Playing Against Good Players at a Table of Fish
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ค. 2024
- Today, Bart takes a call dealing with an ultra multiway sot and the Hero holding on with a weak ace on the button. Bart points out that sometimes you have to play "straight up" vs other good players, at a table of fishy ones
0:00- Intro
1:38 - Preflop
3:56 - Flop
7:33 - Turn
14:06 - River
19:16 - Reveal
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Usually when the table is fishy enough no pro will be interested in battling each other at all
Turn is a slam dunk fold vs an unknown villain. I think Bart is being too nice to the caller here. Without a strong read that villain is spazzing out too often it's just a fold.
So I was the caller here, who uh...called a lot.
I can’t emphasize enough how valuable calling in these hands are, or going over these mistakes in general. Playing this hand in the moment, looking at this hand history on paper, and then speaking out loud about it with Bart all made me feel completely different ways about my decisions.
Overall yeah, this is very sticky and I’m really just fortunate that I got a good result-and that the villain was who I thought he was. Vs a lot of guys you have plenty of folds on earlier streets, and if I wasn’t scared money shottaking here I really like 3!’ing pre way more and usually making the hand easier to play, should I do it 100 times.
There might be something to be said for bluff catching IP knowing that some runouts cause V to slow down and we just realize our equity very cheap-I don’t think it’s a disaster to lose 1-2 streets here out-kicked, especially for the turn sizing this guy chose. I was expecting a pot/overbet a ton with his range, and that I would fold to. Once this dude triples off though-the spot is hairy at best. The main thing I thought about was that he probably just jam his best hands here instead of leaving a few hundred back-just sizing up turn/river overall. Turning my hand into a bluff on spades is something I never thought about and figured only worse hands would want to do that-but my hand is relatively bad after all, what worse do I get here with? Lol
Can’t keep doing this though especially when most people aren’t showing up with the pretty surprising combo he had at the end-I’ll be broke!
Thanks again to Bart and for all the feedback-from everyone! It all goes a long way.
nh. an important fact that i didnt hear you talk about was whether or not villain knew you were shot-taking and semi-scared money. if so, he could be much more likely to try to get you to fold, which would obviously make you lean more towards a call than you otherwise might.
also wanted to say that when in a new game against new opponents you should definitely lean more towards calling in general in close spots just to see how theyre playing against you. so while this is probably a fold turn and/or river in a vacuum, if its that close for you id almost always prefer a call.
the last thing, and you already kinda hinted at this, is that you definitely dont want this hand to cause you to call a bunch in spots where its unwarranted in the future or youll give the profit from this hand back quickly. in other words, monitor his play closely and dont automatically put him or the population as a whole into the 'theyre willing to get out of line with pf raises and cbets and bluffs so therefore i need to call down everything' group. again, you sound too smart for that but just pointing it out.
Interesting take. Hope the caller responds.
@@gazorpazorp9798 Do you read?
@@andrewg6241 Yes, , I do. Do you? Or are you not bright enough to understand how TH-cam comments work? I wrote, “I hope the caller responds.” in reply to Moa F2P’s comment to the caller’s TH-cam comment.
I await your apology. Not really though as rude people Almost never admit the mistakes on the internet.
@@moaf2padventures757 So the V did not know I was shot taking per se, but I was also playing on the tighter side and hadn’t gotten out of line.
That could be a factor sure…and of course, not every V is necessarily going to be this capable. I’ve heard of some extremely tight/OMC ridden rooms though, and MGMNH is def not one of them. The comparison in this area is MD Live-much nittier room overall.
My initial line of thought was to call, raise turn if no spade hit, and check river if possible (against a large bet on river fold regardless of a spade showing up), but the way the hand played out, my line of play would be call on turn (unwillingly) and call or shove on the river after queen hit (leaning more on shove).
I would fold the turn because I’m a nit
I fold the flop and I’m not a nit at all.
@@TheTree1 agree. Relative position with two or three folks behind u left to act turns this hand into nothing Imo.
Pauls stay winning. Agree w folding turn though lol
As a side note Bart, I think one thing you should ask callers about more often is hand history with villain or image in the particular session in which the hand being discussed occurred. Maybe could give context for some of these weird villain lines
Havent seen the result yet, but I would have folded the turn. If I did get to the river like he did, I would probably sigh call the river.
Agreed
Just doing my part. Lol thanks for the content brotha.
One point in favor of betting KsJs/Ts type draws on the flop that maybe we haven’t considered is how strong we seem to a good player that has the ace. So if I cbet those hands and a fish calls they simply have the ace and I would shut down/try to get there. However, if the player who understands the strength of my action has the weak ace, then we can get them off the hand.
Plus, hands that play well multi-way and don’t three bet from the button facing a fish iso are small pairs and suited aces. There’s like a 50/50 chance that our call on the button is a weak ace. Having said that, the fish have lots of unsuited aces although also lots of junk.
A good player who recognizes the strength of your action won't call you with a weak ace. So when they call flop, the turn barrel is unlikely to generate many folds unless it's a spade. And when they call you with a worse draw they will probably bet/raise a turn blank. And then what do you do? All the drawing hands are clear folds if the turn goes check-bet or bet-raise. Cbetting with draws into multiple people is just bad and it's not something the solver does.
@@faaltoh I think that’s a great point and you could be right. However, where have you seen a solver for a 4-way pots? 🧐 Would love to check it out
@@Dylan-vm4gl I can't remember exactly, maybe I don't have a solid source on this. But I know the high stakes pro BenABadbeat checks range multiway with players left to act behind. Multiway spots take an extreme amount of computing power to calculate, so they are very rare. I think most of the accepted wisdom comes from how the 6max AI bot Pluribus plays, there are example hands out there if you look. It's also common knowledge that when multiway you need to play a lot tighter than heads up, using smaller bet sizes. I doubt draws without a pair ever make it into the betting range. But hey I could be wrong.
I think the river card became more of a difficult fold than a call.
idts. I think the turn is a fold but when the river card comes I think its a call. Like he said, improves him to 2 pair with Q kicker, gonna get a lot of chops with that but sometimes run into AK for a higher kicker/AQ
Calling for a higher chance to chop than win?
Yeah I think the river means you have to call because he probably doesn’t have AK AQ and you’re chopping with the rest
I can't even make it past the flop. Too many players. 😂
Interesting spot. Reminds me of like a Omaha hi low pot where you locked in a low that might be split. You’ll probably win most the time but if you get quartered the play doesn’t beat the variance
The villains bet sizing raised a redflag to me, I’ve noticed that when people go with the same type of sizing on all three streets, it looks a bit weak. The river is a jam for your bluffs and your value hands with what he had left. A 4 is definitely a bluff catcher but I think you might have to call down to chop with most of his Ax. You’re run into AK or AQ, but I think AK or AQ is jamming river 99% of the time.
Sometimes, when there are a lot of fishy players at the table they like to call with wide, weak ranges and then check/fold flops. The cutoff reg may have picked up on this and therefore his bet with J10 as the preflop aggressor isn't that bad imo. He's only got to get it through the button and if the fish play back he can shut it down. This cutoff reg seems like he could have been a bit laggy and I would def call him down with any ace even betting into 4 people but I would have to be sure that all the assumptions I just listed where in play. But I'm probably just bad lol.
I play in a very casual game where people call preflop way too wide and then check fold. The issue is even there I wouldn't go for it on that flop because hands like A7o are just way too represented. If it were something like J73 then I'd be far more likely to take a stab with something like QTs with a backdoor flush (especially if they player I'm most worried about have multiple players behind them like here) because now I can fold out the bad A highs.
Fold OTF, fold OTT for all the reasons Bart says.
If you want to continue OTT then you absolutely need to bluff spades on the river. You would have 11 flush outs + 3 wheel outs.
River AK = 8, AQ = 6, AJ = 8, AT = 8. You need to be making about 4x your call on this river to compensate for the situation and you aren't. Yes I am adding my spazz factor in this.
after seeing results
*FACEPALM*
Only reason for not bluffing is that you cant get him off chop because opponent has only 300 behind, so its close between calling and folding, bit more for calling
@@Daniel3NT It is implied if the river doesn't pair the board and has a spade we can bluff.
Funny I missed that the board was paired OTR lol. Yes I believe you are right about the combos on the river and calling for a chop. ~26 combos that beat you. If you just count AJ and AT here that is 16 combos. A8s, A7s, A6s, A5s = 8 combos. Complete air say 2 combos.... yea technically it is a call for a chop or fold.
If the river pairs then I think good equity to check back river.
Clean rivers jams
Overbluff versus overcall
What do you think about a raise all-in on the turn?
I stopped this vid at 17:00, to give my 2ct.
- I agree with the caller in thinking that the opponent is barreling because he/she faced four callers at the start.
(I think the opponent has J 10 or J 9 suited, fwiw, lol, I'm really guessing here)
Thx Bart!
Lol
Awesome!!!
Regardless of my 'correct' prediction a couple of minutes ago; I now wonder if the vid itself lead me to believe that J 10 could be right...
THX for doing this Bart. Made my brain crunch for a minute or two... love it! Cheers.
Does that mean that hero with fold to an all in that on the river?
Suited ace in position … I go by odds … 20-1 implied odds … it’s a call multi way I may try to isolate so a three bet bluff is an option …kind of don’t wanna get reraised either …
44 55 with a spade barrels flop and turn
Villan should NEVER have JToff in this spot. When players are so far out to lunch our deep strategy thinking has less impact. Against a player that wide we must just be patient and call with all our medium strength and above holdings.
if CO chks flop... do you bet or chk button?
The good players referred to in the thumbnail must have all folded preflop
Do we have 2Pair+ in our range on this flop? If yes, I would raise cbet and shove non-spade turns.
The co who is a good reg just cbet into 4 opponents on an ace high flop. He isn’t folding an ace here and he basically always has an ace or better. Your line is lighting money on fire. I think as played just fold the flop.
Bart's saying V's line is spewy, but in V's shoes with JTo, how else should they have played it to realize eq by river? Is this just truly a check/give up spot for V on any street?
They decided to take the aggro route pre and continue OTF w/ the cbet, knowing now that Hero likely has no strong Ax/2pair+ due to not 3b pre and then just flatting OTF. V picks up eq on turn, so wouldn't it make sense to just 3 barrel the whole way as played instead of x turn and pray for a spade/broadway river? Sure the Js in his hand is a reverse blocker to Hero's potential spade draws, but V's bet sizing seems to be targeting weak Ax anyway.
Now that I'm writing this out, perhaps the paired river might've been a better check for V, since as the caller mentioned, the targeted Ax range now chops with any kicker less than a Q, and V is subsequently now only repping a range of AQ+ for thick value.
You don’t have to try and win every pot. Sometimes it’s fine to just give up.
Pre - fold
Flop - check/fold
Turn - check/fold
River - check/fold
Ironic part is they were all fish lol
surprised you guys didn’t mention A2 hearts/clubs that’s counterfeited on the river
What's the overall strategy against a fishy table that limps all the time, and then don't fold to raises pre making nearly every hand multi way? Is it just by playing like an absolute nit with top 10% of hands in EP/MP and only VPIP wider in late position? One of my bigger leaks is not knowing what to do in LJ/HJ with hands like JT, QT in a field of limpers with one raise from MP.
Play tight, and especially look for in position spots. Raise preflop most of the time you enter very large (double or more your regular open) Only overlimp from late position and very specific implied odds spots. Do NOT limp with broadways you don't want to raise or rag aces. Low pockets and low-mid connectors are probably the only ones to limp with
@@dxfifa on a 9 handed table, you don't overlimp bad offsuit broadways on a few limpers on the button ?
@@fanfan7848 fuck no, you're asking to lose big pots when you hit your hand
@@dxfifa let's say, there is 4 limpers. 100 to 200 bb deep. Would you fold JTo or K7s otb?
@@fanfan7848 Of course I would, I'm not a donkey
Here's the thing nobody addresses much. What could the guy be value betting? If we put him on a strong range which is AK, even AK has to worry about this board. This is what we call polarization. Do we think he will value bet a hand like AK that strong into that type of board on all 3 streets? If he won't, then he has a monster or air. And there are only a handful of monsters. So this when you can sniff out hero calls.
Also, I don't mind doing a showdown raise on the flop here. Make it like $200. Even if he has AK, he will likely go into check call mode. This allows you to get to the river cheaper and/or make an even bigger pot if you happen to catch.
Hate the flop call but don't mind the river call
I would question the read of the CO being competent here. Cbetting into 4 opponents no pair no draw static top pair board seems atrocious IMO. Also the hand CO chooses here is pretty bad iMVHO. We can have way better hands than JTo.
It seems to me like the CO is yet another player who lacks self-discipline, patience, and he is trying to win every hand. This of course is only based on this one hand,
I would watch the guy carefully in the future to see if he has tendencies to cbet too often and raise trash hands in position.
Good spot for hero, but I think overall making calls like these vs what we consider to be "competent" players is optimistic at the very least.
This hand was ridiculous.
I think the flop call is truly bad based on relative position and reverse implied odds. Not sure why everyone seems to think seeing the turn was fine. You put yourself in a horrible spot with players who could check raise and then on the turn if there's no wheel or 4 you have to fold to a barrel usually
Hey Bart how many buyins would you recommend for a match a stack game my game is 1-2 but stacks will be at 1.3k later on in the night
25k+ (need at least 20 buy ins Minimum)
You mean to bring with you in one session or for an overall bankroll?
If stacks are playing over 1k even if it’s 1/2 you probably want to be rolled as if you’re in a 5/10 game unless you want to play short
Depends on your win-rate, but 10+ buy-ins in the minimum and that's if you dominate at that level. You can play perfectly and lose 5 buy-ins very fast. You need the ability to keep playing when variance hits.
As Keith wrote, 20+ is even better, and frankly most people need 30+ but they don't understand that.
We watch players win online with lower buy-ins because they got lucky in the sense of variance didn't strike them down, and those players who go bankrupt from lack of money management, they don't video that for TH-cam.
@@CrushlivePoker both, I normally bring 1k everyday cause I always wanna have them covered because they are just so bad
I like the caller’s play. Makes sense to me. Sometimes you have to defend with marginal hands and sometimes you have to fold great hands
I got a little confused by the discussion on the river. How often does opponent have something better than Aces and Threes by a Queen (i.e. a chop) at that point?
I'm thinking more of a win by counterfeit.
I'm probably missing something really obvious (or misunderstanding what 'win by counterfeit' means) but what would be some specific opponent hands that would win by counterfeit on that river?
@@krisrhodes5180 let's say that he hit two pair by the turn (not including a pair of aces,) the river pair of three's would have counterfeited his hand. Just a remote possibility to consider.
@@Williy_Nilly I understand that the 3 on the river counterfeits someone's hand if they hit two pair by the turn. The only two pair they could have by the turn (aside from two pairs involving aces or threes--the former chops, the latter wins but not "by counterfeit") is Q2. If opponent has Q2, first of all, that's weird and not something we'd usually expect him to have, second of all, that means he does _not_ win by counterfeit, he loses the hand in that case.
My original question is referencing the fact that in the video, Bart and the caller seem worried on the river that opponent has them beat. That is what I said I'm confused about. I am asking how often opponent has a hand better than Aces and Threes by a Queen (hero's hand). It seems like almost never, compared to the much greater chance that opponent and hero are chopping. So I don't know why they were seeming to be worried by the three. It almost certainly made opponent's hand worse while improving hero's, didn't it?
@@krisrhodes5180 I think the river show my villain was ill-advised. It did not make a lot of sense and placed his hand in an extremely narrow range which was highly unlikely. Which leads back to my point that it was harder to fold than to call.
Wagyu is just super fatty beef. It's like the foie gras of cow. If you prefer toro to tuna, foie grae to pate, cognac to armagnac, etc., then you will probably like wagyu, but it's more oily and less flavorful. It's harder to produce but that doesn't make it objectively tastier.
If pate were harder to make than foie gras, then it would be priced higher and people would consider *it* the delicacy. A lot of foods are like this; Veblen goods, they are called in economics; a good which starts to acquire a price premium over and above its cost of production because of its exclusivity and consequent use-value as a status signifier. Other examples include Densuke cataloupes, sturgeon caviar, civet coffee, fifty year-old whisky, junmai daigingo sake, birds' nests, shark fins, and anything involving gold leaf. I have tried most of this crap.
People buy this stuff because they have not had it before and they are curious as to whether the price is justified by the quality and/or the novelty, but, in the end, guess what, the bottle of Dom Perignon for $1500 brought to you by the bottle service chicks tastes similar to the $300 Dom you buy at total wine, and that is a better metaphor for fatty beef vs. regular beef than cocaine versus coffee (it's a hell of a drug.)
Wagyu is not better in any way, unless you just happen to be that person who loves smooth, oily, fatty meat.
The surprise, and it would be an unfortunate surprise if you were not rich from donks, would be if you did find that veblen good which was actually better than its generic counterpart. Like if you are rich, and you are a car guy, and you actually do enjoy tracking your lambo rather than just driving it down Rodeo Drive, then you might actually not feel ripped off. But you're only really going to get the thing's full "value" by balling with the young and sexy. That holds true for all these things, I think.
This write up on Waygu was much more in depth than the hand.
The problem wasn't ordering Wagyu. The problem was ordering tenderloin and expecting it to be a good steak. Tenderloins are too lean to make good steaks
is A4 better to call with than A9/AT here?
Why would it be better than A9? Because you are blocking the low straight?
I'm folding the turn. Not even second guessing it.
That is what I was thinking also.
Not the easiest fold ever but I tend to lean this way also.
I might even fold the flop there against all those opponents.
I am folding the flop pretty often here as well.
Depends on how they play
The problem with solvers an game theory is if everyone played the exact same then game theory and solvers would be perfect.
The afro mentioned don't take into account each individual player and their tendencies.
I think calling the flop is fine. But once again it all depends on the size. If the villain bet pot on the flop I think you can reasonably fold.
The villain bet 2/3 on the turn. I would fold. If villain bet half pot or less I would call.
If the river was a spade and it was checked to me I would rep spades.
And if everyone was playing perfectly or even near perfectly, there would be no point in playing
@@johnnytwotimes7854 Very true Johnny two times. I feel ya homie
Yea I'd fold turn for 1/3 pot or more.
@@eternalselph I think if it's a third pot or even half pot or less it probably couldn't be a bad fold. But the whole point of calling a half pot size bet or less is you could be ahead of spades, a random wacky bluff like Jack 10 lol. And of course if you're beat you can credibly rep spades, if checked to you of course.
You need to balance this as you can't just universally do this every single time.
A good time to bluff is when the perception from other players is your playing tight.
Abuse people's perception of you by doing the opposite of what they think of you.
That's a good way to balance things.
Q: How to play against good players at a fishy table.
Caller's A: Become the fishiest calling station ever.
Yeah, I don't hate the call. I think there's some leveling dynamics here you gotta at least consider
Insane hand
Maybe more a case of the CO trying to get rid of the fish.
Not sure if I call turn, it definitely feels close. River I would call because I think they have enough bluffs plus times we split (I would fold AT and AJ on the river though). Definitely in retrospect 3-betting here seems like it would have been the play if CO is just trying to open that wide against a weak player but it is hard to know that going into the hand.
3 bet preflop in pos the hand plays easier
I think the flop is the key street, fold or squeeze. As played, river is a tough decision but the 3h is a great card for you, probably the second best card in the deck after the three offsuit 5s.
This is one of those opponent bluff lines that doesn't really work. The only premium hands he can value bet river are AK, AQ, QQ, AA, but preflop and flop action are very small for AK/AQ/AA needing protection, and why bet QQ into four players with an ace on the board? So that leaves the garbage hands that hit, 22 33 45, and bluffs. KJ/KT of spades is probably the hand that makes the most sense here. He might have some AQ here but I think it's mostly bluffs.
Opponent's line doesn't make sense, so you have to call river.
Best analysis so far!
bad call at right time. He fired into a multi-way pot on the flop. The fold was on the turn. Don't be results oriented
As others have said, fold the turn. No reason to continue.
This just seems like a fold on the turn. Seems like the flop call was even marginal.
The river is entirely different. I doubt I'd ever get here, but if I did; I doubt I can fold. I heard Bart saying it's not MDF, but I don't see how we could ever have a better hand here? If hero never has AK here; what better hand is there to call with? The queen was a terrible turn card for hero, but the river 3 is the best card in the deck [obviously a 4 or 5 improves us more, but are we ever considering a fold on a 4 or 5 river??]
I have a hard time believing that villain had j10 off
If you find yourself at the river here admit your mistake and let it go already. I haven’t watched the end but it’s very obvious the CO has like no bluffs
Well that was lucky wasn’t it
"Want better blockers".. literally block AA, AK, AQ! Or am I going mad?!?
My thought exactly. Having the A is a great blocker IMO. Also having the A of diamonds gives villain fewer combos of A3s that boat up by the river.
How can this villain be considered a good player after playing J10 off this way. I think the fact that he plays like this with J10 proves both that the call is fine on the river, and that the villain is bad. But if the villain is good, it’s a bad call on the turn and river.
The hand is almost unbelievable. I guess weird things can happen sometimes.
@@jamesbell1613 yeah I mean a good player would know that he’s not going to be able to get an ace to fold on this river, and yet barrels anyway. Especially with the two spades out there it’s just a bad bluff on the river
@@DeluviumOfficial If I somehow make to the river with this hand (maybe I'm plastered 😂), I'd have to call.
3-bet pre. As played honestly just fold the turn, you don't need to call with a hand this weak.
If the villain has a strong ace here and he's a good player I would think he check calls the river. What hands 3 barrel here for value expecting to get called when the flush and straight draw bust?
Idk it seemed weird. I might've folded on the turn but if I stayed in and he bet again on the river I would actually be happier because I know if he's bluffing he HAS to bet to win. And if he checks he's good for sure.
If he hits 4 or 5 of spades he STILL has to fold
I wasn't feeling the Waygu steak either it's like eating all fat.
If V if cbetting JTo into 3 players on this board, he’s not good.
That hand was poorly played by both the hero and the villain in my opinion. In the end the call was the only correct one out of the whole hand
How does any of this matter? Hero has the worst ace possible on the flop. He's beat by every other Ax hand you can be dealt. What's the conversation after that strong lead into a multi way pot on the flop? He either has a strong ace or isn't concerned about his opponent having one.
He had JT? You got extremely lucky this guy is exceptionally reckless with money. Forget any of this ever happened.
So many draws miss though, he's only losing to AK/AQ really. I was thinking raise the turn so you can fold the river if he shoves.
Tenderloin is a terrible cut for wagyu. Especially if it was A5 Bc there’s no fat in tenderloin so it’s not worth it at all.
WTF would the order recommend that cut then
@@CrushlivePoker they shouldn’t recommend it. But the top restaurants are gonna take the ribeye and strip. Filet(tenderloin) isn’t worth the upcharge.
Lol it is extreme turning a shitty top pair into a bluff when a flush card comes against a villain who is prob a nit? I must be a maniac lol
So if our read is correct that that CO is a good player and everyone else is a fish than the preflop call is not only fine but probably preferred. We are on the button with a hand that plays fine multiway and why would we want to drive all the easy money out to play only against the toughest opponent? Particularly if we 3bet and get called we are going to be against dominating hands a lot more often. All the comments saying this is an easy 3bet or fold spot are just chart-brained and are trying to mindlessly follow solver work without understanding what any of it means or what we are trying to accomplish in this game. If this was a tougher game I could get behind a 3bet or fold strategy more but we are assuming we are not against super tough opponents that are trying to maximally exploit you therefore you are allowed to buck some of that theory in spots like this.
Flop easy call. Now it is worth noting that if the CO is actually a good player he should not be c-betting very frequently on this board. He absolutely should not be betting hands like 44/55 or backdoor clubs. The thing about the flop is that 5 people got to the flop, even at a full ring table that means more than half the table saw the flop! And to just mindlessly c-bet "because you were the preflop raiser" or whatever is a good way to go broke. If the CO is structuring well he should be betting more like AQ+ and his best spades (Kx or Qx, hands even as strong as JTs should probably be checked. Smaller suited connector spades should absolutely be checked) betting backdoor clubs into 4 opponents is torch city, you could maybe justify KcQc specifically but that is about it.
Turn easy fold. Again if the CO is a competent opponent, he has now raised pre, cbet into 4 opponents and continued on the turn out of position into what should be a pretty strong range that includes 22/33 and 45 and maybe AQ some of the time. Same logic applies on the river. That said, given what the opponents actual hand I would really question the read of him being a good player. Obviously good players can get out of line sometimes but he went full punt city on this one and if he does this with any regularity then you do need to call him down some.
If you’re saying that on the flop villain should only be betting AQ+ and the strongest spades ie KJ, KQ, QJ, couldn’t hero just fold flop?
There’s only 3 hands we’re ahead of in that range.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj well no. For one thing he has way more spade combos then that, probably closer to K8+ and Q9+ (and possibly a few pips more if the assumption that they're isolating wider than equilibrium is correct), plus we are getting both direct odds and implied odds to draw to 3 outs to the effective nuts, 4 more outs to a reasonably strong hand against his range, also we could potentially bluff a stronger ace on some run outs. Plus that is (or at least in the ballpark) what a well structured cbet into 4 opponents would look like, in reality most players are going to be cbetting way more than that.
@@bbtb05 do we have that great implied odds? Any of our outs puts a one liner to a straight out there. And of course, the 2 that put a flush out there are going to make it particularly hard to get value (and might put us behind).
But yeah I guess with all those flush draw combos it’s probably okay to call the small flop bet. I misread what you were saying.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj Not great but good enough for a continue. It's not like we need them to stack off every time to justify the call, we only need to have a reasonable expectation of making another ~$150 (assuming you have 4.5 outs will get you right about this number) to justify the call. But of course you may still just be ahead and just need to hold on and also this spot is further complicated by the fact that we are not closing the action, we still have 3 opponents left to act so it is not a given that we are going to the turn heads up or for $75 total. Fairly hard spot to break down all the variables but I think flatting the $75 is the most reasonable play.
Thanks for the interaction! I do like breaking down these spots the best I can and having my thinking on it challenged.
@@bbtb05 no problem, always good to hear different ways of thinking.
I think the back story to the hand is that the 3 out of position players are calling stations/fish.
So you could argue that they might well stack off with any ace and give hero even better implied odds.
I think on balance I like the flop call 👍
On the river you’re really only losing to ace king and queen so I probably pay off to a player that I believe to be capable of a bluff.
A32 is horrible board for him to barrel IMO
Lot of bluffs ….
I enjoy being called a fish. I like being told that I played the hand wrong. The more insults I receive means the larger my chip stack is growing.
seems like an easy fold on the flop as played
Villain is a dunce. Why you bluff river when all the the Ax pretty much always gonna call now that they think they chopping 😂🤣😂
This could have been less than 5 minutes long. Bart could have just had the guy quickly list off the action and then said "this is why this is a clear 3bet or fold pre when you have 19 to act behind" after every action. End of episode.
Yeah, and more so to your point, it’s hard to get max value with a flush even against a fish. If caller had a small pair i like the call more because a fish will give you their stack if they hit
This flop Cbet is just terrible from the CO
Fan of the channel. As soon as the flop came any sane individual would fold to any bet. A lot of mental gymnastics and three dimensional wishful thinking on dudes part….fold fold fold
He wasn't playing against good player.
Is the display wrong, at 6:39 Bart says you have a backdoor diamond draw, but you don't. A diamond on the flop really changes flop action.
Stopped at 14:20. Without a diamond on the flop, I would have folded the flop. The river does mean you really are only losing to AK and AQ, but you are calling to chop. You jamming will not fold out any A, and anything other than a A will fold, so there is no upside for you.
In mixed tables of good players and fish, when you are up against good players, I've found it more profitable to wait for really good hands, and let the good players bet into me. This is not that spot. The way the hand played, it will lose money over time, even if you get a chop here.
Now, this completely changes if there were a diamond on the flop, a backdoor diamond draw and top pair I call the flop, but I'd likely fold the turn, simply because my hand is not just a buff catcher and there are better spots against better foes.
Another thing to keep in mind in mixed tables, is that having a large stack is important. When you are much deeper than the buy-in, keeping that stack large has value, because now if huge hands against fish, or near nutted hands vs the good players, you make more money.
Marginal spots can reduce you overall win-rate because you don't have as much money.
As played, a river call is likely profitable, because some percentage of the time, there is a bluff here, mostly spade broadway cards, KsJs, JsTs can take this line, especially a good player. They C-Bet the flush draw, pickup equity with the Q to a straight, then bluff the river. But this is going to be a chop more often, but there are more combos of bluffs than Aces that beat you, so (as played) I'd likely call, though again, I'd never be at the river. The board pairing is what will make a call profitable, and over time you can't count on the rare happening.
To much overthinking....i would love to play with you :)))))))) and i make a side bet that i would have good results against :))))
Love how Bart cringed at the uselessness of this anecdote, compounded by the knowledge that this one of the better calls of the day and would probably have to be a video. 😢 🤦
Fucking rough spot from the flop lol