Five Reasons Why Overhand/Javelin Grip DOESN'T SUCK!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 มิ.ย. 2024
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Photo British Museum: www.britishmuseum.org/collect...
Paper Quoted: 'Twas When My Shield Turned Traitor!' Establishing the Combat Effectiveness of the Greek Hoplite Shield - Kevin Rowan De Groote, 2016 - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
Will share to the group I'm in! Thanks for this!
My pleasure!
This is the way Italian renaissance fencing masters, Achille Marozzo & Antonio Manciolino, of the Bolognese tradition instruct on how to use the spear & shield (rotella). Also you can always change from either grip on the go by either balancing it against the shield & your shoulder or underarm/elbow (depends on if you're going from underhand to overhand or the opposite), or clenching the spearshaft in your armpit to then adjust the grip. The former method is faster if trained on while the latter is slower & easier which makes it more reliable.
Yep, their partisan & rotella stuff helps with my practical interpretation of earlier styles since we have very little info. Marozzo has a grip change off of a feinted throw, which is pretty fun.
99 percent of historical and ethnographic sources I know of spear and shield on foot shows spears used this way. The people who claim this doesn’t work honestly need to "git gud".
I've noticed that shifting the overhand into more of a pencil grip is how one can gain reach and maneuverability. I feel people think that overhand (and reverse grip for daggers) is exclusively a fist grip saying that underhand (or conventional for daggers) has two (or even more) grips: fist and handshake.
Yeah I shift into that during use sometimes, if I know what you mean.
So, a big part of this controversy stems from a book written by Christopher Matthew back in 2012 that argues against the use of an underhand grip like the one in this video. It’s an interesting read, but the scholarship is more than a little questionable. Paul Bardunias and Fred Ray responded with their own book refuting Matthew’s assertions.
I’ve experimented extensively with fighting using hoplite equipment, and I can honestly say that I found both types of grips work great. They are a little different, and each has minor advantages and disadvantages, but nothing that made me feel one was better than the other. Moreover, since they use different muscles, you can switch from one to the other to keep from tiring out too quickly.
As for the arguments about which grip can deliver a stronger thrust, both sides claim theirs is able to hit harder. But, having taken hits both ways, I really don’t think it matters much. Either one has more than enough force to ruin your day if it connects with you!
To address the argument about hitting the guy behind you when using an overhand grip, I found that it wasn’t much of a problem when using a full sized aspis and a back weighted spear. The rim of the shield kind of keeps you from moving the butt of your spear into a dangerous position. As long as you keep your files straight, I don’t think fighting in formation is hampered by either style of grip.
Yep, I intend to agree with all of that. Im formation fighting, did you ise a sharp sauroter? Just curious.
As to the power, the paper mentioned is an actual studymeasurimg depth of penetratuon and force in joules from multiple participants of different builds and physicality. Overhand/javelin grip was found to have more force and more depth of penetration in all fields. Now, does that matter? If you're hitting unarmored flesh, no. Otherwise it certainly could. But yes,I agree both have their place.
@@corrugatedcavalier5266 no, definitely didn’t use a sharp sauroter, as this was full contact sparring, and I like to think I’m not that much of an idiot! 😝
As for the force of impact from spear thrusts, someone really needs to put together a few sets of armor and just go to town on them with an accurate dory. Maybe someday I’ll have academic funding and get to do that! But I can confidently say that even with training-safe equipment, a decent jab from a spear to the head was more than enough to drop me like a marionette with the strings cut! 🤣
@@danielavetta2341 Gotcha, I wasn't sure if it was sparring or more like, experimentation. Yes, please don't use sharp sauroter in sparring haha
When I was a student, the low grip was associated with the phalangists, the change supposedly because of the sarissa being too long to support with just one hand, while retaining the pelta kept the phalangist from imitating the medieval pikeman and raising the pike to shoulder level- that would move the pelta into a completely useless position. The overhead grip was considered the way to hold the doru since anything else made the overlap of the hoplon's in the line imperfect, and Republican Roman Triari used this with the early round top or oval scuta as well. So someone started writing that the art was wrong and hoplites were carrying the doru in a similar position, but one handed, to what the later phalangists did, projecting it back into the past?
Huh, I had never considered that aspect!
An artist named vanishlily/ironlily has drawn hoplite art and sources your video BTW!
I saw! I follow them on Twitter/X
1:20 Just give it an honest go lol, it works just fine, especially with smaller shields like you're using. You can cross over under your shield the same way you cross over your shield at 0:45. Also, this maneuver covers your sixth point: it parries. The footwork, timing, and balance of it are a bit strange at first, but if you just stick with it and practice it for a while, you can definitely get it. Also, try the position from 0:45 again, except with an underhand grip; this also works fine. Underhand can attack comfortably around a shield from any direction except straight above you, so long as you're strong enough for the spear you're using.
Who's saying overhand sucks anyway? I've seen a couple of people say they prefer underhand, and a lot of you saying underhand sucks, but no one actually saying there's no legitimate use case for overhand. I use both for different cases, which is how I think most people see it. The argument here seems to be more aimed at convincing us underhand sucks. Just like people saying overhand sucks likely just don't have the training to do it, people saying underhand sucks just need to train in it more. Just like holding your spear high over your head engages muscles you may not use often, holding your spear at new angles engages and stretches muscles you may not use often. They each require different training, and they both work very well in different circumstances.
Try it! It doesn't suck!
A lot of people have said it doesn't work or is only an artistic convention. I've tried what you mention. I don't like it personally, but sure, you could technically do it.
@@corrugatedcavalier5266 We're looking at artwork of people who practiced this a lot more than any of us. If we can manage a technique, they can likely do it better. If we can't manage a technique, it's possibly because we don't have the training, fitness, or equipment for it. The way you're exploring the possibilities through examples from artwork is amazing, as it shows us some of the possibilities available to our ancestors. The way you're saying some things aren't possible for others to do because you don't like them personally is wrong; you can't conclude that from this experience.
@themekahippie991 I didn't say it was impossible. In fact I said the opposite. I consider the drawbacks of attempting the action as outweighing the potential benefits. Either way, you would need a significant grip change unless you are using a drastically rear weighted spear.
@@corrugatedcavalier5266 "I didn't say it was impossible." "Parrying with underhand grip is very difficult, you can only attack from the right side of your body..." You pretty clearly stated there and at 1:20 that you didn't think it was possible to do "unless you do something really weird". Instead, what you should say is, "With my current training, fitness, and equipment, I'm unable to reproduce these techniques, but that doesn't necessarily mean they can't be done or are infeasible."
The same way folks should stop bashing overhand techniques just because they don't understand them, you should stop bashing underhand techniques just because you don't understand it. No one here is a trained warrior lol, no one has the expertise to say a technique is just bad or even to say which are better. All you can say is, "Yea, I can get this to work for me." Keep it positive.
@themekahippie991 Show me. I've never seen anyone do that and have never seen that technique described in a historical source. I'm not sure what specific athletic components you believe I lack to perform the technique.
I like video but watching you from afar talking is kinda hard for audio
Yeah, it was a bit noisy. Might be time for a lapel mic!
@@corrugatedcavalier5266 or presenting in room or smth
Lotta people being jerks in the comments. Thought I’d dip in and say cool stuff, I like the video and I agree 👍
Thanks for the kind words! I don't mind disagreement as long as people are being cool.
not convincing
Cool, watch some of our sparring videos, then!
@@corrugatedcavalier5266 well then, i will.