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I've noticed that shifting the overhand into more of a pencil grip is how one can gain reach and maneuverability. I feel people think that overhand (and reverse grip for daggers) is exclusively a fist grip saying that underhand (or conventional for daggers) has two (or even more) grips: fist and handshake.

Will share to the group I'm in! Thanks for this!

It would be interesting to see how it looks like with shields that are as big as hoplites had

perhaps it was made up into the waist of an under garment as apposed to a stand alone garment

1:26 russian tie but with swords and armor. i wonder if you could hit russian tie finishes from that position, in particular looking for ways to get behind the opponent and then forcing them down, although actually committing to a 2-on-1 grip is probably a great way to get stabbed in the face unless you're quick about it

fantastic kit you two have!!

How common are dagger disarms when sparring in armor? There’s so little actual historical armoured fencing sparring footage it’s hard to tell what moves common and which ones aw more rare

I think at 5:00 you're dead bro

This kind of fight deserves to have its own tournaments.

TH-cam knew what i wanted before i did, Thanks for the fun vid im definitely sticking around for more!

Cool to see authentic swordfighting. Very nice of you to show those old instrucion drawings

Whoa your Armor and technique looks amazing i might have to get myself more than a helmet soon

ABSOLUTE DRIP GOING ON‼️ Where do you guys practice? Would love to come visit in kit sometime

This is the way Italian renaissance fencing masters, Achille Marozzo & Antonio Manciolino, of the Bolognese tradition instruct on how to use the spear & shield (rotella). Also you can always change from either grip on the go by either balancing it against the shield & your shoulder or underarm/elbow (depends on if you're going from underhand to overhand or the opposite), or clenching the spearshaft in your armpit to then adjust the grip. The former method is faster if trained on while the latter is slower & easier which makes it more reliable.

Great video! Have you tried using any other overhand grips other than the hammer grip? Maybe an overhand version of the handshake grip as an example?

5:12 Yo, this is the kinda strike I was talking about! With the butt so close to your elbow in Posture of Theseus and the shield raised this way, you have a lot of room to cross your spear over and hit the more-vulnerable spear-side. If they don't respect the threats, you can just take the shot like you did here. If they do, it'll often move their shield down, opening up high shots. Good stuff, hope to see more!

pride knight pride knight

I love that! That’s great lol. Knightly dances- the most dignified. ❤

Why such small shields?

This was nice,I hope to see more.

Ator, the Invincible!! hehe what is that round chest piece called, I thought this style is fantasy armor?

I am so glad to see some demonstrations of overhand grip spear and sheild. This has been my preferred style with spear for some time and all I have ever encountered is criticism of it

Lotta people being jerks in the comments. Thought I’d dip in and say cool stuff, I like the video and I agree 👍

Very cool, how long are your spears and speartips?

I really like this spear and shield videos, I would love to see spear and shield vs longsword

When I was a student, the low grip was associated with the phalangists, the change supposedly because of the sarissa being too long to support with just one hand, while retaining the pelta kept the phalangist from imitating the medieval pikeman and raising the pike to shoulder level- that would move the pelta into a completely useless position. The overhead grip was considered the way to hold the doru since anything else made the overlap of the hoplon's in the line imperfect, and Republican Roman Triari used this with the early round top or oval scuta as well. So someone started writing that the art was wrong and hoplites were carrying the doru in a similar position, but one handed, to what the later phalangists did, projecting it back into the past?

not convincing

So, a big part of this controversy stems from a book written by Christopher Matthew back in 2012 that argues against the use of an underhand grip like the one in this video. It’s an interesting read, but the scholarship is more than a little questionable. Paul Bardunias and Fred Ray responded with their own book refuting Matthew’s assertions. I’ve experimented extensively with fighting using hoplite equipment, and I can honestly say that I found both types of grips work great. They are a little different, and each has minor advantages and disadvantages, but nothing that made me feel one was better than the other. Moreover, since they use different muscles, you can switch from one to the other to keep from tiring out too quickly. As for the arguments about which grip can deliver a stronger thrust, both sides claim theirs is able to hit harder. But, having taken hits both ways, I really don’t think it matters much. Either one has more than enough force to ruin your day if it connects with you! To address the argument about hitting the guy behind you when using an overhand grip, I found that it wasn’t much of a problem when using a full sized aspis and a back weighted spear. The rim of the shield kind of keeps you from moving the butt of your spear into a dangerous position. As long as you keep your files straight, I don’t think fighting in formation is hampered by either style of grip.

An artist named vanishlily/ironlily has drawn hoplite art and sources your video BTW!

99 percent of historical and ethnographic sources I know of spear and shield on foot shows spears used this way. The people who claim this doesn’t work honestly need to "git gud".

1:20 Just give it an honest go lol, it works just fine, especially with smaller shields like you're using. You can cross over under your shield the same way you cross over your shield at 0:45. Also, this maneuver covers your sixth point: it parries. The footwork, timing, and balance of it are a bit strange at first, but if you just stick with it and practice it for a while, you can definitely get it. Also, try the position from 0:45 again, except with an underhand grip; this also works fine. Underhand can attack comfortably around a shield from any direction except straight above you, so long as you're strong enough for the spear you're using. Who's saying overhand sucks anyway? I've seen a couple of people say they prefer underhand, and a lot of you saying underhand sucks, but no one actually saying there's no legitimate use case for overhand. I use both for different cases, which is how I think most people see it. The argument here seems to be more aimed at convincing us underhand sucks. Just like people saying overhand sucks likely just don't have the training to do it, people saying underhand sucks just need to train in it more. Just like holding your spear high over your head engages muscles you may not use often, holding your spear at new angles engages and stretches muscles you may not use often. They each require different training, and they both work very well in different circumstances. Try it! It doesn't suck!

I like video but watching you from afar talking is kinda hard for audio

Synthetic tools simply did not exist historically; regardless of any benefits, that's the number one reason why they shouldn't be used for HEMA at all. If you use modern toys, you're just larping. I really don't see any difference between a synthetic sword and a plastic lightsaber kids play with. The same goes for that naff power ranger armour HEMA guys like to wear.

that rounded houndskull is so beautiful. love that visor shape. i have to wonder where he found someone to make it

Your group grows in peeps and skills. Nice! I'm curious, where did Dylan get his brig?

ニャア！！ファイト！！

A fourth point would be that they're more historical, and thus one would be training more like the people of the past did. Afaik steel blunts and feders didn't really come in until the late middle ages. Further, it seems that steel trainers became less common in the 17th-18th centuries; they still existed (mostly foils and rapier foils), but for cut-centric styles, simple sticks were more common (often with a basket hilt). Two interesting examples of wood are: some cavalry sabres based on the 1796 with wood blade and steel guard, and even wooden swords from the bronze age have been found.

Excellent spearmanship!

While I know it is inevitable for blades to clash in the heat of battle, seeing some blade crossings, do you consider things like archaeology of blades to determine if binding was done? I would think binds would be something to try to avoid with bronze (but then this same discussion happens too often in regards to Japanese swordsmanship). Are you considering including Celtic or early Roman stuff in this? If you do, I've heard that the Celtiberians may have focused on thrusting with the falcata, despite its famous broadness.

So I saw the thumbnail and thought "Well, the letter carriers really went hard with their uniforms back then". Cuz I'm apparently an idiot.

Nice, but shouldnt be the shields bigger?

I suppose my new name is Matt haha (Eric here btw)

That's a nice piece of armor (your corazinna/COP) - did you make it yourself, or if not, who did?

I've heard it argued convincingly that the overhand spear position shown on art is artistic and that the traditional spear grip was actually used. Have you tested which one works better?

I would love to get into this kind of thing, but I have no idea where to even start...

Looks great! Do you have access to any reenactment manafactures? in uk we can get a hoplite sheild for 100$

Thanks for the video! This is fascinating. I've been doing Boffer fighting for a while, and used to focus mainly on two-handed spears. Now, I'm trying to train with Hoplomachus-style equipment, which is very similar to/inspired by the styles you're showing here. There are a lot of things to experiment with here, for sure. You mentioned the shield size before, and I think it may be critical to the techniques here. Since you have large vital targets exposed in your upper arms and thighs, it seems to encourage moving your shield forward and turning sideways to minimize possible angles. It turns into something like fencing where you fight for control over center lines and tempo that allow attacks they can't react to. It's very dynamic and quick. What I'm curious about is how small changes to the equipment could change the effective styles. Using a shield large enough to cover your shoulder, for instance, would leave only the head and shins as targets, much farther off the center line. Would using the "clearing" stance with a shield like this be enough to effectively force a stalemate against a spear? Your weight's back, so you can pick your front foot up, and any shots at your head should be glancing. This also brings me to helmets and greaves. I couldn't quite tell; were you counting all head and leg shots? There may be an interesting dynamic (if you were in historical armor) where I think you could face your shins and head correctly to deflect a stab. Instead of fully lifting your shield to parry over your head, is it better to parry up into the side of your helmet? This is amplified even more considering a Hoplomachus's equipment, where a stab to the head is definitely not doing anything more than a blunt push. At first it kinda sounded boring, but I think there could be an interesting dynamic here where all the clear avenues for attack are closed, forcing both sides to create them, which brings me to my next thought lol. The Hoplomachus was depicted as wielding both a shield and a short sword in their left hand, with a spear in their right. This is something I'd really like your opinion on. I've only just started experimenting with incorporating this, but there are some interesting implications. Most of them boil down to presenting a lethal threat when your spear can't; for instance, if you jam a spear between someone and their shield, you can open their guard and stab them yourself instead of needing someone else to do it.

This looks fascinating! I'm going to draw on some of this in writing a fantasy novel, as the weaponry is inspired in some parts by the Classical and Iphikratian (if that's a term) era of Hellenic warfare. Obviously, as you've mentioned in other comments, these shields don't really represent the classical aspis, so would you say this more fits in with the later peltasts as made famous by Iphikrates and others?

I feel like you are just doing hema but with spear and shield. My belief is that this is pretty far of from formation combat of ancient times. Still, nice techniques!

What are the spear made of ?