Note: As I said in the video, there are a number of ways to correct run out error. A small alignment knocker is one of those. Check out how to make one at the end of the video. Cheers Rob
Hi Rob. Anyone who watches my channel knows I'm a complete collet convert, thanks to you. Use them on the lathe in the headstock and tailstock, in the mill and my tapping guide. With the stuff that I make super high levels of accuracy are seldom required but the other advantage of collets is. That being, that they don't mark or damage the work in any way. Using them in the tailstock to hold drill bits completely removes any chance of chewing the bit up which can happen with Jacobs chucks. Also, of course, you can hold threads without any risk of damage. ER32 collet sets are cheap as chips on Banggood, now they may not be the best in the world but for the hobbyshop user they are great, Cheers, Alan.
Hi Alan. Like all things, you get what you pay for. Having said that, even the worst collets I've used have been better than most chucks for that work size. Then of course there is the no mark work feature, which is probably the main draw card overall. Some people bag Chinese collets, but they are not all of the same quality. I have good and I have a bad set. Spend more, get better, it works the same for most products. Enjoy. Cheers Rob.
I so agree with you Rob. The precision of ER collets is only as good as the effort you put in to reduce run out error by your own incremental adjustments. I am a great fan of ER collets and use them in favour of chucks where I can. 👏👏👍😎
Good information there. I have been using ER collets for a long time. Advantages are accuracy for the price, good uniform clamping due to the alternating splits - even better with a bearing nut, low overhang, and more. One tip is to deburr them from new. Take off all the sharp edges, especially from cheap colletts, make the smooth to handle. Regularly clean them. Stefan Gotteswinter had done a useful video on this, even using an ultrasonic cleaner to chase the microns.
Hi Rob ! You're quite right ... don't ask me how I know 🙂 ... and YES you destroy the collet if you use only a minor part of the collet ! Cheers Keld from Denmark
The ER32 and ER8 collet sets I've imported have been a lot better than I need them to be. I don't use them exclusively but particularly on my little mill they're great for making the most of the limited Z height.
Hi,Rob. Useful advice for those unfamiliar with using ER collets. I have loads of varying diameter short steel slugs to go in the rear of the collet when I have to grip workpieces that are too short to span the full collet depth. I also mount my collet chuck in the 4 jaw chuck and that enables me to adjust the workpiece and collet chuck for best concentricity.
@@Xynudu Yes,I also sometimes mount the square collet block in the 4 jaw and then transfer it over to the milling vise complete with the component if there is a cross hole to drill or flats to mill.
great insight in to working of collets Rob👍👍 will help many people, i know many swear by collets, i myself generally use a 4 jaw chuck, probably coz i'm too tight to buy any🤔🤔🤣🤣 atb Kev (uk)
Hi Kev. Chucks and collets both have their place in the workshop. Collets are something most people will never try, but when they do, they become true believers. Just like me. Cheers Rob
One of the best tips you gave me a while back was to use a collet chuck instead of a drill chuck on the drill press and lathe , no more chewed up drill shanks- I just wish I could get a collet chuck for my battery drill , that mongrel destroys drill shanks !
Hi Ian. A lot of cordless drills only have keyless chucks, many with plastic bodies, and they are usually B grade gripping units. However, there are a few quality ones around with metal keyed chucks, which must be way better. Retro fitting an ER collet chuck accurately would be a bit tricky I think. Cheers Rob
I don't use collets very often and only in the mill but it seems so obvious to grip the entire length, otherwise it's like trying to grip a drill using only 5mm of the drill length
Hi Bill. Yes that's a similar situation. I only did the video in response to the original comment I refered to, which showed a lack of understanding of how ER collets work. I'm not criticising the person, but using it as a trigger for a bit of skool time that may benefit other people. Sometimes we have no option, but to use only part of the gripping mechanism of the tool in question, but people should be aware of the issues that raises. Cheers Rob
Interesting Rob. Many things to keep in mind .was thinking of getting collets to hold a ring mandrel . Now I know mandrel shaft will have to be longer than collet. Thanks for info .At the moment I put a piece of bar in the 3 jaw and turn to fit dia of ring with a slight step to hold ring flat with chuck . Good for one off.
Hi Colum. Yes you can easily get trapped with this stuff. It's not always as simple as it seems. 5C collets don't distort as much, but that's because they are designed differently and don't compress any where near as much. Basically to use 5C the job has to be at the nominal size. Cheers Rob
Some very good advice Rob. I mostly use collets on the milling machine. Aways push the end mills in as far as they go. I do have an er32 collet chuck for the lathe, but confess I don't use it very often. I'm going to use it more in the future. Cheers Nobby
This is where that second smaller lathe of yours will come in handy Nobby. Have it set up for collets (which usually do small work) as an alternative machine. That's what I do with the old Schaublin seen in the video. Super useful way to go. Cheers Rob
When you do get around to mounting the collet chuck on a backplate for the lathe leave a few thou of radial play/slack so you can tap and clock the chuck to get true workpiece concentricity. I always mount my collet chuck in the 4 jaw chuck and that way I can adjust it in small increments for concentricity.
Our CNC router uses ER32 collets. If the tool isn't inserted far enough it can work it's way out while running. I've seen it happen! A 1/2" X 6" carbide router bit coming out @ 14,000 rpm is right scarry. Operator tried to get another 1/2" depth of cut! For small, short work I use 5C collets on the metal lathe. They grip at the very outside end of the collet.
Hi Larry. Interesting. Sounds like the collet is at the limit of it's compression range for that to happen. 5C have very limited compression range and you have to work at the nominal size for them to grip. I use W20 which are very similar. OK for industry where you are using set sized work. 5C do allow the use and grip of non round work (with the appropriately shaped collet centre), which ER cannot do. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu 1/2" collet, 1/2" carbide bit but only into the collet part way. Feed 600"/min. Likely caused vibration. Even if the collet only compressed very slightly more on the empty area it would cause the bit to be gripped more on the end furthest in the collet resulting in a squeeze out condition. My use of 5C collets is for small work and always close to nominal collet size. I like the smooth nose of the 5C chuck for getting my hands right close to polish the work. I have a few square and hex 5C collets also. I use my ER40 chuck for longer or heavier work. I really prefer using collet chucks over scroll chucks because it is so easy to use an internal depth stop for repeated operations. Collets also grip threads w/o damaging them, very handy.
Hi Rob. Like you I use my ER32 mill collets in the lathe to hold small diameters. I have made a special adaptor to hold the flanged ER32 collet chuck like yours. It is held in a three jaw chuck. I have four cap screws with the heads protruding on the back side. These fit into a recess in the mating plate. I have four radial adjusting screws so by loosening the clamp bolts on the front, I can move the collet assembly around like a four jaw chuck. This way I can reduce my radial runout to zero. Cheers
Hi John. That's a great idea. Yes, shades of four jaw chuck there. Errors can usually be eradicated if you want to put in the effort. Thanks for the comment. Cheers Rob
Hi Rob, I didn’t know jobs had to go right through the collets so thanks for that. Recently I watched a video by DazeCars that I think you may find interesting. He recommends using a bearing collet holder and I have bought one to try. It’s only just arrived so I haven’t had time to try it out yet but it seems well made. Cheers and thanks, Stuart. Canberra.
Hi Stuart. I haven't used a ball bearing nose cap collet chuck. I believe they allow greater tightening/grip pressure with less effort than a regular one. The last time I looked they were considerably more expensive. Let's know what you think of it versus the regular type. Good for a video. Cheers Rob
The work has to be inserted to the full depth of the collet gripping surface or the collet will compress more at the rear end than the outer face causing the collet to effectively close in a tapered manner rather than parallel to the work. The trick with short work holding is to use a short slug of bar the same diameter as the workpiece and set it at the rear of the collet jaws. Example: if you need to grip a short piece of work of 10mm dia then you need to place a short slug of 10mm dia rod at the rear of the collet to keep the jaws parallel.
Good demonstration of how things can go wrong if ER collets are abused. If I have to hold a workpiece half way, I usually turn a blank around the same diameter and use that to even out the closing pressure. Also I used a ball bearing to align workpiece in those scenarios.
Good info, Rob. I have an ER40 lathe chuck and two collets, but I've never used it so far. I might do a test on it using some of your pointers. It'll be interesting to see how accurate it is. Yes, it's Chinese, lol. Cheers Tony
Hi Tony. This compression issue applies to all ER collets regardless of price or where they are manufactured. Certainly some ER collets from China are pretty B grade, but some are also very good. It all depends on where you buy them and how much you spend. I find CTC Tools on the web sell DIN rated Chinese gear which is on spec. My original metric set came from them and is totally accurate. Most on line sellers don't even quote a DIN figure (probably for good reason) so stay well away from them. Cheers Rob
@Xynudu Thanks Rob for that very important information. That's the reason I've avoided buying any collets. Now, I'll look for the DIN specification when I buy some. I don't mind paying extra if I know they are going to be over a specific standard. More accurate for my experience, but I hate working with trash. It induces problems. Cheers Tony
Hi Tony. This is the only company I would consider for budget collet tooling : www.ctctools.biz/ I bought my original Chinese metric set from them 20 years ago and they were to spec. I haven't bought anything from them recently and have no affiliation with the company, but I have seen very little negative comment in forums about them. They were originally based in Hong Kong, but are now shipping out of Europe I believe. Good luck. Their prices are quite reasonable. Cheers Rob
There is a reason ER collets and holders from a manufacturer not too ashamed to put their name on their collets cost five time as much as Chinese mystery collets. Name brand tooling is guaranteed to meet a published specification. Buying cheap Chinese ER collets is about like buying a pig in a poke. You might get collets you can use or you might get collets like the two sets I have that are so bad you don't need an indicator to see the runout. They do make attractive paper weights though. In the home shop you can take the time to do the things shown in the video to help the situation. If you are using ER collets and holders to make a living this stuff has to be spot-on out of the box... dependably. Dependable and Chinese should never be used in the same sentence.
You will get the same error result by using half the collet length, regardless of how much you paid or who made them. All of my collets are made in China. The Banggood ones were pretty variable and not recommended. The CTC Tools bought ones are totally accurate and to spec. You get what you pay for. End of story. Cheers Rob
That's a silly uninformed view. You can get high quality tooling from China but you have to pay more. When things are built to a price point, corners have to be cut. No free lunches.
@@HM-Projects You've probably never bought any custom-built die sets from China. Or more precisely had to rebuild new custom-built die sets from China. The only way I know to get reliably good products from China is to hire some Japanese or Koreans to stand there and watch them like a hawk. The Chinese mentality in business is to sell you what they think they can get away with. Caveat emptor.
You can most certainly get dependable quality collets from Chinese manufacturers. It simply depends on who you buy from and how much you're willing to pay for good quality.
Note: As I said in the video, there are a number of ways to correct run out error. A small alignment knocker is one of those. Check out how to make one at the end of the video. Cheers Rob
Hi Rob. Anyone who watches my channel knows I'm a complete collet convert, thanks to you. Use them on the lathe in the headstock and tailstock, in the mill and my tapping guide. With the stuff that I make super high levels of accuracy are seldom required but the other advantage of collets is. That being, that they don't mark or damage the work in any way. Using them in the tailstock to hold drill bits completely removes any chance of chewing the bit up which can happen with Jacobs chucks. Also, of course, you can hold threads without any risk of damage. ER32 collet sets are cheap as chips on Banggood, now they may not be the best in the world but for the hobbyshop user they are great, Cheers, Alan.
Hi Alan. Like all things, you get what you pay for. Having said that, even the worst collets I've used have been better than most chucks for that work size. Then of course there is the no mark work feature, which is probably the main draw card overall. Some people bag Chinese collets, but they are not all of the same quality. I have good and I have a bad set. Spend more, get better, it works the same for most products. Enjoy. Cheers Rob.
Having just bought my first set of ER40 collets and testing them,
this has been very informative, thank you so much,
cheers from Florida, USA, Paul
I so agree with you Rob. The precision of ER collets is only as good as the effort you put in to reduce run out error by your own incremental adjustments. I am a great fan of ER collets and use them in favour of chucks where I can. 👏👏👍😎
Hi Andrew. Yes, collets are very good. Minimal work marking danger and great accuracy. Chucks have their place though. Cheers Rob
Good information there. I have been using ER collets for a long time. Advantages are accuracy for the price, good uniform clamping due to the alternating splits - even better with a bearing nut, low overhang, and more.
One tip is to deburr them from new. Take off all the sharp edges, especially from cheap colletts, make the smooth to handle. Regularly clean them. Stefan Gotteswinter had done a useful video on this, even using an ultrasonic cleaner to chase the microns.
Yes, totally agree. It's vital that users clean them each time. Cheers Rob
Regular cleaning of the slots with a piece of thin shim stock also helps keep collets gripping accurately.
Yes. Cleanliness is essential with collets. I mainly use compressed air, but old feeler gauge shims work well when the air is not on. Cheers Rob
Hi Rob !
You're quite right ... don't ask me how I know 🙂
... and YES you destroy the collet if you use only a minor part of the collet !
Cheers
Keld from Denmark
Hi Keld. Good to hear from you. Thanks for the feedback. Cheers Rob
Thanks for sharing.
good tips rob..
Good demonstration Rob--Thanks for sharing!
Hi Rick. My pleasure!
G'day Rob, yeah nicely explained mate, thanks for sharing buddy
Glad you enjoyed it Ralfy. Cheers Rob
The ER32 and ER8 collet sets I've imported have been a lot better than I need them to be. I don't use them exclusively but particularly on my little mill they're great for making the most of the limited Z height.
Even the worst collets are better than most chucks, for that size range ;) Cheers Rob
Hi,Rob. Useful advice for those unfamiliar with using ER collets.
I have loads of varying diameter short steel slugs to go in the rear of the collet when I have to grip workpieces that are too short to span the full collet depth.
I also mount my collet chuck in the 4 jaw chuck and that enables me to adjust the workpiece and collet chuck for best concentricity.
Hi Howard. Good techniques. I have used a collet block in the four jaw chuck at times, mainly for doing eccentrics. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu Yes,I also sometimes mount the square collet block in the 4 jaw and then transfer it over to the milling vise complete with the component if there is a cross hole to drill or flats to mill.
great insight in to working of collets Rob👍👍
will help many people, i know many swear by collets, i myself generally use a 4 jaw chuck, probably coz i'm too tight to buy any🤔🤔🤣🤣
atb
Kev (uk)
Hi Kev. Chucks and collets both have their place in the workshop. Collets are something most people will never try, but when they do, they become true believers. Just like me. Cheers Rob
One of the best tips you gave me a while back was to use a collet chuck instead of a drill chuck on the drill press and lathe , no more chewed up drill shanks- I just wish I could get a collet chuck for my battery drill , that mongrel destroys drill shanks !
Hi Ian. A lot of cordless drills only have keyless chucks, many with plastic bodies, and they are usually B grade gripping units. However, there are a few quality ones around with metal keyed chucks, which must be way better. Retro fitting an ER collet chuck accurately would be a bit tricky I think. Cheers Rob
I don't use collets very often and only in the mill but it seems so obvious to grip the entire length, otherwise it's like trying to grip a drill using only 5mm of the drill length
Hi Bill. Yes that's a similar situation. I only did the video in response to the original comment I refered to, which showed a lack of understanding of how ER collets work. I'm not criticising the person, but using it as a trigger for a bit of skool time that may benefit other people. Sometimes we have no option, but to use only part of the gripping mechanism of the tool in question, but people should be aware of the issues that raises. Cheers Rob
Interesting Rob.
Many things to keep in mind .was thinking of getting collets to hold a ring mandrel . Now I know mandrel shaft will have to be longer than collet. Thanks for info .At the moment I put a piece of bar in the 3 jaw and turn to fit dia of ring with a slight step to hold ring flat with chuck . Good for one off.
Hi Colum. Yes you can easily get trapped with this stuff. It's not always as simple as it seems. 5C collets don't distort as much, but that's because they are designed differently and don't compress any where near as much. Basically to use 5C the job has to be at the nominal size. Cheers Rob
Some very good advice Rob. I mostly use collets on the milling machine. Aways push the end mills in as far as they go. I do have an er32 collet chuck for the lathe, but confess I don't use it very often. I'm going to use it more in the future. Cheers Nobby
This is where that second smaller lathe of yours will come in handy Nobby. Have it set up for collets (which usually do small work) as an alternative machine. That's what I do with the old Schaublin seen in the video. Super useful way to go. Cheers Rob
When you do get around to mounting the collet chuck on a backplate for the lathe leave a few thou of radial play/slack so you can tap and clock the chuck to get true workpiece concentricity. I always mount my collet chuck in the 4 jaw chuck and that way I can adjust it in small increments for concentricity.
It also saves swapping out chucks, which can be a real chore on large lathes.
Check the slits on the cheap collets, they can be cut bad, it's easy to see. Ditch those ones they will never compress right, no clean run out 👍👌🇦🇺
And use a dial gauge 😅👍👌🇦🇺
Yes, very true. Also make sure to blow collets out with air to remove crud after use or you will get the same effect. Cheers Rob
Our CNC router uses ER32 collets. If the tool isn't inserted far enough it can work it's way out while running. I've seen it happen! A 1/2" X 6" carbide router bit coming out @ 14,000 rpm is right scarry. Operator tried to get another 1/2" depth of cut! For small, short work I use 5C collets on the metal lathe. They grip at the very outside end of the collet.
Hi Larry. Interesting. Sounds like the collet is at the limit of it's compression range for that to happen. 5C have very limited compression range and you have to work at the nominal size for them to grip. I use W20 which are very similar. OK for industry where you are using set sized work. 5C do allow the use and grip of non round work (with the appropriately shaped collet centre), which ER cannot do. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu 1/2" collet, 1/2" carbide bit but only into the collet part way. Feed 600"/min. Likely caused vibration. Even if the collet only compressed very slightly more on the empty area it would cause the bit to be gripped more on the end furthest in the collet resulting in a squeeze out condition. My use of 5C collets is for small work and always close to nominal collet size. I like the smooth nose of the 5C chuck for getting my hands right close to polish the work. I have a few square and hex 5C collets also. I use my ER40 chuck for longer or heavier work. I really prefer using collet chucks over scroll chucks because it is so easy to use an internal depth stop for repeated operations. Collets also grip threads w/o damaging them, very handy.
Hi Rob. Like you I use my ER32 mill collets in the lathe to hold small diameters. I have made a special adaptor to hold the flanged ER32 collet chuck like yours. It is held in a three jaw chuck. I have four cap screws with the heads protruding on the back side. These fit into a recess in the mating plate. I have four radial adjusting screws so by loosening the clamp bolts on the front, I can move the collet assembly around like a four jaw chuck. This way I can reduce my radial runout to zero. Cheers
Hi John. That's a great idea. Yes, shades of four jaw chuck there. Errors can usually be eradicated if you want to put in the effort. Thanks for the comment. Cheers Rob
I just mount my disc type collet chuck in the 4 jaw and adjust for best concentricity. Slightly different method but the same outcome as yours.
Hi Rob, I didn’t know jobs had to go right through the collets so thanks for that. Recently I watched a video by DazeCars that I think you may find interesting. He recommends using a bearing collet holder and I have bought one to try. It’s only just arrived so I haven’t had time to try it out yet but it seems well made. Cheers and thanks, Stuart. Canberra.
Hi Stuart. I haven't used a ball bearing nose cap collet chuck. I believe they allow greater tightening/grip pressure with less effort than a regular one. The last time I looked they were considerably more expensive. Let's know what you think of it versus the regular type. Good for a video. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu I use a ball bearing collet nut on my ER40 chuck. It requires a lot less effort to grip very firmly than a standard ER collet nut.
The work has to be inserted to the full depth of the collet gripping surface or the collet will compress more at the rear end than the outer face causing the collet to effectively close in a tapered manner rather than parallel to the work. The trick with short work holding is to use a short slug of bar the same diameter as the workpiece and set it at the rear of the collet jaws. Example: if you need to grip a short piece of work of 10mm dia then you need to place a short slug of 10mm dia rod at the rear of the collet to keep the jaws parallel.
Logical.
Good demonstration of how things can go wrong if ER collets are abused. If I have to hold a workpiece half way, I usually turn a blank around the same diameter and use that to even out the closing pressure. Also I used a ball bearing to align workpiece in those scenarios.
Yes, that's the usual approach. So how does the ball bearing aid alignment ?
@@Xynudu it's similar to the hand knocker but since it runs relatively true as long as there's axial alignment it pushes the workpiece to alignment.
OK. Now I understand. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu I was looking for this video I made a while back, my import collets aren't that good th-cam.com/video/TjqLgYroqWE/w-d-xo.html
Good video. Looks to work well. Very similar to a face alignment tool. I will make one like yours and test it out. Thanks for posting. Cheers Rob
Good info, Rob. I have an ER40 lathe chuck and two collets, but I've never used it so far. I might do a test on it using some of your pointers. It'll be interesting to see how accurate it is. Yes, it's Chinese, lol. Cheers Tony
Hi Tony. This compression issue applies to all ER collets regardless of price or where they are manufactured. Certainly some ER collets from China are pretty B grade, but some are also very good. It all depends on where you buy them and how much you spend. I find CTC Tools on the web sell DIN rated Chinese gear which is on spec. My original metric set came from them and is totally accurate. Most on line sellers don't even quote a DIN figure (probably for good reason) so stay well away from them. Cheers Rob
@Xynudu Thanks Rob for that very important information. That's the reason I've avoided buying any collets. Now, I'll look for the DIN specification when I buy some. I don't mind paying extra if I know they are going to be over a specific standard. More accurate for my experience, but I hate working with trash. It induces problems. Cheers Tony
Hi Tony. This is the only company I would consider for budget collet tooling : www.ctctools.biz/
I bought my original Chinese metric set from them 20 years ago and they were to spec. I haven't bought anything from them recently and have no affiliation with the company, but I have seen very little negative comment in forums about them. They were originally based in Hong Kong, but are now shipping out of Europe I believe. Good luck. Their prices are quite reasonable. Cheers Rob
@Xynudu Cheers Rob.👍
I have collets and chucks.
A wise move. They both have their uses. Cheers Rob
There is a reason ER collets and holders from a manufacturer not too ashamed to put their name on their collets cost five time as much as Chinese mystery collets. Name brand tooling is guaranteed to meet a published specification. Buying cheap Chinese ER collets is about like buying a pig in a poke.
You might get collets you can use or you might get collets like the two sets I have that are so bad you don't need an indicator to see the runout. They do make attractive paper weights though.
In the home shop you can take the time to do the things shown in the video to help the situation. If you are using ER collets and holders to make a living this stuff has to be spot-on out of the box... dependably. Dependable and Chinese should never be used in the same sentence.
You will get the same error result by using half the collet length, regardless of how much you paid or who made them. All of my collets are made in China. The Banggood ones were pretty variable and not recommended. The CTC Tools bought ones are totally accurate and to spec. You get what you pay for. End of story. Cheers Rob
That's a silly uninformed view. You can get high quality tooling from China but you have to pay more. When things are built to a price point, corners have to be cut. No free lunches.
@@HM-Projects You've probably never bought any custom-built die sets from China. Or more precisely had to rebuild new custom-built die sets from China. The only way I know to get reliably good products from China is to hire some Japanese or Koreans to stand there and watch them like a hawk. The Chinese mentality in business is to sell you what they think they can get away with. Caveat emptor.
@@HM-Projects Uninformed? You just said the same thing as Rob using different words
You can most certainly get dependable quality collets from Chinese manufacturers. It simply depends on who you buy from and how much you're willing to pay for good quality.