Street Epistemology: Kim | A Provoking Conversation
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ค. 2024
- San Antonio, Texas
Recorded: 2 July 2018
Released: 2 August 2018
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Audio correction provided by Philipp Grzemba.
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Summary: Kim thinks that she converses with a God, so we chat about that while her friend sits in the shade to wait and listen. The conversation is rather standard, but later, as the two return to begin their hike, something wonderful happens.
Mistakes: I wish we had explored the meaning of the word "apathetic" a bit more, to see if that label really does apply to Kim.
Please let me know if you notice any mistakes so that I can address them here for self-improvement.
Recorded w/Go-Pro. Edited w/PowerDirector.
The views addressed here are mine and mine alone, and are not necessarily shared by members of my family and friends.
#StreetEpistemology #Magnabosco #Christianity #PersonalRelationship #Faith #Trust #AnthonyMagnabosco
Not 20 minutes after watching this I took a walk and found a 2 Jehovah's Witnesses in front of the recognizable stand of pamphlets and thought provoking signs (do you have peace?). I had my headphones in and was going to just stroll by, but decided to go give SE a try. I asked if I could ask a couple of questions. The one I ended up speaking with was very cordial and easy to speak with.
I asked if I could ask him some epistemological questions around his confidence in a deeply held belief. I used the Ferrari method first to get a baseline. Then I asked on a scale from 0-100 how sure he was that Jehovah was the true God and religion. He was understandably at 100. I asked HOW he came to that conclusion (core of epistemology). He had an interesting list:
Evolution taught in biology class contradicted a pamphlet on evolution his church had given him. It just made sense that evolution was false
He prayed to know what he should be doing with his life, then had an elder ask him what he would be doing with his life. This, to him, was a divinely inspired answer from Jehovah and thus decided to join the preaching ministry
As he read and preached more and more, it made more and more sense
Doing these things brought him to a 100
I was patient and inquisitive. I would repeat back to him his answers to establish understanding. I then asked, "what if there was a Muslim that grew up in the Islamic religion and lived it the same as you had lived JW and read the Koran and prayed to know what to do with his/her life and felt they should preach the word of Allah, just as you have, and studied the Koran which lead to a 100 confidence that Islam was the truth? What would you say to that person to try and reconcile both of you getting to 100% confidence USING THE SAME METHOD?
I had the moment we all wish for! He looked up at the sky squinting in wonderment. He looked at me and said, "I don't know, that's an interesting question." I didn't tell him my beliefs or discuss doctrine or my opinion on religion. It was purely questioning the method that he used to be so confident and attempted to poke a hole in it.
Thank you Anthony for giving me this gift, you are awesome!
Paul Brown- how do you think atheism would hold up under this method?
Great question. Justas399 atheism isn't a belief system. It doesn't require faith to be an atheist. No matter how much the religious apologists try and and frame the insane faith athiests must have it just isn't true (1 because it isn't a belief system and 2 because there isn't convincing evidence to believe in the metphysical). Like the great Christopher Hitchens said, "faith is just fear disguised as a virtue."
Paul Brown- is atheism a knowledge claim about reality that asserts no gods exist or is it just preference claim that is just the preference of the atheist who prefers God does not exist?
Can you define what faith is by what the Bible says it is?
Justas399
Atheism is simple. You say there’s a god and I say where’s the evidence.
You say you have a personal relationship with him. And I say, what you see in your head doesn’t count as reasonable evidence for anyone else.
That’s all atheism is.
“That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence”.
Teresa Amanfu what would count as evidence for God and why?
Her argument was, "i cover my ears and say LaLaLaLa and anyone else who found their god to be true through the same method i did isnt valid except for mine. "
She seemed to almost realize that the outsider test for the Hindu woman was going to be a glaring problem for her own beliefs and preemptively shut down the thought process with either "I don't care about the other person" or typical bible/relationship/religious retorts in order to avoid confronting the ensuing mental paradox.
You can see her scramble to push out the doubt. I used to see this all the time with a Pentecostal friend I grew up with. We'd talk about religion and he'd get very agitated and just refuse to think or talk about something more once I had trapped him logically. Sometimes it would backfire, it is a dangerous place to put a person. Tread lightly when someone seems to be wrestling inside over something you said.
I saw Kim’s Bible retorts as her using the “illusory truth effect” (repetition) to ease her cognitive dissonance. I would also unpack her “I don’t care” response, as “I don’t care to think about it, if it doesn’t confirm my belief”. In other words, it’s confirmation bias in the form of declaring disconfirming information as irrelevant or unworthy of consideration.
"You can feel them ready to explode."
It's strange that this is the reaction when they realize they're trapped. If they were thinking rationally the conclusion is very clear, they would have to start doubting their beliefs. But they just dishonestly refuse to accept the conclusion while it's staring at them in the face and they know it. I guess it leads to the fight or flight instinct and at that moment they just shut down the conversation because they've realized that they're vulnerable, even though it's just their beliefs that are vulnerable.
I was very surprised at her reaction to not care about the other person. I know Christianity tells her that the other person needs to be saved from Hell so that was quite unchristian actually...
Perfectly said Cubik.
Katalyzt
Cognative dissonance is known to cause emotional outbursts.
Her not wanting to think about it is due to her cognitive dissonance kicking in.
She knows that the Hindu uses the same (faith and personal experience) reasons for their belief and that's a big problem.
It demonstrates that faith and personal experience are unreliable and she doesn't want to have to deal with that realisation.
She can't even bring herself to be hypothetically empathetic
The one thing which had to be frustrating to Anthony - I know it was for me - is that Kim didn't seem to get the point about if this Hindu woman had reached a different, perhaps even contradictory, conclusion based on _the same line of reasoning_ as herself, what that says about her reasoning. I've seen you use this approach before, with varying degrees of success. It is nice to see when it clicks with someone and suddenly they pause as it starts to sink it to them.
Anyway, keep up the good work!
yeah, I really came to my conclusion of God because I first had this disbelief, and then watched more people with their point on view on God, that maked my opinion stronger, If I was believing I would never challenge my believe
Right, her saying I don't care is the wall she was throwing up to avoid that cognitive dissonance.
Hypothetically Empathetic....brilliant name for a chick band.
What about this: what if we took on the idea that it doesnt matter. For the sake of argument, we would have to provoke them to think about (instead of her method for how they came to the belief) instead to cause them to think about it in a way that helps the interlocutor to question why the other person who used the same methodology has an equally weak epistemology...also because the gods are different this makes it hard to get the interlocutor to see why the gods/differences in religion matter less than the method being used to arrive at their conclusions...just a thought
If she knew the HIndu woman for 25 years would she then accept that the friend was having experiences as convincing as her own?
Beej Price GREAT QUESTION!!
Almost an oxymoron. =) How could they. And that's the problem and the sadness of the world. Your thinking is a gem. WD good sir. (Why religion poisons everything) rip.
Beej Price It’s the scripture that hypnotizes them when they read “I am the way”. I have many other Christians who are very faithful and cannot see another point of view because Christianity has very deftly convinced them that there’s no other possibility. It’s Jesus or hell. Which would you choose?
13:44 I believe she is wasting her time." Can someone get me a chainsaw? the irony is getting really thick!
Broth3r John How come?
She got emotional at the end. This was a clear sign of cognitive dissonance. Hopefully her confirmation bias loosens.
Devil's Advocate I’ve deployed the Socratic method on numerous right wingers and have gotten a few of them to break out with the emotional “I just don’t care” outburst. The people closest to them seem more affected by it than them. The look of disgust on this one woman’s face was like she had just heard how her husband of 40 years has been kidnapping and torturing children
Left and right wingers both have some dumb views. It works on either side of the isle.
@@jasongallman2032 "dumb" is subjective
@@jasongallman2032no need to defend yourself you’re not being attacked 😂
@@gking407 I'm not.
The very enthusiastic but measured "Fuck yeah!" made me laugh, but I completely understand. Lol
It made me so happy. xD
Finish strong... great!
I laughed out loud at that as I was sharing his joy. It was a perfect punctuation 👌🏻
Love the color coded subtitles. It is a little improvement but it is a great implementation.
Scot McDonald A huge pain to edit that way, but I think worth it. Thanks!
Since Kim is a teacher, it would have been interesting to frame the process of SE as being similar to asking a student to "check their work" after completing a math problem. Examples that your IL can relate to based on their background are more likely to hit their mark. Loved the talk - especially the intensity with which you enjoyed that victory Tic Tac!
That's a good one. Yes, one may be confident after 'solving' the problem and reaching your conclusion but check your process. That's SE in a nutshell. Well framed.
Dont do that, it could lead to a question about how certain you are that numbers exist.
@@jeffreybailey2442: and what would be wrong with that? Indeed, I believe Jade of Up and Atom (youtube channel) may soon have a video that talks about that, in a way... Talking about Russell's Paradox, anyway... see plato.stanford.edu/entries/russell-paradox/ -- or her next video, whenever that may come out.
Sure, probably not a super enlightening conversation to have with a 6 year old, but... why shouldn't they ask the question? And why shouldn't an adult take it seriously, in certain ways?
@@DavidLindes Heh arguably numbers don't exist certainly there are discreet things in the world which often cluster into groups that can be described by a number. But arguably numbers are an arbitrary shorthand of human invention after all you technically could describe sets of items by listing each instance individually and say that there is cow, cow, cow, cow, cow, sheep, sheep and sheep in the field but that involves excessive redundancy even by natural language standards, though the finite vocabulary a human can realistically learn precludes simply giving every possibly quantity a unique label unless you figure out a way to drastically reduce the vocabulary necessary to use it a systematic nomenclature for quantities is ideal for that which is basically what the human concept of numbers is. Heh arguably no different to the solution we were forced to use in chemistry also as turns out that hairless ape brains are not so great at learning names for the mind-boggling variety of organic molecules we were documenting so we had to think smarter and devise a way to name them with an ape friendly vocabulary of limited words.
Seraphina : indeed. And that's not even considering negative numbers, or fractions... or zero... or (*gasp*!) the irrational numbers (about the existence of which Pythagoras himself is said to have killed -- he asserted they didn't exist!)...
I noticed that she misapplied the word "faith" to things like government, food, and "everything", but when Anthony brought up the Ferrari immediately afterwards she said, "Why would I have faith in YOU? I don't even know you." That's pretty durn inconsistent.
Red Hunteur Great catch. Yes, I noticed that during the editing process. Inconsistent and so soon after she said otherwise.
I think what she may mean is she has trust in the government, food and what she refers to as "everything" because she is more familiar with those things than to Anthony, because she "does not know" him. This could be because what she mentions (government, food...) are most likely important to her day to day life, while Anthony and his claim that he has a Ferrari isn't very important to her day to day life.
I listened to the podcast version of this chat and was able to make an aural observation...when faith is mentioned, Kim seems to start speaking in a “churchly” voice, almost preachy. Right after Anthony brings it back to the Ferrari thought experiment...Kim goes back to her regular voice. I just thought it was neat. Maybe key words drum up feelings and mannerisms or something.
Interesting. I'm going to watch it again soon as I didn't pick up on that.
There's only one way to defend faith...
When you took her far enough down the logic road she started to feel uncomfortable and stated she does not care.. When your world view is so limited it's hard to impact those type of people.. Actually earlier than that at the beginning when she said she has lots of conversations with God .. back forth with him all the time.. That is a tough thing to start with.. good job..
tt However, during editing I was reminded of her desire to seek out a variety of perspectives when listening to podcasts. Why would she do that if she didn’t value truth at some level? I wish I had remembered that earlier banter and incorporated that into our conversation later.
Indeed... it's hard to remember everything when you are on the spot.. .. your non-confrontational style is your trade mark.. that is so hard to do.. also I notice woman are so much easier to talk to.. they tend to be more open minded and willing to listen and consider what the other person is saying.. You could say they are more evolved in this sense.. lol and I am a man..
When she claimed “she didn’t care” spoke volumes.
tt , great point you have made. I don’t care... she said. is that in reality what Christ taught? In reality this is the myopic view that many modern Christians seem to have... it’s all “personal”. I don’t see your pain and suffering so... I don’t need to care.
"I know the truth."
"I don't care what she believes."
"It doesn't matter."
Yeah, that says it all.
P.S. The "fuck yeah" almost made me spray my soda. Great job Anthony.
On a scale of 0-100 I'm at about a 1 that you "nearly sprayed your soda"
"I don't have faith in you, I don't know you" which means that she needs to know the person before having faith.
"I have faith in God" which means that she knew it before, then started developing that faith.
"I know god exist because of faith" which means that she had faith before she started to know god
Yet, she doesn't registered what she has said, or the fact that it's contradictory.
So I guess the question to ask would have been "you don't have faith in me because you don't know me, that means you feel the need to know the person before having faith in that person, right ? Then did you know god before having faith in him ? And if so, how ?"
It doesnt matter to them, the belief is more important than how they got there.
@@iogssothoth666 I wish Anthony prepared this more
@@Sammie551 well, those things can't really be prepared. You never know what the next person is going to say. You have to pay a lot of attention to what the other is saying, and then, there's a lot of experience playing into reacting the right way.
@@iogssothoth666 True
☝🏻Another one still looking at the shadows inside the cave.
It's so fun to watch adults talk about their favorite imaginary friend(s) and how real they are compared to other adults imaginary friend(s). It's hilarious and sad at the same time...
Why is human sacrifice readily accepted by adults in this day and age?
I'll bite: what are you talking about?
propoeide The entire basis/reason of Christianity.
Ah, yeah. I'm sure some Christians would say something like "God sacrificed Himself through His Son so others don't have to be sacrificed for their Sin, as long as they have faith in Him". The endlessly possible interpretations of mythological themes like this (I prefer Odin hanging and piercing himself so he could reach the runes of magic) are a fine shield against any skeptical inquiry.
My own personal favorite is the story of that Satyr called Marsyas who was hung from a tree and was flayed alive after he challenged Apollo in a music contest and lost. If you're going to hang grotesque images of hanging, bleeding, dead people through your home and above your entrances to keep the family safe and keep the kids happy, I would go with this one. Satyrical Satyrs are indeed the best weapon against nonsense.
I didn't think this talk was uneventful at all. I really enjoyed it. I also think she sees the flaws in her logic but clearly doesn't want to admit it.
6:00 Never seen this before, it's weird how it got me nervous and my heart rate up even though it's such a calm and relaxing video. I've had so many negative experiences with people who have intense religious beliefs, including my parents, that even if I remain calm on the Outside, Inside I still have this fear of judgement. Often just being the one to remain calm brings the conversation back to reasonable level but it still stresses me out so bad.
Even taking into account my fear, I would love to do something like this where I live, so I can better understand people who differ from me.
o0Avalon0o i’m a little unclear what you’re exactly talking about at the six minute mark that made you nervous. The idea of starting a conversation with somebody about a topic like that? Setting up a camera to do so?
No i totally get you. At the start of the conversation when she says "He's alive and real to me" and talks about how she converses with God like she does her friend, is scary. The anxiety comes from the experience of religious people blowing up in anger after challenging their beliefs.
Anthony Magnabosco id like to say i appreciate what you do, seeing your talks and POV has helped. I always thought "firebrand" atheism worked the best but after having my first public discussion with someone i realized the emphasis on being cordial and inquisitive as opposed to direct challenges with tone helps a lot.
I do not want to mimic the zealousness that comes from deeply held beliefs.
o0Avalon0o, very well put. When faced with extremists it’s very hard to even reason. Try it on JWs... they can be found doing cart preaching in most towns. They truly need help to reason on their myopic beliefs. Get back if you want a list of great questions to ask them.
Good one! Two girls In a bathroom always come out with a two hour conversation. Lol.
This was great and I think the fact the friend was hovering in the background was key and will keep the conversation with Kim going for a long time. You were talking with two people while only interacting with one - yet left an impact on both. Well done.
wow man. Your method is really well formated. You have a very good procedure! Congratulations!
I loved how this triggered their subsequent conversation. That's a great result.
I don't think her "I don't care" statement was because she's self-centred. I think by saying she doesn't care, it's more about having no "skin in the game" rather than indifference.
I read it as she’d rather not think about that uncomfortable reality.
Love how the secondary conversation got started while you were still recording. Your heartfelt reaction to it is even more priceless, thanks Anthony.
"The part thats sad to me is that I think she is wasting her time" She is so close to getting it, and is currently holding contradictory beliefs. damn this IS provoking.
It scares me that people like this teach children.
I believe you meant "indoctrinate people".....
Take heart. There are many secular /atheist teachers (like me). While I don't discuss religion, I do give them the tools for critical thinking.
I'm a teacher, this woman should NEVER be in a classroom!! This was deeply disturbing
@@KeatrithAmakiir I personally know teachers that do not believe that evolution is true and they do NOT believe children should be taught it. Frustrating as hell.
@@seanjones2456 I have also heard of those, though thankfully never (knowingly) met one! If you are opposed to science you should not be allowed in a classroom (regardless of the subject you teach). Reality is not up to anyone's opinion...
That was a great talk Anthony! :D
I loved this video! Anthony, to see that "F yeah!" at the end was so cool! Thank you for all of your work! I used to struggle with people who I had difference of opinion, anger, frustration, feelings of superiority, and I f'n hated it! SE is helping me to be a calmer and understanding person. I don't know if you'll ever read this but, thank you Anthony!
Thank you so much Anthony, I'm learning a lot from all of your videos. I've always loved debating/discussing in a friendly manner, and now I'm trying to implement some street epistemology into my conversations. Even with almost zero experience with street epistemology, I can see that I make a much bigger impact on people with far less effort from my side. That's awesome.
She's a teacher, ohhhh noooo!
I agree, it's scary...
What if Anthony started the conversation with "it scares me that you teach children"? Do you think she'd have started having a conversation with her friend 20 minutes later about what constitutes good confidence that beliefs are true? This is the internet. What if she found this video and saw your comment?
@@RobotProctor she is clearly the type of person to never question her beliefs, even if she has 0 reasoning behind them and she is fully aware of that. it boils down to the fact that she has to much pride to even consider something else or question her own thoughts. i actually agree, the thought of her teaching children actually scares me as well. she does not seem reasonable or a good role model. with that said, i actually agree with you though.you guys need to be respectful in these comments. don't just say whatever comes to mind.
Ernis Eki Avdic its not so scary
Most teaching throughout history is holding knowledge for transfering to another
It’s actually very rare to find educaters in the sense most people think
@@RobotProctor +
Anthony, This is exactly why I support you.
You are amazing!! This is exactly what I have been looking for. I love watching professional debates but they dont do allot to help me in every day life. This is exactly the type of thinking that I needed to see and learn to harness for myself and people around me.
The fact that you dont engage the arguments and only ask questions to open a person to logical rational thinking is what my newly discovered lack of belief in any god needs. THANK YOU!
The “fuck yeah” and well deserved tic tac swig was the best part!
Also continuing to go back to the Ferrari throughout made an impact.
always boils down to faith, the most dishonest position to hold. And anyone who claims to have seriously studied the bible and remained (or converted to) Christian is either cherry picking or morally bankrupt. her brainwashing is total.
16:30 You can't use rationality to understand it. You have to study and believe it to know that it is true.
I want to be nice to you and not say what I'm thinking. I would be upset if I found out that you were my daughters teacher.
truth is not an individual experience.
16:23"I don't think it's a journey that you can use a rational... OK, I'm gonnah use deductive reasoning, doo do doo, I'me gonnah see which one is actually, y'know... I don't think you can, I think it's a faith."
Me: "Interesting... so, what you're saying is, there are two baskets. In one, you put rationality and deductive reasoning and faith into the other. Why are those separate?"
Bear Lemley, I like your comment... the real problem comes when people like Kim start to impress their beliefs on to young minds. Religion is very dangerous in the hands of people like this. Scary stuff
Really fascinating stuff, thanks for doing this, and for approaching people so openly the way that you do.
Thank you Anthony Magnabosco, this is such a valuable service you provide.
God is a complex relationship with the self(ego). When people ask God for forgiveness they are just trying to forgive themselves. When they have faith in God they are just saying they have faith in themselves.
This always ends the same way with the doxastically closed christians. "I hear voices, and I know they are Jesus". wow.
This is amazing. I honestly got goosebumps at the end when they were talking. Great video
love the thought experiment. I just saw you introduce it and had to make this comment. This is such a great way to introduce the strength of confidence in a claim and give you a lot of room to work in the conversation. So fascinating! I just want to have a conversation and use that as a starting point. Awesome!
This woman seems to be doing her best impression of a reasonable person whilst spouting her obviously unreasonable beliefs. Interesting 🤔
Kim sounds a lot like 'Karen' :P
Can I speak to your real name? Wtf? My name is Chad, no you cant speak to me.
Excellent!
I think what you are doing is incredible! Keep up the great work!
Thanks. Many more videos to come.
This was great talk. I love watching people go right up to that point where they can see the flaw in their reasoning whether they admit it or ignore it. She kept saying she didn't care, it didn't matter. I just thought that was beautiful and sad at the same time. Thank you Anthony.
7:26 "Well, I don't care if you own one or not" I think this is key. I think you should try to give example that she cares/impact her personally. She doesn't care about your Ferrari or a stranger's belief in Hindu god. Maybe you should try some example that she really cares, for example: "If your husband uses faith to conclude that Vishnu is the true God"
That would be an interesting way to reframe the question. Use her friend or husband as the subject who came to the Hindu belief via the same "method" as her and see if that changes the emotional equation.
I think he intentionally avoids these type of questions since it might make them defensive.
You, kind sir, are a confirmed apostate in the eyes of the Almighty God.
...which makes the two of us!
Love your channel and keep up the awesome work!
You might not know how much you're inspiring others all across the world, including myself, to think and free themselves from dogma and indoctrination.
Eddie SD- you are not free. Atheism is dumb. You have no facts to believe its true.
Justas399 I can't argue whether or not I'm free. But free from dogma and indoctrination? You bet your a** I am.
Eddie SD- Dogma means "a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true."
Do you believe in science or history? If so, then you do believe in dogma.
Justas399 Well you're welcome to test virtually any of the scientific theories there are and you'll get the same results. That's not "set of principles laid down" by anyone, it's just how things are. And of course, same applies to branches of science that rely on evidence rather than experimentation, like evolution; if you can come up with a better explanation to what's been found, I'll be glad to look into it.
As of history, I don't know much about it, but I understand that there's so much bias in it. So I have much doubt because there's so much room for untruths and inaccuracies.
But still, all dogma is better than believing in some imperceptible 'higher' power dictating us and controlling our lives through some horrible, self-contradictory, inhumane and highly immoral books, and whose existence and, subsequently, authority are to never be questioned.
Eddie SD Eddie SD how does one test for the origin of the universe and life? What is the scientific proof for these things that can be tested in a lab?
Do you think that the 10 Commandments are immoral? If so, by what objective moral standard do you judge them to be immoral by?
That was a good conversation. I've noticed in my SE attempts (very few compared to Anthony's) that people usually haven't given much thought to "why" they hold a particular belief. I'm glad I discovered SE. It's non-confrontational approach seems to be less threatening to your interlocutor.
So grateful for this channel dude Thank you from Alabama
It might be interesting in the Ferrari example to add a degree of importance to believing you have a Ferrari. Say to the interlocutor you are going to give them the Ferrari, would that make them more inclined to believe you have one? They can feel good about believing they are going to get a Ferrari. If they don't believe you actually have one then they can't imagine that they are going to be given one. Religion offers a promise of eternal life taking away the fear of death or a fear of missing out after we die. If you don't believe in a god you have to accept what is a really scary part of life.
Listens to Ben Shapiro who famously said: "When your house floods due to climate change, just sell it and move"
Just, Wow! Great job Anthony!
"... I could use faith if I had something to back it up." Damn, you're good, Anthony. I really admire people like Kim who can engage their beliefs on any level without the need to preach. Fascinating stuff.
I didn't feel the "Hindu Friend" approach was working after maybe the second time, maybe should have shifted to the "What if you were raised as she was? Would your jesus still be your only way?" But I don't think she has enough imagination to truly put herself in the example.
That would be an interesting variation on the outsider test. What if you were born in India to Hindu parents / Iran to Muslim parents / Utah to Mormon parents? Would you still be a Christian or would you employ the same method of faith to believe in other religions. I think this would hit me more strongly if I was put on the spot. Of course many would say yes but the pebble of doubt would be much larger. I'm sure Anthony could find better wording though.
Rob W It is an angle / approach he has used before, but the "I don't care" response from her seemed to make the initial "Hindu Friend " stall out. Not sure if it would have worked at all but I would have liked to hear her response to it.
Anthony, I wonder what she would say if you asked her if she cared whether or not her beliefs are true.
Teresa Amanfu I liked this comment just because it’s a question that I use. However I’m starting to think that it’s irrelevant at this stage in the discussion. Mainly because that question is so direct that some might consider it to be an attack on them rather than a passive conversation.
She would say "I know it's true because of the personnal experience that I have telling me it's true"
@@uncreatedskeptic9968 that is what i wonder, and Anthony for some reason seems to avoid that question when the situation seems a little more complicated. You might be right.
She thinks their true
I love this ! These kinds of talks strengthen the bond of a spiritual person and their belief even more because it makes them explore their side from a secular point of view. This means that they can lead more people to Christ when an atheist ask some of the most basic questions (of which alot of Christians are not equipped to answer). I've studied and applied philosophy seriously for at least 10 years and I have led people to become Christians or at the very least, become increasingly spiritual. I appreciate these videos ! Keep em coming !
Steven Aguilera Thanks. Please consider learning SE and teaching all of your friends and family how to do it. Cheers.
@@magnabosco210 WIsh I had the time Tony but I don't lol. Cheers !
Yeah sure!!! Lol
You have MUCH more patience that I do. When putting up that wall that it requires faith and they don’t care about any other position is so frustrating to me. But it’s clear that this approach is a better way to spark a later discussion or reflection.
I have a lot to learn in that regard thanks for doing these!
Great talk. I loved how it provoked a conversation between the two at the end. It's interesting that she mentioned Ben Shapiro. I think Shapiro is a smart guy; although, I only agree with him on maybe 15% of things. One thing I like about him is how he advertises the idea that facts are more important than feelings. I think the main offender of that principle, way more so than the SJWs he likes to complain about, is religion/religious believers. When Shapiro talks about why he is religious he even seems to disregard this principle that he says he cares about so much.
Ben Shapiro majored in poli-sci in school. He's a political troll. A Milo Y in a suit; an unattractive Tomi Lahren. His job is to throw red meat to conservatives (ie. tell them what they want to hear) and then sit back and rake in the cash
Anthony, did you get a Ferrari key for your Ferrari analogy? Or did you get a real Ferrari?!
What do you think? How sure are you about it on a scale of 0-100?
You can't drive a Ferrari with gay little flip flops on.
Oh wait.. now a days, in this soft beta world.. where real drivers are rare.. everything is automatic and computer assisted. SMH
No shame in being gay for flip flops, enjoy it.
Kay Bee I purchased the key (and had to assemble it) off of Amazon.
This is definitely the most important question that needed to be answered after watching the video. 😁😁😁
I wish these were live!! I was yelling at my phone, "ask her that if she knew the Hindu girl personally for years, if that would move her up the scale and cause her to believe her more." ... Probably not, but it may have provoked some more thought about her conclusions of her God and her religion... Great work though, I love all your videos. They literally have helped me become a better communicator with people and especially my wife. Thanks man.
Well done Anthony....you are doing good work, and this little lesson has helped me a lot..
Trying SE. .With friends and family..
people who claim they converse with god forget to say that ita a one way convo
They think it is a two way conversation.
Maybe you should refrase the thought experiment to "How much money would you bet that I have a Ferrari?"
Than the person can't say it doesn't matter to them.
Or, if you still want an absolute scale from 0% to 100%, so you can later compare different believes, you could ask "How big a percentage of all the money that you own would you bet on (whatever) ?"
Anthony, I thnk what you do is awesome. The time you take to listen and ask questions. Planting seeds. Maybe they'll take root. Maybe not.
That last comment from both of them after the toilet break was excellent..they sure will think about your SE..tks Anthony..
I don't remember hearing you ask her if it was important to her to believe true things. Or ask her if she was wrong, would she want to know about it? Has she ever been wrong about something important before? How would she be able to check to see if she was wrong? Is there any way to tell if you're wrong, or does it just comes down to your personal feelings and experiences?
Nathan Gayner I think these are really great questions you're asking here. It's possible he thought that line of questioning, outside of asking oneself, could come off as combative; and she would respond to those questions by "digging in her heels" or just ending the conversation out of uncomfortable response.
I don't know.
However, I find people much more open to discussion for longer and having a more positive outlook on questioning their own beliefs (in the future) if you ask questions more like he did.
Nathan Gayner When she became more animated and said that she didn’t care, it just seemed like it was a good point end it. And I’m really glad that I did in this case. Should we meet again, those would be wonderful questions to ask.
I would suggest extending the method a bit to make them reflect on the how faith is a bad tool/process by using the measuring stick/ruler analogy to explore methods, tools, bias and reliability. Then you could also switch from a simple measuring stick( which is hard to imagine as a faulty tool) to a new laser tech device that can measure anything (kind of a like a black box measurement device that nobody knows how it works, sort of like faith). "If two different people used this new tech device to make the same measurement and get different results, what does it say about the reliability of this device? Would you buy such a device? Can you see how the faith you use is similar to such a device?" And then try to get them to think about the reliability of their personal experience and faith as the data and tool to measure 'real' things.
Your doing the greatest thing for humanity, to make them think. Thank you.
Nice work on this one man.
when are we going to see that ferrari though?
GREAT SCOTT!! 1.21 Gigawatts !!!!
The "I don't care's" indicate a high level of her being doxasticaly closed. Which to me basically means she dosn't care if it's true or not.
Woo. At first I thought, "oh, he was typing 'dogmatically,' but snagged a typo," then I googled 'doxastic,' and went, "dang, that's a really good word I'm totally going to forget in a few days."
@@funstuff2006 LOL, doxastic closure is pretty useful concept. It's basically the "nah ah" that 3 year olds give you when you explain to them that its time to go to bed at 11PM. Someone is completely ignoring facts and unwilling to be rational or even conversational.
Great clip, one of the best of the ones I watched.
Jeff Wilson Thanks, and thanks for watching.
Just stumbled in your channel Anthony and I think you are doing a really good job. This video is amazing. I think that your approach can be fruitful. I would not be able to stay as calm as you do. I would go very quickly in a Matt Dillahunty's mode if you know what I mean. I'm not saying that one approach is always better than the other, but for sure in this case the confrontational mode would have resulted in a lost opportunity. well done.
23:44 Attention passengers, we are about to experience some turbulence. Please stay in your seats and buckle your seatbelts. Please do not look out the left side of the plane and do not worry that we have lost the entire left wing of the plane. We will just keep moving forward to our destination. Thank you for flying Indoctrinated Airlines.
Nice!!!
LOVE THIS SO MUCH. Getting people to think. Getting ME to think. Absolutely love this approach.
When someone says "my belief in my faith is really strong". You kinda know the conversion/debate is not going anywhere. The thing is, these people think they thought this through really thoroughly. But they actually haven't done that at all.
Edit: damn that ending was so good. And her friend was exactly pointing out the problem with her way of thinking.
Her self-contradiction at ~19:40 amounts to "I only go on faith in situations where I have strong, convincing evidence." XD
Greg Enright she was committing the equivocation fallacy there. There are several different definitions of the word "faith", at the point she was using it as "a belief that is well backed-up", as in "I have faith that my car will start this afternoon". Elsewhere, she was using it as "belief with no evidence at all", as in "you need to have faith to believe in your deity".
Then you went and disturbed the delicate universal balance of odd and even Tic Tacs by necking some thus creating a perturbation in logic
Very awesome video and the ending shows it. You get people to think critically!
I love your videos!
2:30
“I’ve been reading all this historical fiction.”
If a book is categorized as fictitious, why would you believe that it’s true?
Why would anyone believe that the Founding Fathers, despite being brilliant, eloquent, and courageous were anything beyond human? Some, in the worst of ways. If you’re foolish enough to engage in hero worship, never meet your heroes. It will only result in producing a disappointment or two.
2:40
Define the term “crappy guy.”
3:16
Jefferson (and all other politicians who preceded and followed him) was more of an authoritarian while he held public office than he was as a private citizen. This should not be a surprise to any vigorous student of history.
Was government smaller and less intrusive in 1801 than it is now? Was government less intrusive in 1801 than it is now?
Kim knows just enough about American history to be dangerous. Sorry Kim, I’ll take Mr. Jefferson over Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton, or Reagan.
4:19
“I converse with God.”
Why not ask your God what really happened throughout history? After all, God was an intimate witness to it all, eh?
How is it that Kim is allegedly agreeable to looking at the Left and Right extremes of the political spectrum, is able to view the Founding Fathers as an iconoclast would but won’t apply the same intellectual curiosity to her supernatural beliefs?
Kim has no interest in the truth unless she believes the truth affects her life in some way.
Kim is able to embrace the viewpoints found in revisionist history but won’t apply the same to her Bible and God. Why?
7:26
The indifferent Kim provided you with an 80% level of confidence about you owning a Ferrari. Imagine what her confidence level would have been if she actually cared.
13:32
“I did not say I’m apathetic. I’m not apathetic.”
23:42
“I don’t care. I don’t care about that.”
Every time Kim says, “I don’t care,” she is really saying that she doesn’t want to think about it because doing so may shake her faith.
14:58
“My personal experience with what I think is a living God.”
If and when Kim thinks, she wish-thinks.
19:39
“You’re not God.”
Kim is mighty certain of her claim. What evidence or critical thinking process did she apply to arrive at her firm conclusion? How would she know God if God arrived to her in human form?
20:12
“It’s not just blind faith.”
Kim conveniently omitted the times faith didn’t come through on its promise.
21:29
Kim is psychotherapeutically precious. She has an imaginary relationship with an invisible being for decades. She invents a perfect entity that she believes never disappoints her and always brings her what she wants. She has built a history of trust with a phantom. This type of delusional behavior necessitates an entire chapter in the DSM-5.
22:39
No matter how many tangible examples Kim can come up with to justify the realness of her God, she is still reliant on faith. Why does Kim still require faith if she has all of this conclusive evidence to support the existence of her God?
24:03
“It’s out of my realm of thinking.”
Often a clue word is said in haste.
26:07
If there is a common thread with all of these interlocutors (Christians especially), it’s their claim of a “personal experience". They rely heavily on their personal truth to help anchor the legitimacy of their mystical beliefs. If Kim has had what she believes to be a valid personal experience, why is faith required?
Kim’s self-satisfaction throughout the exchange reminds me of the adage, “Some people would rather die than make the effort to think. Eventually, all of them get their wish.”
Kim’s testimony provides another reason why it’s important to try and explore an interlocutor’s life history. What was Kim’s childhood traumas? What was her relationship like with her parents? How would Kim describe her most intimate relationship partners? Was she ever married? Is she currently married? How would Kim describe her marriage? Is she now divorced? Has she remarried? What are Kim's biggest fears? The answers to why Kim believes what she believes are most likely a result of her life experiences and her life choices.
27:35
I think you should have yes.
But you're right, if your interview started a conversation, it's definitely a success.
Way to go, Anthony👍.
Her reaction at the 23 minute mark was tremendous. This was another fantastic talk. The Ferrari test was a great starting point.
The frequent conversations with god/jesus are a bit concerning. Who knows what she'll hear one day. This really isn't someone I want teaching my children, or any children for that matter!
When they do not suffer from schizophrenia, they usually just hear what they WANT to hear. That is why people who were raised to love and care get told by "god" to be more caring and loving and people in troubling situations tend to hear more troubling things.
Most of my teachers were probably Christian. There wasn't much about religion in school. I think most of the bad stuff we learn comes from biased writers of text books. Otherwise it's no guarantee a Christian teacher is going to try to insert their religion into the curriculum. Most of the harm comes from the school board that decides how things are done for everybody. Kim in particular shows how it works. In school she'll probably teach things that contradict her beliefs without her even knowing it. And conversations with Jesus are more often than not exaggerated. In really it's probably just her own conscience she's confusing with God's voice. She probably doesn't realize that everyone has that inner voice that represents our conscience.
@ 23:45
"I don't care" was cognitive dissonance talking. She saw exactly where that train of thought would lead, that she was using faith as a reliable way to assess truth for herself but not for anyone that disagrees with her, and she pivoted. That was her mind metaphorically turning away from the mirror.
"It just doesn't impact what I believe" seals it. I just want to shake her through the screen and say, "Right, but that's why he wanted to talk. Because he's examining *why* that's the case, why you're using what you otherwise consider an unreliable method to reach 100% certainty about this one specific thing."
Because on some level, she's always known she thinks people who adhere to other religions are using a flawed method to conclude that their religion is true. That's probably not a revelation or an epiphany to her. But she's never let herself really make the leap from 'people's use of faith can lead them to believe something that isn't true' to 'MY use of faith can do the same.'
So, if I had perfect reactions and timing, my final question to her might have been, "Does that seem inconsistent? If you think faith can lead someone to believe something not true, but your faith makes you 100% confident that your god is true, is that a contradiction?"
Great job man keep it up!
My style is way different when questioning theists, but there are certainly techniques (like ending on a question) that I will try to employ. You could tell by Kim's body language she felt threatened by your questions, but your extreme politeness and way you showed you were listening (like repeating back what she said) did not give her a conscious excuse to run away. Well done, Anthony.
wow 80% from the get go
Here we go again. Believing nonsense on bad evidence. Flying Ferrari = her claims.
I like how she physically made the hand signs for blinders only looking one way. Very symbolic of her unfounded and obviously untrue claims about Jesus and the only way into heaven. Hope she watches the video to see the numerous fallacies of her arguments. Then again she said repeatedly that she “doesn’t care” about the truth. She just believes what she believes.
jaydee- this sounds like the atheists that I talk to. Atheists never give facts for their claims. No facts that proves no God exist and yet they deny it everyday that He does. That is a major denial of reality.
Ah, you're confused about the definition of atheism. It only means a lack of a belief in any god(s). I've never even seen, heard or spoken any atheist claiming with certainty that Vishnu isn't real, or Allah, Brahma or Jehovah.
Justas399, Atheism is not a claim.. it is the rejection of an extraordinary claim made with no evidence.. Most Atheist's do not say there is no God.. just that the God claim has not met it's burden of proof..
I think you're a bit of a troll Justas because just like you were under a previous video you're shifting the burden of proof again, even after people including myself have explained it to you that it's not how it works. Like I told you before, feel free to prove to us 100% and give us the facts that Aion and Ananke and Phanes and Zeus don't exist, and if you can't then that must mean that they exist. That's your reasoning.
Also prove that the snake-oil I peddle from door to door doesn't work and doesn't miraculously cure all of people's diseases and removes all of their suffering, and if you can't prove it doesn't work then you better buy some. Scammers love people like you who believe everything is true or exists unless someone has facts or proof that it doesn't. You are gullible mate.
You make the claim that your God exists or that your snake oil really cures people then you prove it, otherwise I see no reason to believe that whatever you claim is true and you can keep both your God as well as your snake-oil-bs-cure. People drank liquid mercury and died because someone told them it would give them eternal life and they didn't believe that the one making this ridiculous claim should prove it first. That's why the burden of proof is on the one making the claim, because mostly reasonable people don't want to be poisoned by what could be dangerous ideas for which no proof exists.
propoetide- actually you are confused: “For the assertion that “There is no God” is just as much a claim to knowledge as is the assertion that “There is a God.” Stanford University Encyclopedia of Philosophy
I'm enjoying this a lot
The end was excellent!
"You've sparked a WHOLE new conversation."
....
"FUCK YEAH!"
If you see this, you're awesome Anthony 😁
"I listen to a lot of Ben Shapiro"
That's gonna be a yikes for me, dawg.
Parker Barnes Ben Shapiro 😂
She lost me a bit at, "I listen to Ben Shapiro the most." Also, learning the truth about Jefferson through historical fiction. But, interesting twisty-twist near the end 🤔
Great interview
faith vs mental health(voices) vs personal experiences vs degree of trust / skepticism vs willingness to change ones ideas. The journey from believer to unbeliever is a long one.
"I've been reading historical fiction." -_- Learning from fantasy? Derp.
"Historical Fiction".... hmm.... bible?
“I listen to the Ben Shapiro podcast”
Lol ok.
I really liked her. She really did try to be honest and open. Many of your other videos has people trying to dominate the conversation because they felt threatened.
just discovered yours and Nicewonder's channels . THese are So much more productive the typical atheist/theist , believer/skeptic debates . this style of query gets a person to ask themselves rather than get out the shield and sword for the usual battle . When they introspect on why,what ,who, when, how .. the seed is already planted .