Re-grinding a collet chuck and testing some cheap Chinese collets
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 เม.ย. 2018
- I'm finally regrinding the internal taper of that cheap chines collet chuck with a lot of runout. Hopefully my little pencil grinder is up to the task and gets things running true so I can test some more Banggood collets.
Want to support my video efforts, you could buy some shit through my Ebay and Banggood affiliated links below :)
some products I really like:
CCMT inserts: ebay.to/2MHIqz3
Diamond hone: www.banggood.com/custlink/Gv3...
Rolingmetal community tab: bit.ly/2TkLrH0
Rolingmetal photo album: bit.ly/2KQJIdu - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
I've had the same problem with a cheap collet set. I've bought a batter holder ans a few collets of the sizes I need.
Thanks for posting...
Nice setup for this.Impressive.
Hi mr rolinmetal ,great camera coverage and commentary ,interesting testing technique,s.thanks again for your time,please keep the videos comin,,,,,,regards TW canadas,s west coast
Thank you for your kind words. I sure beats those nasty comments I sometimes get :)
Boy, do I have a lot to learn ... thanks for a great video!! Bought Techniks collets ... haven't checked them yet.
Hey rolling metal love the channel always entertaining. I'd bet the error is coming from the Mt slipping in the spindle while you were tightening the er collet. Check the run out of the surface you machined. You should have set them to get the maximum error then machine it out. Also witness marks to put the taper in the spindle the same way each time would help.
I also found a big difference in the collet nuts. I ended up getting very close with the right nut.
Don't give up until you try different nu8ts.
Thanks
I actually tried some more nuts. But the were all cheap Chinese made ones, so that didn't improve the runout.
Very likely, your major problem seems to be the collet holder. Your lathe is best to correct issues. Have you put your collet holder into a Three Jaw Chuck, faced the end, chamfered? Your collet only make contact on the inner edge of the holder. Do NOT use a grinder unless you can properly clean up afterward. Check @Joe Pie.
Looks exactly like my collets. Same nicks in them and about the same runout
Same shit, same seller?
You can certainly lubricate grinding jobs, I have a noga mini-cool for my surface grinder. Some coolant claims to be good for grinding too. I usually try to shut the coolant off before the wheel though in case liquid wants to settle in the wheel and make it unbalanced.
Surly no oil based lubrication is used?
SOUNDS !! LIKE !! IT !! WAS !! STUFFED !! UP !!
I subbed. I know this is an older vid but have some input. Bought the same diy rough kit from banggood. I did the same thing of recutting the inner taper the used xxxx fine compound on a cone I made to fine polish. I also had to recut the inner face of the nut. Lastly I clamped the collets down tight and drilled with a cobalt drilled and reamed. Now I am .001
I have now made a couple of collets from brass and aluminum with a single slit that work awesome.
Thanks for your time and efforts¡
That's a very good result. I think if the thread for the collet nut is not true you can pretty much forget about fixing these holders. A while back I tried to fix a ER25 holder and that ending being a experiment on how to get a mirror surface finish on the tapered bore. I still need to try an insert for aluminium, a hone and an i.d. shear tool. But those videos have been postponed for a while :) th-cam.com/video/xBpN5ZwsPa8/w-d-xo.html
Collet nut threads may have been off. Seemed the collet nut was wobbling.
You gave this a very good try. The initial boring seemed to be better than the grinding. The issue with the grinding wheel is that it may wear too much as you go down the taper.
As other mentioned you could remove from the face to get back to 32mm at the face, but you need a good ER32 taper for reference to set the boring bar.
I am not sure why the collet nut is not running true, but I would look into this before any more work on the chuck.
I hope you get things running so you can use the chuck and collets.
Dave.
In this case boring worked better then grinding. The wear on the grinding disk is not a problem as long as you take light cut.
It actually took me a long time to grind it down were it would fit inside the chuck. A quality Banggood item :)
After grinding I will now have to recut the face. It's not a problem but the inside depth was already undersized.
The chuck is not running 100% true. So the outside will be a bit offset against the inside. This might have an effect on the collet nut. But it shouldn't be much.
I'm having the exact same problem with my eBay ER32 collet chuck and collets, I can't narrow down the problem because the runout is so inconsistent, I regret not spending a little extra in the beginning and getting a usable tool
Collet, chuck and even the nut, it might all be causing run out. That would certainly explain the random results.
Perhaps the variation in clamping force also plays a factor.
Without special equipment, or at least a know good set as a reference, it will be very hard to pinpoint the problem(s)
We have good collet: zhengyu03@sdzhengyu.com
Thanks for the vid.
I expect to run into the same issues with the import coll4et chuck and collets I just ordered.
Well join the Chinese collet review club. But watch out you might develop an unhealthy CCCF
(Cheap Chinese Collet Fetish)
collet manufacture: zhengyu03@sdzhengyu.com
LOOKS !! BOUND !! FOR !! THE !! METAL !! SHREADDER !! NOW !!
You need to fix collet taper by sanding with sandpaper to remove high /low on the wall by hand that should eliminate the nut wobble and should run .001 on dia .
IT'S !! ALL !! RUSTED !! UP !!
I watched your video over and over again. I also bought a ER32 taper with collets. First i checked the runout of the spindel. Less then 0,01 mm. I cleaned the spindel properly and also the taper. Then i checkt the taper for scratches en so on. The inside surfes of the taper whas smooth but not perfect. I used scotchbrite to finich the inside of the taper untill it became very very smooth like the surfase of a mirror.
Then i fased the taper. During the process it turned out that the fase of the taper whas not 100 procent flat. After a couple of very very small cuts it became 100 procent flat. I also checked the inside of the nut to see if the seat witch will hit the fase of the taper was 100 procent. In the beginning it did not hit the fase al the way true.
After facing and a small champering the inside edge of the taper, problem was solved. After completing all the problems i put the taper inside the spindel and checkt the inside runout of the taper.
Well…. It has the same runout as the spindel of the lathe. Less then 0,01 mm. The outside of the nut was Wobbeling a little bit but the inside was perfect. The collets are checked and are 100 procent clean. I put a roundstuck 10 mm in the collet. The closer the measurement to the collet the less runout. Then i made several very very small cuts on the workpease. I checked the workpease for runout after the cutting. There was almost zero runout. I marked the taper and the backplate of the spindel so that i can mount the taper the same way.
I concluded also…. If i buy a pease of roundstuck…. And look closer, It is not 100 procent round. It becomes 100 procent round after a couple of small cuttings.
I concluded also that the process as discribed above will only work on the lathe that you are using. It will not have the same measurement when i put the same taper in a other lathe.
I concluded also that the measurements of a workpease that has been cut on a lathe, wil not have the same measurements when put the same workpease in a another lathe. The workpease wil adapet itself to the runout
specifiecations of the lathe that hase been used.
I am sorry for my bad english.
Gefeliciteerd meet je succes. Had ook wel in het Nederlands gemogen.
May want to try rubberized abrasives such a nice finish
Rubberized abrasives?
I could be wrong but it looked like your later numbers were tested at a further distance out than your earlier ones. In which case the runout would be consistent but at a larger figure.
As for the later tests i could only guess that either your test piece or some grinding dust/metal shavings had gotten pressed in after really clamping it down.
You’re later tests with the next collet looked like the distance along the rod was similar to your first earlier measurements so I believe that your indicator had just gotten moved further down the rod for the later measurements of the first collet.
You can wind copper wire on it or a other coil you can stick collet in to and set ac voltage on it, who does demagnetize it.
NO !! IT'S !! JUST !! SUPER !! GLUE !! YOUR !! USING !! WAY !! TOO !! MUCH !! OF !!
Also I recently purchased some Tormach brand ER20 collets, they are made in I think Korea--they certainly are not the crap-show going on with your set. I bet their ER32 collets are decent too.
I've heard Taiwanese collets should also be a lot better than Chinese.
I'll probably buy something local. It will probably still be Chines but there should be some quality control and warranty.
I just went through similar process myself. I got my collet set from eBay and runout was about .005" (.0127mm). I bored it out and now it's about .002" (.05mm) but I think I enlarged it too much, I didn't even know what 32 stand for until I watched your video. I will have to measure it and see if I am over, also since I was doing it on my mini lathe with is not so sturdy and my boring bar was extending over an inch and it's only 7mm thick I wasn't getting very ridgit operation. I want to try grinding it. One thing I did not see you do is ware you using your compound to advanced the grinding bit? And if so what angle did you set it up?
I set the top slide (aka compound) to 8 degrees and used it to move the die grinder in en out of the chuck.
In my follow up video I show a better way to set the compound to 8 degrees.
Even if the bore of your collet chuck is PERFECT, you still have the problem of the threads being out of concentricity; *which would force the face of the collet out of position ! A solution might be to LAP the collets to fit a 'home made' collet chuck , (if your chinese lathe is up to the task ? ) I admire your persistence ;) CCCF ! HAHAHAHA !
You're right. I've been wondering about the effect of that o.d. run out on the collet nut.
I expect it to be very little. But that is based on guess work :)
I just got one of those, it's a nightmare !
No way back, All the good companies went bankrupted.
Yeah. Watching around 18:40 you can see the external nut face doesn't run true. Holder threads, nut threads, or nut taper may not be square+concentric. There's more to holding a collet beyond the holder's taper (and since you picked up on their original angle - even than can't be trusted). Low quality nuts seem to often cause unforeseen problems more often than expected.
Unfortunately, if you can't trust it... you've basically got to check+tweak from first principles. Great video on your experience!
@@Spark-Hole SO ! WHAT'S !! NEW !! WITH !! THAT !!??
You need far more torque on the nut to seat the collet correctly and consistently. Get a wrench on the collet holder flats and a proper ER wrench on the nut and get it good and tight. Tightening it with the lathe pulley is not going to work well even with the best set of tooling. I suspect that if you had held a long bar in the collets you could have pushed it around to give zero runout.
thanks for the great review..
Ray seems we all are having issues with the Bangood ER32 and 25 collet chucks , I confirmed my MT3 taper had all but zero run out, and reground both the ER taper and the face of the taper, only to find the runout only slightly better. I found two parts on the Sharrs tool site of a ball bearing nut. I still have a few of each of the ER collets that are questionable, but for the most part I am not getting less the 0.001 run out across the ER Imperial and Metric sizes ,....... seems nut is the culprit putting uneven load on the collet as it tightens down. cheers
That's not a bad result. Wish I was so lucky.
why using grinding stone if you can turn with normal lathe tooling? i would do that to face of the chucknice and clean?
very nice, buddy!
Could be better :)
"Anyone looking forward to his next dentist appointment?" Thank you for reminding me that I have a dentist appointment today!
Better !! Going !! Off !! To !! The ! Butcher !! More ! Like !!
I think the biggest problem with Chinese gear is the quality control. My lathe came with a test certificate which clearly has numbers plucked from the air! I can work round the problems for what I am doing. I have a few sets of Chinese collets and they are all better than the ones you tested but they came to me in much better condition, still packaged properly and the collets individually bagged and oiled - no nicks or dents. I thinks its a case of flip a coin to see if are going to get decent stuff from China!
There are some misses. But the misses are not that often. Unless you specifically look for bad ones. Like paying for the lowest price.
It's like this. There are always garbage to be had at a quarter of the price.
But you can get the same good product at half or more of US domestic price. But avoid those asking for just 20%.
Do not junk or throw away the holder and collets. Use them to hold taps , you will get a better grip than a standard drill chuck.
The lathe screetching really annoys my wife. Subscribed 😁
You should check out what kind of effect the Smurf lathe has on the wife :) th-cam.com/video/98-lXt6CzVk/w-d-xo.html
Be careful she might run out and not come back :)
No ! It !! Must !! Be ! Just ! YOUR !! VOICE !! DOING !! THAT !!!
At 21:22 you can clearly see the nut is moving eccentrically ,obviously the thread on the collet holder needs to be skimmed to rectify the problem
I don't recall if you checked that chuck very closely, If one had checked the thickness of the inside to outside walls of those collets, and if they were fairly close,
I would have questioned the collet chuck much more and found a way to make that very accurate before spending all that time suspecting the collets. I would have thought that anyone manufacturing collets would possibly be watching that very closely.
Hi. Love watching videos. I am not a machinist. I would like to make some suggestions. I am planning on doing the same as you. Is the spindle true? I think you should go back and true it perfectly down to 0.00002. Then add one attachment and true that. I also think you should be lapping instead of grinding. Put some blue inside the holder then put the collet and see how they fit together. Check how the surfaces mate up. Smooth up any high spots. If there are excessively low spots then turn it. I think HHS will do better. When grinding you will get that grit every where.
IT !! LOOKS !! LIKE !! THERE'S !! QUITE !! A !! LOT !! OF !! GRINDING !! GRIT !! IN !! YOUR !! HEAD !!!
I'd love to see a spindle that's true down to 0,00002. Even if you were referring to imperial you're still talking about a ridiculously high accuracy of 500 nanometers (let alone if it were metric, in which case you're talking about 20 nanometers!!!), you're not going to get that with any lathe except for one running on air bearings.
I have the very same collet set and mine only has a half a thousanths run out. Im very happy with my set. and mine was only $180.00
Hello,
Nice machining of the bore.
Have you tried some Engineers /Prussian Blue to check the tapers of coolers and holder.
The collets do look very poorly manufactured, they look like they have been hand linished/polished. I have purchased Vertex items, and found them very good for the price.
Thank you for sharing your expertise.
I will try some bluing but I'm not sure it its going to work with the collets being so springy.
Rolingmetal , you can tighten the collet on some round bar. Check both the outside (tapered) and inside (parallel). You can also use ink from a marking pen.
Bandsaw finish.... Enjoyed the video.
Thanks. Real band saw finish no hyperbole :)
th-cam.com/video/1-iUYvI4qyQ/w-d-xo.html (fast forward to 6:08)
LOL, I just posted on the earlier video and now see you are treating it as a kit that needs finishing :o) If you take a look at collets with a loupe you may find burrs on the slitting saw slots. I had to de-burr all of the set I bought. Better quality collets are substantially more expensive (x6~10+ cost of cheap ones)
THAT !! MUST !! HAVE !! BEEN !! STRAINNG !! YOUR !! BRAIN !!! NO !! END !!
I agree with the comment made earlier that the thread might be skew with the taper. I have a Banggood ER32 MT 3 and MT 4 collet chuck and they are both spot on, so much so I use them on cylindrical and T and C grinders. It maybe that I was just lucky when I was looking for some cheap tool holding for a one off job but they are now a staple in my workshop. I bought some Banggood collets for the same reason and they are OK for most jobs, not perfect, but OK. I enjoyed your video and I am now a new subscriber, thank you for your time and effort.
Good to know there are good Banggood collet chuck out there.
When did you buy those? Perhaps is was a previous good batch.
Rolingmetal
The MT 4 is about 18 months and the MT 3 is about three years old. I agree that timing is everything these days when purchasing quality, brand names can be great one minute and junk the next, it all seems to be a lottery. I use Banggood for quite a bit of non essential parts and I'm happy with the greater part of it. I have found their customer service to be excellent, so if I might suggest contacting them and putting your case forward, there is a good chance they might listen and surprise you. They seem to respond to a reasonable approach quite favourably.
@@Rolingmetal what MT taper is your lath. I mistakenly bought a #3MT ER25 chuck which is of no use to me. If you can use it you're welcome to it to try some ER 25 collets in your lathe.
13:45 collets not centrics. they grind them in air. inside and outside same setup?
At this point I would make my own collet chuck and nut to spec then try the Bang-U-Good collets for the best measurement... I'd also test them and mark them for their actual sizes.
5.43mm 6.41mm etc...
I had a similar thought this afternoon when I wasting some more time on this collet chuck. Video coming soon :)
Use diamond tool to grind hard steels better than stone you can get them on ebay .
The same problem here with a HBM ER32 set if you look closely you see that the outside of those collet chucks are inconsistant! try to follow it up with some thread cutting tool the run out is there and a lot i think they have threaded the chucks on the outside instead of using the morse tapper or maybe they used a dirty or damaged morse taper to begin with! Im using a hex collet holder in the chuck now it makes it much easier to change tools without removing your chuck every time and less runout! Groeten uit Amsterdam! :-)
Heb je ook spantangen van HBM?
Deze ben ik namelijk van plan te kopen.
Volgens hun website hebben deze 0.01mm runout.
Zo niet dan stuur ik ze mooi terug.
I would love to get hold of have a er collet set to test, as I cannot believe anyone can make collets as badly as these seem to be, there must be a way to correct such a good system, can you please go back to them and retest,?
can you test the surface inside of the collet nut? this could be pushing uneven on the collet.
That thought has crossed my mind.
But with those slits they are hard to test.
They sure are rough on the inside. I'm thinking that can't be good.
Those of you with runout check the taper cone, If it runs true then try a "Bearing" type nut.
Less force to lock the collet up and a lot less run out than with my chinese nuts.
Look for a bearing type.
Thanks
I actually bought a cheap bearing nut form ebay. Turned out to be total piece of crap. But I did get my money back :)
At 25:50, it’s clear that the problem is mostly caused by the chuck shank. If you try fixing the shank, then you might get better results.
Curiosity question. Those two nicks on two of the collets shown look like they are on either side of a cut in the collet. Possibly orientation marks? You could use that to locate the collet in exactly the same position each time in the holder. It just seemed like it might be deliberate since there is a consistency there. I do that with WW collets (not the nick, I just use the existing markings), it just helps eliminate variables. The holder gets put in exactly in the same orientation, then the collet gets put in exactly the same location in the holder. That collet nut might be your worst runout culprit, if the face is off by that much on the outside, I wonder how much effort they put into getting the inside to be any different. That could be pushing the collet off center. It would be a shame to give the collets a bad rap if it's just a crappy piece of the holder.
The are too random to be orientation marks.
Got a set of Banggood collets in metric and imperial sizes and they all run out to quite varying degrees, suggesting that the collets themselves rather than the holder are responsible for the inaccuracy. However, I use them solely for holding milling cutters and drills in my rather small mill and for making steam engines they are good enough. They were far cheaper and more versatile than a dedicated milling cutter holder. For accurate work, such as turning pistons on rods, I tend to make my own single split holders from brass rod. Tedious and costly, but superior to these collets.
You have no problems with end mill wear? And how about drilling accurate holes?
Hi Rolingmetal no problems that are significant with end mill wear as most materials so far have been brass, bronze and cast iron. A good centre punch mark to start a drill produces a satisfactory result. As I say, for steam engineering, where a little bit of slack does no harm, all seems to be quite acceptable. However, Building internal combustion engines would be quite different! I must say that I am merely an amateur in this fascinating discipline of model engineering and I find that chaps like yourself who take the time and effort to share your knowledge and experiences are of immesurable value.
It was a valiant effort, but fruitless and frustrating no doubt. I have some old seemingly obscure collet system (that I can't even recall the name of at the moment) which was offered by Logan for a short time, but I've yet to try it out. Might be okay, or a complete disaster, but who knows? Thanks.
There wasn't much frustration this time.
But all hope was basically gone when I saw the first nicks an dents on that 16mm collet :)
Hi. I bought a set from banggood doubt they will any better These were in a sliver case.. with the chuck. Sucks not having the money to buy better made parts. Has always I Liked,Shared and added to Playlists.
All my best.
Bobby
You're a brave man Bobby. I'm hoping you get lucky.
I'll probably buy a Chinese set locally. They will be more expensive then Banggood but they should have better quality control. I wish I could have bought a quality set using my Banggood commission points but in recent month those earning have almost dried up. Must be the bad collet reviews :) So, I'm surprised by your purchase.
Thank you for the reply. Means a lot.
Problem with grinding with cut off wheels is they would not last long enough, the diameter will change quickly. I use a large high speed electric grinder like a large dremel. I buy relatively good grinding stones and true them as you did. Works well. BTW, I have had pretty good luck with ebay cheap collets and ER chucks. Those banggood collets are all seconds, that is why they are so cheap and have those gashes. Banggood knows this, they just don't list them as seconds so... Just don't buy banggood crap machine tools no matter how cheap they are, I bought a small cheap drone/quadcopter from banggood and the little bugger, though some what difficult to control worked well. At least on ebay you can file a claim and get a refund no matter if the seller likes it or not. I would have been sent second quality junk like that with that much runout I would have simply got a refund for a defective item. All the chucks & collets I have bought from ebay have been no more then a few tenths IE, .0002 etc. BTW, nice work on the videos.
Damn it man, I am at the diamond abrasive. And you have me cringing. If you want surface finish use a rubberized abrasive leaves Beautiful finish.
rubberized abrasive, interesting, I'll look that up. Thanks.
On these reviews, no on is putting a indicator on the outside of the collet housing to see if the collet holder is running true in the lathe with no run out. It looked like the collet holder was not running true in the lathe. Just wondering.
You are right, and it was probably a stupid idea of me to try and fix a collet chuck on an old lathe with a little bit of runout. But I guess you try and learn and sometimes get lucky :)
Ah the struggles of poor equipment.. sadly sounds so familiar to most of us. Cool trig trick tho. btw As per your suggestion i visited the volume control and the noise was no problem XD
Better struggle and have some fun with poor equipment than making a fool of myself using high end stuff :)
Not sure what you mean Rolingmetal.. how could one miss up with a better collet set? Do agree tho with having something even if its lower quality.
I was thinking about high end equipment in general, like CNC and stuff like that.
I don't think I would have more fun playing with that stuff. But who knows, maybe in the future :)
When you meaure runout you need to look at how far from your holder you are measuring. Because this will increase as you move out. You can see on the wobble of the test-pice that it is sticking out at an angle.
To get consistant readings use your topslide in and out.
And use three or more readings in different distances from the face to calculate the angle your test-pice is. This angle is what you sholud get repeatability on.
You should also run your indicator allong your test-pice to verify.
And as mentioned by others here, your ER-nut might contribute.....
Bullshit.
You' re are right, I guess I was lazy :)
Moral of the story. You get what you pay for?
Is the tightening collar itself wobbling?
Possibly the thread on the collet chuck is the problem. Hard to pinpoint the exact issue. Could even be a whole bunch on compounded problems. Word of advice, avoid the Banggood collets :)
are the 'nicks' actually on purpose when they do weight balancing ?
I think they are more decorative :)
0:45 if you grind your collet chuck you should buy quality ER collets. or buy bunch cheap and use good ones. dump rest. thats why they cheap
You sure are tenacious! I believe the cheap Chinese collets are factory rejects that some clever guy buys at scrap value and then packages and sells world wide. It's a matter of luck to get a usable set and you have not been lucky.
You are dead right there, collets with those sort of defects would not pas test.
In China they do for sure.
You could try to shorten the grinding tools so they have less stickout. That should give more rigidity.
I actually already did that :)
Thank-you for taking the time and trouble to illuminate.....scary considering i have to find collet adapters for this old Gorton Vertical Mill - it has a B&S#9 Spindle taper. (and this tooling is just not available on demand) All I can do is use an adapter to either MT2 or R8. And hope I may find a metric collet set for ~$200 that has some good IRO.
It is my first milling job - so I am beginning to factor the possible imperfections in the adapter as well as the collet :-O
Recently I have priced a professional regrind to R8 taper and is in the $425 range plus shipping to Illinois USA. A Co. called Wells-Index. Old bricks and motar type :-)
Shipping would be expensive but they are so good at what they do. Quite
Good tooling seems to be expensive :)
Good luck on your quest.
we love longer videos!
My 1980's burnerd 3 jaw has a 0.03mm runout.
That's almost unbelievably good :)
I m still waiting for it.
Measuring with those calipers in the way he indicated, and then using trigonometry and determining you're 0.1mm over is fairly ridiculous.
The collet taper is known, so the amount protruding actually could be used to Measure the diameter.
i gave up reground my collet chuck and bought a few high precision collets
Try changing the collet compression nut looks like that is moving
Er32 collets have a 8° angle on the tapered shaft, and a 30° shoulder. You should be able to clean that internal taper up pretty easy.
With !! GRINDING !! GRIT !!
@@davidwillard7334 No!
@@davidwillard7334 I don't care about your opinion. I'm a machinist buddy. I do my own job setups. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Your opinion is invalid to me.
@@davidwillard7334 You assuming that I cared about your opinion to begin with means you lose
@@davidwillard7334 Grit wouldn't work. Diamond lapping compound would work, if you wanted to do it that way. However, I wouldn't do it that way. Technically there is no wrong way to do it as long as you get the same result. I just like doing it that way. Unless you have the perfectly ground, exact male counterpart the lapping compound wouldn't work all that great.
Is it just me? i can see your test piece wobbling. is it bent?
Anything is possible with these mediocre Chinese chucks :)
to get a better finish when you was using diffrent stoness doing the face, you should get spindle to move faster that was too slow
You' re proably right. But I was worried the higher spindle speed might bent the rather thin grinding stone arbor.
did anyone he didn't insert the ER collet into the nut properly before screwing it on , the collets are a snap fit in the nut , likely the main reason for the runout
Hi, Turning the inside is good enough, you dont need to grind it, you can messure the collet nut if it is running true, screw the nut all the way in and messure on the 30 degrees angle, the 8 degrees angleit is easy to check , 5mm = 35,577mm, 50mm = 7,027mm, maby you could try to put a collet in the holder and turn the bore true.
I agree, boring out seems to work better in my case.
After I reset the topside parallel to the bed I could probably use it to measure and calculate the angle.
I would take a lot of work and an X number of cuts but I might actually get very close to 8 degrees.
Mmmm interesting. Thanks for the idea.
Actualy it is very simple, your topslide/compound rest (google lathe machine main components) is set to 8 degrees, check with a piece of steel in your toolpost (parallel to compound rest) and your dial indicator on the bed, go forwards and backwards 50mm and when the dial indicator reads 7.03mm your very close to 8 degrees.
I was over thinking things again :) Thanks.
Hopefully my test indicator has enough travel.
your test indicator does not have the range, it has to be a dial indicator, you know that when I say 50mm it is parallel to the lathe ways
I'm sorry I was thinking dial indicator but writing test indicator.
which ER chuck is it? ER32?
yes er32
Time to give up on that chuck. It looks like it was a Friday afternoon job. Too many things wrong with it to start with, that compound any corrections you try to make to it. Granted, the collets themselves don't look well finished, but I reckon your errors are mostly from the chuck. I can only attest that their ER25 set is good enough for hobbyist use.
I think myfordboy also tested an ER25 collet set. It looked perfect.
I wonder if Bangood is willing to give me a set of those to try out. They might not, after all these negative collet reviews :)
I would never in a thousand years have thought to try surface grinding with a cutoff wheel. I will try that for snap ring grooves, I think it would work well for that.
Since there is little to lose, maybe try lapping a bad collet up to the next size with a rod mounted like a boring bar?
I think that should work fine for snap rings from a certain size and above.
For smaller rings it might be a bit wide and you would need to wear down the disc considerably.
I might do some experiments on those collet. But they are difficult to hold and hard to machine.
May i suggest that the collet nut may be the issue here ? Kind regards
id say, as the newer collets were better, perhaps another collet holder (and nut) might solve the issue? ask banggood to review one :)
I've tested 3 collet nuts without a noticeable change in test results.
All 3 looked basically the same and are very nicely machine. They probably come from the same factory.
But you are right, I can't exclude the collet nut form suspicion till I have a know good example.
All 5 of the inexpensive ER collet sets I have bought had insufficient internal relief for the front taper on the collets. Photos of the nuts from multiple suppliers clearly depict this fault. Example: goo.gl/images/XSwAiV. The internal relief is insufficient AND eccentric! Fortunately, it is easy to bore it out. Another photo, clearly showing eccentric and inadequate internal relief on the nut: goo.gl/images/hfJcs6
yep if he has a spare nut, well worth trying to mod it
Malcolm Till I agree,lots of run out on the nut ,may be pushing the collet to the side. He is not glueing the surfaces to check the fit.
I wonder if you have seen some other reviews on the same matter RM? Some have said that it must be the tightening nut that is the problem. How would one begin to address this problem :-O
I've tried some other nuts and in the end I believe something' s wrong with the threads on the collet chuck.
I see, well that rules out most approaches. You know how many of these kits they have sent out for appraisal?? A lot. I have seen four reviews :-)
All with the same ending more or less.
Since I messaged you i was delivered the small (ridiculously small) box of tools that has come with this old Gorton knee mill. And I found out that after all that work trying to source Brown and Sharpe #9 taper tooling and finally arrived at a decent start for my first project, in an instant I realized that all my work (40+ hrs) was for nought. On the side of the rather beefy ER40 collet holder with one 1/2" spring collet I read B.S.#10 Oh my aching head
I know Ray Caniglia review basically the same set. The were also pretty crappy. But I've also seen Myfordboy review an er25 set that seems to be pretty good. Apparently there must be good stuff out there but it's a bit of a lottery and so far we haven't been winning :)
@@Rolingmetal make your own screw on chuck for your lathe and then test your collet again. I'm sure you'll find the problem is the chuck not the collets. You said you'd cleaned your mandrel but are there any burrs that need to be cleaned off. My Myford had a few dings and I bought an MT2 reamer and used that, well oiled and light pressure to clean them off. The result was quite startling. I've since machined my own screw on Collet chuck with a commercial nut and the results are even better. Give it a try. My chuck is just machined CRS. Not hardened or ground.
👍🇨🇦🤞
I can see the wobble with my eyes that's not a good thing maybe now you need to grind the other part as well ,and one way to get better result's would be to make the lathe turn in the opposite way of the grinder and turn up the PSI on your compressor .
If you are doing machining for a living, you don't have time to fix a mess like this. American made are no way cheap... but they work like they're supposed to. One collet probably costs more than the bangood set complete... you get what you pay for.
Sometimes the Chinese stuff isn't too bad..but this isn't one of those times.
I am very sure there is no one in the US making ER collets at this time, but if you want good quality and accuracy, you gotta spend some money. These collets are not properly deburred, and it's a good possibility that they're skipping a process in heat treatment.
@@hraj283 I am very sure there is....
Just as you showed your third/turd joke my dog had farted so I got "smello vision"! How's that for bad timing!
Keep up the good work!
lol. A full immersive experience thanks to the dog :)
Look at 14:20, fix the eye on the lathe end of the cone, its look moving run out in the outside of all the machine, you can see run out at all the length of the collet holder fixing eye on nut or some edge, buit what worry its the run out of the lathe itself, there is measurement in the inside cone of the lathe to know if it`s good starting from there?.. also that collets looks bad that edges you point, there are some testings of some chinese collets that actually perform really good, sure there will be very high amount of quiualitys and a lottery o what you receive....
They probably made the collet Chuck on a hundred year old german lathe with an even cheaper grinder
My old lathe is probably close to 100 and German.......
You just might have given me a good idea for Emma's toolmaking competition :)
happy to help :)
The knicks are there to know how to insert the collet into the nut.
id swap the rotary components with carbide burs
If you look closely at the Collet Nut !It closely Runs out to the the bar run out !? good vids though !
DO NOT use the supplied air tool oiler. It will be total shit, and put through way way too much oil. Also you must run a water separator on the air line. Just a drop of oil every hour in the connector is all the die grinder needs. No way that oil and water should be spraying out, if the correct setup and procedure is used.
I've used my pencil air die grinder to do the same job and had no trouble. You must match chuck taper to the collet with Prussiian blue to do the job properly.
Also the quality of the thread on the collet chuck has a significant bearing on the accuracy. It's not just all about tapers. The thread controls the way the front taper pulls up.
I bought all my collets from CTC Tools online store years ago and they are excellent - the only seller I would recommend.
Cheers Rob
Thanks for the tip Rob. What tool bit did you use for grinding the chuck?
I'll try bluing but I got my doubts about it. The spring collet should form to the taper pretty easy giving a false reading.
I've seen the CTC website. Did you buy the normal or the high precision collets?
I used the same setup as you but with a small cutting disc, When grinding you need to keep the feed speed up, work from both directions, and only take very very light grinds for a job like this.
The collet will not deform when checking with blueing compound as you do not use the collar. You lightly blue the chuck taper and then insert the collet till it seats, rotate it half a turn by hand, then withdraw and check where it is touching (blue is missing).
You will find that the taper angle can be wrong, or the grind may be uneven.
I bought theirs because they were to DIN standard. It was a long time ago. They generally quote DIN (if applicable) and the accuracy level, so you chose.
Cheers Rob
plenty of thread to shorten it to get the exact 32mm at the face
That's possible. But it's already quite a bit to short on the inside when looking at the ER32 specs.
The nuts look waggle when the spindle runs. It may cause by 1. thread on the collet holder. 2. thread on the nut. 3. surface on the nuts. You can change another good nut and check for any improvements or not. If still the same, No.1 may be the reason for this poor collect holder and difficult to fix. Anyway, I treat most of the Chinese-made goods as semi-finish products and require further fine machining.
Looks like the outside thread is off center, or otherwise bad, the collet nut wobbles so much it can be seen from the video.
In the end came to the same conclusion and threw the chuck away.
Thanks for sharing!
I wonder just how reliable their military hardware would prove to be if the "South China Sea" area heats up?
They might, indeed, now have the largest Navy but quality counts. Their Navy, if it's anything like these collets, has to be low quality. I cannot imagine their weaponry to be that formidable if they cannot even make collets....
Are ! The ! Chinese ! Going !! To !! Win !! The !! War ! On !! Collett !! Chuck's !!!???
@@davidwillard7334 the Chicoms will lose because of shoddy collet chucks, yes, because their whole society is based upon cranking out pure crap.
It's well known, over there, that brand new apartment buildings WILL begin literally disintegrating within about 1 year.
There's no reason to think that they'll suddenly give a damn just because they're building an aircraft carrier, a jet, or a gun. I believe those aircraft carriers will begin falling apart before they're even finished. It's their culture. It's in their blood.
They pump out shoddy crap, period.
So, yes, I'm condemning them based upon garbage collets.
@@artmckay6704 Interesting Viewpoint ! You have ! I Myself ! Would have based it ! On! There ENTIRE ! Industrial !! Manufacturing !! Being OUT !! OF !! But COLLETT ! CHUCK'S ? !
They are cheap because they didn't clear the quality control (runout, nicks and dings etc), were thrown to trash where someone picked them up and put them for sale on banggood or ebay.
who says the original taper was correct? I would have set up the correct taper angle on the compound.
Why not use a cutoff tool????? Like is designed for facing off stock!!!
IT !! LOOKS !! LIKE .!! ALL !! OF !! YOUR !! COLLETT !! SET !! LOOKS !! QIUTE !! BOUND !! TO !! BE !! PUT !! STRAIGHT !! INTO !! THE !! METAL !! SHREADDER !!! EFFECTIVE !! IMMEDIATELY !!!
Look at the grinding wheel overhanging that’s the problem
Your run out is starting in he jam nut to start with.
Take up fishing. You have some sinkers now.
Few words about this:
You can't cut hardened steel with normal carbide inserts. While they are harder, the edge is not strong enough. These Chinese holders are definitely not hardened.
Surface quality depends on stone but even more from the quality of bearings and rigidity of the shaft. 3mm is way too thin. With 6mm shaft and good quality stone, finish can be decent, but nowhere near real surface grind quality.
You didn't tighten the collette enough. Rated torque is around 100Nm. Collette can't hold properly and straight when tightened too loose. Also with uneven lathe surface, they probably wouldn't do it anyway. Compound in small lathe is not rigid enough to make straight cut, especially when feeding manually. Also normal thin boring bar is not rigid enough. I made a cone shaped one for internal tapers.
I have the same issue with an ER32 collet chuck
I found grinding did not do as well as a good carbide turning bit on a boring bar with some wet or dry 400 grit following. Setting the correct angle on the compound was tough but doable.
I used a good ER32 collet as a reference.
th-cam.com/video/b8t4LLBtjQQ/w-d-xo.html