournament of Power in Super. These Androids created to kill Goku are like if you used a Nuke to kill a mouse.
something scary to think of is that gero created the androids in his secret lab with very limited resources so imagine what Bulma could do if given enough schematics and time
Good thing that in the present time 17 and 18 are living great lives using their powers for good. Android 16 should be greatly partially credited for that change. Krillen falling for 18 and vice versa also helped.
I really don't think it's a problem that the androids were stronger than Freeza. The only thing that makes it a problem is Toriyama's shortsightedness as he decided that Freeza is the strongest in the universe. The Dragon Team had just ventured out into space and they've already encountered the strongest in the universe? Why couldn't Freeza have just been a strong guy among a universe full of strong guys? Toriyama fetishizes the idea of someone being the strongest, so when someone even stronger comes along afterwards, everyone calls bullshit on it when it didn't have to be a problem in the first place if it were never stated that Freeza was the strongest.
@@johnquach8821 he was aware of buu and beerus existence tho so he wouldn’t just throw around “strongest in the universe”. That’s just showing how toriyama didn’t think about half the things we writes about til last minute. If the idea of buu or beerus existed during the frieza saga, some sort of foreshadowing or even a small mention would have been good. Not hating on toriyama tho that’s just how he tends to write dragon ball
Frieza saga it was peak. So many fights, so many villains, vegetas backstory, super saiyan and an awesome planet blowing up in the background thr stakes we're to high. Frieza always felt like the MAIN boss.
IMO, a good way to make the Android Saga work better would have been for Goku to disappear after Frieza Saga for a while. Everyone thinks he's dead when the planet blows up (and Frieza doesn't randomly show up later). That way, everyone left in the story is weaker and we can have Dr. Gero showing up with his Androids who, while not actually stronger than Frieza, are strong enough to fight against the rest of the cast. Then we can have a legacy-based story where Gohan has to fight against one of his dad's old enemies when he was a kid and learn to fight for himself. Then maybe later on, we get signs that Goku might have survived and maybe he can return at the end of the arc to find his son grown and self-sufficient. Maybe Gohan can unlock SS during the end fight against the Androids, showing he has potential to outpower his dad, which was something they teased at one point, but then shelved. IDK just spitballing here.
@@lisboah the highest measured was 32000 (Low balling Goku's 8000+ to 8000, Kaioken 4x multiplier) But let's do the math; Goku had a resting power level of 416. We'llhigh ball it to 500 for the sake of our calculations. In the year he was dead, Goku jumped from 500 to 8000 (lowballed as it's a concrete number) The rate of multiplying his power is thus at minimum 16 each year. There were 4 years between Freeza and the Androids (1 year when Trunks arrived, 3 years of training for the Androids) 8000x16x16x16x16= 524,288,000. And that's *without* accounting for a minimum of a Kaioken 4x multiplier; which would set the power level to 2.1 billion. And given the rules of power levels, where to overwhelm, you need to double that. So 4.2 billion, rounded up
I’d imagine Earth is considered a back water planet both because of how naturally weak the humans are (even though the Human Z-Fighters have all but surpassed your average Saiyan Warrior at this point) plus the fact that while they are capable of FTL travel they haven’t actually colonized any other planet.
What’s crazy to me is how unnecessarily strong Gero made the androids if he thought that Goku only had a power level of 9,000-90,000 since he didn’t follow him to namek. I definitely don’t think the humans actually got that strong in super though. They just wanted the characters to have some useful scenes. I definitely don’t think any of the human fighters ever passed frieza level strength.
My theory on how the androids are so powerful is that Dr geron manage to get frieza tech that was destroyed by trunks and reverse engineering frieza technology and when trunks time travel dr geron had analyzed all of earth warriors dna especially goku he's been tracking goku since dragon ball and had no information on trunks so dr geron decided to enhance both 17 and 18 which is why trunks said that his presence might had made the androids stronger
Doesn’t really make since if he’s android 20 and he travelled with 19. He succeeded them in model number. It just doesn’t make since at all how they were that strong and even were formidable enough to take participate in the ToP.
@@itsyaboy490 your right dr geron/android 20 surpassed them in model number but he was build and design differently since he required to absorb energy while 17 and 18 and infinite energy and didn't require to absorb energy
I mean, when you have a decade long vendetta as Gero in wanting to destroy your enemy, it's simple to have that determination to make a break through in science to develop that advance technology.
It’s definitely odd. Gero was collecting data from battles on Earth. Not sure if he unknowingly collected data from Frieza and the party when they arrived. But also there is a point of him keeping up with all of Goku’s battles from Dragonball through Z before he went to namek. It’s possible Gero seen the progression and how fast Goku could develop and estimated it over a time period. Granted which makes sense because Gero was not ready for the SSJ form or the multipliers it gave or further training as a SSJ. I think Gero just estimated as far as he could into the future and just thought ahead.
I just thought the strongest person gero would have had data on tat that time would be ape vegeta if he decided to do a ball park of let's say like 100× that he roughly gets around namek saga ssj goku and we'll if he goes beyond 100× that then he gets stronger than feezia. So he's catering for hours growth and basing it off if the strongest power he's seen yet
Wow! This is absolutely mindblowing! We must have been ignorant or even dumb to think Dr. Gero was an ass pull Move! It’s not! The humans in DB have so much potential! Their Technology outclasses everything we know in our world! Damn!! Kudos man!!!💪🏽 too strong
The technological ability of humans relative to that of aliens is a good point. Unfortunately the Dragon Ball series has never been good with consistency. However, it's worth pointing out that Yamcha and Tiene became stronger than even the Ginyu force by training with King Kai, which could mean that humans have more potential even than saiyans, at least before the super saiyan transformation. That means they surpassed by far what Goku was able to achieve training with King Kai in presumably the same amount of time. Maybe turning humans into androids is thus the human equivalent of the super saiyan transformation. It unlocks the full human potential. In the end, we have to remember that the Dragon Ball universe is full of magic and other things that make no logical sense whatsoever. It seems to be more about telling a story with emotions.
Eventually in dragonball someone is so strong that when he or she farts the entire multiverse deletes itself completely. Oh and of course by "accident".
The real question is why he didn’t make king cold a android Instead of just getting his DNA I’m pretty sure king cold as a android would have been stronger then cell
I think you’re still underestimating alien tech. We’ve seen scouters, space pods, the elastic saiyan armor, healing tanks, etc. in universe not made on earth. Human tech is great but alien tech is equally as impressive. So all things considered, I think the tyrant Frieza should’ve still been stronger, but new arch = new enemies, so I get it
its equally impressive but different tech. It must be one of those times where most alien species are sufficiently evolved and friezas reign just happens to conquer and wipe out planets so they never reach their potential. The only reason earth did is because it wasnt wiped out by goku as it was supposed to. Were way past great filter but civiliations battlign each other must be filter 2.0
I have a question - if Gero made Cell, and artificially enhanced the once human Androids, and turned them into super cyborg soldiers of the Red Ribbon Army - why didn't Gero just design Cell to be perfect from the get go? Why not just do whatever he did to the Androids, to Cell from the get go, and skip the whole hunting and absorbing process?
I always thought that, but he probably planned cell after making 17 and 18, who he wanted to get rid of. Killing them would be a waste, so why not make it useful to his new creation
@Wu-Entai90 I just think Gero's whole Android project was a bad idea, because they all seemed destined to betray him, eventually. I don't get why he didn't just apply all of this android tech to himself, and take Goku out that way, or just build another Red Ribbon Army Power Jacket Mech Suit, but supe it up with all the infinite energy stuff, and make it as powerful as the androids and Cell, and just use that, instead.
But of course. The man made a hot as hell babe and a beautiful dude bro strong enough to beat the shit out of a super saiyan with ease. Gero is one smart ass old man. Man.
I think that in DBZ the Andriods may not have been as strong as a Super Saiyan at first but when Frieza came in the same ship with the technology that gave him cyber enhancements and made him stronger; Dr. Gero was able to reverse engineer some of that technology from the debris same how and add it to the Andriods.
Problem is when u see all these inventions are coming from only 3 humansbulma, brief, gero, that's the problem, and humans are not comparable to super Saiyans, goku was just holding his strength vs krilin
With the type of technology Dragon Ball's Earth's civilization have, they should at least be type 1 or type 2 specie on Kardashev Civilization Scale, but they are not.
@Lujack Shaw thats all pretty much just assumption, toriyama haven't told us everything about DB earth, but all the points you made get useless when you see that bulma's dad made a spaceship that traveled to another galaxy in a week, our galaxy is near 220 million light years wide and traveling near light speed would take infinite amount of energy, now imagine making an engine source that produced so much energy that the spaceship flew over hundreds of millions light years, not even sun's energy is enough for that. And don't forget that Bulma created a time machine, which travels through 4th dimensional space time continuum, and let me remind you that 3D infinity is finite quantity in 4D. So yes, they are seemingly 1 level civilization but that's just because other plants of their solar system is not habitable. My answer for why DB earth has not colonized the solar system or milky way galaxy is because people like Frieza and Beerus destroyed so many worlds for their profit that no other civilization was able to colonize to the level of earth and make communication with other worlds. But don't forget that under Frieza and Saiyans dominion alot of plants were purchased, colonized and destroyed.
I can live with the Androids being as strong they were, it doesn't shatter my immersion. But you can't take the examples you pulled from DBS even remotely seriously in my opinion. The argument "they have immense potential" makes no sense when you consider that Krillin was wounded by a bullet from a gun, and essentially turned around and went toe to toe with Goku. It's absolutely ridiculous. There's a limit to how much you can push a fictional world's internal logic after it's been established.
Goku was also shot by Frieza's servent in dbs because he was "off guard". I completely agree its very contradicting in terms of power scaling. They can destroy planets in a instant and deflect similar beams as well but a random bullet can hurt them.
Earth technology is just broken, simple as. It’s established in the first chapter of the series that Hoi-Poi capsules can just shrink an entire house into a light capsule than can be carried around with capsules that are also filled with super heavy things. Not to mention faster than light space travel, zero gravity chamber, and literal time travel. Unlike power levels, which are expected to make sense on at least a flimsy level, technology in DB has no such obligation. The universe changes its own rules and laws of physics to fit the technology. The androids are simply that effect crossed with ki and power levels. It’s kinda like how cartoon characters can break the rules of reality for whatever is funniest (such as that clip in super where Vegeta fights Arale from Dr. Slump). Arale can take a hit from Vegeta because gag comic character. Similarly, androids beat Frieza because technology.
@@saintfisuto1072 That was risky as f!ck too, because once the brain was removed from his human body - 19 was pretty much on his own to complete the process. What if he malfunctioned at that crucial moment? Would've easily been in the Top 3 of *"Epic Fails of Science"* . 🤣🤣🤣
As far as I know, Capsule Corp's tech is based on the tech provided by Jaco, which makes me think that human ability may be something of a super learning rather than superintelligence. Which forced by different situations, like a Bulma from the future much more pressured results in the creation of the technology of the time travel machine, or a Dr. Gero from the future who saw Goku fight with Frieza and King Cold, instead of a brief fight with Trunks, which led to more aggressive and apparently more destructive Androids, who killed Gero before building 19 and 20, and surely Cell of the original line would have developed being less powerful since it did not have DNA of a Goku who fought on Namek. Although I know that looking for the logic to an Anime is a bit absurd, I think that this explains better that exception of the beings of the earth, benefited at first with magical objects such as Roshi and Uranai Baba, the dragon balls created by the unnamed Namek, the arrival of Goku / Jaco, then Frieza's DNA, and so on. They have the power of luck xd
Ok so say...gero builds the andriods. Then cell. And the andriods don't kill him...then what?whats his end game? Does he put them back to sleep until cell is ready to absorb them? Would cell take orders from gero or does cell end up killing him? Say they 17 and 18 kill the z warios and goku and don't kill him. Does he cancel the cell project? Does he leave 17 and 18 in stasis? No no i think his ultimate goal wasn't to kill goku it was world domination and expansion. I think the natural progression of a military mind like his was to build the andriods and then build an army. With the z warriors dead and the worlds governments yielding to him he can now build more androids like 16. No longer in hiding and with much more ease. With 2 he owns the world. And with his life elongated earth becomes to small for him. Augmenting entire armies into walking nuclear weapons he expands into the stars and humanity enters an unprecedented golden age.
It'd be a repressive military dictator ship. And Gero didn't want an army. That's why he just made single units like the androids. So earth wouldn't be too small for far too long. And not including rebellions like we saw against black. He'd either be eliminating people and destroying most of the world. We don't know what he'd want after ruling. Maybe make more machines or experiments. The whole thing was probably just ego.
@@DSan-kl2yc i think single units could have been the limitation of resources in dbz because he was in hiding. He was building them in dragonball for the red ribbon ARMY after all. he build apparently 19 and was working on a 20th (not including 20th himself) and i know the movies aren't canon but imagine 17 doesn't kill him and then he has 4 androids (16,17,18,19) plus the 3 from the super 13 movie. You're suddenly looking at a guy thats building more then a few units. Maybe even rebuilding say a red ribbon army?. It's speculations but it's fun to think about a world where gero gets what he wants.
I think the ultimate goal was for Cell to become perfect then for Gero to implant his consciousness into Cell, giving him a powerful undying body that he could rule with.
@@wearblackclothes the army was gone so he was just carrying on. A long time ago I read that he saw the power of Goku beat an army so he switched strategies to creating one man armies. Not sure if that was canon or from a guidebook. But I don't think he was going to build an armt because he wouldn't have needed an Android army. Either with himself as an Android or 17-18, he could have taken over the world and just make a normal army for normal stuff. He might have carried on experimenting. But I figure cell is the ultimate end of his creative abilities..it took like 15 or so more years for cell to be finished. If anything he was downsizing androids since 16. And going more Bio.
@@wearblackclothes remember that he didn't used any android. Everything after 8 was scrapped. And even 16 was scrapped in the alternate future. 16 was never intended for us. In the main timeline he even decided to not use 17-18. Meaning he purposefully kept the number small and went with just 2 units.
@@Dilllonm Bulma had TWO examples of FTL tech to study. Kami's Namekian ship, Saiyan battle pods. Also, the big saucer ship Frieza uses seems to have similar tech to battle pods, but is also way faster. It could just be that Battle Pods are like using a motor scooter instead of a jumbo jet.
@@clericofchaos1 no it really is fine The stakes always need to he higher them the previous villain otherwise it's shitty writing to write a new villain that's weaker then the older one Power creep was always going to he an issue in Dragon Ball but it's okay like that Goku will always need to he the underdog and face more Powerful villains If he didn't do that it wouldn't be Dragon Ball
@@pingaspearce9403 and dragonball sucks. The enemies never needed to get stronger, Frieza should have been the limit. they needed to get smarter. Hell, I thought Moro would be a breath of fresh air because they were finally making use of magic and new fighting mechanics...then it just turned into another slugfest. If you want to actually challenge Goku you need to make him use the one muscle he never exercises, his brain.
At what point does the stakes just become nonsensical I mean more than it already has. Kid buu was already at galaxy level…anything beyond that just becomes “ok next arc, bring in the next new bad guy” and repeat
I never thought it was much of a stretch. Bulma as a teen was able to make a dragon ball radar that pin pointed the locations of dragon balls. The red ribbon army and even Frieza's army couldn't even do that. And Gero himself was a super genius among other scientists and made things that even Bulma and her dad couldn't comprehend at first. Not to mention, Gero studied super powered beings constantly for years. It wouldn't be too much for him to come up with some breakthrough like artificial ki which he gave to 17 and 18 and it certainly wouldn't be much of a stretch for him to make someone like Cell, who was created from the cells of the greatest fighters, including Frieza's.
Easy, he made the androids train for 3 days out doing Frieza's 0 days of training.
17 still won the ToP and it was the 1st one the damage Jiren
Based
@@johnnysmith92 tearing jiren's outfit doesnt do crap and 17 only one because the rest sacrificed themselves lol
@@Nemo-ew2hd he was also the only one to make that wish to save everyone else, otherwise everyone would've been erased anyway.
Sacrifcing the cruise for his family (lol), trying to get back to look after the wildlife refuge, and embracing the 'Human' way of sacrificing themselves by attempting it himself when he shielded them from Jiren's super blast. He just somehow survived. 17 is a hero. 🦎
@@meaningfulmindfulness15 they were planning 17's "sacrifice" to be a fraud, so jiren could get knocked out, goku was gonna wish back the universes anyway
By sheer coincidence, a scientist made cyborgs that were more powerful than the Alien emperor who rule the universe. They just happen to came right after the Heroes defeated the Alien emperor.
They actually came 4 years after. 3 after freeza came to earth. And Gero had spies on freeza. But I get your point.
Gero also made a predictive assessment if Goku's strength and growth so they were really designed to outperform Goku after he showed his strength increase during the Saiyan fight.
@@DSan-kl2yc What spies on Frieza?
@@DominikSobolewski dr gero had robots spying on goku and the rest up until goku became a super sayian
@@hentodev7205 Nope. Gero said he stopped collecting data after Saiyan Saga, which he clearly states.
@@DominikSobolewski
And he CLEARY uses Freezas and King Colds Dna to make Cell. So he knew of them.
Because Gero is Built Different (Literally)
Very literally
That part 😂
😏 I so want to post that rising glass gif to you on this post!
Damn lol
@@Primo0897 well played
The real question is scope. Humans can look to stars and imagine going there. The strength frieza shown during the namek saga was unfathomable. If goku and piccolo were the examples, then radditz should have been the goal for the androids. Frieza was hundreds of millions times more powerful than the strongest being gero had ever seen. That's like designing a bomb to destroy the universe after seeing gun powder.
i remember the battle against vegeta was the last fight gero mentioned recording, but gero also mentioned that he wasn't interested in monitoring goku anymore because he would be able to predict goku's power increases. gero knew that the saiyans wouldn't be goku's power ceiling. it's more like seeing the progression from gunpowder to nuclear bomb then designing an antimatter bomb in response.
@@Vapor817 Yeah exactly. Gero had already tried to make an android to defeat Goku. He's not shooting for "equal to Goku's current power" he's shooting for what he expects Goku to become later... and he needs to double THAT in order to be certain he can kill Goku. Yeah, that's a tall order, and is pretty ridiculous to think about, but it's the goal he had.
Hold on though strength wise you’re right but fundamentally what gives them power is the same. U can see a brick fall or a titanic ship fall but see the same gravity
Deeep
@poppyface
Even with this considered, Gero himself admits to never having anticipated something like the Super Saiyan transformation, so why would he bother attempting to design androids that powerful? This isn't even taking into account the nonsensical leaps in power gains that Goku recieved on Namek to begin with (from 90,000 to 3,000,000 in one fight). How could anyone predict something so absurd? Add to that the SSJ form, which apparently multiplies Goku's already ridiculous strength by fifty times. If Gero's androids managed to be waaay stronger than even all that, the original point still stands - it is overkill to the extreme and makes no sense from a logical standpoint.
Of course, we all know the real reason why the androids are so strong - because Toriyama, creative as he may be, puts little extended thought into his story concepts and simply splats out the first thing that comes to his mind without bothering to make sure everything makes sense with his prior established narrative. This is why after all these years, it is the fans who have to argue amongst themselves, coming up with fan-theories to explain away the inconsistencies in Toriyama's writing.
I think the problem feels so glaring because it defies what TVTropes calls the “Sorting Algorithm of Evil”. Where every villain is a bigger threat than the one that came before.
1-Pilaf was a silly manchild who had 2 henchmen under him.
2-The Red Ribbon Army was a powerful military bent on world domination.
3-King Piccolo was the greatest evil the world had ever known. And now he’s back to plague the Earth once again. When Goku defeats Piccolo Jr he becomes the strongest being on Earth. The next logical step is to introduce threats beyond planet Earth.
4-The reason Goku was so strong was because he was a member of a powerful race of space warriors. Raditz was a being from the same planet that Goku is from and has the same abilities but even greater power.
5-It turns out Goku and his brother were both weaklings among their people and Earth’s heroes must now face the elite of the Saiyan race. Particularly, Vegeta, the mightiest Saiyan of all.
6-The adventure leaves planet Earth and enters the very stars as our heroes must now face an intergalactic empire made up of the universes strongest fighters; led by the same invincible tyrant that annihilated the Saiyans and rules the universe. This tyrant can only be defeated by fulfilling an ancient alien prophecy.
7-The heroes must change their fate by defeating 2 cybernetically enhanced humans created by a scientist who worked for an organization that Goku already defeated when he was a kid.
You can kinda see how the Androids might feel out of place to some people.
Exactly, that's why the buu saga is the worst because after cell there was literally no where left to go especially with goku dead and toriyama had to make up all kinds of stuff just to keep the story going where as before he was just kind of adding on to what was already there
It's funny also because what it implies is that the heroes were impossibly lucky with the order the villains showed up. If you switch any of them around, any at all, say the saiyans show up before King Piccolo or Buu gets revived during the Namek arc, then everyone would've died.
@@armathyx no cuz then Goku would achieve some new form
I really wish Toriyama would have stuck with his ki absorbtion direction for the androids, aside from being more interesting then "theyr'e just generically stronger/faster and don't tire", it would have given a logical explanation for the threat. Since the androids are enhanced by the ki they steal, the very reason the androids were so powerful was BECAUSE the Z fighters were so powerful, not inspite of it, and the fact that the Z fighters trained thanks to trunks in this time line not only didn't help, but actually made things worse, since upon absorbing their training enhanced ki, they just became even stronger still then they would have been if the heroes didn't train, the ultimate difference making in the time line not being how strong any of the characters were, but new techniques they learned in the time gap that allow them to combat the power level neutralizing ki absorbtion in creative ways. Heck, it could have brought back the old characters to relevance, a straight beam attack is useless, but Yamcha has created a Sou-Ki-Dama, a fully controllable miniature spirt bomb that he can navigate around the absorption points, or whatever just for a random possibility.
If he stuck with that, we wouldn't even be asking this question honestly. The androids would functionally be a secret weapon for whoever's side they're on nust by merit of being able to be bolstered by however strong Goku is. But the way it played out....yeah bs
the problem with that more sharpens towards fan preferences, while the concept would be nice as most interviews with Toriyama elaborate he's fully aware of what his fans like and don't like and an anti-meta ability like ki absorption probably wasn't selling well which is why it and the original androids got cut for better or for worse; but to be honest I like 16, 17, &, 18 I even think cells movie monster nature and complete amalgamation of the z fighters was cool, I guess you could say it's preference though. the idea would be good to explore now all be it the manga tried and butched the results so I'm of the opinion execution is better then concept with anti-meta abilitys.
@@chronic-joker This got touched on in the second Cooler movie. After Cooler's army of robot Coolers beats Goku and Vegeta they overload him by forcing him to absorb all their energy at once, thus causing him to explode.
Super 17 from GT was the perfect example
@@tdsamedi777 yeah, he was a really scary opponent for Goku. Also.... apparently Super 17 only died because of 18 causing the good and evil version of 17 to struggle for control.
Imagine all the great things Gero could've done if he was a good guy
That's the point, he would be to overpowered of a character to be a hero😂😂
I mean Bulma and his father are already exactly like that... Genius Do gooders.
There is nothing Good or Bad with Gero. He was a scientist who was funded by the "Red Ribbon Army." It is this organization that was notorious for criminal activities. Even then they encountered Goku only because the former wanted Dragon balls and Bulma was able to locate them. As far as Gero is considered, Goku destroyed his company, his family and his livelihood. So he went dark and created Androids and the Cell to kill Goku for his revenge.
@@er.esakkim8781 he destroyed an entire city killing countless civilians
That applies for literally every villain though.... imagine if original broly joined the team... imagine if thanos joined avengers, imagine all the great things they could do for good...
Dr. Gero was a hero, even tho he died like a b****. that dude literally created an Android that saved the entire Multiverse.
The same guy that offed him was the guy that saved reality.
yeah, my man gero sacrificed himself to save the universe😢
or in other timelines completely fucked up the world for fun
Actually the androids were kidnapped by gero when they were human and gero modified them their true names are android 18=lazuli android 17=lapis
And the strongest Android of them all is his wife lol (Android 21).
Dr. Gero was able to create many things but his greatest achievement was making Krillen win for once.
My boy Krillen needed a W
To be fair, Krillin would still probably be in love with 18 even if she remained human and was never kidnapped and experimented on.
To be honest, even Gero creating a computer that was able to finish his work is incredible.
For me it's not even a question of HOW he made such powerful androids, but WHY? Even if he extrapolated an increase in Goku's strength based on when he last observed him (Saiyan Saga), there's no way he should have predicted super saiyan. Based on what he knew, his androids should have been like using a nuke to kill a mouse.
And then to conquer the world
A single 12 year old child destroyed a powerful military force that was capable of ruling the world, if I was Gero I'd go overboard with the power level of the androids too.
Because it's Goku. He knew it was very possible that Goku would increase his strength as he got older, and watching kid Goku go from destroying an army to killing the demon king solidified his point.
His computer could've also made some predictions as well
Well we know for a fact he didn't predict super Saiyan. That's why the last batch of androids were UNDERpowered. Gero didn't want something as strong as Goku but stronger.
Maybe he got carried away with his experiments and that's why he purposefully made the original androids weaker in the alternate future timeline. Especially after Goku died.
Gero would also have witnessed Goku lose and then comeback stronger or been aware of it twice. With tao Pai Pai maybe, and against piccolo for sure.
So he made them strong enough to account for a power boost from Goku in case Goku got away.
Gero himself brings up that he was closely calculating and monitoring the prowess of Goku and the Dragon Team, and wanted to ensure he got ahead of where they could reach. He wanted his plans to go without a hitch, so he likely made use of every possible tool and bioengineering at his disposal to get it right from the getgo because he likely expected his nemesis' survival would only come back to haunt him.
That said, he didn't really overshoot it _that_ much. Keep in mind that Gero himself got his arm chopped off by Piccolo pre-Kami, and so he and 19 were within the destructive capabilities of most of the Dragon Team if they got jumped on outright with their better attacks rather than the surprise attacks and genocide they pulled off in public; When he saw what Goku and Vegeta were capable of as SS, he still felt he was strong enough to handle them, but with 19 gone, vastly outnumbered, and with an arm chopped off, he was forced to rely on the biodroid duo he was likely saving as a last resort because he was quickly losing ground. As for Cell himself, that was the computer working in Gero's place to continue to manufacture the bioweapon with added details from Frieza and King Cold, two extremely powerful beings that showed up with plenty of time for that project to "perfect" Cell's full potential.
Are we going to mention Dr. Gero is a God? He gave Cell a soul to go to hell.
:3
@@thatBigfuu no he absorbed 17 and 18 who were human,although he spit 18 out, 17 was still absorbed when he died.
@@dreamkiller898 OK and?
aye, that part is what makes no sense to me haha
@@maybe6213 so he absorbed a soul therefore gaining his own.
I think it, ultimately, boils down to "He wanted to be absolutely certain Goku would die."
Having examined the whole of the Saiyan saga, he realized the explosive, almost exponential growth of Goku in the intervening year of his death. He also saw the Oozaru form for the first time, and realized it offered a ten times increase in power...and it's also possible he saw the Zenkai boost. We also know he worked heavily in DNA, so he could have seen the potential of further massive growth.
While I doubt he saw something that would indicate the Super Saiyan transformation, he wanted to be ABSOLUTELY FUCKING SURE Goku was going to die no matter what. All his androids up to that point wouldn't have even scratched Vegeta, so he went for as much power and capablility as possible.
Except, he went too far. 13, 14, and 15 just wouldn't have been able to completely, absolutely outclass his maximum estimated growth. At this point, he had already created the power source of the androids, an infinite source of energy, but they couldn't make full use of it.
So he built 16, who more than exceeded his wildest calculations. But, in his rush for power, he realized that 16 was too powerful, and sacrificed many limiters for that power to work properly, namely most of the behavior modifications. He couldn't even assume that 16 would TRY to kill Goku due to those flaws. (Also, apparently he was based on his son so...It's really up in the air.)
He determined that utilizing this engine with pure mechanics just wouldn't work. This wouldn't give him something that was both strong enough to kill Goku, and completely loyal to him to ensure they would try.
So, he went the Cyborg route. He kidnapped the twins who would later be 17 and 18, wiped their minds, and started to put all his Android knowledge into making them the perfect weapons.
However, this method was a complete failure in terms of his goals. He had, successfully, turned them and made them more than capable of killing Goku's greatest projected power with ease...but there was even LESS loyalty, and they were still too unrestricted for him to control. The infinite power engine just wasn't going to work.
So, back to the drawing board. He returned to the mechanical side of things, and came across the idea of surpassing any projected growth by absorbing it. A method that would keep the Android (comparatively) weaker, but would still be able to kill the Z-fighters without disabling the behavior limitations. Thus, he built 19 with the absorption engine in place. And he worked perfectly! Loyal, powerful, and more than enough to kill Goku by his predictions.
But he still wanted to be certain, and one Android of 19's power may be overwhelmed by a combined force of Goku and Vegeta. So, using the knowledge gained from 17 and 18's conversion, he converted HIMSELF using his computer. But, the Infinite Engine was too risky without his personal touch, so he became an absorption model like 19.
Now, we know how it all goes from there.
I was stated he had the idea and started creating Cell before the Androids. Realizing it would take too long to create Cell he turned to the Androids instead. They were needed anyway for Cell. They were designed to also become part of Cell. His ultimate biological machine. Cell doesn't have gears but the perfect bend of organs making him farther superior not to mention the combined skills and biology of the greatest life forms alive unto his desgin. Dr. Gero failed again because Cell had too much emotion just like all of his other Androids. Cell was prideful and it left too much opportunity for his opponent to win. I don't Gero realized Cell might Inherit too much personality from the stolen cells to create him
@@sirsir9665well Gero’s computer oversaw the genetic engineering of Cell so I think any of the flaws in his personality resulting from that can I think be more down to the computer’s decisions about what DNA would be more dominant, which also seems to change at each ‘stage’/form.
@@shiftfire4511 Amazing breakdown!
The Android Saga was a hugely missed opportunity and a prime example of how Toriyama arguably isn't that great of a story writer, in my opinion.
Goku had far outclassed everyone when he achieved his Super Saiyan form. Putting him out of the fight with the heart virus was a great idea. The other characters would need to rise up to combat the new threat (would have made narrative sense for the androids to be weaker than Frieza). Through the tribulations and training, everyone could have closed the gap a little to catch up to Goku and remain relevant.
But perhaps coolest of all, Vegeta could have had a huge development arc, initially fighting the androids out of pride, but then achieved Super Saiyan in order to save his son as well as the earth. (Poetic, since he'd tried to destroy it).
Oh, and Kami's sacrifice would have actually meant something. And it would have been so dang badass to see the Saiyans alongside Piccolo battling Cell together. It's frustrating to me how much better written the series could've been...
To be fair, if Kami and Piccolo never fused, then they never would have gotten the information they needed to counter Cell's rampage because even at that point, none of the Z-fighters were anywhere close to strong enough to fight him. He likely would have just kept absorbing humans and by the time the Zfighters showed up to fight him he would have just roflstomped them all. The thing about Toriyama that people don't give him credit for is that he was VERY good at not breaking the core logic/physics of the series, no matter what it meant for the story.
Toriyama's consistency is also what people hated about Gohan....they wanted Toriyama to make him the star of the manga, but Toriyama (who WROTE Gohan) knew that Gohan would literally never be able to replace Goku because Gohan's canon motivations and personality would have NEVER made him a warrior.
Same with Piccolo. Even with that power boost and ESPECIALLY after the fusion, Piccolo was no longer a warrior. He would now take up the same position Kami did...and over time, Goku would have inevitably surpassed him again.
@@RemiusTheAwesome I'm actually cool with everything you said. I thought the Kami-Piccolo fusion was awesome, but it was a shame Piccolo's strength meant nothing after a couple episodes. Toriyama really did him dirty.
I don't hate the Buu Saga as much as a lot of people do. I think that if The Cell Saga wrapped up with everyone defeating the big bad almost the way it happened, that would have been super cool.
Goku being the hero against Buu, I'm fine with that. :)
@@stormrhode2330 i respect Your opinion but the point you mentioned makes no sense whatsoever...
The z fighters closing the Gap even a little would've been a terrible writing
Tien / Yamcha / Krilin / can never do such thing in one arc ... Goku trained his ass off both before fighting vegeta / after fighting vegeta/ had a massive zenkai boost so Goku is already in a league of his own in comparison with the others
And goku hasn't aquired The legendary ssj yet
If somehow they managed to " level up " the arc would end before it has even started
Every z fighters played and extremely Great role in the android and cell saga especially Picolo daimao who fused with kami ( i mean that's one hell of a development ).
And everyone know that cell saga was all about developing gohan
+ Vegeta Indeed got the greatest development and even in a far better way ( Majin vegeta and goku fight) it Just can't get better for Vegeta character
So the android and cell saga despite some flaws here and there it still great writing Wise
And again i totally respect Your opinion
Piccolo was already stronger than Frieza in his 2nd form and Gohan could get close with his rage boost.
So really, you would have to removes half the cast for the human fighters to be relevant
Just stop storm. You do not know better than the creator of the show. Deal with it.
The big question is how did he build himself into an android
Most likely he created other bots to make him
@Juan Vasquez then if that’s the case he made a poor decision and make android 19 make him like him where if he was smart enough he would’ve choose to make himself like android 17and 18
@@Jason-kg8fx because infinite energy models are harder to control. He considered 8-18 all failures and 19 was the only success.
well easy.
he build a robot (probably 19) with the hability to perform cyborg surgery on him.
@@joshgroban5291 They were harder to control because they kept their own personality. Since he would be making himself into one, he'd want to keep his own personality, so he really should have made himself like them. The only real explanation of why he didn't is it was extremely hard to make that level of tech and he couldn't somehow do it a third time. Maybe the energy source took too much resources to make and he wouldn't have been able to do another one in his lifetime.
I've always wonder why did Doctor Gero make 17 and 18 stronger than himself.
Yeah he didn't think a lot through
Real answer is because Toriyama’s editor made him make 17 and 18 since he thought that 19 looked stupid. In universe idk
@@sweep_swoop yeah
@@sweep_swoop I think an old man and a mime aren’t as scary as two twin teenagers (which admittedly wasn’t as scary either because he had to make Cell too because of the Editor)
17/18 probably built on really experimental tech that wasn't likely to work. He used safe augmentation on himself.
I think the Mecha Freiza arc was also a way to ease us into believing powerful androids were possible in the dbz universe.
Dr gero build this android in a cave with a box of scraps
Not only that but one Android he created eventually went on to gain God Tier strength or at the very least close to it with no wishes, no training with Gods, no zenkai boosts nothing. 17 is pretty insane when you think about it lol
Or Super Scaling sucks
@@iceinmehveins6487 I mean you're not wrong, there are alot of cases you can argue and I can even see the other side of the aisle with 17 but he's the only one I can buy being so powerful. It makes me wonder what the hell he was doing during the Buu saga though, if he progressed as well as guys like Goku and Vegeta he sure as shit could've jumped in that fight.
Right.
@@lunchbox7337ify He was protecting the island.
@@Salik96 ranging the sh*t out of that park
Him being a rival to the briefs in intelligence is why and a calculator.
A rival? Briefs invented a time travel device which spawned multiple timeliness across the omniverse. Gero's creations have incredible potential but I wouldn't put them on the same level as time travel.
@@nebulouscalamity6338 that was future bulma though, She's on a whole other level than her dad and her current self coupd ever hope to be
@@rockk9753 ah yeah, future Bulma trading up with some other scientists could make for an interesting story. Future Bulma building time traveling androids that could go to future timelines to get upgrades for example.
that doesn't explain everything
When you finally have your life questions answered by a youtuber
I felt like the Androids were way overpowered. It was Shocking to me as a kid watching DBZ that there was that big of a power difference between Frieza and Cell honestly.
I can see Cell being stronger than Frieza due to his cells are in cell lol if that makes sense. 17 and 18 is awful writing in my opinion I have been saying this since the 90s. I love cell but the androids are garbage.
@@CrazyLocoInsane1 That’s hilarious, since we only got Cell because of Toriyamas Editor saying the androids were boring and to come up with something more, which is how cell came to be, even admitting the androids were supposed to be the big bad instead of cell.
And now Frieza is 50 x stronger than Cell, but I wonder if Cell trained like Frieza did, he would probably be 100 x stronger.
@@RuiLuz probably not, since being a prodigy is in the mind, not the cells
@@KhronosTrigger Enh in the end that made for a GREAT story though.
That point you raised at the end is why Baby is a great villain. Despite Dr. Myuu basically being a palette swap Gero with sunglasses. The Tuffles made a good choice for an enemy. They'd already been introduced early in DBZ and were the Sins of the Saiyans. Baby was also the last Tuffle King fused with the machine mutant parasite.
He was the best part of GT. Better than the Shadolw Dragon arc IMO
@@lancekemal8989 The idea behind the Shadow Dragon arc is great, the execution did not live up to the potential.
@@Sorain1 It wasn't perfect, but it got better over time. Only half the dragons being cool was a big flaw.
Over the years, I had always imagined that since 16, 17 and 18 all had nukes installed within them, then, perhaps their infinite energy supply came from them being fitted with some sort of nanoscale reactors. They took a long time to burn out and (with the right resources and preparations) could be maintained/replaced/recharged somehow. The Androids strongly reminded me of the fleshbound, endoskeletal Terminator models(Which can repair themselves) and I figured Gero likely would have left behind detailed files in one of his many bases on how to repair specific models in the case of an emergency.
@@JohnDoe-dv6zb 17 and 18 are cyborgs
I always found it absurd that A human from earth built a couple of Androids who were indefinitely stronger than an alien tyrant with multiple transformations. Toriyama just needed to process the plot due to popularity
But the mutant aliens and monkey men shooting lazers out of their hands is cool with you?
@@milowolfface9392 yes, but not earthling robots that can surpass mutant aliens just out of the blue
Em you do realize ki is basically a supernatural element as spirts and magic right while the androids are based on science fiction. I don’t know about you but I think the androids make more sense than the concept of ki. Your logic doesn’t really have a lot of sense and in all honestly with how the sayians physical abilities work with getting stronger after ever fight frieza should have never been able to kill there race.
@@milowolfface9392 what kinda metal is strong enough to withstand a Power Level of several millions tho
Like,10.000 is enough to blow up a planet
@@bosknight7837
Kachin: the strongest known metal in the Dragon Ball Z world?
The secret is plot convenience lmao. Seriously though he had brains and serious tech.
Bro he didn't though, he was working alone in damp cave with limited resources.
I think I would have been better if dr gero had a spie in capsule corp that was stealing alien tech and capsule tech to give it to him.
@@nani4249 how did he have limited resources though bro? Cause that cave in the episode where he wakes the androids up he had a full size lab in there including a fucking supercomputer and tanks to grow all 5 them, including Cell in he was in the basement that was the size of the lab upstairs.
@@LordMalice6d9 yeah, make it more crazy that Dr gero is only using technology from earth to make the androids that are all stronger than king cold and mecha Frieza combined
@@LordMalice6d9 lol that's called the Toriyama Ass pull special 😂😂😂
@@LordMalice6d9 I don't know why you idiots don't understand. Did you not watch the video?
Nanomachines, son. Seriously, that's how.
Let’s not forget the fact that Gero was clearly underprepared for his fight with Goku, since he had no idea what happened on Namek, and therefore did NOT know who Frieza was or what Super Saiyan is.
And also, 17 and 18 did not know what Super Saiyan was either, and The Z-Fighters trained vigorously for three years in preparation for them. BUT STILL 17 and 18 kicked their asses, and Trunks stated that present 17 and 18 were stronger than their future variants 😲😲, despite warning them.
How did pirates create a robot 300 years ago that could fight goku and krillin?
Asking the real questions
Better question: If Trunks went further back in time, would he be able to convince Dr. Gero not to create the androids and cyborgs?
No
Gero was too obsessed with avenging his son and the RRA to move on with his life. Its a shame, since his genius could have done so much good and he could have become as rich as Dr Briefs
He coulda just sliced him up but that would not be a very interesting Saga
Yes, the same way he convinced Frieza to not destroy earth
He didn’t know who Dr. gero was tho. In trunks timeline he only met android 17 and 18. So trunks didn’t who created them at that time
Imagine if Gero used Broly to convert into a Saiyadroid.
He did, it's a horrible movie called Bio Broly
@@kungfuhusler he did it in raging blast
@@kungfuhusler That wasn't Gero, that was Dr. Collie and his assistant Nain.
Game over!
@@danielhenry4365 OH MY GOD THAT WOULD BE GREAT AND TERRIBLE 😞
I stopped asking rational questions about DBZ along time ago... Like they coexist with dinosaurs
I remember when they summoned the Dragon in the middle of West City and none of the inhabitants even cared xD.
Regenerative bubblegum is a threat to gods
@@stephano2996 Attention everybody! Godzirra Godzirra. Godzirra Godzirra Godzirra. Godzirra.
I think Gero went in the booth and dropped some Androids. He was freestyling these ideas.😂💡
Imagine hating on someone so much you created beings that are stronger than a space dictator
For me, the only explanation is that gero was able to use the cells from the z fighters and somehow in time, enhance them. Sort of like how a.i. learns/trains itself.
That makes... too much sense. Especially since that makes 17 being so strong now more palatable.
@@jamainegardner4193 think about geros computers like the hyperbolic time chamber 😄
But training all the cells of the z fighters
@@DaveyBackSilvers no thats stupid, obviously saiyan flesh is more durable than steel. I think your missing the point.
@@cdeezy2718 I don't think that's what he meant........
Next time on Laughingstock Media: how did Doctor Gero turn himself into an android? 🤯
he took out his brain and put it in an android duh
The easy part was getting the brain out, but the hard part was getting the brain out. (Lifts wrench and laughs maniacally)
@@ryanambsdorf2859 probably 19 did it in the normal timeline, in Trunks timeline he probably had some servant robot do it. would explain how he got much done though, he put himself in a robot body, wouldn't need to eat and sleep.
@@FGame2star he didn't do it in Trunks timeline. I think 17 and 18 killed him before that even happened
@@FGame2star actually, the anime shows him getting killed as an Android, but i have no idea if the manga shows the same thing, or if they even show him getting killed
I find it funny you're trying to pass all of Bulma and Dr Brief achievements as humanity as a whole. When really they are freaking geniuses without comparison. It's the same as saying that all saiyans have the power to destroy the universe based solely on the achievements of Goku and Vegeta
Exactly. Dr.Briefs alone invented capsules (which is why they are rich), the gravity chamber, Goku's spaceship to Namek, repaired 16 within days, etc. These aren't even counting Bulma's sole accomplishments.
Lol I never thought of it like that but now that I think about it 😂😂
He also used super as examples of humans being capable to be more powerful than frieza....a show that came out many years later. However the complaints about the androids being more powerful than frieza where there from day one, so he should have used example from before the android arc to prove his point. That's like saying Jiren didn't get his powers from nowhere because 20 years from now there will be an arc where we see his species have always been this strong.
The idea is great content material but the video itself was sloppy with poor reasoning.
Exactly him using two geniuses to describe humanity as whole in terms of tech dbz considered is dumb, not everybody is that smart lol.
Gero is probably smarter than Dr. Briefs or Bulma
>Loses his military contract job cuz of a kid
>Invents perpetual energy
>Could easily sell this technology, revolutionize human society, & retire
>"Naw, fuck that kid."
>Puts it into his robots who don't obey him
Was thinking this same thing XD, intelligence is useless without common sense
What always used to bug me wasn't so much that Gero could create the androids, but that no one else did. There was no society as technologically advanced as Earth in all the years that King Cold and Frieza were conquering planets that could create this tech, but Gero could? You'd think if it were possible to create machines that could so substantially dwarf Frieza in power, someone would have done it.
But then someone said to me that there must be several warrior races besides the saiyans and among all of them, only Goku managed to overpower Frieza. Maybe, just as this was the unique power of Goku, this was also the unique genius of Gero. That satisfied me.
I think one of the issues a lot of people have is the jump in scale. Gero with the backing of the entire Red Ribbon Army and tons of help and funding created androids beat up by a child Goku with a power level of 100 or so. Next outing he has androids he built on his own in secret with no outside funding or help with a power level thousands of times stronger than anything he had seen up to that point.
0:10 dr wily, is that you ?
@@huybv1998 Dr guily
Doctor Gero spied on Goku long enough to see his growth potential. Therefore he calculated how strong the androids needed to be, he kept making more so he could control them. The androids being stronger then Frieza makes sense because they were made for Goku.
But Frieza was stronger than Goku at the time of Gero’s data. He didn’t even know of Super Saiyan, nor Frieza, so how would he have planned for it? Gero was only expecting Kaioken.
Yeah but how did he make them that powerful?
@@Anytyme06 Plot
That’s the only way.
@@ViltrumiteIsRite99 yes but he knew Goku would’ve found some stronger level and make androids that far surpass that
@@MustacheDLuffy Gero being shocked by Super Saiyan, while him & his droids get destroyed proves that wrong.
If humanity has technology like that, it doesn't make sense to rely on the Z fighters all the time. They could just invent weapons to wreck the next threat that appears lol
You give Frieza 10 years worth of training and he gets a new form. If You Give Dr. Gero 10 years to develop An Android he most definitely can create a model on the level of Grand Priest or at least A God Of Destruction!!!!!
To me it sounds like Toriyama hadn't prepared for a scenario where DBZ continued after the Frieza saga, so he had to come up with a dumb idea which he thought was okay 'because comic book logic' and decided he'd just have it loosely tie in with earlier established canon.
Having Cell be stronger than all the other warriors would actually make sense to me.
I think it might've made more sense power wise if they came before the saiyan saga. How do modified humans with materials(presumably from earth) be able to surpass a guy that casually destroys planets like popping fireworks?
I get the whole "sum is greater than the parts" thing but yeah, Im glad you did this video. Something that has stood out to me
Em ki does not make sense as a concept so if anything the androids power actually makes sense by default since there technology based not supernaturally based.
1:39
Capsule Corp didn't have faster-than-light space travel from the beginning. It was only thanks to reverse engineering Goku's old saiyan space pod that Dr. Briefs was able to develop the technology. At the start of the Namek Saga, Bulma points out that getting to Namek using Capsule Corp's existing tech would take more than 4,000 years one-way.
Akira Toriyama planned on DBZ ending when Goku turns Super Saiyan and kills Frieza. The show became alot more popular then he expected, and fans wanted more. So he basically never planned on stronger characters.
wrong airka siad he never plend on ending ti with frieza so your wrong
@@ssjgotenks2009 I'm wrong? Thought for sure I read that in one of his interview's.
They weren’t stronger that frieza or the Z fighters. It’s just the capabilities the Dr. Created them with.
Impenetrable force fields,
A body that would never run out of stamina / Ki.
And Technology no one had ever faced before.
I mean frieza’s technology wasn’t even that advanced yet.
Plus that’s how Toriama wanted it to go 😅 🤷🏻
Gero had friezas cells... He knew how powerful the androids needed to be. Imagine how strong 16 would have been had he not been released sooner than he was supposed to be.
Clearly Gero knew about the ultimate form of humans and tapped into that 100% potential through augmentation. Lol
The androids have perpetual energy. Giving them free/unlimited energy and in theory, unlimited stamina
still makes no sense for them to be stronger then frieza
The Androids don’t make ANY sense. There’s NO way Dr.Gero could’ve predicted Goku’s power boost on Namek. He went from like 120,000 to 3,000,000 base form. Then, Super Saiyan increased that by 50x. Let’s say 17 and 18 are around 3,000,000 each and Goku didn’t go to Namek, he would be around 150,000. Think about it..
Goku: 150,000
17: 3,000,000
18: 3,000,000
And both of them don’t tire. Now only is it utterly stupid that Gero could create something that’s like thousands of times stronger than anything he ever saw, but then you have 17 who can fight in the Tournament of Power in Super.
These Androids created to kill Goku are like if you used a Nuke to kill a mouse.
Imagine if dr gero had worked on mecha frieza, turning him into an alien android, imagine how powerful he would be
something scary to think of is that gero created the androids in his secret lab with very limited resources so imagine what Bulma could do if given enough schematics and time
Good thing that in the present time 17 and 18 are living great lives using their powers for good. Android 16 should be greatly partially credited for that change. Krillen falling for 18 and vice versa also helped.
I really don't think it's a problem that the androids were stronger than Freeza. The only thing that makes it a problem is Toriyama's shortsightedness as he decided that Freeza is the strongest in the universe. The Dragon Team had just ventured out into space and they've already encountered the strongest in the universe? Why couldn't Freeza have just been a strong guy among a universe full of strong guys? Toriyama fetishizes the idea of someone being the strongest, so when someone even stronger comes along afterwards, everyone calls bullshit on it when it didn't have to be a problem in the first place if it were never stated that Freeza was the strongest.
Well said, I 100% agree
Maybe Frieza just thought he was the strongest in the universe... after all, Majin Buu, Beerus, and Moro exist.
@@johnquach8821 he was aware of buu and beerus existence tho so he wouldn’t just throw around “strongest in the universe”. That’s just showing how toriyama didn’t think about half the things we writes about til last minute. If the idea of buu or beerus existed during the frieza saga, some sort of foreshadowing or even a small mention would have been good. Not hating on toriyama tho that’s just how he tends to write dragon ball
King Cold was stronger then Freeza. Super retconned it to were the gods and kais were only scared of his potential anyway.
Exactly, honestly just a couple tiny rewrites would fix a lot of shit.
Laughing stock. What is your personal favorite arc in all of dragon ball?
The Cell Saga.
@@LSMMIKE mine is the saiyan saga.
mine is the Android saga obviously :)
Buu saga
Frieza saga it was peak. So many fights, so many villains, vegetas backstory, super saiyan and an awesome planet blowing up in the background thr stakes we're to high. Frieza always felt like the MAIN boss.
IMO, a good way to make the Android Saga work better would have been for Goku to disappear after Frieza Saga for a while. Everyone thinks he's dead when the planet blows up (and Frieza doesn't randomly show up later). That way, everyone left in the story is weaker and we can have Dr. Gero showing up with his Androids who, while not actually stronger than Frieza, are strong enough to fight against the rest of the cast. Then we can have a legacy-based story where Gohan has to fight against one of his dad's old enemies when he was a kid and learn to fight for himself. Then maybe later on, we get signs that Goku might have survived and maybe he can return at the end of the arc to find his son grown and self-sufficient. Maybe Gohan can unlock SS during the end fight against the Androids, showing he has potential to outpower his dad, which was something they teased at one point, but then shelved. IDK just spitballing here.
Humans are so good, they couldn't beat King Piccolo.
Simple; Gero calculated the power that he believed Goku had, and then aimed higher.
Remember that the last power level measured on Earth was 18,000.
How on earth did he go from that to a power level in the millions?
@@lisboah the highest measured was 32000 (Low balling Goku's 8000+ to 8000, Kaioken 4x multiplier)
But let's do the math; Goku had a resting power level of 416. We'llhigh ball it to 500 for the sake of our calculations.
In the year he was dead, Goku jumped from 500 to 8000 (lowballed as it's a concrete number)
The rate of multiplying his power is thus at minimum 16 each year.
There were 4 years between Freeza and the Androids (1 year when Trunks arrived, 3 years of training for the Androids)
8000x16x16x16x16= 524,288,000.
And that's *without* accounting for a minimum of a Kaioken 4x multiplier; which would set the power level to 2.1 billion.
And given the rules of power levels, where to overwhelm, you need to double that. So 4.2 billion, rounded up
I’d imagine Earth is considered a back water planet both because of how naturally weak the humans are (even though the Human Z-Fighters have all but surpassed your average Saiyan Warrior at this point) plus the fact that while they are capable of FTL travel they haven’t actually colonized any other planet.
What’s crazy to me is how unnecessarily strong Gero made the androids if he thought that Goku only had a power level of 9,000-90,000 since he didn’t follow him to namek. I definitely don’t think the humans actually got that strong in super though. They just wanted the characters to have some useful scenes. I definitely don’t think any of the human fighters ever passed frieza level strength.
Gero was a 70 year old Snoop Dogg
Gero: *(invents infinite energy potentially revolutionizing the whole word)*
Also Gero: That's nice and all, but how do I kill Son Goku with this?
My theory on how the androids are so powerful is that Dr geron manage to get frieza tech that was destroyed by trunks and reverse engineering frieza technology and when trunks time travel dr geron had analyzed all of earth warriors dna especially goku he's been tracking goku since dragon ball and had no information on trunks so dr geron decided to enhance both 17 and 18 which is why trunks said that his presence might had made the androids stronger
Doesn’t really make since if he’s android 20 and he travelled with 19. He succeeded them in model number. It just doesn’t make since at all how they were that strong and even were formidable enough to take participate in the ToP.
"Dr geron"...
@@itsyaboy490 your right dr geron/android 20 surpassed them in model number but he was build and design differently since he required to absorb energy while 17 and 18 and infinite energy and didn't require to absorb energy
Head canons are bullshit. Toriyama and anime never bother explaining why they're so strong.
4:56 yes. We call that bad writing
I mean, when you have a decade long vendetta as Gero in wanting to destroy your enemy, it's simple to have that determination to make a break through in science to develop that advance technology.
With that logic he could just make stronger androids 😂😂
Future Trunks Timeline and the Android and Cell Saga as a whole still have soo many questions and mysteries that have yet to be explored in depth.
When Frieza came to earth in both the present and future timelines Dr. Gero tracked and studied him when he fought Super Saiyan Goku.
It’s definitely odd. Gero was collecting data from battles on Earth. Not sure if he unknowingly collected data from Frieza and the party when they arrived.
But also there is a point of him keeping up with all of Goku’s battles from Dragonball through Z before he went to namek. It’s possible Gero seen the progression and how fast Goku could develop and estimated it over a time period. Granted which makes sense because Gero was not ready for the SSJ form or the multipliers it gave or further training as a SSJ. I think Gero just estimated as far as he could into the future and just thought ahead.
I just thought the strongest person gero would have had data on tat that time would be ape vegeta if he decided to do a ball park of let's say like 100× that he roughly gets around namek saga ssj goku and we'll if he goes beyond 100× that then he gets stronger than feezia. So he's catering for hours growth and basing it off if the strongest power he's seen yet
Wow! This is absolutely mindblowing! We must have been ignorant or even dumb to think Dr. Gero was an ass pull Move! It’s not! The humans in DB have so much potential! Their Technology outclasses everything we know in our world! Damn!!
Kudos man!!!💪🏽 too strong
The technological ability of humans relative to that of aliens is a good point. Unfortunately the Dragon Ball series has never been good with consistency. However, it's worth pointing out that Yamcha and Tiene became stronger than even the Ginyu force by training with King Kai, which could mean that humans have more potential even than saiyans, at least before the super saiyan transformation. That means they surpassed by far what Goku was able to achieve training with King Kai in presumably the same amount of time. Maybe turning humans into androids is thus the human equivalent of the super saiyan transformation. It unlocks the full human potential. In the end, we have to remember that the Dragon Ball universe is full of magic and other things that make no logical sense whatsoever. It seems to be more about telling a story with emotions.
Another question, why did Gero build a remote that could be taken out of his hands by a faster android? He could've build one within his own brain.
Eventually in dragonball someone is so strong that when he or she farts the entire multiverse deletes itself completely. Oh and of course by "accident".
The real question is why he didn’t make king cold a android Instead of just getting his DNA I’m pretty sure king cold as a android would have been stronger then cell
King cold got turned to ashes by trunks
@@user-ue6ur5nt5z Oh yeah but what if he did it and the doctor made him into a android
I think you’re still underestimating alien tech. We’ve seen scouters, space pods, the elastic saiyan armor, healing tanks, etc. in universe not made on earth. Human tech is great but alien tech is equally as impressive.
So all things considered, I think the tyrant Frieza should’ve still been stronger, but new arch = new enemies, so I get it
True. Since the Aliens are stronger and more resilent they have different needs. Flying is a regular fest for example, so no need for flying cars
its equally impressive but different tech. It must be one of those times where most alien species are sufficiently evolved and friezas reign just happens to conquer and wipe out planets so they never reach their potential. The only reason earth did is because it wasnt wiped out by goku as it was supposed to. Were way past great filter but civiliations battlign each other must be filter 2.0
I have a question - if Gero made Cell, and artificially enhanced the once human Androids, and turned them into super cyborg soldiers of the Red Ribbon Army - why didn't Gero just design Cell to be perfect from the get go? Why not just do whatever he did to the Androids, to Cell from the get go, and skip the whole hunting and absorbing process?
Even better, why not make an army of Cells
I always thought that, but he probably planned cell after making 17 and 18, who he wanted to get rid of. Killing them would be a waste, so why not make it useful to his new creation
@Wu-Entai90 I just think Gero's whole Android project was a bad idea, because they all seemed destined to betray him, eventually. I don't get why he didn't just apply all of this android tech to himself, and take Goku out that way, or just build another Red Ribbon Army Power Jacket Mech Suit, but supe it up with all the infinite energy stuff, and make it as powerful as the androids and Cell, and just use that, instead.
@@eugeneturner7520 can you imagine, Super Android 20
Well.. that's where you're wrong dude Gero didn't made cell it was his supercomputer.
And people say dragon ball super power scaling sucks, everything after the frizea saga honestly made no sense power scaling wise in dragonball z
Bulma's dad invented capsules they ignore the laws of physics they can shrink things down to any size while ignoring their mass and weight
But of course. The man made a hot as hell babe and a beautiful dude bro strong enough to beat the shit out of a super saiyan with ease. Gero is one smart ass old man. Man.
I think that in DBZ the Andriods may not have been as strong as a Super Saiyan at first but when Frieza came in the same ship with the technology that gave him cyber enhancements and made him stronger; Dr. Gero was able to reverse engineer some of that technology from the debris same how and add it to the Andriods.
This makes things so much clearer lol but either way I’ve always enjoyed the Android/Cell arc!
"How did you put your own brain into a robot body?"
- "Easy, I just, um. . . 🤨Wait a minute. How did I do that?"
🤔
Problem is when u see all these inventions are coming from only 3 humansbulma, brief, gero, that's the problem, and humans are not comparable to super Saiyans, goku was just holding his strength vs krilin
Greatest mind in genetic engineering
Dr gero was beyond a genius.
What about in GT?
@@JSun3000 he seemed more like an idiot in GT. At least to me.
With the type of technology Dragon Ball's Earth's civilization have, they should at least be type 1 or type 2 specie on Kardashev Civilization Scale, but they are not.
yes
@Lujack Shaw thats all pretty much just assumption, toriyama haven't told us everything about DB earth, but all the points you made get useless when you see that bulma's dad made a spaceship that traveled to another galaxy in a week, our galaxy is near 220 million light years wide and traveling near light speed would take infinite amount of energy, now imagine making an engine source that produced so much energy that the spaceship flew over hundreds of millions light years, not even sun's energy is enough for that. And don't forget that Bulma created a time machine, which travels through 4th dimensional space time continuum, and let me remind you that 3D infinity is finite quantity in 4D.
So yes, they are seemingly 1 level civilization but that's just because other plants of their solar system is not habitable.
My answer for why DB earth has not colonized the solar system or milky way galaxy is because people like Frieza and Beerus destroyed so many worlds for their profit that no other civilization was able to colonize to the level of earth and make communication with other worlds. But don't forget that under Frieza and Saiyans dominion alot of plants were purchased, colonized and destroyed.
I can live with the Androids being as strong they were, it doesn't shatter my immersion.
But you can't take the examples you pulled from DBS even remotely seriously in my opinion. The argument "they have immense potential" makes no sense when you consider that Krillin was wounded by a bullet from a gun, and essentially turned around and went toe to toe with Goku. It's absolutely ridiculous. There's a limit to how much you can push a fictional world's internal logic after it's been established.
Any of the characters can be hurt with a gun if they’re powered down. Obviously they do this so that they don’t destroy their houses and what not.
@@Brandon_Mishima Then why was he surprised and depressed after it happened? He acted if it was a reflection of his lapse in training/strength.
@@WrestlingColin Probably because he was caught off guard where as before he would have been ready to defend himself.
Goku was also shot by Frieza's servent in dbs because he was "off guard". I completely agree its very contradicting in terms of power scaling. They can destroy planets in a instant and deflect similar beams as well but a random bullet can hurt them.
Because it’s all bad writing.
In this house we obey the law of thermodynamics!
-Homer
Earth technology is just broken, simple as. It’s established in the first chapter of the series that Hoi-Poi capsules can just shrink an entire house into a light capsule than can be carried around with capsules that are also filled with super heavy things. Not to mention faster than light space travel, zero gravity chamber, and literal time travel. Unlike power levels, which are expected to make sense on at least a flimsy level, technology in DB has no such obligation. The universe changes its own rules and laws of physics to fit the technology. The androids are simply that effect crossed with ki and power levels.
It’s kinda like how cartoon characters can break the rules of reality for whatever is funniest (such as that clip in super where Vegeta fights Arale from Dr. Slump). Arale can take a hit from Vegeta because gag comic character. Similarly, androids beat Frieza because technology.
My actual question is more importantly how did Dr gero move his own brain to a Android body
Android 19 helped him.
@@saintfisuto1072 That was risky as f!ck too, because once the brain was removed from his human body - 19 was pretty much on his own to complete the process.
What if he malfunctioned at that crucial moment?
Would've easily been in the Top 3 of *"Epic Fails of Science"* .
🤣🤣🤣
good thing 19 was an energy absorbtion model and not infinite energy
Not to mention if the anime is anything to go by he was programmed to follow orders one thing went wrong gero would have been screwed
Programing Timed Automation
As far as I know, Capsule Corp's tech is based on the tech provided by Jaco, which makes me think that human ability may be something of a super learning rather than superintelligence. Which forced by different situations, like a Bulma from the future much more pressured results in the creation of the technology of the time travel machine, or a Dr. Gero from the future who saw Goku fight with Frieza and King Cold, instead of a brief fight with Trunks, which led to more aggressive and apparently more destructive Androids, who killed Gero before building 19 and 20, and surely Cell of the original line would have developed being less powerful since it did not have DNA of a Goku who fought on Namek. Although I know that looking for the logic to an Anime is a bit absurd, I think that this explains better that exception of the beings of the earth, benefited at first with magical objects such as Roshi and Uranai Baba, the dragon balls created by the unnamed Namek, the arrival of Goku / Jaco, then Frieza's DNA, and so on. They have the power of luck xd
Ok so say...gero builds the andriods. Then cell. And the andriods don't kill him...then what?whats his end game? Does he put them back to sleep until cell is ready to absorb them? Would cell take orders from gero or does cell end up killing him? Say they 17 and 18 kill the z warios and goku and don't kill him. Does he cancel the cell project? Does he leave 17 and 18 in stasis? No no i think his ultimate goal wasn't to kill goku it was world domination and expansion. I think the natural progression of a military mind like his was to build the andriods and then build an army. With the z warriors dead and the worlds governments yielding to him he can now build more androids like 16. No longer in hiding and with much more ease. With 2 he owns the world. And with his life elongated earth becomes to small for him. Augmenting entire armies into walking nuclear weapons he expands into the stars and humanity enters an unprecedented golden age.
It'd be a repressive military dictator ship. And Gero didn't want an army. That's why he just made single units like the androids.
So earth wouldn't be too small for far too long. And not including rebellions like we saw against black. He'd either be eliminating people and destroying most of the world.
We don't know what he'd want after ruling. Maybe make more machines or experiments. The whole thing was probably just ego.
@@DSan-kl2yc i think single units could have been the limitation of resources in dbz because he was in hiding. He was building them in dragonball for the red ribbon ARMY after all. he build apparently 19 and was working on a 20th (not including 20th himself) and i know the movies aren't canon but imagine 17 doesn't kill him and then he has 4 androids (16,17,18,19) plus the 3 from the super 13 movie. You're suddenly looking at a guy thats building more then a few units. Maybe even rebuilding say a red ribbon army?. It's speculations but it's fun to think about a world where gero gets what he wants.
I think the ultimate goal was for Cell to become perfect then for Gero to implant his consciousness into Cell, giving him a powerful undying body that he could rule with.
@@wearblackclothes the army was gone so he was just carrying on.
A long time ago I read that he saw the power of Goku beat an army so he switched strategies to creating one man armies. Not sure if that was canon or from a guidebook.
But I don't think he was going to build an armt because he wouldn't have needed an Android army.
Either with himself as an Android or 17-18, he could have taken over the world and just make a normal army for normal stuff.
He might have carried on experimenting. But I figure cell is the ultimate end of his creative abilities..it took like 15 or so more years for cell to be finished. If anything he was downsizing androids since 16. And going more Bio.
@@wearblackclothes remember that he didn't used any android. Everything after 8 was scrapped. And even 16 was scrapped in the alternate future. 16 was never intended for us. In the main timeline he even decided to not use 17-18. Meaning he purposefully kept the number small and went with just 2 units.
I'm going to fight them all. A Red Ribbon Army couldn't hold me back.
I’m still bothered by the fact they made 17 strong enough to fight evenly against ssj blue 🤦🏿
17 was grinding Legacy of Goku style on that island😂😂😂
Dr. Breef’s spaceship was made with the engine of a space pod
But it’s way faster , 7 days vs a year travel across space
Was it? I don't remember that. I know one pod blew up. But then he made a second one too. So wasn't that from scratch
@@Dilllonm Bulma had TWO examples of FTL tech to study. Kami's Namekian ship, Saiyan battle pods. Also, the big saucer ship Frieza uses seems to have similar tech to battle pods, but is also way faster. It could just be that Battle Pods are like using a motor scooter instead of a jumbo jet.
the same way everything got stronger than frieza, anime bullshit and plot armor.
That's not plot armor. Just plot. And it's a fine trope.
@@DSan-kl2yc not really. It gets very boring and formulaic after a while.
@@clericofchaos1 no it really is fine
The stakes always need to he higher them the previous villain otherwise it's shitty writing to write a new villain that's weaker then the older one
Power creep was always going to he an issue in Dragon Ball but it's okay like that Goku will always need to he the underdog and face more Powerful villains
If he didn't do that it wouldn't be Dragon Ball
@@pingaspearce9403 and dragonball sucks. The enemies never needed to get stronger, Frieza should have been the limit. they needed to get smarter. Hell, I thought Moro would be a breath of fresh air because they were finally making use of magic and new fighting mechanics...then it just turned into another slugfest. If you want to actually challenge Goku you need to make him use the one muscle he never exercises, his brain.
At what point does the stakes just become nonsensical I mean more than it already has. Kid buu was already at galaxy level…anything beyond that just becomes “ok next arc, bring in the next new bad guy” and repeat
I never thought it was much of a stretch. Bulma as a teen was able to make a dragon ball radar that pin pointed the locations of dragon balls. The red ribbon army and even Frieza's army couldn't even do that. And Gero himself was a super genius among other scientists and made things that even Bulma and her dad couldn't comprehend at first. Not to mention, Gero studied super powered beings constantly for years. It wouldn't be too much for him to come up with some breakthrough like artificial ki which he gave to 17 and 18 and it certainly wouldn't be much of a stretch for him to make someone like Cell, who was created from the cells of the greatest fighters, including Frieza's.
Hell Dr.Gero to me where Megamans Dr.Wiley comes from
Please stop being in denial it's bad writing that is the answer
@@shayoko6 the series died with freeza