This was really interesting. There are some key factors to this specific hand. We get a back story that tells villain might be tilted. Maybe he hates the hero because of the history. It's also online so we cannot know if the villain is drunk or something. For these reasons I can totally see jamming the river here. With all that said, in a more general "all things being equal" poker spot, I'd never jam. There is no hand that can ever call besides the 56ss. Hero is simply never 4 bet bluffing this river. I agree with Bart that because of the flop action villain *should* never show up with 56ss here. But I'd have to suspect brain damage as the reason for villain to call a 4 bet without it. I know the pot odds are going to be huge so maybe someone convinces themselves they simply *must* call because 5 to 1. But the king high flush is good here 0% of the time, so even if it was 10 to 1 pot odds it's a trivial fold.
This is so spot on, Burt. After 15 years I still get surprised. Two nights ago at Lodge 1-2 (which plays much bigger as you know) while waiting for 1-3 seat to open up. Effective stack 500ish. I straddle 5 UTG. Two loose players limp from EP and MP. SB, a relatively tighter player raises 25. I call with AJo. Both limpers call. Flop T93 two spades. I have the ace of spade. SB cbets 35. I call. EP limper calls. MP limper folds. Pot 205. Turn Jack not spade. SB checks. I check. preflop limper bets 100. SB folds. I call. Pot 400 with 350ish effective (limper stack; I have more) behind. River a small spade completing frontdoor flush. I have the nut flush blocker and my check call twice looks like a fd. So I shove as a bluff thinking JT, J9 sometimes fold. EP limper tanks forever. And reluctantly calls with QJo no spades. I suppose I was value-betting top pair top kicker on T93J2 board when front door flush got there.
Stopped at 10:30. I just jam. While there is a remote possibility he has 5s6s, it would be played very weirdly. Here, you can be called by worse. Often, especially at certain levels, people talk themselves into a call. Ks is going to call you here, so often, that if you don't jam, you are leaving money on the table. If foe wakes up with 5s6s, these things just happen, play and move on, but leaving money on the table in fear of singular hands, means you make far less over time.
I 1000% agree with your assessment. The river is ABSOLUTELY a jam. Ks is almost certainly going to call you given the history provided by the caller. There will be the rare instance where you are shown 5s6s but sometimes you get coolered.
Another advantage to jamming is that he doesn't get to see what you have on the occasions where he is bluffing and you may ratchet up his tilt a couple more notches.
@@aquifer5679 My contention is that the caller sucked out on the turn and river in a big hand previously with the villain. There was a significant chance the villain was on tilt. The hand reveal tends to bear that out. Sure we can get called by better but that is exactly one combination of one hand, the suited connector 5s6s. I'm jamming here all day and if villain happens to show up with the ONLY hand that can beat me, so be it. It's a cooler.
Hey Bart/CLP Crew... Can I ask you to consider 4 colour suits on graphics. I watch via phone, and it's tricky sometimes to see the difference between clubs and spades on the smaller screen. I rarely watch landscape because I like scrolling through the comments.
Someone please explain to me the rationale of ever just calling when you think you're ahead. If you don't think he'll ever call another bet, bet anyway and hope he does, or am I insane? If he doesn't call, whatever, the outcome is the same right? You still win the hand. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. I don't get it. Why just call?
not crazy pills; just lack of consideration. lol...Here: There is no such a thing as 100% sure when there is possibility that you're beat. This regardless of how much one believes he is ahead. So: if you know that only a better hand would call, then no point raising. It's a lose-lose situation to be in. If you want to gamble, plays slots. Poker is not gambling game.
I'm not sure there is much benefit from this hand in general. It is a "private" home game on an app. It is possible villain has no idea how to play poker and is just there for fun. If the villain shows up with 76cc, then I'm sure they can have 56ss for the straight flush as well. Clicking back on the river, is not much of a bluff and wouldn't even be surprised if villain thinks they have the best hand when they pair the 7 on the river, considering they led and 3 bet it. But if I have nut flush against rec's, then I'm piling in the money and if they happen to make a straight flush, they are getting my money and good for them.
I minraise to $318 and snap call a shove. If running a bluff or overvaluing Ks, it gives him some hope that it's my final test of whether he has the nuts. He is not wrong to think that many players will fold all holdings except the straight flush, to a 5 bet river shove. Some bluffers follow through on representing that they have the nuts, regardless of the number of raises. Stacks are shallow enough that I'm willing to be stacked by the one combo that beats me, which he just started representing on the river, in exchange for inducing a possible mistake by anything else he's dug himself into a hole with. I much prefer minraising to shoving with my river 4 bet here. Calling is OK, and against some players you know well, even folding is smart. I know tons of players who would very rarely or never have raised me from $102 to $210 without the straight flush. Most, I'd call anyway, because having them continue to think I'll call a minraise100% of the time with a big hand that's not the nuts, is worth $108 to me. It keeps them honest, and it reduces my cost of calling down in the future also when they minraise more than shove, when it's for value. Training frequent opponents to take lines that are easy for you to decipher and handle, is worth a lot. It is very different than deciding what is the best GTO action against a GTO player.
I jam all day, in these weird spots I could see a tilted player calling with Aces up, 78, and I don’t think Bart considers 56o which there’s 16 combos. Yeah it’s hard to believe he’d check the flop and turn, but then again he bluff minclicked 3! the River with third pair on a four flush runout, so anything’s possible.
Calling is the play for sure. If you 4 bet jam he can't call anyway. If he does have the straight flush you lose the minimum. The only hand that calls the 4 bet is the straight flush. No value is left behind in my opinion.
Not sure why reraising the river is not automatic. There is 0% chance villain puts more money into the pot if hero calls. Hero has 2nd nuts and villain could have 3rd or 4th nuts as played.
Jam all day, we can't be afraid of monsters under the bed. If he has a straight flush, so be it. It's possible it's a spaz w/ the Ks, or air but I'm jamming for value. I mean we lose to 1 combo.
The argument against jamming is he ONLY CALLS that with 56ss. It's 0.1% he has tge straight flush, but he only calls with that. You raised him to what you hoped he'd call. He then raised that back. Be stoked. Call and collect dble your river bet - y donate the max the 1 time he somehow has the strfl?
I can only imagine that this video was created as a troll or test to find out if viewers would debate complete nonsense. In what bizarre world would anyone think this is anything other than a jam? I can't imagine that there could or in this case was a discussion about any other option? When the caller said he just called I almost fell out of my chair. Called 210 with less than 100 behind in fear of exactly 56s....wtf?
so he’s just playing an awful player lol. The call at the end is a little too nitty for my taste but it’s a safe play barring the unlikely straight flush. If the villain had a Ks, hero could’ve taken him to value town which is the more likely scenario. I would JAM 100%
You need to brush up on your math. It is crazy high odds before you are dealt any cards, and before any cards come out on the board. Once the board has the possible straight flush out there, the odds are no longer those crazy high odds before the hand. If you completely forget how the hand was played and just put 2 random cards from the 45 unknown cards into his hand, there is a 2 out of 45 chance (only 21.5 to 1 against) that the first one of them is one of the two needed cards, so that he knows you don't have the straight flush. If he has that, then the odds of him having the other one also, is 1 out of 44. So he has 2 chances (same hand, just received in different order) out of 1980 to have the straight flush. 1 out of 990, aka 989 to 1. If he hasn't looked at his cards and is just a wildman throwing money away playing blind, the odds really are 989 to 1. Most of the 989 other hands don't make it to the river very often, and most of those don't 3-bet the river very often. So, there is a much better chance than 989 to 1 he actually has it, provided that villian is playing even a little bit sensibly. I've seen people play entire hands blind, in casinos, and I've done more than my share of taking their money. One guy, it took 5 hours for him to run out of money playing 4-8 limit holdem playing blind and raising every time the action was on him, EVERY HAND. Every time until he was facing TWO bets cold, actually. When facing two bets, he'd look at his cards and then play well. By not forcing him to face a double raise, you could make every pot you're in be capped (at 4 bets at Foxwoods) on every street if you wanted. He actually ran very lucky, and some top-level (for 4-8 limit) players gave up and left the game! Some players were too dumb to refrain from putting in a second raise before it reached him, and he was actually an excellent player after seeing his cards. I felt like telling them the obvious way to take the most advantage of him, by never doing anything to make him look at his cards but it would have been too close to collusion for my taste, would have made the game less sustainable for him, and would have improved the other players' chances to get a share of his money closer to what I was getting. It worked out perfectly with the dumber ones basically unnecessarily giving money to him, because it prolonged his session, giving me enough time to get way more than my share of both his money and the money he got from them on the hands where they made him look at his cards. The most amazing thing was that a frequent opponent at 10-20 had come over and suggested I leave 10-20 to exploit that special situation. Partly as a courtesy/favor to me, partly to have another sensible player at the table who understood how to keep from ticking the guy off into leaving. We quickly shamed and gave the evil eye to anyone who tried berating his play or giving him a poker lesson, for instance, and did our best to make it a super fun table for the guy to stay at.
@@EfficientRVer Wow that was a really boring story. I want my 5 minutes back. Also, as a rule, I don't take advice from people who play bingo, mahjong, or 4/8 limit.
@@ethannissani7062 consistently winning at 4/8 limit is just as hard as winning at no limit. It's a different game, but just as hard to beat consistently.
You have to jam. There is so much value in tilting villain by making him fold after 3betting river.
Live players all live to put their hero calling capes on
Got to be able to sleep at night 😂
This was really interesting. There are some key factors to this specific hand. We get a back story that tells villain might be tilted. Maybe he hates the hero because of the history. It's also online so we cannot know if the villain is drunk or something. For these reasons I can totally see jamming the river here. With all that said, in a more general "all things being equal" poker spot, I'd never jam.
There is no hand that can ever call besides the 56ss. Hero is simply never 4 bet bluffing this river. I agree with Bart that because of the flop action villain *should* never show up with 56ss here. But I'd have to suspect brain damage as the reason for villain to call a 4 bet without it. I know the pot odds are going to be huge so maybe someone convinces themselves they simply *must* call because 5 to 1. But the king high flush is good here 0% of the time, so even if it was 10 to 1 pot odds it's a trivial fold.
This is so spot on, Burt. After 15 years I still get surprised. Two nights ago at Lodge 1-2 (which plays much bigger as you know) while waiting for 1-3 seat to open up. Effective stack 500ish. I straddle 5 UTG. Two loose players limp from EP and MP. SB, a relatively tighter player raises 25. I call with AJo. Both limpers call. Flop T93 two spades. I have the ace of spade. SB cbets 35. I call. EP limper calls. MP limper folds. Pot 205. Turn Jack not spade. SB checks. I check. preflop limper bets 100. SB folds. I call. Pot 400 with 350ish effective (limper stack; I have more) behind. River a small spade completing frontdoor flush. I have the nut flush blocker and my check call twice looks like a fd. So I shove as a bluff thinking JT, J9 sometimes fold. EP limper tanks forever. And reluctantly calls with QJo no spades. I suppose I was value-betting top pair top kicker on T93J2 board when front door flush got there.
I don’t see the need to turn your hand into a bluff with that much showdown value
After 15 years of playing I stopped talking about bad beat stories 13 years ago
Stopped at 10:30. I just jam. While there is a remote possibility he has 5s6s, it would be played very weirdly. Here, you can be called by worse. Often, especially at certain levels, people talk themselves into a call. Ks is going to call you here, so often, that if you don't jam, you are leaving money on the table. If foe wakes up with 5s6s, these things just happen, play and move on, but leaving money on the table in fear of singular hands, means you make far less over time.
I 1000% agree with your assessment. The river is ABSOLUTELY a jam. Ks is almost certainly going to call you given the history provided by the caller. There will be the rare instance where you are shown 5s6s but sometimes you get coolered.
Another advantage to jamming is that he doesn't get to see what you have on the occasions where he is bluffing and you may ratchet up his tilt a couple more notches.
@@Dynamice1337 That is also a great point.
I guess at some levels people make insane calls with Ks but I feel like if u 3 bet jam here you only get called by better
@@aquifer5679 My contention is that the caller sucked out on the turn and river in a big hand previously with the villain. There was a significant chance the villain was on tilt. The hand reveal tends to bear that out. Sure we can get called by better but that is exactly one combination of one hand, the suited connector 5s6s. I'm jamming here all day and if villain happens to show up with the ONLY hand that can beat me, so be it. It's a cooler.
Hey Bart/CLP Crew... Can I ask you to consider 4 colour suits on graphics. I watch via phone, and it's tricky sometimes to see the difference between clubs and spades on the smaller screen. I rarely watch landscape because I like scrolling through the comments.
Someone please explain to me the rationale of ever just calling when you think you're ahead. If you don't think he'll ever call another bet, bet anyway and hope he does, or am I insane? If he doesn't call, whatever, the outcome is the same right? You still win the hand. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. I don't get it. Why just call?
I agree: you HAVE to give them the opportunity to call off. In this case, I'm not sure jam is the right choice but a raise has to be.
Like I said, this discussion is so ridiculous I'm assuming the entire video is a created troll of some kind. It's just so nonsensical.
There is no raise other than jam, he had 200 something total. It's got to be a joke, flat the 210...are you insane caller?
Odd hand, but anyone with a clue would have to bet 5 6 spades on the turn.
not crazy pills; just lack of consideration. lol...Here: There is no such a thing as 100% sure when there is possibility that you're beat. This regardless of how much one believes he is ahead. So: if you know that only a better hand would call, then no point raising. It's a lose-lose situation to be in.
If you want to gamble, plays slots. Poker is not gambling game.
I'm not sure there is much benefit from this hand in general. It is a "private" home game on an app. It is possible villain has no idea how to play poker and is just there for fun. If the villain shows up with 76cc, then I'm sure they can have 56ss for the straight flush as well. Clicking back on the river, is not much of a bluff and wouldn't even be surprised if villain thinks they have the best hand when they pair the 7 on the river, considering they led and 3 bet it.
But if I have nut flush against rec's, then I'm piling in the money and if they happen to make a straight flush, they are getting my money and good for them.
I strongly believe V is an inexperienced player. So, in that case, yes, jamming river is a sound decision.
I minraise to $318 and snap call a shove. If running a bluff or overvaluing Ks, it gives him some hope that it's my final test of whether he has the nuts. He is not wrong to think that many players will fold all holdings except the straight flush, to a 5 bet river shove. Some bluffers follow through on representing that they have the nuts, regardless of the number of raises. Stacks are shallow enough that I'm willing to be stacked by the one combo that beats me, which he just started representing on the river, in exchange for inducing a possible mistake by anything else he's dug himself into a hole with.
I much prefer minraising to shoving with my river 4 bet here. Calling is OK, and against some players you know well, even folding is smart. I know tons of players who would very rarely or never have raised me from $102 to $210 without the straight flush. Most, I'd call anyway, because having them continue to think I'll call a minraise100% of the time with a big hand that's not the nuts, is worth $108 to me. It keeps them honest, and it reduces my cost of calling down in the future also when they minraise more than shove, when it's for value.
Training frequent opponents to take lines that are easy for you to decipher and handle, is worth a lot. It is very different than deciding what is the best GTO action against a GTO player.
Thanks for the video Burt.
I jam all day, in these weird spots I could see a tilted player calling with Aces up, 78, and I don’t think Bart considers 56o which there’s 16 combos. Yeah it’s hard to believe he’d check the flop and turn, but then again he bluff minclicked 3! the River with third pair on a four flush runout, so anything’s possible.
2:28...to keep the initial raiser in while holding AQo.
Calling is the play for sure. If you 4 bet jam he can't call anyway. If he does have the straight flush you lose the minimum. The only hand that calls the 4 bet is the straight flush. No value is left behind in my opinion.
You can't possibly be serious?
Positive.
@@Nikkithedog-t6b
Do both players really have the ace of spades at the end? V would of had to not cbet flop.
Not sure why reraising the river is not automatic. There is 0% chance villain puts more money into the pot if hero calls. Hero has 2nd nuts and villain could have 3rd or 4th nuts as played.
I wonder if one more click back would’ve made the steamed guy jam.
That's exactly what I would have done. It's half the raise size of a jam anyway.
It wasn't live though?
Jam river because "he might call off" is better than not knowing.
Jam all day, we can't be afraid of monsters under the bed. If he has a straight flush, so be it. It's possible it's a spaz w/ the Ks, or air but I'm jamming for value. I mean we lose to 1 combo.
The argument against jamming is he ONLY CALLS that with 56ss.
It's 0.1% he has tge straight flush, but he only calls with that. You raised him to what you hoped he'd call.
He then raised that back. Be stoked. Call and collect dble your river bet - y donate the max the 1 time he somehow has the strfl?
Villain doesn't believe hero is checking the turn with Ace of spades so he tries to rep it. Fun hand!
I stopped and 10:00 and just click call. Bart is overanalyzed here haha
If he’s a station jam. If he is tighter just call
Sounds like a soft table. 👍🏻
Bart's been in a consistently good mood lately. Bart is you see this, what's going well for you? How's your family doing?
I’m a happy man w a 14 month old boy. I’m teaching him to count (not blackjack just numbers for now)
@@CrushlivePoker good to hear! Hope your wife is doing well, as well!
I can only imagine that this video was created as a troll or test to find out if viewers would debate complete nonsense. In what bizarre world would anyone think this is anything other than a jam? I can't imagine that there could or in this case was a discussion about any other option? When the caller said he just called I almost fell out of my chair. Called 210 with less than 100 behind in fear of exactly 56s....wtf?
At least if dude had a 5 or 6 of spades... And he's staying in to the river just to bluff with the click back raise? Bizarre...
Most people with KQ/KJss can't fold this bad runout.
If you’re not shoving to that River 3bet 100% of the time, you are leaving thousands of dollars on the table.
The effective stack that's left is $200
Kings with a spade? Even then he’s a psycho. AK k of spades? (Haven’t finished video) either way, this is some online poker at its finest loo
Was EZ jam... Zero doubt smh
so he’s just playing an awful player lol. The call at the end is a little too nitty for my taste but it’s a safe play barring the unlikely straight flush. If the villain had a Ks, hero could’ve taken him to value town which is the more likely scenario. I would JAM 100%
Jam all day. If he has 56ss, he can have all my money
This is a goofy hand.
How did this make TH-cam.
Is this really a discussion? 1000% a jam
If villain has 56 of spades he jams, not min clicks. Hero has to go all in here.
because he knows that H is holding As?
poker bros seems shady af
Really ????? Just shove, he has 56ss God bless him , he gets paid.
Monsters under the bed
Damn haters
Seems like a typical online hand with a ridiculous rollout
You jam just to get 56o to call, but honestly it doesn't matter that much. Slight leak.
A 1 in 72193 chance for the villain to have straight flush? Jam and have a cool story to tell if you end up behind.🤦♂
it's way more likely than that that he has the straight flush because of all the hands he is folding before the river, like the 76 of clubs....
You need to brush up on your math. It is crazy high odds before you are dealt any cards, and before any cards come out on the board. Once the board has the possible straight flush out there, the odds are no longer those crazy high odds before the hand.
If you completely forget how the hand was played and just put 2 random cards from the 45 unknown cards into his hand, there is a 2 out of 45 chance (only 21.5 to 1 against) that the first one of them is one of the two needed cards, so that he knows you don't have the straight flush. If he has that, then the odds of him having the other one also, is 1 out of 44. So he has 2 chances (same hand, just received in different order) out of 1980 to have the straight flush. 1 out of 990, aka 989 to 1.
If he hasn't looked at his cards and is just a wildman throwing money away playing blind, the odds really are 989 to 1. Most of the 989 other hands don't make it to the river very often, and most of those don't 3-bet the river very often. So, there is a much better chance than 989 to 1 he actually has it, provided that villian is playing even a little bit sensibly.
I've seen people play entire hands blind, in casinos, and I've done more than my share of taking their money. One guy, it took 5 hours for him to run out of money playing 4-8 limit holdem playing blind and raising every time the action was on him, EVERY HAND. Every time until he was facing TWO bets cold, actually. When facing two bets, he'd look at his cards and then play well. By not forcing him to face a double raise, you could make every pot you're in be capped (at 4 bets at Foxwoods) on every street if you wanted. He actually ran very lucky, and some top-level (for 4-8 limit) players gave up and left the game! Some players were too dumb to refrain from putting in a second raise before it reached him, and he was actually an excellent player after seeing his cards. I felt like telling them the obvious way to take the most advantage of him, by never doing anything to make him look at his cards but it would have been too close to collusion for my taste, would have made the game less sustainable for him, and would have improved the other players' chances to get a share of his money closer to what I was getting. It worked out perfectly with the dumber ones basically unnecessarily giving money to him, because it prolonged his session, giving me enough time to get way more than my share of both his money and the money he got from them on the hands where they made him look at his cards.
The most amazing thing was that a frequent opponent at 10-20 had come over and suggested I leave 10-20 to exploit that special situation. Partly as a courtesy/favor to me, partly to have another sensible player at the table who understood how to keep from ticking the guy off into leaving. We quickly shamed and gave the evil eye to anyone who tried berating his play or giving him a poker lesson, for instance, and did our best to make it a super fun table for the guy to stay at.
@@EfficientRVer What are my odds on a 1 in 30,000,000 lottery if I buy 2 tickets?
@@EfficientRVer Wow that was a really boring story. I want my 5 minutes back. Also, as a rule, I don't take advice from people who play bingo, mahjong, or 4/8 limit.
@@ethannissani7062 consistently winning at 4/8 limit is just as hard as winning at no limit. It's a different game, but just as hard to beat consistently.