Stop making excuses and downplaying yourself, Mark. We are never bored, we like this stuff! Maybe your analytics say otherwise, but a large segment of your audience comes here for a deep engineering perspective they cannot get literally anywhere else!
Personally I don't like it. We all know as a TH-camr you get preferential treatment and you can pick a car whenever you want and switch it out and always be comfortable. 99% of people can't even afford a Honda fit from 10 years ago. Let alone this Civic. It's already unobtainium for the maturity of people out there and when someone's out here telling us how awesome it is to own it. It's not that we are spiteful and don't want someone to have it good but rather them trying to convince us that this is something special. It's not at the end of the day. This isn't what people wanted.
10-15 years from now when this car is no longer around... This video will be. There will be that 2nd or 3rd owner who wants to know why the car is so special. This video will keep them hooked and they will love every minute. Thanks for preserving Hondas history with this effort. The enthusiasts appreciate the effort.
15 years from now people might be saying: "I tried the 2024 Civic Type-R but I couldn't handle its utter lack of assists long-term." Meanwhile people who find it awful and prefer a car from 2000 are probably already dead. The old cars might even have gotten destroyed by ecofascists who are calling them rolling climate crimes.
Given that Toyota has taken up the baton and they're not holding back, I suspect they've yet to make the ultimate ICE sport car that'll defy electrification. The bulky Type-R will be a gas guzzler in comparison... Type-R is Honda's ego trip and a pretend car for the masses. Bottom feeder TH-cam channel have this car as their main.
Mark we love this sh*t lol. Vids like these are why we subscribe and I’m sure play a part in why you’ve gotten unprecedented access to the manufacturing process. This coulda been twice as long I’m sure 98% of us would still watch. Cliche I know but “keep it up and don’t change”.
Totally. Most car journalists wouldn't care enough or be able to interpret the language of the engineers and designers. The few that do, deserve the chance to tell these stories.
You summed up my thoughts exactly. He is simply the best car technical reviewer in the world. On a cheeky note I have an idea for merch. Coffee mug with the writing "I survived the Savagegeese technical presentation".
I am an ITS owner, Honda dude, and CTR appreciator. 1. Thanks for all the technical info as it helps me to understand my car better. 2. You are 100% correct in my opinion, about Honda not bringing back the old NSX and S2000, the reasons for doing so, and that for people who want that experience, to buy those cars now. (15 year S2000 owner, 8 year NSX owner here.) 3. CTR and ITS are an excellent one-car solution for the enthusiast with a family….if they are willing to pay the price and ADM. ITS is easier to find at MSRP at the moment. Thank you again!
Well said! I have an s2k that I track and bought an ITS a couple of months ago as my daily....and I have a wife and 2 kids, and one is still in a car seat. I was cross shopping the CTR and ITS, and went with an Apex Blue ITS because I was able to snag one at MSRP after months of shopping all around. Honestly, if I sell the s2k, the ITS is so good that it could easily be a capable hpde car and an ideal daily. It doesn't even matter that it's a fwd family hatch!
@hondaman8648 I don't care as much about resale as I'm actually driving it and didnt pay a markup....all transmissions come from Japan, all k20c engines are built here in Ohio. They are essentially mechanically identical, and turn identical lap times down to the 100th of a second. I'm 35, so I appreciate the daily creature comforts of the ITS. Also, production numbers are just about the same as well.
We are never bored. The videos are never too technical or too long. They are never too in-depth or long winded. Let it all rip with these videos. If you're feeling self-conscious, just start making 5 minute drag race videos. Do not ease up on the in-depth videos. Thank you!
Just letting you know, you never bore us with technical information. The stuff you provide you can't get elsewhere. It's what makes this channel stand out. It such a nice listen too, even on a commute. So thank you very much!
2nd gen BRZ owner here. i loved your GR86 long term series and i know i’m gonna love this. as a huge car nerd and gearhead, y’all’s channel drops knowledge we can’t get anywhere else. much love.
When I drove the fk8 type r I was astounded by the ride quality in comfort mode, the practicality of the hatchback, the precision of the 6 speed manual and the piece de resistance was the cornering grip performance and lack of understeer. I think the fl5 looks better inside and out but the fk8 is finally coming down on the used car market and it may find a place next to my nb1 Miata in the garage.
I was fortunate enough to drive an FK8 CTR at the Nürburgring. I was overall not impressed. Cooling issues, shifter seemed fragile. Great chassis feel but overall experience was a letdown. I spoke with the mechanics at the business I rented it from and they confirmed their CTRs had been really problematic. For street use only, great car, but I’d avoid if you plan any track work. I followed those laps with a few in a Megáne RS and a Hyundai i30N, and found both to be more balanced handling (better rotation) and more fun/less fragile feeling.
@@tammerfarid Intresting experience and not at all what I have seen here in the States. I have seen many CTR’s at track days and they are not the ones pulled over for cooling issues. Typically it has been very reliable but upgrading the cooling for a track car is very important.
It's sad because they keep getting better, that comes with more cost. Back in the day we would buy the basic Honda civic and build it ourselves, now everyone wants to buy an out of the box super awesome car and pay low entry price.
As a fan of Honda, I really appreciate Mark's coverage of his S2000 and now CTR. I watched his S2000 video numerous times before finally purchasing one a few years ago, and still go back to it every now and then to learn more about it. I would love to buy a CTR someday, but without dealer mark up which might mean never. But at least I have Mark's videos and hopefully learned something.
As a Rallye Red FL5 owner in the UK it's always good to hear educated opinions from people who actually take the time to know and understand. It's really difficult to silence the neigh-sayers and there are a lot of them. And this video is a good place to point them. Educational and a genuinely great watch.
The engineering of the Type R is fascinating. So much more subtle than you’d think yet very purposeful. Like it really is taking a normal car and making it as much a race car as you can.
As much race car as u can while still being fun and streetable. It could be more race car but no one would want that it would ruin the car. Most race cars arent as fun to drive as street cars n there brutal.
Another reason we long for the sporty four cylinder manuals of the 80's, 90's, and 2000's... "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow." I don't know who came up with that, an owner of a fast car or a slow car, but they were on to something. I love the time I spend driving my '87 CRX Si.
I agree. I have a 2002 WRX that I bought new. Through the years I made it faster and did some handling mods. In 2012 I finally blew the motor after 172,000 miles. It has sat and sat. In 2019 I bought a slow 2009 Forester X non turbo to daily while I finally fixed my WRX. Found out STi everything fits on the Forester. It has full aftermarket suspension and handles better than the WRX ever did. I have done nothing to the motor. 170hp stock. It is so much fun when people with much more expensive cars can't keep up in the corners. The WRX has a table full of parts to go on but yet it still sits.
@@lordraiden5398 An old WRX sounds like a hoot to drive, though apparently the new one isn't bad either, especially since the FA24F engine holds up to mods quite well - a huge plus considering the enormous catalog of aftermarket WRX parts. The plastic cladding may look weird, but at least you can take it on a dirt road, drive like the late Colin McRae, and not worry about the wheel arches rusting.
Let me know how an underpowered car works for you on a medium sized track. These reviews play into small tracks that cater to small cars and tight corners to make it look like it's a competitive car. You need a decent amount of power and a 50k, 300 horsepower car will have you being passed by just about everything except for a Miata or BRZ That is unless you fall for the marketing where they place the car on the smallest of tracks that don't really amount to anything other than playing into deception and marketing.
Glad to hear Mark mention MR2. The driving experience I had with my new 1988 MR2 Supercharged has never been duplicated. 145hp felt fast. RWD, plenty of grip, a wonderful green house with the T-tops...that car was memorable.
Totally agree! I just restored my 88 SC MR2 recently, full rebuilt and built later spec motor, LSD 5 speed from a low mileage Japanese spec car. Full TRD headers, motor mounts, recaros the whole 9 yards. Ive yet to find a sports car that competes with the sheer joy it can put on your face at any speed.
This video is amazing. Thank you guys for what you do. I waffled so much on ordering a 22 SI and you guys are what finally convinced me to do it. It’s been an amazing car. I know everyone seems to want to have their own hot take, but I love what Honda has managed to do in this era of soulless cars.
Which is what…? They also made a soulless Zombie just like everyone else 😆 We only like it cause it has a Honda TYPE-R badge on it. Any manufacturer that has stooped down to using fake engine sounds coming from the speakers is DEAD TO ME. 😢
@I_know_what_im_talking_about poor little dude. You're too slow to understand how important good handling, a solid drivetrain and daily drivability is huh?
@@fhowland I always wanted a fun Civic in my teens and 20s and never could afford one. It’s got all the fun factor of those early 2000s ricers my rich friends had. I had a couple Corollas over the years and no matter how sporty you try to outfit a Corolla, they always feel like an econo car IMO. I think the SI has a perfect balance of usability and fun. And I can’t answer versus the Type R because they’re virtually unobtainium. I’ve honestly not seen a current gen type R in person yet.
Man, I've been looking for a video and channel like this! A video where engineering aspects are explained in detail and you can get the passion from the voice. Keep up the work!
Haven’t commented in a while but the long form videos are incredible especially when you and the team talk about where the car market is today in the past or present during your car rides. You all still share your honest opinion without trying to appease the car industry executives or companies and thats what makes the video worth watching in my opinion.
If I'm being honest, I'm not even necessarily in the market for a type-r but I still found this video very thoughtful and insightful. Thank you for sharing the technical information as well as your own personal insight and philosophy. It does have the feeling of an end of an era and what a way to go out.
Looking forward to getting a FL5. You hit the nail on the head - I have dedicated sports cars (S2000, E46 M3) but they have become more point A to point A type cars for a multitude of reasons and I don't drive them much. I was stuck trying to figure out what daily to get to replace my BRZ (not really looking to keep these past 50k miles and the shifter/clutch/throttle tuning is terrible which is what you engage with on a daily basis). I was between a FL5 and a Miata (yes, I know) but ended up finding a FL5 "allocation" at near MSRP. It's just hard to find a car that still has driver engagement with normal driving. None of the Germans do it, my MK5 Supra was deadass boring to drive unless you were going 10-11/10. I hope your channel helps the manufacturers understand we (enthusiasts) are still out here looking for cars with driving engagement. The FL5, Miata, and BRZ all engage the driver in different ways with the FL5 obviously being the most practical. Glad Honda has kept what makes their cars so engaging to drive (fantastic inputs, engine character, driver engagement) while still offering great practicality & reliability. Hoping I like it for the long term.
Mark & Jack are simply THE BEST car reviewers. Detailed, technical, honest, and I enjoy their snarky humor. (And I’m an old dude.) Savagegeese is my go-to source for auto reviews, and I rate them better than Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Consumer Reports, and all the other TH-cam channels. And I watch/read most of them.
It's really impressive that they designed the turbo to spool up so quickly while also not choking the hell out of the engine at higher RPM. My 1.5t FK7 clearly gets choked out above 4.7k rpm and it makes it barely worth it to rev much past that.
I owned a 2018 sport hatchback before I bought my 2021 Type R. I honestly believe anyone who owns a Type R, should’ve owned a Sport first. The Sport is a fantastic car, great handling and excellent fuel economy. It’s a blast to drive. I enjoyed every mile for three years. Then I drove my new R in September 2021. Holy shit! It is an absolute beast. I was almost shaking from the excitement of everything it does. The sport and R look very much alike, and when I sat in the R for the first time, everything looked and felt familiar. That is, until you push the start button. It’s insane! But I will say this: I preferred the steering wheel in my sport, over the R. The sport’s is a little bit thicker, and just feels better. I get a lot of waves from people in their Sport model, and I always wave back. They own a sweet car too!
Yep, the guys that tried to tune/build the 1.5t have bascially said it's an eco engine first. The airflow through the head and manifolds are awful and the rod bolts and rods themselves are very weak. Apparently the CR-V's and Accords are starting to blow hesdgaskets and who knows if the oil dilution issues are really solved. It's an amazing engine for being a daily and for some light fun but it's definitely not a performance engine.
They do that with VTEC. Normal cams for higher pressure at low rpm because it opens less, aggressive cam when it reaches higher rpm and needs flow. It only has it on the exhaust.
Mark vs. Casey was awesome to watch, pause, compare, straight up great driving Mark! This video explains why I have a 1991 CRX Si and a 2000 Civic Si in my garage right now. I want to feel something. Keep up the great work gentlemen!
when I needed to buy, dealer markup here in MD was $10-$15k above MSRP no matter who I called. Based on your review and my own test drive, I happily "settled" for and Si and, for what it is, it's a masterpiece. Sure I'd rather have an R but I cannot stomach the extreme mark ups.
@@nathanielsmith1892 a 2023 stickered at $29k. I paid $2k over, which was the lowest add on I could find. And there were only two in my area at the time, the other one was 2 hours away and $5500 over.
even though your analytics may say otherwise, the people i.e me who watch videos like this absolutely love them. no other channel does this type of content with the passion and sincerity like you and jack. keep it up
Mark, videos like this are why I have been subscribed and religiously watched you guys for years. Please never change and keep delivering videos like this that take a deep dive into the engineering and philosophy of these cars. I enjoy every minute of these longer videos and you see that many of the rest of this comment section does too.
Around the years 2000, the Civic type R was a dream car for young drivers, but nowadays the only true exciting affordable sports car is named : ND3 MX-5 Miata. It is your LAST CHANCE ! Don't miss it before they soon all become hybrids.
I drove my friends Type R and I am not afraid to say today that I would of traded my 2023 M3 6MT for it, of course at the time with the M3 being new I had to justify but it is what it is, now that I ditched the M3 for a CT4V Blackwing I am digging passionate cars like the type R. And Mark, please keep doing what you do, you have no idea how much some of us appreciate your reviews !
I'm proud of my NorCal Elk Grovians. The FL5s are sitting on the lot since the summer. Honda/Acura still not budging on the markups yet. One of them got parked by sprinklers, after warterspots you can see where the detailer swirled up the paint with wool pad.
Its a Joke! EG Honda wants close to 70k! And Future Honda is asking 75k! got them down to 56k! but no way will pay over sticker. told them im all in at msrp.
Great video. I made the point about not being able to hear your own 4 cylinder while sharing the track with the V8s in the comments here a few months ago, so glad to hear that same point made here. Of course the actual solution is to let the driver turn it on or off. All of these "final" non-electrified cars are going to dominate trackdays for decades. We look at them as compromises today, but in 20 years we'll realize this was the pinnacle of the 4-cylinder turbo, hot hatch, etc.
The final thoughts were outstanding to sum up your feelings and philosophy about the Type R. The rest of the video was not boring at all. Thanks for helping me defeat the tryptophan coma.
Mark, you nailed it at the end. I could have purchased a new S2000 but didn't and always regretted it. I test drove a nice used S2000 before buying the FL5 Civic R and for some reason was underwhelmed. It's like a rock star who died in their prime ... they were the best ever! So yes it was a mechanical marvel but think the FL5 has a bit of that old school mechanical feel in just daily driving... somehow it's still there if you turn off all the safety stuff. Being a much more rounded package and finding one at MSRP made it a no brainer. Excellent review and commentary... the best I've seen on this car, thanks a lot!
Fantastic video and sums things up nicely! I am a lucky owner of a 2000 DC2R which I bought second hand as my first real car back in 2005. It has been with me from my bachelor days to now where I have two young kids under 7. I was doing drop off's and school runs in the DC2R but let's be honest - it's not the safest car by any standards! So this year, with the Wife's blessing, we picked up a CW FL5 (DC2R in garage now). It does it all... Grocery run, school run, sprints, luggage/box duties... But most of all it feels great to drive at any speed as mentioned in your video. Since owning, I find any excuse to drive it to feel the specialness it brings. ♥ It. Driving the FL5 then hopping into the DC2R... There are a lot of parallels and you can see the DNA in the FL5. It also makes the DC2R's lightness (and also safety gap) obvious!! I hope to keep both to pass on to my kids so they can enjoy this in years to come....
Thank you for your reviews. I have watched you guys for years. As a retired engineer, I appreciate your technical info. I purchased a new SGP Type-R this week. I do not have experience with owning performance cars, so for me this car feels “special”
@@singular9 Seems like you speak from experience. Getting shafted, I mean. Let people enjoy what they enjoy. There's enough shit to be mad about, and this ain't one of them.
Congratulations, I wish I could get one as a second car, I'm too worried about getting flat tires to have it as my only car. The FL5 and the Gulia are the only cars I would buy today. I own a Macan and can never own anything else. Suv wise. It's the perfect suv. Enjoy the type R, most people will only dream about it.
Your summary of new cars compared to old and the experience change is spot on. That’s why I bought a Rush SR1 for the track because it delivers on the feel. I love my M340i for a daily driver but you can’t have it all in a modern street legal car.
Currently own a 2003 s2000 and am contemplating a move to the type r. I value your insight since you own both. Keep up the great work mark and jack. Been following since the days with Scott 🍻
I bought a civic sedan in the touring trim and it's an amazing car for my every day use (even with my two car seats). I was lucky to get it somewhat close to msrp. The civic type r just seems unattainable for most of us due to the markups, despite it being a great great car. If it was a serious choice for me between the type r and elantra N at this point in my life id go with the elantra N due to not being a huge pain to get and being cheaper
Real review from a real owner of the car. Your detail information of mechanical engineering is almost as good as your dialogue regarding the role of this car and others in the market.
I traded my FK8 in for a 2SS 1LE (love it) but we got a FL5 in where I work (dealership) and I have to say, it has me THINKING!! what a car is all I can say, it's that much better than the FK8 which is crazy to say really.
Outstanding video, you really explain that this isn’t just a civic that was slapped with a “R” badge and more horsepower. It’s a very special car that was thought out and engineered from the ground up.
Thank you for the awesome deep dive - you guys deserve to have many more than 1 million subscribers! It's incredible the level of engineering that Honda put into this car. Looking forward to your future Honda videos including the NSX deep dive!
I'm in the casting industry for 15 years now, making flywheels, houses, intakes, etc. You really help me to understand how all of these parts relate to each other and why I have to deal with a new rev # on parts every 3 years or so. Thank you!
Great video and love the tech talk. The only thing missing in most of these videos is weighing the value against the actual average transaction price. At $45k I’m all in… at $55-58k, I spent just a little extra and got a CT4 Blackwing. That was a tough call as a Honda die-hard but the value just wasn’t there at the real world price point.
Phenomenal overview as usual Mark. Thank you for this! Nobody does it to this level. It’s so analytical, and precise with no BS. Undoubtedly its not a mass market review style. But like this FL5 it’s very special indeed.
Bought a '19 CTR w/ 30k miles back in April. Love it. Such an upgrade over the Si. Great DD. Babyseat in the back. Only complaint is you have to get used to the front bumper / lip height being a touch lower than a normal car and take approach angles accordingly because I hate scraping.
30:30 It's not the same price as the GR Corolla. A 23 GR Corolla with the PP is $7-8k less expensive. You bought a Circuit Edition which is mechanically identical to the $38k Core with PP.
I’m not sure why a lot of automotive channels missed this nuance. You would think that it would’ve been brought up as a lot of “enthusiast” channels always bring up “best bang for your buck” (or similar expression). Particularly for the GR Corolla, the core is the trim that a majority of people will buy and the trim Toyota will make the most of. Car channels made a similar error when reviewing the S209 STI. They gave the impression all STIs were $60k+ but really failed to point out that the S209 was an extremely limited model that was the pinnacle STI with a factory warranty. At the time, a regular STI was about $36k.
they take every opportunity they have to shit on the GRC. We know it is an inferior car to the CTR; but it is cheaper, awd, and it's Toyota's first attempt at making a fun car out of an economy platform in the modern era.
I agree, but it's the reality of the situation. In my opinion, I value the GRC more so than the Supra or 86 because the GRC was an in-house Toyota development. Performance-wise, I think they're pretty even. I think where the GRC loses is the creature-comforts, with most complaints at the hard interior plastics and the "overheating" of the rear clutch pack. I think we'll be stuck with hard plastic interior, but I'd imagine the "overheating" rear clutch pack would be addressed in future models if the GRC becomes a main-stay in Toyota's lineup. The problem with a first-gen product. Coincidentally, when the FK8 was released, there was overheating issues due high coolant and oil temps and the car essentially going into limp mode on track days.
First of all, FANTASTIC video! I’ve watched it several times because I’m on the fence about buying a FL5 vs GR Corolla vs Elantra N vs WRX TR - and you make it very clear just how special this car is. Not that I’m looking at it as an investment, but I fully believe that the Type R will hold its value WAY better than the others I’ve listed - especially once everything goes electrified (which is going to be SOON). I think you analysis of the car is spot on. I too had my doubts about a FWD car handling as good as all the hype dished out on it, but I had the privilege and outright pleasure to spend a lot of time in one that my friend owns this past weekend driving five hours to “The Tail of the Dragon” and ripping it through there several times - and it 100% lives up to the hype. It is ASTONISHINGLY good. WAY better than any FWD car has any right to be. It absolutely made a believer out of me… to the point that I’m thinking very seriously about buying one if I can find one for MSRP. Thanks again for the video. The information you provide in it is invaluable. ❤
Sound system is A+ in the 11th gen Civic and Accord. It's Bose, no highs no lows. I wanted a FL5 but the price point a year ago drove me to a purchase a used 10th Gen Accord 2.0t instead. Hopefully the price comes down to MSRP in the next few years, and I will go and nab a lightly used FL5.
@@Barbwire710 I would, after I had it inspected by a reputable mechanic. I haven't bough a brand new car in over 20 years. I usually buy Lease turn-ins due to their low miles and requirements to maintain them under the lease put on by the lease by the dealership.
I’ve got a manual first gen v6 Mazda6 that I cant sell for the life of me. It’s just so much more fun to drive than the newer cars like the civic Si. Shifter and clutch are very mechanical. Very little sound deadening which makes it a little noisy at highway speeds but you can hear the engine rev. And because it doesn’t have much low end torque you have to rev it out which is a blast. Hydraulic power steering. Double wishbone up front and multi-link rear. It is fwd and a little nose heavy but it’s a blast to drive around town at legal speeds.
I have a 2016 Mazda 3 (the car which brought me to Savagegeese because of their review) which will probably be pried from my cold dead fingers for exactly the reasons you cite. It's not that powerful (2.0L - 155 hp), it's kind of noisy on the highway (especially on coarse pavement texture), and it's running 205/60R16 tires, so mechanical grip is not face-bending. But it has a connectedness and cohesiveness that has disappeared from newer cars. It "sings" to me in a way other cars don't. As this review notes, that quality is rapidly disappearing from our automotive landscape as cars become bigger, heavier, and more technology-laden. We'll only be able to find it in niche vehicles (e.g. the ND2 Miata) going forward, and that's a shame.
I’ve owned this car for nearly one year after having an FK8 for six years. I drive them all year-round, daily. Some autocross and track time in both. The car has to family as well. And I live in Canada in an area that gets very cold and with a lot of snow. All of that is just to say that my experience matches Marks to almost 100%. His well delivered assessment is spot on, and I was thrilled to learn some engineering titbits that I’ve not been able to find anywhere else. Would love to see a video on the swapped suspension module, because the level of detail you include is what I’m looking for. Not just ’ it feels great.’ As always, awesome video thank you very much guys.
I put 8k miles on my FL5 before I sold it. I came from an FK8. I now own the GR Corolla (12k miles), Circuit like yours albeit Supersonic Red. I agree that the FL5 is a fantastic car in myriad ways. But, to me personally it lost something with how big it feels. My priority isn't track driving. I go twice a year: VIR, Barber, Road Atlanta. I autocross a ton. Most of all I love to drive backroads. To me the FL5 feels big compared to the FK8 the way the raptor eye STI feels to the older models. It's a subtle disparity in measurement, but in my opinion you relinquish the small car x-factor where you feel like you can find your line whilst staying in your lane on a backroad jaunt. I also think the FL5 loses to the FK8 in a few areas that are important to me. The FL5 shifter is better (though I still got second gear grinds occasionally). I honestly thought the steering feel was better in the FK8 (This sentiment was mirrored by Thomas on Throttle House). There was also the fact that the FK8 was faster in a straight line. That blew my mind. My work commute is 3/4's country roads, and then I hit a long sweeping onramp to the highway. The first time I pushed that onramp in my FL5 the car felt slower than my FK8. At the time I figured I'd gotten bad gas. Later my fears were confirmed by a few different reviewers. Why is the "everything better, significantly more expensive FL5" slower off the roll? I know I could have gotten a tune or modded it or whatever, but that makes no sense to me on a significantly more expensive car. It should have a similar tune to the Integra Type S. I also visit Tail of the Dragon quite often. I hawked down a Supra in the FL5 on that road. That was an amazing experience, but there were several times the tail whipped out and grazed the double yellows. To drive that car hard on the roads safely you can't turn off traction control completely--which means you're also eating through your rear pads at a ridiculous rate. I would regularly clear a set of rear pads on both my Type R's around 10k miles. Again, you can turn traction control off, but even with the front diff pulling you through, your rear will flail out and that's how you kill a biker on a road like the Dragon. You can put the GR in expert mode and the thing just feels dialed in no matter how hard you hurl it into a corner. I've never driven another car that feels so under control at the absolute limit. I think you guys criticized it for feeling "too safe", but I prefer that when I'm trying to stay between the lines on a backroad. I did camber bolts on the GR in the front to get -2.5 ish. Stock is -1.7. That ameliorated any turn in issues I had with the car. There are plenty of times I can take a corner hard and feel both diffs kick in as I get back on the power while also staying between the lines. I don't agree with your sentiments about the vehicle rotation, do you mean specifically under power? Especially in autocross I've gotten the Corolla to rotate a lot and that was just on the stock PS4's. Other reviewers like Everydaydriver and Straight Pipes also preferred the way the Corolla feels on the road. Even the way Car and Driver talks about the GR, including your recent guest in the big comparison vid echoed how he thinks the Corolla belongs on a wild back road in a Michigan winter. If tracking was my priority I'd prefer the FL5, but for everything else I'd take my FK8, or the Corolla. You said it yourself, that was the first time you drove the FL5 that hard on the road, and it wasn't even that hard. I enjoyed the FK8 and the GR more on back roads and at autocross. To each their own. I'm no youtube reviewer or mechanical guru. I'm a professional educator that works damn hard (teaching summer classes, tutoring, saturday school) to afford these low end sports cars. Just figured I'd offer my experience as not many people have owned or driven these cars extensively. You guys have both forgotten more about cars than I'll evern learn. You're my favorite youtube channel alongside throttlehouse. Thanks for all your content.
Honestly if the GR had even the usability of the Golf R I'd want it over the Type R. I don't mind that it's compromised in driving dynamics or interior materials - what I can't do is the compromise in interior space and packaging. But I realize that's not a big deal for a lot of people, and I'm hyped that they get to enjoy it.
I appreciate this As i have shortlisted these cars as well ; Fl5 or, gr corolla ( I would probably buy another 3L Supra mk5 alongside to complement the four door ) Maybe I'll jus go with CTR & Supra Since ive the cheaper 2016 WRX for daily than to get another AWD GR Corolla , it would be a redundant and the 2016 WRX is better interior than GRC I think the CTR interior & family space are really charming & deal maker on this one. A complete family sportcar. On the size , I think Supra just beat the GRC or CTR , different car for different purpose I guess So a better pair is a CTR , Supra & 2016 WRX
Picked up an FL5 for near MSRP. Its great as a daily. Its really mean to be a drivers car. I don't even think about shifting, it just happens. Its fun with reasonable fuel economy. The biggest downsides are the horrific fake engine noises. Its one of the few cars I've owned that I felt like I immediately connected with and always want to drive. And as a bonus (at least for me) it looks like a regular Civic except to those that know about the Type R.
Another great video, Mark! Appreciate the discussion and perspective on this car, which I love. I am an old head who loved Honda/Acura from the late 80’s when I was in high school, through the early aughts having owned multiple of each brand over those years. I miss those cars dearly. And sadly you are right that they are never coming back. Seems Honda has done well with this current generation, but still a couple things missing in both the Civic and Integra will keep me from buying either.
Honda used to make exciting performance cars (NSX, Prelude, S2000 etc) as well as innovative future-thinking cars like the Insight and Clarity. The media at the time even dubbed them "Japan's BMW", but after the financial crisis of 2008, it seems whatever soul they had left was gone. They even admitted to being so obsessed with beating Toyota that they forgot their identity as Honda. Ironically, Toyota now feels closer to the Honda of old thanks to the GR lineup. I dare say even Hyundai looks more like the Honda of old, with the N division pursuing innovation with the Ioniq range and an exciting petrol lineup with the Elantra/i30N, i20N (non-USA sadly) and Kona N.
@@faheemabbas3965 that’s the problem. With what I am willing to spend (up to $60k), I can’t make up my mind. Haven’t found the “one”. Right now, my daily is a 2018 Mazda 6 Signature, which I bought new and only has 47k miles. Love the car. Gives me everything I need, was very reasonable to buy, and has cost me hardly anything to maintain. I am spoiled. With interest rates and inflation, just not seeing what is the next clear purchase.
I'm basically gonna get one of these this week. I had an Si, I loved it, but it had a bad throwout bearing. I traded it in, and got my first SUV, which was a 2024 Rav4. It's nice, it has everything you could want in an SUV: All wheel drive, super responsive 8 speed transmission, engine with a lot of pickup... but in the end it's just boring to drive. I wish I had just replaced the throwout bearing in my 2020 Si, but I didn't. I have regrets because the Si was fun to drive. I looked forward to going on trips and driving places in it. When I wanted to go, it would go, when I wanted to chill, I could chill. And I miss that experience. I always loved to drive, since i got my license. It's a joy to me for some strange reason. And driving the Rav4 has kind of sucked a lot of the joy out of it for me. So after finding a red 2024 Type R near me, I think I'm gonna trade in the Rav4 and get the Type R. And now.. they are actually selling for MSRP again, so the time is good.
Biggest issue today is, at $55K +, why not just get a second-hand Porsche? There are Boxsters and Caymans that have been babied and polished with spring water, that can be had for same or a few $$ more. And they are in a different league, to be honest.
That's literally what I did. My 997 was $35k. It's more expensive to maintain, but overall it's hard to beat the value. The Type-R is probably faster however.
Because most people looking at new Honda cars are ok with the maintenance of a new Honda. However, the maintenance of a 50-60k used Porsche sports car is eye-watering and in a totally different league compared to a new Civic/Integra.
this is the best in depth analysis out there on the type r , absolutely love understanding the design and engineering thought process because it truly helps you understand and work with the vehicle..as others have said do not apologize for the length or depth of this video…I was dreading the end.
Great garage analysis, but your focus on historical context and how it makes the driver feel are standouts. I’m sick of comparisons based on paper statistics which can be meaningless in the real world. It’s the character of the driving experience that matters. Thanks for catering honestly to car enthusiasts!! Hats off to both of you. 😊
Thanks for voting my EN your COTY, looking forward to you driving the re-freshed version for 2024 where they've addressed some issues and if there's someone that will be able to tell, its YOU two👍👍
Excellent video as usual. It's a shame that other capable hothatches never made it to the US, but it would be amazing to watch your review on a Megane RS 275 Trophy, SEAT Cupra 290, Golf GTi Clubsport S, etc.
Please never ever believe you guys bore us with any information. It is that reason why we watch your guys technical videos that are so different than many others! Really appreciate all the work you guys put into each video. Please never change it!
Thanks for this video and the real world perspective of weight and power. People have to factor in their specific needs, wants, location, price, knowledge, support, driver confidence, etc. There aren't a lot of truly bad "sporty" cars out right now, probably because there are so few. But what sporty cars there are, they all seem to have a specific attribute that caters to a specific type of person. I see people defending all of them in one way or another. At the end of the day, if you enjoy it, then that's all that matters. Having owned multiple Subies (GM9 2.5 RS, SG Forester XT, GD STI, GV WRX, ZC BRZ), I currently enjoy my GT Impreza for what it is and it's still fun to drive on twisty roads. I also enjoy taking my Crosstrek in backcountry territory. Use a vehicle for its intended purpose and don't wish it was something it wasn't meant to be. Make it into what you want or buy something that already is that thing you want. I think either way is going to cost you something, and that's just the state of things at this moment. Keep up the good work, brothers!
The start of that in-car session was hilarious, lol. I love the wheels on this car - I get Porsche-like vibes from them. I tried to recreate the same vibe with a set of black Rotiform FLG's on my WRX... but I think the Honda designers nailed the styling on these wheels for the price.
When you mention the sound at around 23 minutes, I've been in faster cars for sure, but the sound the k20 makes in my 8th si is just such an incredible noise and makes me so happy. Forced induction is cool because of the extra power, but nothing beats the sound of an N/A setup.
Fantastic video, Mark. It could have been longer. I can see why the Type R is actually worth $45k or so. My only problem with this car is availability. Even the Si is hard to find in my area.
Great video Mark! I love the Type R. I wasn’t able to find anything without a high markup and ended up with an Elantra N, which I also adore. Coming from a B9 A4 it’s been so fun… but I still have my eye on Type Rs.
Love that you guys keep hammering down on the cost of new cars. It blows my mind seeing so many high figure cars on the road, and knowing that they can't or shouldn't be able to afford it. With inflation, everyone is accepting it as the new norm, but go visit any dealership right now and look at the normal daily driving cars going well below MSRP.
I love my FL5. While it has fwd limitations and its a bit slower then few other cars i have. It alot of fun to drive and out the box handles great. Only drawback is dealership experience outside of that its alot of car for the sticker price. Its alot better with few mods as well :)
Great video!! Happy FK8 owner here for 3 years. Track days are a blast and it’s been perfect over 40k miles… brings a grin to my face every time I take the wheel. Honda nailed it with the Type R IMO.
Great video, appreciate all the shout outs to the little 2300lb miata that could and still tries to exist today in the world of CVT SUVs. In 2020 my budget was $25k, the miata was my stretch purchase at $29k. Veloster N and Civic Si were my other new car options. $45k Type R would be a dream to own. Would be interested if market cools down or the new
I own a 2020 RF and a 2023 FL5. I love the Miata and was afraid the FL5 would make me fall out of love of the Miata. Have owned the FL5 for almost 1 year now and my love for Miata is getting stronger with every street drive. I believe it is the most enjoyable sports car for public roads regardless of price so enjoy that Miata while you can.
Even a $30k car feels like a stretch for me right now, especially with these interest rates. I have a 2020 Camry that was $24k. A base model Corolla Cross is like $25-27k where I live. I wanna try something different now, but it seems like the budget options are very few now compared to only a few years ago.
Considering everything (I mean literally everything incl. pricing point, markup and a bit of novelty due to a lack of supply), I really don't believe this beats Elantra N.
watch misha drive the type r on the nordschleife, he literally couldnt drive the entire lap because it overheated. honda still hasn't fixed the well know overheating issue which begs the question how much of a performance car is it? @@ghostridertom
Great video Mark, love the detail and the passion. I bought an FL5 in January, and for various reasons I have not (yet) been able to drive it as much as I had planned. But I totally agree with your summary that it’s a car you can enjoy at any speed, for how it feels and what it stands for. Every time I get in, even just to go to the supermarket or pick my daughter from school, it’s still a special experience. For that reason, it’s a car I plan to keep hold off for a long time. I hope you do another update on the CTR in future. Your perspective on these cars resonates with me more than anyone else on here.
You need to really love this car to make it worth the purchase. There are so many purchases in the used market for the same price that deliver much more value.
@@senseicorey9979if you're looking at performance only, this is indeed a horrible choice. I bought mine because it's also an incredible daily that I don't have to worry about. I have enough cars that I have to fix shit on lol
I wanted a Type-R bc I remember Honda to be so good and the gearbox is amazing! Due to the mark-upss at the car-scalping stealerships I was not willing to pay for a car I would have to finance. Even the SI was marked up to 35k bc the stealership said it is exclusive in the MT model. I told them they need an "exclusive" buyer and forgot all about the Type-R and the 50k I wasn't letting go of for a fwd car. Ilooked at my options and considered the Golf GTI and found a car called the Elantra N that was peculiar. After test-driving the Elantra N I never made it to my appointment at the VW dealership. I bought my Elantra N for 34k and drove it home that day. The infotainment display , steering wheel, and exhaust sound are as good as any car I have seen. It makes me forget that the car isn't as pretty as the Type-R. The Honda dealership followed-up with me a month later wondering why I wasn't nervously pining and crawling back to them to pay 5k over sticker for an SI and I told them I got a better car that cost less than what they wanted for their "exclusive" car. I have a CN7 that I couldn't be happier with. I gap Golf GTI and make between 300-320 whp running 95 octane fuel with nothing but a tune, sparkplugs and lower motor mount for mods. I will have the car paid off next year after two years of ownership and saved 16k plus the interest I would have paid financing a Type-R. We will see how I like my CN7 next year after two years of ownership, but don't laugh, it's paid for.
Isn't it weird being treated like a peasant at a Honda dealership? I say this as an S2K owner. If I don't drive the S2K and park it up front they don't treat me like a serious buyer. I found the Acura dealer (for the Integra Type S) much nicer, probably since their brand is entering a bit of a tenuous position.
Stop making excuses and downplaying yourself, Mark. We are never bored, we like this stuff! Maybe your analytics say otherwise, but a large segment of your audience comes here for a deep engineering perspective they cannot get literally anywhere else!
Agree 100%! 👍
But they like the constant compliments so set the bar low and crush it every time
+1
Personally I don't like it. We all know as a TH-camr you get preferential treatment and you can pick a car whenever you want and switch it out and always be comfortable. 99% of people can't even afford a Honda fit from 10 years ago. Let alone this Civic. It's already unobtainium for the maturity of people out there and when someone's out here telling us how awesome it is to own it. It's not that we are spiteful and don't want someone to have it good but rather them trying to convince us that this is something special. It's not at the end of the day. This isn't what people wanted.
Well said
10-15 years from now when this car is no longer around... This video will be. There will be that 2nd or 3rd owner who wants to know why the car is so special. This video will keep them hooked and they will love every minute. Thanks for preserving Hondas history with this effort. The enthusiasts appreciate the effort.
5years ago new enginering mechanical.
15 years from now people might be saying: "I tried the 2024 Civic Type-R but I couldn't handle its utter lack of assists long-term."
Meanwhile people who find it awful and prefer a car from 2000 are probably already dead. The old cars might even have gotten destroyed by ecofascists who are calling them rolling climate crimes.
Given that Toyota has taken up the baton and they're not holding back, I suspect they've yet to make the ultimate ICE sport car that'll defy electrification. The bulky Type-R will be a gas guzzler in comparison... Type-R is Honda's ego trip and a pretend car for the masses. Bottom feeder TH-cam channel have this car as their main.
@@psewgobindNo idea why you're always jumping on some other bandwagon and projecting yourself onto other people and brands... 😂
@@Vermonstered It's a wonderful thing to project truth that resinates. Those with rigid realities are the problem.
Mark we love this sh*t lol. Vids like these are why we subscribe and I’m sure play a part in why you’ve gotten unprecedented access to the manufacturing process. This coulda been twice as long I’m sure 98% of us would still watch. Cliche I know but “keep it up and don’t change”.
Totally. Most car journalists wouldn't care enough or be able to interpret the language of the engineers and designers. The few that do, deserve the chance to tell these stories.
You summed up my thoughts exactly. He is simply the best car technical reviewer in the world. On a cheeky note I have an idea for merch. Coffee mug with the writing "I survived the Savagegeese technical presentation".
I am an ITS owner, Honda dude, and CTR appreciator.
1. Thanks for all the technical info as it helps me to understand my car better.
2. You are 100% correct in my opinion, about Honda not bringing back the old NSX and S2000, the reasons for doing so, and that for people who want that experience, to buy those cars now. (15 year S2000 owner, 8 year NSX owner here.)
3. CTR and ITS are an excellent one-car solution for the enthusiast with a family….if they are willing to pay the price and ADM. ITS is easier to find at MSRP at the moment.
Thank you again!
Well said! I have an s2k that I track and bought an ITS a couple of months ago as my daily....and I have a wife and 2 kids, and one is still in a car seat. I was cross shopping the CTR and ITS, and went with an Apex Blue ITS because I was able to snag one at MSRP after months of shopping all around.
Honestly, if I sell the s2k, the ITS is so good that it could easily be a capable hpde car and an ideal daily. It doesn't even matter that it's a fwd family hatch!
I read this and thought to myself, this sounds like Bob from AcuraZine. Then I looked at the username and it was you 😂
@@IllIIllllIlIlIll outed 🤣🤣
It's won't hold its value as well as an R
@hondaman8648 I don't care as much about resale as I'm actually driving it and didnt pay a markup....all transmissions come from Japan, all k20c engines are built here in Ohio. They are essentially mechanically identical, and turn identical lap times down to the 100th of a second. I'm 35, so I appreciate the daily creature comforts of the ITS. Also, production numbers are just about the same as well.
We are never bored. The videos are never too technical or too long. They are never too in-depth or long winded. Let it all rip with these videos. If you're feeling self-conscious, just start making 5 minute drag race videos. Do not ease up on the in-depth videos. Thank you!
Just letting you know, you never bore us with technical information. The stuff you provide you can't get elsewhere. It's what makes this channel stand out. It such a nice listen too, even on a commute. So thank you very much!
Totally agree. And if it's too much for someone, they can just skip to the drive section.
2nd gen BRZ owner here. i loved your GR86 long term series and i know i’m gonna love this. as a huge car nerd and gearhead, y’all’s channel drops knowledge we can’t get anywhere else. much love.
When I drove the fk8 type r I was astounded by the ride quality in comfort mode, the practicality of the hatchback, the precision of the 6 speed manual and the piece de resistance was the cornering grip performance and lack of understeer. I think the fl5 looks better inside and out but the fk8 is finally coming down on the used car market and it may find a place next to my nb1 Miata in the garage.
Shoot for 2021 fk8. It has a ton of upgrades over the previous fk8 models
-- i just checked the used market value for a 2021 CTR. $39K w/ 40k miles?!?!!?!?!?!?! MSRP was $38K.
@@jlui21 I found older fk8’s for $28k and that’s tempting
I was fortunate enough to drive an FK8 CTR at the Nürburgring. I was overall not impressed. Cooling issues, shifter seemed fragile. Great chassis feel but overall experience was a letdown. I spoke with the mechanics at the business I rented it from and they confirmed their CTRs had been really problematic. For street use only, great car, but I’d avoid if you plan any track work. I followed those laps with a few in a Megáne RS and a Hyundai i30N, and found both to be more balanced handling (better rotation) and more fun/less fragile feeling.
@@tammerfarid Intresting experience and not at all what I have seen here in the States. I have seen many CTR’s at track days and they are not the ones pulled over for cooling issues. Typically it has been very reliable but upgrading the cooling for a track car is very important.
It's sad because they keep getting better, that comes with more cost. Back in the day we would buy the basic Honda civic and build it ourselves, now everyone wants to buy an out of the box super awesome car and pay low entry price.
As a fan of Honda, I really appreciate Mark's coverage of his S2000 and now CTR. I watched his S2000 video numerous times before finally purchasing one a few years ago, and still go back to it every now and then to learn more about it. I would love to buy a CTR someday, but without dealer mark up which might mean never. But at least I have Mark's videos and hopefully learned something.
They will def be able to be had without mark up. Just be ready to buy and willing to contact many dealers. Esp on 23’s when the 24s are en route
Good news I see plenty used examples on sale today in the mid 40s.
The Integra Type S is currently being sold at -$3000 under MSRP because sales are pathetic 😂 8+ rotting in my local dealership
@@SilverScarletSpider which state is your dealership at?
@@SilverScarletSpiderHow about Type R? I am not a fan of the more expensive Type S or the look
As a Rallye Red FL5 owner in the UK it's always good to hear educated opinions from people who actually take the time to know and understand. It's really difficult to silence the neigh-sayers and there are a lot of them. And this video is a good place to point them. Educational and a genuinely great watch.
nice car... but it's only a honda! Better go for Vauxhall Insignia Turbo
The engineering of the Type R is fascinating. So much more subtle than you’d think yet very purposeful. Like it really is taking a normal car and making it as much a race car as you can.
Professionally tuned 🔧 by Honda
As much race car as u can while still being fun and streetable. It could be more race car but no one would want that it would ruin the car. Most race cars arent as fun to drive as street cars n there brutal.
yeh slow 0-60
@@Lemingtona-x5gnobody cares
@@Lemingtona-x5g Thankfully Honda didn't design this car to only be good in a straight line
Another reason we long for the sporty four cylinder manuals of the 80's, 90's, and 2000's... "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow." I don't know who came up with that, an owner of a fast car or a slow car, but they were on to something. I love the time I spend driving my '87 CRX Si.
I agree. I have a 2002 WRX that I bought new. Through the years I made it faster and did some handling mods. In 2012 I finally blew the motor after 172,000 miles. It has sat and sat. In 2019 I bought a slow 2009 Forester X non turbo to daily while I finally fixed my WRX. Found out STi everything fits on the Forester. It has full aftermarket suspension and handles better than the WRX ever did. I have done nothing to the motor. 170hp stock. It is so much fun when people with much more expensive cars can't keep up in the corners. The WRX has a table full of parts to go on but yet it still sits.
@@lordraiden5398 An old WRX sounds like a hoot to drive, though apparently the new one isn't bad either, especially since the FA24F engine holds up to mods quite well - a huge plus considering the enormous catalog of aftermarket WRX parts. The plastic cladding may look weird, but at least you can take it on a dirt road, drive like the late Colin McRae, and not worry about the wheel arches rusting.
Let me know how an underpowered car works for you on a medium sized track. These reviews play into small tracks that cater to small cars and tight corners to make it look like it's a competitive car.
You need a decent amount of power and a 50k, 300 horsepower car will have you being passed by just about everything except for a Miata or BRZ
That is unless you fall for the marketing where they place the car on the smallest of tracks that don't really amount to anything other than playing into deception and marketing.
lol. Tell me how you’ve never owned a fast car, without telling me.
@@backnu Why are you worried about cars passing you, you in a race or something?
Glad to hear Mark mention MR2. The driving experience I had with my new 1988 MR2 Supercharged has never been duplicated. 145hp felt fast. RWD, plenty of grip, a wonderful green house with the T-tops...that car was memorable.
Totally agree! I just restored my 88 SC MR2 recently, full rebuilt and built later spec motor, LSD 5 speed from a low mileage Japanese spec car. Full TRD headers, motor mounts, recaros the whole 9 yards. Ive yet to find a sports car that competes with the sheer joy it can put on your face at any speed.
This video is amazing. Thank you guys for what you do.
I waffled so much on ordering a 22 SI and you guys are what finally convinced me to do it. It’s been an amazing car.
I know everyone seems to want to have their own hot take, but I love what Honda has managed to do in this era of soulless cars.
Which is what…? They also made a soulless Zombie just like everyone else 😆
We only like it cause it has a Honda TYPE-R badge on it.
Any manufacturer that has stooped down to using fake engine sounds coming from the speakers is DEAD TO ME. 😢
I'm looking at one too...my daily is still my 2008 SI. What do you like most about it? Any regrets about not spending the extra cash on a type R?
@@I_know_what_im_talking_aboutdid you even watch the video?
@I_know_what_im_talking_about poor little dude. You're too slow to understand how important good handling, a solid drivetrain and daily drivability is huh?
@@fhowland I always wanted a fun Civic in my teens and 20s and never could afford one. It’s got all the fun factor of those early 2000s ricers my rich friends had. I had a couple Corollas over the years and no matter how sporty you try to outfit a Corolla, they always feel like an econo car IMO. I think the SI has a perfect balance of usability and fun. And I can’t answer versus the Type R because they’re virtually unobtainium. I’ve honestly not seen a current gen type R in person yet.
Man, I've been looking for a video and channel like this! A video where engineering aspects are explained in detail and you can get the passion from the voice. Keep up the work!
Haven’t commented in a while but the long form videos are incredible especially when you and the team talk about where the car market is today in the past or present during your car rides. You all still share your honest opinion without trying to appease the car industry executives or companies and thats what makes the video worth watching in my opinion.
Thank you for this amazing in-depth video, civic type-R has been my favourite Japanese car for many many years. Really enjoyed this video 👍🏼
I hope you keep it. My sister refuses to sell her S2k. That FL5 is a future true classic.
My plan is to keep it. But $$$ is the question mark.
I’m so happy with my FL5!! Honestly it’s been the best duel purpose car I’ve ever owned.
How heavy is the clutch?
Not heavy at all.
@@davelospinoso9022less heavy than a wrx and gr corolla
If I'm being honest, I'm not even necessarily in the market for a type-r but I still found this video very thoughtful and insightful. Thank you for sharing the technical information as well as your own personal insight and philosophy. It does have the feeling of an end of an era and what a way to go out.
Looking forward to getting a FL5. You hit the nail on the head - I have dedicated sports cars (S2000, E46 M3) but they have become more point A to point A type cars for a multitude of reasons and I don't drive them much. I was stuck trying to figure out what daily to get to replace my BRZ (not really looking to keep these past 50k miles and the shifter/clutch/throttle tuning is terrible which is what you engage with on a daily basis). I was between a FL5 and a Miata (yes, I know) but ended up finding a FL5 "allocation" at near MSRP. It's just hard to find a car that still has driver engagement with normal driving. None of the Germans do it, my MK5 Supra was deadass boring to drive unless you were going 10-11/10.
I hope your channel helps the manufacturers understand we (enthusiasts) are still out here looking for cars with driving engagement. The FL5, Miata, and BRZ all engage the driver in different ways with the FL5 obviously being the most practical. Glad Honda has kept what makes their cars so engaging to drive (fantastic inputs, engine character, driver engagement) while still offering great practicality & reliability. Hoping I like it for the long term.
Mark & Jack are simply THE BEST car reviewers. Detailed, technical, honest, and I enjoy their snarky humor. (And I’m an old dude.)
Savagegeese is my go-to source for auto reviews, and I rate them better than Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Consumer Reports, and all the other TH-cam channels. And I watch/read most of them.
Your "final thoughts" was the best argument for the Miata ND3 that'll come out next year, as their last ICE powered Miata. Great show today.
It's really impressive that they designed the turbo to spool up so quickly while also not choking the hell out of the engine at higher RPM. My 1.5t FK7 clearly gets choked out above 4.7k rpm and it makes it barely worth it to rev much past that.
I owned a 2018 sport hatchback before I bought my 2021 Type R. I honestly believe anyone who owns a Type R, should’ve owned a Sport first. The Sport is a fantastic car, great handling and excellent fuel economy. It’s a blast to drive. I enjoyed every mile for three years.
Then I drove my new R in September 2021. Holy shit! It is an absolute beast. I was almost shaking from the excitement of everything it does. The sport and R look very much alike, and when I sat in the R for the first time, everything looked and felt familiar. That is, until you push the start button. It’s insane!
But I will say this: I preferred the steering wheel in my sport, over the R. The sport’s is a little bit thicker, and just feels better. I get a lot of waves from people in their Sport model, and I always wave back. They own a sweet car too!
Yep, the guys that tried to tune/build the 1.5t have bascially said it's an eco engine first. The airflow through the head and manifolds are awful and the rod bolts and rods themselves are very weak. Apparently the CR-V's and Accords are starting to blow hesdgaskets and who knows if the oil dilution issues are really solved. It's an amazing engine for being a daily and for some light fun but it's definitely not a performance engine.
They do that with VTEC. Normal cams for higher pressure at low rpm because it opens less, aggressive cam when it reaches higher rpm and needs flow. It only has it on the exhaust.
The Si is much more free revving up top.
Just bought mine today. Three hour drive home. Best 3 hour drive of my life. My jaw hit the floor on how incredible the FL5 is. Like… it’s amazing
That’s how I felt driving home my new 2023 FA24 WRX from the dealer, makes me smile every time I drive her.
Mark vs. Casey was awesome to watch, pause, compare, straight up great driving Mark! This video explains why I have a 1991 CRX Si and a 2000 Civic Si in my garage right now. I want to feel something. Keep up the great work gentlemen!
The engineering is why I watch you guys you're like the automotive Digital Foundry but even better!!!
when I needed to buy, dealer markup here in MD was $10-$15k above MSRP no matter who I called. Based on your review and my own test drive, I happily "settled" for and Si and, for what it is, it's a masterpiece. Sure I'd rather have an R but I cannot stomach the extreme mark ups.
Dealers near me were charging >40k for an si
Insane
Imagine being one of the dudes who paid 10k over for an Si during peak pricing
Dude!!! Si was sticker at 28k. The odds of you getting one for sticker is 0. You probably payed 38k out the door!!😂
Dealers are the worst, they really hurt the brand and screw over the enthusiasts who those cars were built for.
@@nathanielsmith1892 a 2023 stickered at $29k. I paid $2k over, which was the lowest add on I could find. And there were only two in my area at the time, the other one was 2 hours away and $5500 over.
even though your analytics may say otherwise, the people i.e me who watch videos like this absolutely love them. no other channel does this type of content with the passion and sincerity like you and jack. keep it up
Mark, videos like this are why I have been subscribed and religiously watched you guys for years. Please never change and keep delivering videos like this that take a deep dive into the engineering and philosophy of these cars. I enjoy every minute of these longer videos and you see that many of the rest of this comment section does too.
Around the years 2000, the Civic type R was a dream car for young drivers, but nowadays the only true exciting affordable sports car is named : ND3 MX-5 Miata. It is your LAST CHANCE ! Don't miss it before they soon all become hybrids.
I drove my friends Type R and I am not afraid to say today that I would of traded my 2023 M3 6MT for it, of course at the time with the M3 being new I had to justify but it is what it is, now that I ditched the M3 for a CT4V Blackwing I am digging passionate cars like the type R. And Mark, please keep doing what you do, you have no idea how much some of us appreciate your reviews !
Keep the BW and never look back. I want to post the come here with a cinder block meme after reading you'd trade an m3 for a ctr
How does the CT4V BW compare to the CTR despite the price difference?
I would of kept the m3 far superior to a Chevy. The s58 is a great reliable platform.
@@khemchee4685the CT4 is just so much more of a drivers car. The M3 has no feel, it’s a robot
I'm proud of my NorCal Elk Grovians. The FL5s are sitting on the lot since the summer. Honda/Acura still not budging on the markups yet. One of them got parked by sprinklers, after warterspots you can see where the detailer swirled up the paint with wool pad.
Its a Joke! EG Honda wants close to 70k! And Future Honda is asking 75k! got them down to 56k! but no way will pay over sticker. told them im all in at msrp.
Great video. I made the point about not being able to hear your own 4 cylinder while sharing the track with the V8s in the comments here a few months ago, so glad to hear that same point made here. Of course the actual solution is to let the driver turn it on or off.
All of these "final" non-electrified cars are going to dominate trackdays for decades. We look at them as compromises today, but in 20 years we'll realize this was the pinnacle of the 4-cylinder turbo, hot hatch, etc.
This is absolutely the best automotive content on the platform.
The final thoughts were outstanding to sum up your feelings and philosophy about the Type R. The rest of the video was not boring at all. Thanks for helping me defeat the tryptophan coma.
Mark, you nailed it at the end. I could have purchased a new S2000 but didn't and always regretted it. I test drove a nice used S2000 before buying the FL5 Civic R and for some reason was underwhelmed. It's like a rock star who died in their prime ... they were the best ever! So yes it was a mechanical marvel but think the FL5 has a bit of that old school mechanical feel in just daily driving... somehow it's still there if you turn off all the safety stuff. Being a much more rounded package and finding one at MSRP made it a no brainer. Excellent review and commentary... the best I've seen on this car, thanks a lot!
Fantastic video and sums things up nicely! I am a lucky owner of a 2000 DC2R which I bought second hand as my first real car back in 2005. It has been with me from my bachelor days to now where I have two young kids under 7. I was doing drop off's and school runs in the DC2R but let's be honest - it's not the safest car by any standards! So this year, with the Wife's blessing, we picked up a CW FL5 (DC2R in garage now). It does it all... Grocery run, school run, sprints, luggage/box duties... But most of all it feels great to drive at any speed as mentioned in your video. Since owning, I find any excuse to drive it to feel the specialness it brings. ♥ It. Driving the FL5 then hopping into the DC2R... There are a lot of parallels and you can see the DNA in the FL5. It also makes the DC2R's lightness (and also safety gap) obvious!! I hope to keep both to pass on to my kids so they can enjoy this in years to come....
Thank you for your reviews. I have watched you guys for years. As a retired engineer, I appreciate your technical info. I purchased a new SGP Type-R this week. I do not have experience with owning performance cars, so for me this car feels “special”
Thanks Mark, I just picked up my FL5 last week and loving the video.
Must be fun getting shafted by Honda for a civic
@@singular9 Seems like you speak from experience. Getting shafted, I mean.
Let people enjoy what they enjoy. There's enough shit to be mad about, and this ain't one of them.
Congratulations, I wish I could get one as a second car, I'm too worried about getting flat tires to have it as my only car. The FL5 and the Gulia are the only cars I would buy today. I own a Macan and can never own anything else. Suv wise. It's the perfect suv. Enjoy the type R, most people will only dream about it.
@@singular9 it’s a fantastic machine. Get that hate out yo heart.
Not really, MSRP only in Australia. @@singular9
Your summary of new cars compared to old and the experience change is spot on. That’s why I bought a Rush SR1 for the track because it delivers on the feel. I love my M340i for a daily driver but you can’t have it all in a modern street legal car.
Currently own a 2003 s2000 and am contemplating a move to the type r. I value your insight since you own both. Keep up the great work mark and jack. Been following since the days with Scott 🍻
fwd is crap
Get lost 😂@@Lemingtona-x5g
I drove one of these yesterday and I can’t stop thinking about it. It’s a truly special car.
I bought a civic sedan in the touring trim and it's an amazing car for my every day use (even with my two car seats). I was lucky to get it somewhat close to msrp. The civic type r just seems unattainable for most of us due to the markups, despite it being a great great car. If it was a serious choice for me between the type r and elantra N at this point in my life id go with the elantra N due to not being a huge pain to get and being cheaper
True, honda went crazy with this car. Too expensive.
Real review from a real owner of the car. Your detail information of mechanical engineering is almost as good as your dialogue regarding the role of this car and others in the market.
I traded my FK8 in for a 2SS 1LE (love it) but we got a FL5 in where I work (dealership) and I have to say, it has me THINKING!! what a car is all I can say, it's that much better than the FK8 which is crazy to say really.
Long winded yes, informative definitely. Appreciate you taking the time and being so detailed. It’s why I’m here for every video.
So happy you're making this amazing Honda content. I'm a long time Honda fan please dont stop. The passion in your videos keeps me coming back.
Outstanding video, you really explain that this isn’t just a civic that was slapped with a “R” badge and more horsepower. It’s a very special car that was thought out and engineered from the ground up.
Thank you for the awesome deep dive - you guys deserve to have many more than 1 million subscribers! It's incredible the level of engineering that Honda put into this car. Looking forward to your future Honda videos including the NSX deep dive!
I'm in the casting industry for 15 years now, making flywheels, houses, intakes, etc. You really help me to understand how all of these parts relate to each other and why I have to deal with a new rev # on parts every 3 years or so. Thank you!
Great video and love the tech talk. The only thing missing in most of these videos is weighing the value against the actual average transaction price. At $45k I’m all in… at $55-58k, I spent just a little extra and got a CT4 Blackwing. That was a tough call as a Honda die-hard but the value just wasn’t there at the real world price point.
just glad they're making NEW TYPE R's to bring the used 2017-2020's type r prices back down to earth. Those owners were getting BIG headed.
Phenomenal overview as usual Mark. Thank you for this! Nobody does it to this level. It’s so analytical, and precise with no BS. Undoubtedly its not a mass market review style. But like this FL5 it’s very special indeed.
Bought a '19 CTR w/ 30k miles back in April. Love it. Such an upgrade over the Si. Great DD. Babyseat in the back. Only complaint is you have to get used to the front bumper / lip height being a touch lower than a normal car and take approach angles accordingly because I hate scraping.
my integra a spec scrapes leaving my driveway at stock height oops
@@ShaiyanHossain My own driveway as well if I don't take it at an angle. Drives me mental.
Excellent video, put in an order for one today after watching this. Thanks for the great content.
30:30 It's not the same price as the GR Corolla. A 23 GR Corolla with the PP is $7-8k less expensive. You bought a Circuit Edition which is mechanically identical to the $38k Core with PP.
I’m not sure why a lot of automotive channels missed this nuance. You would think that it would’ve been brought up as a lot of “enthusiast” channels always bring up “best bang for your buck” (or similar expression). Particularly for the GR Corolla, the core is the trim that a majority of people will buy and the trim Toyota will make the most of.
Car channels made a similar error when reviewing the S209 STI. They gave the impression all STIs were $60k+ but really failed to point out that the S209 was an extremely limited model that was the pinnacle STI with a factory warranty. At the time, a regular STI was about $36k.
they take every opportunity they have to shit on the GRC. We know it is an inferior car to the CTR; but it is cheaper, awd, and it's Toyota's first attempt at making a fun car out of an economy platform in the modern era.
I agree, but it's the reality of the situation. In my opinion, I value the GRC more so than the Supra or 86 because the GRC was an in-house Toyota development.
Performance-wise, I think they're pretty even. I think where the GRC loses is the creature-comforts, with most complaints at the hard interior plastics and the "overheating" of the rear clutch pack. I think we'll be stuck with hard plastic interior, but I'd imagine the "overheating" rear clutch pack would be addressed in future models if the GRC becomes a main-stay in Toyota's lineup. The problem with a first-gen product.
Coincidentally, when the FK8 was released, there was overheating issues due high coolant and oil temps and the car essentially going into limp mode on track days.
First of all, FANTASTIC video! I’ve watched it several times because I’m on the fence about buying a FL5 vs GR Corolla vs Elantra N vs WRX TR - and you make it very clear just how special this car is. Not that I’m looking at it as an investment, but I fully believe that the Type R will hold its value WAY better than the others I’ve listed - especially once everything goes electrified (which is going to be SOON). I think you analysis of the car is spot on. I too had my doubts about a FWD car handling as good as all the hype dished out on it, but I had the privilege and outright pleasure to spend a lot of time in one that my friend owns this past weekend driving five hours to “The Tail of the Dragon” and ripping it through there several times - and it 100% lives up to the hype. It is ASTONISHINGLY good. WAY better than any FWD car has any right to be. It absolutely made a believer out of me… to the point that I’m thinking very seriously about buying one if I can find one for MSRP. Thanks again for the video. The information you provide in it is invaluable. ❤
Sound system is A+ in the 11th gen Civic and Accord. It's Bose, no highs no lows.
I wanted a FL5 but the price point a year ago drove me to a purchase a used 10th Gen Accord 2.0t instead. Hopefully the price comes down to MSRP in the next few years, and I will go and nab a lightly used FL5.
Not sure I would want to buy a used manual car myself. But that’s up to you.
@@Barbwire710 I would, after I had it inspected by a reputable mechanic. I haven't bough a brand new car in over 20 years. I usually buy Lease turn-ins due to their low miles and requirements to maintain them under the lease put on by the lease by the dealership.
Exquisite how well you integrated the 'Montage Artificial' for 30 seconds in between all the great content and detail. 'Insert chef's kiss'
I’ve got a manual first gen v6 Mazda6 that I cant sell for the life of me. It’s just so much more fun to drive than the newer cars like the civic Si. Shifter and clutch are very mechanical. Very little sound deadening which makes it a little noisy at highway speeds but you can hear the engine rev. And because it doesn’t have much low end torque you have to rev it out which is a blast. Hydraulic power steering. Double wishbone up front and multi-link rear. It is fwd and a little nose heavy but it’s a blast to drive around town at legal speeds.
That sounds fun. What year is it? DO NOT SELL IT.
Then get a WRX
I have a 2016 Mazda 3 (the car which brought me to Savagegeese because of their review) which will probably be pried from my cold dead fingers for exactly the reasons you cite. It's not that powerful (2.0L - 155 hp), it's kind of noisy on the highway (especially on coarse pavement texture), and it's running 205/60R16 tires, so mechanical grip is not face-bending.
But it has a connectedness and cohesiveness that has disappeared from newer cars. It "sings" to me in a way other cars don't.
As this review notes, that quality is rapidly disappearing from our automotive landscape as cars become bigger, heavier, and more technology-laden. We'll only be able to find it in niche vehicles (e.g. the ND2 Miata) going forward, and that's a shame.
@@juanbonilla9096 2004
ya, I had a chance to get a mazda 6 sport manual brand new for 19k a few years ago and didn't buy because I didn't need a car right then
I’ve owned this car for nearly one year after having an FK8 for six years. I drive them all year-round, daily. Some autocross and track time in both. The car has to family as well. And I live in Canada in an area that gets very cold and with a lot of snow.
All of that is just to say that my experience matches Marks to almost 100%. His well delivered assessment is spot on, and I was thrilled to learn some engineering titbits that I’ve not been able to find anywhere else. Would love to see a video on the swapped suspension module, because the level of detail you include is what I’m looking for. Not just ’ it feels great.’
As always, awesome video thank you very much guys.
I put 8k miles on my FL5 before I sold it. I came from an FK8. I now own the GR Corolla (12k miles), Circuit like yours albeit Supersonic Red. I agree that the FL5 is a fantastic car in myriad ways. But, to me personally it lost something with how big it feels. My priority isn't track driving. I go twice a year: VIR, Barber, Road Atlanta. I autocross a ton. Most of all I love to drive backroads. To me the FL5 feels big compared to the FK8 the way the raptor eye STI feels to the older models. It's a subtle disparity in measurement, but in my opinion you relinquish the small car x-factor where you feel like you can find your line whilst staying in your lane on a backroad jaunt.
I also think the FL5 loses to the FK8 in a few areas that are important to me. The FL5 shifter is better (though I still got second gear grinds occasionally). I honestly thought the steering feel was better in the FK8 (This sentiment was mirrored by Thomas on Throttle House). There was also the fact that the FK8 was faster in a straight line. That blew my mind. My work commute is 3/4's country roads, and then I hit a long sweeping onramp to the highway. The first time I pushed that onramp in my FL5 the car felt slower than my FK8. At the time I figured I'd gotten bad gas. Later my fears were confirmed by a few different reviewers. Why is the "everything better, significantly more expensive FL5" slower off the roll? I know I could have gotten a tune or modded it or whatever, but that makes no sense to me on a significantly more expensive car. It should have a similar tune to the Integra Type S.
I also visit Tail of the Dragon quite often. I hawked down a Supra in the FL5 on that road. That was an amazing experience, but there were several times the tail whipped out and grazed the double yellows. To drive that car hard on the roads safely you can't turn off traction control completely--which means you're also eating through your rear pads at a ridiculous rate. I would regularly clear a set of rear pads on both my Type R's around 10k miles. Again, you can turn traction control off, but even with the front diff pulling you through, your rear will flail out and that's how you kill a biker on a road like the Dragon. You can put the GR in expert mode and the thing just feels dialed in no matter how hard you hurl it into a corner. I've never driven another car that feels so under control at the absolute limit. I think you guys criticized it for feeling "too safe", but I prefer that when I'm trying to stay between the lines on a backroad.
I did camber bolts on the GR in the front to get -2.5 ish. Stock is -1.7. That ameliorated any turn in issues I had with the car. There are plenty of times I can take a corner hard and feel both diffs kick in as I get back on the power while also staying between the lines. I don't agree with your sentiments about the vehicle rotation, do you mean specifically under power? Especially in autocross I've gotten the Corolla to rotate a lot and that was just on the stock PS4's. Other reviewers like Everydaydriver and Straight Pipes also preferred the way the Corolla feels on the road. Even the way Car and Driver talks about the GR, including your recent guest in the big comparison vid echoed how he thinks the Corolla belongs on a wild back road in a Michigan winter.
If tracking was my priority I'd prefer the FL5, but for everything else I'd take my FK8, or the Corolla. You said it yourself, that was the first time you drove the FL5 that hard on the road, and it wasn't even that hard. I enjoyed the FK8 and the GR more on back roads and at autocross. To each their own. I'm no youtube reviewer or mechanical guru. I'm a professional educator that works damn hard (teaching summer classes, tutoring, saturday school) to afford these low end sports cars. Just figured I'd offer my experience as not many people have owned or driven these cars extensively.
You guys have both forgotten more about cars than I'll evern learn. You're my favorite youtube channel alongside throttlehouse. Thanks for all your content.
Great comment! Just writing this to appreciate so you know someone read it
@@preludeh22a57thank you 😂
Noooo, ur supposed to enjoy the tail end happy fwd car. Not the stable awd of the grc!
Honestly if the GR had even the usability of the Golf R I'd want it over the Type R. I don't mind that it's compromised in driving dynamics or interior materials - what I can't do is the compromise in interior space and packaging. But I realize that's not a big deal for a lot of people, and I'm hyped that they get to enjoy it.
I appreciate this
As i have shortlisted these cars as well ;
Fl5 or, gr corolla ( I would probably buy another 3L Supra mk5 alongside to complement the four door )
Maybe I'll jus go with CTR & Supra
Since ive the cheaper 2016 WRX for daily than to get another AWD GR Corolla , it would be a redundant and the 2016 WRX is better interior than GRC
I think the CTR interior & family space are really charming & deal maker on this one. A complete family sportcar.
On the size , I think Supra just beat the GRC or CTR , different car for different purpose I guess
So a better pair is a CTR , Supra & 2016 WRX
Picked up an FL5 for near MSRP. Its great as a daily. Its really mean to be a drivers car. I don't even think about shifting, it just happens. Its fun with reasonable fuel economy. The biggest downsides are the horrific fake engine noises. Its one of the few cars I've owned that I felt like I immediately connected with and always want to drive. And as a bonus (at least for me) it looks like a regular Civic except to those that know about the Type R.
What color FL5 did you get? I have the Rallye Red. It was the only one in my area (within 300 mi radius, in July 2024)
Another great video, Mark! Appreciate the discussion and perspective on this car, which I love. I am an old head who loved Honda/Acura from the late 80’s when I was in high school, through the early aughts having owned multiple of each brand over those years. I miss those cars dearly. And sadly you are right that they are never coming back. Seems Honda has done well with this current generation, but still a couple things missing in both the Civic and Integra will keep me from buying either.
Honda used to make exciting performance cars (NSX, Prelude, S2000 etc) as well as innovative future-thinking cars like the Insight and Clarity. The media at the time even dubbed them "Japan's BMW", but after the financial crisis of 2008, it seems whatever soul they had left was gone. They even admitted to being so obsessed with beating Toyota that they forgot their identity as Honda. Ironically, Toyota now feels closer to the Honda of old thanks to the GR lineup. I dare say even Hyundai looks more like the Honda of old, with the N division pursuing innovation with the Ioniq range and an exciting petrol lineup with the Elantra/i30N, i20N (non-USA sadly) and Kona N.
What car will you buy then? Just curious.
@@faheemabbas3965 that’s the problem. With what I am willing to spend (up to $60k), I can’t make up my mind. Haven’t found the “one”. Right now, my daily is a 2018 Mazda 6 Signature, which I bought new and only has 47k miles. Love the car. Gives me everything I need, was very reasonable to buy, and has cost me hardly anything to maintain. I am spoiled. With interest rates and inflation, just not seeing what is the next clear purchase.
I'm basically gonna get one of these this week. I had an Si, I loved it, but it had a bad throwout bearing. I traded it in, and got my first SUV, which was a 2024 Rav4. It's nice, it has everything you could want in an SUV: All wheel drive, super responsive 8 speed transmission, engine with a lot of pickup... but in the end it's just boring to drive. I wish I had just replaced the throwout bearing in my 2020 Si, but I didn't. I have regrets because the Si was fun to drive. I looked forward to going on trips and driving places in it. When I wanted to go, it would go, when I wanted to chill, I could chill. And I miss that experience. I always loved to drive, since i got my license. It's a joy to me for some strange reason. And driving the Rav4 has kind of sucked a lot of the joy out of it for me. So after finding a red 2024 Type R near me, I think I'm gonna trade in the Rav4 and get the Type R. And now.. they are actually selling for MSRP again, so the time is good.
Biggest issue today is, at $55K +, why not just get a second-hand Porsche? There are Boxsters and Caymans that have been babied and polished with spring water, that can be had for same or a few $$ more. And they are in a different league, to be honest.
Well, because it would be a second-hand Porsche. God knows what hidden issues you will find and maintenance is a lot more expensive.
That's literally what I did. My 997 was $35k. It's more expensive to maintain, but overall it's hard to beat the value. The Type-R is probably faster however.
Yeah but ... good luck with the cost of ownership.
Because most people looking at new Honda cars are ok with the maintenance of a new Honda. However, the maintenance of a 50-60k used Porsche sports car is eye-watering and in a totally different league compared to a new Civic/Integra.
do any of them have rear seats?
this is the best in depth analysis out there on the type r , absolutely love understanding the design and engineering thought process because it truly helps you understand and work with the vehicle..as others have said do not apologize for the length or depth of this video…I was dreading the end.
Great garage analysis, but your focus on historical context and how it makes the driver feel are standouts. I’m sick of comparisons based on paper statistics which can be meaningless in the real world. It’s the character of the driving experience that matters. Thanks for catering honestly to car enthusiasts!! Hats off to both of you. 😊
Mark drives my realistic dream car. And he deserves it. Thank you for the premium content over all these years.
Thanks for voting my EN your COTY, looking forward to you driving the re-freshed version for 2024 where they've addressed some issues and if there's someone that will be able to tell, its YOU two👍👍
Actually what you described as a "boring" segment, is my favourite part in your videos!
The AI bits get me every time 😂 they’re so good. Great video guys!
Mark, you don't know how much I appreciate the time and effort you and Jack take to break down each car to a quantum level! Please keep going!
Excellent video as usual. It's a shame that other capable hothatches never made it to the US, but it would be amazing to watch your review on a Megane RS 275 Trophy, SEAT Cupra 290, Golf GTi Clubsport S, etc.
Please never ever believe you guys bore us with any information. It is that reason why we watch your guys technical videos that are so different than many others! Really appreciate all the work you guys put into each video. Please never change it!
Thanks for this video and the real world perspective of weight and power. People have to factor in their specific needs, wants, location, price, knowledge, support, driver confidence, etc. There aren't a lot of truly bad "sporty" cars out right now, probably because there are so few. But what sporty cars there are, they all seem to have a specific attribute that caters to a specific type of person. I see people defending all of them in one way or another. At the end of the day, if you enjoy it, then that's all that matters.
Having owned multiple Subies (GM9 2.5 RS, SG Forester XT, GD STI, GV WRX, ZC BRZ), I currently enjoy my GT Impreza for what it is and it's still fun to drive on twisty roads. I also enjoy taking my Crosstrek in backcountry territory. Use a vehicle for its intended purpose and don't wish it was something it wasn't meant to be. Make it into what you want or buy something that already is that thing you want. I think either way is going to cost you something, and that's just the state of things at this moment.
Keep up the good work, brothers!
Love my FL5, best daily that IMO, especially now that they can be had for MSRP.
The start of that in-car session was hilarious, lol. I love the wheels on this car - I get Porsche-like vibes from them. I tried to recreate the same vibe with a set of black Rotiform FLG's on my WRX... but I think the Honda designers nailed the styling on these wheels for the price.
When you mention the sound at around 23 minutes, I've been in faster cars for sure, but the sound the k20 makes in my 8th si is just such an incredible noise and makes me so happy. Forced induction is cool because of the extra power, but nothing beats the sound of an N/A setup.
Fantastic video, Mark. It could have been longer. I can see why the Type R is actually worth $45k or so. My only problem with this car is availability. Even the Si is hard to find in my area.
10 minutes of video, with a total of 4 minutes about the actual ownership experience. Nice.
Replace the ADS module in Type R with the module in Type S. you can overcome the damping problem.
The type r is my dream car. Many people think that’s dumb but I would love to daily drive one of them.
I bought the 2017 Honda Civic Si cause of u ! 25 k back in 2017
This video perfectly encapsulates why I subscribed and continue to watch every upload, never change Mark
Great video Mark! I love the Type R. I wasn’t able to find anything without a high markup and ended up with an Elantra N, which I also adore. Coming from a B9 A4 it’s been so fun… but I still have my eye on Type Rs.
The N is way more fun to drive and more livable
I have been drooling over the Elantra N... Just wanted a manual transmission car, seems like I need to get a sports car to get one these days.
@mharro88 So true, I don't know how they did it but with the N they nailed the driving dynamics at an affordable price no less.
Love that you guys keep hammering down on the cost of new cars. It blows my mind seeing so many high figure cars on the road, and knowing that they can't or shouldn't be able to afford it. With inflation, everyone is accepting it as the new norm, but go visit any dealership right now and look at the normal daily driving cars going well below MSRP.
I love my FL5. While it has fwd limitations and its a bit slower then few other cars i have. It alot of fun to drive and out the box handles great.
Only drawback is dealership experience outside of that its alot of car for the sticker price.
Its alot better with few mods as well :)
Somehow you're able to put the feelings we have driving Hondas into words like no one else can. Thanks for the insight! (No pun intended)
Hey, great job, Mark. Looks like this car is a blast! Happy Holidays to you guys
Great video!! Happy FK8 owner here for 3 years. Track days are a blast and it’s been perfect over 40k miles… brings a grin to my face every time I take the wheel. Honda nailed it with the Type R IMO.
Great video, appreciate all the shout outs to the little 2300lb miata that could and still tries to exist today in the world of CVT SUVs. In 2020 my budget was $25k, the miata was my stretch purchase at $29k. Veloster N and Civic Si were my other new car options.
$45k Type R would be a dream to own. Would be interested if market cools down or the new
When the prelude comes out, it will likely be around $50k
I own a 2020 RF and a 2023 FL5. I love the Miata and was afraid the FL5 would make me fall out of love of the Miata. Have owned the FL5 for almost 1 year now and my love for Miata is getting stronger with every street drive. I believe it is the most enjoyable sports car for public roads regardless of price so enjoy that Miata while you can.
Even a $30k car feels like a stretch for me right now, especially with these interest rates. I have a 2020 Camry that was $24k. A base model Corolla Cross is like $25-27k where I live. I wanna try something different now, but it seems like the budget options are very few now compared to only a few years ago.
To echo what many others have said, these are the kinds of videos that set your channel apart from all the others. Well done.
Considering everything (I mean literally everything incl. pricing point, markup and a bit of novelty due to a lack of supply), I really don't believe this beats Elantra N.
Elantra N is maybe comparable to Type R for normal drivers but you canot go Nordschleife style beating at all.
Isnt the elantra n quite good on the track? @@ghostridertom
I agree 100%
and even gets warranty coverage on track use@@OldeDeus
watch misha drive the type r on the nordschleife, he literally couldnt drive the entire lap because it overheated. honda still hasn't fixed the well know overheating issue which begs the question how much of a performance car is it? @@ghostridertom
Great video Mark, love the detail and the passion. I bought an FL5 in January, and for various reasons I have not (yet) been able to drive it as much as I had planned. But I totally agree with your summary that it’s a car you can enjoy at any speed, for how it feels and what it stands for. Every time I get in, even just to go to the supermarket or pick my daughter from school, it’s still a special experience. For that reason, it’s a car I plan to keep hold off for a long time.
I hope you do another update on the CTR in future. Your perspective on these cars resonates with me more than anyone else on here.
You need to really love this car to make it worth the purchase. There are so many purchases in the used market for the same price that deliver much more value.
I have a 20 year old wrx that paces with these things pretty well
@@senseicorey9979if you're looking at performance only, this is indeed a horrible choice. I bought mine because it's also an incredible daily that I don't have to worry about. I have enough cars that I have to fix shit on lol
like what?
ZL1, srt, scatpack, gt500, etc etc 😂
Kinda sad these cars are going away and this is great so I can share with my kids for a new to them point of view. So well done!
I wanted a Type-R bc I remember Honda to be so good and the gearbox is amazing! Due to the mark-upss at the car-scalping stealerships I was not willing to pay for a car I would have to finance. Even the SI was marked up to 35k bc the stealership said it is exclusive in the MT model. I told them they need an "exclusive" buyer and forgot all about the Type-R and the 50k I wasn't letting go of for a fwd car. Ilooked at my options and considered the Golf GTI and found a car called the Elantra N that was peculiar. After test-driving the Elantra N I never made it to my appointment at the VW dealership. I bought my Elantra N for 34k and drove it home that day. The infotainment display , steering wheel, and exhaust sound are as good as any car I have seen. It makes me forget that the car isn't as pretty as the Type-R.
The Honda dealership followed-up with me a month later wondering why I wasn't nervously pining and crawling back to them to pay 5k over sticker for an SI and I told them I got a better car that cost less than what they wanted for their "exclusive" car. I have a CN7 that I couldn't be happier with. I gap Golf GTI and make between 300-320 whp running 95 octane fuel with nothing but a tune, sparkplugs and lower motor mount for mods. I will have the car paid off next year after two years of ownership and saved 16k plus the interest I would have paid financing a Type-R. We will see how I like my CN7 next year after two years of ownership, but don't laugh, it's paid for.
Isn't it weird being treated like a peasant at a Honda dealership? I say this as an S2K owner. If I don't drive the S2K and park it up front they don't treat me like a serious buyer. I found the Acura dealer (for the Integra Type S) much nicer, probably since their brand is entering a bit of a tenuous position.