I was looking at the pottery that had your athena guard on it and it seemed to me as though it was an overhand grip held high. There's are many recreations of the image that draw the hand the other way but on the original pot the palm is facing away from the body. Might be worth experimenting with!
There probably were occasions on the battlefield where hoplites would have fought one-on-one, any formation can lose a guy and have them get isolated. That said hoplons are massive, they can be over 10kg and depending on the region/period those spears could be 9-footers! I wouldn't be at all surprised if when 2 isolated hoplites did meet each other, one of them if not both would simply try to 'guard shuffle' back to their own lines. Overhand strikes even with 7-footers against full sized shields are awkward as hell and guys can often go minutes without getting a hit on each other. Projection tempo on a proper hoplon would also be erratic as hell compared orientations used in formation, they'd be knackered pretty quick.
I agree, especially in archaic period and before it may have broken down more/been more flexible. The shield size is definitely an issue here, but is something we're working on fixing. These spears are 7 feet but fairly light, but I know from experience that getting used to this is something you definitely can do!
This looks fascinating! I'm going to draw on some of this in writing a fantasy novel, as the weaponry is inspired in some parts by the Classical and Iphikratian (if that's a term) era of Hellenic warfare. Obviously, as you've mentioned in other comments, these shields don't really represent the classical aspis, so would you say this more fits in with the later peltasts as made famous by Iphikrates and others?
Thank you! This size of shield (roughly) is definitely seen on lighter troop types, some cavalry, and some Italic peoples in various periods from Archaic to Hellenic, honestly. They're just not what a typical hoplite would be wielding.
It's good to try all the styles and forms in the art they've left to try and recreate how they fought. However, using the smaller and lighter shield and spears changes how they work significantly. The shape of the shield and how it fitted in with your shoulder is an important aspect of fighting with the Aspis, and the Dory is balanced very differently from the spears you were using due to it's use of a back spike. Looks like you had a lot of fun though. Hope you can get the proper gear together and do this again.
Absolutely, gear is a limiting factor. We likely won't change the spears too much other than tryong to balance the weight of the spear tip with the rubber at the back, but an aspis is definitely in the plans.
Thanks! Kopis/machaira in this case but yeah pretty much the same, haha. Both sword trainers we're using are a little mean so we're not going too hard with them.
Hi, nice to see some greek combat. 2 questions come to my mind : Isn't the shield small for an hóplon ? On wich period are you basing your styke? Archaic, Classic, Hellenistic? Or Olympic Hoplomatia?
Thanks for the comments! The shield is definitely small, that is something I plan to work on soon. We're going more for archaic/early classical, though we are looking at sources into thr Hellenistic as well.
I've heard it argued convincingly that the overhand spear position shown on art is artistic and that the traditional spear grip was actually used. Have you tested which one works better?
Absolutely, I much prefer the overhand grip. Many hoplite reenactors would agree and have run tests of one group using one and one group the other. Overhand grip dominates. Cultures around the world use it, it's not artistoc convention.
Underhand is the clearly superior grip, it's more stable, it offers a wider range of options, it makes the thrusts a lot less predictable, the range is a good 1/3 longer, the overhang behind in the formation is a lot shorter and it's the only one actually feasible to use in the phalanx. Overhand is just nicer to depict on vases.
Apparently both were used, and attacking someone with one could often leave them vulnerable to a friend attacking with the other. The underhand grip does have better biomechanics than the javelin grip though. It might be interesting to try the underhand grip with an overhead stance and see how it compares with the javelin grip.
@@corrugatedcavalier5266 You can't extend fully with the javelin grip, your wrist locks up first. With your thumb forward, you can extend fully with a thrust, getting a bit more reach and better control with your strike. I can understand using the javelin grip with a lighter spear, as it far better for throwing, which can be very useful, even in a melee fight. But it does have it's limitations.
@AliasAerius as does underhand grip. Parrying with underhand grip is very difficult, you can only attack from the right side of your body, you have to noticably change angles to go after upper targets vs. lower targets, and you can't throw effectively. The range consideration isn't exactly true either, it all depends precisely how and where you hold the spear. Most people abandon it quickly because they are uncomfortable with it, but it's quite useful.
That's a new one, greek combat based upon sources, continue this course
Will do! We'll continue to document
I was looking at the pottery that had your athena guard on it and it seemed to me as though it was an overhand grip held high. There's are many recreations of the image that draw the hand the other way but on the original pot the palm is facing away from the body. Might be worth experimenting with!
I don't think it's away from the body. I've only found one depiction that is clearly palm out, but it certainly can be done!
There probably were occasions on the battlefield where hoplites would have fought one-on-one, any formation can lose a guy and have them get isolated. That said hoplons are massive, they can be over 10kg and depending on the region/period those spears could be 9-footers! I wouldn't be at all surprised if when 2 isolated hoplites did meet each other, one of them if not both would simply try to 'guard shuffle' back to their own lines. Overhand strikes even with 7-footers against full sized shields are awkward as hell and guys can often go minutes without getting a hit on each other. Projection tempo on a proper hoplon would also be erratic as hell compared orientations used in formation, they'd be knackered pretty quick.
I agree, especially in archaic period and before it may have broken down more/been more flexible. The shield size is definitely an issue here, but is something we're working on fixing. These spears are 7 feet but fairly light, but I know from experience that getting used to this is something you definitely can do!
I'd love to see you do more of this, excellent work and very interesting to use artistic depictions as a foundation for a system. :)
We certainly will, and will document what we find!
Very interesting and extremely innovative - great video!
Thanks! We'll keep going for sure.
This looks fascinating! I'm going to draw on some of this in writing a fantasy novel, as the weaponry is inspired in some parts by the Classical and Iphikratian (if that's a term) era of Hellenic warfare. Obviously, as you've mentioned in other comments, these shields don't really represent the classical aspis, so would you say this more fits in with the later peltasts as made famous by Iphikrates and others?
Thank you! This size of shield (roughly) is definitely seen on lighter troop types, some cavalry, and some Italic peoples in various periods from Archaic to Hellenic, honestly. They're just not what a typical hoplite would be wielding.
I would like to see more of this......when we going again? 🤣🤣
Should definitely find a time!
It's good to try all the styles and forms in the art they've left to try and recreate how they fought. However, using the smaller and lighter shield and spears changes how they work significantly. The shape of the shield and how it fitted in with your shoulder is an important aspect of fighting with the Aspis, and the Dory is balanced very differently from the spears you were using due to it's use of a back spike.
Looks like you had a lot of fun though. Hope you can get the proper gear together and do this again.
Absolutely, gear is a limiting factor. We likely won't change the spears too much other than tryong to balance the weight of the spear tip with the rubber at the back, but an aspis is definitely in the plans.
That looks cool, posture and footwork.
Thank you! Some of the footwork may have become more necessary because of using a smaller shield, but I'm not sure.
I think if the shields where bigger it would help with accuracy, those are almost buckler sized.
@MortdeathMinis yep, bigger shields are on the way. These are roughly rotella sized, which is a Renaissance Italian shield.
Good stuff! Love the falcata ;)
Thanks! Kopis/machaira in this case but yeah pretty much the same, haha. Both sword trainers we're using are a little mean so we're not going too hard with them.
Awesome
Glad you liked it!
nice sparring. cant wait to see more. Maybe some roman styles?
Thanks! Not going into Roman stuff yet but I don't doubt we'll take a look at some
RETREATING POSTURE!
@@powpowpowlo4080 haha yeah I was proud of that moment. It's one we weren't sure if it was just artistic convention or practical
Hi, nice to see some greek combat.
2 questions come to my mind :
Isn't the shield small for an hóplon ?
On wich period are you basing your styke? Archaic, Classic, Hellenistic? Or Olympic Hoplomatia?
Thanks for the comments! The shield is definitely small, that is something I plan to work on soon. We're going more for archaic/early classical, though we are looking at sources into thr Hellenistic as well.
I've heard it argued convincingly that the overhand spear position shown on art is artistic and that the traditional spear grip was actually used. Have you tested which one works better?
Absolutely, I much prefer the overhand grip. Many hoplite reenactors would agree and have run tests of one group using one and one group the other. Overhand grip dominates. Cultures around the world use it, it's not artistoc convention.
its rare i subscribe on my first video i watch from a channel.
Glad you enjoyed it! I mainly do medieval stuff but this is gaining my interest for sure.
@@corrugatedcavalier5266 yeah, personally i think medieval stuff is amazing, and i also do like ancient stuff too!
Same! Also subbed!
Nice, but shouldnt be the shields bigger?
Yes, absolutely. I'll be starting an aspis soon.
@@corrugatedcavalier5266 nice, can't Wait to see IT.
What are the spear made of ?
Skin on rattan with rubber tips and butts from purpleheart armory
@@corrugatedcavalier5266 Thank you!
Underhand is the clearly superior grip, it's more stable, it offers a wider range of options, it makes the thrusts a lot less predictable, the range is a good 1/3 longer, the overhang behind in the formation is a lot shorter and it's the only one actually feasible to use in the phalanx. Overhand is just nicer to depict on vases.
That is absolutely not the case in my opinion and many other people who study combat in the phalanx
Apparently both were used, and attacking someone with one could often leave them vulnerable to a friend attacking with the other. The underhand grip does have better biomechanics than the javelin grip though. It might be interesting to try the underhand grip with an overhead stance and see how it compares with the javelin grip.
@@AliasAerius I disagree that the underhand grip has "better" biomechanics. Easier for untrained people? Sure. Better? Absolutely not.
@@corrugatedcavalier5266 You can't extend fully with the javelin grip, your wrist locks up first. With your thumb forward, you can extend fully with a thrust, getting a bit more reach and better control with your strike.
I can understand using the javelin grip with a lighter spear, as it far better for throwing, which can be very useful, even in a melee fight. But it does have it's limitations.
@AliasAerius as does underhand grip. Parrying with underhand grip is very difficult, you can only attack from the right side of your body, you have to noticably change angles to go after upper targets vs. lower targets, and you can't throw effectively. The range consideration isn't exactly true either, it all depends precisely how and where you hold the spear. Most people abandon it quickly because they are uncomfortable with it, but it's quite useful.