I'll comment on the river. At low stakes some situations really are cookie-cutter poker. Turn donk and bet on the River by Hero isn't getting raised by a set, or TP with 4 to a straight on the board. This is a fold regardless of "pot odds"...
on the turn with 15 outs to improve to what would most likely be the nuts with the exception of villain having AJ or TJ... wouldnt it be positive EV to bet anything below say 150?
Well if you are talking about making a block bet that sets the price and never gets raised, I suppose you could make that case. However all bets that you make are like betting into a dry side pot. You are betting $250 to win an extra $250 or 1:1 where you would need at least 50% equity. That assumes that there is not fold equity.
Yea bet small on river like 150. Villain jams then think about folding. It would be a tough fold tho. Bluff jams are incredibly rare at low stakes so most likely he got it. Depends on villains play style if i just see him play straightfoward never bluffing i would give him credit for J10 or even 106. At best we’re chopping a 6.
At 11:20 Bart makes the point that you can’t check the river hoping for a bluff because what bluffs does V have? I agree with that. But if V never has a bluff when we check to him, he surely has even less bluff raises when we bet $300. In which case, can’t we fold the river? We’re only beating a bluff.
All depends on V players profile. Some people believe that a set, even 2 pairs (?) - is a winning hand, and they jam it. So, folding to river jam here, would probably be wrong. However, if V is a solid player, then yes, fold second Nuts and don't look back! So, poker is a tricky animal that requires a permanent maintenance. 😂
Two thoughts, 1st it's been my experience that people love J10 even unsooted. My other thought is don't we want to bet our nut flush draws? I like the donk lead as it's our best chance at building a pot since flush draws coming in tend to kill a lot of action. If we balance our donk turn leads with made hands, draws and bluffs we get paid more by weaker hands when we hit and set up river plays to fold out stronger but not nutted hands when we miss. Am I way off here?
A drawing hand OOP donk lead into 2 opps is not my way of play. I see that as a source of troubles, that I'm voluntarily putting myself in. 🙄 a) in order to lead here I supposed to heave some sort of reading my opponent's hands. I do not see that's the case here; b) if someone raises me, I'm in true troubles with my drawing hand. ; c) $65 max bet is the optimum risk in this particular scenario. (H bet $140 ). d) with 2 opps and OOP, the best way is if seeing cheap/free river card. If I bet turn and miss river, then the only way to win the pot is to bluff into 2 opponents who bet/called every streets!! _Last EDIT: 3 min after original post_
Yes, You typically want to build a pot with the nut flush draw but at the same time betting the naked nut flush draw is a bluff- you’re trying to get the villain to fold not to call you. Therefore check raising makes more sense than a donk bet because it looks stronger and will get more folds.
@@Jackson-kv4gh yes, like Bart always talks about: almost all bets still have to fall into a purpose category. We acknowledge you have ZERO fold equity against anything of significance donking out, so a bluff is terrible, and you can’t bet for value here at all Hero’s confusion about not wanting hands ahead of him to check behind rather than getting value out of him on the turn says it all
I think probably in his mind, on the turn lead he’s turning his hand into a bluff. Thinking he won’t get raised very often, and will increase his fold equity on the subsequent river barrel. This is probably why he talked about AQ checking back. You could say he’s overbluffing, sure. But a turn lead does have purpose for both bluffs and value
@@bret1575 all im saying is a lead almost never makes any sense. You just get better hands to call and worse hands to fold, the opposite of what you want.
@@ticenits1926 that’s why i said he would be overbluffing. But … in the case that you DID want to bluff. You’re gonna have to fire 2 to get AQ to fold.. usually. If turn checks thru and you bluff river, a good ace will snap Sometimes when you’re bluffing, the 1st barrel you’re pretty sure fold equity is minimum. But you need to do it to get the fold equity you need for the 2nd barrel
@@ticenits1926 with this hand a turn lead doesn’t make much sense. But I think bret’s point is that some hands might want to lead turn for value (eg two pair) and some as a bluff (baby flush draws). I agree though that I prefer a check raise generally
I don't know. Hand seems bungled on every street. I get the pot odds argument on the river, but like Bart said regarding checking to induce, what bluffs can villian have? Especially at 1/3.
A suggestion to Bart: After every video you should make a short summary where you explain which part of the video pertains to the title. So in this video for example, you would explain what's the tricky strategy that will leade to more profit.
maybe I'm just a nit but my instinct is to fold the river. pot odds is one thing but at 1/3 I don't think people are finding good bluffs in this spot, and I think even a lot of 6s are not raising. its just so so easy for hero to have the nuts here, how do you raise for value without the nuts? or try a suicidal bluff here?
Is this a stealth reason to avoid ace with kicker 6-8? Because you might end up with a sucker straight? Because I can't really find a fold anywhere in the hand except preflop.
I fold this hand for sure. Sure ur getting 5:1 but from opponent’s perspective the one liner plus the ace out there makes it enticing to call. The only bluffs are q10 JQ suited. No two pair or sets take this line.
Great channel. Aside from the topic in this video (which was very accurate), what do you think about Americas Card Room? I reside in New York State so online poker is very limited. I've been playing ACR for years. Never large stakes. Mostly low and micro tournaments and some cash. I will play about 5-7 tournaments a week. I will reach the bubble quite often and even min-cash. However I never go beyond min-cashing. Before the bubble I will have a commanding chip lead, within the top 10% of the field. Yet near the bubble I ALWAYS begin to lose. It never seems to fail. I also play live poker on the weekends with positive results (to the point where I have considered quitting my job to play full time) and study poker just about daily. So this all leads back to ACR and whether or not something shady is going on when players get near the money. Has anyone ever analyzed hand histories like they did with Ultimate Bet and Full Tilt Poker to see whether or not certain users are winning with sketchy hands all too often? Just curious if you know anything about ACR. Thanks for all the videos and info you provide
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj yeah ok? I didn’t say it wasn’t. Im saying sometimes its not productive to use the thinking that he “shouldn’t “ raise with this or that.
I love this channel so much, just wish CLP didn't have to use such clickbait titles and thumbnails. Hope the meetup in Philly goes well Bart. I think the Uzbek restaurant you mentioned is the same one I used to go to with my family, one of my favorites.
In poker 1 mistake (which means: the very first one! 😂) always leads to another one. So, after A6 calling PF, everything else is doomed to fail. (sometimes the luck hits, so people had a wrong ideas).
Although I might disagree with the claim of folding this particular hand…the principle is sound. This a bit of chaos and complexity theory applied to poker . To speak even more to the initial conditions…NLHE is subject to the 80/20 rule and if you’re not #1 or #2 at the table you’re wasting your time and money. Most of what determines whether you lose or win that night is determined before you’re even dealt a hand. Said another way, having one special player at a table isn’t good enough reason to sit unless you’re better than the other 7 or 8
@@pot_kivach160 absolutely not, The implied odds of a hand like this are far too great to pass up in a multi-way pot. The only detriment to drawing hands is playing out of position, which is why hero became lost and started randomly clicking buttons on the turn.
What should hero do if he bets about $150 on the river which Bart said is a better value bet and then gets jammed on for about $500 more? That's a tough spot
theres just so many overplayed worse value hands here from the HJ open that i just cant see folding BASICALLY the nuts here. it'd be annoying but im still calling w not much thought even w that price.
I'm not that excited about the turn card. JT is a huge part of people's ranges in this spot. And I actually think a lot of 1/3 players (area dependent) will fold hands like AK and AQ on the turn when you blast out, specifically because you are repping JT in their view.
Yea i might fold Ax,could be up against a made straight or even two pair.Also even if the guy is bluffing there are so many horrible river cards that maybe its best to just fold instead of calling hoping for a brick and then hoping he'll check it
My take up to the flop is that A98 with a back door is a pretty big home run for the hero. I really don’t imagine 8’s/9’s limping preflop especially on a straddle. I believe an A would’ve also raised. So the only hand currently that I really see that may be problematic is 8/9…. But once again I feel like 8/9 suited should be raising considering it’s a straddled pot. Just my opinion….. let’s see how wrong I was by watching the rest of the video
@Hoang Truong I like a call better heads up. With two additional people in a hand I want to isolate or just save myself the trouble of having to hit big on the flop. A call multi way IMO just puts you into a situation more often than not you are behind in anything but a flush.
Interesting hand that I wouldve played very differently.. Id probably fold the flop a lot, but If I decide to call, this turn is never a lead.. maybe a check-raise against a very particular range of sizing (like 60 to 75$), but that's the only way to play this turn agressively.. Id probably end up check-calling turn and river but Im not happy about the situation on the river if villain goes big (which I assume he would)
Sorry , I disagree with your bart, I like the turn lead as played bcos villain (hj) will check this card back a lot, and the lead is what sets up the river bluff which hj will fold aq , an, A10, ak etc, or hero can hit like approx 20 outs
I am starting to object to the term "Donk Leading", Bart. The move is very tricky and, if applied correctly like you suggested yourself, of much higher level than the term implies. We all know what the game is about; taking chips from the others. There are players with more skills and have a better understanding of the game and are taking more chips than the lesser skilled players. But these terms like "fish" or "donkleading" not only are they often mis used by players who don't understand the action of the other and brush it off as a "donk move" , but it also implies a certain disdain or some level of disrespect towards the players that ultimately are the ones that allow the game to continue and not get "stale maty" like in chess. I feel these terms do the game more harm than good.
Yes ive thought for years what is the problem with leading out into a PFR on flop or turn,you know on certain flops the pfr will have whiffed and just check it back,if youre SB you give everyone a free card,people say its too hard to balance but is it really?Bluff sometimes,value bet sometimes,bet medium hands . I feel if studied properly the "donking" can be a powerful weapon as others havent learned how to react to it. Same with limping (as Dnegs does a lot of now) and raising pre to non standard sizes "ohh 4X raise,how 2004" Maybe just call it "leading" or "jabbing" a jab bet sounds ok😄
PREFLOP POLICE PREFLOP POLICE WEE OOOO WEEE OOO 🚨🚨🚨 THREE BET OR FOLD PREFLOP, GOT YOURSELF IN TROUBLE BEING PASSIVE WITH A WEAK ACE WEEE OOOO WEEE OOO
I'll comment on the river. At low stakes some situations really are cookie-cutter poker. Turn donk and bet on the River by Hero isn't getting raised by a set, or TP with 4 to a straight on the board. This is a fold regardless of "pot odds"...
Im only at the flop action but folding here is absolutely not out of the question and wouldnt be a mistake here at these games Im pretty sure
I've led on turns like this alot and would get really bad river spots. Really solid advice to check raise
on the turn with 15 outs to improve to what would most likely be the nuts with the exception of villain having AJ or TJ... wouldnt it be positive EV to bet anything below say 150?
Well if you are talking about making a block bet that sets the price and never gets raised, I suppose you could make that case. However all bets that you make are like betting into a dry side pot. You are betting $250 to win an extra $250 or 1:1 where you would need at least 50% equity. That assumes that there is not fold equity.
@@CrushlivePoker thanks... overlooked that aspect.
Yea bet small on river like 150. Villain jams then think about folding. It would be a tough fold tho. Bluff jams are incredibly rare at low stakes so most likely he got it. Depends on villains play style if i just see him play straightfoward never bluffing i would give him credit for J10 or even 106. At best we’re chopping a 6.
At 11:20 Bart makes the point that you can’t check the river hoping for a bluff because what bluffs does V have?
I agree with that.
But if V never has a bluff when we check to him, he surely has even less bluff raises when we bet $300. In which case, can’t we fold the river?
We’re only beating a bluff.
good point
All depends on V players profile. Some people believe that a set, even 2 pairs (?) - is a winning hand, and they jam it. So, folding to river jam here, would probably be wrong.
However, if V is a solid player, then yes, fold second Nuts and don't look back!
So, poker is a tricky animal that requires a permanent maintenance.
😂
JT was one of the first hands that come to mind that he would raise pre and bet into three people with.
Two thoughts, 1st it's been my experience that people love J10 even unsooted.
My other thought is don't we want to bet our nut flush draws? I like the donk lead as it's our best chance at building a pot since flush draws coming in tend to kill a lot of action. If we balance our donk turn leads with made hands, draws and bluffs we get paid more by weaker hands when we hit and set up river plays to fold out stronger but not nutted hands when we miss.
Am I way off here?
A drawing hand OOP donk lead into 2 opps is not my way of play. I see that as a source of troubles, that I'm voluntarily putting myself in. 🙄 a) in order to lead here I supposed to heave some sort of reading my opponent's hands. I do not see that's the case here; b) if someone raises me, I'm in true troubles with my drawing hand. ; c) $65 max bet is the optimum risk in this particular scenario. (H bet $140 ). d) with 2 opps and OOP, the best way is if seeing cheap/free river card. If I bet turn and miss river, then the only way to win the pot is to bluff into 2 opponents who bet/called every streets!!
_Last EDIT: 3 min after original post_
Yes, You typically want to build a pot with the nut flush draw but at the same time betting the naked nut flush draw is a bluff- you’re trying to get the villain to fold not to call you. Therefore check raising makes more sense than a donk bet because it looks stronger and will get more folds.
@@Jackson-kv4gh yes, like Bart always talks about: almost all bets still have to fall into a purpose category. We acknowledge you have ZERO fold equity against anything of significance donking out, so a bluff is terrible, and you can’t bet for value here at all
Hero’s confusion about not wanting hands ahead of him to check behind rather than getting value out of him on the turn says it all
Unsuited*
6:34 Oh no not the scaredy cat bet.
I think probably in his mind, on the turn lead he’s turning his hand into a bluff. Thinking he won’t get raised very often, and will increase his fold equity on the subsequent river barrel. This is probably why he talked about AQ checking back.
You could say he’s overbluffing, sure. But a turn lead does have purpose for both bluffs and value
You can't bluff and value bet at the same time. And when you're holding top pair you certainly don't need to semi bluff.
@@ticenits1926 to the former, no shit really? lmaoo
@@bret1575 all im saying is a lead almost never makes any sense. You just get better hands to call and worse hands to fold, the opposite of what you want.
@@ticenits1926 that’s why i said he would be overbluffing. But … in the case that you DID want to bluff. You’re gonna have to fire 2 to get AQ to fold.. usually. If turn checks thru and you bluff river, a good ace will snap
Sometimes when you’re bluffing, the 1st barrel you’re pretty sure fold equity is minimum. But you need to do it to get the fold equity you need for the 2nd barrel
@@ticenits1926 with this hand a turn lead doesn’t make much sense. But I think bret’s point is that some hands might want to lead turn for value (eg two pair) and some as a bluff (baby flush draws).
I agree though that I prefer a check raise generally
What would be a good sizing for a squeeze pre? $120?
I don't know. Hand seems bungled on every street. I get the pot odds argument on the river, but like Bart said regarding checking to induce, what bluffs can villian have? Especially at 1/3.
Always happy when Barts gives content!!! Thanks, man.
Fold pre
A suggestion to Bart: After every video you should make a short summary where you explain which part of the video pertains to the title.
So in this video for example, you would explain what's the tricky strategy that will leade to more profit.
There are notes on the time-bar at the bottom of the video screen. You can see the section of the video where he discusses the strategy.
Thats what the time codes are for also I put a link in the description to the relevant information.
Liking the new title formats 👍
Parx is where all the action is at... Borgata is just 4 tables and Private game
maybe I'm just a nit but my instinct is to fold the river. pot odds is one thing but at 1/3 I don't think people are finding good bluffs in this spot, and I think even a lot of 6s are not raising. its just so so easy for hero to have the nuts here, how do you raise for value without the nuts? or try a suicidal bluff here?
Yeah it’s hard to give V credit for a bluff here and even most clueless fish get a bit scared by a one card straight possibility.
There's some hands and situations and the way the hand was played which forces you to have to pay the hand off
keep up the great work broski
Is this a stealth reason to avoid ace with kicker 6-8? Because you might end up with a sucker straight? Because I can't really find a fold anywhere in the hand except preflop.
Yea especially the turn card giving the nut flush. If hero bets small like 150 n villain jams then theres a small chance u can fold.
why's flop a call?
@@pot_kivach160 backdoors stuff and villain could have worse than an ace which in this case he had. if the 7 or Q didn't come we wouldof won this hand
@@HoangTruong-vk7ek
Ace 6-8 you end up with a suck everything. Sucker low pair, sucker kicker, sucker straight…
I fold this hand for sure. Sure ur getting 5:1 but from opponent’s perspective the one liner plus the ace out there makes it enticing to call. The only bluffs are q10 JQ suited. No two pair or sets take this line.
Great channel. Aside from the topic in this video (which was very accurate), what do you think about Americas Card Room? I reside in New York State so online poker is very limited. I've been playing ACR for years. Never large stakes. Mostly low and micro tournaments and some cash. I will play about 5-7 tournaments a week. I will reach the bubble quite often and even min-cash. However I never go beyond min-cashing. Before the bubble I will have a commanding chip lead, within the top 10% of the field. Yet near the bubble I ALWAYS begin to lose. It never seems to fail. I also play live poker on the weekends with positive results (to the point where I have considered quitting my job to play full time) and study poker just about daily. So this all leads back to ACR and whether or not something shady is going on when players get near the money. Has anyone ever analyzed hand histories like they did with Ultimate Bet and Full Tilt Poker to see whether or not certain users are winning with sketchy hands all too often? Just curious if you know anything about ACR. Thanks for all the videos and info you provide
I don't know if i would had expected HJ to be there with JT at the end, as they raised pre-flop.
Why though? You just assume they are going to follow the “rules?” All this was working fine until i started playing in Texas😂😢
@@DoTheHuman JTs is a standard open from the HJ. And even JTo isn’t way out there.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj yeah ok? I didn’t say it wasn’t. Im saying sometimes its not productive to use the thinking that he “shouldn’t “ raise with this or that.
@@DoTheHuman man he’s talking to op chill
@@danielmccree3195 As he literally put my name and was talking t0 me. ok then.
I like the lead. It increases the chances of you being paid off if a diamond comes.
The lead is terrible, it increases the chance of you paying off if a diamond doesn't come
Diamond only comes 18% of the time, the other 82% of the time you’re bloating a pot when you’re behind
I'm check jamming turn a lot.
I love this channel so much, just wish CLP didn't have to use such clickbait titles and thumbnails.
Hope the meetup in Philly goes well Bart. I think the Uzbek restaurant you mentioned is the same one I used to go to with my family, one of my favorites.
In poker 1 mistake (which means: the very first one! 😂) always leads to another one. So, after A6 calling PF, everything else is doomed to fail. (sometimes the luck hits, so people had a wrong ideas).
Supposed to fold a suited ace there?
@@well.thy.one. yes.
@@pot_kivach160 wild
Although I might disagree with the claim of folding this particular hand…the principle is sound.
This a bit of chaos and complexity theory applied to poker .
To speak even more to the initial conditions…NLHE is subject to the 80/20 rule and if you’re not #1 or #2 at the table you’re wasting your time and money.
Most of what determines whether you lose or win that night is determined before you’re even dealt a hand.
Said another way, having one special player at a table isn’t good enough reason to sit unless you’re better than the other 7 or 8
@@pot_kivach160 absolutely not, The implied odds of a hand like this are far too great to pass up in a multi-way pot. The only detriment to drawing hands is playing out of position, which is why hero became lost and started randomly clicking buttons on the turn.
What should hero do if he bets about $150 on the river which Bart said is a better value bet and then gets jammed on for about $500 more? That's a tough spot
theres just so many overplayed worse value hands here from the HJ open that i just cant see folding BASICALLY the nuts here. it'd be annoying but im still calling w not much thought even w that price.
@@trace8617 overplayed hands like what? Even most total fish get cautious with sets/two pairs on boards with 1 card to a straight.
That might be an easier call than the actual situation. Which is to fold this river.
I'm not that excited about the turn card. JT is a huge part of people's ranges in this spot. And I actually think a lot of 1/3 players (area dependent) will fold hands like AK and AQ on the turn when you blast out, specifically because you are repping JT in their view.
Yea i might fold Ax,could be up against a made straight or even two pair.Also even if the guy is bluffing there are so many horrible river cards that maybe its best to just fold instead of calling hoping for a brick and then hoping he'll check it
From what I have seen alot of 1/3 player
If hero 3-bets preflop to about $105, then he profits about 50 dollars instead of getting stacked.
Bold of you to assume J10 folds.
I'm guessing villains hand before showdown 🤔
AT 🤤
good turn check 🤷
My take up to the flop is that A98 with a back door is a pretty big home run for the hero. I really don’t imagine 8’s/9’s limping preflop especially on a straddle. I believe an A would’ve also raised. So the only hand currently that I really see that may be problematic is 8/9…. But once again I feel like 8/9 suited should be raising considering it’s a straddled pot. Just my opinion….. let’s see how wrong I was by watching the rest of the video
It wasn’t a limped pot?
HJ raise preflop so he can easily have 88, 99.
88 and 99 limp like half the time at 1/3
The only limp was UTG. HJ opened and everyone else flatted.
I think preflop its a 3 bet or fold situation. You are basically playing for the flush. That many players someone has to have a better A.
calling is fine yes we wouldnt be happy on ace high flops bc someone has an better ace but we will cooler AK AQ on A6x boards or 66x boards
@Hoang Truong I like a call better heads up. With two additional people in a hand I want to isolate or just save myself the trouble of having to hit big on the flop. A call multi way IMO just puts you into a situation more often than not you are behind in anything but a flush.
Interesting hand that I wouldve played very differently.. Id probably fold the flop a lot, but If I decide to call, this turn is never a lead.. maybe a check-raise against a very particular range of sizing (like 60 to 75$), but that's the only way to play this turn agressively.. Id probably end up check-calling turn and river but Im not happy about the situation on the river if villain goes big (which I assume he would)
You would call pre flop with an ace...flop an ace...and then fold to a bet? Might want to rethink that
@@vilerecordings475 yes I would, and you should think about the fact that it's in the realm of possibilities
And this weeks live chat mega donkey is....Robert Wilson!!!!! Congratulations you fish !! Keep uo the good work!
I’m folding flop after a bet and call
Sorry , I disagree with your bart, I like the turn lead as played bcos villain (hj) will check this card back a lot, and the lead is what sets up the river bluff which hj will fold aq , an, A10, ak etc, or hero can hit like approx 20 outs
5d should came out
Is the caller Jesse Pinkman?
Only problem was the 5 was not a diamond.
910hh 910ss are bluffs. 810dd or 810ss. QJdd. Q10 with suits especially diamonds. Those are all bluffs. Not a lot tho ya
Villain could be turning a10 into a bluff
This is poker. You are going to run into it at times. Big pot for a 1/3 game.
I am starting to object to the term "Donk Leading", Bart. The move is very tricky and, if applied correctly like you suggested yourself, of much higher level than the term implies. We all know what the game is about; taking chips from the others. There are players with more skills and have a better understanding of the game and are taking more chips than the lesser skilled players. But these terms like "fish" or "donkleading" not only are they often mis used by players who don't understand the action of the other and brush it off as a "donk move" , but it also implies a certain disdain or some level of disrespect towards the players that ultimately are the ones that allow the game to continue and not get "stale maty" like in chess. I feel these terms do the game more harm than good.
Yes ive thought for years what is the problem with leading out into a PFR on flop or turn,you know on certain flops the pfr will have whiffed and just check it back,if youre SB you give everyone a free card,people say its too hard to balance but is it really?Bluff sometimes,value bet sometimes,bet medium hands .
I feel if studied properly the "donking" can be a powerful weapon as others havent learned how to react to it.
Same with limping (as Dnegs does a lot of now) and raising pre to non standard sizes "ohh 4X raise,how 2004"
Maybe just call it "leading" or "jabbing" a jab bet sounds ok😄
@@Gos1234567 I like jabbing. Leans in to the boxing analogy of setting up a KO blow as well.
Take your woke nonsense elsewhere. When Phil Ivey leads into the preflop aggressor, it's still described as donking.
To think that BART would succumb to using such a clickbaity title....sick
It’s +EV. What do you expext
Omg how dare he try to get people to watch his videos!!!!!! Fucking SICK!!!!!
In todays world of virtually non-existent attention spans it’s the only way.
Never any clickbait on this channel, no sir
Sound strategy but this example V has the nuts. Anyway, thumbnails are very important and creators work hard.
Learn what and make bank??
12:28 😂
Should not bet the turn
3bet pre and don't lead the turn!
PREFLOP POLICE PREFLOP POLICE WEE OOOO WEEE OOO 🚨🚨🚨
THREE BET OR FOLD PREFLOP, GOT YOURSELF IN TROUBLE BEING PASSIVE WITH A WEAK ACE WEEE OOOO WEEE OOO
Robert Wilson won’t get invited to dinner anytime soon
Lame title might unsubscribe
Anyone else hear the caller as Jessie Pinkman?
Yo this is my own private home game and I will not be bluffed…Bitch!
so whats the secret?