the world needs to learn from this video. if you have an educational, calm, and reasonable conversation with someone who disagrees with you..you realize that you have things in common. respect of each other and love is what this world needs.
That's find to be civil to each other no question that is not a new way of thinking The problem is all you have to do is open up a dictionary to get the definition of an Atheist. I thought this was a throw down not a it's all good
I disagree. I think at some Point it has to be ok to say that someone is wrong. While I will respect you as a person, I shouldn’t have to respect a point of view that does not conform to reality.
There can be civility in this conversation but elements of the doctrine and actions of leaders within the Mormon church are unforgivable. Believing Mormons have made promises to support these leaders and giving their lives if needed to the church. They’re stuck in a cult
As an atheist coming across this video, I really enjoyed it! Great job! I’m meeting with a few LDS missionaries right now and I am happy to say that they are as kind and good conversation partners as you all. I’m happy to learn more and more about what the LDS church teaches.
@@mikelawlor1533 hey! Happy to update a few years later. The missionaries I was meeting with got cycled out over time, as they do, and the newer missionaries didn’t like talking to me as much, as I was interested in learning but not conversion. But I did just get together recently with the first missionary I started talking with when she was visiting my state. We’ve kept in time on social media, and it was great to get to hang out with her as a person and not just as a missionary. I’m still an atheist, and happy holding this view. I think I got lucky with that first pair I met who were happy to just talk about philosophy.
I have been considering Mormanism. This conversation gave me a peace in knowing that I will still be able to respect people of all religious backgrounds. I will not have to prove my beliefs to anyone other than myself. All that matters is that I am finding a faith that brings me comfort and joy, while also serving others.
I've been critical of you guys in the past, but I appreciate your efforts here to promote understanding and to hear out a view that conflicts with your own. Kudos, and thanks for giving atheism a fair representation.
I loved this conversation so much. I used to be on the christian side of the argument and now I have also become an atheist. It was so great to see this video and some of the beautiful reality of the complex and interesting conversations we can have between different religious beliefs. thank you for this video, it was so cool.
I finally more fully understood my son (who went from agnostic to atheist in his late teens): when I realized he saw it all from logic only. No faith involved. That really helped me understand where his thoughts were. Also, I had to learn to sincerely respect his right to choose for himself what he would believe. We have great mutual respect towards one another/our differing beliefs, thus preserving our love as mother and son. Also, he lives values of honesty, kindness, etc. in a wonderful way.....he was raised (by both parents until his Dad passed away) to be a very good person, and he is that to be certain.
I must say. It is commendable to bring an atheist on and have an open discussion. I'm not Mormon or atheist... I guess I would be a practicing agnostic if I have to classify my self... but I do love the subject. Keep bringing different view points on.
I am an atheist and I appreciate/applause this channel for trying to learn about all aspects of belief (or non-belief) and for not persecuting someone with different beliefs.
As a Mormon it's important to realize that other churches, while you know they have differences you don't agree with, have amazing truths that will invite the spirit and you can receive a confirmation that they're true, even if it's being preached in a different church.
Much better job this time, guys. Thanks for finding George and having a meaningful discussion. Greg Trimble may get you more hits, but this dispenses with the condescension and pre-conceived notions. I hope you will take the time to have more discussions like this.
Have to give credit where it's due. Good job facilitating an intellectual discussion with a proponent of an opposing view. A step up for lds culture, honestly.
Good job guys! This was a great discussion, and I'm even more impressed that you got someone who used to be mormon. As an exmormon I am unable to have discussions like this with friends and family that are still active in the mormon church, but I hope that videos like this will normalize having civil discussions in the future. Likely that is how it will be with the younger generation because of people like you two.
I just wanted to chime in by saying that "The Chronicles of Narnia " also has merits and can be said to illustrate truths , as inspirational literature . I expect that had Joseph Smith merely presented the Book of Mormon as being inspired fiction , the Book of Mormon would to this day be sold in Christian book stores . However , being that Smith asserted that it's another testament of Jesus Christ , this is why other professed Christians deem the BoM to be a faulty rival , and thereby of the Devil . I myself am an atheist , I suppose , but I have read the Book of Mormon , just as I have read The Chronicles of Narnia . I still am not necessarily going to feel compelled to become a Mormon , no matter how much I might have enjoyed reading the BoM , anymore than I would ever offer up worship to Aslan the Lion God of Narnia , just because I happen to like Him as a character . In my life I have learned that I can like people , without necessarily becoming like them myself .
What most atheists require for a religious belief is evidence. It is really just that simple. A religious belief has two general characteristics: it is an important element in one life, and also, it is probably based on an amazing claim. Generally, the claim is that the founder of the religion has had an audience with God and has been given instructions by that god. I do not think most religious people fully grasp the enormity of such a claim. Most religious people have grown up with the product of that claim their entire lives and accept it out of hand. They would never believe something equally amazing without good, valid evidence. Atheists apply that same standard to religious beliefs. As an atheist, I have been asked what evidence would be required for me to believe. After giving it some thought, it is evidence about equal in stupendousness to the claim that is to be believed. In other words, it is some supernatural event where the god discloses his existence in a clear, undeniable manner. The religious person often hearing this, will roll his eyes and respond by saying that a god will never provide me with that evidence, as though my requirement is too demanding and unrealistic. The fact is: I do not need a god belief, so if a god cannot provide the necessary evidence for his existence, then I will do the logical thing, and that is to continue to be an atheist.
Even in science you always start with a theory and consider "prior probabilities" and work from there eliminating that which can be measured and eliminated. D. Peterson says: As Sherlock Holmes said to Dr. Watson, "First you eliminate the impossible, and then whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth." - D. Peterson, Reflections on Secular Anti-Mormonism. 2005
Jimmy Dee I think you (by way of D Peterson) just used a fictional character from a 19th century book to prove the veracity of your possibly fictional characters from a different 19th century book Just seems like you maybe might not want to do that.
@@jimmydee5142 Actually you start with a hypothsis, and only if you find enough evidence that speaks for your hypothsis, it turns into a theory. In science and daily live, theory are used different. Right know, all the gods can be seen more of a hypothsis, rather than a theory.
Pretty good video, guys. It's good to talk to others and see what they believe or don't believe. We're all human and all have disagreements, but it's good to build bridges and love. Shout out to George Parker, very respectful and mature in your approach. Thanks, man!
An actually good video. Guys. Nice job. I'm an exmo atheist, and I just wish you'd handle church topics with this amount of kindness, honesty, and care.
18:24 - A good point about shared values. There is however one important value that you do not share: skepticism (related to the falsifiability point that George made). It might seem small but it dictates your process for discovering what is true - which is then the basis for all action.
Ex-Mormon, now Atheist here: This is jus an aside; I don't like saying "I don't believe in God" because, to me, that seems to imply that "god" or "gods" exist, but I fail to believe in them. I prefer to respond "I do not believe in a god or any gods", or more specifically "I have yet to find sufficient or compelling evidence for the existence of any gods".
Hey Taylor, Read this and get back to me. It may be a little heavy to read but I think it makes for some very interesting conversation. Let me know what you think. Thanks
I think the fact you say first and formost that you don't like saying I don't believe in God as your first statement as paramount! As a child born lds born Christian, and moved away from a teenager..... I still can't say lds is perfect.... But I feel your heart knows how you believe and I believe as much as I think you are, we aren't without belief.... Even if it would be a much less worry some way to look at the world and humanity
I wanted to be atheist, I told myself and still belief science is truth. But I also know many things haven't been explained by it, and even many can't be till this day...I'm just one thinking the rules the science of our universe just didn't happen by chance, and the more we learn science the more we can learn about our creation.... Which is what science is designed to do, I just worry by the time we get science on par to understand our creation truly, we will have already found and made ways to end all humanity and further knowledge
I can't see where believing in anything has done mankind much good, but with all the many near death stories and evidences supporting the Shrouds authenticity, I'm not quite ready to kill the menacing cockroach yet. Its like ya know he's there because he can be heard running around at night after the lights are out.
In other words, in George's point-of-view, it's a truth-information-testimony overload that made him burst into becoming an Atheist? I am glad he came on and is honest about why he became what he is now religion-wise or no-belief-wise! You guys have truly did a great job at not making this a chaotic dialogue! Kudos to the three of you!
Intresting covetstation its nice to see 2 diffrent stances both with open hearts and minds not screaming at eachother or not listening with one ear love your channel
One of the Mormons said that the burning in the bosom that is experienced by many isn't to say the whole Mormon religion is true but that some of the values within the book are. Sounds like this would discredit the Mormon church as being true if so many people from various beliefs can experience that over similar values. Why are they even still Mormon if they just agreed that the burning in the bosom isn't the shining standard on the truthfulness of their church.
exactly. is the book of mormon absolute truth or isn't it? does it just have good values in it that inspire spiritual feelings? well, so does Lord of the Rings. shouldn't the experience of praying about the book of mormon be very different or more extraordinary than other people's experiences with completely unrelated religious texts?
Theist: “A god exists.” Atheist: “Hmm... show me why you think that.” Theist: “My holy book says so.” Atheist: “Hmm... I’m not convinced by your holy book.” Theist: “Why aren’t you convinced?” Atheist: “The holy book is not evidence. The holy book is the claim. The evidence for a claim and the claim itself cannot be the same things.” Theist: “What about the (insert philosophical argument)?” Atheist: “I’ve considered that argument, but find it to be fallacious (flawed).” Theist: “So do you believe in Satan/devil?” Atheist: “I’ve not found any good reason to believe in that either.” Theist: You just want to sin. Why are you so angry at god? What happened to make you turn your back on god?” Atheist: “I also don’t believe in your concept of sin. I couldn’t be angry at something that I don’t think exists. That’s like being angry at Santa Clause. There’s no reasons to believe Santa Clause is a real person, so how could I be angry at Santa Clause?” Theist: “So you think there is no god?” Atheist: “No, I wouldn’t say there are no gods. To say there are no gods requires me to provide evidence there is no god. Im saying I don’t know if a god exists. You’re saying a god does exist, but I haven’t been convinced by your evidence or arguments. You’re claiming a god exists, and therefore bear the burden of proof. I’m waiting for good reasons to believe.” Theist: “But you just got to have faith.” Atheist: “But other people who believe in different gods also use faith as evidence for their belief. If a Hindu believer uses faith to believe that Shiva is the one true god, and you believe in your Christian god is the one true god, how do I know which one of you is correct? You both have opposing views even though you used the same method: faith. This shows how faith is an unreliable method for determining what is true/right.” Theist: “My holy book says...” Atheist: I understand your book makes many claims. I’m saying I don’t find good reasons to believe those claims. Theist: “Why are you so close-minded?” Atheist: “I remain open to the idea that your god exists, and I’m prepared to believe when there is good evidence or argument to believe. I think the current evidence and arguments are not sufficiently compelling. Are you open to the idea that you might be wrong about your god? There are tens of thousands of gods in the history of humanity and you don’t believe those. How confident are you that your god is the one true god?” Theist: “I’m absolutely positive. 100%. My god is true and I’ll never be convinced otherwise.” Atheist: “So why do you think I’m close-minded?” Theist: “My holy books says...” Atheist: “I understand. But your holy book is the claim and not evidence.
@@bloomygirl315 The idea Utu is conveying is that the existence of our world requires some higher being, which allows the idea of more than one. The fact that Utu believes it is one god is perhaps because of the unity between the structure of the universe, but that part is an extension of the first thought: that the complex yet cohesive organization of the universe testifies to the existence of not just a group of gods, but one powerful god who created it.
@@bloomygirl315 That's a fair point. In which case, it is an excellent proof simply that there exists a singular entity; and if existence can prove one, then it follows that the existence of one does not disprove an existence of many.
I wish you guys had just continued to ask him about his philosophy instead of explaining to him how he's wrong about the BoM. Just because it seems it would have made for a better discussion and could have been powerful. I wanted to know this guy's other lines of logic on his viewpoint. He seems like a deep thinker.
One thing he missed in his "Les Miserables" book experiment is that it isn't about the burning in the bosom feeling. That is just one way to describe one possible way to get a witness of truth. It's about the witness you receive from the Spirit. If the feeling builds your faith, then that was the Spirit's witness that it's true. If the feeling doesn't build your faith, then it was just a feeling. Much like the Old Testament example of Elijah seeing that the voice of the Lord was not in the wind, the earthquake, or the fire but was “a still small voice," (1 Kings 19:12) the voice of the Lord may not be in the feeling unless it helps you know the truth. How, then, does someone learn truth if we can't 100% lean on one feeling such as a burning in the bosom? It's a witness where your faith grows from an experience. When Jesus asked Peter who He (Jesus) was, and Peter said "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." (John 16:16-17). You see, it was the witness Peter received that allowed him to know. We don't rely on one feeling to know the truth; we rely on the Spirit to help us know. So it's up to the Spirit and up to us looking to God in faith to give and receive a witness. For some it may be a burning in the bosom. For others it may be something else entirely. But in the end, you know when you know, and it doesn't come from skepticism but from faith. (Alma 32). "ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith." (Ether 12:6)
When I was 13 years old I told my bishop I wanted to be a scientist. He threw my wants aside because I was supposed to be a homemaker. I’ll say I haven’t watched this whole video but my dreams where already slapped in my face as a teenager. Thanks Mormons for reaching me as a housewife.
You stated that ~"convictions are good"~. The definition of conviction is "An unshakable belief in something without need for proof or evidence." How is this a good thing?
During his prayer he was not asking if the principles of the book are true. He was asking if it was. So either god told him that chronicles of Narnia is true, it's just emotions, or that you don't think he is able to discern what the spirit feels like.
3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the wayside, and the fowls came and devoured them up. 5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth; and forthwith they sprang up; and when the sun was up, they were scorched because they had no deepness of earth; and because they had no root, they withered away. 6And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. 7But others fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit: some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, and some thirtyfold. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
I don't do religion because it's fake but I do like looking at your guys videos and I like how y'all can have a good dialogue and every can be an adult about their views.
I think the point about beliefs and values is an important one. Mutual tolerance and coexistence works perfectly fine if our values are roughly aligned with one another, no matter what particular thing anyone believes. The problem is that they aren't always, and then suddenly it matters quite a lot where those particular values derive from. That's why atheists frequently ask for evidence of religious claims, not just because they want to be a pain in believer's life (well, the reasonable ones at least). Beliefs inform actions, and actions have an effect on everyone. And if we let things like "I think that's what God wants" count as legitimate justifications for beliefs about what's good for society, we get into trouble because God apparently tells many different people many different things and there is no good method to separate truth from imagination in this regard. We should base our actions on what we can show to be true, not on what we pretend to know.
I'm an ex mormon turned agnostic atheist. It makes so much sense now. I think God was created by ancient people to find a reason for our existence. My stance on this is " I DON'T KNOW " I have no evidence that this creator existed nor that this creator doesn't exist
Wow - thank you for this. I'm not a Mormon and have absolutely no interest in becoming one. I discovered the 3 Mormons channel a few months ago just because I'm interested in the beliefs of other religions - especially the more secretive ones. I find the 3 Mormons channel interesting, but their obvious habit of making everything about Mormonism look cool, open, light-hearted, etc. just came across as phony to me, so I started looking for a rebuttal to them specifically and found this. Very well done. About half way through the video it occurred to me that you're the same guy who did the viral fake apology letter from the Mormon church (I didn't hear about it until after you had already taken the site down and never got to read the full letter; if there is a place where I can read it, please let me know). I know you apologized, but I don't think you should have. As an AA myself, it's just unbelievable to me that someone would voluntarily join an organization with deeply recent racist beliefs, and then get mad at the person who forced them to see that the racist beliefs of the church still deeply affects them.
A pretty good discussion! I grew up atheist and know exactly how this guy feels but I am glad that I have come to believe in God. Figuring out what religion or sect of Christianity is the right one for me is the hard part!
The white J Cole yeah, my entire family is pretty much agnostic, even my grandparents on both sides of my family. I grew up in a pretty religious rural Ohio town and I think I flexed my atheism as a way to debate people and show people that I was smart and that their unquestioned beliefs were stupid. It was not until college that I actually explored the possibility that there might be a God. Again, I am not steadfast in any specific Christian beliefs but I have read the Book of Mormon, I have read the New Testament and I have read the Quran. I've been on a mission of sorts for the last 2 years to find God.... and ultimately I have come to believe that there has to be a great mover in our universe. It wasn't any sort of overnight revelation... I just feel compelled to believe in God and I think that at the core of the Abrahamic faiths, there is something to it.
Stevie Wee it’s not about having or not having a natural explanation for the creation of the universe, at least not for everyone, but its the fact that some people experience things in their life that give them an overwhelming sense of something happening behind the scenes of our existence. I know a “feeling” isn’t a scientific argument, but many people aren’t trying to make a scientific argument. When you “experience God” it sticks with you and it is hard to shake off. That’s just my take on it. Not really comprehensive, but I’m talking about a small slice of the bigger picture for a theist. I was also an atheist, but eventually came to believe in God
This is a fantastic video that should be the benchmark for dialog between people of differing beliefs. Thank you for having this respectful conversation. I got a lot out of it
The other aspect of a child is he/she's a BORN ATHEIST. I don't know any atheist who would ever compromise their position on SSM or racism...just in order to "get along". IOW. You guys didn't bring up LDS topics that may have challenged this atheist to join together with you in some common cause and sing Kumbya together. (I couldn't help but notice the many edits in this clip, which makes me think that you guys DID broach those topics and decided not to air them.) What would it take for an atheist to become a believer? A personal visit by the Creator itself would be nice. If Joseph Smith was telling the truth, that's exactly what happened for him. If it can happen for imperfect Joseph, why not me?
I'm super late to this comment section but I LOVED this video. This kind of peaceful, respectful discussion is something that the world needs more of, and not just with religion!! I hope you bring guests of other denominations and religions in the future because this was so much fun to watch!
I laughed out loud when the one guy said he wanted to know everything. And studied everthing there is to know about Joseph Smith...and he's STILL a mormon...really?
There are people that know it all and still believe. My professors at BYU in the religion department, for example, or Richard Bushman. One of my professors, Andrew Hedges, was an expert on Joseph Smith's polygamy/polyandry.
16:45 & 17:16 These two representatives of the LDS church claim that Moroni's promise does not extend to knowing all of Mormonism is true. However, the introduction to the Book of Mormon presents a different claim: "Those who gain this divine witness (that the book is true) will also come to know by the same power (not by scholarly research, but by divine witness) that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah." 17:30 Kwaku claims that we remove a very important part of Moroni's promise when we stretch the implications of a spiritual manifestation that the Book of Mormon is true to mean that all Mormonism is true, but the claim by the Church in the introduction to the Book of Mormon is clear that such a manifestation does mean the whole of Mormonism is true. Kwaku, what "very important part of it" are we removing when we believe the whole of Mormonism when we receive a divine manifestation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon? Does such a divine manifestation not indicate that the church was restored in its entirety? 17:15 "If I feel a burning in my bosom, that means all of Mormonism is true - but that's not Mormoni's promise" Again I repeat the words from the introduction of the Book of Mormon. "Those who gain this divine witness will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savoir of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah." This is the promise the Church.
It sounds abundantly clear this guy had made an idol out of Mormonism. I won't lie- that's actually pretty common in the LDS faith and something we need to talk about more. We DON'T have the market on truth, and pretending we do is worshipping the church instead of God. This man is closer to God as an atheist than he was an unrepentant idolater. Blessings to him on his journey.
Jacob Reeves I dont think he doubts the church and if he did then thats normal everyone feels doubts but thats why its important that you have a testimony and that you feed its like brain
Being critical/negative is a character flaw of humanity, NOT a facet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Nor any True Principle of Christ's Gospel.
I am atheist and I try to have a respect for everyone, not only one religion. There are good and bad in all but what i do respect is the values of the mormon church, not all religions have that. To live a clean and loving life with your partner for life and having respect for your fellow man and treating people how you would like them to treat you is how I was brought up. For me, religion is the same as telling your children santa is watching you, they behave (mostly) and follow rules and that is how I see god. I dont hate or think that you're stupid for what you believe, I suppose I envy you, I envy you being able to believe, I would like to be able to believe in a god.
Can I object to the statement that young children aren't racist?? Kwaku is right when he talked about his Kindergarten Nazi classmate. I spent the first several years of my kids lives trying to convince them not to tyrannically force each other into conformity and obsess about differences. I had to correct many appallingly racist and sexist things my kids dreamed up constantly. And let's not forget how every single baby starts out- with such severe elitism they will often exclude every single human on the planet that isn't Mom. Kids are the ultimate bigots. Which is why adult bigots are usually just immature.
Commendable for you guys to return and respond to your earlier atheist video. In this case, George has the advantage having fully experience both sides of the coin. I promise you (as I once thought) that you will never be able to fully understand his position until you walk in the shoes of atheism. As one who has walked in both shoes, I can confidently say that Mormonism is lunacy. I can "respect conviction", but when someone has conviction in believing sasquatch, it is difficult for me to respect.
Wade Ouch! The problem is your prejudice is made evident by your stereotype of Mormons, "lunacy". Wow that's harsh man. You can "respect conviction" only as far as it easy for you. Not much flexibility there for a man who has walked on another's shoes. Tell me about your experience walking in Mormon shoes? Help me understand your point of view better.... I'm still hurting from the "lunacy" slap. :)
Not the people Mormons (I can respect), but the religion and dogma of Mormonism (lunacy). People often feel attacked when you challenge their beliefs, but I can understand that some people, like myself, were indoctrinated from childhood making it difficult/near impossible to gain true objective perspective. I grew up in the church in a very true Mormon family, served a full righteous mission to bulgaria, got married in the temple, and actively believed until about the age of 29. I would be surprise if someone told me something new about Mormonism that I didn't already know.
Ah great, that helps. Mind if I ask what was the trigger that ultimately led to you leave? Only if you feel comfortable telling me. I am not here to debate or try to "convert" people. I just want to understand where this disconnect occurs for my own research. I have a son who left the Church and I am trying better to understand and relate to him. If you would like, you can google chat directly to me at istnihilnot@gmail.com or here is fine as well. Thanks for your insight. It really helps.
Wade Robins Here is a video you might find interesting... Tell me if you have heard this before: None of this information was even available in Joseph's location/time. Got it pretty good don't you think? th-cam.com/video/3cAdTSjqR7M/w-d-xo.html
The existence of this earth is lunacy, according to the most recent science I have seen. Current physics theories, especially having to do with subatomic particles, would have seemed utter lunacy to the people of the 1800s. We should be a little careful.
"These values your reading in Les Miserables could be true though right just like the values in the book of mormon" so guy what your saying is that the values stand on their own and don't need a book to claim that's where they come from they just are true and morals don't come from a god?
I just discovered your videos! You guys are awesome!!! I so appreciate the subjects you bring forth. You are very brave and fearless. Thanks for what you do.
I love this channel, and I love that it supports fair, and good representation. However, because I choose to watch these videos, TH-cam suggests other videos of people slamming the LDS church. I love these videos and I wish that everyone would just recognize that although not everyone in the religion is perfect, that the people who do truly practice the belief are just trying to do their best to be good, wholesome, and understanding people.
i think its cool how all of you are different in multiple ways and still have a civil and light-hearted conversation, and you are able to laugh together.
15:00 The Les Miserable example is great. It is not a method because countless have that about their doctrine as well and while I loved this video and kindness shown, this is lost on some here.
The atheist assumed that praying if a book is true means that the book is historic. God very well can manifest the truth of the principles in Les Miserables. There are Mormons who do not believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon, yet are temple attending.
Nah, not really. That is just one part. I take some of my inspirations for values from religious textes. But I want to understand the underlying maxim. I go on with the simple society rules (like do not kill) as long as I don't understand them fully, trusting that someone else has understood it in the past, but I try to understand why (eg the value of human life, the respect for other life) and try to discover the "core values". So I dismiss a lot in the Bible as well. I am really into the approche of "I think this and that is moral behavior, like you can see in XX:Y." (and I think that the citation shouldn't be limited to the Bible). But I really don't like the approche "Passage XX:Y in the Bible says that so it must be true". First I wonder why after so many translation processes and changes in the languages you can still take it so literaly. And second, no matter how much the passage actually fits into my value system, it seems to me that it is not ment to be questioned and I believe that questioning the values we use is the only way to protect our morality.
The scriptures tell us there is opposition in all things. What happened in this man’s life that made him being an atheist. I guarantee it’s because he stopped praying to God and stopped reading the scriptures. You have your free agency. You are the one that determines your relationship with God. Many people saw Jesus perform miracles and they still chose not to believe in him. At the end of the day you got to own your own faith and belief...
Here is an interesting link that may clear up some difficult questions. It's all been asked before... www.fairmormon.org/answers/Criticism_of_Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink Let me know if there are any questions that are not there that you need answered. Thanks
What a good video! (And with such a pretty backdrop! Did you guys film in the Museum of Church History and Art?) I really like the takeaways you guys go over at the end. I believe there's good reason G-d allows us each to come from unique backgrounds and have to dialogue in order to really understand each other. I think it can very much fulfill His purposes and add to the love in this world instead of detracting from them/it. Thanks for having this discussion in such a civil way and really modeling that!
The LDS church definitely DOES claim that the Book of Mormon is "God's Word", and is, therefore, infallible. Joseph Smith said of the BoMormon, that it was "the most correct book on the face of the earth". LDS missionaries (I was one) are proclaiming that "correct" claim to the world...TODAY. Yet you "3 Mormons" are downplaying Smith's claim...saying that there are some good teachings/ideas within the book. Youse guys are on the slippery slope to apostasy. lol!
Gone Fishin" I’m not trying to tell you that the Book of Mormon is fallible or infallible, I’m not trying to argue that, but I’m just talking about the “most correct book” part. To me, in our out of the context of holy books or books in general, saying something is “the most correct” isn’t the same thing as saying it’s “perfect”. I’m assuming perfect = infallible. That’s just my take on it
Tolerance is the best :) Also, Les Miserables never claimed to be a historical book, that's not it's purpose. It was written very earnestly by a man with Christian values. Moroni's promise says you can know the truth of all things through that same power--so you can know the truth of the beautiful Christian principles in Les Mis (such a good book). The Book of Mormon gives you those feelings AND claims to be historical. Feeling that it is a good book or contains good values, it would make sense to seriously consider its historicity as well as the claims of the Prophet who translated it.
I think the point was that he knew le mis wasn't historical, so he experimented to see if he could have a spiritual experience, which would then disprove the equation [reading] + [spiritual feelings] = [historical account]. I like how what you said, though. With the knowledge that the Book of Mormon contains truth, it is good to then at least consider the claims of Joseph Smith.
So you mean to tell me that the BEST way god found, to confirme his existence to humans, is through emotions and feelings? Really? And then he decided every human would feel these things for various, different, and contradictory other beliefs? First if you gonna make such a dumb system, why don’t you, as the MAKER OF THE UNIVERSE AND PERFECT GOD, make sure the ONLY way to feel those things, happens ONLY when presented to truth? So let’s say I’m god and I know I’m using feelings to let humans know: hey! You feel that? That’s because it’s the truth! Then why would I allow other humans to feel the same things for an other claim? What type of confusion does god want to bring upon the world? Especially when you make this such a big deal that if you don’t believe the right thing then you burn in hell for eternity or whatever punishment depending on your favorite fairytale! Then why don’t make things clear? Emotions? Really? Feelings? Really? Faith??? Really??? Am I smarter than your god or? I feel like anybody on this earth would make a much better god than god (except believers lol) So even if he does exist, which I’m not convinced he does, he is certainly not deserving of my worship.
The atheist isn’t a bad guy, but I think he was looking for a reason to leave the church... I feel his “questioning” was basic on many level and any green missionary could have eaten him up the way these two men did... I’m glad he’s doing what feels is best for him...
Did god create science for men to understand his works which they did not understand or did man create god to understand things they did not understand?
Speaking to the learned and highly sophisticated generation in his time, the prophet Jacob said something which seems to be so often needed to be repeated today: … When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. … “But to be learned is good if they hearken to the counsels of God.” (2 Ne. 9:28-29.)
Good question man. What came first? The chicken or the egg? Science is based on law. The laws of nature, the laws of the universe etc. One can argue that God may be subject to the "Laws" of science to the extent that we can't understand. Yes he is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient due to his perfect knowledge and ability to use science to achieve his goals. He is not some mystical,/magical being. He is a God of science, laws and order who follows his plan without mistake. How could man even conceive of creating such a being?
@@jimmydee5142 Long answer, he can't because there is nothing that is perfect, not even in the universe. Perfection is the biggest illusion of our species, because you will never find something completely perfect. Partly because that perfection vareys from person to person, since it's a quite subjective matter. What is perfect for one, can be a complete misstake for another. And reading you describtion, god can also be nothing more than a computer, and all of our existence is nothing more than a programm, running just now.
At the start of the video George gives a definition for what an agnostic is. How does he define "agnostic" if he gives the definition for "agnostic" while saying it is the definition for "atheist"?
Hamann9631 agnostic people say “I’m not sure if there is a god, show me proof.” Atheist “there is absolutely no proof for a god therefore there is no god.”
I'm a better person as an "ex-mormon" than I was as a "mormon"...How do we get people to connect who are of differing beliefs? Stop tying one's identity to the belief. "I am NOT that which I believe!" Unlike what this song is trying to portray: th-cam.com/video/3PlyzaKkzTQ/w-d-xo.html For example: I am NOT an "ex-mormon"...However, I am a human and I would hope that THAT is enough to overcome bias, disgust, contempt, and a certain toxic tribalism.
My brother and I have been REPEATEDLY harassed, assaulted, wrongfully accused, framed, false imprisoned, KIDNAPPED, maliciously prosecuted, wrongfully convicted, and unlawfully banned by DOZENS of corrupt police officers and business owners, only to have our entire Mormon family (direct and extended) outright DENY our problems ENTIRELY and not provide A SINGLE LICK OF HELP to us to "right the wrongs" that have been brought upon us. So far, our family's "convictions" have done nothing but expose how bad of an "image problem" they have right alongside all the other yuppies who continue to deny what has happened to us. Think COGNITIVE DISSONANCE here people. Mormons -- at least the dozens and dozens and dozens of our family and extended family members -- have TRULY FAILED to live up to their reputation as the "good people" they claim to be. Mormons, when faced with REAL LIFE PROBLEMS, are not good people. Just our two cents. Have a good day.
By common values, do you mean stigmatising and discriminating against LGBTQ people both inside and outside the Mormon church? There is a reason why some beliefs must be challenged. TH-cam and the Internet are rife with ex-Mormons and ex-religionists who had to leave because their natural being was being denied by imposed belief systems that damaged their lives. I hope all three of the speakers will acknowledge that fact.
Chavah Bjork uhhh, I think you may want to check your sources on that one. Have an LGBT+ individual apply for employment at Mormon church headquarters or Mormon church owned university BYU. See how far they get.
This is something that bothers me a lot, I’m not LGBT but have many friends who are. I see that it’s common for LDS members to say they have nothing against them but then on the other hand say only if they act on these thoughts they are in the wrong - in my mind this is contradictory, telling those who are LGBT it’s fine, however they can’t act on their feelings, fall in love, love with their partners or live lives to the full is something I think must cause a lot of issues. Its so upsetting to hear.
@Chavah Bjork That is absolutely false and the fact that you are so ignorant of the true foundational beliefs of your own church speaks volumes to how indoctrinated you are in it. You're yet another person Straight-splaining their religion to those cast out of it.
"Atheist principles and ideology"? Well done, guys. Right off the bat you show you know nothing about atheism, which does not have "principles" and is not an "ideology".
Wow shocking that a ton of editing is used when the Mormons are challenged in the discussion. I used to be Mormon and would 100% tweak what anyone said to fit in my box. Once I got rid of my box I am too an atheist. Never looked back
God sets our morals, if theres no God in there beliefs what holds an atheist to a Christian standard of morals? God didn't do it to you Satan did. He believes in you still.
the world needs to learn from this video. if you have an educational, calm, and reasonable conversation with someone who disagrees with you..you realize that you have things in common. respect of each other and love is what this world needs.
A church that built its power on racism on Native-Americans. Cannot show respect or love to anyone.
This video is so important for this reason.
That's find to be civil to each other no question that is not a new way of thinking
The problem is all you have to do is open up a dictionary to get the definition of an Atheist. I thought this was a throw down
not a it's all good
I disagree. I think at some
Point it has to be ok to say that someone is wrong. While I will respect you as a person, I shouldn’t have to respect a point of view that does not conform to reality.
There can be civility in this conversation but elements of the doctrine and actions of leaders within the Mormon church are unforgivable. Believing Mormons have made promises to support these leaders and giving their lives if needed to the church. They’re stuck in a cult
As an atheist coming across this video, I really enjoyed it! Great job! I’m meeting with a few LDS missionaries right now and I am happy to say that they are as kind and good conversation partners as you all. I’m happy to learn more and more about what the LDS church teaches.
Cool! Thanks!
So nice a Atheist can be friends with a religion that exploits racism of Native-Americans .
I am Looking for your update …😅
@@mikelawlor1533 hey! Happy to update a few years later. The missionaries I was meeting with got cycled out over time, as they do, and the newer missionaries didn’t like talking to me as much, as I was interested in learning but not conversion. But I did just get together recently with the first missionary I started talking with when she was visiting my state. We’ve kept in time on social media, and it was great to get to hang out with her as a person and not just as a missionary. I’m still an atheist, and happy holding this view. I think I got lucky with that first pair I met who were happy to just talk about philosophy.
I have been considering Mormanism. This conversation gave me a peace in knowing that I will still be able to respect people of all religious backgrounds. I will not have to prove my beliefs to anyone other than myself. All that matters is that I am finding a faith that brings me comfort and joy, while also serving others.
I've been critical of you guys in the past, but I appreciate your efforts here to promote understanding and to hear out a view that conflicts with your own. Kudos, and thanks for giving atheism a fair representation.
Haha
I loved this conversation so much. I used to be on the christian side of the argument and now I have also become an atheist. It was so great to see this video and some of the beautiful reality of the complex and interesting conversations we can have between different religious beliefs. thank you for this video, it was so cool.
I finally more fully understood my son (who went from agnostic to atheist in his late teens): when I realized he saw it all from logic only. No faith involved. That really helped me understand where his thoughts were. Also, I had to learn to sincerely respect his right to choose for himself what he would believe. We have great mutual respect towards one another/our differing beliefs, thus preserving our love as mother and son. Also, he lives values of honesty, kindness, etc. in a wonderful way.....he was raised (by both parents until his Dad passed away) to be a very good person, and he is that to be certain.
I must say. It is commendable to bring an atheist on and have an open discussion. I'm not Mormon or atheist... I guess I would be a practicing agnostic if I have to classify my self... but I do love the subject. Keep bringing different view points on.
What is a practicing agnostic to you?
Agnostic and Atheist are two claims that are mutually exclusive.
I am an atheist and I appreciate/applause this channel for trying to learn about all aspects of belief (or non-belief) and for not persecuting someone with different beliefs.
Nothing but respect. We can get along even if we disagree.
The bald guy... He makes sense. I like him
He does, and the other two too!! Very great discussion!
@@tatiginattosantana hmmm this comment doesn’t add up
As a Mormon it's important to realize that other churches, while you know they have differences you don't agree with, have amazing truths that will invite the spirit and you can receive a confirmation that they're true, even if it's being preached in a different church.
If you receive a confirmation at different churches that teach the truth how are you suppose to find the one that is true.
Much better job this time, guys. Thanks for finding George and having a meaningful discussion. Greg Trimble may get you more hits, but this dispenses with the condescension and pre-conceived notions. I hope you will take the time to have more discussions like this.
Josh Weber agreed. I saw the other vid and was disappointed. This one is sooo good though.
Have to give credit where it's due. Good job facilitating an intellectual discussion with a proponent of an opposing view. A step up for lds culture, honestly.
Good job guys! This was a great discussion, and I'm even more impressed that you got someone who used to be mormon. As an exmormon I am unable to have discussions like this with friends and family that are still active in the mormon church, but I hope that videos like this will normalize having civil discussions in the future. Likely that is how it will be with the younger generation because of people like you two.
I just wanted to chime in by saying that "The Chronicles of Narnia " also has merits and can be said to illustrate truths , as inspirational literature . I expect that had Joseph Smith merely presented the Book of Mormon as being inspired fiction , the Book of Mormon would to this day be sold in Christian book stores . However , being that Smith asserted that it's another testament of Jesus Christ , this is why other professed Christians deem the BoM to be a faulty rival , and thereby of the Devil . I myself am an atheist , I suppose , but I have read the Book of Mormon , just as I have read The Chronicles of Narnia . I still am not necessarily going to feel compelled to become a Mormon , no matter how much I might have enjoyed reading the BoM , anymore than I would ever offer up worship to Aslan the Lion God of Narnia , just because I happen to like Him as a character . In my life I have learned that I can like people , without necessarily becoming like them myself .
I really appreciated George explaining his views without being argumentative, and also listening to Ian and Kwaku. That was a great discussion.
Real live atheists. Like they're really rare or something lol.
XD
"Not everybody is going to believe the same things, and that's ok"
This truly answers the question, who is your neighbor? Thank you.
What most atheists require for a religious belief is evidence. It is really just that simple. A religious belief has two general characteristics: it is an important element in one life, and also, it is probably based on an amazing claim. Generally, the claim is that the founder of the religion has had an audience with God and has been given instructions by that god. I do not think most religious people fully grasp the enormity of such a claim. Most religious people have grown up with the product of that claim their entire lives and accept it out of hand. They would never believe something equally amazing without good, valid evidence. Atheists apply that same standard to religious beliefs.
As an atheist, I have been asked what evidence would be required for me to believe. After giving it some thought, it is evidence about equal in stupendousness to the claim that is to be believed. In other words, it is some supernatural event where the god discloses his existence in a clear, undeniable manner. The religious person often hearing this, will roll his eyes and respond by saying that a god will never provide me with that evidence, as though my requirement is too demanding and unrealistic. The fact is: I do not need a god belief, so if a god cannot provide the necessary evidence for his existence, then I will do the logical thing, and that is to continue to be an atheist.
Even in science you always start with a theory and consider "prior probabilities" and work from there eliminating that which can be measured and eliminated. D. Peterson says:
As Sherlock Holmes said to Dr. Watson, "First you eliminate the impossible, and then whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth." - D. Peterson, Reflections on Secular Anti-Mormonism. 2005
Jimmy Dee I think you (by way of D Peterson) just used a fictional character from a 19th century book to prove the veracity of your possibly fictional characters from a different 19th century book
Just seems like you maybe might not want to do that.
@@jimmydee5142 Actually you start with a hypothsis, and only if you find enough evidence that speaks for your hypothsis, it turns into a theory. In science and daily live, theory are used different. Right know, all the gods can be seen more of a hypothsis, rather than a theory.
Pretty good video, guys. It's good to talk to others and see what they believe or don't believe. We're all human and all have disagreements, but it's good to build bridges and love.
Shout out to George Parker, very respectful and mature in your approach. Thanks, man!
I love how he really got into it's just a lack of belief and not a set of beliefs. Like humanism or Satanism.
An actually good video. Guys. Nice job. I'm an exmo atheist, and I just wish you'd handle church topics with this amount of kindness, honesty, and care.
18:24 - A good point about shared values. There is however one important value that you do not share: skepticism (related to the falsifiability point that George made). It might seem small but it dictates your process for discovering what is true - which is then the basis for all action.
Ex-Mormon, now Atheist here: This is jus an aside; I don't like saying "I don't believe in God" because, to me, that seems to imply that "god" or "gods" exist, but I fail to believe in them. I prefer to respond "I do not believe in a god or any gods", or more specifically "I have yet to find sufficient or compelling evidence for the existence of any gods".
Hey Taylor, Read this and get back to me. It may be a little heavy to read but I think it makes for some very interesting conversation. Let me know what you think. Thanks
which is what a-theism means.
I think the fact you say first and formost that you don't like saying I don't believe in God as your first statement as paramount! As a child born lds born Christian, and moved away from a teenager..... I still can't say lds is perfect.... But I feel your heart knows how you believe and I believe as much as I think you are, we aren't without belief.... Even if it would be a much less worry some way to look at the world and humanity
I wanted to be atheist, I told myself and still belief science is truth. But I also know many things haven't been explained by it, and even many can't be till this day...I'm just one thinking the rules the science of our universe just didn't happen by chance, and the more we learn science the more we can learn about our creation.... Which is what science is designed to do, I just worry by the time we get science on par to understand our creation truly, we will have already found and made ways to end all humanity and further knowledge
I can't see where believing in anything has done mankind much good, but with all the many near death stories and evidences supporting the Shrouds authenticity, I'm not quite ready to kill the menacing cockroach yet. Its like ya know he's there because he can be heard running around at night after the lights are out.
In other words, in George's point-of-view, it's a truth-information-testimony overload that made him burst into becoming an Atheist? I am glad he came on and is honest about why he became what he is now religion-wise or no-belief-wise! You guys have truly did a great job at not making this a chaotic dialogue! Kudos to the three of you!
Intresting covetstation its nice to see 2 diffrent stances both with open hearts and minds not screaming at eachother or not listening with one ear love your channel
Except that atheism isn't a religion. Just like abstinence isn't a sex position.
One of the Mormons said that the burning in the bosom that is experienced by many isn't to say the whole Mormon religion is true but that some of the values within the book are. Sounds like this would discredit the Mormon church as being true if so many people from various beliefs can experience that over similar values. Why are they even still Mormon if they just agreed that the burning in the bosom isn't the shining standard on the truthfulness of their church.
exactly. is the book of mormon absolute truth or isn't it? does it just have good values in it that inspire spiritual feelings? well, so does Lord of the Rings. shouldn't the experience of praying about the book of mormon be very different or more extraordinary than other people's experiences with completely unrelated religious texts?
$$$$
You respect him because you respect God and in turn respect yourself.
That was absolutely amazing! Great video!
Theist: “A god exists.”
Atheist: “Hmm... show me why you think that.”
Theist: “My holy book says so.”
Atheist: “Hmm... I’m not convinced by your holy book.”
Theist: “Why aren’t you convinced?”
Atheist: “The holy book is not evidence. The holy book is the claim. The evidence for a claim and the claim itself cannot be the same things.”
Theist: “What about the (insert philosophical argument)?”
Atheist: “I’ve considered that argument, but find it to be fallacious (flawed).”
Theist: “So do you believe in Satan/devil?”
Atheist: “I’ve not found any good reason to believe in that either.”
Theist: You just want to sin. Why are you so angry at god? What happened to make you turn your back on god?”
Atheist: “I also don’t believe in your concept of sin. I couldn’t be angry at something that I don’t think exists. That’s like being angry at Santa Clause. There’s no reasons to believe Santa Clause is a real person, so how could I be angry at Santa Clause?”
Theist: “So you think there is no god?”
Atheist: “No, I wouldn’t say there are no gods. To say there are no gods requires me to provide evidence there is no god. Im saying I don’t know if a god exists. You’re saying a god does exist, but I haven’t been convinced by your evidence or arguments. You’re claiming a god exists, and therefore bear the burden of proof. I’m waiting for good reasons to believe.”
Theist: “But you just got to have faith.”
Atheist: “But other people who believe in different gods also use faith as evidence for their belief. If a Hindu believer uses faith to believe that Shiva is the one true god, and you believe in your Christian god is the one true god, how do I know which one of you is correct? You both have opposing views even though you used the same method: faith. This shows how faith is an unreliable method for determining what is true/right.”
Theist: “My holy book says...”
Atheist: I understand your book makes many claims. I’m saying I don’t find good reasons to believe those claims.
Theist: “Why are you so close-minded?”
Atheist: “I remain open to the idea that your god exists, and I’m prepared to believe when there is good evidence or argument to believe. I think the current evidence and arguments are not sufficiently compelling. Are you open to the idea that you might be wrong about your god? There are tens of thousands of gods in the history of humanity and you don’t believe those. How confident are you that your god is the one true god?”
Theist: “I’m absolutely positive. 100%. My god is true and I’ll never be convinced otherwise.”
Atheist: “So why do you think I’m close-minded?”
Theist: “My holy books says...”
Atheist: “I understand. But your holy book is the claim and not evidence.
pretty much.
Yep
What's your point?
@@bloomygirl315 The idea Utu is conveying is that the existence of our world requires some higher being, which allows the idea of more than one. The fact that Utu believes it is one god is perhaps because of the unity between the structure of the universe, but that part is an extension of the first thought: that the complex yet cohesive organization of the universe testifies to the existence of not just a group of gods, but one powerful god who created it.
@@bloomygirl315 That's a fair point. In which case, it is an excellent proof simply that there exists a singular entity; and if existence can prove one, then it follows that the existence of one does not disprove an existence of many.
I wish you guys had just continued to ask him about his philosophy instead of explaining to him how he's wrong about the BoM. Just because it seems it would have made for a better discussion and could have been powerful. I wanted to know this guy's other lines of logic on his viewpoint. He seems like a deep thinker.
Really interesting and respectful conversation!
One thing he missed in his "Les Miserables" book experiment is that it isn't about the burning in the bosom feeling. That is just one way to describe one possible way to get a witness of truth. It's about the witness you receive from the Spirit. If the feeling builds your faith, then that was the Spirit's witness that it's true. If the feeling doesn't build your faith, then it was just a feeling. Much like the Old Testament example of Elijah seeing that the voice of the Lord was not in the wind, the earthquake, or the fire but was “a still small voice," (1 Kings 19:12) the voice of the Lord may not be in the feeling unless it helps you know the truth. How, then, does someone learn truth if we can't 100% lean on one feeling such as a burning in the bosom? It's a witness where your faith grows from an experience.
When Jesus asked Peter who He (Jesus) was, and Peter said "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." (John 16:16-17). You see, it was the witness Peter received that allowed him to know. We don't rely on one feeling to know the truth; we rely on the Spirit to help us know. So it's up to the Spirit and up to us looking to God in faith to give and receive a witness. For some it may be a burning in the bosom. For others it may be something else entirely. But in the end, you know when you know, and it doesn't come from skepticism but from faith. (Alma 32). "ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith." (Ether 12:6)
When I was 13 years old I told my bishop I wanted to be a scientist. He threw my wants aside because I was supposed to be a homemaker. I’ll say I haven’t watched this whole video but my dreams where already slapped in my face as a teenager. Thanks Mormons for reaching me as a housewife.
You stated that ~"convictions are good"~. The definition of conviction is "An unshakable belief in something without need for proof or evidence." How is this a good thing?
During his prayer he was not asking if the principles of the book are true. He was asking if it was. So either god told him that chronicles of Narnia is true, it's just emotions, or that you don't think he is able to discern what the spirit feels like.
3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the wayside, and the fowls came and devoured them up.
5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth; and forthwith they sprang up; and when the sun was up, they were scorched because they had no deepness of earth; and because they had no root, they withered away.
6And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.
7But others fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit: some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, and some thirtyfold. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
I don't do religion because it's fake but I do like looking at your guys videos and I like how y'all can have a good dialogue and every can be an adult about their views.
I think the point about beliefs and values is an important one. Mutual tolerance and coexistence works perfectly fine if our values are roughly aligned with one another, no matter what particular thing anyone believes. The problem is that they aren't always, and then suddenly it matters quite a lot where those particular values derive from. That's why atheists frequently ask for evidence of religious claims, not just because they want to be a pain in believer's life (well, the reasonable ones at least). Beliefs inform actions, and actions have an effect on everyone. And if we let things like "I think that's what God wants" count as legitimate justifications for beliefs about what's good for society, we get into trouble because God apparently tells many different people many different things and there is no good method to separate truth from imagination in this regard. We should base our actions on what we can show to be true, not on what we pretend to know.
a non white Mormon? did he not read the book?
Well I didst read the Book of Mormon , and I am reminded of this passage from Second Nephi ldssotd.com/2-nephi-26-33/ .
I'm an ex mormon turned agnostic atheist. It makes so much sense now. I think God was created by ancient people to find a reason for our existence. My stance on this is " I DON'T KNOW " I have no evidence that this creator existed nor that this creator doesn't exist
Wow - thank you for this. I'm not a Mormon and have absolutely no interest in becoming one. I discovered the 3 Mormons channel a few months ago just because I'm interested in the beliefs of other religions - especially the more secretive ones. I find the 3 Mormons channel interesting, but their obvious habit of making everything about Mormonism look cool, open, light-hearted, etc. just came across as phony to me, so I started looking for a rebuttal to them specifically and found this. Very well done. About half way through the video it occurred to me that you're the same guy who did the viral fake apology letter from the Mormon church (I didn't hear about it until after you had already taken the site down and never got to read the full letter; if there is a place where I can read it, please let me know). I know you apologized, but I don't think you should have. As an AA myself, it's just unbelievable to me that someone would voluntarily join an organization with deeply recent racist beliefs, and then get mad at the person who forced them to see that the racist beliefs of the church still deeply affects them.
A pretty good discussion! I grew up atheist and know exactly how this guy feels but I am glad that I have come to believe in God. Figuring out what religion or sect of Christianity is the right one for me is the hard part!
Tyler Wilson you were atheist? What was it that caused you to become a theist rather than remain atheist?
The white J Cole yeah, my entire family is pretty much agnostic, even my grandparents on both sides of my family. I grew up in a pretty religious rural Ohio town and I think I flexed my atheism as a way to debate people and show people that I was smart and that their unquestioned beliefs were stupid. It was not until college that I actually explored the possibility that there might be a God. Again, I am not steadfast in any specific Christian beliefs but I have read the Book of Mormon, I have read the New Testament and I have read the Quran. I've been on a mission of sorts for the last 2 years to find God.... and ultimately I have come to believe that there has to be a great mover in our universe. It wasn't any sort of overnight revelation... I just feel compelled to believe in God and I think that at the core of the Abrahamic faiths, there is something to it.
Stevie Wee it’s not about having or not having a natural explanation for the creation of the universe, at least not for everyone, but its the fact that some people experience things in their life that give them an overwhelming sense of something happening behind the scenes of our existence. I know a “feeling” isn’t a scientific argument, but many people aren’t trying to make a scientific argument. When you “experience God” it sticks with you and it is hard to shake off. That’s just my take on it. Not really comprehensive, but I’m talking about a small slice of the bigger picture for a theist.
I was also an atheist, but eventually came to believe in God
This is a fantastic video that should be the benchmark for dialog between people of differing beliefs. Thank you for having this respectful conversation. I got a lot out of it
This was a pleasure to listen to, thank you for making this
The other aspect of a child is he/she's a BORN ATHEIST.
I don't know any atheist who would ever compromise their position on SSM or racism...just in order to "get along".
IOW. You guys didn't bring up LDS topics that may have challenged this atheist to join together with you in some common cause and sing Kumbya together. (I couldn't help but notice the many edits in this clip, which makes me think that you guys DID broach those topics and decided not to air them.)
What would it take for an atheist to become a believer? A personal visit by the Creator itself would be nice. If Joseph Smith was telling the truth, that's exactly what happened for him.
If it can happen for imperfect Joseph, why not me?
I wanna see a part 2! Great job👍🏼
TerraCottaW yes. Part 2 please
Part 2 yes!
This is so great!
Great discussion guys. Thank you
I'm super late to this comment section but I LOVED this video. This kind of peaceful, respectful discussion is something that the world needs more of, and not just with religion!! I hope you bring guests of other denominations and religions in the future because this was so much fun to watch!
Ooof this guys face... He is biting his tongue tryina be nice and not spill tea. 😂
I laughed out loud when the one guy said he wanted to know everything. And studied everthing there is to know about Joseph Smith...and he's STILL a mormon...really?
He read everything the LDS church would provide him
There are people that know it all and still believe. My professors at BYU in the religion department, for example, or Richard Bushman. One of my professors, Andrew Hedges, was an expert on Joseph Smith's polygamy/polyandry.
16:45 & 17:16 These two representatives of the LDS church claim that Moroni's promise does not extend to knowing all of Mormonism is true. However, the introduction to the Book of Mormon presents a different claim: "Those who gain this divine witness (that the book is true) will also come to know by the same power (not by scholarly research, but by divine witness) that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah."
17:30 Kwaku claims that we remove a very important part of Moroni's promise when we stretch the implications of a spiritual manifestation that the Book of Mormon is true to mean that all Mormonism is true, but the claim by the Church in the introduction to the Book of Mormon is clear that such a manifestation does mean the whole of Mormonism is true.
Kwaku, what "very important part of it" are we removing when we believe the whole of Mormonism when we receive a divine manifestation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon? Does such a divine manifestation not indicate that the church was restored in its entirety?
17:15 "If I feel a burning in my bosom, that means all of Mormonism is true - but that's not Mormoni's promise"
Again I repeat the words from the introduction of the Book of Mormon.
"Those who gain this divine witness will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savoir of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah."
This is the promise the Church.
Haunted Myths will come to know is the key words......
You type to much. Keep it down
Exactly. The whole point is by the promise you know it's all true. At least that's what we were taught to teach as missionaries.
Yeah I think some people are reinterpreting things a bit differently from whoever wrote the intro to the Book of Mormon. In my view, that is fine.
Their discussion has really calm me down. Nice video.
It sounds abundantly clear this guy had made an idol out of Mormonism. I won't lie- that's actually pretty common in the LDS faith and something we need to talk about more. We DON'T have the market on truth, and pretending we do is worshipping the church instead of God. This man is closer to God as an atheist than he was an unrepentant idolater. Blessings to him on his journey.
Ian seems like he's so close to giving up the Religion. He seriously doubts a lot of things, but has to hide it because of his image in the Church.
😂stop assuming
@@Enesetonga I mean who would believe this nonsense?
Jacob Reeves I dont think he doubts the church and if he did then thats normal everyone feels doubts but thats why its important that you have a testimony and that you feed its like brain
Being critical/negative is a character flaw of humanity, NOT a facet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Nor any True Principle of Christ's Gospel.
I am atheist and I try to have a respect for everyone, not only one religion. There are good and bad in all but what i do respect is the values of the mormon church, not all religions have that. To live a clean and loving life with your partner for life and having respect for your fellow man and treating people how you would like them to treat you is how I was brought up. For me, religion is the same as telling your children santa is watching you, they behave (mostly) and follow rules and that is how I see god. I dont hate or think that you're stupid for what you believe, I suppose I envy you, I envy you being able to believe, I would like to be able to believe in a god.
Hey Nicola, Love the post. Very complementary and accepting of others. Do you mind if I ask what drove you to atheism?
Can I object to the statement that young children aren't racist?? Kwaku is right when he talked about his Kindergarten Nazi classmate. I spent the first several years of my kids lives trying to convince them not to tyrannically force each other into conformity and obsess about differences. I had to correct many appallingly racist and sexist things my kids dreamed up constantly. And let's not forget how every single baby starts out- with such severe elitism they will often exclude every single human on the planet that isn't Mom. Kids are the ultimate bigots. Which is why adult bigots are usually just immature.
Commendable for you guys to return and respond to your earlier atheist video. In this case, George has the advantage having fully experience both sides of the coin. I promise you (as I once thought) that you will never be able to fully understand his position until you walk in the shoes of atheism. As one who has walked in both shoes, I can confidently say that Mormonism is lunacy. I can "respect conviction", but when someone has conviction in believing sasquatch, it is difficult for me to respect.
Wade Ouch! The problem is your prejudice is made evident by your stereotype of Mormons, "lunacy". Wow that's harsh man. You can "respect conviction" only as far as it easy for you. Not much flexibility there for a man who has walked on another's shoes. Tell me about your experience walking in Mormon shoes? Help me understand your point of view better.... I'm still hurting from the "lunacy" slap. :)
Not the people Mormons (I can respect), but the religion and dogma of Mormonism (lunacy). People often feel attacked when you challenge their beliefs, but I can understand that some people, like myself, were indoctrinated from childhood making it difficult/near impossible to gain true objective perspective.
I grew up in the church in a very true Mormon family, served a full righteous mission to bulgaria, got married in the temple, and actively believed until about the age of 29. I would be surprise if someone told me something new about Mormonism that I didn't already know.
Ah great, that helps. Mind if I ask what was the trigger that ultimately led to you leave? Only if you feel comfortable telling me. I am not here to debate or try to "convert" people. I just want to understand where this disconnect occurs for my own research. I have a son who left the Church and I am trying better to understand and relate to him. If you would like, you can google chat directly to me at istnihilnot@gmail.com or here is fine as well.
Thanks for your insight. It really helps.
Wade Robins
Here is a video you might find interesting... Tell me if you have heard this before:
None of this information was even available in Joseph's location/time. Got it pretty good don't you think?
th-cam.com/video/3cAdTSjqR7M/w-d-xo.html
The existence of this earth is lunacy, according to the most recent science I have seen. Current physics theories, especially having to do with subatomic particles, would have seemed utter lunacy to the people of the 1800s. We should be a little careful.
"These values your reading in Les Miserables could be true though right just like the values in the book of mormon" so guy what your saying is that the values stand on their own and don't need a book to claim that's where they come from they just are true and morals don't come from a god?
I need to get in touch with a missionary
Love love love how you are all able to talk about these things so respectfully and maturely.
I just discovered your videos! You guys are awesome!!! I so appreciate the subjects you bring forth. You are very brave and fearless. Thanks for what you do.
Tracy Stout Behunin Thanks so much! Let us know if there are any episodes you'd like to see in particular :)
I love this channel, and I love that it supports fair, and good representation. However, because I choose to watch these videos, TH-cam suggests other videos of people slamming the LDS church. I love these videos and I wish that everyone would just recognize that although not everyone in the religion is perfect, that the people who do truly practice the belief are just trying to do their best to be good, wholesome, and understanding people.
Do You Guys know what the dividing line between Christians and Catholics is?
i think its cool how all of you are different in multiple ways and still have a civil and light-hearted conversation, and you are able to laugh together.
So cool! I love seeing good things in everything! I think we should totaly be nice to everybody
15:00 The Les Miserable example is great. It is not a method because countless have that about their doctrine as well and while I loved this video and kindness shown, this is lost on some here.
The atheist assumed that praying if a book is true means that the book is historic. God very well can manifest the truth of the principles in Les Miserables. There are Mormons who do not believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon, yet are temple attending.
Nah, not really. That is just one part. I take some of my inspirations for values from religious textes. But I want to understand the underlying maxim. I go on with the simple society rules (like do not kill) as long as I don't understand them fully, trusting that someone else has understood it in the past, but I try to understand why (eg the value of human life, the respect for other life) and try to discover the "core values". So I dismiss a lot in the Bible as well. I am really into the approche of "I think this and that is moral behavior, like you can see in XX:Y." (and I think that the citation shouldn't be limited to the Bible). But I really don't like the approche "Passage XX:Y in the Bible says that so it must be true". First I wonder why after so many translation processes and changes in the languages you can still take it so literaly. And second, no matter how much the passage actually fits into my value system, it seems to me that it is not ment to be questioned and I believe that questioning the values we use is the only way to protect our morality.
an prominent indian guy said when there was 30 million ppl, there were 30 million gods.
Excellent. Just about to watch, but happy to see you 3(2) Mormons take action on some legitimate criticism.
I really appreciate this video. Good job.
The scriptures tell us there is opposition in all things. What happened in this man’s life that made him being an atheist. I guarantee it’s because he stopped praying to God and stopped reading the scriptures. You have your free agency. You are the one that determines your relationship with God. Many people saw Jesus perform miracles and they still chose not to believe in him. At the end of the day you got to own your own faith and belief...
I feel the look in the atheist’s face “ these guys are so stupid” hahah
A cut and edited video of asking an atheist questions. Lol. Yet they deny requests to speak with other people who will ask THEM difficult questions.
Xtian C. Not true, he just hates contention and normally that’s what happens on TH-cam. I’m sure he’ll answer via email.
Here is an interesting link that may clear up some difficult questions. It's all been asked before...
www.fairmormon.org/answers/Criticism_of_Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink
Let me know if there are any questions that are not there that you need answered. Thanks
THIS MAN IS WOKE
What a good video! (And with such a pretty backdrop! Did you guys film in the Museum of Church History and Art?) I really like the takeaways you guys go over at the end. I believe there's good reason G-d allows us each to come from unique backgrounds and have to dialogue in order to really understand each other. I think it can very much fulfill His purposes and add to the love in this world instead of detracting from them/it. Thanks for having this discussion in such a civil way and really modeling that!
The LDS church definitely DOES claim that the Book of Mormon is "God's Word", and is, therefore, infallible. Joseph Smith said of the BoMormon, that it was "the most correct book on the face of the earth". LDS missionaries (I was one) are proclaiming that "correct" claim to the world...TODAY. Yet you "3 Mormons" are downplaying Smith's claim...saying that there are some good teachings/ideas within the book. Youse guys are on the slippery slope to apostasy. lol!
Gone Fishin" hopefully they will get there one day! I'm cheering them on
Gone Fishin" I’m not trying to tell you that the Book of Mormon is fallible or infallible, I’m not trying to argue that, but I’m just talking about the “most correct book” part. To me, in our out of the context of holy books or books in general, saying something is “the most correct” isn’t the same thing as saying it’s “perfect”. I’m assuming perfect = infallible. That’s just my take on it
God:doG
Man is to dog as
God is to man
1 John 4:8 ►".... God is love."
(An expression of true love is to sacrifice/selflessness)
Tolerance is the best :) Also, Les Miserables never claimed to be a historical book, that's not it's purpose. It was written very earnestly by a man with Christian values. Moroni's promise says you can know the truth of all things through that same power--so you can know the truth of the beautiful Christian principles in Les Mis (such a good book). The Book of Mormon gives you those feelings AND claims to be historical. Feeling that it is a good book or contains good values, it would make sense to seriously consider its historicity as well as the claims of the Prophet who translated it.
I think the point was that he knew le mis wasn't historical, so he experimented to see if he could have a spiritual experience, which would then disprove the equation [reading] + [spiritual feelings] = [historical account]. I like how what you said, though. With the knowledge that the Book of Mormon contains truth, it is good to then at least consider the claims of Joseph Smith.
So you mean to tell me that the BEST way god found, to confirme his existence to humans, is through emotions and feelings? Really? And then he decided every human would feel these things for various, different, and contradictory other beliefs? First if you gonna make such a dumb system, why don’t you, as the MAKER OF THE UNIVERSE AND PERFECT GOD, make sure the ONLY way to feel those things, happens ONLY when presented to truth? So let’s say I’m god and I know I’m using feelings to let humans know: hey! You feel that? That’s because it’s the truth! Then why would I allow other humans to feel the same things for an other claim? What type of confusion does god want to bring upon the world? Especially when you make this such a big deal that if you don’t believe the right thing then you burn in hell for eternity or whatever punishment depending on your favorite fairytale! Then why don’t make things clear? Emotions? Really? Feelings? Really? Faith??? Really??? Am I smarter than your god or? I feel like anybody on this earth would make a much better god than god (except believers lol) So even if he does exist, which I’m not convinced he does, he is certainly not deserving of my worship.
The atheist isn’t a bad guy, but I think he was looking for a reason to leave the church... I feel his “questioning” was basic on many level and any green missionary could have eaten him up the way these two men did... I’m glad he’s doing what feels is best for him...
Did god create science for men to understand his works which they did not understand or did man create god to understand things they did not understand?
Speaking to the learned and highly sophisticated generation in his time, the prophet Jacob said something which seems to be so often needed to be repeated today: … When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. … “But to be learned is good if they hearken to the counsels of God.” (2 Ne. 9:28-29.)
Good question man. What came first? The chicken or the egg? Science is based on law. The laws of nature, the laws of the universe etc. One can argue that God may be subject to the "Laws" of science to the extent that we can't understand. Yes he is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient due to his perfect knowledge and ability to use science to achieve his goals. He is not some mystical,/magical being. He is a God of science, laws and order who follows his plan without mistake. How could man even conceive of creating such a being?
@@jimmydee5142 Long answer, he can't because there is nothing that is perfect, not even in the universe. Perfection is the biggest illusion of our species, because you will never find something completely perfect. Partly because that perfection vareys from person to person, since it's a quite subjective matter. What is perfect for one, can be a complete misstake for another. And reading you describtion, god can also be nothing more than a computer, and all of our existence is nothing more than a programm, running just now.
At the start of the video George gives a definition for what an agnostic is. How does he define "agnostic" if he gives the definition for "agnostic" while saying it is the definition for "atheist"?
Hamann9631 agnostic people say “I’m not sure if there is a god, show me proof.” Atheist “there is absolutely no proof for a god therefore there is no god.”
atheism is a lack of belief in god or gods
agnosticism is a lack of knowledge about god or gods
Dang not first comment this week. But still love you guys!
I have to drink extra tall one to get through these videos
Love this channel
This was awesome, thank you!
I'm a better person as an "ex-mormon" than I was as a "mormon"...How do we get people to connect who are of differing beliefs? Stop tying one's identity to the belief. "I am NOT that which I believe!" Unlike what this song is trying to portray: th-cam.com/video/3PlyzaKkzTQ/w-d-xo.html
For example: I am NOT an "ex-mormon"...However, I am a human and I would hope that THAT is enough to overcome bias, disgust, contempt, and a certain toxic tribalism.
I am a confused religous person
My brother and I have been REPEATEDLY harassed, assaulted, wrongfully accused, framed, false imprisoned, KIDNAPPED, maliciously prosecuted, wrongfully convicted, and unlawfully banned by DOZENS of corrupt police officers and business owners, only to have our entire Mormon family (direct and extended) outright DENY our problems ENTIRELY and not provide A SINGLE LICK OF HELP to us to "right the wrongs" that have been brought upon us. So far, our family's "convictions" have done nothing but expose how bad of an "image problem" they have right alongside all the other yuppies who continue to deny what has happened to us. Think COGNITIVE DISSONANCE here people. Mormons -- at least the dozens and dozens and dozens of our family and extended family members -- have TRULY FAILED to live up to their reputation as the "good people" they claim to be.
Mormons, when faced with REAL LIFE PROBLEMS, are not good people. Just our two cents. Have a good day.
Man doesn't define what is and what is not Atheism. God does!
By common values, do you mean stigmatising and discriminating against LGBTQ people both inside and outside the Mormon church? There is a reason why some beliefs must be challenged. TH-cam and the Internet are rife with ex-Mormons and ex-religionists who had to leave because their natural being was being denied by imposed belief systems that damaged their lives. I hope all three of the speakers will acknowledge that fact.
Chavah Bjork uhhh, I think you may want to check your sources on that one. Have an LGBT+ individual apply for employment at Mormon church headquarters or Mormon church owned university BYU. See how far they get.
This is something that bothers me a lot, I’m not LGBT but have many friends who are. I see that it’s common for LDS members to say they have nothing against them but then on the other hand say only if they act on these thoughts they are in the wrong - in my mind this is contradictory, telling those who are LGBT it’s fine, however they can’t act on their feelings, fall in love, love with their partners or live lives to the full is something I think must cause a lot of issues. Its so upsetting to hear.
@Chavah Bjork That is absolutely false and the fact that you are so ignorant of the true foundational beliefs of your own church speaks volumes to how indoctrinated you are in it. You're yet another person Straight-splaining their religion to those cast out of it.
That describes atheism to a T-"a lack of..."
Celebrate diversity
"Atheist principles and ideology"? Well done, guys. Right off the bat you show you know nothing about atheism, which does not have "principles" and is not an "ideology".
Well that’s why they were asking to learn more if you immediately belittle someone for not knowing something your achieving nothing.
Awesome discussion! 😄
Wow shocking that a ton of editing is used when the Mormons are challenged in the discussion. I used to be Mormon and would 100% tweak what anyone said to fit in my box. Once I got rid of my box I am too an atheist. Never looked back
God sets our morals, if theres no God in there beliefs what holds an atheist to a Christian standard of morals? God didn't do it to you Satan did. He believes in you still.
I feel like everything the middle guy says is being entirely disregard by the other two