Good video but from the looks of it (and maybe its deceiving in the video), you are tightening the chuck way too tight and that's probably why you are get the tooth deformation on the pinions. A 5c collet chuck doesn't need to be tightened like a scroll chuck. In years of using collet chucks I've never had a collet come loose or a part slip with more than what I can torque with one hand on the T-wrench with the shaft between my middle and ring finger. On a collet chuck, you dont have centrifugal force trying to loosen the chuck and the grip on the part like you do with a scroll chuck. On average, a typical pneumatic and/or hydraulic 5c collet closer on a high end CNC's with automatic bar feeders usually have a closing pull force of between 1700 and 1900lbs. Now when you consider the thread size of the OD thread on a 5c collet, 40lb-ft of torque on the retaining nut (ring gear in the case of a collet chuck like you have) with average dry thread friction values is 1940lbs of pull force on the collet. Add in the roughly 4:1 gear ratio of that gear set and you only need 10lb-ft of torque on the t-handle at the absolute most.
Well, yes, and no. On my chuck, at least, the collet hangs in the chuck no doubt because of the rough pinions and drive gear. It takes a lot of force just to get the collet to close, at all. If the drive train were much smoother, then it would not require so much force, as you say.
@@en2oh I can see few. Unknown Chinese steel which probably won't case-harden, deformation and very uneven shape. Also, casehardening don't increase tensile strength. If teeth are already bending, they will snap of or still bend if the steel somehow absorbs enough carbon to become hard.
James, one way to think about any inexpensive offshore piece of equipment is to treat it like a kit. Yes, the kit comes pre-assembled so you know how it is supposed to look when it is done. It is still always necessary to disassemble the kit, finish any incomplete work and re-assemble it the way you want. Essentially what you ended up doing in this video. Thanks for posting.
That assumes any of the parts are worth further work - in this case, that is doubtful. Value Engineering at it's finest - they have engineered all the value out of it!
Yes, I think this is true if the underlying material is suitable, and if there's enough of it to machine, scrape, grind, etc. and still have something useful. Cast iron angle plates and surface gages are prime examples of this.
@Doug's _"...kit ... disassemble ... work on ... reassemble..."_ Exactly right. I worked as a bowling mechanic for 45 yrs, and took the seals off every bearing in the shop, washed with degreaser, rinsed, dried, and reassembled them. Bearings good for a year from the factory lasted 5 or 6 years in my center.
I’m sure you don’t hear it enough but Thank you for what you do. You have given me the confidence and knowledge to step my foot into machining. I am Getting ready to purchase a lathe and eventually a mill. You are a wonderful teacher. Just finished watching the Electronic leadscrew series and the way you break things down makes this hobby a whole lot less intimidating.
I was just mounting my cheap 5C ebay chuck the day you made this video. Excellent timing! I decided to take mine apart also. For what its worth, my cheap chuck was a 25 dollars more than yours, but came with three pinion gears that seemed be harder than yours as was the crown gear. The crown did not have a thrust bearing and it was uniformly faced. All in all no grinding dust inside. I did polish the pinions up a bit and fettled all the gear teeth for good measure. Getting about 2/10s runout with a 3/8 pin in the collet. Thank you!
As hobbyists, it makes sense for us to buy the cheapest thing we can. Once we figure out it works for us, we can buy better quality tools. Yes it can cost more money in the long run but I'd say about half the time the cheap tools work just fine for they hobby work I do.
All it means that you love buying Chinese crap. The Chinese are masters at making rubbish and they don’t even have to try very hard , it just comes natural.
There appears to be atleast two manufacturers of these super cheap collet chucks (and a million resellers of course). Just a week ago I bought a $200(Canadian) 5c chuck and it appears to be identical to the one Stefan got. Obvious differences being the outside was machined to make the parting line invisible unlike yours where it has been chamfered. Additionally, like Stefan's mine has no thrust bearing on the inside and a single dowel pin for aligning the two halves instead of roll pins. Like Stefan's everything on the one I bought has been hardened to nearly 60HRc and well ground on the running surfaces which will give it a good lifespan if everything is kept well lubricated. Seems like the chuck shown in this video has much softer parts and the bearing is there just to compensate for this. To anyone reading this looking to buy a cheap 5c chuck watch Stefans video and try to find one identical to his as it will last far longer. Obviously it is still a cheap tool, I had to spend about two hours with diamond files and stones deburring everything then cleaning it again, but after that process it runs super smooth and will last. Cheap tools are great as long as they cut costs in the right places...
Great cue to start a new project: Make some pinion gears and a ring gear.... I guess if you buy these its similar to buying one of them mini lathes as a hobby. The hobby in that case is improving the mini lathe :-). If I ever get the room to get one of those though, i'd probably do it :-)
@@donbeckham If the ring gear was machined reasonably straight, and the pinions weren't already deformed, and the material is something that would harden sufficiently, you're probably right. But I think at this point, the ship has sailed.
James, I was just doing a little bit of reading about hardening cast iron and I found that you can either induction or flame harden cast iron to increase the surface hardness. Apparently lathes still use that method for their castings. Might be worth looking into it to get more service life from that gear and the pinions. Gilles
...if the gear and pinions are already messed up, what's the point of trying to heat treat them?! Sometimes, you're a lot better off if you cut your losses, and save your money to buy something better! An inexpensive chuck like this is better than nothing- but that's about ALL!
@@daleburrell6273 what does a hobby machinist have to loose by trying to heat treat it? A chance it comes out better and you learned something, or a chance it comes out worse and you learned something. Also a chance it didn’t make any difference, and you had an excuse to play with fire and steel,
I just bought one from Precision Matthews for at least twice that much but it is the adjustable type. Tried to adjust it with no movement. I took the chuck apart from the included backing plate to find almost no measurable difference between the backing plate center hub and it's mating "hole". In other words; no room for movement! Someone forgot to finish machine the hub to allow for adjustment. PM was surprised as well as I was. I took 20 thousands off and got the movement I needed to dial it in. Got it within 1 1/2 ten thou. I'm happy with that! But all this makes me wonder if I should also take mine apart to check for grit ect. that might be there. The first issue was pretty careless quality control, what else is possible? Enjoy your vids, keep them coming I'm learning a lot.
well, I have several set tru chucks and have had similar challenges...so you're not alone. Quite a bit of difference between bore/hub diameters. Oh, and the really expensive bison came with swarf in gears...so, ya never know!
Well, Precision Matthews just buys Chinese machines and rebrands them. You can find the same machines being imported around the world under different names, such as Warco in the UK and elsewhere. There are different manufacturers of theses things which look almost exactly the same. Some are better than others, but you won’t know until you get it. Buyer beware. The problem with these companies is that they really don’t check anything other than their most expensive machines at the factory, and pretty much never once they import them. They get the boxes, and ship them out to customers. Grizzly is the same, other than for their South Bend line, which is expensive.
From all the videos I watched on TH-cam, it seems Precision Matthews are constantly surprised by issues with the products they sell. One would think they should be used to these kind of surprises by now and stop being surprised, but instead start anticipating these issues...
5 years ago I bought a Precision Mathews lathe and a 5C collet chuck. I opened all the compartments on the lathe and it was clean. There are a few things about it that are: Chinese, but it is actually better than what I had expected. The collet chuck is very nice, smooth operating. As a hobbyist, I'll never wear it out even if it isn't hardened. I got the 5C collet set by 32's. I've checked runout on many of them and they are quite good. I have bought some by 64s collets for the smaller sizes where 32s is too big of a jump. The good thing about 5C is how short of a part they will hold. I have two other tools that use 5C. The Set-Tru function worked as it should.
I bought the exact same chuck after watching the first video. I did tear mine apart when I got it and polished the gears with a soft 3m deburring wheel followed with a red scotchbrite wheel. I also made the back plate about .01” smaller than the chuck body ID so I could tap it around and eliminate runout. With a ground pin I got it to .0003 runout…lol. I haven’t used it as much as you have but so far mine is working fine, and I would buy it again for the money and convenience of have a collet chuck.
James, the collet chuck that Stefan took apart is from a different manufacturer. I purchased the same version the Stefan has, and it is good. You can see the difference. There is an almost invisible split line on on the better one.
I just bought one with no visible split line, I'm happy to hear your comment. The one stefan fixed had no bearings, just a nice surface that he comments that you can't fault the perfect finish on. Like you said, maybe a different factory👍👌🇦🇺
Hi James, I'm watching this for the second time and thinking about the "grabiness" when closing the collets. I would suspect the threads on the outside of the collet. I have a set of them from China and the threads are rough. I went over and "fettled" them with a small triangular file. Especially where the 1/8" location groove crosses the threads. All sorts of raged edges there. Again a flat file in the groove and triangle I the threads made a huge difference. I never checked the internal thread in the chuck but it wouldn't (or shouldn't) hurt to stick a finger in and feel, carefully, for any jagged edges. If you find any it will probably mean tearing it apart again to fix. But what else do you have to do with your time. Regards from Canada's banana belt. 👍🇺🇲🕊️🇺🇦🍌🇨🇦🤞
Hey James, a big thank you for this one, and for your electronic lead screw project. I found a new use for the ELS as I was working on mounting one of these 5C chucks. I was power feeding to face my new spindle adapter and didn't notice that I was about to hit the end of travel on the cross slide. When it hit the end, the stepper stalled and the stepper controller errored out well before anything got stressed. No stripped gears and easy recovery. As far as the 5C chuck goes, I'd say mine came in ever rougher than yours. Having watched this, I tore mine down for cleaning before doing anything else. There's no thrust bearing in mine, just ground flats engaging. I found the same casting roughness in the pinions and the main nut. Two hours of cleaning, deburring and bandaging (amazing how sharp a square ground edge can be) and it was back together and smoother. I faced the adapter and that showed dead nuts on for runout of the face and edge. Drilled and tapped mounting bolts, no drama. Mounted the chuck and had 0.007" runout on the nose. Arggghh. Fiddled with it for a couple of hours till I figured out that the rear face of the chuck just wasn't square to the bore, concentric but cocked a tiny fraction of a degree. A 0.003" shim in just the right spot and the runout is now down to 0.0005", consistent along the length of the chuck and a chucked piece of stock. Anyway, thanks again for the work you do on the channel. I find your videos and projects like the ELS immensely useful.
So sorry about your experience with this chuck. I bought a ER40 collet chuck and have had great experience with it so far. It was about the same price and included a set-tru plate in the CAM-4 setup. I really think the universe owes you a great, classic lathe. I was fortunate enough to luck into a DeValliere H140E lathe. There’s no substitute for mass.
Just learned a neat trick in a Fireball Tools Video today: when putting a threaded piece in your lathe, wrap wire around it in the grooves of the thread, and you won’t mar it.
I just bought the same Bostar 5c chuck, good disassembly tutorial. A few years ago I bought a 5" index head kit from India. Same deal out of the box it's seriously lacking any internal lube, and lots of grit debris. Once I spent a day with disassembly, deburring contact areas with a stone , and adding generous lube the unit scrolls very smoothly. I won't be having issues. The absolute key here is to disassemble your unit BEFORE any usage and take the time to fix all the rushed and neglected secondary cleaning and deburring that should have been done at the factory. Cheap is cheap and you get what you pay for. You just have to be aware .
After i received my chuck I took it apart as you described. I also saw where the ring gear was ground wonky. There was no thrust washer in the recess on mine. I have a friend who's in the heat treat busniess and gave him all the part to see what could be done. Their expert said the 3 pinions were hard but the ring gear was soft. Now at the cross roads, either I return it as defective, keep it as is and run it or have it heat treated and then se how it works. There are no replacement chuck any place in this price range, and most do not come with a backer adaptor in 1 3/4" X 8 threads. I'm temped to have them heat treat it if it won't cost a small fortune. I post back in later......
The question becomes more about the difficulty involved in making new gears. It's not the easiest thing to do but with an end mill, a hobbing cutter, and a dividing head it's definitely possible...
I'd also try to mill out the pinion axles and slots and add bronze bushings to the axle slot - after the remade pinions and 5c thread retainer gear get heat treated. Quite the effort, but they really are the only critical parts in this chuck; the rest is totally usable as is. Alternatively, one could buy quality replacement parts from a manufacturer that makes high quality versions of these, and either machine those parts or machine the chuck body ro accommodate those parts. Sure, one could buy a proper built chuck from a reputable manufacturer, but not everyone (especially not weekend warrior hobbyist types) is eager nor rich enough to spend big bucks on stuff like this unless it was absolutely needed for whatever outfit they are running, or intend to use it to make production parts, and thusly, make money with.
Hi James, I bought one from BANGGOOD in China about three years ago and I'm reasonably certain it was about $120 US. It came without a back plate for my Myford ML 7 so I made my own. It felt a bit rough so I opened it and found, like you, a bunch of rough edges everywhere. Unlike yours mine was that closely machined I had trouble getting the scroll out. Mine doesn't have a needle bearing. The gears are "hard" and I had to use a stone and diamond files to clear the edges. Files sorted the main housing's surfaces. I reassembled it and it felt much better. I made the register between the backplate and chuck about 0.020" smaller so there's a small amount of possible movement between the two. I chucked a piece of 1/2" drill rod in a collet, snuged up the three mounting bolts and then using a soft hammer moved the chuck until I measured less than 0.0005" runout on the test bar both at the face and about three inches out. I then tightened the bolts and repeated the test with the same result. As good as I will ever need. I've not used it alot but so far I've not detected any changes in the "feel" of the chuck . I guess it all depends which "bin" they came out of. Thanks for the video. Regards from Canada's banana belt. 👍🇨🇦☃️
Great videos, I'm learning a lot! When saying that the manufacturing process is "optimized", ask yourself "optimized for what?" High accuracy, 'value' quality for moderate cost, high quality, durability, saved $ on the design process, lowest possible manufacturing cost...
The fact that there is more ware on one pinion and on one side of the bull gear perhaps means you have been using mainly that side to tighten the chuck... just something to think about... Paint the pinion ends contrasting colors to make sure you are using them both... Oh and cast iron gears are cut after casting the blank...
Nice work and thanks for the well filmed story. Buying a Chinese mini lathe taking the chuck apart for cleaning was needed. The Chinese mini mill came with totally dry axial bearings for the X travel, a destroyed and not functioning set screw was drilled out using left hand drill bits. Adjustable parallells... full of dirt...
Mine felt a grabby similar to what you described. It got better after a teardown and cleaning but still not $500 chuck. As you said you get what you pay for.
Not sure if some of this is covered in some other comments. ( Ramble alert) The pinion seemed to drop in a lot when you pulled the retaining pin. Maybe it is depthed too shallow, and only the tips are engaged. You can drill and tap another retaining pin hole (in the body) on the opposite side of the pinion that will force it deeper into the crown bevel gear. More tooth engagement will greatly increase the time before a tooth fails. Add an other washer to the needle bearing stack? Reassemble with lapping compound in teeth, and give it some spins, then clean and reassemble. Also, find a good quality 5c collet and Lap the internal threads of the nut. Additionally make a quick external thread lap for your collets. The cheeper collets can have a bad scale finishes on their threads, and this will greatly increase the torque required to tighten the chuck. Finally, with the asmymetery of the crown ring nut, one of the pinions will have less slop then the other. For the final "gronk" to set the work piece, use that pinion( it will have better engagement). This should not affect run out like in a scroll chuck. Happy turning.
Thanks James for the video and tare down of the chuck. I purchased a 80 mm 4 jaw from LMS. It only lasted 4 months before I started having problems. I disassembled the chuck and found the adjustment screws for each jaw had the threads broken off. Was really disappointed in it. Like you said the material is too soft. I have not been able to find replacement screws.
James, I just open mine for the first time and found no needle bearing at all, just the recess. So the gear just turns on the bottom on oil. I may drill four radial holes for alignment screws.
I bought one of these as well. My spindle nose runout is 0.0002” however I’m having similar issues and haven’t taken it apart yet. After watching this I’m going to convert it to an air powered draw tube.
There is a technique to use on all scroll chucks which will give you better holding with less torque on the T-handle, and preserve your chucks for longer life. Your collet chuck has two pinions for a reason - use both, alternate tightening as you draw in the collet. As you tighten on one pinion only, the scroll tilts to create misalignment slack in the ring gear at the other pinion location. By alternating on the pinions, you remove that slack causing the collet to hold tighter with better alignment, and with less force on the T-handle. Less torque on the T-handle avoids over-tightening damage to the gear assembly in the chuck. The same technique on all your Jacobs-style chucks (typically 3-pinions, or key positions) will also give you much better results in holding drill bits to prevent them from slipping in the jaws. Failing to tighten all three pinions frequently leads to damaged drill bits, and damaged jaw teeth. Misalignment slack in the scroll loosens the grip when you power the chuck. Then allowing the tool (drill bit or other) to slip in the chuck jaws. Same principle applies to lathe and mill chucks, and all scroll-type closers.
This is why I went with a ER32 collet chuck for the lathe. Works with the collets I have for the mill, but doesn't rely on nearly as much mechanical quality. As long as the threads and taper are okay (and they are on mine) then it's good to go.
I did the same for my Atlas 10" after watching blondie hacks do so. Did not put the work she did into the draw bar. Chuck is Shars which might be a step up from no name.
With 5C though you can hold parts with very little inside the collet. Doesn't work on ER32's. Also you limit what you can pass through the spindle, short pieces only in the ER32, esp if you use the MT2/3 style.
There are a couple of things you can do to increase engagement of the gears. It looks like the pinions back out when the locating pin is engaged. Put a new pin on the other side of the pinion that locates the pinion in a little more... You could space the ring gear out a little also.
The "oil" fitting is often used for grease. I would not lube this with oil, as it will get slung everywhere. You could try putting some lapping compound between the pinions and gear and using your drill to accelerate the process. You could alsso look at hardening the pinions and gear.
Well now i do not feel so had i'd forgotten to go hunt one these things down. Last big project i worked on in my hobby-basement it would have been a great accessory to have had & reduced the amount of time i spent turning the multiple identical pieces in the 3-Jaw.
Nice work in getting it to a more usable state. The one i have needs the same treatment. Something in the inner threads binds on collets. Great stuff James.
I'm sure a lot of people have said this but why don't you face the ring gear and change out the shim. Since you have a machine shop, why not make 2 new tightening gears and harden them. Your next big purchase should be a surface grinder. I bought a used Boyar Schultz 818 for $200. Granted it needed to be refurbished but that in itself is a great project and gets you into the fine art of metrology, scraping, and such. More fun in the shop.
@@nuxboxenWhat I like about Jame's videos is he doesn't claim to be a professional machinist, he is a hobbyist, like a lot of us. I know for a fact that he puts a lot of effort into his videos including studying unfamiliar topics that he encounters. He always fact checks his topic to the best of his ability, and on numerous occasions has commented on his limited knowledge of a subject, asking for constructive input in the comments. His teaching style is one of the best on the Tube and he helps a lot of us with our own projects. If you are put off watching his videos, I suggest watching elsewhere.
This is hilarious. I bought one of these chucks a decade ago. Mine did not run true when I bought it. I had to make a tool post grinder and regrind the interfaces between the chuck and collets. I watched your previous video yesterday and was surprised how true yours ran. TH-cam suggested this today and it looks like mine may have been better than yours after all!
I bought a less expensive Ebay no name collet chuck for about 200-250 about 5 to 8 years ago. Kinda the same as yours but it had the re centering screws. No problems with it. The insides were clean and the gears not bad. I do think that with the setup that these chucks have, you don't need to crank down on the key. After all its a fine thread on the end of the collet and not a scroll like on a 3 jaw.
I just subscribed James because I've done this work in the past and one can get a super accurate devise by remanufacturing it; made in USA far east finished in USA here.
Remember the old saying you get what you pay for I have the same problem with my closer it helped me get a few jobs done before it started to fail so it was kinda worth it Looking for a new one
Based on your last video, I was finally ready to pull the trigger for the $150 (next check). The first time procrastinating paid off... I guess I will keep looking for a used quality one. Thanks- your timing is great! I would bet if someone with a hobby shop made quality replacement gears, they would sell.
I wish I would have known that you were visiting Monroe I only live about 1 1/2 miles from Yuchol. I hope to see you at the bash this year. Bill from Seattle. Really Monroe ! Bill
I bought one of these chucks and took it apart. It seems like Bostar took your review to heart. I did the file test on the gears, and the key-side gears were definitely hardened; I could only barely clean up the burrs at the end. The big gear was also machined far more acceptably. The majority of the burrs on the inside chuck face were cleaned up. (they missed one, but it wasn't bad enough for me to clean it myself) I can't say if it's good or bad until I start measuring TIR on the lathe though. I hope my copy holds true as much as yours.
Oh great... I ordered the same chuck same ebay vendor (CDCO tools) yesterday. Think I better take it apart as soon as it comes. Perhaps I'll shim the big gear for more tooth engagement.
James what you are calling an oiler looks a lot like a micro or pinpoint grease zerk found typically on air tool gearboxes. You can get a special grease gun for that style grease zerk.
just picked up an old montgomery wards 700a lathe and thinking about extra tooling -- thinking about collets and holders that might work for it this was a good video to help me thanks
Looks like the pinion gears got deformed due to insufficient engagement with part of the ring gear, because the ring gear was machined out-of-plane. Bad luck! Had you gotten it apart soon after your took delivery, you might have convinced the seller to send a replacement. I seriously doubt the factory cares at all about the pinions and ring gear, and only pays attention to runout and the finish on visible surfaces.
I've got the one with 3 pinions on my lathe and it's working okay, and I use it all the time. I'm not sure what the gears would look like if I opened it up, probably similar. Mine is 4 years old now and its my daily go to. The big concern with getting a Sjogren speed chuck is on the data sheet I saw it weighs 19 lbs, now I could be wrong about that, but if it does indeed weigh 19 lbs, that is way too much weight on the spindle bearings of a light lathe, and you have to double check your swing. It'd still be nice to get one, but it could be a very expensive mistake, potentially $1600 mistake. Mine is soft, I know that, I have to dress the nose eventually and that is going to be a future project. There are some small impressions from debris, but for what i'm doing at the moment it doesn't affect what I'm doing right now.
Not a chuck, but I recently bought a #3 to #2 Morse taper sleeve from Canada's equivalent to Grizzly Tools. I found the inside taper was 4 thou. out of concentric. The supplier sent me a replacement right away which was 6 thou. out! I suggested that they check their stock as I suspect the entire batch was bad. They gave me a full refund and were very good to deal with.
I don't know if you've also got one of those induction heater things... but this would have been a great project to harden and quench those gears with.
@@Clough42 watched some of the video again and you are right, not very smart design for the greaser, there should be a greasing groove to supply the grease better to the contact areas and to the gears.
I bough one of these too. Had to grind the collet taper to turn true and even after that the run out isn't great. While I was grinding it I took it appart and cleaned it like you did. But I"m also waiting for it to die and justify a better one !
I'm wondering if the lack of proper lubrication on the ring and pinion has sped up deterioration or if it's really just that soft. Trying to over torque because proper movement couldn't be achieved
Thanks for doing this James: it's always helpful to see what's "under the hood" before we start to take something apart ourselves. I chose to go he ER collet route for flexibility and cost, and now I'm glad. I' guessing that they used grease on the thrust bearing since it wouldn't see the light of day for a while ("use oil when you can access it regularly, use grease when you can't"). Even with the oiler, not much lubricant will find its way in between the thrust washers and get to the needles. I used to use white Lithium grease based on the recommendation from LMS, but after seeing how thick it gets over time (and learning first hand how difficult it is to get thick/hard Lithium grease off of the mating surfaces in my apron) I've switched to Super Lube™ for my lathe, mill, rotary table, etc. Sherline recommends this (oil or grease depending on the application) for all of their equipment. I use Starrett instrument oil for any precision applications. Thanks again, Charlie.
I am curious could you make the ring gear and pinons out of a metal that you could harden? It may not be cheaper but it could work with out bending or binding! Lee
I bought the same one from Amazon, I've had no issues so far. I've had it for 2 years now and have had no issues. Granted, it doesn't get a ton of use.
If you decide to upgrade your best bet is the Little Machine Shop 5C collet chuck. I bought all of the eBay ones and they were all cheaply made and soft like yours. The LMS was the only one that had hardened bevel gears and body as well as the ground face the Collett rides on.
Thank you for doing this: I've had one sitting in a box for months that I keep telling myself I'll break down/clean up/fix, but honestly after seeing how bad it must be inside I'm not sure it's worth it. In the end I'm glad yours at least runs true, maybe you'll get another year or so out of it and make it worth the discount price.
Yeah. I've been flirting with a gear-cutting project, and just haven't gotten around to actually doing it. I doubt it would ever be great, but it could be fun. I've also been thinking about ditching the gears and making a lever drawtube.
The one thing you can be sure about quality of things like this is that it varies. Popping it open - especially if unused - and smoothing off the pinions and ring even minorly, and re-lubing without smoothing or bothering any non-rubbing surface may go a fair way to improve the life. And you might even be surprised, and get lucky.
@@Clough42 As someone with a lever draw tube, bite your tongue. Great if you're doing a bunch of identical parts, but for the 95% of the rest of the time I wish I had one of these!
@@bradley3549 what kind of cons does the draw tube have? I have very little experience with 5C, but I have thought about making a draw tube to use with some fixtures I have or machining a collet chuck.
@@SW-ii5gg A lever action draw tube is really for production work. So if you have to make dozens or hundreds of the same part, you can fiddle around with it and dial in the collet tension and then it's just a flip of a lever to release or capture the part. Which is great and fast for that type of work. If you're doing a lot of one-off parts and swapping collets around, it's just a lot more fiddling than a collet chuck like this. Of course, it's also a fair argument that I should use a three jaw for the one-offs. But damnit, I love how concentric and repeatable 5C collets are! All that said, I'm sure some lever action draw tubes are easier to adjust than the one on my lathe, a Logan 14" 7500 series 'chucker' converted to a 6500 style engine lathe tool post.
I have learned a lot from you and Quinn. Thanks for the content. The spindle on my CD-210V 8x16 lathe has a MT5 Morris taper. Do you think a MTB5 collet chuck with a draw bar would be a reasonable alternative to a face mounted collet chuck?
OK, I'm 6 months late, but I just received my $150 collet chuck today and stumbled upon your informative video! I may do exactly as you have done after I get the mounting plate turned to accept the chuck and make witness marks as you did. I have a suggestion, since one of the pinon gears was kinda bents up, I would have marked that one as "do not use". My other suggest is a question. Can you apply a Cerakote or other hard surface treatment to reduce the wear after filing and buffing the mating gear teeth? OR can you heat treat the gears to harden them up a bit? The knife maker always show the heating and quenching on the TV shows, and that made me more interested in that process. I have friends in the heat treat industry and maybe they can provide some answers? Sure glad I found this video, thanks, Pat.
I use my Milwaukee M12 impact to remove the tap cartridges from mainly kitchen taps (faucets). They can really be well seized and the brass easily rounds off even with a decent spanner. But a couple of ugger duggers and they are out. Fantastic Milwaukee tool again
Every material problem can be solved by throwing money at it. If you're willing to pay someone what they want for hardened bevel gears, you can get them. That will be rather a lot if it isn't already a stock item.
@@somebodyelse6673 Thats what I'm asking is there not already a commercial off the shelf replacement for these? Pretty unusual for gears to be custom made... Unnecessarily expensive too.
As somebody else mentions, there's a tradeoff. How much time and expense do I want to put into improving this chuck. $500 will buy something more credible with a name like Bison on the side.
Disappointment indeed. Thought you’d mill replacement pinion gears ⚙️ in the 11 minutes left of the video 😆 Wouldn’t want to deal with that soft metal either 👍🏻
I have the same one and i was able to get it apart and clean it, and stone it, lost of dust and burs where holes were drilled. i havent used it much since ive had it so its still pretty good so far
I would have used sooooooooooooooo much more grease than that so I laughed when you said I might be over lubricating it. Also I would have definitely oil quench hardened those parts.
The one I bought last year was bad too, full of shavings, grit and horrible grease, the main problem with it though was that 5C collets wouldn't actually fit in it, I had to strip it, grind the rear section with a toolpost grinder until it was a large enough bore (about 3 tenths) and then I had to lap the threads in the gear using grinding paste and sacrificial cheap 5C collet as about half of my collets wouldn't thread in. While it was apart I stoned off all the burrs and sharp edges and filled down the collet location pin as it protruded too far and some of my collets slots were not deep enough. When it was back together it took about 3 attempts to get it nice and 4 tenths of runout was the best I could get. I should have saved up for a real 5C chuck.
After I saw your video last year I purchased the same one that same day and I have the same trouble. It runs true but like yours it really thought when I use the collets
wonder what the practicality would be with everyone buying these hotshot hardening kilns to buy another one for 150 bucks , harden and temper the pinion, ring, and body parts, and reassemble.
@@queazocotal Don't think PLA would last in this situation for long. But something super stiff and hard like a CF polycarbonate might work for a while. Though the CF will wear other materials out faster as well.
@@rileyneufeld7001 That may not have been a very serious comment. Steel, even very, very bad steel is quite a lot stronger than plastics, without even considering creep, which is a major problem here.
@@queazocotal Agreed just spit balling another idea. Though someone else mentioned hardened gears for ~$100 so that would be the best option without trying to turn a Ford focus into a Ferrari.
Just like you,I bought mine and was super impressed with the runout. The more I use it the less I am impressed. Mainly having to take the collet half way out for it to release my work. Maybe I'll try to clean mine up this weekend and keep hunting for a semi affordable collet closer
'Another great video, James. I have what seems to be the same chuck, with similar issues. I have only used it a couple of times, so it can't be very worn. I need to do as you have done, and give it a little TLC. Eventually replacing the chuck presents some issues for me, however. You see, this chuck fits my lathe directly: no backing plate needed. I really like that. I don't know if there is a better 5C collet chuck with the same mounting geometry. If so, problem solved, I suppose. I am wondering, however, if there might be a source for the scroll plate and pinions so one might prophylactically replace them? Perhaps made of brass, so the relatively soft steel of the chuck body won't wear so badly?
Making a new ring and pinion gears sounds like a great project. I’ve also got a Chinese 5C collet Chuck but mine has ground ring and pinions, it came used with my lathe, seems similar to yours but mine is a set through style. Looked at Stephan’s video and mine is more similar to his with forged hardened gears and the whole body is hardened.
Nice video. Perhaps a collaboration video is in order where someone can make new internals? You have inspired me to take mi e apart and see what it is like inside.
11:00 Time to spend a couple of hours filing down all the edges of all 3 gears. 11:30 I hope you washed, dried, and regressed that needle bearing, too. 15:00 You should have washed out the bearing. One tiny piece of grit in a bearing can create wear every time it's used. On a lathe, that can cause progressive runout. 21:00 you could spend a few bucks and have the gears heat treated, but they are probably made from such LQ steel they'd snap under pressure. Best leave them as is.
TIG braze some aluminum bronze onto the teeth and machine it down to spec. It'll work fine, but probably way more effort than it's worth. Might as well machine a new pinion from harder steel at that point. My experience was the same as everyone else's: dirty inside with grinding dust and other particles, but the gears were fine. And no you're not over-lubricating it. It's not possible to over grease a very slow gear set like that. If anything, you're wildly under-greasing it. A thick (NLGI #2 or thicker) molybdenum disulfide grease would be most appropriate for this.
I had wanted one of these but not after seeing the quality, and I'm not going to take a chance trying to get a good one, or that it will last. So, I bought a Bison brand collet chuck, made in Poland, and the matching Bison D1-6 backing plate. It was quite a bit more expensive, but worth it I think.
I have one like this that's much worse, including what seems like bad collet threading. This does inspire me to tear it down, although I tremble at what I might find.
Good video but from the looks of it (and maybe its deceiving in the video), you are tightening the chuck way too tight and that's probably why you are get the tooth deformation on the pinions. A 5c collet chuck doesn't need to be tightened like a scroll chuck. In years of using collet chucks I've never had a collet come loose or a part slip with more than what I can torque with one hand on the T-wrench with the shaft between my middle and ring finger. On a collet chuck, you dont have centrifugal force trying to loosen the chuck and the grip on the part like you do with a scroll chuck.
On average, a typical pneumatic and/or hydraulic 5c collet closer on a high end CNC's with automatic bar feeders usually have a closing pull force of between 1700 and 1900lbs. Now when you consider the thread size of the OD thread on a 5c collet, 40lb-ft of torque on the retaining nut (ring gear in the case of a collet chuck like you have) with average dry thread friction values is 1940lbs of pull force on the collet. Add in the roughly 4:1 gear ratio of that gear set and you only need 10lb-ft of torque on the t-handle at the absolute most.
Well, yes, and no. On my chuck, at least, the collet hangs in the chuck no doubt because of the rough pinions and drive gear. It takes a lot of force just to get the collet to close, at all. If the drive train were much smoother, then it would not require so much force, as you say.
It’s hard to see how much pressure is being used just turning the chuck key, but those pinions are too soft in any case.
@@clayz1 any reason you couldn’t case harden them?
@@en2oh I can see few. Unknown Chinese steel which probably won't case-harden, deformation and very uneven shape. Also, casehardening don't increase tensile strength. If teeth are already bending, they will snap of or still bend if the steel somehow absorbs enough carbon to become hard.
@@en2ohThat was my first thought also until I heard him say the pinions are cast iron, which cannot be case hardened.
James, one way to think about any inexpensive offshore piece of equipment is to treat it like a kit. Yes, the kit comes pre-assembled so you know how it is supposed to look when it is done. It is still always necessary to disassemble the kit, finish any incomplete work and re-assemble it the way you want. Essentially what you ended up doing in this video. Thanks for posting.
That assumes any of the parts are worth further work - in this case, that is doubtful. Value Engineering at it's finest - they have engineered all the value out of it!
Yes, I think this is true if the underlying material is suitable, and if there's enough of it to machine, scrape, grind, etc. and still have something useful. Cast iron angle plates and surface gages are prime examples of this.
@Doug's _"...kit ... disassemble ... work on ... reassemble..."_
Exactly right. I worked as a bowling mechanic for 45 yrs, and took the seals off every bearing in the shop, washed with degreaser, rinsed, dried, and reassembled them. Bearings good for a year from the factory lasted 5 or 6 years in my center.
1¹Q Q we
Well, if I get one of these, I'll be taking it apart and cleaning the heck out of it as soon as I get it haha
I’m sure you don’t hear it enough but Thank you for what you do. You have given me the confidence and knowledge to step my foot into machining. I am Getting ready to purchase a lathe and eventually a mill. You are a wonderful teacher. Just finished watching the Electronic leadscrew series and the way you break things down makes this hobby a whole lot less intimidating.
I was just mounting my cheap 5C ebay chuck the day you made this video. Excellent timing! I decided to take mine apart also. For what its worth, my cheap chuck was a 25 dollars more than yours, but came with three pinion gears that seemed be harder than yours as was the crown gear. The crown did not have a thrust bearing and it was uniformly faced. All in all no grinding dust inside. I did polish the pinions up a bit and fettled all the gear teeth for good measure. Getting about 2/10s runout with a 3/8 pin in the collet. Thank you!
Great word: fettled.
As hobbyists, it makes sense for us to buy the cheapest thing we can. Once we figure out it works for us, we can buy better quality tools. Yes it can cost more money in the long run but I'd say about half the time the cheap tools work just fine for they hobby work I do.
No kidding. We wouldn't even have these hobbies if we couldn't get this kind of cheap stuff.
@@ElectronicDrug Are you cheapskate? can't you just buy Kern machne?
@@Kawka1122 ... I finally managed to justify getting one some months ago and people are out here, assuming it's the basics
All it means that you love buying Chinese crap. The Chinese are masters at making rubbish and they don’t even have to try very hard , it just comes natural.
@@vankuipland they are masters at selling it. They make whatever quality you want to pay for.
There appears to be atleast two manufacturers of these super cheap collet chucks (and a million resellers of course). Just a week ago I bought a $200(Canadian) 5c chuck and it appears to be identical to the one Stefan got. Obvious differences being the outside was machined to make the parting line invisible unlike yours where it has been chamfered. Additionally, like Stefan's mine has no thrust bearing on the inside and a single dowel pin for aligning the two halves instead of roll pins. Like Stefan's everything on the one I bought has been hardened to nearly 60HRc and well ground on the running surfaces which will give it a good lifespan if everything is kept well lubricated. Seems like the chuck shown in this video has much softer parts and the bearing is there just to compensate for this.
To anyone reading this looking to buy a cheap 5c chuck watch Stefans video and try to find one identical to his as it will last far longer. Obviously it is still a cheap tool, I had to spend about two hours with diamond files and stones deburring everything then cleaning it again, but after that process it runs super smooth and will last. Cheap tools are great as long as they cut costs in the right places...
Great cue to start a new project: Make some pinion gears and a ring gear.... I guess if you buy these its similar to buying one of them mini lathes as a hobby. The hobby in that case is improving the mini lathe :-). If I ever get the room to get one of those though, i'd probably do it :-)
And bore out the pinion 'holes' and line them with a hard steel to prevent wear.
And and and and... 😁
Seems like it would be a lot easier to just disassemble it and heat treat all the parts.
@@donbeckham I was also thinking that would be a great option for a fix maybe.
@@donbeckham If the ring gear was machined reasonably straight, and the pinions weren't already deformed, and the material is something that would harden sufficiently, you're probably right.
But I think at this point, the ship has sailed.
@@donbeckham That steel probably isn't able to be heat-treated.
Seems like a nice project to cut new pinions and face gear once it wears out. It would be cool to see that.
James, I was just doing a little bit of reading about hardening cast iron and I found that you can either induction or flame harden cast iron to increase the surface hardness. Apparently lathes still use that method for their castings. Might be worth looking into it to get more service life from that gear and the pinions. Gilles
...if the gear and pinions are already messed up, what's the point of trying to heat treat them?!
Sometimes, you're a lot better off if you cut your losses, and save your money to buy something better!
An inexpensive chuck like this is better than nothing- but that's about ALL!
@@daleburrell6273 what does a hobby machinist have to loose by trying to heat treat it? A chance it comes out better and you learned something, or a chance it comes out worse and you learned something. Also a chance it didn’t make any difference, and you had an excuse to play with fire and steel,
@@firstmkb ...POSSIBLY.
@@daleburrell6273 true, as it is neither death nor taxes!
I just bought one from Precision Matthews for at least twice that much but it is the adjustable type. Tried to adjust it with no movement. I took the chuck apart from the included backing plate to find almost no measurable difference between the backing plate center hub and it's mating "hole". In other words; no room for movement! Someone forgot to finish machine the hub to allow for adjustment. PM was surprised as well as I was. I took 20 thousands off and got the movement I needed to dial it in. Got it within 1 1/2 ten thou. I'm happy with that! But all this makes me wonder if I should also take mine apart to check for grit ect. that might be there. The first issue was pretty careless quality control, what else is possible? Enjoy your vids, keep them coming I'm learning a lot.
well, I have several set tru chucks and have had similar challenges...so you're not alone. Quite a bit of difference between bore/hub diameters. Oh, and the really expensive bison came with swarf in gears...so, ya never know!
Well, Precision Matthews just buys Chinese machines and rebrands them. You can find the same machines being imported around the world under different names, such as Warco in the UK and elsewhere. There are different manufacturers of theses things which look almost exactly the same. Some are better than others, but you won’t know until you get it. Buyer beware.
The problem with these companies is that they really don’t check anything other than their most expensive machines at the factory, and pretty much never once they import them. They get the boxes, and ship them out to customers. Grizzly is the same, other than for their South Bend line, which is expensive.
From all the videos I watched on TH-cam, it seems Precision Matthews are constantly surprised by issues with the products they sell. One would think they should be used to these kind of surprises by now and stop being surprised, but instead start anticipating these issues...
5 years ago I bought a Precision Mathews lathe and a 5C collet chuck. I opened all the compartments on the lathe and it was clean. There are a few things about it that are: Chinese, but it is actually better than what I had expected. The collet chuck is very nice, smooth operating. As a hobbyist, I'll never wear it out even if it isn't hardened. I got the 5C collet set by 32's. I've checked runout on many of them and they are quite good. I have bought some by 64s collets for the smaller sizes where 32s is too big of a jump. The good thing about 5C is how short of a part they will hold. I have two other tools that use 5C. The Set-Tru function worked as it should.
I bought the exact same chuck after watching the first video. I did tear mine apart when I got it and polished the gears with a soft 3m deburring wheel followed with a red scotchbrite wheel. I also made the back plate about .01” smaller than the chuck body ID so I could tap it around and
eliminate runout. With a ground pin I got it to .0003 runout…lol. I haven’t used it as much as you have but so far mine is working fine, and I would buy it again for the money and convenience of have a collet chuck.
Same here. He just got a bad apple. Many others are great.
James, the collet chuck that Stefan took apart is from a different manufacturer.
I purchased the same version the Stefan has, and it is good.
You can see the difference. There is an almost invisible split line on on the better one.
Yeah I have invisible split line and no issues after removing collets about 100 times.
Who is the good manufacturer?
Hmmm... No reply or link? Thanks for your "wisdome".
I just bought one with no visible split line, I'm happy to hear your comment. The one stefan fixed had no bearings, just a nice surface that he comments that you can't fault the perfect finish on. Like you said, maybe a different factory👍👌🇦🇺
Hi James, I'm watching this for the second time and thinking about the "grabiness" when closing the collets. I would suspect the threads on the outside of the collet.
I have a set of them from China and the threads are rough. I went over and "fettled" them with a small triangular file. Especially where the 1/8" location groove crosses the threads. All sorts of raged edges there. Again a flat file in the groove and triangle I the threads made a huge difference.
I never checked the internal thread in the chuck but it wouldn't (or shouldn't) hurt to stick a finger in and feel, carefully, for any jagged edges. If you find any it will probably mean tearing it apart again to fix. But what else do you have to do with your time.
Regards from Canada's banana belt. 👍🇺🇲🕊️🇺🇦🍌🇨🇦🤞
Hey James, a big thank you for this one, and for your electronic lead screw project. I found a new use for the ELS as I was working on mounting one of these 5C chucks. I was power feeding to face my new spindle adapter and didn't notice that I was about to hit the end of travel on the cross slide. When it hit the end, the stepper stalled and the stepper controller errored out well before anything got stressed. No stripped gears and easy recovery.
As far as the 5C chuck goes, I'd say mine came in ever rougher than yours. Having watched this, I tore mine down for cleaning before doing anything else. There's no thrust bearing in mine, just ground flats engaging. I found the same casting roughness in the pinions and the main nut. Two hours of cleaning, deburring and bandaging (amazing how sharp a square ground edge can be) and it was back together and smoother. I faced the adapter and that showed dead nuts on for runout of the face and edge. Drilled and tapped mounting bolts, no drama. Mounted the chuck and had 0.007" runout on the nose. Arggghh. Fiddled with it for a couple of hours till I figured out that the rear face of the chuck just wasn't square to the bore, concentric but cocked a tiny fraction of a degree. A 0.003" shim in just the right spot and the runout is now down to 0.0005", consistent along the length of the chuck and a chucked piece of stock.
Anyway, thanks again for the work you do on the channel. I find your videos and projects like the ELS immensely useful.
So sorry about your experience with this chuck. I bought a ER40 collet chuck and have had great experience with it so far. It was about the same price and included a set-tru plate in the CAM-4 setup. I really think the universe owes you a great, classic lathe. I was fortunate enough to luck into a DeValliere H140E lathe. There’s no substitute for mass.
I didn't expect the gears to be cut that badly! Surprising it didn't already strip a tooth
The gears are cast not cut, that’s what makes them so bad.
Just learned a neat trick in a Fireball Tools Video today: when putting a threaded piece in your lathe, wrap wire around it in the grooves of the thread, and you won’t mar it.
I saw that earlier myself.
If you have lots of the same parts making a split collar is beneficial.
As far as stopping wear on soft parts is concerned the best solution I have found(so far) is moly-grease.....
Love coming back to watch these chuck videos after buying a Bison set-tru 5c collet chuck🤣
It could be an interesting project to make a new ring gear and two pinions. Just a thought, I'd be interested in it
I just bought the same Bostar 5c chuck, good disassembly tutorial. A few years ago I bought a 5" index head kit from India. Same deal out of the box it's seriously lacking any internal lube, and lots of grit debris. Once I spent a day with disassembly, deburring contact areas with a stone , and adding generous lube the unit scrolls very smoothly. I won't be having issues. The absolute key here is to disassemble your unit BEFORE any usage and take the time to fix all the rushed and neglected secondary cleaning and deburring that should have been done at the factory. Cheap is cheap and you get what you pay for. You just have to be aware .
After i received my chuck I took it apart as you described. I also saw where the ring gear was ground wonky. There was no thrust washer in the recess on mine.
I have a friend who's in the heat treat busniess and gave him all the part to see what could be done. Their expert said the 3 pinions were hard but the ring gear was soft. Now at the cross roads, either I return it as defective, keep it as is and run it or have it heat treated and then se how it works.
There are no replacement chuck any place in this price range, and most do not come with a backer adaptor in 1 3/4" X 8 threads.
I'm temped to have them heat treat it if it won't cost a small fortune. I post back in later......
The question becomes more about the difficulty involved in making new gears. It's not the easiest thing to do but with an end mill, a hobbing cutter, and a dividing head it's definitely possible...
...but why bother?! If the gear and pinions are lousy, what makes you think that the REST of the parts of the chuck are worth a dam?
I'd also try to mill out the pinion axles and slots and add bronze bushings to the axle slot - after the remade pinions and 5c thread retainer gear get heat treated. Quite the effort, but they really are the only critical parts in this chuck; the rest is totally usable as is.
Alternatively, one could buy quality replacement parts from a manufacturer that makes high quality versions of these, and either machine those parts or machine the chuck body ro accommodate those parts.
Sure, one could buy a proper built chuck from a reputable manufacturer, but not everyone (especially not weekend warrior hobbyist types) is eager nor rich enough to spend big bucks on stuff like this unless it was absolutely needed for whatever outfit they are running, or intend to use it to make production parts, and thusly, make money with.
Hi James, I bought one from BANGGOOD in China about three years ago and I'm reasonably certain it was about $120 US. It came without a back plate for my Myford ML 7 so I made my own. It felt a bit rough so I opened it and found, like you, a bunch of rough edges everywhere. Unlike yours mine was that closely machined I had trouble getting the scroll out. Mine doesn't have a needle bearing. The gears are "hard" and I had to use a stone and diamond files to clear the edges. Files sorted the main housing's surfaces. I reassembled it and it felt much better.
I made the register between the backplate and chuck about 0.020" smaller so there's a small amount of possible movement between the two. I chucked a piece of 1/2" drill rod in a collet, snuged up the three mounting bolts and then using a soft hammer moved the chuck until I measured less than 0.0005" runout on the test bar both at the face and about three inches out. I then tightened the bolts and repeated the test with the same result. As good as I will ever need.
I've not used it alot but so far I've not detected any changes in the "feel" of the chuck . I guess it all depends which "bin" they came out of.
Thanks for the video. Regards from Canada's banana belt.
👍🇨🇦☃️
Sounds like you got a good one.
Great videos, I'm learning a lot!
When saying that the manufacturing process is "optimized", ask yourself "optimized for what?" High accuracy, 'value' quality for moderate cost, high quality, durability, saved $ on the design process, lowest possible manufacturing cost...
The fact that there is more ware on one pinion and on one side of the bull gear perhaps means you have been using mainly that side to tighten the chuck... just something to think about... Paint the pinion ends contrasting colors to make sure you are using them both... Oh and cast iron gears are cut after casting the blank...
Nice work and thanks for the well filmed story.
Buying a Chinese mini lathe taking the chuck apart for cleaning was needed. The Chinese mini mill came with totally dry axial bearings for the X travel, a destroyed and not functioning set screw was drilled out using left hand drill bits.
Adjustable parallells... full of dirt...
Mine felt a grabby similar to what you described. It got better after a teardown and cleaning but still not $500 chuck. As you said you get what you pay for.
Not sure if some of this is covered in some other comments. ( Ramble alert)
The pinion seemed to drop in a lot when you pulled the retaining pin. Maybe it is depthed too shallow, and only the tips are engaged. You can drill and tap another retaining pin hole (in the body) on the opposite side of the pinion that will force it deeper into the crown bevel gear. More tooth engagement will greatly increase the time before a tooth fails.
Add an other washer to the needle bearing stack? Reassemble with lapping compound in teeth, and give it some spins, then clean and reassemble.
Also, find a good quality 5c collet and Lap the internal threads of the nut. Additionally make a quick external thread lap for your collets. The cheeper collets can have a bad scale finishes on their threads, and this will greatly increase the torque required to tighten the chuck.
Finally, with the asmymetery of the crown ring nut, one of the pinions will have less slop then the other. For the final "gronk" to set the work piece, use that pinion( it will have better engagement). This should not affect run out like in a scroll chuck. Happy turning.
Right, but which pinion has the best engagement will change as the ring rotates. You're definitely right about the threads on the collets, though.
Thanks James for the video and tare down of the chuck. I purchased a 80 mm 4 jaw from LMS. It only lasted 4 months before I started having problems. I disassembled the chuck and found the adjustment screws for each jaw had the threads broken off. Was really disappointed in it. Like you said the material is too soft. I have not been able to find replacement screws.
James, I just open mine for the first time and found no needle bearing at all, just the recess. So the gear just turns on the bottom on oil.
I may drill four radial holes for alignment screws.
I bought one of these as well. My spindle nose runout is 0.0002” however I’m having similar issues and haven’t taken it apart yet. After watching this I’m going to convert it to an air powered draw tube.
I half way thought when you showed the pinions and gear that you would machine new ones for the heck of it. Great video. Thanks
There is a technique to use on all scroll chucks which will give you better holding with less torque on the T-handle, and preserve your chucks for longer life. Your collet chuck has two pinions for a reason - use both, alternate tightening as you draw in the collet. As you tighten on one pinion only, the scroll tilts to create misalignment slack in the ring gear at the other pinion location. By alternating on the pinions, you remove that slack causing the collet to hold tighter with better alignment, and with less force on the T-handle. Less torque on the T-handle avoids over-tightening damage to the gear assembly in the chuck.
The same technique on all your Jacobs-style chucks (typically 3-pinions, or key positions) will also give you much better results in holding drill bits to prevent them from slipping in the jaws. Failing to tighten all three pinions frequently leads to damaged drill bits, and damaged jaw teeth. Misalignment slack in the scroll loosens the grip when you power the chuck. Then allowing the tool (drill bit or other) to slip in the chuck jaws. Same principle applies to lathe and mill chucks, and all scroll-type closers.
Unfortunately for this chuck that isn't as suitable - if you watch his original video the 2nd pinion introduced a lot of run out
@snaplash the key thing is the ring gear is all the way f**ked without fixing that anything else is wasted effort
This is why I went with a ER32 collet chuck for the lathe. Works with the collets I have for the mill, but doesn't rely on nearly as much mechanical quality. As long as the threads and taper are okay (and they are on mine) then it's good to go.
I did the same for my Atlas 10" after watching blondie hacks do so. Did not put the work she did into the draw bar. Chuck is Shars which might be a step up from no name.
With 5C though you can hold parts with very little inside the collet. Doesn't work on ER32's. Also you limit what you can pass through the spindle, short pieces only in the ER32, esp if you use the MT2/3 style.
@@gerritvisser my ER40 has a 32mm bore
Your lucky. Mine was not threaded right to accept the collet. Can’t return it so now I get to learn how to make a makeshift tap to recut the threads.
There are a couple of things you can do to increase engagement of the gears. It looks like the pinions back out when the locating pin is engaged. Put a new pin on the other side of the pinion that locates the pinion in a little more... You could space the ring gear out a little also.
LOL, "Do you feel that?" Yes James, I feel it buddy, I feel it... 😉😂
The "oil" fitting is often used for grease. I would not lube this with oil, as it will get slung everywhere. You could try putting some lapping compound between the pinions and gear and using your drill to accelerate the process. You could alsso look at hardening the pinions and gear.
Well now i do not feel so had i'd forgotten to go hunt one these things down. Last big project i worked on in my hobby-basement it would have been a great accessory to have had & reduced the amount of time i spent turning the multiple identical pieces in the 3-Jaw.
enjoyed, to split the chuck, when you pulled the bolts, re-insert but loose, now tap the bolts down to break the chuck apart, no pry needed….
Smart. Yuchol texted me with the same suggestion. :)
I'd be inclined to make replacement ring gear and pinions. Would make an interesting project and streets ahead of those cast parts.
Nice work in getting it to a more usable state. The one i have needs the same treatment. Something in the inner threads binds on collets. Great stuff James.
I'm sure a lot of people have said this but why don't you face the ring gear and change out the shim. Since you have a machine shop, why not make 2 new tightening gears and harden them. Your next big purchase should be a surface grinder. I bought a used Boyar Schultz 818 for $200. Granted it needed to be refurbished but that in itself is a great project and gets you into the fine art of metrology, scraping, and such. More fun in the shop.
@@nuxboxenWhat I like about Jame's videos is he doesn't claim to be a professional machinist, he is a hobbyist, like a lot of us. I know for a fact that he puts a lot of effort into his videos including studying unfamiliar topics that he encounters. He always fact checks his topic to the best of his ability, and on numerous occasions has commented on his limited knowledge of a subject, asking for constructive input in the comments. His teaching style is one of the best on the Tube and he helps a lot of us with our own projects. If you are put off watching his videos, I suggest watching elsewhere.
This is hilarious. I bought one of these chucks a decade ago. Mine did not run true when I bought it. I had to make a tool post grinder and regrind the interfaces between the chuck and collets. I watched your previous video yesterday and was surprised how true yours ran. TH-cam suggested this today and it looks like mine may have been better than yours after all!
About the time you were putting this on your lathe, I was buying a Bison 5c for my own lathe. I have not regretted that choice even a little.
Yeah. When this dies, that's probably what I'll do, unless I decide to build a lever closer
I bought a less expensive Ebay no name collet chuck for about 200-250 about 5 to 8 years ago. Kinda the same as yours but it had the re centering screws. No problems with it. The insides were clean and the gears not bad. I do think that with the setup that these chucks have, you don't need to crank down on the key. After all its a fine thread on the end of the collet and not a scroll like on a 3 jaw.
I just subscribed James because I've done this work in the past and one can get a super accurate devise by remanufacturing it; made in USA far east finished in USA here.
Remember the old saying you get what you pay for
I have the same problem with my closer it helped me get a few jobs done before it started to fail so it was kinda worth it
Looking for a new one
Based on your last video, I was finally ready to pull the trigger for the $150 (next check). The first time procrastinating paid off... I guess I will keep looking for a used quality one. Thanks- your timing is great! I would bet if someone with a hobby shop made quality replacement gears, they would sell.
I wish I would have known that you were visiting Monroe I only live about 1 1/2 miles from Yuchol. I hope to see you at the bash this year. Bill from Seattle. Really Monroe !
Bill
I bought one of these chucks and took it apart. It seems like Bostar took your review to heart.
I did the file test on the gears, and the key-side gears were definitely hardened; I could only barely clean up the burrs at the end.
The big gear was also machined far more acceptably.
The majority of the burrs on the inside chuck face were cleaned up. (they missed one, but it wasn't bad enough for me to clean it myself)
I can't say if it's good or bad until I start measuring TIR on the lathe though. I hope my copy holds true as much as yours.
Interesting nonetheless to see the corners that were cut to hit that price.
Could you buy one of these new, de-bur and clean everything up and then just heat treat the rack and pinions?
Oh great... I ordered the same chuck same ebay vendor (CDCO tools) yesterday. Think I better take it apart as soon as it comes. Perhaps I'll shim the big gear for more tooth engagement.
James what you are calling an oiler looks a lot like a micro or pinpoint grease zerk found typically on air tool gearboxes. You can get a special grease gun for that style grease zerk.
It looks exactly like the Gits oilers on my lathe.
just picked up an old montgomery wards 700a lathe and thinking about extra tooling -- thinking about collets and holders that might work for it this was a good video to help me thanks
Looks like the pinion gears got deformed due to insufficient engagement with part of the ring gear, because the ring gear was machined out-of-plane. Bad luck! Had you gotten it apart soon after your took delivery, you might have convinced the seller to send a replacement. I seriously doubt the factory cares at all about the pinions and ring gear, and only pays attention to runout and the finish on visible surfaces.
I've got the one with 3 pinions on my lathe and it's working okay, and I use it all the time. I'm not sure what the gears would look like if I opened it up, probably similar. Mine is 4 years old now and its my daily go to.
The big concern with getting a Sjogren speed chuck is on the data sheet I saw it weighs 19 lbs, now I could be wrong about that, but if it does indeed weigh 19 lbs, that is way too much weight on the spindle bearings of a light lathe, and you have to double check your swing. It'd still be nice to get one, but it could be a very expensive mistake, potentially $1600 mistake.
Mine is soft, I know that, I have to dress the nose eventually and that is going to be a future project. There are some small impressions from debris, but for what i'm doing at the moment it doesn't affect what I'm doing right now.
Not a chuck, but I recently bought a #3 to #2 Morse taper sleeve from Canada's equivalent to Grizzly Tools. I found the inside taper was 4 thou. out of concentric. The supplier sent me a replacement right away which was 6 thou. out! I suggested that they check their stock as I suspect the entire batch was bad. They gave me a full refund and were very good to deal with.
I don't know if you've also got one of those induction heater things... but this would have been a great project to harden and quench those gears with.
How about pack hardening the pinions to cure excessive wear problem?
Its not oiler, its a greas fitting(ish) conical push on greaser is uset to greas the chucks.
Looks exactly like a ball oiler. I don't think grease injected through that location would go anyplace useful.
@@Clough42 watched some of the video again and you are right, not very smart design for the greaser, there should be a greasing groove to supply the grease better to the contact areas and to the gears.
You could always use some of the large piecs for spare material for future jobs.
I bough one of these too. Had to grind the collet taper to turn true and even after that the run out isn't great. While I was grinding it I took it appart and cleaned it like you did. But I"m also waiting for it to die and justify a better one !
@4:07 are ugah dugha's imperial or metric?
Love that you did this, jut a thought, why not try to make a chuck from scratch, and use this as a templet?
I'm wondering if the lack of proper lubrication on the ring and pinion has sped up deterioration or if it's really just that soft. Trying to over torque because proper movement couldn't be achieved
Thanks for doing this James: it's always helpful to see what's "under the hood" before we start to take something apart ourselves. I chose to go he ER collet route for flexibility and cost, and now I'm glad.
I' guessing that they used grease on the thrust bearing since it wouldn't see the light of day for a while ("use oil when you can access it regularly, use grease when you can't"). Even with the oiler, not much lubricant will find its way in between the thrust washers and get to the needles.
I used to use white Lithium grease based on the recommendation from LMS, but after seeing how thick it gets over time (and learning first hand how difficult it is to get thick/hard Lithium grease off of the mating surfaces in my apron) I've switched to Super Lube™ for my lathe, mill, rotary table, etc. Sherline recommends this (oil or grease depending on the application) for all of their equipment. I use Starrett instrument oil for any precision applications.
Thanks again, Charlie.
I am curious could you make the ring gear and pinons out of a metal that you could harden?
It may not be cheaper but it could work with out bending or binding!
Lee
I bought the same one from Amazon, I've had no issues so far. I've had it for 2 years now and have had no issues. Granted, it doesn't get a ton of use.
If you decide to upgrade your best bet is the Little Machine Shop 5C collet chuck. I bought all of the eBay ones and they were all cheaply made and soft like yours. The LMS was the only one that had hardened bevel gears and body as well as the ground face the Collett rides on.
Thank you for doing this: I've had one sitting in a box for months that I keep telling myself I'll break down/clean up/fix, but honestly after seeing how bad it must be inside I'm not sure it's worth it. In the end I'm glad yours at least runs true, maybe you'll get another year or so out of it and make it worth the discount price.
Yeah. I've been flirting with a gear-cutting project, and just haven't gotten around to actually doing it. I doubt it would ever be great, but it could be fun. I've also been thinking about ditching the gears and making a lever drawtube.
The one thing you can be sure about quality of things like this is that it varies. Popping it open - especially if unused - and smoothing off the pinions and ring even minorly, and re-lubing without smoothing or bothering any non-rubbing surface may go a fair way to improve the life. And you might even be surprised, and get lucky.
@@Clough42 As someone with a lever draw tube, bite your tongue. Great if you're doing a bunch of identical parts, but for the 95% of the rest of the time I wish I had one of these!
@@bradley3549 what kind of cons does the draw tube have? I have very little experience with 5C, but I have thought about making a draw tube to use with some fixtures I have or machining a collet chuck.
@@SW-ii5gg A lever action draw tube is really for production work. So if you have to make dozens or hundreds of the same part, you can fiddle around with it and dial in the collet tension and then it's just a flip of a lever to release or capture the part. Which is great and fast for that type of work.
If you're doing a lot of one-off parts and swapping collets around, it's just a lot more fiddling than a collet chuck like this. Of course, it's also a fair argument that I should use a three jaw for the one-offs. But damnit, I love how concentric and repeatable 5C collets are!
All that said, I'm sure some lever action draw tubes are easier to adjust than the one on my lathe, a Logan 14" 7500 series 'chucker' converted to a 6500 style engine lathe tool post.
I have learned a lot from you and Quinn. Thanks for the content. The spindle on my CD-210V 8x16 lathe has a MT5 Morris taper. Do you think a MTB5 collet chuck with a draw bar would be a reasonable alternative to a face mounted collet chuck?
OK, I'm 6 months late, but I just received my $150 collet chuck today and stumbled upon your informative video! I may do exactly as you have done after I get the mounting plate turned to accept the chuck and make witness marks as you did.
I have a suggestion, since one of the pinon gears was kinda bents up, I would have marked that one as "do not use". My other suggest is a question. Can you apply a Cerakote or other hard surface treatment to reduce the wear after filing and buffing the mating gear teeth? OR can you heat treat the gears to harden them up a bit? The knife maker always show the heating and quenching on the TV shows, and that made me more interested in that process. I have friends in the heat treat industry and maybe they can provide some answers? Sure glad I found this video, thanks, Pat.
I use my Milwaukee M12 impact to remove the tap cartridges from mainly kitchen taps (faucets). They can really be well seized and the brass easily rounds off even with a decent spanner. But a couple of ugger duggers and they are out. Fantastic Milwaukee tool again
Is it not possible to get hardened bevel gears to replace the soft ones with?
Every material problem can be solved by throwing money at it. If you're willing to pay someone what they want for hardened bevel gears, you can get them. That will be rather a lot if it isn't already a stock item.
@@somebodyelse6673 Thats what I'm asking is there not already a commercial off the shelf replacement for these? Pretty unusual for gears to be custom made... Unnecessarily expensive too.
As somebody else mentions, there's a tradeoff. How much time and expense do I want to put into improving this chuck. $500 will buy something more credible with a name like Bison on the side.
@@Clough42 But new COTS hardened gears might only cost $100 and you'd be helping everyone else who fell into the ebay trap...
@@somebodyelse6673 Got a link?
Disappointment indeed. Thought you’d mill replacement pinion gears ⚙️ in the 11 minutes left of the video 😆
Wouldn’t want to deal with that soft metal either 👍🏻
Can you heat treat it ? That would be an interesting experiment
I sense a CNC project coming. One that ends with a diamond grinder in the spindle and about 1 million finish passes!
Bruce here,thanks for the video if I do have to take mine apart for maintenance I now have a good idea how to do it.
You might consider case hardening the pinions and the ring gear.
i have to wonder id lapping compound woyld workspin each pinion with a drill over and over with the compound
I have the same one and i was able to get it apart and clean it, and stone it, lost of dust and burs where holes were drilled. i havent used it much since ive had it so its still pretty good so far
Can you heat treat them? Buy a little extra time out of the ring gear and pinions?
So did you ever change it - it has been 2-years still using it or replaced it? Make a video update, would be interesting!
I would have used sooooooooooooooo much more grease than that so I laughed when you said I might be over lubricating it. Also I would have definitely oil quench hardened those parts.
The one I bought last year was bad too, full of shavings, grit and horrible grease, the main problem with it though was that 5C collets wouldn't actually fit in it, I had to strip it, grind the rear section with a toolpost grinder until it was a large enough bore (about 3 tenths) and then I had to lap the threads in the gear using grinding paste and sacrificial cheap 5C collet as about half of my collets wouldn't thread in. While it was apart I stoned off all the burrs and sharp edges and filled down the collet location pin as it protruded too far and some of my collets slots were not deep enough. When it was back together it took about 3 attempts to get it nice and 4 tenths of runout was the best I could get.
I should have saved up for a real 5C chuck.
After I saw your video last year I purchased the same one that same day and I have the same trouble. It runs true but like yours it really thought when I use the collets
wonder what the practicality would be with everyone buying these hotshot hardening kilns to buy another one for 150 bucks , harden and temper the pinion, ring, and body parts, and reassemble.
I think at this level of quality, 3d printing a bevel gear and pinions out of PLA may be a step up.
@@queazocotal Don't think PLA would last in this situation for long. But something super stiff and hard like a CF polycarbonate might work for a while. Though the CF will wear other materials out faster as well.
@@rileyneufeld7001 That may not have been a very serious comment. Steel, even very, very bad steel is quite a lot stronger than plastics, without even considering creep, which is a major problem here.
@@queazocotal Agreed just spit balling another idea. Though someone else mentioned hardened gears for ~$100 so that would be the best option without trying to turn a Ford focus into a Ferrari.
@@rileyneufeld7001 But Enzo liked those itty-bitty Focuses, er, Foci, uh, never mind…
Just like you,I bought mine and was super impressed with the runout.
The more I use it the less I am impressed. Mainly having to take the collet half way out for it to release my work. Maybe I'll try to clean mine up this weekend and keep hunting for a semi affordable collet closer
That's probably your cheap collets. The chinese ones aren't sprung as well as say a hardinge collet.
'Another great video, James. I have what seems to be the same chuck, with similar issues. I have only used it a couple of times, so it can't be very worn. I need to do as you have done, and give it a little TLC. Eventually replacing the chuck presents some issues for me, however. You see, this chuck fits my lathe directly: no backing plate needed. I really like that. I don't know if there is a better 5C collet chuck with the same mounting geometry. If so, problem solved, I suppose. I am wondering, however, if there might be a source for the scroll plate and pinions so one might prophylactically replace them? Perhaps made of brass, so the relatively soft steel of the chuck body won't wear so badly?
Making a new ring and pinion gears sounds like a great project.
I’ve also got a Chinese 5C collet Chuck but mine has ground ring and pinions, it came used with my lathe, seems similar to yours but mine is a set through style.
Looked at Stephan’s video and mine is more similar to his with forged hardened gears and the whole body is hardened.
Hey the fun part you did off camera and without a Timelapse. Breaking the restoration laws over here
Nice video. Perhaps a collaboration video is in order where someone can make new internals?
You have inspired me to take mi e apart and see what it is like inside.
11:00 Time to spend a couple of hours filing down all the edges of all 3 gears.
11:30 I hope you washed, dried, and regressed that needle bearing, too.
15:00 You should have washed out the bearing. One tiny piece of grit in a bearing can create wear every time it's used. On a lathe, that can cause progressive runout.
21:00 you could spend a few bucks and have the gears heat treated, but they are probably made from such LQ steel they'd snap under pressure. Best leave them as is.
TIG braze some aluminum bronze onto the teeth and machine it down to spec. It'll work fine, but probably way more effort than it's worth. Might as well machine a new pinion from harder steel at that point.
My experience was the same as everyone else's: dirty inside with grinding dust and other particles, but the gears were fine.
And no you're not over-lubricating it. It's not possible to over grease a very slow gear set like that. If anything, you're wildly under-greasing it. A thick (NLGI #2 or thicker) molybdenum disulfide grease would be most appropriate for this.
I had wanted one of these but not after seeing the quality, and I'm not going to take a chance trying to get a good one, or that it will last. So, I bought a Bison brand collet chuck, made in Poland, and the matching Bison D1-6 backing plate. It was quite a bit more expensive, but worth it I think.
I have one like this that's much worse, including what seems like bad collet threading. This does inspire me to tear it down, although I tremble at what I might find.
The great news is you're unlikely to make it worse. :)
Is it possible for a hobbyist to manufacture replacement gears for that chuck??