i think its a huge scam they take rake when you take a pot down preflop they even rake the damn blinds like tf, just play cashgame live when rake rules actually make sense
i just played 8000 of 1$ AoF games and EV line is upward and green line is dramaticalllly toward south, badbeating most of the games and -25$, while they rake 80$ from me, ridiculous
Hi, thanks, this is true also in S&G. I have played spin&gold in GG, Im an absolute winner in the microstakes, i have one of the best winrates, and the total amount of money made is 0 (zero). Also the RB has change so i quit the room
Not including rake in the graph is such a sleazy, scammy move. But I guess you don't become the biggest poker site in the world by playing by the rules.
The only reason they became the biggest is cos of the bad press that pokerstars created with their rake back system. If stars hadn't fucked off the pros they'd probably still be the biggest site. Though GGs interface and bells and whistles might have piped them.
All the pros leave the site and the site will die. The rake is unbeatable and even if you do beat the games for 10bb, the only way to beat the game. The variance on that site just seems rigged. I have played poker for 25 years and never seen that type of break even stretch i went thru. In games where players are giving money away. There is room for a new poker site where pros and the raking site can live harmoniously. Bad players will donate, always. Its not enough they have a casino as well. They want all the money. Scum bags
i used to play on ggpoker, did end up making 6bb/100 over 200K hands last year but this year i am losing 2bb/100. I live in belgium and rakeback is illegal here so I had to decide to stop playing all together. it's just not worth it when the absolute top players only make ~2bb/100 and you get raked 12! Just feels like you're a slave for the pokersite basically. I think to be truely fair the pokersites should rake way less like maybe 1% or 2% max I was a high volume player playing 4 rush and cash tables at once most of time sometimes just 2 so playing between 500 and 1000 hands/hour at 25NL which means they were making between 15$-30$/hour on my play alone which is just disgusting
Are you sure you're an absolute top player because I can guarantee you I two big blinds per 100 isn't really good or even six big blindfold on it. Even that good at low stakes midstakes even One door two door making six big blinds per 100 is kind of okay I guess. But on gg poker And love though that's good in the world. If you're on low stakes and you're making two big blinds per 100, you're doing something f****** wrong. Sorry for swearing because I think I was playing five $0.10 15,000 hands. I was making 44 big blinds per 100 just last week
@@MultiSteven2011 bro, what are you even talking about? He said GG is making 15-30 bucks off of him in rake per hour, playing only two 25NL-tables. That's absolutely disgusting, pure theft! 🤢
Is this Ontario or global pool? In Ontario it’s cash back not rake back, even in 200nl still paying almost 10bb/100 you need to be absolutely smashing the games by like 18-25bb/100 for it to be worth it
that's exactly how the global numbers look like?! even worse i think. don't forget the jackpot fee, which you will likely never see back in your life. you're raked 3bb/hand if you're playing a pot worth >30bb, and that jp fee is not included in the rakeback calculations, which are fake of course, because of their opaque pvi system. the sample sizes he's showing are too small. i've been a pro for 15 years, i've had 100 buyins under ev on pokerstars back in the day at 2/4 nlhe over a sample of less than 200k hands. variance is brutal. but he doesn't need to show graphs, it's obvious that it's almost impossible to beat GG, if you're not obliterating your competition. the stakes you're used to beating on other sites, you won't be able to beat on GG. you have to drop down at least one limit, so you're far ahead of your competition skill wise.
Does Ontario have BBJ ? If so, that also contibutes to rake, but it's supposed to be a wash in the long run. Also, besides the leaderboard, we should take the gg cares and flip outs into rakeback.
I believe the way to approach micros, is purely in terms of practise, maybe for a live game where making some $ is actually possible, or to become so good (and still losing after rake) that you can move up where the rake is not as punishing. Still it's disgusting and a bitter pill to swallow when every single $ you made playing poker went to the site. I know the feeling and share your outrage.
Nah you could still build you br with micros if you have a good rakeback deal. for example 40% rakeback it's like 5bb/100 if they are taking 12bb/100, so you could easily beat the rake and go up in stakes, that's what im doing rn, im beating nl10 for 13bb/100 before rake, with a rakeback of 40%, im barely up in winnings but I have like 2000bb in rakeback
My BR would show that im winning and consistently moving up, its just they take so much its almost not worth it. Especially with PVI choosing who gets raked more, high volume players such as myself get demolished by the rake system. Around my 40K hand mark I also believe my PVI reached the ultimate low thus there was a rapid change in my overall w/r even though my BR continued to climb as apposed to the HM3 graph.
yeah, I also have a similar experience. I play 5-card PLO. My graph shows I am up $1200 playing PLO25 over 29k hands. Doing the calculations that is around 16.5BB/100. In reality I am only up $430 which then becomes less than 1BB/100. Weird huh?
So what I've heard and experienced is that they have something called PVI for each person, which decreases the amount of fish points you get per 1$ raked. If you're PVI is 1, then you'd get 100 points for 1$ raked, but if it's 0.7, you only get 70 points. It's scammy that they don't tell you about that and they give different PVIs to each person playing. I kinda get the feeling they're putting down your PVI once your winning and put it up once your losing, so it's a thing they do to rake the pros more, but they let the PVI at 1 for the recs.
I think you have to keep in mind about the daily leaderboards, especially the higher stakes, some pay out 270-700$ daily for first place. this might be worth it to grind it out
I have played poker online since almost day one. Started in 2004, so around 20 years. I have seen a lot of sites and networks come and go. In that entire time GG is the only site I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.
Great breakdown video buddy can i ask a question about your total profit from all these hands/stakes you did slighty beat the 12 bb rake at 25nl what in terms of bb/100 did you get back in rakeback? GG claims 50% rakeback is achievable on there site but this includes leaderboards and badbeat jackpots did you have any bbjs? Ive read that 250k hands on average will produce 2 bbjs and of course loads of bbjs where you happened to be at a table when one went off you may have been unlucky in your sample. The rush and cash tables are raked at 8bb/100 and because of the massive amount of hands per hour you play the bbjs come in quite frequently for example playing 4 tables of 50nl depending on the amount of players in the pool you normally have a 20%-30% of being at a table if a bbj does happen Im currently losing on GG but over the month or so ive played ive been at a table when a bbj has gone off 5 times and had a full bbj once ive played about 80k hands if i was beating the rake slightly like you or perhaps slightly losing id still be printing money
@@antonycostantine2457 no the rakeback is from amount of points generated, you generate less points if youre a winning player from PVI as low as 0.1 or 10x less than you should be generating
@@antonycostantine2457 gg have a sistem diferent, they give more or less rakeback against your hability, if you are beter, less rakeback, PVI or something like this.
@@antonycostantine2457 no the PVI system means winnings players generate less points than they actually should taking them longer to rank up for a spin or just lower cashback in general
The tournaments are beatable. Crushable, actually... This is the case with other poker rooms too. And it's funny because you complain about Holdem. In PLO the rake is even worse. Just forget about cash games and go play MTTs.
96k hands in 70 days playing non-zoom is kinda crazy. I think if you focused on quality instead of quantity you would do much better, 3-4 tables of Rush Cash IMO. Also reccomend posting your problem on 2+2 they probably got a solution. Take care.
Why is that crazy ? A bit more than 1k hands per day. There's nothing crazy about that. Secondly, he's crushing the stakes. The rake is insane. My question is, is that only for Ontario, CA or worldwide ?
@@Smokey525 Well depends how many tables his playing, I'm playing 3zoom tables and I can manage 1,2k hands in 2-3h approx, so by my calculation he plays atleast 4h a day for 70 days straight. Seems very consistent pro level grind or degenerate 12 tabel button clicking.
this comment is all about you bragging shit and has nothing to do with the topic. that is: the rake is insane! at 12bb/100 he is crushing these limits. especially since ppl on zoom are much tighter his winrate is even more impressive.
10 seconds in we can see you've been labelled by GG as running lucky. On that scale I've never been higher than 'bad run' and still beat the micros after rake. So stay positive guys, it is achievable
@@willieogrady4703I can't speak for higher stakes but certainly for 2NL and 5NL it is perfectly achievable. I hardly get any rake-back on GG but consistently increase my bankroll. I have some losing days but literally never a losing month, and I'm no crusher just an ABC player
And these are reg tables and not rush and cash? If so thats honestly gross, the softest game with the softest pool but theres no beating that rake unless you just run like god and have 20bb/100 for half a million hands
You don't want to be relying on some site operator to give you your winnings as "cash back" anyway, because then it's only a matter of time before they start siphoning from it till it's totally consumed and you're left with nothing.
So what do you recommend, that point to make a lot of rake minding the gg starts tomorrow with 50% rakeback promo, i think Aof generate it faster, what do you mean
its not 50% rakeback its 50% cashback and PVI means you can make as little as 5% rakeback from that 50% rank, you dont know what youre talking about because GG hides it from players quite well until you do your own calculations
On pokerstars 25nl i am raking 9bb/100 and winrate of 10bb/100 is still achiavable even tho i would say GG is softer. You might not be paying attention on table selection, or you are simply not that good. (Wich is fine, everybody improves over time)
@@tiagos.8424 well.. 11bb winrate pre rake is not that great at 10nl. You can have this winrate even post rake at pokerstars 10nl. Wich would mean pre rake winrate is +20bb/100. He is definetely in top 10% if he is winning, but thats not crushing
@@JohannaEriksson-kv5hy haha I stopped playing GG, picked up stars. Stopped playing in January as I just needed a break, picked up again about two weeks ago.
@@JohannaEriksson-kv5hy I haven’t yet, I know the cap is little bit higher until $50 NL. You don’t get raked pre flop or for the BBJ. I’d imagine it’s not much better than GG but at least 1-2bb/100 saved.
Man, micro stakes isn't for winning money and building roll. It's good to practice or to blow off some steam cheap. You live in a rich country, save some money and go play meaningful stakes, preferably live, or at least not on GG. That being said, I imagine a pro level player would beat 5NL by a lot, but what would be the point?
@@newbiE24 What do you mean? It's an old comment but as I remember the guy rants about not being able to have a positive winrate in the micros. In response I stated it was a stupid thing to be upset about as it really doesn't matter if you can actually win money at 5 or 10NL unless you are from an extremely poor country. It's just a nonsensical goal. There are two valid reasons to play poker, one is to make money and the other is to be a fish and have fun splashing chips. Neither requires having a 3bb winrate at 10NL, even with mass tabling that's like 2 bucks an hour.
What are u talking about... Great video. He summed UP a lot in 5min Point is that GGs advertaising is a lie. They also lie about rakeback. And back in the days you could grind your way with 50$ to high stakes if u were good and today its impossible. Thats the point. Point is also that GG is sickely greeedy. And its good to mention that if you dont have rich parents who will give you 5k roll u are not able to provide money from poker foryourself whatsoever bcs its impossible. And a lot od folks dont understand this and this grinding at micros is sensless even if you were isildur1
@@dinodoljanin2713 GG is a scum site but it doesn't make grinding the micros any less stupid. You say 5k like it was an amount only rich parents can get you. It's a months salary in a Western country. Get a job, save for 3-6 months and you have a 10-15k roll. It might take a bit longer in a poor country, but if you have game you can always get backers.
Yeah that's the plan, I didn't mention PVI in the video but I think I may have been stuck by the PVI hammer pretty hard about 40K hands in. I realized around this mark no matter how much I felt like I was playing good and winning, I was always breaking even at the end of my sessions.
Pokerstars increased all microstakes rake (regular tables) to 5%, with increased rake caps also, which, coupled with the worse rakeback for microstakers, make GG the better deal between the two of them. Granted, GG games are nittier and the preflop rake is quite irritating, but I wouldn't be surprised if, even at 30% RB, GG isn't better for the micro folks.
12bb/100 should be a breakeven winrate at micros after rake. you should be able to beat 10NL on GG at 20+ bb/100, and more as breakeven regs start fleeing the site. most live games can be beat at 30-40bb/100 and i've seen legitimate amateurs beat micros at similar rates over 100k+ hands
exactly what i got after 50k hands. gg Bot just turn off showdown winnings. Its obvious that if you win 40k hand by showdown you cant just loose next 40k hands on SD... Same happened to me. I crushed rush25 on first 15k hands and then they turn off showdown winnings. In my case its just flat next 15k hands. And my game just got better.
you need to get better winrate bro, you probably have massive leaks if u cant beat the rake...on stars its around 10bb/100 as well and there is so many winners on those stakes,, post rake
Its hilarious how you were beating the game, exactly same way i was for huge returns and then were still "beating" the game but not enough to overcome rack. I guarantee there is something happening with their deck randomization. They just call it variance, but its not. GG is forcing the variance to keep the money recycling, so the same players dont have to keep adding funds and they can rake the game to death. Its a Chinese ran company, more the same dirty chinese tricks. This has zero to do with race btw, ita just how the CPP operates.
@@moll3y I would say that $1300 profit in a number of hands that can easily be played in two months or less, at 10NL, is actually excellent! After all, IT'S JUST 10NL!
Well ok, but maybe you didn't have 40% rakeback for the whole time, did you? Maybe you had lower rakeback at first, and leveled it up later? Heck, maybe you even had a periods of time when you played lower volume and so you fallen down to lower rakeback again?
What’s your username? I play 10nl, winning at 9bb/100 debating if it’s even worth it to continue and move up stakes? You are winning more than me and I want to gauge compared to you.
I've never understood "rake is unbeatable". If you are a consistent winner, you are making more money than losing, regardless how much the rake is. You don't pay rake if you fold. I beat 10/25NL at around 15BB/hour and didn't even notice the terrible rake because I was winning
Yes the BR continues to climb. But only as much as the site lets it, I'm still technically winning at a 12BB/100 but on my graphs I'm simply breaking even because I'm only really winning what they're giving me back in rakeback.
@@moll3y It's still better than most other sites if you go by the numbers. Bovada/Ignition the rake is probably close to 10bb/100 if you include tighter ranges, and there is no rakeback. I guarantee on no other site do you make over 1k at 10nl in 100k hands.
i accord that the rake is to high and they are lying about the actual rakeback but you are playing 23/16/7 which means youre probably not the best of your pool and still able to be breakeven before rakeback, which means that these games are of course beatable
@@LeTroisiemeBarrelpost rakeback I was still crushing it. For the average player though, this is not a beatable structure UNLESS you’re grinding the daily leaderboard. I’ve become a lot more sound than I was at the time of this recording, beating poker stars pre take back. I still stand by the fact GG is ‘unbeatable’. The video does come across as nobody can win, of course people can. But the structure is absurd.
Hi Future Future it's 5%. Cap it two big blinds 7.66 bigs per haunted hands at50c/1$ Rush and crash and so your 12.5 goes down to like less than five. So five five* 96 is 488 get better at poker is really checked my roommate big points pro 100 because I haven't done enough sample but I did five thousand hands just before like a week ago I was 30bb/100 before rake so 22.6
IMO if the sites keep stealing players in the CASH game tables, the only option is MTTs. You know Exactly how much you pay in rake on the buy-in. And btw, mtt pools are SOFT in every stake, high stakes included.
I like how this video basically says "I'm the best player in the world" because you are showing yourself breaking even, so for someone to even be a little bit better they'd already beat the game with that sample of yours.
@@moll3y How is that a trip bruh? "Game is unbeatable, here is my breakeven sample." the audacity that makes you not even consider the fact that this could easily be beat this if for once in your life you tried to actually get better at the game instead of wallowing in your self pity. Now this is a trip. That being said GG sucks ass, but far from not beatable.
rake is everywhere so do not compare your 12 bb vs PT4 12 bb coz its post rake , substract like 7bb from your 12 and thats is your post rb on all sites +/- 1bb or so. U not crushing it rly but im not saying that gg is good they are shiet rb system is shiet and rake is vhigh.
online poker is dead since 2021 not a profitable enough venture since then, when gto solvers became the norm, and most of the people at higher stakes are just following solvers or bots applying randomized solver strategy, there is not enough fishes anymore, plus rakeback deals going down, it's really not worth it anymore
@@jasonskeans they do, all 3bet+ pots, thats why 7% 3bet is winning, tighter= better at low/mid stakes on gg because of the rake, i play 9% 3bet and im crushing nl 25 atm, made bankroll from 5nl and 10nl now playing 25
nah it's certainly beatable. The rake at microstakes is super high is not new news. It's really weird to me that there are people calculate bb/100 BEFORE rake, we always calculate it after rake. In my community at micro we aim for around 3-6bb/100 AFTER RAKE with good volume, crusher might got more than 8bb/100 (even though i only saw 1 at 10bb/100 many years ago) . So yeah, many people beat the microstakes. The field is soft so it make up for the rake in a way. Obviously for poker player, we always aim to play at mid stakes or above because of the rake system, so try to make your way out of microstakes as fast as possible. For myself, I got a ~7.8bb/100 AFTER RAKE winrate in 2020 from nl2 to nl10, and grind my way out of it and currently playing at nl200. So yeah, it's the path that everyone who has small bankroll at the beginning need to go.
this is where the issue comes bc over time less and less amateurs are signing up. gg at least does a lot of shows so they get new people on the site but with such high rake you're slowly killing your player base to only pros, then everyone loses to rake
Hi Future me here again at your stack 15k so for I'm winning 45bbs/100 before rake so yeah it's really easy down at 5/10 You guys 3bet fold pre oh way too much so I'm assuming you guys3bet pre hands that you really shouldn't f****** And then when you do cal And I make a 10% potbet instant f****** fold like you should never followed ever to a 10% bet on the flop pot
The frequency I see people going all in with pocket kings or queens and up against pocket aces is insane. I literally see it a few times a day everyday. I swear the shuffle algorithm is designed to get people all in pre flop more often to optimize rake
It is beatable, the rake structure is not so different from other sites, rake is high in genearl at micros, but looks like you are playing too much volume, i bet if you review your database with a coach , he is going to find tons of mistakes, we all make mistakes while playing
This is an old system. The new system's better 40% on a crab f****** old system. Weird. You don't really like crab is like 25% here Wayne I was like 55. I don't know weird system
1 its called pvi so yes you get around 25 not including leaderboards cash drops jackpots and gg care , 2 if you can t beat nl 10 with 15 -20 bb you sir are not that good at poker , also why the hell you want to play nl10? nl 50 has the most decent rake /rakeback ratio on that site, you also make 80 cents per 100 hands on this stake so thats about 8 bb i think that is a very good winrate in online cash games how much would you like to win at nl10? 3000 dolars at 100 k hands? lul
@@moll3y i dont think you understand how rake works bro , i don t want to bet an ashole about it but winning more then 5 bb ev after rakeback its a decent winrate since is online and you can put a lot more volume then playing 1 table live , but eitherway 1 you clearly played too many hands for that stake should have gone up quik , 2 you are winning pre rakeback on nl 25 so basically you probably make with rakeback more then 5 bb you should just move up agresive in cashgame not try to grind those micros it really is a waste of time , 3 of course different sites have different rake structures but i think you can t really complain while making over 5 bb with rakeback and just saying you can t beat the games since most of the winrate is from rakeback on gg , if you are a loosing player on gg you get PVI 1 that means you get all the rakeback so that way the pool becomes more softer then stars acr etc its just a different model
Here in the Netherlands GG has a monopoly. The only way you can play online poker is through GG. It is communist bs of the highest order. I don't even really care about the rake so much. For me the gameplay is just atrocious. All that straddle nonsense, running it twice, all the idiotic graphics - it just all adds up to a horrible gaming experience and that's before you start talking about rake. I wish I could play on Pokerstars again but I would have to move to another country! Can you believe that? You have to leave the country to play normal poker.
I live in the Netherlands too and besides gg I signed up with Unibet. Smaller player pool but lower skill level. Rake is a lot lower, no raking preflop. Also no promotions, ggcare, rush/zoom. It's a nice change to gg, check it out.
the rake discrepancies are the difference between MGR and Total Rake... tale as old as time, Pokertracker can track this correctly, dont know about the other tools...
i think its a huge scam they take rake when you take a pot down preflop they even rake the damn blinds like tf, just play cashgame live when rake rules actually make sense
People are informed. Its your dicision to play or not 🙆
@@vojtechmatulik1292 no they're not. GG will not tell players what their PVI is. Very scummy from GG
i just played 8000 of 1$ AoF games and EV line is upward and green line is dramaticalllly toward south, badbeating most of the games and -25$, while they rake 80$ from me, ridiculous
@@vojtechmatulik1292 people are not informed actually, thats the problem is their PVI system isnt known unless you know how to calculate it yourself
1 3 NL in canada 10 percent up to 20 bucks cap. Not much vetter
Hi, thanks, this is true also in S&G. I have played spin&gold in GG, Im an absolute winner in the microstakes, i have one of the best winrates, and the total amount of money made is 0 (zero). Also the RB has change so i quit the room
no way, 0 money after winning so well? they are ripping you off
Not including rake in the graph is such a sleazy, scammy move.
But I guess you don't become the biggest poker site in the world by playing by the rules.
The only reason they became the biggest is cos of the bad press that pokerstars created with their rake back system. If stars hadn't fucked off the pros they'd probably still be the biggest site. Though GGs interface and bells and whistles might have piped them.
All the pros leave the site and the site will die. The rake is unbeatable and even if you do beat the games for 10bb, the only way to beat the game. The variance on that site just seems rigged. I have played poker for 25 years and never seen that type of break even stretch i went thru. In games where players are giving money away. There is room for a new poker site where pros and the raking site can live harmoniously. Bad players will donate, always. Its not enough they have a casino as well. They want all the money. Scum bags
oh don't start this "it's rigged" nonsense. rigged to who?
It's funny to see so many commenters defending the site/attacking you for stating facts
cause gamblers want to believe that one day they will live from playing poker, theyre so blind for facts;)
@@yahoomlodygamblers arent poker players. They just learned that they lose slower at poker 😂
Gg poker support members comment all sites.On trustpilot they remove negative reviews an write the possitive ones.croocks
Set the rakeback to 100% in holdem manager. It's pretty depressing to see.
i used to play on ggpoker, did end up making 6bb/100 over 200K hands last year but this year i am losing 2bb/100. I live in belgium and rakeback is illegal here so I had to decide to stop playing all together. it's just not worth it when the absolute top players only make ~2bb/100 and you get raked 12! Just feels like you're a slave for the pokersite basically.
I think to be truely fair the pokersites should rake way less like maybe 1% or 2% max
I was a high volume player playing 4 rush and cash tables at once most of time sometimes just 2 so playing between 500 and 1000 hands/hour at 25NL which means they were making between 15$-30$/hour on my play alone which is just disgusting
still don't understand how they're allowed to take all this rake. They should be fucking arrested
Are you sure you're an absolute top player because I can guarantee you I two big blinds per 100 isn't really good or even six big blindfold on it. Even that good at low stakes midstakes even One door two door making six big blinds per 100 is kind of okay I guess. But on gg poker And love though that's good in the world. If you're on low stakes and you're making two big blinds per 100, you're doing something f****** wrong. Sorry for swearing because I think I was playing five $0.10 15,000 hands. I was making 44 big blinds per 100 just last week
If you're making $35 an hour And you do a thousand hands an hour. That's like $0.35 a hand so that's not really that good anyway
@@MultiSteven2011XD if you beat nl10 for 40bb/100, you are the best player in the world
@@MultiSteven2011 bro, what are you even talking about? He said GG is making 15-30 bucks off of him in rake per hour, playing only two 25NL-tables. That's absolutely disgusting, pure theft! 🤢
Thanks for posting this. I was considering signing up with GG but I'll be looking in to this more before I do.
dont
Is this Ontario or global pool? In Ontario it’s cash back not rake back, even in 200nl still paying almost 10bb/100 you need to be absolutely smashing the games by like 18-25bb/100 for it to be worth it
that's exactly how the global numbers look like?! even worse i think. don't forget the jackpot fee, which you will likely never see back in your life. you're raked 3bb/hand if you're playing a pot worth >30bb, and that jp fee is not included in the rakeback calculations, which are fake of course, because of their opaque pvi system.
the sample sizes he's showing are too small. i've been a pro for 15 years, i've had 100 buyins under ev on pokerstars back in the day at 2/4 nlhe over a sample of less than 200k hands. variance is brutal.
but he doesn't need to show graphs, it's obvious that it's almost impossible to beat GG, if you're not obliterating your competition. the stakes you're used to beating on other sites, you won't be able to beat on GG. you have to drop down at least one limit, so you're far ahead of your competition skill wise.
Does Ontario have BBJ ? If so, that also contibutes to rake, but it's supposed to be a wash in the long run. Also, besides the leaderboard, we should take the gg cares and flip outs into rakeback.
I believe the way to approach micros, is purely in terms of practise, maybe for a live game where making some $ is actually possible, or to become so good (and still losing after rake) that you can move up where the rake is not as punishing. Still it's disgusting and a bitter pill to swallow when every single $ you made playing poker went to the site. I know the feeling and share your outrage.
Nah you could still build you br with micros if you have a good rakeback deal. for example 40% rakeback it's like 5bb/100 if they are taking 12bb/100, so you could easily beat the rake and go up in stakes, that's what im doing rn, im beating nl10 for 13bb/100 before rake, with a rakeback of 40%, im barely up in winnings but I have like 2000bb in rakeback
I consistently beat 5NL even after rake, so it is certainly possible
My BR would show that im winning and consistently moving up, its just they take so much its almost not worth it. Especially with PVI choosing who gets raked more, high volume players such as myself get demolished by the rake system.
Around my 40K hand mark I also believe my PVI reached the ultimate low thus there was a rapid change in my overall w/r even though my BR continued to climb as apposed to the HM3 graph.
Rake at NL5 is not the same than NL10... I just jumped to NL10 and I was surprised by how much money they were taking, which wasnt happening in NL5...
@@noamcalvache5717lies. Read a fcking book short bus
@@noamcalvache5717 isnt it the same in BBs?
About 400k hands @@user-bz6jb1mo9z
That's insane. This needs more attention. I quit playing on GG.
@Moll3y Bomb pots are counted correctly in hm3?
yeah, I also have a similar experience. I play 5-card PLO. My graph shows I am up $1200 playing PLO25 over 29k hands. Doing the calculations that is around 16.5BB/100. In reality I am only up $430 which then becomes less than 1BB/100. Weird huh?
So what I've heard and experienced is that they have something called PVI for each person, which decreases the amount of fish points you get per 1$ raked. If you're PVI is 1, then you'd get 100 points for 1$ raked, but if it's 0.7, you only get 70 points. It's scammy that they don't tell you about that and they give different PVIs to each person playing. I kinda get the feeling they're putting down your PVI once your winning and put it up once your losing, so it's a thing they do to rake the pros more, but they let the PVI at 1 for the recs.
I think you have to keep in mind about the daily leaderboards, especially the higher stakes, some pay out 270-700$ daily for first place. this might be worth it to grind it out
Risk 2000 all the day to win 300 more or less it's not a deal
and the top accounts are the ones that play 24/7 (stables) so that's not achivable to just one single player.
You can't beat micro because of the rake. And if you beat it, your PVI goes so low that your rb becomes insignificant.
I have played poker online since almost day one. Started in 2004, so around 20 years. I have seen a lot of sites and networks come and go.
In that entire time GG is the only site I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.
where do you play?
Hi,
Thanks for video.
What pocker soft you would recommend?
Great breakdown video buddy can i ask a question about your total profit from all these hands/stakes you did slighty beat the 12 bb rake at 25nl what in terms of bb/100 did you get back in rakeback?
GG claims 50% rakeback is achievable on there site but this includes leaderboards and badbeat jackpots did you have any bbjs? Ive read that 250k hands on average will produce 2 bbjs and of course loads of bbjs where you happened to be at a table when one went off you may have been unlucky in your sample.
The rush and cash tables are raked at 8bb/100 and because of the massive amount of hands per hour you play the bbjs come in quite frequently for example playing 4 tables of 50nl depending on the amount of players in the pool you normally have a 20%-30% of being at a table if a bbj does happen
Im currently losing on GG but over the month or so ive played ive been at a table when a bbj has gone off 5 times and had a full bbj once ive played about 80k hands if i was beating the rake slightly like you or perhaps slightly losing id still be printing money
I'm confused. If you get rakeback then you aren't paying as much rake, hence you're actually beating the stake after rake.
Yes, but getting raked 9BB/100 post rake back and being lied to about how much rake is received is predatory.
@@moll3y The rake back must be true is just variance when you spinning for the amounts and over time the rake back should balance out no?
@@antonycostantine2457 no the rakeback is from amount of points generated, you generate less points if youre a winning player from PVI as low as 0.1 or 10x less than you should be generating
@@antonycostantine2457 gg have a sistem diferent, they give more or less rakeback against your hability, if you are beter, less rakeback, PVI or something like this.
@@antonycostantine2457 no the PVI system means winnings players generate less points than they actually should taking them longer to rank up for a spin or just lower cashback in general
this video should have thousands of views. I've been sayng this of NL50 for almost 2 years now but u had the work and put a great video. thx
The tournaments are beatable. Crushable, actually...
This is the case with other poker rooms too. And it's funny because you complain about Holdem. In PLO the rake is even worse.
Just forget about cash games and go play MTTs.
96k hands in 70 days playing non-zoom is kinda crazy. I think if you focused on quality instead of quantity you would do much better, 3-4 tables of Rush Cash IMO. Also reccomend posting your problem on 2+2 they probably got a solution. Take care.
Why is that crazy ? A bit more than 1k hands per day. There's nothing crazy about that. Secondly, he's crushing the stakes. The rake is insane. My question is, is that only for Ontario, CA or worldwide ?
@@Smokey525 Well depends how many tables his playing, I'm playing 3zoom tables and I can manage 1,2k hands in 2-3h approx, so by my calculation he plays atleast 4h a day for 70 days straight. Seems very consistent pro level grind or degenerate 12 tabel button clicking.
this comment is all about you bragging shit and has nothing to do with the topic. that is: the rake is insane! at 12bb/100 he is crushing these limits. especially since ppl on zoom are much tighter his winrate is even more impressive.
@@davidskasparsbergmanis1234 late response but I averaged 4 tables a day for 3.5~ hours (regular tables)
@@davidskasparsbergmanis1234 3 zoom tables is exactly 1.2k in 1 hours , so wtf u talking about aaahah
10 seconds in we can see you've been labelled by GG as running lucky. On that scale I've never been higher than 'bad run' and still beat the micros after rake. So stay positive guys, it is achievable
LOL I lost set over set 5 times in my last 7k sample. I dont think that holds much value
He clearly breaks it all down. You won't win with 12bb/100 in rake thats absurd.
@@willieogrady4703I can't speak for higher stakes but certainly for 2NL and 5NL it is perfectly achievable. I hardly get any rake-back on GG but consistently increase my bankroll. I have some losing days but literally never a losing month, and I'm no crusher just an ABC player
i do so am i linus love now or what? the pools are like playing against kids@@willieogrady4703
time to go to stars rake is roughly 8bb/100 field is tougher but you do get more rb aswell@@moll3y
What is the rake for Stars 0.01/0.02 & 0.02/0.05?
Seems like GG are using the cash table rakes to pay their high tournament guarantees.
The sites are keeping players around as long as possible to get maximum rake
Do you still play? If yes, on which platform?
because for me it's impossible with this rake charged
And these are reg tables and not rush and cash? If so thats honestly gross, the softest game with the softest pool but theres no beating that rake unless you just run like god and have 20bb/100 for half a million hands
Huge leak to play reg tables on gg over rush n cash at the micros, the rake difference is huge
What about the C$ money you won?
Did you cash out after 50k hands on 10NL? Looks like a withdrawal doomswitch
if theres one known metric its withdrawl tanks your PVI (how well you generate points from rake)
You don't want to be relying on some site operator to give you your winnings as "cash back" anyway, because then it's only a matter of time before they start siphoning from it till it's totally consumed and you're left with nothing.
since when was 100k hands enough to tell whether some game is beatable or not? You need to take a look at some variance calculator...
In my ringfenced pool the extreme low level of play by opponents makes it the best option despite this
go work supermarket son:D
Another online poker scam? Shocking. 😮
So what do you recommend, that point to make a lot of rake minding the gg starts tomorrow with 50% rakeback promo, i think Aof generate it faster, what do you mean
@user-mf2fd6dq8x is there some rake to achieve buddy? If yes i Will send my RV
@user-mf2fd6dq8x trueeee hustling at a mcdonalds to shoot some mid stakes much smarter
its not 50% rakeback its 50% cashback and PVI means you can make as little as 5% rakeback from that 50% rank, you dont know what youre talking about because GG hides it from players quite well until you do your own calculations
as long as people keep playing on their scam site nothing will change. boycott gg
On pokerstars 25nl i am raking 9bb/100 and winrate of 10bb/100 is still achiavable even tho i would say GG is softer.
You might not be paying attention on table selection, or you are simply not that good. (Wich is fine, everybody improves over time)
wtf r u saying, the guy is a crusher!
@@tiagos.8424 well.. 11bb winrate pre rake is not that great at 10nl. You can have this winrate even post rake at pokerstars 10nl.
Wich would mean pre rake winrate is +20bb/100.
He is definetely in top 10% if he is winning, but thats not crushing
hello is this rush cash game?
switch to MTTs, If you beat cash game , you will figure it out
Are you still playing to this day or u still donating money and time to GG poker if l may ask?
@@JohannaEriksson-kv5hy haha I stopped playing GG, picked up stars. Stopped playing in January as I just needed a break, picked up again about two weeks ago.
@@moll3y Did you look into how much rake u pay there? May l know? :D
@@JohannaEriksson-kv5hy I haven’t yet, I know the cap is little bit higher until $50 NL. You don’t get raked pre flop or for the BBJ. I’d imagine it’s not much better than GG but at least 1-2bb/100 saved.
@@moll3y thanks boss, good luck at the rivers
i thought ontario didint have pvi?
Man, micro stakes isn't for winning money and building roll. It's good to practice or to blow off some steam cheap. You live in a rich country, save some money and go play meaningful stakes, preferably live, or at least not on GG. That being said, I imagine a pro level player would beat 5NL by a lot, but what would be the point?
what does this have to do with anything he said in the video? omg
@@newbiE24 What do you mean? It's an old comment but as I remember the guy rants about not being able to have a positive winrate in the micros. In response I stated it was a stupid thing to be upset about as it really doesn't matter if you can actually win money at 5 or 10NL unless you are from an extremely poor country. It's just a nonsensical goal. There are two valid reasons to play poker, one is to make money and the other is to be a fish and have fun splashing chips. Neither requires having a 3bb winrate at 10NL, even with mass tabling that's like 2 bucks an hour.
kelly you talking bullshit!
What are u talking about... Great video. He summed UP a lot in 5min
Point is that GGs advertaising is a lie. They also lie about rakeback. And back in the days you could grind your way with 50$ to high stakes if u were good and today its impossible. Thats the point. Point is also that GG is sickely greeedy.
And its good to mention that if you dont have rich parents who will give you 5k roll u are not able to provide money from poker foryourself whatsoever bcs its impossible. And a lot od folks dont understand this and this grinding at micros is sensless even if you were isildur1
@@dinodoljanin2713 GG is a scum site but it doesn't make grinding the micros any less stupid. You say 5k like it was an amount only rich parents can get you. It's a months salary in a Western country. Get a job, save for 3-6 months and you have a 10-15k roll. It might take a bit longer in a poor country, but if you have game you can always get backers.
Quit playing 10nl.
Yeah that's the plan, I didn't mention PVI in the video but I think I may have been stuck by the PVI hammer pretty hard about 40K hands in. I realized around this mark no matter how much I felt like I was playing good and winning, I was always breaking even at the end of my sessions.
@@moll3y theres no pvi in ontario
Pokerstars increased all microstakes rake (regular tables) to 5%, with increased rake caps also, which, coupled with the worse rakeback for microstakers, make GG the better deal between the two of them. Granted, GG games are nittier and the preflop rake is quite irritating, but I wouldn't be surprised if, even at 30% RB, GG isn't better for the micro folks.
12bb/100 should be a breakeven winrate at micros after rake. you should be able to beat 10NL on GG at 20+ bb/100, and more as breakeven regs start fleeing the site. most live games can be beat at 30-40bb/100 and i've seen legitimate amateurs beat micros at similar rates over 100k+ hands
Lol
shut up dude, u would never be able to do it. its not possible be overall it , the game of poker doenst allow it
exactly what i got after 50k hands. gg Bot just turn off showdown winnings. Its obvious that if you win 40k hand by showdown you cant just loose next 40k hands on SD... Same happened to me. I crushed rush25 on first 15k hands and then they turn off showdown winnings. In my case its just flat next 15k hands. And my game just got better.
more rake is more better
12 BB / 100 is a great winrate and still loosing!?
These pokercraft graphs are such a joke. 100% true all said in this video. Ggpoker cashgames are absurd.
Yeah totally agree with you bro pvi fuck us all i only play for leaderboard money even though it’s hard playing 15h a non stop
you need to get better winrate bro, you probably have massive leaks if u cant beat the rake...on stars its around 10bb/100 as well and there is so many winners on those stakes,, post rake
Switched to stars, crushing stars
Its hilarious how you were beating the game, exactly same way i was for huge returns and then were still "beating" the game but not enough to overcome rack. I guarantee there is something happening with their deck randomization. They just call it variance, but its not. GG is forcing the variance to keep the money recycling, so the same players dont have to keep adding funds and they can rake the game to death. Its a Chinese ran company, more the same dirty chinese tricks. This has zero to do with race btw, ita just how the CPP operates.
Look up GG poker PVI rake system
you canadians have it weird. I have whale in finland that gives 50%. and I'm getting like 10-20% rakeback as a small winning player
Why are they getting away with it
12BB/100 is crazy good to begin with...
I left after " i kind of went on tilt".
Rush has less rake cap 3bb/hand instead of 10bb/hand like reg NL2-NL10. But still 12bb/100 for rake is robbery
Im geofenced within Ontario so unfortunately cash, sng, and mtts are the only available options :(
@@moll3y play pokerstars
I'm to understand that you beat 10NL for 1300$ over your sample size, or not, from this video???
Yes I did, but it was essentially all from rakeback.
@@moll3y I would say that $1300 profit in a number of hands that can easily be played in two months or less, at 10NL, is actually excellent! After all, IT'S JUST 10NL!
Well ok, but maybe you didn't have 40% rakeback for the whole time, did you? Maybe you had lower rakeback at first, and leveled it up later? Heck, maybe you even had a periods of time when you played lower volume and so you fallen down to lower rakeback again?
No this was 40% the whole time
there is a hidden value called player value index that reduce the rakeback paid to regs
What’s your username? I play 10nl, winning at 9bb/100 debating if it’s even worth it to continue and move up stakes? You are winning more than me and I want to gauge compared to you.
I've never understood "rake is unbeatable". If you are a consistent winner, you are making more money than losing, regardless how much the rake is. You don't pay rake if you fold. I beat 10/25NL at around 15BB/hour and didn't even notice the terrible rake because I was winning
Yes the BR continues to climb. But only as much as the site lets it, I'm still technically winning at a 12BB/100 but on my graphs I'm simply breaking even because I'm only really winning what they're giving me back in rakeback.
That doesn't make sense. You are winning 12bb/hr, where does all your winnings go from your balance? You're still winning money@@moll3y
I’m technically winning at 12BB/100. They take 12BB/100 and then give me 1/4 of that back in rake back.
@@moll3y It's still better than most other sites if you go by the numbers. Bovada/Ignition the rake is probably close to 10bb/100 if you include tighter ranges, and there is no rakeback. I guarantee on no other site do you make over 1k at 10nl in 100k hands.
i accord that the rake is to high and they are lying about the actual rakeback but you are playing 23/16/7 which means youre probably not the best of your pool and still able to be breakeven before rakeback, which means that these games are of course beatable
@@LeTroisiemeBarrelpost rakeback I was still crushing it. For the average player though, this is not a beatable structure UNLESS you’re grinding the daily leaderboard.
I’ve become a lot more sound than I was at the time of this recording, beating poker stars pre take back. I still stand by the fact GG is ‘unbeatable’. The video does come across as nobody can win, of course people can. But the structure is absurd.
@@moll3yhow much in rakeback would the leaderboard be?
@@moll3yalso do u have any takes on pokerstars or a video?
Hi Future Future it's 5%. Cap it two big blinds 7.66 bigs per haunted hands at50c/1$ Rush and crash and so your 12.5 goes down to like less than five. So five five* 96 is 488 get better at poker is really checked my roommate big points pro 100 because I haven't done enough sample but I did five thousand hands just before like a week ago I was 30bb/100 before rake so 22.6
IMO if the sites keep stealing players in the CASH game tables, the only option is MTTs. You know Exactly how much you pay in rake on the buy-in. And btw, mtt pools are SOFT in every stake, high stakes included.
ye but variance is fucked
If you play in Ontario, don’t you have 70% rakeback? I believe the laws are different for Ontario specifically.
No
Never heard of PVI I guess. Better read the rules before complaining afterwards
I like how this video basically says "I'm the best player in the world" because you are showing yourself breaking even, so for someone to even be a little bit better they'd already beat the game with that sample of yours.
@@science7110 you’re actually tripping
@@moll3y How is that a trip bruh? "Game is unbeatable, here is my breakeven sample." the audacity that makes you not even consider the fact that this could easily be beat this if for once in your life you tried to actually get better at the game instead of wallowing in your self pity. Now this is a trip. That being said GG sucks ass, but far from not beatable.
rake is everywhere so do not compare your 12 bb vs PT4 12 bb coz its post rake , substract like 7bb from your 12 and thats is your post rb on all sites +/- 1bb or so. U not crushing it rly but im not saying that gg is good they are shiet rb system is shiet and rake is vhigh.
Theres a reason rake rhymes with a not so popular word
online poker is dead since 2021
not a profitable enough venture since then, when gto solvers became the norm, and most of the people at higher stakes are just following solvers or bots applying randomized solver strategy, there is not enough fishes anymore, plus rakeback deals going down, it's really not worth it anymore
Well playing only a 7% 3bet is definitely not a winning strategy. I pay around 11bb/100 rake at nl200 and I'm printing pre-rb :) glgl
7% 3bet can for sure be winning lol
@@BG1435q can be, but it's on the low end and not optimal ;)
I heard gg rakes even preflop pots
@@jasonskeans they do, all 3bet+ pots, thats why 7% 3bet is winning, tighter= better at low/mid stakes on gg because of the rake, i play 9% 3bet and im crushing nl 25 atm, made bankroll from 5nl and 10nl now playing 25
Greed and yet no 1 boycotts
Mate you are (were) playing 24-16-7 on 100.000 Hands, obv you could not beat the games...
nah it's certainly beatable. The rake at microstakes is super high is not new news. It's really weird to me that there are people calculate bb/100 BEFORE rake, we always calculate it after rake. In my community at micro we aim for around 3-6bb/100 AFTER RAKE with good volume, crusher might got more than 8bb/100 (even though i only saw 1 at 10bb/100 many years ago) . So yeah, many people beat the microstakes. The field is soft so it make up for the rake in a way. Obviously for poker player, we always aim to play at mid stakes or above because of the rake system, so try to make your way out of microstakes as fast as possible. For myself, I got a ~7.8bb/100 AFTER RAKE winrate in 2020 from nl2 to nl10, and grind my way out of it and currently playing at nl200. So yeah, it's the path that everyone who has small bankroll at the beginning need to go.
this is where the issue comes bc over time less and less amateurs are signing up. gg at least does a lot of shows so they get new people on the site but with such high rake you're slowly killing your player base to only pros, then everyone loses to rake
top comment
ACR poker best election bro, GL
And when i bet baccarat they play wifi too man
Have you switched to pokerstars? :)
Yes sir! Took a break not long after this video but back at it and crushing pre rakeback now lol
Hi Future me here again at your stack 15k so for I'm winning 45bbs/100 before rake so yeah it's really easy down at 5/10 You guys 3bet fold pre oh way too much so I'm assuming you guys3bet pre hands that you really shouldn't f****** And then when you do cal And I make a 10% potbet instant f****** fold like you should never followed ever to a 10% bet on the flop pot
no wonder they show your graph without rake. disgusting !
Haha, exactly. So scammy, it's as if a shop only showed prices without including the VAT.
The frequency I see people going all in with pocket kings or queens and up against pocket aces is insane. I literally see it a few times a day everyday. I swear the shuffle algorithm is designed to get people all in pre flop more often to optimize rake
you know why? because those are the only hands that these nits 4b and GII, they arnt stacking off with KQo lol so its always going to be QQ+ and AKo+.
Dont like it ? Dont play it no one put a gun to your head to choose GGpoker .
It’s educational to their player pool who is being deceived by their rake and rakeback program
I beat 100rnc for 2bb post rake. Reach out if you want coaching
2bb pre rake? :Dd
@@science7110lol I meant to say pre rb
It is beatable, the rake structure is not so different from other sites, rake is high in genearl at micros, but looks like you are playing too much volume, i bet if you review your database with a coach , he is going to find tons of mistakes, we all make mistakes while playing
look what thay doing fo SNG community in MTT , thay whant all poker become casino
Even oline baccarat to bro
This is an old system. The new system's better 40% on a crab f****** old system. Weird. You don't really like crab is like 25% here Wayne I was like 55. I don't know weird system
1 its called pvi so yes you get around 25 not including leaderboards cash drops jackpots and gg care , 2 if you can t beat nl 10 with 15 -20 bb you sir are not that good at poker , also why the hell you want to play nl10? nl 50 has the most decent rake /rakeback ratio on that site, you also make 80 cents per 100 hands on this stake so thats about 8 bb i think that is a very good winrate in online cash games how much would you like to win at nl10? 3000 dolars at 100 k hands? lul
I would have liked to take more than half of the amount I was winning at. They’re taking 60% of earnings which is ridiculous.
@@moll3y i dont think you understand how rake works bro , i don t want to bet an ashole about it but winning more then 5 bb ev after rakeback its a decent winrate since is online and you can put a lot more volume then playing 1 table live , but eitherway 1 you clearly played too many hands for that stake should have gone up quik , 2 you are winning pre rakeback on nl 25 so basically you probably make with rakeback more then 5 bb you should just move up agresive in cashgame not try to grind those micros it really is a waste of time , 3 of course different sites have different rake structures but i think you can t really complain while making over 5 bb with rakeback and just saying you can t beat the games since most of the winrate is from rakeback on gg , if you are a loosing player on gg you get PVI 1 that means you get all the rakeback so that way the pool becomes more softer then stars acr etc its just a different model
You should play somewhere else for example ACR
Rakeback program is a lie, I agree, but microstakes is beatable for more than 12bb/100 after rake. I think you lack skills. 😢
😂 Sure buddy, graph or it didn't happen.
Maybe we should treat poker like gamers treat league of legends and Counterstrike. Playing every day just for playing not to make a living.
You mean playing every day just to lose, not "for just playing". There is no "just playing" in poker; you either lose or win money.
Here in the Netherlands GG has a monopoly. The only way you can play online poker is through GG. It is communist bs of the highest order. I don't even really care about the rake so much. For me the gameplay is just atrocious. All that straddle nonsense, running it twice, all the idiotic graphics - it just all adds up to a horrible gaming experience and that's before you start talking about rake.
I wish I could play on Pokerstars again but I would have to move to another country! Can you believe that? You have to leave the country to play normal poker.
I live in the Netherlands too and besides gg I signed up with Unibet. Smaller player pool but lower skill level. Rake is a lot lower, no raking preflop. Also no promotions, ggcare, rush/zoom. It's a nice change to gg, check it out.
you should play mtt instead for profit!
it's beatable at plo
the rake discrepancies are the difference between MGR and Total Rake... tale as old as time, Pokertracker can track this correctly, dont know about the other tools...
video is down lol