Beginner's Guide To Collets
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.พ. 2024
- This episode on Blondihacks, I’m talkin' collets! Exclusive videos, drawings, models & plans available on Patreon!
/ quinndunki
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An important detail on double slit collets like the ER-32 is that it needs a minimum engagement length of 2/3rds to clamp well. A single slit collet can hold pieces with very short engagement. Clamping short things in ER-style collets can damage them!
While technically true, we got away with a lot with a cheap set of ER32's at my last place of work. We clammed things only 1-5mm long in them with quite regularity (though they were also only 3-6mm in diameter) without any issues. Bit fiddly though.
Came to say exactly this, when I was looking into collet sets I saw that ER style sets only guarantee concentricity if your part engages ~2/3 depth or more- a remnant from originally being designed as a tool holder that was later adapted to workholding. 5C style collets will grip and be concentric so long as your part reaches past the gripping face.
Really only matter if you're doing a lot with really short parts, but is why I started with a 5C set and added an ER set later.
That 2/3rds requirement is not true if you have a seperate piece of stock in the back end of the collet the same diameter as, or ever-so-slightly smaller in diameter than, the actual work piece. Just like when holding a small piece in one end of a vice jaw, it's good to have a similar size piece in the other end for a better hold.
@@kitsgarage5931 We all do things we’re not supposed to do but at least we should be aware of the rules we’re breaking 😁
@@Self_Evident Clever idea, the 2/3rds rule was indeed made with clamping a single piece in mind. I’ve never seen anyone do that though while there are plenty of examples of people clamping too short tools/workpieces and being disappointed in the very limited holding force of the setup.
When you titled this video, did you ponder on exactly what to collet? Hehehe Thanks for another awesome machining video!!
Thank you Quin. This fits perfectly with the mantra, "be the person that you needed, when you were young."
Here comes all the micro managers telling how you did everything wrong, because you didn't do things THEIR way.
You are one of the best YT teachers out there.
Thank you for everything.
"Their way", as a 14 year old engine room apprentice in Tasmania I was told "you will be taught many ways to do jobs, always do as requested then when you have experience choose the way that works best for you". I really enjoyed this video and it has helped me make up my mind on collets. Thankyou.
About 24 hours after the video and mostly what I am seeing is addendums to the information presented, not corrections.
It appears this community is extremely positive and supportive!
Clearly you have a great knowledge but what amazes me is; how smoothly you deliver it and teaching is your natural ability and smooth voice makes it to listen for hours with joy. Thank you
This is the trouble with a lot of people putting out videos, we all forget that those just starting out have no concept of what all this stuff is and how it works. Thanks for the basic video on the work holding tools.
That's why tradespeople spend 4 years at Engineering college.
Quinn, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! For all of your excellent videos. I'm 72 and a life long woodworker. But my community's woodworking shop inherited a LOVELY vintage metal working lathe (Taiwanese built JET-1024 (??) circa 1980s or so, heavy as all heck). No electronic controls, no DRO, but very nicely maintained and buttery smooth in operation. And I hadn't a clue how it works. But, I want to make some things with it. I've now been watching your videos for the past 6 weeks trying to absorb some of the basics of turning on a metal lathe. In the process, I've learned a ton about metrology, and found This Old Tony's, Abom's and Mr. Pete's channels. I wish I could have learned from the 90-year old master machinist who donated the lathe before he passed (it was his home workshop hobby lathe), but alas I did not and I'm charging into this on my own. ***But now also with YOU!*** Many thanks for all of your excellent materials.
I’m currently trying to change careers and going to a community college for machining with a brand new instructor who’s never taught before. He’s knowledgeable but we students need to pull every last bit of information out of him. You are filling a tremendous void in my education with videos like this and I can’t thank you enough.
Well, as opposed to most of the comments I've looked at written by people who actually know what they're doing, I will play the part of "old guy rookie machinist" and just say thanks, this was amazingly useful, leading me to a lot of "OHHhhhhhh"'s while I watched it. 🙂
Quinn timing could not been any better. I now know what to not waste my money on which is a big thing in this hobby.
Stephan has a video where he goes through his process of cleaning and deburring a cheaper collet. It's a good extension to your discussion here!
Quinn - thank you for another very comprehensive video. I wasn't aware that there was so much to know about collets!
Cleaning the grit, swarf, and burrs from inexpensive collets sets, when received, can often yield a much better product than expected. I do this underneath a microscope and use an X-acto blade to carefully trim burrs from each cut. The ultrasonic bath may be overkill but I have gotten some grit left behind after the bath.
Quinn, you’re the best shop teacher I’ve ever had! Thank you!!!
Thank you! I can't believe that I waited a day to watch this! Two categories of collet not mentioned yet are the square and hexagonal 5C, the oversized 5C's that can be shallow cut to hold thin stock, (watch makers, . . .) and I forget what they're called? -the type that are heated up, to expand, insert tool, let cool and grip the whole of the tools surface area. Admittedly not something the hobbiest will encounter, but knowing of this as a possibility has allowed me to increase the shank of an odd sized drill, and once to make a collet for an old pantograph.
I do love your videos and think that you are an excellent teacher! Consider yourself given one apple!
Hi Blondi , a nice summary.
R8 collets were designed by Bridgeport for their milling machines
(a word of warning for non north american viewers, R8 appears to be much less common than Morse 3 collets)
5C collets were designed by Hardinge for their very wonderful manual lathes ,real hardinge collets are quite expensive.
Lathes from the lowest and cheapest to the most expensive and precise have a morse taper in the spindle so Morse collets are an option.
(added ) ER originally by Rego-Fix switzerland It is truely international
If you use collets on your lathe there is no chuck jaws to run into. running into chuck jaws is a very bad thing.
As a European I can testify to that.
MT2 and MT3 seem to be the standard for mills and lathes and also sometimes being called MC2/3 (Morse conus).
Strangely enough alot of the cheaper imported Morse taper collets are for imperial sizes🤔
@@samuraidriver4x4I have Imperial MT collets, to fit my imported milling machine. Of course, MT is an American thing, just like Morse Code.
i hope that comment will be pinned .
most of the stuff i can find here is either MT2 or MT3, both my mill (HBM bf25) and lath (myford ml7) are MT3/MC3 and MT2 /MC2. luckily my ER-collet set came with both a MT3 and MT2 shanks so i can use them on both machines :)
@@chrislee7817 Ah never put 5c and cataract together. more origin story😀
Nice, I personally appreciate history behind common things.
Nice summary. Only thing I would add for the lesser initiated is that It is important to snap the collet into the closing nut before installing it as undoing the nut is what pulls the collet out. They can be tricky (if not impossible) to remove if you just push the collet into the holder and then screw the nut on over it.
Very helpful. Thank you. I have been enjoying your locomotive build.
.I am a retired railroad locomotive mechanic of 41 years. I live in Klamath Falls, Oregon USA. Near Klamath there is a 7 1/2" gauge railroad called Train Mountain. If you ever come to Klamath Falls I would love to get you a tour. Or you can see it on youtube. I am a patreon of your channel.
I too would like to say thank you to Quinn and her Patrons for this lesson.
Desert island collet choice - my new way to screen dates!
Great job explaining the differences and the uses of collets.
The old guy wisdom I would impart is “Clean your collets, every time”. As you know, collets work using the tapers to collapse the collet and grip the tool or workpiece. (Quinn said so), but I have often seen people using dirty collets, pulling one tool out and slapping another in, or keeping their collets “well lubricated” they defeat the friction that make collets work. I use ISO Alcohol because it leaves no residue. Like anything else in life, you can go really far down the rabbet hole topics like fretting and pull out forces would warrant their own video. (Hint hint Quinn) Sometimes knowing that the long, skinny pedal on the right makes car go is all I really need. Thanks again Quinn, great job!
I keep a special toothbrush in the drawer with the ER collets to clean crud from the threads. And I'll run the lathe at low speed and hold some unwound cotton string (pinched, not wrapped round a finger) against the male threads. It gets right down in the thread and pulls out what a rag won't.
I didn't know what I didn't know regarding collets and especially r8 vs 5c applications. As a home-gamer with a r8 mill who was wondering why the chuck options for my lathe were 5c, I'm now significantly less confused. Thanks Blondihacks!
5C collets are good where you need to hold only a very shallow amount of material; the ER collets will close unevenly under that pressure (kind of like using only one side of your mill vice with nothing balancing it on the other end). This can lead to parts slightly canted relative to the spindle axis, resulting in tapered cuts.
I run both ER40 and 5C in my lathe (and ER40 more often than 5C), depending on what I'm cutting and why. I also made an adapter to use the ER40 collets as a self-centering "spider" on the outboard spindle end.
Oooh 😯, glad I read this. It never occurred to me to adapt a collet as a spider. Thanks, Michael! 👍
@@624Dudley I got lucky with the existing thread on my lathe spindle outboard end. That made it simple. It would take more work on most lathes.
Sadly, trying to link to the description doesn't work; I keep forgetting that spammers are why we can't have nice things. But a search for "hobby machinist g0709 ER40" finds my description of how I did this.
Nice idea on the ER spider. ER collets don't hold well on a very short amount of work or tool inside. Had an employee try to get more length on a CNC router ER32 with the result of a tool flying across the shop @16,000rpm.
In order to securely clamp short parts in an ER collet, put a matching diameter (or even slightly smaller) part in the back end of the collet to balance the ER clamping force, just like when clamping a small part in one side of your vice with a similar size part in the other side of the jaws.
One thing to watch out for on hex collet blocks is their precision on the edges.The sides can be expected to be precision ground, but not necessarily the edges. So, for example, when you clamp a hex collet block laying down on the edge in the milling vise (as is shown in the video), the Y position of the work piece is repeatable, but not necessarily the Z position.
The easy way to fix this issue is to lay a piece of material of a consistent size in the bottom of the vise so that the collet block rests on the piece of material. Not the edges. The best way is to surface grind the edges so that they are all the same distance from the centerline of the block. I made my own 5C collet blocks in arrangements other than the common 4 and 6 sided ones. 5, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 12 sided ones. All were within .0001" using a precision collet.
@@mpetersen6 Two round gauge pins of equal diameter, one on each side would be perfect. Two HSS tool blanks would be good enough?
@@paullehmor982
Really you only need one provided the collet block is accurate. You can also use a thin parallel
I use ER a lot. Common error is not to tighten the nut sufficiently - look up the closing torque for ER32, it's *massive*. Ball bearing nuts can help with this, they basically have a thrust bearing built in that allows more of the applied torque to be used closing the collet.
Then you might think about cleaning the thread on the nut, I tighten my ER40 collets with the spanner and only hold on the colletholder body, and that is tight enough to make 2mm chips
@@sidewind131258 Depends on the size of the part and the range of the collet. The lower down in the range you go, the more torque you need. And I'm not making up the torque figures: the published closing torque for ER32 is 100 ft-lb (135Nm). That's a lot.
Nice comprehensive comparation, Quinn! The only thing I would add - that also puts another checkmark in the ER collet's book - is that they have a "loosen - then - eject" function, meaning the initial loosening of the nut doesn't let the tool or part go at once, you have to turn it a bit more to get it out. It is a nice addition, has saved me lots of endmills NOT falling onto the workpiece or the machine vise. The thing that allows them to do this is an eccentric ring on the inside which fits into the groove at the collet's neck part.
And the fact that it
@@2oqp577 MariTools have a nice $nap to them for the buck!
@@2oqp577 Yes, thanks, I didn't write that down in my comment, it comes from the design of the ring, helps with assembly and disassembly as well. I have some ER collet nuts that are a bit more "resistive" in that regard, so I sanded the ring down a little.
I have a couple of 4 inch squares of sheet rubber I always chuck on the bed below the spindle before undoing collets in case the collet surprises me - have saved a couple of carbide end mills this way!
The deckel collet is also used in the deckel mills (deckel FP1 )
The spindle is fitted with a tapered insert which has a morse taper on the outside and an deckel collet taper inside
This is done to have the option to remove the morse taper adapter and use bigger tooling for example a 6" shell mill
I believe that the flat side of the thread is done to increase the friction on this side of the thread so the drawbar can't loosen itself due to repeated starting and stopping /reversing of the spindle
The deckel mills are very stable and easy to use and reliable
Greetings from Germany
Keep up the great work
I learned much from Ur videos
This detailed talk on tooling ... I'd collet a success! 👍😁
One other pro for 5C collets is that you can get them for square or hex stock too. Great video!
They’re also available unhardened with 3 locking pins and in large face sizes to be custom machined to order.
also emergency collets that you can make into whatever nominal size you want.
The strength of 5C collets is their complete system. See my comment. They do have their faults too.
Excellent video as always, Quinn. Thorough, concise, and delightfully nerdy.
Regarding the TTS holders: I'm one of the hobby users that's had much success with them. The "special" collet really isn't that special... You can buy the precision ground one, or you can do as I did, and just grind a regular 3/4" R8 collet nose flat, on a belt sander. The important thing is that the face of the collet is recessed into the spindle, which allows the upper face of the holder to register against the spindle nose. The collet face is not the registration surface.
This is what gives you the Z-height repeatability, as well as making up for (most, if not all) rigidity lost due to stickout. I've got a smaller mini-mill than yours, and on the rare occasion I need the extra Z-height, I just hold the tool in the appropriate R8 collet... But I honestly cant' remember the last time I've had to do that. Most of the time I can just swap tools in a few seconds, which is well worth it, for me. (I definitely recommend using the genuine Tormach holders... Unless you're luckier than I am, those import ER collet holders have terrible runout)
An added bonus is if your DRO has a tool library. Automatic offset compensation at the touch of a button!
Great coverage, just bought ER32 set for a new workshop setup at work, R8 shank for the mill and 4MT for the lathe, one good set of collets. Good mention of the hex and square holders, I went for years without knowing of those.
Thanks for a great presentation. There is one point I would like to add with respect to R8 collets: tools can walk out of the collet. I have a gouge in my rotary table due to an end mill that walked out of the collet.
Thanks so much for all this valuable and probably money saving knowledge. As a learner I appreciate greatly your videos and this especially as I have seen it just on the point of collet purchase.
Very well explained. Good job.
An important point to be aware of is that end mills with a set screw detent must be inserted at least a few millimeters beyond the detent. Otherwise, when cutting at high feed rates the pressure on the end mill will cause it to break.
p.s. - You can instruct apprentices on how to do things the right way until you're blue in the face, but I've yet to find a way to ensure they consistently follow directions. I've even had apprentices place double-end end mills in ER-32 collets at such a depth as to break the flutes on the second end.
In my hobby machining journey, I am juuuuust past where I have figured out pretty much everything shared in this video... but man, what a great thing to have all of that info compiled into one place. Thank you, ma'am, for taking the time to help demystify what can, to a novice, seem like an overwhelming sea of information regarding the various industry standards that exist in the machine tool world!
Thank you for keeping beginners in mind! ❤
I recently bought a set of inexpensive ER 32 collets. I had read about the quality control issues, and the need for checking to remove swarf and burrs. But I was pleasantly surprised to find that mine were very clean and free of debris. It gave me some confidence that I had found a good (I'm pretty sure it was Shars). They've come in handy with the collet blocks I bought at the same time. I own both an old milling machine (Clausing 8520) and an old lathe (Logan 10-inch). They have enough wear in the lead screws and ways that I know I'm never going to get great precision from them, so I limit any projects based on that knowledge. There's still plenty they can do, though, and my old hands and brain are sort of thankful for the limitations!
As always, another great video. Thanks!
Demystified as usual. Thanks Quinn
Collets come in many varieties. You have your DA collets for drilling, your ER collets for general workholding, and of course there are Phil collets that can feel it in the air tonight
I don't have a single metalworking machine and yet I just watched a video on collets, just because you're such a good educator.
Quinn, a master class.
I learned everything that bothered me in a video, I'm a hobbyist, a machining enthusiast.
Thank you very, very much!
Hugs admired here from Brazil
Just love this channel, Blondi is such a wonderful narrator, [ one of the very best I have heard ]. so clear, so precise, none of this eh, hmm ect ect. and whats more... she knows her stuff. Excellent keep them coming👍.
A Blondihacks - This Ol Tony style video.
Great tutorial on collets! I looked across TH-cam and this is the only channel that actually gave you straight information and what the collets are used for. Thank You Very Much!
This was really usefull, I'm just trying to get in to machining, and as I have some shop equipment et work, but those who knew how to use them have retired, this really makes a difference. :)
Very clear presentation and, for me, most timely.
I was third generation at Hardinge Bros in Elmira NY and at one time we made almost 80 percent of the world's collets. Good job explaining the basics.
Thank You for sharing your wonderful life with us!
…as a machiner for more that 40 years (yikes)…
I Absolutely approve of this message.
Ho-hum, yet again I learned a pile on one of your videos. Thanks Quinn.!
Nice summary. I'm primarily a woodworker, and we use collets too. Routers use collets to hold the router bits, ER-style. My Dremel rotary tool uses teeny tiny collets. And I have a set of MT2 collets for my wood lathe. They require a draw bar.
I have a 6" Atlas lathe and recently purchased a set of collets that work in the MT#2 spindle of the lathe. I fabricated my own draw bar with some grade 8 threaded rod, a thrust bearing, brass busing washers and a knob from McMaster-Carr. The capacity is inch sizes with the largest being 1/2". The utility is limited although it is great for threading rod to make studs, pins, small shafts or finials.
FANTASTIC VIDEO. Thank you very much for making this, and all of your extensive videos !
Thank you so much! This is very helpful for a newbie hobbyist such as myself. 🙏🙏
Great Video, thanks. I would have suggested a moment to discuss machinable collets. Keeping one or two in the shop always seemed to be a life saver when you had something odd and didn't own every conceivable collet size. So, you buy your sixteenths 5C collet set, cheap and common as you noted. then you have a machinable collet for when you discover that you absolutely need to grip that 7/32nds part.
Another good primer video.
Thanks, and Meow to Sprocket!
Vintage Deckel Machinery is quite common here in Germany.
We have companies that entirely specialise in restoring and maintaining old Deckel Milling machines and also still produce the acessories.
Deckel clones are also produced by the company FPS.
Also you can use the Deckel collets for tool holding.
Deckel Milling machinea have a Iso40 taper and Deckel made Iso40 collets with the same buttress thread aswell as Iso40 adapters for the small and thin collets.
I checked Finnish and German shops a bit. C5 and R8 collet don't seem to exist here. For hobbyists it's either Morse taper 2/3/4 or ISO40 for the big guns. ER32 for MT3 on mine.
Yes. In Europe R8 basically doesn’t exist … ER - OZ and Morse or even iso collet is more common
Schaublin made a version of 5C called (I think) W31,75. Available in Europe. Pricey…
@@stanwhyte7028 yeah, when I say "Don't exist", I actually mean "The usual suspects don't sell them and if you find any they cost an arm and a leg." 😅
I have buttress threads on bottles I use in the lab for holding wastewater, I'm very happy for that German threading weirdness because it won't ever leak.
Buttress threads are very common on certain types of industrial machinery. One application is on stamping presses for the adjustment screws used to set closure height on dies. They were also used for the interrupted threads on the breech blocks of large artillery pieces iirc.
Somd early collet fun for me was when I acquired a Dremel, a rather odd and apparently discontinued model with only one collet that came with it. Thankfully in those pre-internet days we still had hobby shops around and I was eventually able to acquire all four of the sizes that were possible for that thing. :-)
Probably someone mentioned this already, but just in case: ER collets are not suitable for holding short workpieces - tightening the nut can pop them out and will distort the collet !
As usual an awesome video !
In my line of work we don’t do much more than very basic machining in a mill and I thought I was being clever when I used a collet block to mill a hex on a part little did I know that it’s very common to do that - ahh it was nice thinking I was that clever at least for a while, lol
I enjoyed riding that train for a while until I realized that everyone uses them for that purpose, lol
Thanks! Your videos are superb.
In Europe ER collets are the most common type. I have two sets, one for holding endmills and one for a collet block. Also have a ER32 to MT3 holder to fit in the lathe tailstock.
As Quinn mentioned in other videos, not recommended to use an endmill in a drill chuck.
Might be worth mentioning that although a 1"/25mm hole is technically out of spec for ER32, there are folk who make them - more hole than collet, and I'd be wary if it's something that needs a lot of holding power or high precision but they work just fine. Searching for 25-24mm collets should turn them up.
Thanks for the vid, very helpful for someone new to colletts
All hail the algorithm. I was looking at collet sets today (and bought a set of ER40s and a collet block set). And now your video is at the top of my feed. I needed the larger collet to hold some larger parts. The mill I use at work (a high school) has ER32 tooling collets. Our CNC mini mill and CNC wood router use ER16s. I hadn’t even thought about the block setup fixing the part centreline in Z axis.
Nice video. I use ER collets almost exclusively. Both on my lathe and mill. ER32 is the go to size but I also use ER16 on the mill for small work as it gives good reach into confined spaces.
Also, as someone mentioned above, get some bearing nuts. You can crank them up tightly or if you don't need to hold so tight you don't so much welly for a given clamping force.
I also use R8 from time to time for the very reasons Quinn pointed out.
So excited to see this!
The ER collet shanks (i.e. ER16 x 6" length) are handy for making toolpost drilling accessories or for extending small tools.
Vey true, I use on for a tool post grinder. Perfect for a small lathe.
I purchased an inexpensive ER16 to MT-3 to securely hold small drills in the tailstock of my lathe as I was tired of my Jacobs chucks slipping and ruining both my drills and the work no matter the amount of torque I tighten them down with. It's worked fantastically compared to my old beat up Jacobs chuck.
@@clone4211 that sounds a good plan. Keep a look out for Albrecht chucks. They are absolutely fabulous, keyless and I’ve never seen one slip. You just need to remortgage to buy new!
I collet a very informative and useful video. Thanks. One area I was looking for more information.
Thank you. You cleared up a lot of questions for me.
This was really great. You are a very good teacher . Thanks.
Note 5c collects are available in soft format to allow you to machine the collet to fit off sizes and shapes.
Emergency collets... For quick catalog searches
Thanks for the video Quinn,really informative. 👍👍
The emergency collet that you can machine to your own spec is helpful too
Thank you so much! I now know what I'm looking at!
Thank you for a very useful video.😀
Great information, thanks for posting this!
Thanks Quinn I appreciate your Knowledge of metal working tool Accessory.
I did find this information useful... I didn't know all of these details. Thanks so much!
Another advantage of 5C are square and hexagon collets
…and emergency collets.
Excellent video, thanks!
Great video, and very helpful, thanks. I'm hoping to be setting up my first hobby machine shop later this year, and my plan had been to "standardize" on 5C collets. After this, I'll likely start with er-32s, especially since I already have a small set...
Great video Quinn.
This is excellent, thank you. I just bought a sherline, but I was overwhelmed by my work holding options.
Brilliant as always 😀
Thanks for a very informative and helpful video.
excellent and well put over
Awesome as usual from you. I always assumed single cut collets are ground a wee (sorry for the technical term) bit wider at the open/ bottom end so, when they hinge closed, the surfaces come pretty close to parallel to the tool.
Then again, I've assumed a lot of wrong stuff. I still assume me being a hobby machinist dumbass is the exception, not the rule ... But ...
Thanks again Quinn.
Excellent information. Thank you
Don’t forget the ER25, good size. I have a complete set of Er40 for the good diameter range, plus a bunch of Er25 holders to have smaller mills mounted. Doubled/tripled collets for 6, 8 and 10 mm for mill holding. Does the trick.
For the odd size 5C collet, I've used "emergency collets" and bored the hole to size. They are softer steel so they're easy to bore.
G'day Quinn, great video. Definitely useful!
This is so helpful. Thank you.
Thanks Quinn
Thanks for the information !
A big thank you. Much needed info.
I thought I understood collets. It turns out I didn't. This was super helpful!
Merci encore une fois Quinn. Very useful informations.