Mindful but also playful, at the moment when the mass shifts to the front you can get more rotation out of the car than you would cornering only using steering.
Had an RT Durango thats was prone sometimes, but due to more body roll. Have an open diff, & a staggered setup with good TC in my IS350, I'm thinkin it would be hard to unless high speed corner, in which its not set up for anyhow.
I've been driving rear-wheel drive over 50 years and if you drive it like a Porsche you won't have any problems just remember slow in fast out that's the only way that it is absolutely going to work 100% of the time
@@f.kieranfinney457trail braking and slip angle are the fastest when combined but also when using slip angle you can over do it, and make the slip angle a drift which is slow out but medium/fast mid corner, or you can under do it?/not brake/steer enough, so you use trail braking but you sre too slow/not enough steering to make slip angle work so you understeer Also slip angle is not perfect bcs its more risky than just be little slower, in more sporty cars you have very low space for error when you doing it in long turns, its also easier in short term, like in f1 when they use slip angle in fast and short corners, they use it almost all the time.
Very well done. I've been driving FWD all my life (not by choice) and recently had the opportunity to drive a BMW 318d touring. It totally resonated within as the RIGHT driving setup. Look forward buying a RWD car as soon as possible. Best wishes
FWD really depends on the type of car. Most FWD cars (including most older hot hatches) arent that exciting to drive, because they are designed to be understeery (easier for non-car people) and they lack the most important part: an LSD. A FWD hot hatch with a proper setup and LSD is a night and day difference. When I started getting aggressive in my i30N for the first time I nearly hit the inside curb, because I was expecting the car to understeer like my previous hot hatch and not turn in perfectly.
@@xXYannuschXxYes FWD+ LSD is a legitimate setup. However FWD cars are inherently flawed. All FWD cars hang the majority of the vehicle’s weight on the nose of the car which is bad for accelerating. And then there’s the issue with demanding that the front wheels both turn and apply power. Cars like the i30N, Civic Type R, and other hot hatches have done wonders to mitigate those effects, but at the end of the day, getting out of a FWD car and into a RWD car is always a night and day difference.
@@Soh90 " However FWD cars are inherently flawed. " - Not really. Depending on the conditions and tracks FWD cars can have advantages over RWD cars. Nissan for an example even tried a Le Mans FWD car (which sadly failed due to numerous technical issues and caused Nissan to retreat from the LMP1 class). The biggest advantage is the "point and shoot" characteristics of FWD, which can allow the driver to use more aggressive driving techniques and/or drive more consistently. Fun fact: with RC cars there once was a FWD buggy platform, which was rediculed back then, but when the first people used them for racing they won easily against the RWD ones. The problem got so bad they had to put the FWD buggies into the AWD class.
Another key thing to consider is smooth inputs. Whether its, throttle, brake, or steering angle.. smooth inputs won't upset the car nearly as much as quick and heavy inputs.
This video should be MANDATORY viewing for every Mustang driver out there. It seems the majority of them are not familiar with any of these concepts! haha My old E36 328i manual with no traction control taught me a lot of this stuff about 20 years ago. Fun car. Kinda dangerous, but fun.
Maybe you need to drive more cars then…some are harder to do certain things than other. You’re pretty much assuming you could whip the old mustangs like your Beamer…you think you’re different
@@notlohhcaz No thats not what I was saying. I wasn't making a direct comparison between the cars, or saying that I was inherently better. Just noting the very obvious lack of skill so many Mustang drivers seem to display in attempting to handle their cars. Admittedly the same could be said of some BMW drivers too, especially more recently. But there must be a reason Mustung drivers are the butt of so many jokes.
@@soundseeker63 I got you but to answer your last sentence. It’s the car…combined with drivers that don’t have the skill. So both. The way it’s been explained to me is that the older models with live axle tend to be easier to whip out but recovering can be very hard for somebody without lots of practice. I wasn’t much making a car comparison, I was just saying that could be you with your current skill level if you hopped in one even if you could whip your BMW. I just wouldn’t be cocky is all
Growing up driving an F150 with the gear shift on the steering column, it was a LOT of fun to downshift during a corner on a dirt road to snap the pickup around and then hit the gas once you got it settled. Just had to make sure there wasn’t a fence nearby until you learned how to do it. Untangling a pickup truck from a fence is a pain and dads really don’t like scratches on their trucks.
Whilst I already knew all of these concepts, I only knew as far as "Don't do [this] but do [that] instead, or you're going to have a very bad day." The grip points system really gave me a much deeper understanding of why you lose control. Thanks, this really helped.
I would like to add 2 important "safety" point for public road spirited driving: 1. Only drive up to 90% of your ability. Most people overestimate their driving ability, especially in high HP cars. 2. Let faster drivers pass you. This is especially important when you are in a older car that have no ABS and Airbag. I always had people in SUV and Pickup truck trying to chase me on the hill. One time, a Landcruiser almost spun out behind me when I was on a twisty downhill in my ND MX5, in the end I let him passed for his own safety. I could had easily out run him but it wasn't worth it. I was there to have fun, not tragedy. Now I have an FC RX7, I don't care if a semi truck wants to overtake me on the hill. This car is too precious to me. 😂
This is some of the most important rules I try to teach my friends when we go for racing together, and they keep sliding their bmws and then blaming their cars, this video is perfect !!!!
Trail brake can be usefull (but dangerous) on agressive sports driving to be faster. You can downshift while cornering if revmatching perfectly and fast, with a car you know well (that is without rear diff weirdness). PDK owners probably do it all the time, and conventional TC autos without you telling (not the video point I know). Non-double clutch robotized might upset balance. Pressing the clutch gets all tires rotating at contact speed, which might help regain traction if handled gently (in ice works great). 4WD allows you to escape most the limitations...
My best advice is practice all this stuff on autocross days they're relatively affordable, and they're in parking lots that are normally local to you. In the worst case scenario you hit some of the cones and suffer a little bit of embarrassment however you get to drive your car home. Track driving is One step above this, more expensive (time prep and cost) and is relatively safe. However practicing this stuff on a b road or canyon you are asking if not begging for something bad to happen. It may not even be your fault people Cross Lanes all the time, and all it takes is for them to clip you or for you to panic and you are in a really bad situation. There people in your life that would be devastated if something happened to you. If you don't feel like you have people like this in your life. Know that some random guy on the internet, cares about you 😁 Stay safe ❤
And those deer tend to be out… or areas where they put the cows out… Cow vs car is pretty ugly!! I always drive the same section 2x after some recon, but never > 80-85%
I damaged my first car by hitting a deer, it ran out from the side and the road was wet, I kinda just froze and braked gently and hit it going about 20MPH. because I didn't want to lock up the brakes and slide nor did I want to swerve because the road was built on the side of a mountain... Smashed my headlight surround a bit on it's rear end and it just ran off seemingly unharmed... Spoiled a 1980 model car that was in real nice condition at it's age. I was pretty upset... There was deer poo sprayed all up my bonnet too, it literally crapped itself lol.
Based on the simplistic, beginner nature of the video presentation...it is something to be avoided for the target audience, until they get some slow practice in a safe place. Even beginner track enthusiast get taught to brake in a straight line prior to turn in, at least until they start to get the hang of things and the feel of their car. Almost all of us have been off into the grass backwards as we started learning to trail brake. Getting good at it means learning how to smoothly implement it at the right time, for just the right amount of time, getting just the right amount of rotation in a smooth and controlled fashion to affect a small correction as necessary. You SHOULD be pointing the car at he apex of the corner 95% accurately without it anyway, with the real goal of the trail braking simply to allow braking later, with the ability to use it for small corrections when required being secondary.
@@xtnuser5338 If your not using every tool you have to position your car, someone else who is will be passing you. Not much of a problem on your daily commute, but at any kind of competitive event the point is to be faster than the other guy. You can't leave anything on the table if you want to win.
As an advanced trained driver, I wouldn't recommend heel and toe on the road. Rev matching is a good start, but mastering double de-clutching is the best method to practice and will protect your clutch and gearbox at the same time.
@@Aleiza_49 Double clutching is essentially rev matching but saves wear on your clutch and gearbox. You can do it all day long on your road car without messing up the syncros in the box. It's actually smother than a simple rev match as well, as you're correctly aligning the whole transmission to the engine.
Having owned way more RWD cars than I have FWD, I've always found RWD intuitive. FWD I struggle with their lack of adjustability on circuit but they're definitely not slow when driven well
They absolutely are not slow when driven wheel, but against a RWD car they always will be. Easiest and most accurate way to test this PRINCIPLE out is in driving simulator that has great driving physics, like GT7 and then using a 4WD car that allows you to adjust the Torque distribution of the drivetrain as you want. Send the power all the way to the front axle, and you will have understeer pretty much anywhere, having higher lap times than sending it all the way to the rear axle. In fact, depending on the car, they can actually go faster on a circuit with power all the way to the rear vs a 60/40 4WD split.
@@pedinhuh16 "They absolutely are not slow when driven wheel, but against a RWD car they always will be." - That depends on a car. TCR cars with ~340 HP have similar laptimes to GT4 cars that are more powerful (often 400+ HP). Your example of changing the front/rear torque distribution in a 4WD is interesting but it doesn't account that RWD and FWD cars are built and set up differently in order to better utilize the strengths of their drivetrain and better compensate for their drawbacks.
Great quality for a first video; congrats! I pretty knew all this already since I've been driving for 32 years, but instructional videos like this one are a must see for many (not so good) drivers out there. I subscribed to encourage you to release more great content like this!
liftoffs in rwd is when rear tires experience engine braking, it is more like pulling the hand brakes for a moment. liftoff happens to fwd as well, it is when front tires regain grip again suddenly with a weight shift to the front that makes the rear a bit lighter and more grip at front. this one is easy to overcome, just floor it, don't counter steer too much and you will be fine.
Well thats just how driving was, until about 25-30 years ago. You learned these principles pretty quickly in old RWD cars with power, because you HAD TO! haha
i don't even own a car, and i won't for years. but that knowledge will help me pass the drivers license easily. at least i hope so. if i don't forget it. . . That's why i watch these vids daily! make more because everything you say is easy to understand, the video is well edited making it easier to watch. You rock dude!
You will not need this for the driving test. That would be a dream scenario if they included stuff like this! I am glad you are already taking an interest. Be safe and be smart.
Yeahh to the creator. this is a really really really well explained video! Beautiful really. And to you - Remember to drive gently and not make sudden jerky movements and obviously make sure you know and carry out all the laws and regulations and you should ace it :)
Great video. I have had a few snap oversteers during autocross events, with full 360 degree spins in the blink of an eye. The car is a 2004 Porsche Boxster S on Hoosier A7 near slicks. Situation is driving right at the limit, trying to delay hard braking a bit too late into a hard corner, discovering I should have hit the brakes a bit earlier. So, when I lift off the gas suddenly to get on the brakes, I’ve demanded too much of the rear tire grip. The things I’ve adjusted are loosening the rear stabilizer bar a bit, going one size wider on the rear tires, and trying to overcome the fear I won’t make the corner so I can trust the tires, suspension and car balance and make it around. If I don’t, I only suffer a few cone hits and don’t score on that lap. Of course, next few laps I’ll hit the brakes a little earlier on that same corner so I can settle the car before the maximum cornering force is demanded of the tires. In this car for autocross, the entire course can be run in 2nd gear with no clutch demands. On a track, at higher speed, I drive a GT4 with autoblip, which mitigates part of the challenge here, as downshifts are rev-matched by the ECU. I tend to do more of my high speed braking before hard turn in so that the apex and corner exit are more steady on the grip challenges. With a little bit of trailbraking, to assist the rotation, these higher speed corners in the GT4 feel great from the driver’s seat. That said, my instructors with Porsche mid-engine experience tell me it’s only a matter of time before I experience a snap oversteer event from driving at the limit - that I should always have that possibility in mind approaching every corner.
Good video. Raced and Rallied for a number of years when i was younger. Always do your braking in a straight line and power through and out of the corner.
I believe the downshift in corners one is actually used to initiate oversteer for drifting and rally sometimes, its called shift lock. If i remember correctly, Keiichi Tsuchiya used this technique
Great review. I already knew this, but it’s always good to refresh your knowledge. While watching this video I kept thinking about how none of this is taught in driving school in the US, at least as I recall. These are considered _advanced driving techniques,_ but really every driver should know these points because many of us will unexpectedly encounter them during normal driving. As for traction control, I think I picked up this concept from motorcycle training, but it applies to cars too. _You can either brake or steer, pick one._ Tires aren’t very good at doing both at the same time. Brake before a turn/curve, steer through it, and accelerate out of it. Techniques like trail braking should be reserved for race tracks because they leave little room for unexpected hazards on the roadway.
Gotta say i had a blast driving back my NC MX5 from Italy to France on small roads, with the trunk loaded of heavy things, worn out summer tire and going on some snowy mountain roads... And it reflect perfectly what you said in the video about all those possible cause for the rear to spin out
A lot of high speed / high RPM corner stuff involves doing unorthodox things like left foot braking while keeping the right foot on the gas, but how hard or soft depends on whether you're going uphill or downhill.
Basically in an RWD car, always let the steering wheel to telegram its wilingness to unwind on its own when accelerating or lifting. It will 'talk' to you after some time and will tell you if it was too much steering or throttle. But one can always expect that when in a turn, loss of traction (for one reason or another) will most likely induce oversteering. One exception is when you have an LSD that was set up to lock under coast. That might give you understeer when lifting in a corner.
Roll throttle, roll steering wheel, roll brakes. Always roll on and off when possible. Be light and gentle with your inputs. In a straight line you can sap off the clutch and gas all you want, but always roll on gas and steering no matter what.
With Front wheel drive I tend to back off my throttle on entry to corners and seem to have better overall control of the car, it seems to stay more stable (ie. flat) and the back end just flows around beautifully.
I grew up in rainy Washington state, used my car to get me to school, work, snowboarding, mountain biking, and hunting. My 1st car was an 6 speed, LS powered Catfish, I mean Camaro, then I went through 2 regular cab short box, manual transmission, 350 Vortec 5700 then 5.3 LS, pickup trucks. Then I had a BMW E36 3 series in Germany, a 3.6 stick shift 2 door JK rubicon. Another 5.3 RCSB 5speed pickup, 5 spd 4.0 Ranger FX4 level II, my 1st automatic a VQ powered 2001 Nissan Pathfinder, Canyon Duramax, and currently a 6 speed manual Xterra proX4. The only time i've ever slid off a road was during a snowstorm in a front wheel drive car. You can really feel the difference in rear wheel grip and how the vehicle rolls during the start of the turn. I thought not being able to turn the car using the gas pedal was a giant handycap until I figured out you can drift FWD cars by using left foot braking.
I was taught to get the car settled in a straight line and then leave the brakes alone and balance it on the throttle to carry as much speed as possible . I was always spinning my tuned Mini Cooper. Always my fault, but the one time my Spitfire swapped ends I was a passenger.
I have a 71 f100 with a mild built 390fe, t19 manual and a full spool in the rear. Power sliding is how I get it around turns, to keep from from snaping another axle and gives max control for the turn. This means ploting out a turn before hand and set desired speed before hand, so if I need to slow down I will no lift down shift and then back back off the throttle some to engine brake before hand. This ensure I do not loose control of steering and is predictable where Im piching the rear if needed, and keeping a higher rpm means can back off the throttle more to slow down more if needed. It is also important to keep as much distance from objects as possible, so if there ends up being more steer than desired I dont have to rush a correction. Say the rear wanted to pich more because it hit a wet spot, I will back off the trottol first, wait a second or two before corecting the steering, and then get back in the throttol if needed. I know how to and have had to dirve it before, in snow and ice conditions with no traction drifting the hole way to the destination. In those condition, slow and stead is the best path to take so that control is maintained. So basically I do not use the brakes much unless wanting to come to a full stop, and will down shift through each gear with no trottol till Im back in 1st or 2nd before braking. Also is good to know the engagement point of the clutch, since is as far as the clutch needs bliped to get it in a gear and can leave a gear with out touching the clutch. As for steering, if rear is pitching one way the steering gose the other way. So if I want to get the rear to pitch in a desired direction, I steer out slightly from the turn, then I will blip the trottole to get the rear loose as Im lightly steering into the turn, then wiped the wheel the other direction and then slowly recenter till I have control of the slide.
We should also be aware that counter steering is a two step process in that you must correct after the counter steer to bring the car back under control.
For the braking and turn-in, the optimal is always to induce a neutral steer to the limit, but as mentioned in the video, it is highly skilled and car-dependable.
Extra weight at first can definitely throw you off, but after you get used to it, you can take corners faster and harder than without the extra weight. Gotta do your math though. For best results, just add enough weight to give your vehicle a 50/50 split. Or as close to 50/50 as possible. Make sure to account for your butt in the front seat.
More please this is great. I tried my heel and toe as i once did in my Audi of many years back. I nearly broke my nose on the windscreen. Modern cars are now equipped with maximum brake force and counteract that with abs. No fun anymore.
I honestly thought that lift off oversteer was just caused by tires that are spinning in a drift suddenly catching traction and accelerating the car in the direction the car is facing rather than the direction of momentum in the drift. Your explanation never occurred to me and I thought I'd already understand this one before hearing it. Thanks for educating me.
It can also be induced via a stiffer rear swaybar… for better or worse Personally I like an aftermarket stiffer swaybar up front and OEM in the rear… it leads to more compliance on public roads
3 decades as a heavy haulage driver, some very sound advice here, which they really ahould teach people as the learn to drive. People should be taught to drive all three, RWD, FWD and 4WD. The roads wouls be a much safer place to be.
Slow in, fast out may be an old racing concept, however, it does work to help keep control when cornering. So does simply not accelerating during a turn and letting your cars momentum carry you through it assuming your not entering the corner at too high of a speed. At least these are some things I've learned from racing myself.
Best learing rwd was while i was driving Merc w124 , abs wasnt working due to something damaged , no esp eletronicts etc. Heavy winters or icy roads was hardcore and since i was a student back then , hadnt money for decent tires. School of letting of a gas on those roads even on straight line was so hard ! You literally had to be very gentle or your rear would be in front , same as shifting gears and letting off clutch pedal :) Fun times but looking back forward now .... i was kinda irresponsible XD to drive on bad tires. But even now when i drive w203 which is automatic , maybe it has some kind of traction control but sometimes u have to shift to neutral from drive to not spinout (on icy roads ofc) or even shift to neutral while breaking , beacouse front abs working , engine still pulling some power and u are not stopping in 10/20kmh range. And another good "tactic" while i was overtaking a car , guy decidec to overtake also , i was forced to hit side line/ grass line (around 100km/h) , so what u do is never letting of a gas and u will make it. I made it in winter +-0 celcius conditions , when u hit grass dont change your gas pedal , not letting off or not pushing even more , just go take the grass and u will be fine :) Cheers for rwd fans
Useful information, increasingly important as car technology increases. My Volvo V60 Hybrid can be FWD, RWD or AWD changing modes seamlessly depending on the propulsion system selected as the petrol engine drives the front axle and the electric motor drives the rear or both ends can be driven simultaneously. Fortunately the chassis engineers did a fine job in maintaining a very neutral balance for all modes with a pretty good turn in, essential given the combined 400bhp the vehicle can offer.
Very good. We are so muscle memory trained to let off gas in most situations when road driving that you must really practice this carefully. We can’t really practice oversteer anywhere on the road. I wish we could, because lift off oversteer did cost me a car because muscle memory in FWD cars kicked in and I let off. I wish you could legally practice this in parking lots, but we are really limited to the few and far between tracks with skid pad training.
Yes, the limited opportunities for practicing frustrate me too. Habits can be trained on the simulator - the behavior and control (including ergonomics) of your own car can only be trained in real life.
@@SorinQuill yup I use my car in games like Gran turismo and a wheel/manual shifter setup all the time. I so badly want to take my actual car to an empty area and just go wild finding the limits and learn. Can't though because everywhere around me would have police there in a few minutes.
Things you left out. In heavy rain, your front tires climb on top of the water. This happens at about 55 Mph or 88 K/PH. Pick your entrance point into a corner. If you start a right hand corner on the right, the corner gets deeper. Brack and downshift before the corner. Modulate the gas pedal up and down. Another way of doing this is called heel and toe. This is where you have part of you foot on the gas pedal and part of you foot on the brake pedal.
Years ago driving an automatic front wheel drive, at the speed limit early morning frosty road. Driving down a small hill then crested the other side lost the back end may be all four tyres. Was in the zone feathering the steering wheel to keep control. Did this for about 400 meters coming up to sharp bend. Split second decision to touch the throttle gained control and managed to drive the bend. There was car coming the other way on this quiet country side road and if I hadn’t touched that throttle I think it would have been a head on collision.
For all points, find a back road near home that has little to no traffic, and practice. Start out slow and listen to everything the road and your car tell you. Eventually you and your rig will become one.
If we must slow down (5:07) or brake (13:09) in the corner, we may use brakes without lift off throttle, then slow lift the throttle while speed decreasing. All these things may be more necessary to use if the car has more neutral characteristics (i.e. when driving at a constant speed in a curve, both axles - front and rear - lose traction at similar speeds). In cars that understeer is strongly (manufacturers prefer to release such popular cars because they are easier to control), these techniques may not be so necessary. However, if someone sets their car to have oversteering characteristics (rather very few sports drivers try to do this), then they are already familiar with these problems and techniques and know how to use both. Another important thing is the abruptness of the change in characteristics, how the car reacts when changing the balance. Despite the understeering characteristics, in the situations discussed in the film, oversteering may occur. This is influenced by many car parameters, including bumpsteer - changing the suspension settings (wheel alignment and camber) when it deflects.
This is also one reason you see so many pick up trucks with wrecked bumpers & grills. Slamming on the brakes to miss the idjut that pulled in front of you transfers a majority of the weight forward, lightening an already loose rear end. No traction plus rear brakes sketchy equals a bad day.😢
Great video! I would add the compromised vehicle stability during costing. Ideally you always want to have either your front or rear suspension/tires under load (accelerating or braking). You have to avoid coasting, especially on curved roads.
Ok, a few fundamental points that most people, even yourself overlook as it's convenient to your explanation. true over steer and under steer are characteristics of steering and suspension geometry, You can get additional forces that can be altered by literally changing the parts but not altering the geometries, these are dynamic as you're explaining and tyres, both create the illussion of over steer and under steer, but they are not the same thing. In essence they are the same thing and it comes down to tyre deformation or slip angle in other words, the amount of grip a tyre can produce given the forces acting upon it. This is not steering and suspension geometry, but it may be effected by it. The problem is when you meld the two phenomina to make it simple, it's actually ignoring the root cause and then the method of actually stopping it from happening, if you can! Some suspension designs like swing suspension you can't stop the over steer as it is inherrent part of the design. You can however lower the vehicle to stop the point of the issue really coming into play in real terms, but you can't actually stop it, less lessen it to an acceptable amount. Once the grip is lost you can no longer calculate the geometry and tyre slip angles so therefore it must be a loss of traction (as you have little or none) and thus becomes a skid. Most people unfortunately still characterise this skid as part of the over steer or under steer phenominon, it clearly isn't once you actually understand the difference in the two. Under and over steer do not change because of speed, they are finites of angles, they are calculatable. They do change if the angles change so another force is added or subtracted etc, but once the arc of the suspension or steeering is to the permissible maximum it cannot alter further. What you are explaing it tyre slip angles and the forces acting upon them, this is NOT over steer or under steer, although the real world visual aspects are the same initially, but then they change a lot! Here is a simple way to verify if it is tyre deformation or suspension and steering geometry; change the tyres or their pressure. If it acts in exactly the same way, it's over or under steer, if it doesn't, it's deformation of tyres, and thus grip rather than over or under steer. The simple thing to rethink is loss of traction is a skid, over/under steer is a characheristic od suspension and steering, not tyres. As soon as you start talking tyres, you're off the topic of over/understeer in reality. One final point is you state "lift off oversteer" What that actually is is when a rear wheel lifts off the road, so presents 0 traction, so all the traction has to be gained to the outer wheel that is overwhelmed and the slip angle is exceeded and thus a skid, basically a driver error of some kind, usually going too fast into the corner and this is not due to suspension and steering characteristics per se, but one suspension is bottoming out (full extension) but as no tyre is in contact the angle of the wheel is a technical irrelevance at that point.Tyre dynamics are a whole subject in themselves. The term is obviously being corrupted to mean something different, what you should be calling it is a engine braking skid, as that is what you are actually describing. There is a massive difference in a wheel lifting and the throttle being removed. One thing to consider on this is if the rear wheel does actually lift, the traction will likely bee exceeded because of the torque being applied to the wheel, either positively or negartively in regards to rotation direction, so the inner lifted wheel will either spin faster if power on, or try to reverse the direction in the event of (full) throttle dropped off or somewhere in between the two depending on driver input. If there is still some traction then you'll get the tyre trying to do the same but with resistance and that is called a loss of traction and thus a skid. As for not pinning you down to actual figures, actual figures are obtainable to both tyre deformation and steering and supension geometry factors, they are a mathermatical principal and thus able to be calculated. Skids, are generally not able to be calculated as too many variables, but as physics, it is still possible. Food for thought: Why is the phrase "turn into the skid" not "turn into the over steer"? There is a reason for that, it's expained above.
Oh, blipping the trottle on gearchanges is to gring the input shaft and thus lay shaft up to the required sync speed so the gear can be changed faster, easier and less wear on the gearbox. Again you're stating a weight change by either pulling off the throtle or changing gear that doesn't happen, there is a stress change, ther is a torque change, there are a lot of changes like the rear suspension uncompresses as no drive forces on it, but that is not a weight change, Braking would induce a weight change or better described as an altering of the dynamic centre of gravity of the car AND altering the caracteristics of the suspension and steering via geometry - ohh, back to what under steer and over steer actually are. One thing to note here is the tyre deformation massively changes so you're taking away londetudial grip forces and reliant soley on transverse grip forces, the tyre cools, becomes harder wich in turn gives less traction to compound the loss of traction from the longdetudial grip forces.
Best way to learn good techniques with a rwd car is to buy a cheap dirt bike and go play in soft terrain with steep hills. You’ll learn very quickly about throttle and brake control. (And of course clutch control if you want to drive a manual car). Down shifting before a turn can unsettle the suspension. IOW rules like these are only a starting point because IRL things are way more complicated.
Friend and I have been racing on my rig, a in my breaktime I've seed this video and it helped me to drive at least slightly better, on a first try 🙂 thank you 🙂
Having the knowledge allows you to be mindful of different possibilities given different inputs. However only practice and experience will allow you to do stuff like this comfortablely and safely.
Same thing for a motorcycle for number 2 in the safety course they tell you never to down shift while cornering as the power will cause the rear tire to slip and go into a lowside that can kill the biker.
Most of this tips also apply to all cars , fwd awd rwd whatever Essentially, smooth is fast Jerky sudden changes bad However it is the most critical on rwd
I will suggest if you’re taking your foot off gas pedal immediately hit gently the brake and at the same time gear down and throttle the half way out of a corner
Weird how once you get a feel of a car's weight shifting. Even when you "intentionally" do these things. Instictively you know how to react and make the correct manuever
Addition to the list at 10:40; Tire pressures. Little high on fronts and little low on rears could help to carry oversteer point higher speeds. Thus the car tends to understeer instead, which is safer.
If you dont understand how a cars weight transfers and the effects it has you shouldnt even have a drivers license in my opinion. Drivers ed in the US is a joke.
Well, consider that anyone following the rules of the road will likely never encounter oversteer or understeer. In northern states, we learn about controlling the car in slippery conditions, such as snow and ice. How to control throttle, braking, and steering to prevent bad outcomes. So, its not direct "counter steering to control a drift" training, but it translates to everything else. In states without snow or ice, bad weather conditions cause a mini apocalypse because no one was taught how to handle slippery conditions. TLDR, states train drivers differently depending on where you live
5 หลายเดือนก่อน +4
There'd be a lot less cars on the road. About 99 % of drivers do not have the slightest clue about weight transfer.
@pfunkle born and raised in wisconsin. They didn't teach me any car control. Just because you follow the rules doesn't mean you'll never have to avoid someone else or an animal. Knowing how to control a car has saved me more than once. It should be mandatory in all 50 states.
If they taught it, it would be common. Every driver should spend time on a skid pad with a kick plate and a professional driving instructor. If we did this, it would save many lives each year because people would have the knowledge and training to maintain control in bad situations. It wouldn't be stop it entirely but It would reduce fatalities significantly.
I have recently bought a Toyota MR2 Spyder, and its practically impossible to make it oversteer. You have to combine aggressive driving, weight shift, very fast cornering and gas liftoff just to make it slightly oversteer. Or just floor it on the 2nd gear. But other than that, that car just grips the road like a F1 race car.
Great ... Now I got no excuse for crashing ... Thanks a lot Sorin Quill ! BTW... great video. Enjoyed your accurate insight and it helped . Thanks again !
I use a isuzu trooper 87 carb it's little tune on the carb and it use a/t tires I use downshift on sharp curves that must of regular cars will loose grip at 25 mph and I do it between 45 to 35 mph without risking upcoming traffic and I do it without 4x4 the trick is use the clutch entering the curve to change the weight distribution at the same time you steer earlier than the corner so the front goes first then at half curve you downshift but when you start lifting the clutch ruff you go full throttle all this at the same time your steering the direction you want to go because at high speed you lose traction just use it in your advantage. In front wheel cars, your front loses grip, let go gas and brakes just steer only play with throttle as needed when steering its not working at 100%. All my life has been how fast I can take curves using different cars and have been challenged many times with faster cars, but they can't keep up.
Well done and good to see AC put to educational use. This is a good explanation of the performance circle that is taught in just about all racing schools.
Very good video. I subscribed to wait and see if there will be more quality content like this, and not just one project and that's it. Now it's a matter of creating a process to ensure quality/speed production (searching, writing, editing...) , therefore good content Congrats mate, lovely work
I cant tell you how many times I've noticed drivers on the Nurburgring not opening up the steering after the apex and then expecting to accelerate normally. Car starts to slide for a moment, they let off the gas and press the brakes. You probably know how this ends .
Project cars 2 indeed teached me all of these... i didn't know nothing what i was doing wrong so i talked to a friend and he said what i was doing wrong ... dayum nice tips to be honest XD
Driving an old tweaked vw bug can teach you a thing or two on how to drive it safely, once you get the hang of it, all the correcting or corrections while driving becomes normal to you
Had a bit of a close call trying my brother's nb miata on some nice Austrian roads. One curve turns out to be tighter than it looked so I am both coming in hot and bam, rear slides out Counter steer worked nicely, even though I got some snap oversteer going the other way Only part that left the road was the rear left wheel for a few meters. just digging through some grass at enough of an angle to get grass and dirt stuck in between wheel and tyre. No damage to the car other than the wheel getting a tiny scuff, plus having to deflate the tyre to get the grass and dirt out I definitely got lucky though as there was some oncoming traffic just a few hundred m further away, and I definitely used both lanes in that curve ☠️ I also plan to buy an mr 2 roadster later this year
when braking the weight and mass of the car remains the same but there is a torque around the front wheels that generates a force that lifts the rear so the normal to the surface is reduced thus friction force is lowered but the inertia of the rear remaining the same so it can generate the same force, there is higher chances of losing grip
i would say those mostly mistake really depend on the car design and set up and how you going to use those weight transfer, lift gas very denpend the suspension height setup, like setup the rear wheel low height to stable the brake, less weight transfer to the front. LSD and tyres grade would help how long to full trottle or half trottle the gas. FR FF MR, totally different. but most people seem to be not going to learn and feel the momentum direction of your car, after you have understand the moentum direction of your car, then you will know how to use those sliding and run your car faster
Basically, drive your RWD ride like a motorcycle, with the same rules. I know I became a much better driver, just by feel - and especially of RWD cars after I became a biker as well. From observational skills and reflexes, to cornering and braking rules, how and when to downshift, etc. If you really want to rock out in your car, I suggest you also get at least one bike and learn to ride it well, including MSF.
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
Essentially, any time the weight gets shifted towards the front axle (removing traction availability in the rear), we need to be mindful.
Yes, thank you!
Mindful but also playful, at the moment when the mass shifts to the front you can get more rotation out of the car than you would cornering only using steering.
@@VexxedSR AKA Trail Braking :)
Exept for front wheel drive cars.
Had an RT Durango thats was prone sometimes, but due to more body roll. Have an open diff, & a staggered setup with good TC in my IS350, I'm thinkin it would be hard to unless high speed corner, in which its not set up for anyhow.
I've been driving rear-wheel drive over 50 years and if you drive it like a Porsche you won't have any problems just remember slow in fast out that's the only way that it is absolutely going to work 100% of the time
I could show you plenty of folks that could screw that up too, lol
And that’s not the fastest technique 100% of the time.
Trail braking allows fast in, fast out.
Yeah but not in a early 911. They are of devil worship and it will claim you every time. Ha ha ha ha
Especially efficient (for the lap time) before a straight, where exit speed is key.
@@f.kieranfinney457trail braking and slip angle are the fastest when combined but also when using slip angle you can over do it, and make the slip angle a drift which is slow out but medium/fast mid corner, or you can under do it?/not brake/steer enough, so you use trail braking but you sre too slow/not enough steering to make slip angle work so you understeer
Also slip angle is not perfect bcs its more risky than just be little slower, in more sporty cars you have very low space for error when you doing it in long turns, its also easier in short term, like in f1 when they use slip angle in fast and short corners, they use it almost all the time.
Very well done. I've been driving FWD all my life (not by choice) and recently had the opportunity to drive a BMW 318d touring. It totally resonated within as the RIGHT driving setup. Look forward buying a RWD car as soon as possible. Best wishes
Thank you for your comment. I hope you find a great car with rwd
I like to call Front wheel drive, Wrong wheel drive lol
FWD really depends on the type of car. Most FWD cars (including most older hot hatches) arent that exciting to drive, because they are designed to be understeery (easier for non-car people) and they lack the most important part: an LSD. A FWD hot hatch with a proper setup and LSD is a night and day difference. When I started getting aggressive in my i30N for the first time I nearly hit the inside curb, because I was expecting the car to understeer like my previous hot hatch and not turn in perfectly.
@@xXYannuschXxYes FWD+ LSD is a legitimate setup. However FWD cars are inherently flawed. All FWD cars hang the majority of the vehicle’s weight on the nose of the car which is bad for accelerating. And then there’s the issue with demanding that the front wheels both turn and apply power. Cars like the i30N, Civic Type R, and other hot hatches have done wonders to mitigate those effects, but at the end of the day, getting out of a FWD car and into a RWD car is always a night and day difference.
@@Soh90 " However FWD cars are inherently flawed. " - Not really. Depending on the conditions and tracks FWD cars can have advantages over RWD cars. Nissan for an example even tried a Le Mans FWD car (which sadly failed due to numerous technical issues and caused Nissan to retreat from the LMP1 class). The biggest advantage is the "point and shoot" characteristics of FWD, which can allow the driver to use more aggressive driving techniques and/or drive more consistently.
Fun fact: with RC cars there once was a FWD buggy platform, which was rediculed back then, but when the first people used them for racing they won easily against the RWD ones. The problem got so bad they had to put the FWD buggies into the AWD class.
Make more of these videos. They are excellent in teaching people what happens and why it happens. Makes everybody a better driver.
I am so glad to hear that. :-) It's my first video and I didn't know if this content and style would be in demand.
Yeah, great video mate. Watched it from England, United Kingdom. 👍
Another key thing to consider is smooth inputs. Whether its, throttle, brake, or steering angle.. smooth inputs won't upset the car nearly as much as quick and heavy inputs.
That’s in the video mate
This video should be MANDATORY viewing for every Mustang driver out there. It seems the majority of them are not familiar with any of these concepts! haha
My old E36 328i manual with no traction control taught me a lot of this stuff about 20 years ago. Fun car. Kinda dangerous, but fun.
those things are safer than alot of newer cars thats for sure
Are you recommending an AI generated garbage video as a safety guide?
Maybe you need to drive more cars then…some are harder to do certain things than other. You’re pretty much assuming you could whip the old mustangs like your Beamer…you think you’re different
@@notlohhcaz No thats not what I was saying. I wasn't making a direct comparison between the cars, or saying that I was inherently better.
Just noting the very obvious lack of skill so many Mustang drivers seem to display in attempting to handle their cars.
Admittedly the same could be said of some BMW drivers too, especially more recently. But there must be a reason Mustung drivers are the butt of so many jokes.
@@soundseeker63 I got you but to answer your last sentence. It’s the car…combined with drivers that don’t have the skill. So both. The way it’s been explained to me is that the older models with live axle tend to be easier to whip out but recovering can be very hard for somebody without lots of practice. I wasn’t much making a car comparison, I was just saying that could be you with your current skill level if you hopped in one even if you could whip your BMW. I just wouldn’t be cocky is all
Growing up driving an F150 with the gear shift on the steering column, it was a LOT of fun to downshift during a corner on a dirt road to snap the pickup around and then hit the gas once you got it settled. Just had to make sure there wasn’t a fence nearby until you learned how to do it. Untangling a pickup truck from a fence is a pain and dads really don’t like scratches on their trucks.
Whilst I already knew all of these concepts, I only knew as far as "Don't do [this] but do [that] instead, or you're going to have a very bad day." The grip points system really gave me a much deeper understanding of why you lose control. Thanks, this really helped.
I would like to add 2 important "safety" point for public road spirited driving:
1. Only drive up to 90% of your ability. Most people overestimate their driving ability, especially in high HP cars.
2. Let faster drivers pass you. This is especially important when you are in a older car that have no ABS and Airbag.
I always had people in SUV and Pickup truck trying to chase me on the hill. One time, a Landcruiser almost spun out behind me when I was on a twisty downhill in my ND MX5, in the end I let him passed for his own safety. I could had easily out run him but it wasn't worth it. I was there to have fun, not tragedy.
Now I have an FC RX7, I don't care if a semi truck wants to overtake me on the hill. This car is too precious to me. 😂
Stay in the Jinba Ittai zone. Car & driver, together as one. 👌😌
12:51 here’s a tip. It’s spelled BRAKING.
13:51 it’s a Flux CAPACITOR.
@@raftonpounder6696grip points …. This whole video is some manufactured BS.
This is some of the most important rules I try to teach my friends when we go for racing together, and they keep sliding their bmws and then blaming their cars, this video is perfect !!!!
Trail brake can be usefull (but dangerous) on agressive sports driving to be faster.
You can downshift while cornering if revmatching perfectly and fast, with a car you know well (that is without rear diff weirdness). PDK owners probably do it all the time, and conventional TC autos without you telling (not the video point I know). Non-double clutch robotized might upset balance.
Pressing the clutch gets all tires rotating at contact speed, which might help regain traction if handled gently (in ice works great).
4WD allows you to escape most the limitations...
" Trail brake can be usefull (but dangerous) on agressive sports driving to be faster." You can be dangerous too after 10 pints of vodka. 😅
My best advice is practice all this stuff on autocross days they're relatively affordable, and they're in parking lots that are normally local to you.
In the worst case scenario you hit some of the cones and suffer a little bit of embarrassment however you get to drive your car home.
Track driving is One step above this, more expensive (time prep and cost) and is relatively safe. However practicing this stuff on a b road or canyon you are asking if not begging for something bad to happen.
It may not even be your fault people Cross Lanes all the time, and all it takes is for them to clip you or for you to panic and you are in a really bad situation.
There people in your life that would be devastated if something happened to you. If you don't feel like you have people like this in your life. Know that some random guy on the internet, cares about you 😁
Stay safe ❤
And those deer tend to be out… or areas where they put the cows out… Cow vs car is pretty ugly!!
I always drive the same section 2x after some recon, but never > 80-85%
@@07wrxtr1 do you think hitting a a cow and a dear is bad. Wait till you see car versus moose... Yikes 😬
I damaged my first car by hitting a deer, it ran out from the side and the road was wet, I kinda just froze and braked gently and hit it going about 20MPH. because I didn't want to lock up the brakes and slide nor did I want to swerve because the road was built on the side of a mountain... Smashed my headlight surround a bit on it's rear end and it just ran off seemingly unharmed... Spoiled a 1980 model car that was in real nice condition at it's age. I was pretty upset... There was deer poo sprayed all up my bonnet too, it literally crapped itself lol.
@@NickGreiner1988 that gives a whole new meaning to scaring the s*** out of somebody 🤣
But I'm glad you're okay, cars are replaceable you're not ❤️
Lift off oversteer is not something to be avoided, it's a tool in your tool box. Its very useful for pointing the car at the apex of the corner.
Based on the simplistic, beginner nature of the video presentation...it is something to be avoided for the target audience, until they get some slow practice in a safe place. Even beginner track enthusiast get taught to brake in a straight line prior to turn in, at least until they start to get the hang of things and the feel of their car. Almost all of us have been off into the grass backwards as we started learning to trail brake.
Getting good at it means learning how to smoothly implement it at the right time, for just the right amount of time, getting just the right amount of rotation in a smooth and controlled fashion to affect a small correction as necessary. You SHOULD be pointing the car at he apex of the corner 95% accurately without it anyway, with the real goal of the trail braking simply to allow braking later, with the ability to use it for small corrections when required being secondary.
Unless you're very experienced and driving on a circuit it's better to avoid it
@@xtnuser5338 If your not using every tool you have to position your car, someone else who is will be passing you. Not much of a problem on your daily commute, but at any kind of competitive event the point is to be faster than the other guy. You can't leave anything on the table if you want to win.
@@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus That's correct, but the target audience of this video is not at the level of trying to win competitive events.
..especially in a FWD. Many novices think FWD cars can't oversteer. TTO is *the* way to get a FWD to rotate into corner entry in performance driving.
As an advanced trained driver, I wouldn't recommend heel and toe on the road. Rev matching is a good start, but mastering double de-clutching is the best method to practice and will protect your clutch and gearbox at the same time.
As a regular driver, I recommend learning heel and toe in a slow car, possibly fwd or awd.
I would recommend double clutching for modern vehicles
I don't understand the point of double clutching. I rev-match, but that's about it...never double clutched.
p.s, my car is an 80s car 🤷
@@Aleiza_49 Double clutching is essentially rev matching but saves wear on your clutch and gearbox. You can do it all day long on your road car without messing up the syncros in the box. It's actually smother than a simple rev match as well, as you're correctly aligning the whole transmission to the engine.
Just stop. Double clutching is a relict of the past.@@Niko-xz5lk
Having owned way more RWD cars than I have FWD, I've always found RWD intuitive. FWD I struggle with their lack of adjustability on circuit but they're definitely not slow when driven well
They absolutely are not slow when driven wheel, but against a RWD car they always will be.
Easiest and most accurate way to test this PRINCIPLE out is in driving simulator that has great driving physics, like GT7 and then using a 4WD car that allows you to adjust the Torque distribution of the drivetrain as you want.
Send the power all the way to the front axle, and you will have understeer pretty much anywhere, having higher lap times than sending it all the way to the rear axle.
In fact, depending on the car, they can actually go faster on a circuit with power all the way to the rear vs a 60/40 4WD split.
@@pedinhuh16 "They absolutely are not slow when driven wheel, but against a RWD car they always will be." - That depends on a car. TCR cars with ~340 HP have similar laptimes to GT4 cars that are more powerful (often 400+ HP).
Your example of changing the front/rear torque distribution in a 4WD is interesting but it doesn't account that RWD and FWD cars are built and set up differently in order to better utilize the strengths of their drivetrain and better compensate for their drawbacks.
Great quality for a first video; congrats! I pretty knew all this already since I've been driving for 32 years, but instructional videos like this one are a must see for many (not so good) drivers out there. I subscribed to encourage you to release more great content like this!
Yes, you're right about the video's target group. Thank you for your words, even though you already knew everything :-)
liftoffs in rwd is when rear tires experience engine braking, it is more like pulling the hand brakes for a moment.
liftoff happens to fwd as well, it is when front tires regain grip again suddenly with a weight shift to the front that makes the rear a bit lighter and more grip at front. this one is easy to overcome, just floor it, don't counter steer too much and you will be fine.
No abs no traction control just skill an balls
1985 Toyota Corolla sounds like a good vehicle for you.
@@completefemboyr.n.g1308 I'll be happy with my m50b28 swapped E30 once its built tbh mate 👌
Well thats just how driving was, until about 25-30 years ago. You learned these principles pretty quickly in old RWD cars with power, because you HAD TO! haha
@@rs5001988 If it fits, I think m54b30 would be a better fit :)
Rwd is just better. no abs no traction control no problem. Don't like finicky fwd steering their like a punishment to drive.
i don't even own a car, and i won't for years. but that knowledge will help me pass the drivers license easily. at least i hope so. if i don't forget it. . . That's why i watch these vids daily! make more because everything you say is easy to understand, the video is well edited making it easier to watch. You rock dude!
You will not need this for the driving test. That would be a dream scenario if they included stuff like this! I am glad you are already taking an interest. Be safe and be smart.
Yeahh to the creator. this is a really really really well explained video! Beautiful really.
And to you - Remember to drive gently and not make sudden jerky movements and obviously make sure you know and carry out all the laws and regulations and you should ace it :)
I learned all of this by just driving in the snow. It becomes fun when you learn how the car reacts to certain inputs during certain conditions.
Great video. I have had a few snap oversteers during autocross events, with full 360 degree spins in the blink of an eye. The car is a 2004 Porsche Boxster S on Hoosier A7 near slicks. Situation is driving right at the limit, trying to delay hard braking a bit too late into a hard corner, discovering I should have hit the brakes a bit earlier. So, when I lift off the gas suddenly to get on the brakes, I’ve demanded too much of the rear tire grip. The things I’ve adjusted are loosening the rear stabilizer bar a bit, going one size wider on the rear tires, and trying to overcome the fear I won’t make the corner so I can trust the tires, suspension and car balance and make it around. If I don’t, I only suffer a few cone hits and don’t score on that lap. Of course, next few laps I’ll hit the brakes a little earlier on that same corner so I can settle the car before the maximum cornering force is demanded of the tires. In this car for autocross, the entire course can be run in 2nd gear with no clutch demands.
On a track, at higher speed, I drive a GT4 with autoblip, which mitigates part of the challenge here, as downshifts are rev-matched by the ECU. I tend to do more of my high speed braking before hard turn in so that the apex and corner exit are more steady on the grip challenges. With a little bit of trailbraking, to assist the rotation, these higher speed corners in the GT4 feel great from the driver’s seat. That said, my instructors with Porsche mid-engine experience tell me it’s only a matter of time before I experience a snap oversteer event from driving at the limit - that I should always have that possibility in mind approaching every corner.
Good video. Raced and Rallied for a number of years when i was younger. Always do your braking in a straight line and power through and out of the corner.
I believe the downshift in corners one is actually used to initiate oversteer for drifting and rally sometimes, its called shift lock. If i remember correctly, Keiichi Tsuchiya used this technique
Great review. I already knew this, but it’s always good to refresh your knowledge. While watching this video I kept thinking about how none of this is taught in driving school in the US, at least as I recall. These are considered _advanced driving techniques,_ but really every driver should know these points because many of us will unexpectedly encounter them during normal driving.
As for traction control, I think I picked up this concept from motorcycle training, but it applies to cars too. _You can either brake or steer, pick one._ Tires aren’t very good at doing both at the same time. Brake before a turn/curve, steer through it, and accelerate out of it. Techniques like trail braking should be reserved for race tracks because they leave little room for unexpected hazards on the roadway.
Gotta say i had a blast driving back my NC MX5 from Italy to France on small roads, with the trunk loaded of heavy things, worn out summer tire and going on some snowy mountain roads... And it reflect perfectly what you said in the video about all those possible cause for the rear to spin out
Thanks for sharing your experience! I hope you arrived safely anyway
@@SorinQuill made it Home safely and with a lot more of experiences and memories... And the car is still in 1 piece🤣
A lot of high speed / high RPM corner stuff involves doing unorthodox things like left foot braking while keeping the right foot on the gas, but how hard or soft depends on whether you're going uphill or downhill.
Basically in an RWD car, always let the steering wheel to telegram its wilingness to unwind on its own when accelerating or lifting.
It will 'talk' to you after some time and will tell you if it was too much steering or throttle.
But one can always expect that when in a turn, loss of traction (for one reason or another) will most likely induce oversteering.
One exception is when you have an LSD that was set up to lock under coast. That might give you understeer when lifting in a corner.
Roll throttle, roll steering wheel, roll brakes. Always roll on and off when possible. Be light and gentle with your inputs. In a straight line you can sap off the clutch and gas all you want, but always roll on gas and steering no matter what.
With Front wheel drive I tend to back off my throttle on entry to corners and seem to have better overall control of the car, it seems to stay more stable (ie. flat) and the back end just flows around beautifully.
Errr. lifting off will cause instability you are totally wrong!
I grew up in rainy Washington state, used my car to get me to school, work, snowboarding, mountain biking, and hunting. My 1st car was an 6 speed, LS powered Catfish, I mean Camaro, then I went through 2 regular cab short box, manual transmission, 350 Vortec 5700 then 5.3 LS, pickup trucks. Then I had a BMW E36 3 series in Germany, a 3.6 stick shift 2 door JK rubicon. Another 5.3 RCSB 5speed pickup, 5 spd 4.0 Ranger FX4 level II, my 1st automatic a VQ powered 2001 Nissan Pathfinder, Canyon Duramax, and currently a 6 speed manual Xterra proX4. The only time i've ever slid off a road was during a snowstorm in a front wheel drive car. You can really feel the difference in rear wheel grip and how the vehicle rolls during the start of the turn. I thought not being able to turn the car using the gas pedal was a giant handycap until I figured out you can drift FWD cars by using left foot braking.
I was taught to get the car settled in a straight line and then leave the brakes alone and balance it on the throttle to carry as much speed as possible . I was always spinning my tuned Mini Cooper. Always my fault, but the one time my Spitfire swapped ends I was a passenger.
coz mini coopers are fwds that's why you balance it with the throttle
Another factor that can increase oversteer likelyhood is bad alignment.
Thank you for aiding in making roads safer and more enjoyable
Best video I have seen. Finally understand how rear drive car handle works.
I have a 71 f100 with a mild built 390fe, t19 manual and a full spool in the rear. Power sliding is how I get it around turns, to keep from from snaping another axle and gives max control for the turn. This means ploting out a turn before hand and set desired speed before hand, so if I need to slow down I will no lift down shift and then back back off the throttle some to engine brake before hand. This ensure I do not loose control of steering and is predictable where Im piching the rear if needed, and keeping a higher rpm means can back off the throttle more to slow down more if needed. It is also important to keep as much distance from objects as possible, so if there ends up being more steer than desired I dont have to rush a correction. Say the rear wanted to pich more because it hit a wet spot, I will back off the trottol first, wait a second or two before corecting the steering, and then get back in the throttol if needed. I know how to and have had to dirve it before, in snow and ice conditions with no traction drifting the hole way to the destination. In those condition, slow and stead is the best path to take so that control is maintained. So basically I do not use the brakes much unless wanting to come to a full stop, and will down shift through each gear with no trottol till Im back in 1st or 2nd before braking. Also is good to know the engagement point of the clutch, since is as far as the clutch needs bliped to get it in a gear and can leave a gear with out touching the clutch. As for steering, if rear is pitching one way the steering gose the other way. So if I want to get the rear to pitch in a desired direction, I steer out slightly from the turn, then I will blip the trottole to get the rear loose as Im lightly steering into the turn, then wiped the wheel the other direction and then slowly recenter till I have control of the slide.
We should also be aware that counter steering is a two step process in that you must correct after the counter steer to bring the car back under control.
Remember: Smooth is fast
For the braking and turn-in, the optimal is always to induce a neutral steer to the limit, but as mentioned in the video, it is highly skilled and car-dependable.
Extra weight at first can definitely throw you off, but after you get used to it, you can take corners faster and harder than without the extra weight. Gotta do your math though. For best results, just add enough weight to give your vehicle a 50/50 split. Or as close to 50/50 as possible. Make sure to account for your butt in the front seat.
More please this is great. I tried my heel and toe as i once did in my Audi of many years back. I nearly broke my nose on the windscreen. Modern cars are now equipped with maximum brake force and counteract that with abs. No fun anymore.
I honestly thought that lift off oversteer was just caused by tires that are spinning in a drift suddenly catching traction and accelerating the car in the direction the car is facing rather than the direction of momentum in the drift. Your explanation never occurred to me and I thought I'd already understand this one before hearing it. Thanks for educating me.
It can also be induced via a stiffer rear swaybar… for better or worse
Personally I like an aftermarket stiffer swaybar up front and OEM in the rear… it leads to more compliance on public roads
Thanks for the lesson, these are the reasons why I love my fwd car... I have less to worry about
3 decades as a heavy haulage driver, some very sound advice here, which they really ahould teach people as the learn to drive.
People should be taught to drive all three, RWD, FWD and 4WD.
The roads wouls be a much safer place to be.
One of the very few videos I watched more than once. And it's probably not the last time. Thanks!
Slow in, fast out may be an old racing concept, however, it does work to help keep control when cornering. So does simply not accelerating during a turn and letting your cars momentum carry you through it assuming your not entering the corner at too high of a speed. At least these are some things I've learned from racing myself.
Was that Ayrton senna heel toe'ing in moccasin loafers? 😂😂
Yep it's a classic clip
Best learing rwd was while i was driving Merc w124 , abs wasnt working due to something damaged , no esp eletronicts etc. Heavy winters or icy roads was hardcore and since i was a student back then , hadnt money for decent tires. School of letting of a gas on those roads even on straight line was so hard ! You literally had to be very gentle or your rear would be in front , same as shifting gears and letting off clutch pedal :) Fun times but looking back forward now .... i was kinda irresponsible XD to drive on bad tires. But even now when i drive w203 which is automatic , maybe it has some kind of traction control but sometimes u have to shift to neutral from drive to not spinout (on icy roads ofc) or even shift to neutral while breaking , beacouse front abs working , engine still pulling some power and u are not stopping in 10/20kmh range. And another good "tactic" while i was overtaking a car , guy decidec to overtake also , i was forced to hit side line/ grass line (around 100km/h) , so what u do is never letting of a gas and u will make it. I made it in winter +-0 celcius conditions , when u hit grass dont change your gas pedal , not letting off or not pushing even more , just go take the grass and u will be fine :) Cheers for rwd fans
VERY underrated account, incredibly detailed explaination.
Useful information, increasingly important as car technology increases.
My Volvo V60 Hybrid can be FWD, RWD or AWD changing modes seamlessly depending on the propulsion system selected as the petrol engine drives the front axle and the electric motor drives the rear or both ends can be driven simultaneously. Fortunately the chassis engineers did a fine job in maintaining a very neutral balance for all modes with a pretty good turn in, essential given the combined 400bhp the vehicle can offer.
Very good. We are so muscle memory trained to let off gas in most situations when road driving that you must really practice this carefully. We can’t really practice oversteer anywhere on the road. I wish we could, because lift off oversteer did cost me a car because muscle memory in FWD cars kicked in and I let off. I wish you could legally practice this in parking lots, but we are really limited to the few and far between tracks with skid pad training.
Yes, the limited opportunities for practicing frustrate me too. Habits can be trained on the simulator - the behavior and control (including ergonomics) of your own car can only be trained in real life.
@@SorinQuill yup I use my car in games like Gran turismo and a wheel/manual shifter setup all the time. I so badly want to take my actual car to an empty area and just go wild finding the limits and learn. Can't though because everywhere around me would have police there in a few minutes.
@@bjornironsides6474if you can drive to mexico, you can do it there
Things you left out. In heavy rain, your front tires climb on top of the water. This happens at about 55 Mph or 88 K/PH. Pick your entrance point into a corner. If you start a right hand corner on the right, the corner gets deeper. Brack and downshift before the corner. Modulate the gas pedal up and down. Another way of doing this is called heel and toe. This is where you have part of you foot on the gas pedal and part of you foot on the brake pedal.
Aarton Senna style
At last, someone who explains clearly the facts. Many thanks to you 👌
Years ago driving an automatic front wheel drive, at the speed limit early morning frosty road. Driving down a small hill then crested the other side lost the back end may be all four tyres. Was in the zone feathering the steering wheel to keep control. Did this for about 400 meters coming up to sharp bend. Split second decision to touch the throttle gained control and managed to drive the bend. There was car coming the other way on this quiet country side road and if I hadn’t touched that throttle I think it would have been a head on collision.
For all points, find a back road near home that has little to no traffic, and practice. Start out slow and listen to everything the road and your car tell you. Eventually you and your rig will become one.
If we must slow down (5:07) or brake (13:09) in the corner, we may use brakes without lift off throttle, then slow lift the throttle while speed decreasing.
All these things may be more necessary to use if the car has more neutral characteristics (i.e. when driving at a constant speed in a curve, both axles - front and rear - lose traction at similar speeds). In cars that understeer is strongly (manufacturers prefer to release such popular cars because they are easier to control), these techniques may not be so necessary. However, if someone sets their car to have oversteering characteristics (rather very few sports drivers try to do this), then they are already familiar with these problems and techniques and know how to use both.
Another important thing is the abruptness of the change in characteristics, how the car reacts when changing the balance. Despite the understeering characteristics, in the situations discussed in the film, oversteering may occur. This is influenced by many car parameters, including bumpsteer - changing the suspension settings (wheel alignment and camber) when it deflects.
This is also one reason you see so many pick up trucks with wrecked bumpers & grills. Slamming on the brakes to miss the idjut that pulled in front of you transfers a majority of the weight forward, lightening an already loose rear end. No traction plus rear brakes sketchy equals a bad day.😢
That's a really good explanation of trailing throttle oversteer, how to not be surprised by it, and how to deal with it.
The Drift kings "Drift bible" took my drifting to another level ,there is a blur between oversteer and understeer if you understand the physics
Great video! I would add the compromised vehicle stability during costing. Ideally you always want to have either your front or rear suspension/tires under load (accelerating or braking). You have to avoid coasting, especially on curved roads.
This is the most complicated explanation for rwd cornering and I’m here for it 😅
Also I only play games with cars I’ve never driven a real car 😅
Ok, a few fundamental points that most people, even yourself overlook as it's convenient to your explanation.
true over steer and under steer are characteristics of steering and suspension geometry,
You can get additional forces that can be altered by literally changing the parts but not altering the geometries, these are dynamic as you're explaining and tyres, both create the illussion of over steer and under steer, but they are not the same thing. In essence they are the same thing and it comes down to tyre deformation or slip angle in other words, the amount of grip a tyre can produce given the forces acting upon it. This is not steering and suspension geometry, but it may be effected by it.
The problem is when you meld the two phenomina to make it simple, it's actually ignoring the root cause and then the method of actually stopping it from happening, if you can! Some suspension designs like swing suspension you can't stop the over steer as it is inherrent part of the design. You can however lower the vehicle to stop the point of the issue really coming into play in real terms, but you can't actually stop it, less lessen it to an acceptable amount.
Once the grip is lost you can no longer calculate the geometry and tyre slip angles so therefore it must be a loss of traction (as you have little or none) and thus becomes a skid. Most people unfortunately still characterise this skid as part of the over steer or under steer phenominon, it clearly isn't once you actually understand the difference in the two. Under and over steer do not change because of speed, they are finites of angles, they are calculatable. They do change if the angles change so another force is added or subtracted etc, but once the arc of the suspension or steeering is to the permissible maximum it cannot alter further.
What you are explaing it tyre slip angles and the forces acting upon them, this is NOT over steer or under steer, although the real world visual aspects are the same initially, but then they change a lot! Here is a simple way to verify if it is tyre deformation or suspension and steering geometry; change the tyres or their pressure. If it acts in exactly the same way, it's over or under steer, if it doesn't, it's deformation of tyres, and thus grip rather than over or under steer. The simple thing to rethink is loss of traction is a skid, over/under steer is a characheristic od suspension and steering, not tyres. As soon as you start talking tyres, you're off the topic of over/understeer in reality.
One final point is you state "lift off oversteer" What that actually is is when a rear wheel lifts off the road, so presents 0 traction, so all the traction has to be gained to the outer wheel that is overwhelmed and the slip angle is exceeded and thus a skid, basically a driver error of some kind, usually going too fast into the corner and this is not due to suspension and steering characteristics per se, but one suspension is bottoming out (full extension) but as no tyre is in contact the angle of the wheel is a technical irrelevance at that point.Tyre dynamics are a whole subject in themselves. The term is obviously being corrupted to mean something different, what you should be calling it is a engine braking skid, as that is what you are actually describing. There is a massive difference in a wheel lifting and the throttle being removed. One thing to consider on this is if the rear wheel does actually lift, the traction will likely bee exceeded because of the torque being applied to the wheel, either positively or negartively in regards to rotation direction, so the inner lifted wheel will either spin faster if power on, or try to reverse the direction in the event of (full) throttle dropped off or somewhere in between the two depending on driver input. If there is still some traction then you'll get the tyre trying to do the same but with resistance and that is called a loss of traction and thus a skid.
As for not pinning you down to actual figures, actual figures are obtainable to both tyre deformation and steering and supension geometry factors, they are a mathermatical principal and thus able to be calculated. Skids, are generally not able to be calculated as too many variables, but as physics, it is still possible.
Food for thought: Why is the phrase "turn into the skid" not "turn into the over steer"? There is a reason for that, it's expained above.
Oh, blipping the trottle on gearchanges is to gring the input shaft and thus lay shaft up to the required sync speed so the gear can be changed faster, easier and less wear on the gearbox. Again you're stating a weight change by either pulling off the throtle or changing gear that doesn't happen, there is a stress change, ther is a torque change, there are a lot of changes like the rear suspension uncompresses as no drive forces on it, but that is not a weight change, Braking would induce a weight change or better described as an altering of the dynamic centre of gravity of the car AND altering the caracteristics of the suspension and steering via geometry - ohh, back to what under steer and over steer actually are. One thing to note here is the tyre deformation massively changes so you're taking away londetudial grip forces and reliant soley on transverse grip forces, the tyre cools, becomes harder wich in turn gives less traction to compound the loss of traction from the longdetudial grip forces.
Best way to learn good techniques with a rwd car is to buy a cheap dirt bike and go play in soft terrain with steep hills.
You’ll learn very quickly about throttle and brake control. (And of course clutch control if you want to drive a manual car).
Down shifting before a turn can unsettle the suspension. IOW rules like these are only a starting point because IRL things are way more complicated.
Friend and I have been racing on my rig, a in my breaktime I've seed this video and it helped me to drive at least slightly better, on a first try 🙂 thank you 🙂
Having the knowledge allows you to be mindful of different possibilities given different inputs. However only practice and experience will allow you to do stuff like this comfortablely and safely.
bro not even 50 likes the really cool shit always dont gets wat it deserves
Thank you for your appreciation!
Same thing for a motorcycle for number 2 in the safety course they tell you never to down shift while cornering as the power will cause the rear tire to slip and go into a lowside that can kill the biker.
Most of this tips also apply to all cars , fwd awd rwd whatever
Essentially, smooth is fast
Jerky sudden changes bad
However it is the most critical on rwd
I will suggest if you’re taking your foot off gas pedal immediately hit gently the brake and at the same time gear down and throttle the half way out of a corner
Excellent video! Thanks! Keep it going brother 🤜🤛
Weird how once you get a feel of a car's weight shifting. Even when you "intentionally" do these things. Instictively you know how to react and make the correct manuever
What you said, is also true with AWD and, part of it, even in FWD. I'd love to see more videos with you explaining other situations. 👍🇵🇱
Even in FWD you don't lift mid corner. Or you do, but you know what will happen (the car rotates).
Addition to the list at 10:40; Tire pressures.
Little high on fronts and little low on rears could help to carry oversteer point higher speeds. Thus the car tends to understeer instead, which is safer.
If you dont understand how a cars weight transfers and the effects it has you shouldnt even have a drivers license in my opinion. Drivers ed in the US is a joke.
Well, consider that anyone following the rules of the road will likely never encounter oversteer or understeer.
In northern states, we learn about controlling the car in slippery conditions, such as snow and ice. How to control throttle, braking, and steering to prevent bad outcomes. So, its not direct "counter steering to control a drift" training, but it translates to everything else. In states without snow or ice, bad weather conditions cause a mini apocalypse because no one was taught how to handle slippery conditions.
TLDR, states train drivers differently depending on where you live
There'd be a lot less cars on the road. About 99 % of drivers do not have the slightest clue about weight transfer.
@pfunkle born and raised in wisconsin. They didn't teach me any car control. Just because you follow the rules doesn't mean you'll never have to avoid someone else or an animal. Knowing how to control a car has saved me more than once. It should be mandatory in all 50 states.
If they taught it, it would be common. Every driver should spend time on a skid pad with a kick plate and a professional driving instructor. If we did this, it would save many lives each year because people would have the knowledge and training to maintain control in bad situations. It wouldn't be stop it entirely but It would reduce fatalities significantly.
When I taught driver ed in Georgia in the 90s you could get a license by fogging a mirror. I was shocked.
Good tips. Some of these apply to fwd cars as well
Braking in straight line is very important too.
I have recently bought a Toyota MR2 Spyder, and its practically impossible to make it oversteer. You have to combine aggressive driving, weight shift, very fast cornering and gas liftoff just to make it slightly oversteer. Or just floor it on the 2nd gear. But other than that, that car just grips the road like a F1 race car.
How much of the weight is in the rear half?
Great ... Now I got no excuse for crashing ... Thanks a lot Sorin Quill ! BTW... great video. Enjoyed your accurate insight and it helped . Thanks again !
I use a isuzu trooper 87 carb it's little tune on the carb and it use a/t tires I use downshift on sharp curves that must of regular cars will loose grip at 25 mph and I do it between 45 to 35 mph without risking upcoming traffic and I do it without 4x4 the trick is use the clutch entering the curve to change the weight distribution at the same time you steer earlier than the corner so the front goes first then at half curve you downshift but when you start lifting the clutch ruff you go full throttle all this at the same time your steering the direction you want to go because at high speed you lose traction just use it in your advantage. In front wheel cars, your front loses grip, let go gas and brakes just steer only play with throttle as needed when steering its not working at 100%. All my life has been how fast I can take curves using different cars and have been challenged many times with faster cars, but they can't keep up.
6:56 If You have 2500 RPM on 3rd gear when change to 2nd geat RPM will be about 3000 RPM in standard car
That depends if you have a 4 speed transmission 5 speed or 6 speed
If you feel the rear end break loss change up to a higher gear to kill the traction lose and re-establish to grip.
😂😂😂😂
I find that shifting up and accelerating then shifting down again also helps if you have the high rpm slide.
Well done and good to see AC put to educational use. This is a good explanation of the performance circle that is taught in just about all racing schools.
Very good video. I subscribed to wait and see if there will be more quality content like this, and not just one project and that's it. Now it's a matter of creating a process to ensure quality/speed production (searching, writing, editing...) , therefore good content
Congrats mate, lovely work
I cant tell you how many times I've noticed drivers on the Nurburgring not opening up the steering after the apex and then expecting to accelerate normally. Car starts to slide for a moment, they let off the gas and press the brakes. You probably know how this ends .
Let's get an AWD video! Super helpful
Project cars 2 indeed teached me all of these... i didn't know nothing what i was doing wrong so i talked to a friend and he said what i was doing wrong ... dayum nice tips to be honest XD
Got my cupra born the previous month.
50:50 204bhp & rwd.
Damn i have to learn a lot before winter...
Driving an old tweaked vw bug can teach you a thing or two on how to drive it safely, once you get the hang of it, all the correcting or corrections while driving becomes normal to you
Good tips, and good video. Thanks for posting.
Never lift :D, and older 911s were especially known for this feature. Engine behind rear axel and lifting off during corner was a clear suicide :D
underrated chanel
Living in snow belt is a good way to refine your driving skills... I live in Michigan.
Had a bit of a close call trying my brother's nb miata on some nice Austrian roads. One curve turns out to be tighter than it looked so I am both coming in hot and bam, rear slides out
Counter steer worked nicely, even though I got some snap oversteer going the other way
Only part that left the road was the rear left wheel for a few meters. just digging through some grass at enough of an angle to get grass and dirt stuck in between wheel and tyre. No damage to the car other than the wheel getting a tiny scuff, plus having to deflate the tyre to get the grass and dirt out
I definitely got lucky though as there was some oncoming traffic just a few hundred m further away, and I definitely used both lanes in that curve ☠️
I also plan to buy an mr 2 roadster later this year
Probably a number 3
when braking the weight and mass of the car remains the same but there is a torque around the front wheels that generates a force that lifts the rear so the normal to the surface is reduced thus friction force is lowered but the inertia of the rear remaining the same so it can generate the same force, there is higher chances of losing grip
We need more videos like this, good stuff !
i would say those mostly mistake really depend on the car design and set up and how you going to use those weight transfer, lift gas very denpend the suspension height setup, like setup the rear wheel low height to stable the brake, less weight transfer to the front. LSD and tyres grade would help how long to full trottle or half trottle the gas. FR FF MR, totally different.
but most people seem to be not going to learn and feel the momentum direction of your car, after you have understand the moentum direction of your car, then you will know how to use those sliding and run your car faster
Basically, drive your RWD ride like a motorcycle, with the same rules. I know I became a much better driver, just by feel - and especially of RWD cars after I became a biker as well. From observational skills and reflexes, to cornering and braking rules, how and when to downshift, etc. If you really want to rock out in your car, I suggest you also get at least one bike and learn to ride it well, including MSF.
Make 2 more videos like this w FWD and AWD. Very nice video btw!
To be honest, it doesnt matter what you're driving. Any wheight transfer or torque shift can cause you to lose traction.