FAKE?! Did Honda CHEAT Their Nürburgring Lap Record?!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2024
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Videos used in this video:
Honda's Lap Time: • 2023 Honda Civic Type ...
Type R Nürburgring Test Drive by L'Argus: • Honda Civic Type R 202...
Ali's Lap: • FL5 HONDA CIVIC Type R...
Type R on Autobahn: • 2023 Honda Civic Type ...
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Disclaimer: the actions performed in this video are executed by professionals or individuals that consider themselves professional on a closed circuit within the local regulations.
00:00 Intro
01:10 "It's Normal"
02:04 Different Gearing
05:22 MORE BOOST
07:16 Mostly 5+6 Gear
08:14 Time to Beat
09:54 The last FWD ICE Record?
10:43 It was NOT a NORMAL Type R!
11:51 We'll have to try it ourselves - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
To support the theory of gears being shorter than the production model, take the frequency you can hear (produced by engine or speakers) at the same speed both in l'argus video and in the lap record video. In the lap record, in 6th gear at 237km/h the car creates a fundamental frequency of around 205hz, which means the engine is turning at around 6150rpm. In l'argus video, in 6th gear at 237km/h the car creates a fundamental frequency of around 190hz, which means the engine is turning at around 5700rpm (confirmed by the display reading 5600rpm). As long as the clutch is fully engaged, there is no external factor (other than rim/tire dimension, diff ratio and gear ratios) that could change the engine speed - wheel speed ratio (so it's absolutely not the weight that's making the difference).
If you're wondering how I got this result, I matched the engine frequency with szynalski sinewave generator (until I heard no more beats), then I multiplied the frequency by 60 obtaining the number of cycles per minute, then since it's a 4 stroke engine the cylinder fires every second revolution so I multiplied the last answer by 2, then I divided it by 4 (the number of cylinders) obtaining the final result
@@lucacrestini1337 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
@@lucacrestini1337 mind blowing work, dear sir, there sure is some shady business here. They underestimated people and thought they could get away with it.
People still havent learnt to not lie to the internet 😅
You might single handedly busted the whole corporation
Honda can’t void your warranty if you tune it to 26psi now! 😄
😂
That's a win/win i guess
What tune it stock and can do 26psi
Love this comment!!
and also I think they modified the oil cooler on it，there is no way that oil stay at 120 all the time and other fl5 easily reach to 130
THIS too.
Maybe friction modifiers? I dropped 8c on my forester XT using ceratec :/
especially running high boost 😂
Once a cheater, always a cheater.
But, other civic owners are free to install the same mods ...
Love that you and others are out here holding the car companies accountable
Doesn’t even matter. People are still going to buy it.
@@augusttangaan9545 yep, I sure am. Don’t honestly give two shits that it might not be the Nurburgring lap record holder
@@jameswillard1 Yeah lol like if the car still owns who cares
How about Porsche, no, scratch that, ALL the German manufacturers and their ridiculous power cheating, with their top models regularly dynoing 10-20% above claimed power. That's not even cheating, that's illegal, since insurance and taxes are based on those numbers.
🤣🤣🤣 holding them behind accountable, this is the business of making fun cars, get out more
No one batted an eye when Renault took out back seats and other trims, tuned the engine and other parts to become lighter and faster to try to beat the Civic.
Everyone is shitting bricks because of a shorter ratio. Great bias as always 👍
Wtf? Renault never tuned the engine. The car was sold without backseats, it’s the trophy R. They didn’t try to hide anything. But I guess this is hard to see for a Honda fanboy.
@@danisantos3255 clearly you have no internet to search for facts.
I'm not even talking of the trophy R, go backwards in the FWD story, like 2 our 3 gens and see what's been done to a normal Megane RS. The trophy R was sold after the success of record making the Nürburgring, it wasn't intended to be released, that's why it was a limited edition in the first gen.
No fanboyism, just facts.
Amazing video and technical dissection. Not surprised at all by this, sales and marketing is key for these companies, and spending millions on R&D not being able to get the "Fastest FWD car on the Nordschliefe" would've been crushing. Just like "0-60's and HP sell cars" so does "I have the fastest FWD car in the world" title. Thanks for all the amazing content Misha and Adrian.
as if they actually putting millions of RND on that CTR though . nothing different that can cost upwards that figure. just a touch here and there voila its CTR !
@@fktaufik9252 they are. Honda and all car companies refresh or make a totally new engine for the next generation of that performance model, same with the chassis being more tweaked to adjust with the engine's performance on track and road
@robertseitz2407
Sorry mate, but it’s not the same like Yaris and GR Yaris. Or Evo and regular Lancer. You can easily converting regular Civic into CTR, as the difference is so minimal. Heck they didn’t even add much extra weld and sealant for CTR out of factory.
The Renault Megane RS Trophy-R used a full exhaust, carbon wheels, more aero, ohlins suspension, Bridgestone Potenza S007 tires, and removed the rear seats to beat the old CTR. But nobody flipped out about that for some reason. Honda noted this is an S variant which will go on sale as noted, with some minor changes, and the internet looses its mind.
@JacobMueller
Thank mate, for voicing out the agony of 99.9% non S CTR owners out there. That their cars is not the one that get the record.
You can tell a racing driver by the tiny margins they notice compared to the average enthusiast... not just in feeling, but also the 'eye test' ... paying attention to detail can be the difference between finishing first, and finishing in the wall. Big respect to you and your 'friends' that are helping to try and keep these records honest. 👍
Lots of fluff, but I respect your admiration 😅
I was awestruck after watching the video, even though I thought to myself "that was almost too fast to be true" I never gave it much thought. I noticed the short 6th straight away, but I assumed that all Type R's had that ratio. The fact they changed it along with running 0.3 bar more boost just proves that they were aiming for more top speed on the straights (it hit an indicated 258km/h at Schwedenkreuz). The "S grade" thing is interesting, and I hope as well as being lighter this model also comes standard with the shorter 6th and runs higher boost, because that is the only real way that this record can be legitmised. Honda are literally the last manufacturer I'd think of that would try and pull a fast one like this...
Well, they already did this kind of stuff with the FK8.
All manufacturers act like this. Theres no saint.
But, these are just minor modifications that costs nothing, and they beated the megane that has the price of a car from the class above, also they could easily add these features to the production car.
@@picassoofai4061 Sure, if they're willing to honor their warranty on cars modified to those specs.
@@NutellaCrepe i think if they made a limited version of the type r for marketing purposes the warranty won't be an essue.
I was thinking to myself "wow that 6th gear is extremely short for a modern car" but I hadn't given it much thought after watching the lap for the first time. It's extremely obvious now that Misha mentioned it.
yep noted the same. car felt really stiff too but as haven't watched much TCR videos I don't have clue how stiff they are. Car was literally jumping everywhere.
Reminds me of that limited edition Subaru WRX NR edition (or whatever it was called) which I believe featured shorter gear ratios
@MrMorizoFan - then you should watch other vids... that is not only normal for that car, but is one of the top complaints. It was done by design, but stiffness is so extreme that some ppl will use comfort mode on the track.. but that isn't R+ mode.
@Dylan Nix I mean it's basically the same kind of thing. The car that set the record was a civic type r s which is apparently a lightly modified and lightweight version of the regular ctr
@@mrmorizofan7001 i watched another review on track by hagerty and theres was doing the same, just jumping and bucking in corners from stiffness and grip. deffs just how they are i think. But dang the 6th gear ratio and boost is a bit cheeky
They better release "Nurgburgring Package" for the car now.
I think you're on to something. I wouldn't mind if they cheated (like everyone else does) if they released a limited but full "Cheat Spec" edition to the public... 😂
They're ahead of you.
The fl5 used in record is a special edition "Type R S Grade" model, not yet sold.
@@g0d182 yeah I've heard, they said its for EU only sadly.
Great info. They're probably banking on the fact most people will drive no where close to the professional driver so they will never find out. The biggest issue for me is when they add an oil cooler and not let people know about it. No one wants to invest in a track day to find out their new "track" car overheats after 3 laps...
Its not about people not useing it there its because 95% of the owners get more out of a long last gear. for example cruising on autobahn.
Exactly
Aaha, just as Brian said. But don't let this distract you from the fact that the driver was Hector and he was running a Honda Civic with a spoon engine. And on top of that, he had T66 turbo, with NOS and a Motec exhaust that he bough from Harry's.
Fking Catalina Wine Mixer
Amateurs dont use NOS Brain !!
As a person who has tracked their FK8 preface lift. The boost solenoid harness pins broke and the car began over-boosting. By removing that sensor, You can see boost pressures jump from 21 to 26 psi. I'm not sure how achieved this, but the power difference was certainly obvious ( I was chasing a Cayman gts). Once those pins fell out of the solenoid, boost was going crazy. Seems like the ECU has a lot of safeguards to regulate over-boosting issues. My FK8 is tuned now and pulls 28psi with minimal issues. I can speak for the new FL5 but, I'd bet the engineers know all the work arounds.
I love the amount of detail you go over with support and back up with it. I didn’t see any flaw in your argument- just observation and research used right 🔥🙏🏻
I am so happy I found your channel. For starters, I find you an amazing intersting and well spoken person to listen too. Secondly, your driving skills and knowledge about cars is insane and just by looking at your videos, some of my (off track) driving has become better.
Now a subject like this came up and you are so well versed in all the details and the way you present your points, 10/10!
Hopefully I can meet you one day at the N-ring. Looking forward to watching many more of your videos. One of my current favourites is you with the GT3RS @ Spa!
Great video Misha! Always accurate info. I have to say when i watched the lap record video i was weirdly amaze by the power the car had on 6th gear on the straight with the long uphill… so yeah, you have a point there with gear ratios and turbo pressure.
The other thing… dont forget Cupra’s HH
Car enthusiasts will now see FL5 as a pretender. What a shame.
Nah, FL5 is a cheater! LOL
The only way they can cheat, is if they lied about the actual time.
If they used different gearing, a more powerful tune, or some enhancements to the car, then it's not cheating... it just showing you what the car is capable of.
The car did the time claimed... hence no cheating.
None the less, they should have come out with the improvements they made over the standard showroom car for the record.
P.S
I'm not Honda fan... never owned one and almost certainly never will.... this is how I feel.
The fact that things like boost pressure and speed in certain gears is clearly shown, shows they are no trying to hide anything.
At the end of the day, the car did the time.
I'm a Honda fan for 35 years, have been owning Honda cars exclusively all that time, many of them tuned, I've been on the Nurburgring 5 times, and I don't have the slightest problem with them doing this, because I understand why. Most people don't know crap about cars and don't realize the difference between tuned Seat diesel and Honda TypeR, and that's why all these laptimes exist. Anyone who thinks better laptime equals better driving experience don't know anything about cars. Also, that Megane Trophy R is almost not a production car for double the money, it just existing is a cheat comparing to any real production hot hatch you can see on the streets everywhere, it's not even in the same class, but all people understand is a smaller laptime number, while there are many more important things which makes a great sports/racing car. I would take a "slow" NSX-R NA2 before most 500-600-700 horsepower supercars, because it's about car feel and control, that's what's creating adrenaline and enjoyment, not a great laptime from a 500hp diesel car.
It would be easy to check the speed and engine revs in 6th gear at any point and calculate km/h per 1000rpm, and compare that between the cars
I LOVE journalism like this!!! Great job!! Keep up the awesome work, you're channel rocks!
FK2, FK8, FL5 uses Bosch ECU, it does not target boost, it uses torque target. That means the boost pressure is depends on the requested torque, intake air temp...etc. The stock ECU has a stock maximum boost limit, which is 1.8bar. Also it does not have boost by gear, it has torque by gear. The ECU calculates what boost pressure needed for the requested torque.
Interesting info. Thanks
And the FL5 turbo is smaller than the FK8 turbo. The FK8 with a complete intake and exhaust is pressed hard to peak for mere moments at 26.xx psi. But this smaller turbo stock intake and exhaust FL5 was hitting it with no custome tune? No way ever.
If you know boost cmd on hondata and ktuner, you can set cmd to whatever for tq request, but that by no means guarantees you'll get that value. For example, at 2500rpm in 3rd, wg cmd is set to 0.00 and boost cmd is set to 25psi, but at wot that value isn't touched till 3500-ish? Point being, just cause that limit is there, that doesn't mean it's possible in stock form. FL5 tests and vids show 18-21psi by everyone who's posted EXCEPT this particular car. Hmmmm.
@@nathanwright783 I never said it's not possible it had a custom tune on it. I said it does not target boost and has a max boost limit higher than 24psi. If you know Bosch ECU, you can access a lot more tables other than what you have with Hondata.
They prob put some sort of high octane fuel in it allowing the ecu to target more boost
You’re right but what people are essentially saying is that they have increased the maximum torque that can be requested, essentially raising the boost pressure assuming other conditions are relatively constant. It’s unlikely to be running this much more boost on the same track as the production versions because it’s hotter on a normal day?
Thanks for the great video my friend. You ask who they are fighting against in end and I believe the answer is themselves. I've seen a few tests that show the old model quicker than the new one.
Congrats on the video , very detailed information .
Echoes of Shmee's video about concerns over the SSC Tuatara claimed 331mph run....
OGs will remember
Gearing, wider 200 treadwear tires, maybe slight damper changes (my thoughts when I watched it). Thinking more, probably some brake pads too.
I have to mention from the FL5 Nurburgring record judgment by many others: I don't understand the animosity of the few people who say it's cheating. And here's why: For reference, the record set before the FL5 was by the "Renault Megane RS Trophy R" and no one cared when that one “wasn’t stock” and released in limited numbers (about 500) for homologation purposes (If you could call it that). Basically to say: "We released this version to the public, so the record stands". Meanwhile, Honda comes out with the FL5 Type R “S” (also releases it in limited quantities to the public) and everyone calls it cheating… As far as I’m concerned, Renault started with the “not stock” record. And making the Type R "S" version the stock Type R (as in: the one sold as the ONLY Civic Type R available) would be too bare bones for most buyers to bare with no comfort for the normal road. As it is a race car version with many items/functions of comfort stripped and a different gearing that is not suitable for street driving. It's kind of like a double-edged sword: damned if you do, damned if you don't. Not to mention, lots of FL5 owners are switching to the Integra Type S's ADS because they find the ride to be too stiff. So the FL5 broke the record. But I still see people calling it cheating. It makes no sense.
Wasn't the Renault Megane RS Trophy R also a gutted interior? How is that not considerd "cheating."
@@VenomizedSupra I agree. I guess the fact that they released a limited amount of that version of the car "homologated" it in a way. As if to say: "See? It's a production car" but it's not the *MASS* production version. So I guess Honda returned the favor with their Type RS.
It's mostly just chinese and korean car shills who couldn't stand seeing a Japanese car achieve a record.
Been watching for awhile, but haven't subscribed.. THIS made me subscribe! Bravo, sir. You're channelling your inner 'RingZilla'.
I was pretty sure the gear ratio is shorter - on stock car you can reach on 4th about 198- 200kph, the 6th gear is somewhere around 285-289kph (real speed 275+), here it hits limiter at about 247kph... (249-251 is reached by downhill). Maybe there is really going new track limited edition on the market but they should inform properly.
Love these analysis 👍👍👍👍👍
Wow, nice analysis. I was bound to watch it till the end. Great work to you and all the people who put work into it.
keep coming with more videos like this Misha. I appreciate to hear your thougths on subjects like this
official laptime: 255 km/h Schwedenkreuz jump in 6th gear at 7000 rpm
Largus laptime: 242 km/h Schwedenkreuz jump in 6th gear at 5500 rpm
Hey Misha, amazing video and analysis. The sad part is not that Honda cheated , it's that the hot hatch segment is dead. Maybe 5 years from now when we all have EVs we are going to look back to those popping and cracking FWD, inefficient cars whishing we can drive them more.
Anthropogene climate change is scam!
Dont say "when we all have EVs" because more and more people see the bullshit they are telling us regarding EV and green nonsense...
Even if Porsche's E-Fuel saves the combustion engine, I can't see any company reviving a sport's division. It truly is the beginning of the end for all ICE motorsport.
I've never been a Toyota fan, but both the GR hatches are massively impressive and seem very fun.
TRUE :(
Misha it's really cool to see this kind of video. I previously commented on your "1000+hp GTR" on the Nurburgring video. Main reason that the guy didn't push his car, anywhere close, to like it could or should have been pushed and, because I personally felt like you kind of should have, or could have pointed that out, said something to the driver. (he was such a poor driver and poor owner of the GTR) He didn't let you drive, then used the excuse of "transmission temp" to stop the run. (@120 degrees C), when GTR's are safe to 145C. Nissan state that beyond 115C it just needs to be serviced sooner. It was a 1000+bhp owner that knew nothing about his car.
I was disappointed because I felt that you should have called that out in public. So I'm really happy that you are calling this out. Really cool video.
Also, yes @09:50m the competitive sector for the type R is dead, 100%. The closest that we have left would be the Toyota GR Yaris to keep the hot hatch sector alive, but that is also AWD, so can't even compare it to the Type R. All of us old school HH lovers have nothing left.
The Hyundai i30R would definitely be my pick in this sector. The model with the LSD only though!
Last note, it would be really cool if you could do a comparison run video with the type R in stock form against the record run, either with yourself driving (because I think you have the skills at Nordschleife) or another "Honda Specialist" driving the car. That would be amazing to see. Have to make sure they were on the same tyres though!
Keep the content going man, I love watching 👌👍
Totally makes sense. Great video Misha 👍
Hi Misha! I think also that the Honda driver made 3-4 serius mistakes with his driving. You are the expert to confirm that!
True
I agree, the needed 0.5 seca, almost could have been obtained with just removing those errors
Yo creo que ha ido muy al límite y ahí es donde se cometen los errores. Me parece una vuelta muy buena.
He could gain at least an entire second by changing gears right.
I can drive better. 🌝
"Cup 2r will be available to order form Michelin directly." O, like anyone can do. That's ridiculous. This is why testing cars on unequal tires is total crap. I have always been able to slightly adjust my lease price to get summer tires over all-seaaons. It was not a VW option, but it was a commonsense option for where I live; you need winter tires in winter. Now VW gives you summer performance tires on the top version of the GTI (Performance model). As for which exact tires, dealer didn't know. But if a manufacturer gives u crap tires I don't see how that should be used to establish what a car is capable of since negotiating tires if easy at time of purchase. They should make cup 2r the standard tire for Nürburgring lap times. Ditch the tire excuse nonsense and show us what a car can do independent of a simple tire choice.
i guess we'll have to wait and see if the production release of the "s grade" actually runs more boost and shorter gears as shown by the car they used.
Excellent video, thanks Misha. I don't comment much on here but do watch many of your videos. Your analysis is reasonable and well considered, also you've got a fantastic presence on camera.
Honda already used a very modified Civic in the past record run attempts with previous gen cars, clearly using different suspension tuning and tuned engines. I mean, if a car in the record run accelerates harder on uphill sections of the Nurburgring than it does in any video on youtube on straights, it's suspicious. As for this latest run, the car clearly drives and behaves very differently compared to any other onboard of the Type R on any track. The car in the record run was VERY pointy, very sharp front and very oversteery, like every single steering input made the rear end step out slightly. I already wrote this on the Honda official video, but if they sold a car set up like that to the public, 99% of people would crash the first time they'd push a bit on the road. That's a polar opposite of how the stock car behaves which is actually quite lazy on the turn in, not as sharp as the last gen Type R even. Took me 3 corners of the Honda's official run to see it wasn't stock. But I guess Honda was too desperate to break the record of a 5 year old Megane RS that's not even in production anymore officially by like a split second of time difference. Would be funny for Renault to just do a light ECU tune on the Megane and take off 5 seconds off the lap time for lols.
Renault can just put better tires and still be faster. No need to even do a ECU tune
Every company does this ;)
I won't be surprised if all Renault has to do was putting Cup2's on Megane to scoop the time by 2-3 seconds. For whatever reason, they went with Potenzas with Megane 4 which were trashed by absolutely everyone compared to Michelin.
Could the oversteer on corner entry on the record setting car just running an extremely aggressive track alignment? Something owners wouldn't do?
Is the car even capable of being adjusted that far? Or would this require significant hardware modifications to the suspension to allow that much adjustment.
@@lowstrife No, there's too many obvious modifications and changes to be just an alignment matter.
I think all Nordschleife rekord Type R versions FK2, FK8 and FL5 were modified and not quite stock. in the FK2 at the time the car had a roll cage etc. it's a pity, but that's how marketing works... in my opinion it's unnecessary, because the production version is powerful enough to achieve a respectable lap time.
Great video , love this analysis.
Nice Analysis Misha. How do you compare it to the FK8 Facelift or LE? Probably a better bang for the buck
Megane rs trophy - r full price, with full specs as the one who took the record was 72000 pounds, around 78.000 euros 4 to 5 years ago, and it used special ceramic brakes (gold), racing pads, was striped and had 2 seats, other suspension components and settings, other wheels , no AC, no infotainment, and 0.2 in total more boost. Thats why prices for the trophy - R varied
(depending what extras you were adding to the car) and you could find a trophy-r from 54000 to 78000 euros. On full spec, price(72000 British pounds) was almost same as a cayman rs4, and of course the specs of the car had nothing to do with the "ordinary" car. As we all know, all cars cheat in this competition, and all manufactures cheat in everyday cars (have you measure the real emissions vs the omologated ones?) :). Have you ever heard of diesel gate? So If Honda Type-r changes were only shorter 5,6 gear and 0,2-0,3 more boost pressure in 5,6 gears, with certain syspension tweeks without changing syspension components - breaks as trophy-r had, then i think that its a huge success and cannot understand why people pretend that they dont know what kind of changes seat and renault had to their own cars :)
I can imagine that they maybe raise the boost pressure for a special Version. That could be in the room of possibilities, even when I don't think that, because they don`t mention it nowhere. Still it would be possible. What I don`t think is possible so easy is changing the gear ratios, as that would result in a completely new homogenization for emissions. Not the thing manufacturers spend their money on lightly in that low volume segment.
Also in the Video they compare with the old model, that makes no sense, maybe the new one has shorter 6th gear
Yeah but realistically, how detailed are the checks that are done before these record attempts? They could get away with these things if they only do it for the car which sets the record.
I doubt they will release a version with raised boost pressure. Why? Emission tests. They'd have to pass them again. It's a long and costly procedure.
@@xIcarus227 pretty sure the RS3 wasnt running stock boost either
@@yvesstocky9936 it's highly possible since its competitor, the A45s, is about 8s slower on the Nurburgring yet on other tracks they're both neck and neck.
Wouldn't be the first time VW/Audi lie.
Great video, thanks for analysis
It is a limited Production Car that is only going to be offered and Available to the European market, so therefore it will not just only be lighter I don't think, will still have to see the actual Specifications when it is released. It should be similar to the LE Edition of the FK8 with a few tweaks here and there compared to the Standard FL5.
heard that it has
-air con removed
-gps removed
-parking sensor removed
-trunk panel and hook removed
-auto dim mirror removed
-sun shield removed
-auto flip mirror removed .......
You're forgetting they swapped out the factory Michelin Pilot Sport 4S for aftermarket semi-slicks like Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2.
@@KP-xi4bj right, totally not a stock car xdddd
@@bennywongbbb No kidding, it's not a stock car. Notice that no production FK8 or FL5 Type R has set a lap time on the 'ring? Heck, even the supposedly lighter and faster FK8 Type R LE has not set a lap time on the 'ring either. Honda is pathetic, having to lie and cheat in order to stay relevant. LMFAO SMH
@@KP-xi4bj You can buy Pilot Sport Cup 2 from the Dealer, at least in the U.S.
@@madbikes That's not the same as buying from the factory. These are aftermarket dealer-installed tires. No different than going to your local tire shop and ordering them from there.
does it even really matter, I take all these laptops with a grain of salt. 99.999% of the owners of any of these cars lack to skills to even hit 8mins
I think changing the gearing was the worst part. You could increase boost with ECU programming only so one could argue that the expected user base of Type R might be doing that. However, replacing gears for a gear or two would require custom built precision machined parts to be swapped inside the gearbox. That's not going to happen by the real world customers.
Honda are such tryhards. The FK8 lap time was interesting too, although I haven't looked for evidence so can't suggest it's fishy. Still, as any woman will tell you, faster is always better.
Seriously though, it's a shame laptimes, especially 'Ring times mean so much now. For those of us who mostly drive on regular roads (i.e. basically everyone), why does anyone even care? Drive a Lexus to the track with a Lotus on a trailer to drive round it, it'll be cheaper than an FL5 and better in every single way. Depending on the Lexus, more fun than the FL5 on regular roads too, if the FL5 is like FK8.
For the record, I really don't hate Honda or the CTR at all. The old NA CTRs were incredibly fun and the turbo ones are fantastic GT cars, albeit poor hot hatches but that's fine, whatever. I also get why the fastest 'Ring time sells cars. It shouldn't, I'd bet on Misha on a pushbike over 99% of CTR drivers, but still, its sells cars. This level of tryhardery though? This is where the Top Gear laps had it right, perhaps we need a young, attractive racing driver to independently test each car in road spec properly? I wonder if Misha knows anyone? 😂
Civics are one of my favourite cars from the EF. But now you have highlighted this. They've gone down a few pegs in my books now... Will still always love the them. But not so much the FL5 now. EK9's BABY!!!!
EG6 all day here🔥🔥🔥💪💪💪
Wow.. I'm so blown away by all the detailed investigations by all the "detectives". So technical. So much knowledge. So keen. Amazing job at catching the fony!!
How do the new curbs and asphalt affect the lap times?
Misha makes a comparison to the Megane RS time being very little, but that laptime was set on the old track surface.
The newer track is much faster, everyone says that. The Trophy R time would be faster nowadays!
I think Honda should have made a Nurburgring edition of 500 units with a shorter 6th gear and 3psi more peak boost. The Renault Megane RS Trophy-R used a full exhaust, carbon wheels, more aero, ohlins suspension, and removed the rear seats to beat the old CTR. But nobody flipped out about that because they "made 500 units".
@@JacobMueller Not even 500, it was 30 for the special edition ones that broke the previous fwd record.
@@adim00lah Thirty units still considered production according to both Guinness Book of World Records and FIA.
1:45 I remember when Alfa Romeo said that the Giulia QV did 7:32 completely stock with Pirelli P Zero Corsa
Interesting video Misha, I know that Honda has done that before.
I had an euro spec EP3 Type-R back in the days and I know that the JDM version had more power and shorter gear ratio in the gears 4, 5 and 6. this was not really communicated but it was nothing secret in Honda forums.
Maybe! This will be the case with the new one?
The JDM variants also had an LSD
@@MattBeardless true, forgot that.
I am surprised and confused. No idea why a big company would do that. Especially when you already have a really good product.
Honda's involvement in F1 is no doubt influencing their thinking. In F1, the general ethos is "if you're not cheating, you're not trying".
@@larrydunn4626 I think thats all racing. If it isn't directly against the rules, then go for it.
Marketing. What marketing manager wants to run advertising stating "We have the 2nd fastest front wheel drive car on the 'Ring".
Not the first time Honda cheats
I wonder if they ran the car and couldn’t get the lap time so had to change things around to get it
With frequency sound analysis, you can match engine rpm to the vehicle speed shown....and get the overall gear ratios from that.
With the caveat that video and audio are not necessarliy in sync.
Thank you for bringing this up, your doubts seem very reasonable. Schöne Grüße
Bet they up the boost and gear ratios on those Type R S now.
They will… after they see that they got exposed. But it will be even more limited than the Trophy-R since it isn’t viable to produce a car with such mechanical changes
Honda's performance cars like the Type-R's are offered with varying performance specs. ie. JDM models usually have higher performance numbers, like higher boost pressures, higher compression, and other options not found in N.A. or European markets. So, if they combine the best offerings for every market, then a 'tweaked' Type-R with JDM spec-ed components is valid.
No different than what Porsche or AMG has done in the past.
BMW was also lying about their engine spects for many years. GM horsepower was not equal to the other brands too. I don't know why everyone blames Honda for setting a record with special type R that will be released as factory model for Europe.
Also gear ratios do sometimes differ between European and Japanese models, one example of that being the KB1/2 Honda Legend (the JDM gearboxes are more sought after apparently).
The cinematography of this particular video is OUTSTANDING! New camera? Settings? Something appears very different.
The cheating FL5 Type R is different! LOL
great vid keep up the good work
I still love the type R
Reminds me of the 1990’s when Toyota tweaked the boost in their Celica GT4 rally car
Hey Misha, can we here in New Zealand not register on the Gapped site?
I'm wondering if it was the tune and gearbox from the upcoming integra type s which is going to have a slight performance boost over the type r. Hence the "special" type r s model designation.
There’s possibility for that. As all FL5 engine was build at Ohio.
Can you do the same type video with the record of Mégane RS Trophy R ?
im pretty sure they did the same...
@@Racingwespe Yeah, their record was also cheated as hell. This is kinda lame, i wish those times had actual value...
@@RealLeskot Unless Renault had hidden performance modifications, atleast they made the car the actual officially available one, as you can spec the car they used as one of the 500 Trophy-R's they made.
@@tinyrodent2821 Stripped down, no interior with additional weight reduction. That is as fast as i´m concerned. Either way, it shouldn´t count.
@@RealLeskot that's how the trophy r car is, you can buy it literally like that
All of these times are probably suspect and not indicative of the car that you buy off a lot. Simply changing the alignment settings could make quite a difference. If Honda was smart they would say, if you want to replicate our Nurburgring lap time, here is a factory gear set you can buy, and this tune, and we will install it for $3000. They would sell all of them.
This is the CTR-S version as noted in their press release. EU release only.
It would cost Honda money to certify such a combination - one of reasons why manual transmission models are being discontinued
Also would need the higher boost tune to meet emissions requirements, certification and engine durability requirements
And they would probably cancel your warranty if u choose to install.
1st time I saw the lap video I immediately understood that the car is too fast. 100-200 takes 3 second less than normal.
I remember us discussing that, mate
Just put semislick on Renault and it would rape the Honda. Renault did it on those Bridgestone Potenza S007, big difference.
What I noticed in two Record videos, is that Renault starts timing just before first corner, whereas Honda just behind last corner.
Imagine. The civic only got a 0.5s advantage in a newer and faster NS, cheating and with semi slicks that are much wider. The RS trophy R would demolish this pathetic cheating car in the same conditions
@@danisantos3255 yey! trophy r is the best! /lame
Do you think you can order a TypeR with those gear ratios and increased boost?
I understand why manufacturers do it but it does undermine the results. Really manufacturers should give their cars over to an independent testing group if we want all cars to be trustworthy. How much more bhp would .4 bar be in 5th? 80 90?
probably more like 60 tops that's a bit less than 6 psi more. It'd be more if motor was larger to start with / stock turbo was larger
@@papa_pt definitely an advantage then, combined with gearing changes
Auto Motor und Sport, if I’m not mistaken the name. Is a German magazine that regularly taking some cars that they test to Nurburgring. If you’re looking for independent tests.
Thanks! These kinds of vids are cool!
Great video misha thank you for the info.....why don't you try to make a fast lap with an fl5....and compare the difference....
if he cant go as fast.. people will just say bec honda "cheated" hehehe
All we need is the data of speed that was carried through the corners, and speed trapped at straights. That’s more important than lap times. And silly you for asking someone to do a lap but not paying Nurburgring to close the track for him, lol
DO you think maybe depending on region, the CTR runs different maps? So lets say a Japan market CTR has a slightly higher boost map vs a EU/UK one due to emissions? Doesnt explain the gearing, but might explain the boost.
its highly unlikely. mainly because that affects reliability thus changing service intervals(since engine has to take more boost more wear on parts higher temps etc) which should be universal for all countries more or less
The cars tested on the Nürburgring have to meet german/european specifications
@@davitavazneli3506 actually it happens, the Subaru forester XT runs more boost on JDM/AUD spec than US and European, about 10hp More
@@514aam when it comes to japanese domestic cars and rest of the world of course but my point is different. they wouldnt change boost settings for a uk and german cars
Nice way to try to save a cheater.
Isn’t the first time Honda have changed gearing in their “special edition” cars. The one that comes to mind is the EP3. The JDM spec EP3 had more hp than the UK model as well as a much shorter final drive as well.
I'm under the impression that ALL these types of records (be it Honda or anyone else) were done with cars that are tuned for the specific track, sometimes quite significantly. To me, this isn't much of a "Gotcha!" but more of a "Yes, and...?".
I knew it! Oh boy. :) btw Subbed for your great channel, thanks for all this superb content!
Thnx!!!
Hi Misha, I thought when I watched the video yesterday that there was something very "racy" regarding the suspension. The way it bounces at max grip (full torture)(without just sliding off the track into the barrier) says this has been set up like an old GP N racer using every trick in the book to keep it planted.
There are very possibly alterations to account for discrepancies, but I can assure you that suspension was not likely to be one of them. LOL. You should watch other vids... that bouncing is not only normal for that car, but is one of the top complaints! It was by design, but stiffness is so extreme that some ppl will use comfort mode on the track.
@@flychomperfly It’s the slippery slope. If they already modified the car in some ways, who’s to say they didn’t make tweaks to pretty much everything?
That was probably caused by the geometry shift that happens when dual axis steering works at the corner. And add weight shift during cornering to the table. We get a weird suspension frequency that bottoms out like it was too short and rebounds way too fast instead of progressively. They should bring back double wishone at front. As it will also give many options for end user to tweak their suspension setup.
Great video. I wish there was a tuning company that would take stock cars, optimize these “hidden” things as much as possible, and see what the result is. Even tires, better bushings, better brake pads, lines and fluid, extra oil coolers, etc. can significantly improve how well a vehicle drives. Not just sports cars, but anything can be improved to feel & perform better on the road.
That's basically what 034 motorsports does for VWs and Audis.
Not like most folks here don’t already know…the weight doesn’t affect the gear ratio or the boost present during the lap. Of course the car would be faster if it was lighter, but those are two pieces of hard evidence that the car was not truly a car available from factory with those changes. Personally, I don’t have a huge problem with those modifications, I’m just not for the lack of honest representation. It resembles Apples handling of their battery issues in the earlier iPhones, which would’ve not been a huge issue if they were just up front and honest about the facts.
I know the I30N in US the Elantra N. It pulls on a type R until the type r starts pulling away later in the gears. I think the N would be insanely close if not have an advantage in acceleration. I hope Hyundai gives it a go just for the giggles.
This just tells me that with only a few tweeks this car is even more impressive.
It's more than a few tweaks. It was missing the A/C! LMFAO SMH
@@KP-xi4bj The megane didn't even have back seats, and also no a/c. I see nothing wrong with doing an apples to apples comparison of these cars.
Atleast the fl5 didn't gut the back seats.
@@adim00lah If you are going to buy an RS trophy R u will see that all of them dont have back seats. And dont confuse it with the RS TROPHY
Yes, BUT... with a 'few tweaks,' how much more impressive would the Other cars be?? LOL
Modifying transmission gear ratio needs more than "a few tweaks"
Only one way to find out give Micha a type r s and see the time difference
best way to do it? go buy a stock FL5 and let the same driver to the lap.
5:13 how about if honda were to offer an optional gear ratio on the civic type R.
because in the US market, the 2023 Acura Integra Type S has got a shorter gear ratio apparently.
My theories for shorter gear ratio is..
They were using michelin pilot cup 2 tyre that are lower profile...
Which have smaller overall diameter and circumference...
Which in return will change their effective overall gear ratio...
Means smaller tyre diameter = shorter overall gearing = faster acceleration
As for boost.. probably they throw in "kill map" overboost function that also possible available in type R S version later...
There is no way modern car boost controll that sloppy allowing more than 0.3bar of boost variation in different part of the world...
Misha thank you for holding these companies accountable, you’re officially my favorite TH-camr
Honda: We used a different variant of the Type R, soon to be on sale. The internet: tHaT wAsNt A sToCk TyPe R!!!
@@JacobMueller where did Honda say that? I’m genuinely curious. If Honda have said this then it renders all the “ChEaTiNg” accusations pointless as there was a special variant of Megane too which broke the record and not the production car.
@@allyance8846 Honda said is was the civic type r s grade that broke the new fwd record. Tbh I think VERY few people know that is was a special edition megan rs trophy r with the nurburgring record pack that broke those records, not the standard version.
It's people who don't know shit about cars on here crying about it.
@@adim00lah yea it’s only available to the Europe market they announced and hasn’t been released yet. I hope they disclosed that it was a S grade variant, before the lap.
@@mrb6144 Well, what if the lap came out and it didn't beat the megane, they would have looked stupid. Honda did do a press release the day of the video posted stating it was a limited edition civic type r s though.
Megane didn't do this, and nobody was calling them cheaters, fake, liars etc.... Megane had a limited edition trophy r that beat the previous fwd record, and people were arguing with me 4 years later that no limited edition existed.
So clearly Megane wasn't very forthcoming with this information if 4 years later people are arguing with me about it.
Honda should just build this car as a Nurburgring Edition, its acutually an amazing ca!!!
The FL5 used in the record lap video had auto rev match and Pilot Sport tyres. The Megane Trophy R has no auto rev match as you could see the driver using heel and toe in the video, the car also had Bridgestone Potenza tyres on for some reason, instead of the Michelin PS’s (and we all know which tyre is better). I still genuinely believe the Megane is the faster car, even with it being 5 years old.
I agree. Megane with the same conditions would be much faster
Mate, the one that wearing Pilot Sport 4S is regular FL5 driven by Randy Pobst at Willow Springs. The one at the Ring is S grade special lightweight edition, and it’s on Cup2.
Renault just added lightness. Unsprung lightness. Carbon ceramic brakes, carbon fibre wheels, did not give a shit the parts were not made in the home country. Also the RS diffuser works a lot better as no IRS in the way of things. Better and wider tyre on the RS would take another few seconds off.
So Honda's saying it's okay to remap your civic type R 😊
i think if renault would re run the megane rs trophy r it would be faster, as the track was somehow damp when they recorded the record. plus you can look how hard the honda is pushed compared to the renault
Definitely. I hope that Renault brings it back to the reworked track with Cup 2 tires. The Civic is cheating and only got a 0.5 sec advantage. Imagine the Trophy-R in the same conditions :)
@@danisantos3255 The regular megane rs trophy r was not the one that broke the nurburgring records. 500 of the regular megane rs trophy r's were made BUT only 30 of them were the nurburgring record pack version.
How many people till this day, know the regular megane rs trophy r didn't break those records, but some special edition that cost £20k more?
I want honda to take out the back seats and put in a strut bar like the megane, then we will have an apples to apples comparison.
If Honda "cheated" so did Renault.
@@adim00lah Wow! Sour grapes Hondumb fanboy still at it like a broken record player. Thirty units of this so-called "Nurburgring Record" editions is still considered a production vehicle according to Guinness Book of World Records and FIA. There is no such thing as "regular megane rs trophy". Just Trophy-R with different optional packages and if you have the money you can spec one just like the car that set the 'ring FWD record. LMFAO SMH
It was pretty obvious that the special version broke the record and that it cost huge amounts of money. It was disclosed too. Don’t be butthurt and paste this comment all over the place, it’s mostly willywagging of the manufacturers. The Civic is a great hot hatch, lot’s of fun to drive and plenty fast. Also, english plural is not written with an apostrophe.
@@adim00lah everyone knows the car equipped with the carbon ceramic brakes and carbon rims broke the record. and the previous fk8 who broke the record had gutted interior, a full rollcage installed and bucket seats, and they didin't sell that version to the public. you can see all of that in the fk8 record video.
Wow.. and that was the comment I left on their video yesterday.
I said "wow you guys left a lot of info out of the video description. Stock tires? Same as production car?"... guess I know why they didn't answer now
Hi Misha,
I distinctly recall watching reviews on the launch of the new Honda type R, that it was stated that the Japanese models had more power & that the exported models were de tuned?
Doesn’t justify the different gearing.
@@danisantos3255 But I wonder if the local Japanese models also had shorter gearing & other extra features that weren’t available on exported models?
Don’t think they go extra length for that. Since the engine was built at Ohio. It only make sense from production cost if you importing complete drivetrain from US to Japan.
I got the answer for you. Most likely, they are using the tune setup for the Integra Type S, which is using the same engine, but tuned differently to get a max HP of 320, which Acura released. I believe the stock rated HP on the CTR is 310-315 maybe (FL5 might be different from the 10th gen CTR released in 2017). That is my guess, but as far as the trans, they are probably using a unit from their TC vehicles. Go figure :)
No, the imcrease in boost seen, I think it makes it go from.stock 320 to around 350-355 bhp (in Europe the car is sold as 320 bhp, and fir sure they were using the highest octane fuel available)
@@alamos8 got it! I forgot that in the US, things are tuned differently than in EU.
Transmission can't be from the TCR cars because those run paddle shifters. Not sure about the national-level TC cars that HPD North America runs in the US - those might be similar-ish.
@@alamos8
Totally agree with you. I drive an FK8 as daily and its tuned to ironicaly the same boost levels we see here. To 1.7 bar which is a dumbep down verison of a stage 2 map from a known honda tuner. Just to be save side.
@@Pittsburghborn95 In Japan the Car makes 330hp using the Highest Octane Fuel they have, All the other markets have lower HP due to the Fuel Octane they have.
When I first saw the lap I was impressed by this 6th gear pulling and close ratio. Then I checked that in autotop Nl..Even i don’t own the car, it’s a bit obvious. Now if we take into consideration the proof were provided(comparing videos and bars..) it’s pretty clear that is a significantly different car (and lighter according to Honda). We are talking at least 5-10 sec gains here.
Renault did the exact same thing with the megane rs trophy r. They had a limited edition nurburgring record pack for the megane that cost an additional £20k more, that is the one that broke the records, not the standard trophy r. But for some reason everybody is shitting on Honda but not Renault.
@@adim00lah There you go off again like a broken record. The Trophy-R lapped the 'ring first BEFORE Renault put it into production to sell to the general public, not the other way around like what Honda did with the FL5 Type R. The Nurburgring Record edition as spec'ed like the Trophy-R that lapped the 'ring is for track use, the non-Nurburgring Record edition is for everyday use.
But yeah, carry on being sour grapes, Hondumb fanboy. LMFAO SMH
@@adim00lah you could buy it off the shell with those parts after they posted the time
honda sold the car, modified it and set a record and you cant buy that spec of car as of right now
The hyundai i30N with the newer turbo would have enough power in my opinion especially if you are able to achieve the fuel learning which gives it a couple more psi of boost
Nope not a chance lol
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