Corrections I noticed on rewatch (pain): - Meant to say "many" characters' jabs at 9:20, not "most!" Frame 5 is ridiculous for a forward tilt, but on the slower side of jabs (Shulk, Sephiroth.) - Whoops, macro cancels were actually patched out separately from all the other stuff on that character - in 2.0.0 on January 29th, 2019! Everything else came in the big 3.0.0 patch on April 17th like I said. - The frames on the timer at the end of the video are in 30FPS even though this is a 60FPS video, but don't worry, it's still 25 in 10 seconds! What a broken move. - As {a} pointed out, there are still situational LS cancels! They might not be as flexible or practical as vanilla cancels into e.g. forward toss, but they still look super sick which is cool. See a full guide by Maroof here: twitter.com/Maroof_64/status/1230968365184901124 - Whoops, I misspoke at 16:47 - meant to say "hurtbox", not "hitbox!" Let me know if you see anything else I missed so I can add it! I tried to fact check this video pretty thoroughly, but whenever there are a lot of numbers involved you never know where you'll mix something up!
Well maybe if everyone had old lucario frame 7 jab. Which made a lot of sense being that bowser and Ganon’s jabs are both frame 7 so it only logically follows to make lucario’s jab just as slow for balancing purposes
Pichu actually still has invincibilty on her down smash. Which is really dumb. It covers most ledge get up options and can actually become a valid oos move if used right
Megaman could only macro cancel into special moves and item throws, not aerials. The "macro cancel" fairs you showed near the start of that section were just normal lemon hop fairs, still possible in smash, not a true combo as pellets are -20 on hit.
@@statichammer9984 Hey it's you! Yeah I was thinkin even though I didn't know much about it, I only remembered pellets being able to be macro-cancelled into leaf shield, not aerials. I never bothered to learn it cuz I didn't think I was good enough and I knew it'd be patched out.
Even in casual play, Olimar was broken as hell, because the Pikmin somehow messed with the spirit multiplier meaning they just dealt MASSIVE damage, especially the red Pikmin with increased fire damage spirits
You forget one of the things that made Olimar up smash so safe is that since it's a projectile, Olimar wasn't put in lag when hitting the opponent's shield, while the opponent still is. Otherwise it might not have been so safe.
Ah yeah, good point - I mentioned the projectile hitlag thing with yellow pikmin giving you more hitlag & therefore hitstun since it's a projectile, but probably should've mentioned how projectiles interact with shield lag! I'm gonna talk about pre-nerf Mii Gunner soon though, & I think that'll be a great time to go in depth on projectiles, hitlag, shield lag, etc.
And that's the reason why Thunderjolt is so OP, why charge shot is good at starting combos, why Blaster (Wolf) is an amazing proyectile and why Robin loves to spam elthunder/arcthunder, because they're also electric proyectiles.
@@theomarcot4164 do an irl test by throwing a eraser at someone, them flinching after impact is basically shield lag while you can throw a punch after the items thrown
Haha I feel like when you're trying to adjust to a new game engine, the characters that hit the hardest always seem so strong. But then once you learn how to move, they become a lot more reasonable!
Tbf, Ganondorf was an ok low tier. And then all of the low tiers besides himself got buffed. Some even becoming high tiers like Diddy and Ken. Even Falcon went from.a character who was considered worse than Ganon to an actually scary character.
It's the same situation as little mac in the beginning of smash 4. He hit hard and had loads of kill moves but lacked combo potential. Thus, unskilled players flocked to him because his downside was irrelevant to them since they couldn't combo anyway.
You didn't show one of the weirdest decisions they made regarding version 1.0.0. In 1.0.0, if you had the opponent % option highlighted in the menu, you could instantly reset the opponent's percent to whatever is selected on the menu by clicking on it with A, rather than having to move it up and then back down or vice versa. It was actually really convenient and I don't know why they removed it.
You forgot Mii Swordfighter. In 1.0.0 the tornado and chakram had ABSURD range, covering the entire final destination. Makes sense if you consider they are ABSURD combo tools.
Hold on... I could literally do this!! I'd just have to have both people connect to me over Parsec. It'd have to be region locked just due to the nature of Parsec but man, that's a great idea 😂 Will def consider it
Anyone remember when pre patch Chrom up special killed the opponent before him so he'd be ending stocks as soon as the match starts since his aerials combo'ed into it easily?
I still can't believe how insanely good Pichu was. Alpharad said he would main him before ultimate released and then everyone was maining him because tier picking. I think introspecktive put it best: "If you didn't like him at his worst, you don't DESERVE him at his best." Nobody was atcually gonna main Pichu (except Alpharad) until they found out how broken he was.
@@Chaos.A yo same. He was probably the only character I could play in melee despite him being one of the worst, so I actually screamed when it was revealed that he was in ultimate.
Lmfao, damn. I immediately recognized the Jazz of Maple tracks when they came on. Good taste. Kinda miss when Gren was able to do easy HP cancels on PS2 plats back in vanilla, weird stuff.
Aren't you th- Really glad to see someone recognized the Jazz of Maple stuff!! I can't believe how good all the new music MapleStory is churning out is... still won't convince me to go back though 😭 And I totally forgot about vanilla hydro pump cancels, can't believe they left those in but kept Palu's teleport the same...
@@WhyDo yeah, and i noticed at 14:59 wolf's jacket turns red instead of purple as well as pichu being blue but the normal screen behind the blue screen, its super weird and im curious why it happened.
They definitely went to far on pichu. The hurtbox and forward smash changes were fair but the self damage change was way too brutal for such a light character
Don't worry, that's next video! This was just for characters I thought were actually top broken top tiers. Gunner was ridiculous, but idk if I'd call them top 10!
The problem with Pichu now is mainly that they're _not_ even tiny anymore! Like, Pichu's hurtbox is legitimately bigger than Pikachu's and it's kind of disgusting. The result is that Pikachu is now smaller, faster Pichu with more range and higher weight. And no self-damage.
Honestly I'm glad it's so much more balanced than Smash 4, I actually feel like I can deal with all the top tiers. But they've still made a bunch of questionable decisions! Rivals of Aether has shown that it's possible to balance a platform fighter to perfection, and Project+ does a very good job of it with a large cast.
@@Bowser6495 True, but when you compare Project M 3.5 to Sm4sh early days where the roster size was similar, there was no doubt Project M outclassed it when it came to balance.
@@Bowser6495 Because you talked about how the project+ dev team had less characters to worry about when it came to balance, so I brought up project m and Sm4sh to show that even with a smaller roster, the Nintendo made Smash game doesn't have the better balancing.
Man, 1.0.0 was peak. I don’t care what anyone says, Pichu going from worst character in Melee to BEST character in Ultimate was amazing, pretty much the entire roster felt like they could take tournaments pretty consistently, and we didn’t have to deal with broken DLC fighters.
I know this video doesn't really talk about spirits, but Olimar was beyond Brawl Meta Knight tier in spirits back in 1.0.0. See, a lot of his attacks that involved Pikmin were bugged, receiving the damage/knockback boost from spirit attack twice. This means that by the time you reach max level Legend spirits, Olimar's D-air was dealing more damage than a fully charged Chrom Neutral B, and though the smash attacks didn't get the damage increase, they still received the knockback increase. One-shotting characters with spirits Olimar was a regular occurrence. An Olimar equipped with Armor Knight or super armor was genuinely unstoppable unless you were also using Olimar. It got to the point where most Spirit arenas were simply titled "No Olimar" or "Olimar = kick".
Pre 7.0 Palu. Nair killed at 120, could poke a full shield if properly spaced because most characters had bad shields, and down throw Bair was a true combo and her best kill option.
1 more thing about Mega Man that was broken (well, others characters with items have it too), was that you could z-drop items during hitstun, making normally completely true combos, untrue if the item can't be avoided (and if they can be avoided, it may be more difficult). Mega Man would've benefited a lot in particular, given how easy it is for him to access, and the utility he gets from holding it anyway (which was even better in 1.0.0 because of the mentioned leaf shield cancels).
Mii sword fighter also got a huge nerf early on. His tornado and chakra (the good side b spiny thing) used to go from on side of the stage to the other.
Still a bit barebones but I really do appreciate the stage & added features a whole lot. If you have a modded switch, this player jugeeya made an amazing 'Ultimate Training Modpack' that completely reworks training mode with TONS of new features, definitely check it out!
Although considering how busted Pikachu is, at least Pichu was practically guaranteed to die if you even hit the tiny rat once and it was still debatable if he was better than Pikachu. I kinda miss pre patch Pichu, because you can stomp sure, but you die instantly if you mess up once, even hitting the enemy a ton puts Pichu further into kill percent, which is low mid percent for most players. Or maybe I'm biased af because he's cuuuuute
heres some interesting nerfs that jr got in early patches Up b got nerfed to only one airdoge per up b,, before the nerf it had unlimited dodges The distance of a spinout jump got reduced Wall bumps after side b got laggier or had their angle changed (i cant remember which) which stopped jr from permanently stalling under some stages
I'll always remember King K. Rool's Up Air being his Day 1 worst aerial to me as it was very suicidal offstage due to absurdly high endlag and definitely felt it like it really lacked killpower, thank goodness this is now a very reliable antiair to challenge many downward hitboxes due to head intangibility and lingering hitboxes that were added that also kill, making it way more worth it to go for and chase with, as well as stall offstage. The same goes for slow frame 30 blunderbuss, making Kannonballs shot or reshot a little harder to react to as well as make the move less suicidal to use offstage and the same goes for teching the stage. Thank goodness the 6.0.0 patch made the Kroc close to playable and 7.0.0 did a little further. I have doubts for the next patches of Ult as the recent ones severely lacked changes that would obviously need adjustments, even to the casual side of the game, but if they ever make a patch that really addresses the flaws of low/bottom tiers and takes the meta of top tiers obviously needing tonedowns seriously rather than just fixing or making certain/random moves moves better, I'd gladly get my hopes back. I don't care for KKR's Day 1 nerfs as they likely came from complaints from casual audiences as they didn't really make him worse aside from the ledge grab detection reliability to me. -also Chrom/Ike's Up B spike was stupid and deserved it and the same goes for the little rat-
I loved 8.0.0 for king k. The buff to belly armor is nice, and eating any 12% or lower move with side b makes a lot of match ups way better. And I think it was also the patch with nair’s lag being reduced. When offline gets going, I wouldn’t be surprised if he comes out as the best heavy
@@jacksondavis8695 Even I have to admit, he's still not gonna be better than Bowser and I think his design will lock him out of being very close to him
@@PrettyKoolCrocodile I would consider the two in the same tier at least. There just isn’t a great K Rool player like Leon for bowser. The best known is Ben Gold, and he’s a little too gimmicky. Imagine if Leon didn’t play, people would think Bowser was a lot worse
27:38 Man, Incineroar’s Up-b went *nowhere* before the buffs to him. I’m glad they buffed him quite a bit since the beginning but he’s still sooo damn slow. I’m also glad these 3 characters aren’t our current top tiers (though the current online top tiers are killing me).
incineroar needs some smaller stages. tier list would be more balanced if we could play on something like warioware. i play fox and peach and i guess in a vaccuum peach is better but then we start on ps2 and i'd rather play fox. battlefield obv fox. kalos, lylat, fd, anything with long horizontal distance is better for fox. and i guess peach gets smashville?
The thing about Incineroar is that his buttons are amazing. He has top tier buttons and low tier speed. It makes this situation where getting faster is what he needs to be good but being too fast would make him overpowered.
@@willkershisnik5893 no because he is balanced and you can't get away with the same stuff The only way to balance pikachu without changing the way you play him is to nerf his damage Edit: which wouldn't be fun or interesting
Whoa! Nice video! I never would have thought to use an emulato- Oh hi Nintendo! That's not an emulator! It just really good video editing that stimulates the old patches mhm not an emulator nope!
Pre-Patch Ultimate was nothing compared to the monstrosity of Pre-Patch Sm4sh. As if Sm4sh wasn’t a mess already. Let’s see here. -Broken Diddy Kong -More ridiculous grab combos (Luigi Down Throw shenanigans, ZSS Down Throw, etc) -Random Infinites -Crazy glitches/exploits that broke the game -Nearly half of the casted didn’t even function properly or was just bad. (Ex: Falco, Ike, Palu, Dedede, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Charizard, Meta Knight, etc).
It's funny that you cite the Sonic buff as a testament to the patches sucking. But that was actually a good buff, it fixed his Up Air which has been something he needed a long time coming. People just blindly hate whenever they see Sonic, it's not like they buffed fucking Spindash or something, they just fixed his Up Air, made Down Tilt a bit less mediocre and made his Up Smash not completely useless (still probably his worst move though.) It's also worth noting they haven't "fixed" the buffer system yet because it's intended to behave the way it does. If it was really unintended they'd have fixed it like when they fixed how it buffered rolls for a massive window when landing and shielding, because that wasn't how it was intended to work. People just assume it's not working as intended because it doesn't work the exact way they expect it to. Also, despite Mega Man's nerfs, the guy wasn't nerfed near as hard as Olimar or Pichu lol. Sure he had some potential infinites, but by that logic alone that means Diddy is the most nerfed character in Ultimate, but that's not true at all. Much less in the entire series, you said despite Smash 4 Bayo getting nerfed she stayed top tier (even though her pre-patch days she could kill off of winning neutral once 100% of the time,) but Mega Man's rough placement didn't change after the nerfs either.
Really nice video. I see your most recent video seems like it will be a part two and I’m here for this series! Also you have a soothing voice. Nice video
nice video. If you decide to do a follow up video some other interesting early balance changes are: Luigi's dair nerf which failed to remove his 0 to deaths Chrom's up b suicide kill nerf Duck Hunt's side b getting absolutely gutted Wii Fit's stealth nerf to side b in 3.0 The projectile shield damage nerfs removing shield break setups from Samus The removal of z-dropping items out of hitstun
Already on it! :) Thanks for bring up the clay pigeon hitlag/endlag reduction which I forgot about - & I'd never heard of the wii fit sideb stealth nerf! Def gonna look into that!
Is anyone gonna talk about how pre patch mii gunner could break your shield just by playing a decent neutral? My go to set was 3332 cuz of shield stun.
@@chrispo7610 but gunner specifically did it super well due to high shield stun from grenade and with a lot of projectiles basically comboing into themselves on shield.
We not gonna talk about vanilla Chrom? The SS tier dude where everything could turn into a 6 hit combo and finish it off with up B that killed the opponent first off stage?
I remember playing a bunch of mega man pre 3.0 and comboing pellets into fair. I was the only player in my friend group who played mega man decently. Then of course I quit the game for brawlhalla cause I was frustrated with the online connectivity, and when I tried to play mega man again after 3.0 I couldn't figure out why pellets into fair was garbage.
I still don’t understand why people are still being a baby about Sonic getting buffed? It’s just mostly fixes, tiny frame decrease and damage increase. Those buff are just for his least used move. They act like spindash kills at 100 or something,
If there's a part 2, you have to mention Luigi's zero to death being much easier to perfrom and down b having insane invincibility frames when dropping from a platform.
I love that you called MagaMan's pellets "lemons", that's what I call them every time, always lol. Validating my weird smash terminology based off of silly youtube videos. Thanks. :D
Nerfing the F Tilt and Smash was fine, but maling Pichu make himself more damage and a bigger hurtbox than it older version Pikachu was just stupid game design. They killed the character. Pichu even unchanged wouldnt even be a top tier today. That was just early meta
I was at pound 2019 It was literally the weekend after patch 1.1, But it didn't really matter cuz they played on the old patch. top 8 ended up being so bad. Literally, everybody played either snake or olamar. Even people that had more aggressive mains like Ally just couldn't compete with all the defense and it ended up being camper versus camper.
You forgot to mention one of the other reasons Olimar up smash was so good was because it was always doing full charged damage no matter how long you held it. Instant, halfway, full charge, didn't matter, it always did full damage.
From what I understand, it was actually unable to be charged at all (it didn't increase the power over base)... it was just that broken already, doing uncharged damage!
i had a feeling itd b megaman he ws the biggest sleeper pick n his pellet macro cancelling developed so much in the first couple months 2 years on itd b melee ics, lemon salad ws frustrating 2 deal with but his zdrop blade infinite ws fully true n led to kills at any% n by buffering a phantom nair he didnt even have the random chance of blade disappearing
I’ll always miss Vanilla smash. You could decimate 98% of your opponents shield using Mii Gunner’s fully charged missile and charge shot at the same time.
You can't say "most nerfed character in smash bros history" without remembering patch 1.0.0 sheik, greninja, diddy, and rosa in smash 4. Those characters were fucking INSANE
Sheik, Diddy, Rosa, and Bayo def got nerfed a lot, but at the end of the day they were still able to win majors, and did. Greninja's nerfs were sad but I don't think he was close to being the best in the game even in vanilla Smash 4. Ult. megaman on the other hand... being able to cancel pellets and leaf shield is just so incredibly broken that I really think he might've been knocked down from the best in the game to high tier!
Some things I missed from the previous patches of Ultimate were Dedede's old Gordo hit box and F-Smash hitbox. Gordo's hitbox used to cover its spikes, and Dedede's old F-Smash used to hit tall characters shields twice. Good ol' times... 😔
@@jelloistasty I don't understand what you mean? Gordo's interactions with ledge have remained largely untouched since Ultimate's release. I don't see how shrinking the hitbox of Gordo from encompassing it's body and it's spikes to just it's body benefits anything related to ledge Gordo setups. If anything, you could more easily argue it hinders the potential of ledge Gordo setups, though that is far from I'm genuinely thinking regarding the changes the Gordo since Ultimate's release.
@@lordlyndis6969 the size decrease means they can slip past the ledge easier and catch people holding onto ledge, its size decrease made the spacing to do this perfect for ledge trapping with f smash. Look up D3nsitys video "gordo c stick ledge trap"
@@jelloistasty I've checked the video you brought up in the previous reply. The decreased size of the 'hitbox' of Gordo didn't mean they decreased the 'hurtbox' size of Gordo as well. Gordo's overall size has remained the same since the launch of Ultimate. The discovery of the ledge slip C-Stick Gordo tech has less to do with the reduced hitbox size of Gordo, and more to do with enginuity of players like D3nsity who managed to turn a needless nerf into an opportunity to develop Dedede's metagame in exchange. With that in mind, I compliment D3nsity greatly, though I do not think the nerf of Dedede's Gordo allowed Dedede to perform this tech in the first place. I appreciate you directing my attention to that Dedede player so I can keep an eye on any new tech he discovers.
@@lordlyndis6969 the gordo wouldn't slip past ledge from that fsmash positioning pre patch. I'm not saying the gordo literally changed in size, the hitbox not being on the spikes affects how it bounces off stage (or in this case not bouncing and slipping past ledge). His edgegaurd became way better with that buff, gordos midstage were never dededes gameplan so nerfing the effectiveness of a bad strategy isnt as big a deal as how it helped his strengths.
We are in such a meta in smash ultimate where matches are 7 8 minutes long and pichu really wouldn’t even be crazy with its og size in the meta because how long stocks last at top play
These aren’t character balance related changes, but in the original version of the game, the red zoom screen done for the final kill in a match couldn’t appear for any final smashes. Also, when starting a spirit battle, the music would stop playing during the loading screen and start up again when the match started. Now the song just keeps playing. Because of this change, the music for the Sandbag spirit battle was changed from Home Run Contest to the online waiting room song. They aren’t as groundbreaking, but I find the changes interesting enough.
Corrections I noticed on rewatch (pain):
- Meant to say "many" characters' jabs at 9:20, not "most!" Frame 5 is ridiculous for a forward tilt, but on the slower side of jabs (Shulk, Sephiroth.)
- Whoops, macro cancels were actually patched out separately from all the other stuff on that character - in 2.0.0 on January 29th, 2019! Everything else came in the big 3.0.0 patch on April 17th like I said.
- The frames on the timer at the end of the video are in 30FPS even though this is a 60FPS video, but don't worry, it's still 25 in 10 seconds! What a broken move.
- As {a} pointed out, there are still situational LS cancels! They might not be as flexible or practical as vanilla cancels into e.g. forward toss, but they still look super sick which is cool. See a full guide by Maroof here: twitter.com/Maroof_64/status/1230968365184901124
- Whoops, I misspoke at 16:47 - meant to say "hurtbox", not "hitbox!"
Let me know if you see anything else I missed so I can add it! I tried to fact check this video pretty thoroughly, but whenever there are a lot of numbers involved you never know where you'll mix something up!
Well maybe if everyone had old lucario frame 7 jab. Which made a lot of sense being that bowser and Ganon’s jabs are both frame 7 so it only logically follows to make lucario’s jab just as slow for balancing purposes
You said wolf is the most nerfed
Me:hahahaha BAYO
Pichu actually still has invincibilty on her down smash. Which is really dumb. It covers most ledge get up options and can actually become a valid oos move if used right
Megaman could only macro cancel into special moves and item throws, not aerials. The "macro cancel" fairs you showed near the start of that section were just normal lemon hop fairs, still possible in smash, not a true combo as pellets are -20 on hit.
@@statichammer9984 Hey it's you! Yeah I was thinkin even though I didn't know much about it, I only remembered pellets being able to be macro-cancelled into leaf shield, not aerials. I never bothered to learn it cuz I didn't think I was good enough and I knew it'd be patched out.
Even in casual play, Olimar was broken as hell, because the Pikmin somehow messed with the spirit multiplier meaning they just dealt MASSIVE damage, especially the red Pikmin with increased fire damage spirits
And AKUMA. What the fuck happened there?
@@Rarest26
What happened?
“Bro, I hate that feckin rat”-sun tzu, the art of war
Somehow still true.
Misused meme. The police will be at your door tommorow
@@BobBob-bm9kz i use the power of 420 likes to redirect them to your address
Meanwhile, Pichu: *Down Taunt*
@@ToadetteTails6969 its been 3 years- in this time, ive both stopped playing smash, come back, played pichu, mained pichu, quit, and come back
You forget one of the things that made Olimar up smash so safe is that since it's a projectile, Olimar wasn't put in lag when hitting the opponent's shield, while the opponent still is. Otherwise it might not have been so safe.
Ah yeah, good point - I mentioned the projectile hitlag thing with yellow pikmin giving you more hitlag & therefore hitstun since it's a projectile, but probably should've mentioned how projectiles interact with shield lag! I'm gonna talk about pre-nerf Mii Gunner soon though, & I think that'll be a great time to go in depth on projectiles, hitlag, shield lag, etc.
And that's the reason why Thunderjolt is so OP, why charge shot is good at starting combos, why Blaster (Wolf) is an amazing proyectile and why Robin loves to spam elthunder/arcthunder, because they're also electric proyectiles.
@@N12015 wait projectiles have a different effect on shield lag ? Could you explain please
@@theomarcot4164 when you hit someones shield both players are put into lag. When a projectile hits a shield only the player hit is put into lag.
@@theomarcot4164 do an irl test by throwing a eraser at someone, them flinching after impact is basically shield lag while you can throw a punch after the items thrown
Back when people thought Ganondorf and King K. Rool were broken for some reason
Haha I feel like when you're trying to adjust to a new game engine, the characters that hit the hardest always seem so strong. But then once you learn how to move, they become a lot more reasonable!
Tell me about it
Tbf, Ganondorf was an ok low tier. And then all of the low tiers besides himself got buffed. Some even becoming high tiers like Diddy and Ken. Even Falcon went from.a character who was considered worse than Ganon to an actually scary character.
and simon
It's the same situation as little mac in the beginning of smash 4. He hit hard and had loads of kill moves but lacked combo potential. Thus, unskilled players flocked to him because his downside was irrelevant to them since they couldn't combo anyway.
Sakurai has gone on record saying he loves joke characters, and I low-key think he made Pichu OP on purpose just for the joke.
And yet Ken and Ryu don't have a Dan costume 😔
Hence why there's so many, like Doc, Mac, Ganon etc
@@amaze_z1953 At least he made Dan the weakest spirit in the game which is pretty funny
man i kinda miss whe pichu was really good. but then again olimar
I’m so sad that I didn’t get to play pichu when he was good.
Nice Cave Story picture.
As a sonic fan, I can understand how pikmin fans feel when people complain about olimar
Pichu is still good.
Just not impossible to hit anymore
I'm a pichu main, so I'm really sad
You didn't show one of the weirdest decisions they made regarding version 1.0.0.
In 1.0.0, if you had the opponent % option highlighted in the menu, you could instantly reset the opponent's percent to whatever is selected on the menu by clicking on it with A, rather than having to move it up and then back down or vice versa. It was actually really convenient and I don't know why they removed it.
Wtf, I need to check this out later. That's so messed up and yet I don't doubt you for a second 😭
Wait what? Since when?
Like in melee? I miss that.
You forgot Mii Swordfighter. In 1.0.0 the tornado and chakram had ABSURD range, covering the entire final destination. Makes sense if you consider they are ABSURD combo tools.
pichu was SO much fun in vanilla, i could literally mash my face against my controller and get wins.
Ok... so what if you held a Smash Ultimate tournament... on 1.0.0?
Hold on... I could literally do this!! I'd just have to have both people connect to me over Parsec. It'd have to be region locked just due to the nature of Parsec but man, that's a great idea 😂 Will def consider it
Would definitely be interesting to see!
@@WhyDo dang... guess I can't do Steve then lol
@@geothepoly rip
@@WhyDo sorry but Nintendo would cancel that
Anyone remember when pre patch Chrom up special killed the opponent before him so he'd be ending stocks as soon as the match starts since his aerials combo'ed into it easily?
As a Chrom main, yes. I miss it.
Remember when that wasn't fixed? And still happened more often than not?
@@bawbehh No.
Everyone gangster until Mario turns *B L U E*
Where
Wait nevrmind
dabba dee dabba da
SHADOW MARIO?!?! NANI?!?!
And Pichu
@@eyebrowse
Squadalee squadalah
“Gg ez” - sun tzu “the art of war”
Holy shit coolfer!
@@Dracodenti Holy shit Draco!
@@bennybeebop1754 lmao benny
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Woah TCNick3's hub members are here
I still can't believe how insanely good Pichu was. Alpharad said he would main him before ultimate released and then everyone was maining him because tier picking. I think introspecktive put it best: "If you didn't like him at his worst, you don't DESERVE him at his best." Nobody was atcually gonna main Pichu (except Alpharad) until they found out how broken he was.
Alpharad also said that Pichu would get nerfed
Alpharad was going to main pichu because he knew beforehand that pichu was busted because he got exclusive access to the E3 demo.
Actually I told all my friends I would main Pichu the moment he was announced, and I stuck to that until Byleth was released
@@echo5172 He made a video of characters he was going to main after everyone was confirmed, wayyyy before E3.
@@Chaos.A yo same. He was probably the only character I could play in melee despite him being one of the worst, so I actually screamed when it was revealed that he was in ultimate.
Lmfao, damn. I immediately recognized the Jazz of Maple tracks when they came on. Good taste.
Kinda miss when Gren was able to do easy HP cancels on PS2 plats back in vanilla, weird stuff.
Aren't you the guy who uploaded all the undertale soundtracks to youtube?
Aren’t you the guy uploaded "are you the guy who uploaded the undertale soundtrack" on TH-cam
I apologize on behalf of everyone the burden you have to carry
Aren't you th-
Really glad to see someone recognized the Jazz of Maple stuff!! I can't believe how good all the new music MapleStory is churning out is... still won't convince me to go back though 😭 And I totally forgot about vanilla hydro pump cancels, can't believe they left those in but kept Palu's teleport the same...
@@WhyDo Aren’t you the guy who uploaded the video?
If they gave feint jump less landing lag, then that would make a balance patch god-tier.
No. That's too much power.
Imagine if you're able to edge cancel the dive kick follow up from feint jump.
I can smell the character bias, but that would be cool honestly
Pichu was nerfed but Pikachu still exists in the same way.
*Entirety of screen turns blue*
WhyDo: What’s up with Mario’s head?
😭 wait but upon closer inspection, it goes even DEEPER... how come the blue building behind him turns RED in the display??? HELP
@@WhyDo yeah, and i noticed at 14:59 wolf's jacket turns red instead of purple as well as pichu being blue but the normal screen behind the blue screen, its super weird and im curious why it happened.
@@WhyDo no pressure or anything, but I kinda wanna learn how to do those crazy fast BDKs
@@WhyDo Maybe this is a team thing since the leaderboard shows one name as red and the other as blue
Umm the other names grey, idk now
They definitely went to far on pichu. The hurtbox and forward smash changes were fair but the self damage change was way too brutal for such a light character
“Oh a whydo video”
“OH A WHYDO VIDEO”
I'm surprised you didn't even mention Mii Gunner not being able to break shields with her projectiles anymore. It was insane, back in vanilla.
Don't worry, that's next video! This was just for characters I thought were actually top broken top tiers. Gunner was ridiculous, but idk if I'd call them top 10!
The problem with Pichu now is mainly that they're _not_ even tiny anymore! Like, Pichu's hurtbox is legitimately bigger than Pikachu's and it's kind of disgusting. The result is that Pikachu is now smaller, faster Pichu with more range and higher weight. And no self-damage.
Imagine if someone got the e3 build
Wasn't there somebody who actually had it?
@@ewaldgering6459 Nintendo and sakurai
@@blakeskit obviously, nuh im talking outside of those. There some fan or consumer who had it before release i believe
@@ewaldgering6459 yeah a make a wish kid
Back when Bayonetta was playable? God forbid she combos a heavy weight.
i think Nintendo has done a great job balancing this game. It's definitely the most balanced fighting game I've ever seen.
Honestly I'm glad it's so much more balanced than Smash 4, I actually feel like I can deal with all the top tiers. But they've still made a bunch of questionable decisions! Rivals of Aether has shown that it's possible to balance a platform fighter to perfection, and Project+ does a very good job of it with a large cast.
@@WhyDo to be fair they have a lot less characters to balance compared to Smash Ultimates 80+ characters.
@@Bowser6495 True, but when you compare Project M 3.5 to Sm4sh early days where the roster size was similar, there was no doubt Project M outclassed it when it came to balance.
@@elblazemonkey1 I never mentioned Project M why did you bring it up?
@@Bowser6495 Because you talked about how the project+ dev team had less characters to worry about when it came to balance, so I brought up project m and Sm4sh to show that even with a smaller roster, the Nintendo made Smash game doesn't have the better balancing.
Man, 1.0.0 was peak. I don’t care what anyone says, Pichu going from worst character in Melee to BEST character in Ultimate was amazing, pretty much the entire roster felt like they could take tournaments pretty consistently, and we didn’t have to deal with broken DLC fighters.
I know this video doesn't really talk about spirits, but Olimar was beyond Brawl Meta Knight tier in spirits back in 1.0.0. See, a lot of his attacks that involved Pikmin were bugged, receiving the damage/knockback boost from spirit attack twice. This means that by the time you reach max level Legend spirits, Olimar's D-air was dealing more damage than a fully charged Chrom Neutral B, and though the smash attacks didn't get the damage increase, they still received the knockback increase. One-shotting characters with spirits Olimar was a regular occurrence. An Olimar equipped with Armor Knight or super armor was genuinely unstoppable unless you were also using Olimar. It got to the point where most Spirit arenas were simply titled "No Olimar" or "Olimar = kick".
btw the way you used the black circle flashing red to demonstrate the speed of 3 frames was *chef's kiss* MWAH perfect
I wish we could go back to 3.1.0 brawler, that SHAC FAir was absolute bonkers
And also having that lower air speed gave it an actually good recovery instead of just OK.
@@N12015 How does having a lower air speed make his recovery better? Or are you talking about fall speed
Pre 7.0 Palu. Nair killed at 120, could poke a full shield if properly spaced because most characters had bad shields, and down throw Bair was a true combo and her best kill option.
1 more thing about Mega Man that was broken (well, others characters with items have it too), was that you could z-drop items during hitstun, making normally completely true combos, untrue if the item can't be avoided (and if they can be avoided, it may be more difficult). Mega Man would've benefited a lot in particular, given how easy it is for him to access, and the utility he gets from holding it anyway (which was even better in 1.0.0 because of the mentioned leaf shield cancels).
Mii sword fighter also got a huge nerf early on. His tornado and chakra (the good side b spiny thing) used to go from on side of the stage to the other.
I was a mii swordie main week 1 (or, rather, week 0!) So when the game actually released, I was like "WHAT HAPPENED HERE" 😔
9:15 when the HDMI cable is broke
I just want to take this time to admire just how good the training stage and mode is.
Still a bit barebones but I really do appreciate the stage & added features a whole lot. If you have a modded switch, this player jugeeya made an amazing 'Ultimate Training Modpack' that completely reworks training mode with TONS of new features, definitely check it out!
Its wild they hurt pichu so bad but left pika with every advantage
Don’t forget bowser jr ability to stall infinitely with side b
I actually had no idea about this, that's hilarious. Wonder what other day 1 jank I've never heard of!
What was stupider in 1.0 not even for Jr but items in general was the ability to Z drop in hitstun, bur Jr is Jr so he’s now allowed to be good
@Correct Opinion he still does lmao
Who else actually checked that he flashed the red circle for 3 frames? lmao
It was actually 3 frames btw.
Although considering how busted Pikachu is, at least Pichu was practically guaranteed to die if you even hit the tiny rat once and it was still debatable if he was better than Pikachu. I kinda miss pre patch Pichu, because you can stomp sure, but you die instantly if you mess up once, even hitting the enemy a ton puts Pichu further into kill percent, which is low mid percent for most players. Or maybe I'm biased af because he's cuuuuute
They should not have increases pichu self damage. It was already high. He’s already sooooo light
I feel like it's good that they did, just maybe not as much as they did, about half of the nerf would have sufficed
Pichu didn't need that nerf, people were already developing counterplay for it, it just deserved an f-tilt nerf, and that's it
They lowered it again!
I had NO idea about all this Megaman stuff
heres some interesting nerfs that jr got in early patches
Up b got nerfed to only one airdoge per up b,, before the nerf it had unlimited dodges
The distance of a spinout jump got reduced
Wall bumps after side b got laggier or had their angle changed (i cant remember which) which stopped jr from permanently stalling under some stages
I thought you can still infinitely airdodge
9:30 incredible that they thought that a
F R A M E 5 kill move was a good idea
It’s also active for 8 frames
Pit Down Smash?
@@officialjokker124 only the front side and it’s a smash the end lag is big. Pichu’s past f-tilt had almost no end lag
I'm genuinely hyped to see if they'll be more 1.0.0 content
I'll always remember King K. Rool's Up Air being his Day 1 worst aerial to me as it was very suicidal offstage due to absurdly high endlag and definitely felt it like it really lacked killpower, thank goodness this is now a very reliable antiair to challenge many downward hitboxes due to head intangibility and lingering hitboxes that were added that also kill, making it way more worth it to go for and chase with, as well as stall offstage. The same goes for slow frame 30 blunderbuss, making Kannonballs shot or reshot a little harder to react to as well as make the move less suicidal to use offstage and the same goes for teching the stage. Thank goodness the 6.0.0 patch made the Kroc close to playable and 7.0.0 did a little further. I have doubts for the next patches of Ult as the recent ones severely lacked changes that would obviously need adjustments, even to the casual side of the game, but if they ever make a patch that really addresses the flaws of low/bottom tiers and takes the meta of top tiers obviously needing tonedowns seriously rather than just fixing or making certain/random moves moves better, I'd gladly get my hopes back. I don't care for KKR's Day 1 nerfs as they likely came from complaints from casual audiences as they didn't really make him worse aside from the ledge grab detection reliability to me.
-also Chrom/Ike's Up B spike was stupid and deserved it and the same goes for the little rat-
It's like how they nerfed Little Mac's recovery early Smash 4 because people were complaining... so tragic...
@@WhyDo #JusticeForLittleMac
I loved 8.0.0 for king k. The buff to belly armor is nice, and eating any 12% or lower move with side b makes a lot of match ups way better. And I think it was also the patch with nair’s lag being reduced. When offline gets going, I wouldn’t be surprised if he comes out as the best heavy
@@jacksondavis8695 Even I have to admit, he's still not gonna be better than Bowser and I think his design will lock him out of being very close to him
@@PrettyKoolCrocodile I would consider the two in the same tier at least. There just isn’t a great K Rool player like Leon for bowser. The best known is Ben Gold, and he’s a little too gimmicky. Imagine if Leon didn’t play, people would think Bowser was a lot worse
27:38 Man, Incineroar’s Up-b went *nowhere* before the buffs to him. I’m glad they buffed him quite a bit since the beginning but he’s still sooo damn slow. I’m also glad these 3 characters aren’t our current top tiers (though the current online top tiers are killing me).
incineroar needs some smaller stages. tier list would be more balanced if we could play on something like warioware.
i play fox and peach and i guess in a vaccuum peach is better but then we start on ps2 and i'd rather play fox. battlefield obv fox. kalos, lylat, fd, anything with long horizontal distance is better for fox. and i guess peach gets smashville?
The thing about Incineroar is that his buttons are amazing. He has top tier buttons and low tier speed. It makes this situation where getting faster is what he needs to be good but being too fast would make him overpowered.
Why would they even buff pikachu? He is literally top tier ALREADY
Tbh I played ultimate for the first time in half a year recently and pikachus fair is still terribly inconsistent lol
@@largenaq2935 even so he is totally top tier
It's actually kind of stupid since pichu feels like a properly balanced version of him
@@jaydeejay4166 they’re similar but they play way differently. Pichu isn’t what a balanced pikachu would feel like
@@willkershisnik5893 no because he is balanced and you can't get away with the same stuff
The only way to balance pikachu without changing the way you play him is to nerf his damage
Edit: which wouldn't be fun or interesting
@@sirdabsalot1yt83 i play bayonetta and I feel this
Whoa! Nice video! I never would have thought to use an emulato-
Oh hi Nintendo! That's not an emulator! It just really good video editing that stimulates the old patches mhm not an emulator nope!
GETTING SUED BY NINTENDO SPEEDRUN ANY%
I'd love to see this series for smash 4. I can't seem to find any content with 3ds greninja before he was nerfed
Two videos in a row? Cool!
Also, Italy for the next Minecraft house reveal pls
Wow, I’m surprised, this is the content you’d expect from someone with 100k subs! Keep up the great content!
Pre-Patch Ultimate was nothing compared to the monstrosity of Pre-Patch Sm4sh. As if Sm4sh wasn’t a mess already. Let’s see here.
-Broken Diddy Kong
-More ridiculous grab combos (Luigi Down Throw shenanigans, ZSS Down Throw, etc)
-Random Infinites
-Crazy glitches/exploits that broke the game
-Nearly half of the casted didn’t even function properly or was just bad. (Ex: Falco, Ike, Palu, Dedede, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Charizard, Meta Knight, etc).
You covered up the mouse with another mouse
Me sitting here just wanting less nerfs and instead making everyone more powerful
Props for using prevailing westerlies man. That game and soundtrack is a bop and a half
Literally just V I B E S in game form :D
It's funny that you cite the Sonic buff as a testament to the patches sucking.
But that was actually a good buff, it fixed his Up Air which has been something he needed a long time coming. People just blindly hate whenever they see Sonic, it's not like they buffed fucking Spindash or something, they just fixed his Up Air, made Down Tilt a bit less mediocre and made his Up Smash not completely useless (still probably his worst move though.)
It's also worth noting they haven't "fixed" the buffer system yet because it's intended to behave the way it does. If it was really unintended they'd have fixed it like when they fixed how it buffered rolls for a massive window when landing and shielding, because that wasn't how it was intended to work. People just assume it's not working as intended because it doesn't work the exact way they expect it to.
Also, despite Mega Man's nerfs, the guy wasn't nerfed near as hard as Olimar or Pichu lol. Sure he had some potential infinites, but by that logic alone that means Diddy is the most nerfed character in Ultimate, but that's not true at all. Much less in the entire series, you said despite Smash 4 Bayo getting nerfed she stayed top tier (even though her pre-patch days she could kill off of winning neutral once 100% of the time,) but Mega Man's rough placement didn't change after the nerfs either.
Can't forget the fact that Chrom's up b killed first and can be easily comboed into
Dw thats just sak now
Brawler's soaring axe kick kills first
@chrispo Kinda, but to my knowledge there aren't really any combos which end with sak and carry the opponent offstage for the stock trade.
@@gamesandluigifan7152 there are. ALOT
@@cryingrat8574 Yeah, I just checked. My bad
Really nice video. I see your most recent video seems like it will be a part two and I’m here for this series! Also you have a soothing voice. Nice video
nice video. If you decide to do a follow up video some other interesting early balance changes are:
Luigi's dair nerf which failed to remove his 0 to deaths
Chrom's up b suicide kill nerf
Duck Hunt's side b getting absolutely gutted
Wii Fit's stealth nerf to side b in 3.0
The projectile shield damage nerfs removing shield break setups from Samus
The removal of z-dropping items out of hitstun
Already on it! :) Thanks for bring up the clay pigeon hitlag/endlag reduction which I forgot about - & I'd never heard of the wii fit sideb stealth nerf! Def gonna look into that!
Ahhhh, back when super missile+charge shot broke shields
you forgot to mention they also nerfed pichu dsmash, which had a completely vertical launch angle in 1.0 lmfao
Is anyone gonna talk about how pre patch mii gunner could break your shield just by playing a decent neutral? My go to set was 3332 cuz of shield stun.
Pre 3.0 every char with strong projectiles just destroyed shield
@@chrispo7610 but gunner specifically did it super well due to high shield stun from grenade and with a lot of projectiles basically comboing into themselves on shield.
I really want to see a look back on the 3.0.0/3.1.0 patch, considering so much has changed from this patch, plus, 3.0.0 Mii Brawler
22:00 that clip is insane
We not gonna talk about vanilla Chrom? The SS tier dude where everything could turn into a 6 hit combo and finish it off with up B that killed the opponent first off stage?
He can still do that, though. The only change was the order you die in from up b
Mario's head being blue is an emulation glitch on yuzu, once the emulator is improved it should go
I remember playing a bunch of mega man pre 3.0 and comboing pellets into fair. I was the only player in my friend group who played mega man decently. Then of course I quit the game for brawlhalla cause I was frustrated with the online connectivity, and when I tried to play mega man again after 3.0 I couldn't figure out why pellets into fair was garbage.
I feel like they went too far by making his standing hurtbox bigger than pikachu's
Sonic being buffed even tho it barely made a move work when it completely didn’t
I still don’t understand why people are still being a baby about Sonic getting buffed? It’s just mostly fixes, tiny frame decrease and damage increase. Those buff are just for his least used move. They act like spindash kills at 100 or something,
If there's a part 2, you have to mention Luigi's zero to death being much easier to perfrom and down b having insane invincibility frames when dropping from a platform.
Upsmashes don't care about your feelings
Me and my fellow pichu mains miss pitting our lil boy at the top of the tiernlist
I am glad you addressed it at 19:15
I wish they didn't completely gut Pichu, it was hilarious when he was the best character in the game.
Remember Chrombo? How he could just swing his sword for three stocks and win? That was fun.
10:48 i didnt know they changed pichus f smash sprite
Back then when I joined online spirit arenas there used to be arena titles that said “no olimar”, god what a mess that was.
I love that you called MagaMan's pellets "lemons", that's what I call them every time, always lol.
Validating my weird smash terminology based off of silly youtube videos. Thanks. :D
Nerfing the F Tilt and Smash was fine, but maling Pichu make himself more damage and a bigger hurtbox than it older version Pikachu was just stupid game design. They killed the character.
Pichu even unchanged wouldnt even be a top tier today. That was just early meta
imagine Pre-patched Megaman, but he can grab you while Leaf Shield is still active and not thrown like in Smash 4. used to do it all the time
That pallet swap blue and brown Mario on PS2 was actually very nice, that should be a skin
2:06 “You can see that if I put Captain Falcon at 100%, a vertical kill move will kill...”
*doesn’t even come close to killing falcon*
Also fun fact: Pre-2.0.0, Ryu and Ken could cancel DTilt directly into jump on hit, which made L.DTilt > Dair a true 60% kill confirm at ledge
You can still do the leaf shield metal blade cancel with Mega Man, it's just you can only throw it upwards.
You can also cancel it if you dash forward and pick it up during skid
Doesn't just work with Metal Blade, it works with near any item in the game
I was at pound 2019 It was literally the weekend after patch 1.1, But it didn't really matter cuz they played on the old patch. top 8 ended up being so bad. Literally, everybody played either snake or olamar. Even people that had more aggressive mains like Ally just couldn't compete with all the defense and it ended up being camper versus camper.
You are a great story teller I just discovered you keep up the good eork
They should have put a frame 3 bowser F-smash and then fix it 1 week later
That woule have been the funniest thing ever
You forgot to mention one of the other reasons Olimar up smash was so good was because it was always doing full charged damage no matter how long you held it. Instant, halfway, full charge, didn't matter, it always did full damage.
From what I understand, it was actually unable to be charged at all (it didn't increase the power over base)... it was just that broken already, doing uncharged damage!
@@WhyDo I stand corrected
i had a feeling itd b megaman he ws the biggest sleeper pick n his pellet macro cancelling developed so much in the first couple months 2 years on itd b melee ics, lemon salad ws frustrating 2 deal with but his zdrop blade infinite ws fully true n led to kills at any% n by buffering a phantom nair he didnt even have the random chance of blade disappearing
This is a great video, how do you not have more subs?
I’ll always miss Vanilla smash. You could decimate 98% of your opponents shield using Mii Gunner’s fully charged missile and charge shot at the same time.
24:07 Didn't expect to hear Hylics 2 music in this video lol
This video did not have to be 28 minutes long for three characters
They only exist now, in my memory
You can't say "most nerfed character in smash bros history" without remembering patch 1.0.0 sheik, greninja, diddy, and rosa in smash 4.
Those characters were fucking INSANE
Let’s also not forget “Meta Knight Da Bess” and “Bayo Me Say Bayo”.
Sheik, Diddy, Rosa, and Bayo def got nerfed a lot, but at the end of the day they were still able to win majors, and did. Greninja's nerfs were sad but I don't think he was close to being the best in the game even in vanilla Smash 4. Ult. megaman on the other hand... being able to cancel pellets and leaf shield is just so incredibly broken that I really think he might've been knocked down from the best in the game to high tier!
pichu was actually starting to fall off by the time they nerfed him
Some things I missed from the previous patches of Ultimate were Dedede's old Gordo hit box and F-Smash hitbox. Gordo's hitbox used to cover its spikes, and Dedede's old F-Smash used to hit tall characters shields twice.
Good ol' times... 😔
The gordo change was a buff, haven't you seen the gordo ledge setups made possible by that change??
@@jelloistasty I don't understand what you mean? Gordo's interactions with ledge have remained largely untouched since Ultimate's release. I don't see how shrinking the hitbox of Gordo from encompassing it's body and it's spikes to just it's body benefits anything related to ledge Gordo setups. If anything, you could more easily argue it hinders the potential of ledge Gordo setups, though that is far from I'm genuinely thinking regarding the changes the Gordo since Ultimate's release.
@@lordlyndis6969 the size decrease means they can slip past the ledge easier and catch people holding onto ledge, its size decrease made the spacing to do this perfect for ledge trapping with f smash. Look up D3nsitys video "gordo c stick ledge trap"
@@jelloistasty I've checked the video you brought up in the previous reply. The decreased size of the 'hitbox' of Gordo didn't mean they decreased the 'hurtbox' size of Gordo as well. Gordo's overall size has remained the same since the launch of Ultimate. The discovery of the ledge slip C-Stick Gordo tech has less to do with the reduced hitbox size of Gordo, and more to do with enginuity of players like D3nsity who managed to turn a needless nerf into an opportunity to develop Dedede's metagame in exchange. With that in mind, I compliment D3nsity greatly, though I do not think the nerf of Dedede's Gordo allowed Dedede to perform this tech in the first place.
I appreciate you directing my attention to that Dedede player so I can keep an eye on any new tech he discovers.
@@lordlyndis6969 the gordo wouldn't slip past ledge from that fsmash positioning pre patch. I'm not saying the gordo literally changed in size, the hitbox not being on the spikes affects how it bounces off stage (or in this case not bouncing and slipping past ledge). His edgegaurd became way better with that buff, gordos midstage were never dededes gameplan so nerfing the effectiveness of a bad strategy isnt as big a deal as how it helped his strengths.
We are in such a meta in smash ultimate where matches are 7 8 minutes long and pichu really wouldn’t even be crazy with its og size in the meta because how long stocks last at top play
really interesting video, good job :D
I kinda want to see vanilla Yuzu tournaments for just chaotic reasons.
These aren’t character balance related changes, but in the original version of the game, the red zoom screen done for the final kill in a match couldn’t appear for any final smashes.
Also, when starting a spirit battle, the music would stop playing during the loading screen and start up again when the match started. Now the song just keeps playing. Because of this change, the music for the Sandbag spirit battle was changed from Home Run Contest to the online waiting room song.
They aren’t as groundbreaking, but I find the changes interesting enough.
Great series, please do more videos on this