Street Epistemology: Jenny and Anthony | Fruitful Feelings | Mormons
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ต.ค. 2017
- Location: San Antonio, Texas
Recorded: 6 October 2017
Released: 12 October 2017
Twitter: / magnabosco (follow me)
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Audio Only: / ep-189-dialogue-anthon...
** Add foreign language captions w/TH-cam's community contributions tools **
Summary: Anthony and Jenny are members of the LDS Church and were eager to speak with me about their Mormon religion. Each hold a high degree of confidence in their God because of the fruits their belief provides them and their view that feelings can be a reliable way to know things.
While it would have been optimal to interview each person individually, the talk was still helpful in revealing what, why, and how Jenny and Anthony believe.
Note: I worked in the phrase "falling down the stairs" around the 25:10 mark as a thank you to one of the two highest donors to my fundraising campaign to help cover travel expenses related to conducting Street Epistemology talks and workshops in the coming months.
Mistakes: The "GodCam" cut off the top of my head for the most part of this discussion-it's hard to judge this shot.
Recorded w/Go-Pro. Edited w/PowerDirector.
The views addressed here are mine and mine alone, and are not necessarily shared by members of my family and friends.
#StreetEpistemology #ChurchOfJesusChristOfLatterDaySaints #Mormons #Magnabosco #LDSChurch #Faith #Feelings #JosephSmith #AnthonyMagnabosco
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I sat down with the ex-Mormon podcast 'Infants on Thrones' to discuss this conversation in greater detail. Check it out!
infantsonthrones.com/ep-559-street-epistemology-the-one-with-the-mormon-couple/
Anthony -- I heard you on the infants podcast a few days ago. It was the first I had heard of street epistemology. As a post-mormon with almost zero belief in anything supernatural, it is interesting to see your gentle and respectful process of helping people to dissect their own beliefs. Thanks for the work you do.
Kent Judkins I’m really glad that you looked into it further. I have a playlist on my channel of my top 10 talks, or anything recently over the last couple of years is probably a pretty good representation of the method. And if you can, please share this approach with your family and friends.
Uhhh there’s symbols on the garments.
Those Golden plates were real Godamn it .
@@Azozeo lol ikr..
The first crack: "Saying it that way sounds odd, but..." The moment when cognitive dissonance makes you briefly realize what you're saying just doesn't sound correct should be the first alarm bell that you might be self-deceived.
Good point. "Might" is a good word to use, because I've used similar wording ( "...it might not make sense..." or "...it probably sounds strange..." ) when conversing with a Non-Believer/Agnostic/Atheist and it's my way of stepping into their shoes. It's not a revelation of self-deception. It could be, though, which again is why "might" is fair and useful.
“Might sound odd” is also to cushion the blow for speaking to someone you might be concerned doesn’t have the same level of education or has very sheltered experiences. I’ve personally experienced that the more religious people I’ve encountered in my travels have tended to be more narrow in their experiences and domains of curiosity.
I feel Jenny was trying to engage, whereas Anthony was trying to preach. He also talked over her quite a bit. I appreciated that Jenny could be intellectually honest and say she wasn't sure how she would respond. She was confident enough in her beliefs to explore new ideas, whereas Anthony refused to engage in the thought exercises. He kept looking for opportunities to try and convert instead of actually thinking about what he believed and why. However, every time Jenny said that her beliefs weren't beliefs, they were knowledge, I had to cringe. As an ex-mo, I know where that's coming from. However, it still makes me cringe how the mormon cult has twisted such a simple word.
Its the same thing with faith. Most Christians will tell u faith is the most important thing. I dont even think they kno wat it means! Its just that the Church talks about faith all the time and how u have to have it and how important it is and then its to the point where if u dont have faith ur not a true christian/believer. So naturally everyone wants faith and they think of it as this good and righteous thing. Thats why its so hard to discredit faith as a reliable pathway to truth. They basically think that faith IS truth.
He was upset by her answering questions, but Mormons believe that the man has the final say - he's just acting on his belief system
She seemed to be holding her own ok to me.
She looked so annoyed when he went off on tangents.
Jenny just wanted to go to Costco lol.
Jenny to her husband: “but how do you know that?”
*lightbulb 💡
Keep going!!!
Jenny is really smart. I hope she continues to think through this.
Ex-Mormon here. This was both fascinating and frustrating.
The Occult does indeed confirm the Mormon faith (Jesus Christ) on it's merits. This one particular ancient Occult practice that I practiced for just a couple of years, years ago does indeed recognize the Mormon faith (Jesus Christ) on it's merits, that is.
congratulations
markj6700 LOL Exactly.
@markj6700 If so, I doubt he would listen because of his "feelings." She seemed confident enough to dare to explore opposing ideas and stayed intellectually honest (admitting where she didn't know). He refused to even entertain the idea of "what if I'm wrong?"
Why did you quit? Being Mormon, more than being about God, I think it is about the connections and the mutual help. There should be peaceful Atheist open groups like that (not like secret societies). I hope you kept the connections at least.
I wish you could have interviewed Jenny alone. Anthony just likes to hear himself talk in circles, avoiding the questions.
Jenny clearly got frustrated with Anthony's nonsensical rambling
That one
I agree with you. My guess is that he likes the Mormon religion because it's enticing to men who want to be in positions of authority and feel important. I think he commandeered the conversation.
fullajoy365 I agree, he was a rambler, but she had no problem interrupting her husband, but sure got annoyed when he interrupted her.
@@elizabethlevine4263 Why do you think they're married? No criticism, just curious.
He's a simple minded man
I get it. You trust your feelings. You know that feelings can sometimes be unreliable, but not this time, not for you. Because what you believe is special. It just works because you make it work. You want it to work. You need it to work. It has to work. It just has to.
and this is known as "Special Pleading"
I liked Jenny, she needs to keep up the questioning.
Her husband is closed to the point of arrogance, but Jenny is more thoughtful. He is preaching. She is thinking.
+1
There is nothing to question Yino!
I know more than enough to know that there is nothing to question.
OneEyedJack01 her husband thinks he can convert someone. It probably brings back memories of his missionary days.
My heart aches for Jenny.
We literally have the same name.
@@alexwilliamns except you, er, spell your surname differently.
@@criticalbil1 not legally. It’s just for the internet because “Alex(ander) Williams” is such a common name 😂
same. the difference in their levels of awareness (conversational awareness?) as to what was being asked, answered, who ought to be speaking, the coherence (or lack thereof) in the answers they were providing, etc., was striking.
it was funny, though, how upset he'd get by her interruptions and perceived interruptions, only to resume a long, meandering, and off-topic response lacking insight.
It takes a certain kind of stupid to be recruited into a cult without being indoctrinated into it as a child. I would guess that there are more people with disorganized thoughts in the former group than in the latter, the latter are just ignorant for the most part.
I'm really impressed with Jenny's ability to engage genuinely (and extemporaneously) with these sorts of questions about a core belief. She didn't seem defensive and wasn't waiting to talk; she was charitably interpreting the questions and honestly considering them. Quite impressive and admirable.
She was so lovely!! I wish more religious people were willing to talk this way
@@molsondutch93 Unfortunately, what you're saying ("I wish more religious people were willing to talk this way") boils down to "I wish more religious people were willing to let go of their beliefs when questioned thoughtfully".
@@ChicagoSteve well, yes
It was a thing of beauty watching Jenny try to deeply understand and really respond to the questions posed.
I grew up lds, and am now an atheist. The community was really nice in the church, and I remember good friends of our family moving away to Texas, and I haven't seen them since I was a teenager. And here they are.
TheGrades90 No kidding?!
Yeah man. My dad and I would work on cars with Tony (Anthony) :) He and Jenn are the sweetest people.
TheGrades90 They really seem like great folks.
I’m sure there are great people, but I am curious how you were treated once you renounced the faith. If you haven’t renounced it yet please remove your comment. I don’t want you to catch flak for leaving the church.
I always wonder if I'll randomly see a long lost acquaintance on a random youtube video one day. Must be kinda surreal, haha!
I think this might be the first time we've seen two Mormon's interviewed by an atheist. Flipping the script. lol
I didn't even think about that lol
Now you know what it's like trying to have conversations with my family...
I'll rewatch & see what specific questions you asked/didn't ask that would be helpful in future interactions with Mormons. As you could tell, especially when there's more than one feeding off each other, there isn't a lot of room for introspection. To them they already have the truth and are trying to share it, not examine their beliefs or why they believe them. Most Mormons want nothing more than to testify to a receptive audience; overcoming that to get to the epistemology is the hard part.
@@bronsonbarton1491 Same with the members of mine that are still in the church. I find it difficult to talk with them about their faith because it is so rooted in emotions/feelings. It can be a bit easy to offend when no offense is meant, because it often may feel like you are attacking an important part of them. I've found that as time goes on, family members tend to make their way out on their own.
I bet If they were on trial,falsely accused of a serious crime, that they'd prefer the jury use evidence-and not feelings-to determine their fate.
They should apply that to their religious beliefs too.
Gary Munro he has used that before with good results. I thought the same thing here.
Well said ,couldn’t agree more.I get a feeling that makes me think it’s true isn’t a way to determine what is actually true.
I keep thinking why doesn’t he ask them how they would know isnt true if they believe not based on evidence.
Yes. He should have asked them something along the lines of "What would the evidence look like that would prove it wasn't true?"
That’s a bit tricky because a jury of peers will use their feelings whether they want to or not.
I love that analogy. I'll remember and use it.
39:20 I always hate it when people say, there is no book on how to be a parent. There are thousands of books on how to be a parent.
Exactly
and I recommend this one: www.goodreads.com/book/show/165548.Parent_Effectiveness_Training
Goes well with Street Epistemology, as it puts emphasis on communication (even non-verbal one, with babies) and active listening. Also teaches parents how to talk to be listened to. And sees parents as humans with needs, it's not child-centered as many other books I had a chance to see (while baby sitting)
I agree, but I think he meant that there's no blueprint.
OneEyedJack01 No blueprint?
Makai Post I think they mean a manual for each child. I know my parents could have used a manual on raising me. The read all the other parenting books and they didn't help much.
I think they mean there's no ONE (definite) book on how to be a parent. Some books can only present you with an ideological approach on how to be a parent which can be a mixture of fact-based research as well as subjective preferences.
As a former Mormon for over 30 years, I can say that feelings (what they call "the Spirit") is the keystone of their epistemology. You did a good job highlighting how feelings are not a reliable method of learning truth. However, they tried to argue that their feelings are different from your examples. As a Mormon, I thought that how I felt about my religion was much much stronger and more genuine, than how other people felt about their beliefs (because I thought it was "the Spirit" testifying, not just me).
If you encounter Mormons in the future, I recommend giving more examples of how strongly other people believe in religion X, so hopefully the understand their feelings are not unique. But of course those feelings are not a reliable epistemology for determining objective reality.
Feelings are a great way to know what beliefs make you comfortable and happy, but they're a terrible way to prove those beliefs are absolute truth.
Yes. There's this idea of the gift of the holy ghost giving you the right to a greater quantity of more accurate feelings than nonmormon religious people.
@@steggopotamus I love how you put this.
_"I recommend giving more examples of how strongly other people believe in religion X"_
As someone who has never had any connection to the Mormon church, I often like to bring up martyrs and suicide bombers when discussing the fallibility of feelings/conviction. There exist people from all religions who feel so strongly that their beliefs are true that they're willing to pay the ultimate price for those beliefs. Would that be a decent example in your book, or would you have a better one?
The stopwatch is just a prop at this point ;)
I think he just forget to ask if they could continue with the discussion.
We did the same thing as Jehovahs witnesses. “Would you be interested in a 3 minute doorstep bible study”
"I set a stop watch for 5 minutes which we will totally ignore and we will likely talk for up to several hours. You good?"
Well, it's more of a psychological trick - keeping them relaxed... "oh OK - not a big time commitment then..." and then when the time is up, they've realised they want more. It's no prop! It's crucial! :-)
Always has been
"Excellent question, Jenny." Here's a clipboard. You got this... ;)
Anthony talked and talked but never stopped for the entire hour to listen or think.
Lol ... wrong , as I was reading this comment the female was in the middle of a reasonable length explanation , misrepresenting the conversation doesnt benefit anyone
The moment for me is when she says “interesting” right before 21 minutes. She comprehended exactly what you said. I’m very proud of her for being able to listen to you and hear what you said there and have an audible response to it.
It's interesting that at 50:18 Anthony describes the definition of confirmation bias, and Mormon Anthony goes "yes, exactly right".
LDS usually have difficulty thinking!
Lol I love how this explanation of how religion is worthless if you can prove it like ...what...
"It's believing in something that isn't there" made me chuckle, freudian slip of the tongue.
I liked these two, they were so forthright, honest and enthusiastic about their belief (might just be a mormon thing?). She seemed to think deeply about your questions, while he was a little more interested in his own talking points ;)
I agree that single interviews would probably have been much better here, as you can see them often bouncing their opinions off each other seemingly in an attempt to elicit confirmation/validation from the other. I feel like the closer people are socially, the more likely it is they won't be 100% honest or open in a group setting in order not to fall too far off the norm. Not even necessarily consciously -it's just what happens.
xD haven't reached that part
yeah, when he asked them how confident they were in their belief, i immediately KNEW both of them would say 100%. there is no way they could give an honest answer to that question right in front of their spouse. i believed Anthony when he said 101%, he's hyperzealous convert down to his very bones, but i think if Jenny was alone she might have given a lower number. still in the high 90s, but i think she would have admitted at least some possibility of being wrong.
Haha hi yellowpete, didn't expect seeing you in here.
Jenny put in a good try though. She definitely took a few moments to think about herself where she was mentally separated from him.
I would say that is a fairly common trait in the Mormons I know (I used to be one too). The modern Mormon church tends to be fairly PC and the foundation of the restoration story sounds a lot like critical thinking to a believer (Joseph smith asking god which church to join etc) and to be fair many modern Mormons believe that each person must come to their own understanding.
The doctrine is just as much Bollux as any of the religions Mormonism rips off though.
Jenny was great. I think an interview with just her would have gone better.
Here is the REAL question....
Did Jenny ever get her food???
ADDISON396 Yes,Anthony served her some 'food for thought' for about an hour.
Gary Munro well, it did not satiate her.
If she merely feels full, that's all that matters.
😂😂😂
@Saint Christopher Not funny.
Watching these two, I feel like I know their household dynamic.
Anthony: - You interrupted me, soooo...
And he's dumb as a box of rocks
Jenny was much more willing and open to genuinely questioning her methods of coming to truthful conclusions. Both of them together did make for a great conversation. I know you sometimes say that you’re not great at dual interviews, or it isn’t your preferred interview format, but you do it well. And what I find interesting and important about this format is that it gives one interviewee the opportunity to witness the cognitive dissonance/mental gymnastics and guarded behavior of the other. Which definitely seems to help them think more.
I'm not sure if you'll ever see this comment since the video is from a few years ago. I'm an ex-mormon as of 2 years ago. When I was a believer I honestly thought that the goodness I experienced following advice in the scriptures and the feelings I felt were more than what everyone else had experienced. I never thought critically about my epistemology, so the comprehensive-account-for-every-possible-situation set of doctrines seemed almost self evident of its truthfulness. I didn't realize that just because there is a cogent story that gets an emotional response, it doesn't indicate truth. This same thought process may be the cause of the doctrine coming up a lot in the interview. You may benefit from saying something like, "I understand the doctrines you believe explain a lot about the world and sharing them shows your desire to improve the world, but I'd like to focus on your methods for establishing belief." For Jenny, relating a real world example may help since she is essentially saying, "a prophet gave good counsel so he is a true prophet." You may try an example like, "I have a nutrition book at home that solved my heart issue, does that mean the author should start a church." (Or something less intrusive). For the man, "I felt good feelings during the Harry Potter movie, does that mean his story is real?" Good luck. I love your interviews. Keep them coming. They help me think of ways to talk to my family.
Hey Anthony, great video! I have a small suggestion for you. I think putting the blue text at the beginning as well as the end of your videos will discourage rude or mean comments more effectively, especially for longer videos like this where people may not have the patience to make it to the end. Keep doing what your doing! Love the content.
From the few minutes of scrolling through his comments section I haven't seen any real rude comments yet. I'm sure I'll run into a few yet, but that's truly amazing for TH-cam. What he says about someone reading the comment really hits home to me. If they are on the fence about changing their mind then read a nasty comment it could throw them right back into defense mode.
Former Mormon here. Went on a mission, salt lake temple marriage, started raising 4 kids in the religion, held calling in young men's presidencies as well as elders quorum presidencies. You asked the right questions. Not sure if its unique to Mormonism but what started my doubts was not epistemology. Plenty of gaping holes, contradictions, and a white washed past to compare with actual. The knowledge that my church may not be the one true church allowed me for the first time in my life to really truly examine my deeply held beliefs and gain knowledge from an outside perspective. While my journey started with a simple wikipedia search to prepare a lesson, many point to TheCESLetter as a source for some obvious holes in the faith. Not sure if it would help Jenny, but Tony might find some cracks there. PS I have found that other people outside of Mormonism are fantastic people and bear equal+ fruits. 😃
This was amazing. I immediately noticed and was impressed when you transformed Jenny into an SE-er. That was awesome lol.
I've tried SE with 2 Mormons so far. Neither one mentioned faith once. It was always just feelings and "fruitage of the spirit".
Stacy Lopez can a Muslim use her feelings and look at the fruitage of the spirit to conclude Allah is real and the Quran is the final word of god?
I second Bryan's take on this: "feelings" and "fruit of the spirit" are just "faith" by another name. However, it is important to use their own verbiage when talking to them so they know you're listening and not trying to lay a trap or put words in their mouth.
sachamm good point!
Joseph Smith predicted the civil war.
SE = Street Epistemology, which is the main focus of this channel. It is a method of discussing and questioning deeply held beliefs without causing bad feelings.
Holy moly, Anthony. Your level of patience leaves me in awe. Thank you for your work!
I was ready to scream.
Excellent conversation! Such a nice couple. Jenny really seemed to grasp what you were doing but Anthony seemed more intent on converting you as the religion tells them to do. It's always so amazing how people are so sure their own feelings about their religion are one hundred percent valid but the feelings of people who worship differently only have a part of the truth or no truth at all.
one hundred and one** percent
I didn't think the noise was detrimental at all. Great conversation. I agree with your overall assessment at the end. It might have been more productive interviewing them separately. Jenny seemed to listen and understand your questions better than Anthony. There were many times that she was attempting to refocus Anthony by reiterating your question that he was either misunderstanding or just not answering. You could almost see her cringe at some of his answers, which was priceless, but she would check that pretty quickly and switch back to listening. Anthony seemed like he wanted to preach or at least persuade rather than come to a better mutual understanding through conversation. Very interesting to watch. Thank you for sharing another great conversation. And thank you, Jenny and Anthony, for being open to sharing and discussing the methods you use to arrive at your belief.
Note the cordiality. It's really nice to see the guy actually wanting to keep engaging the conversation after so long. I think this is one of the virtues of Street Epistemology. We can have meaningful conversation about beliefs and not talk passed each other. It's very pleasant to see.
I think he realized he was spinning out and couldn’t let it go.
"Do a short little fiver?" One hour long. Haha.
Every time, lol. To a true atheist 5 Min can be a hour and a hour 5 Min, depending on who you debate.
When he says at 47:02 that he believes 100% that there is a guy behind that tree; it maybe good to ask wouldn't you be more confident that there is a guy there if you went around the tree and located him? If he says yes then you could say then how could you have been at the 100% mark.
Though I have the feeling he'd say no, that seeing the guy behind the tree wouldn't raise his confidence, I'm not sure if you can go anywhere with that mentality because he's effectively shielding himself from finding out if he's wrong.
Mormons are not much different from other evangelicals as far as their epistemology goes. They base everything on the spirit. Despite the fact that the spirit is always described as feelings (love, peace, joy, etc.) they will argue that it is somehow "more," something indescribably special, and therefore not comparable to the inferior feelings of other faiths, or the unreliable impulses that lead to incorrect conclusions. While members of other faiths feel a _portion_ of the spirit, commensurate with their meager portion of the truth, Mormons feel the full power of it.
As you saw for most of the conversation, it was special pleading left and right. I think you did great trying to drive the point home that confirmatory feelings are not unique, and that others feel just as strongly about their own beliefs, but Anthony just wasn't having it. They were both trying their best not to put themselves in the shoes of another religious adherent, and to maintain the illusion that their own experiences with the spirit were unique, special, and only available to members of the one true religion.
The other problem I saw was that they were using their beliefs to justify their beliefs:
I.e. "It's okay to use feelings to choose a belief based on feelings because our time here on earth is a test and you'll only be judged based on what you know/how you respond to your special feelings." -> How do you know that life is a test and judgement is based on those things? -> Because my belief system told me so.
The Mormon Informant I want to confirm what you're saying. I was a believing evangelical Christian for a dozen years. At the very base of my faith, my 100% surety, were my special feelings and experiences. I "knew" the presence of the "holy spirit'. So, even when faced with contradictions or challenges , deep down my faith wasn't shaken because of the feelings.
The Mormon Informant In Mormon Anthony's case, he has a personal example of what he means because he can compare how deeply he feels now, as a Mormon, to how weak his feelings about his Christianity were when he was RC.
Except that they think extra power of discernment and extra spirit has been given to them by virtue of priesthood ordinances and callings.
216trixie it’s not what the Bible says though, you were taught wrong. We’re called to walk by faith not sight
Couple interviews are challenging. You did very well here. The husband was frustrating but the wife was being thoughtful and understood your qs. I wish you could interview two people of different religions in the same interview, like a christian and a muslim or a hindu. Let them hear one anothers answers. That would demand more from you making sure they dont talk over one another but keep it respectful. But if anyone can do it it's you. It would be like posing the outsider view argument in a different way. Having them reflect over how the same logic leads to different conclusions.
ExMormon here.
Yeah. Appeal to personal experience is Mormonism's bread and butter. Kinda took nearly an hour for them to admit that.
I think one good point to make when a Mormon talks about a Muslim having a "portion of the truth" is to say, "How do you know that your religion isn't the one with a portion of the truth and that's where your feelings of truthfulness come from?"
And if they say, "Well, because my spiritual experience was _specific._ I know the Book of Mormon is true because god revealed that to me _specifically",_ then the follow up could be, "what if that feeling about the Book of Mormon is from 'portions of truth' found within the book that are a part of the _whole truth_ which is Islam?"
Also, ask a Mormon to define "truth" and "knowledge" because they use those words _all the time_ in church, but are incorrectly applied. It's what I call "presupposing language". Jenny spoke that way a couple of times like at 46:11 when she said, _"I believe that there is an eternal being within me. And without that faith and knowing that way, I think I wouldn't have such a deep-rooted knowledge. I think seeing something is not as eternal or long lasting."_ Also at 47:45 when she says, _"I feel like I could be handed physical evidence that something that I've learned within the Book of Mormon or something is not true, and I would still have the knowledge that I do."_
Also, I know the _exact_ talk they're referring to at 48:53. It was at the Mormon General Conference. The speaker was Tad Callister who is a pretty high-up authority in the church. www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/gods-compelling-witness-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng The whole thing is basically one big argument from ignorance. It's basically, _"well if the Book of Mormon is false, then how could it have been written in such a short period of time or how could the BoM be so complex? All these factors show that the Book of Mormon was dictated through the power of god. etc. etc."_
In fact, if you ever talk with a Mormon again, and they bring up the complexity of the Book of Mormon or how Joseph Smith was "an uneducated farmboy", talk about how those are the _same arguments_ that Muslims use for the Koran. Like, "If Muhammad lived out in the middle of the desert and uneducated, how could he know about all the stages of conception in the womb?"
Anyways, great talk with them. I kind of wish I was there to ask questions as well, but I don't think I would be quite as composed as you were. I think I would be a little too invested in the conversation.
I really enjoyed this, because I was raised in the Mormon church, so whenever I have these conversations with Mormons there is always a bias from my perspective, and I doubt whether or not I can remove that from my questions. Also, because they invariably discover that I was once a Mormon, I think that represents a challenge for them to remove that bias from their responses and to really see my questions objectively, rather than perceiving me as "attacking" them. BTW, I really love Mormons. As a group they are awesome people, and some of my favorite people in the world are Mormons. Of course there are always rotten apples in any group, but I find them to be more committed to doing good for others than many other groups out there. They also tend to be very entrenched in their beliefs; I have seen some truly dizzying apologetic arguments come from Mormon scholars. I think this is in part due to the fact that they encourage higher education as well as discussion with nonbelievers, as opposed to, say, the Jehovah's Witnesses, who discourage higher education and only encourage discussions with nonbelievers so long as it is on their terms and completely non-challenging. As a result, Mormons tend to form very sophisticated and complex theories to protect their beliefs.
Mormons are trained to be nice to people. They are taught it before they go on missions. They have to be able to get inside your comfort zone. Think about it, you wouldn't let someone teach you who is being cold to you. Why do you the missionaries always offer to help? So they can "love bomb " you. When they knock on my door I have them dig a ditch and then ask them how they feel about a 40 year old man manipulating a 14 year old girl into marrying him. Ohhh. Woops. I almost forgot that was Revelation. Or sometimes I have them rake my yard and then we could talk about how Mormon prophets have said that the white race is is the only truly pure race. The list goes on and on of things like this that are hidden from missionaries because they are taught not to look into history and to never question. Guess what anything that is true can stand up to questions all day long. As long as you Pray, Pay, and Obey you LL be fine. Do yourself a favor. Be Leary of any group who doesn't want you asking too many questions.
They were generous with their time. I'm really impressed with Jenny's ability to engage genuinely (and extemporaneously) with these sorts of questions about a core belief. She didn't seem defensive and wasn't waiting to talk; she was charitably interpreting the questions and honestly considering them. Quite impressive and admirable.
I have to say I was raised Mormon and recently in the past few years have stopped believing in this faith. The greatest thing is I didn’t need any of these superstitions to live a “good “ life. Thank you for these interviews/ discussions you host. I’m so addicted !! People let’s try to live in reality and STOP thinking in terms of an afterlife. Let’s live life now !! Anthony thank you for all your content 👍🏽
I think that the cake is a lie.
I'm not even angry. I'm being so sincere right now.
What if you have celiac and can't eat it?
we do what we must because we can@@makaipost260
@@PeaSweetGina This was a triumph
. I'm making a note here: huge success
Patton Oswalt: sky cake!
Sky Cake g.co/kgs/JP1Joe
I love how passionate some people are about their beliefs. I'm throwing my chicken bones for a part 2.
Witch!!
@anfo_4241 calm down there muggle!
@@anfo_4241 th-cam.com/video/z5iMhHCGuOI/w-d-xo.html "who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?"
This is one of my favorites so far. I love that she started helping you ask questions. She seems like she will actually dwell on these things instead of overriding with indoctrination. Husband really needs to learn to let people finish speaking. Geez he was driving me crazy!
Fenrir the god eater It was one of my favorites as well also. Yeah, seeing her respond to the questions so favorably was really fascinating. Hopefully both individuals walked away from that conversation with some new perspectives.
I am so proud to be part of a community who is largely kind and thoughtful in the comment section of videos like these. That’s how the conversations keep going! Thanks for your leadership, Magnabosco. Another fascinating talk. 👊
What I love is that they confront their own beliefs without feeling that they’re being attacked. This is brilliant. Amazing!
Has a shirt that says Faith on it, what could they possibly talk about?
George Michael?
This conversation was very enjoyable. I don't agree with their beliefs, but I liked how open they were to questions about their beliefs. Jenny even helped repeat and rephrase the question to help her husband better answer the question, though he tended to give very long-winded answers that didn't really answer anything.
you once asked a Muslim girl what she would say to a Hindu girl as to why she felt that her feelings were correct and the same feelings the Hindu girl was having was wrong. that really hit home and I have used that line of reasoning myself and had the very same results. should have used it here
Deicide good point. But I think the 2 people being involved made that more difficult.
I completely understand what u mean ......but man I can imagine so many ways that someone can dance around that sort of question
he did right before 20:00
For mormons there's this idea of the gift of the holy ghost being conferred at baptism that gives them a greater quantity of more accurate feelings than other people. Anthony in particular, if he has had any bishopric or stake presidency callings, may think he has extra discernment that comes with those callings.
It's interesting that you decided to do the dual interview, I think this is a good example of why it's easier to stick with one interviewee but you're experienced/skilled enough to pull it off with two.
Anthony, I really liked that introduction to the conversation. You seemed to really put them at easy.
Secondly, what a wonderful couple. I appreciated their honesty, and they seemed like genuinely good people.
I hope this conversation gives them more to reflect on.
👍🏻❤️
you keep talking epistemology and he keeps talking religion. I think he's just chuffed to find someone that won't slam the door in his face
Deicide whoa good observation. I wad trying to decifer why he was so eager.
Well he is a convert so has a completely different view
Anthony you are incredibly good at getting people to put their guard down. It seems every times the first interaction occurs in these videos you can always just see the wheels spinning in their heads "whats he want from us, whats he selling, what political party is he going to ask us to vote for, how do we get out of this" and then they say ya we can talk for 5 minutes and you end up with an hour. Great job with this one and all of the ones Ive watched so far. These two were very honest .
Hey, thanks! I really like this talk a lot myself. Two very nice people.
To the Anthony being interviewed, If you're reading this, I would recommend utilizing the gift of hearing to let others communicate with you. It seems you're more interested in vocalizing thoughts you already have than to contemplate new ones. It also seems in your interactions with your partner, that when you disagree with her you just want to speak over her, instead of listening to her point of view. Take a breath and listen. Life is more "fruitful" when you allow yourself to discover new fruits that others can inform you of instead of just eating your own sour grapes.
Anthony's (The IL) inability to listen is REALLY hampering this interview. Jenny gets it. She understands the interview process and can think critically. Anthony really, REALLY, seems to just wait for his turn to speak and is eager to preach. I would love (and probably immediately regret) being a fly on the wall to witness their private relationship.
Anthony,
That was beautiful. I was a Mormon just last year (2017).
I think that it could be cool to talk about the DSM-V. An example question: I believe in the DSM-V, when it tells me that I could become addicted to Gambling, etc. so I've avoided it and have seen the fruits of that action, did the DSM-V come about by way of God or by way of people studying other people?
Meditation is also a good example of this as studies have shown marked increases in positive outcomes in the brain of those who meditate daily. Feeling good can stem from the actions of prayer (as Anthony, the interviewee, mentioned) but can he say, "Therefore God?" It's just another form of meditation.
My little brother left the church before I did and he challenged me to pray to God and ask Him if He is NOT real...I did, I felt the same feelings that I felt when I prayed to know if the BOM was true, though not as intensely (probably because I was quite a bit younger, thus more intense feelings, when I prayed about the BOM) but they were there and they were real.
Silly Point: As the prayer was said in my head Satan wasn't able to hear me pray and therefore wasn't privy on what my prayer was about and therefore, according to Mormon doctrine, could not influence me because he wasn't knowledgeable. Just thinking about what a TBM would tell me about that type of prayer and the subsequent feelings that I had in regard to such a prayer.
I felt the same way when I spoke out loud about Joseph Smith lying about everything he claimed was true...this one was a pretty intense feeling, though it may have been because I had more serotonin in my system at that time. That feeling too was real. I continue to have feelings about the church and its impertinence. Just like Jenny having feelings about the church but on the other side of the equation.
Bottom line, you are right, feelings really do mean nothing. So, I researched the history. I took a historical critical perspective and Mormonism, Christianity, Judaism, and all religions that I have studied thus far have failed the test. I believe that they will also fail the test of time as most religions have, except these now have written scriptures that are continually being translated and printed. That is the one difference from ancient religion to modern-day stuff.
But, now there are many more people falling away from Mormonism as ever before in the church's history.
Thanks for these videos!
I'm now an Agnostic Atheist-Anti-theist.
DSM-V? Are you a physician?
I think that was one of the best talks in a while :)
Loved both of them and the way you focused the interview.
Jenny was able to grasp the concepts, but I'm not sure Mormon Anthony was able to fully grasp things. Hopefully they spend some time thinking about it.
I grew up Mormon. I even went on a mission and to BYU Hawaii. What eventually led me away wasn't problems with the teachings or the religion, but, on my own, I realized that the LDS Prophet believed with 100% confidence that the LDS church was the one true church. But the Pope also believes with 100% confidence the the Catholic church is the one true church. The same can be said about every other leader of their perspective church. (Ignoring those that are just out there to scam people) I also realized that the only reason I believed in the LDS church was because that was how I was raised. After that, I stepped back and tried to force myself to become reconverted to Mormonism or abandon the church altogether. It could only be 100% true or 100% false. I told myself that if I couldn't start over and come to the conclusion that it was true then I would have to accept that it was false. After putting in almost 2.5 years of actively attending church, reading the scriptures (Bible and BoM), and doing everything that was expected of me, I concluded that if God were real, everything else that was taught in the religion was something that I could except. The one thing I couldn't get myself to honestly except was the existence of God.
I had originally planned on exploring other religions, if I decided to leave the LDS church, but since my issue wasn't with the church, but the the existence of God or gods in general, then decided that it was moot.
I never went through an angry atheist phase. I still really love the church and the members. I still sometimes even attend some of the church activities. If you did believe in God, it is actually a great church, great community, great life style. Yes they are weird, but so is every other religion.
I've known people from all religions over the years and I found Mormons to be the nicest people. In fact, one of my best friends was LDS and he would jokingly try to recruit me. He was a good friend (I lost track of him). Mormons never gave me a hard time about being an atheist, unlike a certain Catholic lady. heh.
well at least Hawaii is cool :P
Hawaii was Amazing. I loved every second of it.
I've found that if you start off as an atheist, Mormons can be nice. When you were Mormon the become atheist, however, they are a lot less so.
@Makai I can tell you right now that your take is wrong! The Mormon Church (Jesus Christ) is indeed the true church. Although I suppose that that does not exclude others.
I'm late to the show but I was excited to watch you handle mormons! I'm an ex mormon and have had so much trouble using SE with mormons (most of the issues are likely that I'm not good at it). It usually ends how your conversation did, asking the same question over and over them thinking they've answered it, except instead of food being the catalyst to end the conversation by that point I'm so frustrated (again - not good at SE) so they get frustrated too and we have to walk away.
I think you did great, but mormonism is somehow strangely intellectual. Anthony keeps going to doctrine because there's all these little doctrines to "answer" a lot of the kinds of questions you're asking but it can't be explained in a short conversation. for example, Jenny saying every religion has a little a piece of the truth - that's actually a teaching of the religion, not just her personal belief/rationalization. When you ask those questions and don't seem convinced by their response, he thinks that you just don't understand because he hasn't explained the whole shebang to you.
I think something that could have been effective to focus on is what Jenny mentions at the beginning - that when she does what the religion requires, she gets the promises/blessings, Jenny mentioned tithing as an example. You kind of got back to it at the end, discussing confirmation bias, but maybe an example of someone who did the action and didn't get the reward - for example say someone paid tithing but still ended up going bankrupt - could have helped get some reflection. You did a great job staying focused on one point with two people though, I agree with you and everyone else that if you had esp. Jenny alone you would have had a more effective conversation.
Also I think something that is somewhat relevant - a lot of mormons have a perception about themselves that they are truth seekers, many are constantly involved in studying their faith and trying to get past the "milk" to the "meat" of their gospel. I think it's particularly hard to get an opening for doubt since they are so earnestly engaged in reinforcing their beliefs. Probably just my ex-mormon bias coming in here though. :)
As for questions you missed, I don't think you covered the question of how you could test your belief to determine if it was wrong, but then I don't think the conversation quite got to that point. In my experience with Mormons, they usually do try to circle back to faith. They tend to have a very complicated belief system which is based on the acceptance of science and evidence except when it directly contradicts their beliefs, at which point they revert back to their feelings (or "testimony" as they prefer to call it). When I was a Mormon I often struggled internally with this, as I believe many others do.
Another thing that would be good for you to know about Mormons is that their beliefs are deeply tied to their identity. I know most religious people identify as belonging to their religion, but when they say that they are a Mormon, that is much more than a profession of their belief system; it is a profession of who they are. Their families are sealed together in the temple and their salvation is connected to that of their families- they are saved together. They believe that if they fail, then they will be cut off from their families in the afterlife, and doubting their religion is seen as a path towards failure. They believe they are the literal spirit children of God; not just that he created them and that they are his children in a symbolic sense, but in the sense that God is their father and that they also have a heavenly mother and we are their literal children. What they eat, drink, and wear is determined to a large extent by their religion. They sacrifice a lot to be members of the church; 10% of their income is just the beginning. They also are expected to sacrifice their time, talents, and everything which they have to the church if asked for it, and they spend a lot of their time and energy working for the church, so their commitment levels tend to be very high. It's not just a set of beliefs, and is more than just culture; it's their identity. This makes them very resistant to anything which they perceive as challenging their beliefs.
Something which I would suggest trying with other Mormons in the future, only because it was what actually worked for me (when I asked the question of myself), is to ask if they can think of any time when they felt the same feelings about something being true, but which later turned out not to be true. For instance, was there ever a time when they prayed about something and got a feeling that they received an answer, but which later turned out not to be correct. And if this is the case, why do they think they got such a misleading feeling, and then ask them to apply that logic to their original feeling of faith in their religion. This is big because their belief is heavily based on the assertion that if they ask God anything at all, then he will answer them, and that he will never lead them astray. This is the promise and the conversion process which Mormons use in the first place when seeking converts, and it is at the core of what most Mormons base their belief on.
It may be that they've honestly never prayed about something and gotten a feeling which later turned out not to be true, but I know for me this was not the case. I know for me there were many times when I had gotten a feeling one way or the other, and sometimes it would later turn out right, which I would use to bolster my beliefs; however, there were also times when it turned out to be wrong, which I attributed to my own fault for not being able to translate the feelings correctly. However, it does introduce the idea that if you can translate such feelings wrong, then how can you be sure your original feeling about the belief is correct in the first place? It could be very difficult for them to be honest with themselves in answering this question if this had ever happened to them, but planting that seed might still be a good way to get them thinking about such experiences a little more objectively.
Great video. I appreciate the respectful redirection. As a practicing mormon it was fascinating to watch. I wish we could bring more conversations like this into our religious practice. Yes, the impulse to practice a religion is based on unreliable feelings. No, there isn't any concrete proof that what you are doing is "correct". Faith isn't confirmation of anything, it is belief and intention for it's own sake. I feel like Jenny made a more rational argument by suggesting that the only way to know if something is working for you is to examine the "fruits" of the behaviors and see if they produce something positive in your life. I'm comfortable admitting that religion is irrational and that our feelings are unreliable but that is what makes me an outlier in my faith. Confirmation bias really causes a lot of shenanigans. I also think the need to be right skews people's ability to be objective.
But this conversation isn’t about if your religion is working for you, it’s about determining if it’s true. Her argument isn’t really rational, because he was asking about their methods for determining truth after they said they were 100% certain that Mormonism is true. Of course religion is helpful for some people, and I think that’s a valid reason to follow it. But that applies to all religions, not just mormonism. The real question is: which religion is true? They can’t all be true, but they *can* all be false. And if they’re false, their followers deserve to know.
I wonder if Jenny is still a Mormon.
48:44 - You're always cut me off. Interesting, as observers can clearly see that he making the "I can't wait to speak" face throughout the video and also cutting off often. It would be awesome if he could watch the video to see that.
It’s so awful. Being raised in a house with the LDS faith (it happens in non-Mormon households as well but yeah haha) the women were constantly talked over. Full-grown women. To this day. I hate the thought of future get togethers. I try to avoid them completely.
My all-time favorite @magnabosco video. I love these guys.
Another tip is that when a Mormon feels trapped they will start saying things like “Well even if the church isn’t true I feel it’s good for me and is doing good so that’s reason enough for me to stay”. From the inside it is hard to see the harms the church causes to outsiders because they are conditioned to only look inward. It’s good to know the harms the church causes. I almost committed suicide multiple times because I didn’t fit the cookie cutter mold but still strongly believed. We as humans are culturally reliable and knowing that in the end you won’t make it because god can’t accept you you can find yourself in deep depression. Honestly for me hitting that rock bottom let me question things because I felt I wasn’t going to make it so what is asking questions ultimately going to hurt. I found that it actually helped because I haven’t been depressed for a few years now. I do still have PTSD because of it though. Hopefully that side of me will go away and time can only heal that
Jenny: Let me answer that...
Anthony: Interruption..... Circular reasoning, rambling...
Jenny: Anyways what I was saying...
Anthony: You always cut me off!
That's what you get when you believe women are ranked lower than men 😂 I felt bad for Jenny
Bro this is the longest 5 min. Conversation i ever experienced. Lmao great vids. Wasnt expecting it to go on for so long. Though i am new here so it isnt obvious the type of content that is posted. Lmao. Keep up the good work.
This is my new favorite channel. It reminds me of the deep conversations I used to have with my old roommates. Really interesting and really engaging. It’s like Steven Crowder’s change my mind, except actually real lol. Keep it up man 👍
I took me 24 hours to watch this video but it was worth it. So many times I'd stop, think, maybe rewind, think some more, take a break, and continue. One of your best interviews.
A3Kr0n There is an option to watch 2x speed. That is what I l like to do on the longer videos. Get all the information in half the time.
The girl is clearly the smarter of the two
Really really good talk Anthony! Enjoyed it a lot.
i adore your style. very calm, and straightforward. not getting too hung up on semantics...just stand there, listen, and ask questions
That was well worth the wait Anthony. I do feel that Jenny may seriously question this before Anthony does which may cause problems between them. If this turns out to be the case I'd be inclined to draw the CES letter to Anthony's attention in a later follow up. I know that's stepping outside SE however I've found it's the inconvenient facts that resonate most with JW's, Mormons and Scientologists. Fingers crossed for a follow up, they seem like a beautiful couple
I’m an exmormon and I have an issue with the LDS church’s anti-lgbtq+ stance. I think that is a good belief to question mormons about (who agree with the church). The church’s stance does not allow/approve of lgbt members being in lgbt relationships or marriages. The church advises lgbt members to be celibate or be in an opposite sex marriage even if their feelings are lgbt. For members who agree with that, they must not have ever taken the time to think about the lives of those lgbt people and what a life like that would be like for them. The church says there will be answers from God once we get to heaven. I don’t think people should have to live a life they don’t want to live and be oppressed by this church and wait to die to find out the “truth”. That is a big reason why the LDS church has a high number of teen suicides.
The church should change their anti-lgbtq doctrine. Just like they changed their doctrine on polygamy and on racism (not allowing black people to be married in the temple or have the priesthood).
I think you would have had better luck interviewing them individually. When one started to say something that was slightly different than orthodox mormon doctrine, the other would speak up and bring it back to orthodoxy. So much of Mormonism is focused on the doctrines that I think they have a hard time considering the questions you were asking. There is also a huge focus on using the word "know" instead of "believe", that they tend to have a hard time dropping from the 100%.
Love this, we need so much more of this. Anthony, you're my hero.
Same. He’s brilliant, makes it look easy…and patience & rationality like no other. So genuine and comfortable - it’s just a joy to watch him work his craft. So inspiring. Anthony is a leader in helping create a world I would love for my son to live in. 🙌
That's amazing Anthony. You are so skilled in your approach. It is so enlightening to see an interview like this.
It almost confirms how deeply people really need these strongly held beliefs in order to survive.
I would love to read your eventual doctoral thesis that you would produce after all these experiences.
I'm so glad I got to be directed to your channel and would love to be part of these great discussions. I heard about you from reddit: exjw.
I usually enjoy these..... This.... This was unnerving. How do people not realize when they constantly contradict themselves every other sentence?????
BITE model. They’re not allowed the thoughts that lead to the thoughts that unravel their believes. How?
Have those thoughts, tell a friend, lose all your friends.
There. No motivation to have the thoughts. Humans are social animals.
Anthony, upon listening to your interlocutor mentioning drinking and driving when discussing the validity of feelings I thought of a good question to ask. You had been asking if feelings or evidence are a better guide to truth and they were having a hard time accepting/admitting that feelings are fallible and unreliable. What about asking about a situation where self-assessment using feelings is notoriously ineffective? Like you've had a few mixed drinks with unknown quantities of alcohol, you don't feel drunk but need to drive to an appointment. Would you rather trust your feelings or have a breathalizer provide you and potentially a court with evidence of your blood alcohol content? I'll be thinking of some more concrete examples for my personal quiver of SE questions. Thanks again for your continuing exploration of the foundations of beliefs and good-natured questioning.
Xentric That’s a good one.
Jenny is a life long LDS member. Tony is a convert. LDS born are often fascinated with, even open to, listening to others not of their faith to find out more. LDS converts are often filled with a zeal to share, preach etc. because they are enthusiastic, but also because they are often trying to reassure themselves on their decision to join. Repeating aloud the things they were taught by missionaries or recently taught them at church does this. You can definitely see who is the lifelong member and who's the convert with this couple. Jenny is trying to participate and reflect. Tony is trying to teach and project.
You are a master at causing people to evaluate their beliefs without pissing them off!
When Jenny Said: I think there is another name for it instead of "Feelings", The word was on her shirt?
Great video. It would've been more productive if Anthony disnt keep going off on his stories and tangents. I think he was a little confused about what you were asking. He kept explaining what he believes, but not really why he believes it. And a lot of circular reasoning. Props to his wife for attempting to keep him on track and repeating your questions.
They definitely kept this conversation going in the car, and most likely the entire evening.
Jenny was definitely the smarter of the two. Or at least more intellectually honest.
Anthony, i am in awe of your skills at this. I'm learning so much from listening to the way you talk to people. I love street epistemology!
I found this so fascinating. I really enjoyed seeing you lay logical declarations on them, having them agree, and then watching them contradict themselves and become aware of their biases
Regarding the issue of how to initially present what you are doing to possible interlocutors, I think that the way you did it here comes across as a more genuine description of what it is you're doing. Great job on this one.
It was my 6th video so far. I think this was the best, mainly because of Jenny: sincere.
Hope she's thought through all of her belief, came to conclusions that are leveled with her honesty and, not less important, she grabbed the f*** food afterwords! 😋
And You, Anthony, keep up the good work. Just met this channel because of your talk with Dillahunty about SE. Newborn fan from Brazil here. Hope doing the same in a while.
perfect video, loved it and i hope for part2
Hey,Anthony! I really appreciate your channel because it's so important to me to master this for many things in my life!🙂❤
Thanks for letting me know. Many more resources on the way. Check out these SE communities if you wish: streetepistemology.com/community#top
Anthony, yes individual interviews would have been more effective, but you did an amazing job with the two of them.
I love Jenny, she was open minded. They were both very nice though and didn't go into bashing. This is easily my favorite of your videos I've seen so far.
Great people, great conversation and the end really cracked me up - so funny
I first came across this channel only weeks ago. Unlike a lot of Atheist channels, Anthony's approach is markedly different. I love his conversation approach. He doesn't just assume he already knows the person's position. He doesn't shut people down. He gives people enough space to draw their own conclusions.
I think having a few snacks to offer as well as water would be a nice addition. Jenny being hungry may have influenced them to want to leave. People who have just taken a walk may be able to think a little bit better if they raised their blood sugar levels. I think carbs raise blood sugar levels faster, but I'm not sure.
I've never noticed that Mormons don't have symbolism that they push to the public. Interesting.
Mormons dislike the cross. Their temples have a spire, but never a cross.
I thought that at first, but then imagine how long the interview would have gone. It's supposed to be five minutes. I had to put the speed up a notch as it was.
It's because all of Mormon symbolism is in their temples, which they aren't allowed to share with the public.
I find it amusing that she brings up the people being the symbol. Because the second a church leader is caught doing something wrong, Mormons will claim that "the church is true and the members aren't."
I thought that the golden angel blowing his horn on top of their temple would be considered a symbol??
They definitely have public symbols (Moroni on the cross, pictures of Jesus, the helping hands symbol for disaster relief, etc). Also, plenty of non public symbols like the symbols on their garments (aka "magic underwear"), green aprons in the temple, secret (Masonic inspired) handshakes, etc.
This guy reminds me of my dad who was a convert to the LDS church, he felt so strongly that it was true so he loved talking and debating religion with people. He desperately wanted to convert people and get them to believe what he believed.
I think some very useful questions to ask would have been "Can you personally experience feelings that may lead you astray?" and "How can one tell the difference between reliable feelings and unreliable feelings?" .