Great to see you back Mr Crispin. Just some feed back on mounting chucks on back plates. I always leave the register 0.1mm undesize, mount the chuck and tighten the retaining screws till firm, clock the chuck with silver steel in and tap till concentric. Tighten the screws up hard and all done. I've never worried about dowels to complete location and never had a chuck move in all my years of machining and the chucks still run dead true. Don't over complicate if you don't have to. Cam
@@gangleweed Thanks for sharing this, but I am perplexed: never heard of a three jaw chuck running dead true under any circumstance - except maybe with good luck at a particular diameter piecework. This is the reason the four jaw chuck is used when "dead true" is required. Of course all depending on the resolution of the indicator at hand, and skill and patience of the machinist . . .
@@gyrogearloose1345 Just as a matter of interest I have been a fitter and turner for the last 60 + years and I can assure you it is 100% possible to have work in a 3 jaw chuck running dead true if you know your machine and use the method mentioned previously by cam at battler. One thing you cannot overcome with a well used chuck is bellmouthing from overtightening and years of wear and tear......with that phenomena you would be best advised to invest in a new chuck......grinding the jaws is not a fix it solution.
@@gangleweed Well I'm glad it works for you. As for "dead true" - what does that mean in your shop I wonder? Few tenths, few thou, or "close enough" ? Perhaps I'm just nit-picking, but all in the cause of steering 'newbies' away from misleading conclusions. Thanks for your reply.
@@gyrogearloose1345 Dead true is just a description of your personal expectation for accuracy...........be it as it may, you are only as good as you can be with the tools you invest your time in.
Have you ever had the feeling that there is something missing in your life ? I have been having that feeling for over a year now and just couldn't put my finger on what it was that was missing and it has been driving me nuts - then MrCrispin releases a new video and its like someone flicked the light switch on a dark room ! Good to see you back mate !
Thank you for this video Mr C and to those commenting, now thinking about giving my Super 7 RDG collet chuck backplate 0.1mm clearance so I can tap adjust it to improve accuracy, which is not as good as yours.
Good to see you back! Another advantage of ER collets is that you need buy fewer of them because the clamping range of about one mil gives you a wider range than 5C (say) collets. I call these things "crocodiles" because they really hold your work. My experience, of course.
Hi Mr C, I too have a 1949 vintage Myford ML 7. I purchased ER 25 collets and a Morse taper 2 holder so that I could use them in either spindle or tailstock. I also purchased a couple of extra ER 25 nuts. I have since made my own direct mount ER 25 chuck which has zero runout in the taper and less than a thou in any of the collets I have used. I also have a number of 5C collets, a Chinese chuck with home made backplate, adjusted to near zero runout, a spindexer and now a 5C to ER 25 adapter and a 5C to Myford nose thread adapter so I can fit any of my Myford Chuck's, backplates to the spindex, all custom made in house.
While you were gone and building a new workshop... I got hold of 2 Raglan Lathes which are quite big lumps of metal. Famous for having the bed and headstock cast and machined as one. The quality of the patterns and castings is superb. Myfords took them over 1971. See the 254 which is a copy of the Raglan 5.
Good information Mr Crispin! I have just bought a ER32 chuck set from RDG and about to turn to suit, the front face and clock it to my ML7 mandrill - thanks for the advice!
Good to see you back in the shop again. Nicely done, that is very acceptable for a collet chuck on a home machine. I want to make an ER40 collet chuck for my machine at some point here when caught up with other projects, for many of the same reasons you chose the ER system. And, you're 2 away from 10k subs as of this moment in time, well done sir! Keep them coming as you can, I thoroughly enjoy your work.
you need that waggleing so you can woller out the hole... Your point about threaded spindle repeat-ability is well taken, Thank YOU for your time and effort doing videos.
I have an ML 7 lathe similar to yours. I purchased a Morse taper 2 collet chuck in ER 25. I also purchased a few ER25 nuts. A block of cold rolled steel in the four jaw I machined a mating thread and register for the spindle. Fortunately I have a used SL 7 spindle so test fitting was simple. Once satisfactory the block was threaded onto the machine and the ER25 collet dimensions machined in situ. The runout on the collet taper is less than 0.001" but a test of a 3/8" collet proved disastrous. Something like 0.008" runout. Removing the collet for closer inspection (the set was brand new Chinese) revealed shavings from the slitting saw trapped in some of the slots. A utility knife through each slot in both directions yielded a fare amount of rubbish. Once cleaned and returned to the chuck runout on a 3/8" end mill shank was less than 0.0005" so more than adequate for what I need. All the rest of my collets have been cleaned thoroughly and runout falls within acceptable limits with good repeatability.
Great to see you producing video again Mr Crispin. Personally i would have left the location spigot sloppy. Then you could have the option of tapping it perfectly true with a clock.My experience with these screw on chucks is they never go back on perfectly true. I used to work on inspection at a company that made these collets.7-15 micron repeatability was considered pretty good.
Hello Mr Crispin, new sub from your comment in Joe Pie's channel. (Joe Pieczynski). Like what you have done with your workshop and admire the machines you have accumulated. Green with envy over some if truth be known though restoration is obviously needed on some. One thing lightly touched by one of your commenters is that er collets require a relatively high torque. The er40 torque recomendation is between 130-140 ft/lb and the er32 being 100 ft/lb as these collets are mainly for holding HSS and Carbide endmills etc with very smooth and hard to grip surfaces. Also, there is a huge range of, ahhh, accuracy in er collets... Haha, and if that test was a no name collet I would be extatic with 0.007mm total run out. Looking forward to watching your content. Carl from Oz
Beautifully done! I suggest using button head screws instead of low heads (my least favorite fastener along with flat heads, due to small drive size). You may have different fasteners available locally but in the US, button heads for a given size have a larger hex drive than low heads, slightly larger OD, and greater holding power. For equipment that is in corrosive service, I regularly have the shops replace low heads with button heads because they rarely come out without drilling the head off. If it's counterbored for a low head, the button head can be turned down slightly to fit, and the projection is only about .010" more than a low head. On your lathe the edges would be friendlier if fingers ever got close.
Hi nice to see this lathe backing plate build. Nice corner release diagrams you shared. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your machine spindle tolerances. Lance & Patrick.
Cool to see you back! As always a nice speedy video, hope more will follow. As for your question, I mounted my C5 chuck on the backplate with some play and installed three M10 fine treat grubscrews to adjust. Got the chuck to almost run true, but have to admit only to recheck it when needed (most of my work is not in need of such accuracy). It made me feel more at ease knowing I could readjust when needed and love the chuck so much it is on there more then the 3 or 4 chucks. Kind regards, Donald
Great to see you posting videos more frequently as you do such a great job. As to the chuck mount option, at this point I would just turn down the register to be able to tap in to true since the threaded spindle may not register true each time the chuck is mounted as many have already suggested. I have a adjustable 5c collet chuck and would not have one that isn't adjustable. I really wish I had purchased a ER40 chuck but I already had a full range of 5c for other devices so figured I would go with that. If starting from scratch I would definitely go the ER40 route.
I have just added a Super 7 to my Lathe collection. So lovely to see you back and using YOUR BROTHERS TRUSTY TOOTHBRUSH!!! I also have an EMCO lathe but the price of backplates saw me go to Warco for them and turn and fit a new spindle nose. Much easier with more space for the nuts.
New Workshop looks very cosy and nice the little I could see. Feel a little stupid always envied the other collet people.. I have ER 40 collets easiest to get where I live . Good explanation about the parallel clamp on them and I will definitely into a ER40 collet back plate for my Chinese lathe.
Hi Crispin, nice to see you ramping video production again, and looking forward to more than the one a month that you have promised initially. In response to your question on further work on the collet plate, I would check the repeatability of refitting the collet plate, if it is stable then there is justification on adjusting the position and fitting dowel pins. If it does not appear to be stable then pointless doing anything. Having said that 18 micron/0.7 thou is still decent
Nice one, I am just in the process of making an ER40 collet chuck to screw directly on, I would be very happy if mine gets to the tolerances you have! All the best, Cliff.
Were SO glad to see you back-! Cant wait to see more of your videos and work, you have an excellent concise manner of explaining yourself & the job at hand and that makes the learning all the more interesting and your new shop looks amazing. Also hoping to see some updates on that steam engine you were building, and along those lines have you seen the videos of the completely restored and running #4014 Union Pacific articulated 4-8-8-4 Big Boy Locomotive on YT?! The Union Pacific shops did an amazingly thorough job of completely restoring her down to the very last rivet, only thing is shes oil fired now and not coal, but to see a Big Boy running again for the first time in 60 years is quite a thing here in the U.S., for years everyone said it would never happen due to the cost and doubt of finding one left in restorable condition - but #4014 had been sitting outdoors in a sunny California RR museum and first inspection revealed the engine to be in much better shape than originally thought. Add to than it had been shopped/serviced a few months before being retired in '59 and that made it the obvious choice for a restoration. Theres videos of both during the restoration as well as plenty of videos of it running on the mainline and they had it at the 150th anniversary of the Union Pacific railroad, what a wonderful year its been for railfans to see this iconic engine run again after 60 years, now shes the only running 4-8-8-4 articulated on the planet and a wonder to see in operation with its dual sets of drivewheels and siderods etc.
I would certainly prefer to leave a bit of leeway so that the rear bolts can be used to permit final tweaking for adjustment... something I did when fitting a collet chuck to my old Raglan. :)
LOL, your cat had me fooled @ 9:12, thinking one of mine was howling for food! Looked about to find nothing, and then had to rewind to solve the case ;)
I would try a gauge pin or something better then drill rod to get closer to zero. Silver steel is great but not perfect, just my two cents. thanks for sharing great to sew you make video again.
Looks good, ER are probably the best/only collet option on the ML7 given the small bore. W20, 5C etc are better for workholding as they are more accurate and you can hold really short parts but those collets won't fit into the bore and a full set of W20 would cost many times as much as the lathe so ER makes sense. It would be interesting to know the runout on the spindle itself and the inside of the collet chuck. In my measurements the runout on ER collets can vary considerably depending on quality and condition (they don't like being dropped and the cheap ones are no where close to Regofix or Schaublin (but they are 1/20th the cost). If the measured spindle runout is much less than you are seeing inside the collet chuck I think the best option here is to oversize the holes in the back plate, adjust the allignment (checking the inside of the collet chuck) and then pin it. The threaded threaded spindle nose should repeat if it is in good condition. Schaublin used threaded spindles on their small lathes and they are very accurate and repeatable.
Excellent video with interesting thoughts. For adjustment my personal preference would be grub screws, but I don't see the need for this at the measures runout. However: I would be curious to see the result of a repeatability check, i.e. how close your measurements would turn out after removing and reassembling the backplate.
I wonder what the run out might be when you unscrew it from the spindle and put it back on. I think the grubscrew design would be useful. I believe the 6 jaw chuck on Abom79's Victor lathe has that method of adjusting it's run out.
You asked for comment on other options for mounting. My preference is longer boss with 4 adjustment screws. I have this on a Shars chuck which they refer to as "Adjustable". www.shars.com/products/workholding/lathe-chucks/6-3-jaw-0005-adjustable-universal-chuck-2-piece-jaws My lathe is threaded 2 1/4in x 8 tpi but with this chuck I am able to get runout to less than 1/2 thou. I do need to re-adjust if I remove the chuck, or check before any precision work in case something moved. I bought a 5C collet set when I first got my metal lathe. Cheap at the time for a set in 1/32nd increments. I also got the 5C collet block holders, hex and square. If I could start again I would use ER40 collets. Good to see you back in the new shop. Dave.
nice run through, personally I favour the bump true fitting but then my collet chuck might be lesser quality to start with. You might find even better run out if you tighten the nut to full recommended torque,ie tighter than you might think.
Is your Myford a gap bed lathe? Are all Myford's gap beds? We don't get to see too many UK lathes over here in the USA, but it looks like real quality. Thanks for sharing and I'm glad to see you back. Don't be a stranger!
I have the same setup on my super 7, best money I ever spent. If you haven't tried one, get a ball bearing ER nut, so much nicer to use and for light work you don't even need the spanner.
Oh and I notice you mentioned up to 25mm diameter, you can get collets up to 30mm which is the reason I went with ER40 over the cheaper and more readily available ER32 as that topped out at 22mm I think?
i have mad a screw on chuck that allows the chuck to sit inside the backing plat & i used the hols provides as jacking pins to adjust to zero run out on test . & titan on bolts of back plat it is important to have a flat face. machined on lathe. allow a tenths of an !", fir adjustment up to 4thasenths max the face of the collet is required we can fit a set of jacking pins my be set in back& plat sides plat to adjust in the "Y" plans as in the X plan. if we consider it needed . to remove wobble on babbly machined collet chucks. it ma be a sows ear but with a little effort it can be the best silk parse you own . it can . & for the money it sufficient . my is set at 00. zero "run-out" & reportable . & if it gets knocked I can reset it.
As I see it, fitting a dowel pin would be advantageous, it would prevent rotational stress building up on the fixing bolts which in this case are not ground fitted shoulder bolts. You could of course argue that it's unlikely to be much of a problem on such a low powered lathe, but for the time it would take to fit (for example 6mm silver steel pin) and continued reassurance it would give for the rest of the chucks life why not do it.
I may be confused here, but isn't the head stock of the ml7 a Morse taper? If so could you not have used a Morse taper fitting for the collet and saved all the work with the chuck or would the ER40 collet be too big in load capacity for the Morse taper in the headstock? Thanks for sharing!
Springwood Cottage Yes it does, a number 2. I may be wrong, but I think the maximum collet size would be 5/8”. The ER 40 goes to about 1 inch, albeit only for a short length.
Id give yourself some wiggle room and tap to clock it in each time you use it. No need to dowel it but it will take out the lack of threading repeatability IMHO. GREAT VIDEO! Can you make me one please ;)
Does anyone know if myford is still buying used lathes for reburbishing and resell???? I know a deposit with 10 super 7's ... Look like they're in great shape but i don't know if the price will be a good deal... Anyone had sell yours to my ford???? How much did they paid you???
Welcome back Crispin, good to see your new workshop in action. Keep the videos coming. Regards from Australia. Just a further thought, do not understand Micron what’s the runout in thous?
Micron is one millionth of a meter or .01 millimeters. One micron is equal to about 0.4 thou. 12 to 14 microns of run out is about 5 to 6 thou of run out, which would lead me to check the ER40 collet for run out in the collet. I would expect not more than about 2 thou of run out on a lathe collet. I run ER25 collets in a chuck I made for my lathe and I see about 1 to 2 thou run out at the collet face. BTW, great to see you back Crispin. I am really looking forward to the locomotive finally finishing. My suggestion for you is to slightly undersize the bearing surface on the faceplate and slightly oversize the screw holes in the faceplate. With this done, you can move the collet chuck around slightly with a firm, but not full, tightness on the chuck screws and then lightly tapping the side of the collet chuck until you get the best available run out. Then tighten the screws up and check run out again to see if there was any movement. I would also mark the faceplate and the lathe spindle with alignment marks so you can achieve the same location each time you screw the faceplate on each time. Not fool proof, but it should keep the accuracy pretty high.
Hi Dave. A Micron is a thousandth of a millimetre. In terms of thous 1 thou is equal to 25.4 microns. So 18 microns or 0.018mm is equal to about 7 tenths.
@@MrCrispinEnterprises Crispin - I am so embarrassed. I dropped a zero on the conversion from microns to inches and this is bad for a degreed engineer. You are correct that 0.7 thou is well within the tolerance one should expect from a Myford lathe. I am not sure there are many tool room lathes that have that degree of run out. Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mas Mea Culpa. Keep up the great videos and I will make sure to double check my math.
which is the best, steel bearings (Taper roller bearings) or bushings bronze bearings. I want to have an old lathe but I doubt the bearing. Does the bearing fail quickly? and whether the precision of its work if measured around the diameter using a micrometer, sorry, my english is not good, hope you understand
Most if not all of this you likely already know MrCrispin, If? threaded spindle noses only relied on that thread then yes the repeatability would be poor. The spindle thread was never designed to do that job and it's only used to retain the chuck on the spindle nose. The spindles un-threaded plain register and what should be a carefully matched recess in the chucks back plate is what gives you the repeatability in both radial and axial directions. ER collets aren't and were never designed as a work holding collet. Few in industry would use them as a work holder other than for a temporary job. They'll still work fine as a work holding collet, but there speed of use is what's against them for production purposes and the 5C as one example would be a much better choice. For an ER collet to work as designed even when used as a work holder at least 3/4s of the collets bore needs to be able to close down and grip along the shaft length. The shorter that grip area is the less well they'll hold with an increase in axial run outs if the shaft length becomes a bit too short. If it were me? I'd add those 4 set screws and have the collets chuck body work much like a proper set true type of scroll chuck. For the amount of work to do so there then available for the work that does demand that level of accuracy. I also would have checked the collet chucks internal run out first and get that as correct as possible before testing with any collet. Even the finest ER collets made today will have some measurable degree of run out. My Bison ER 40s are good, not perfect but still good. The cheaper the collets price then unless it's pure luck that collet run out will rise just about as fast as the price lowers against something like the best Rego-Fix make. Adding those 4 set screws still only allows adjustment for a collets radial run out. If the collets in a cheaper set have higher than usable axial run outs, there's little to nothing that can be done other than properly regrinding the collet true to the spindles axial alignment. Most with a home shop wouldn't have the correct equipment to even attempt the work.
ER collets will go up to 1 3/16 from this mfg., I suppose that is the maximum size in the spec. Hope this nerdly info is some use to you or anyone watching. www.maritool.com/Collets-ER-Collets-ER40-Collets/c21_56_64/index.html?page=2
*"GASP"* A new MrCrispin video? COUNT ME IN.
Welcome back, young man. You were missed.
I like you're wire thread cleaner I've been doing this stuff for 25 plus years and have never seen that you never stop learning man!! Good job
Welcome back!! It's fantastic to see a video from you again. I had forgotten how well you explain things (and how much I enjoy it).
An excellent tuition video, I was just about to buy a part-set of original Myford collets, you've just saved me £150! Thank you!
Gotta love that!
Great to see you back Mr Crispin. Just some feed back on mounting chucks on back plates. I always leave the register 0.1mm undesize, mount the chuck and tighten the retaining screws till firm, clock the chuck with silver steel in and tap till concentric. Tighten the screws up hard and all done. I've never worried about dowels to complete location and never had a chuck move in all my years of machining and the chucks still run dead true. Don't over complicate if you don't have to.
Cam
Hi, that's exactly the method I've used for years.....my 150mm Chinese origin 3 jaw chuck is 40 years old and runs dead true with this method.
@@gangleweed Thanks for sharing this, but I am perplexed: never heard of a three jaw chuck running dead true under any circumstance - except maybe with good luck at a particular diameter piecework. This is the reason the four jaw chuck is used when "dead true" is required. Of course all depending on the resolution of the indicator at hand, and skill and patience of the machinist . . .
@@gyrogearloose1345 Just as a matter of interest I have been a fitter and turner for the last 60 + years and I can assure you it is 100% possible to have work in a 3 jaw chuck running dead true if you know your machine and use the method mentioned previously by cam at battler.
One thing you cannot overcome with a well used chuck is bellmouthing from overtightening and years of wear and tear......with that phenomena you would be best advised to invest in a new chuck......grinding the jaws is not a fix it solution.
@@gangleweed Well I'm glad it works for you. As for "dead true" - what does that mean in your shop I wonder? Few tenths, few thou, or "close enough" ?
Perhaps I'm just nit-picking, but all in the cause of steering 'newbies' away from misleading conclusions.
Thanks for your reply.
@@gyrogearloose1345 Dead true is just a description of your personal expectation for accuracy...........be it as it may, you are only as good as you can be with the tools you invest your time in.
Happy you are back,missed your excellent videos!
That’s why ER collets remain parallel... Excellent video Mr. Crispin.
Have you ever had the feeling that there is something missing in your life ? I have been having that feeling for over a year now and just couldn't put my finger on what it was that was missing and it has been driving me nuts - then MrCrispin releases a new video and its like someone flicked the light switch on a dark room ! Good to see you back mate !
Very well presented. You make a fine teacher.
Great to see you and I, for one, hope to see you more often.
Thanks for taking the time. 👍
Thank you for this video Mr C and to those commenting, now thinking about giving my Super 7 RDG collet chuck backplate 0.1mm clearance so I can tap adjust it to improve accuracy, which is not as good as yours.
Good to see you back! Another advantage of ER collets is that you need buy fewer of them because the clamping range of about one mil gives you a wider range than 5C (say) collets. I call these things "crocodiles" because they really hold your work. My experience, of course.
Gad to see you back, good work with intelligent back up knowledge.
Hi Mr C, I too have a 1949 vintage Myford ML 7. I purchased ER 25 collets and a Morse taper 2 holder so that I could use them in either spindle or tailstock. I also purchased a couple of extra ER 25 nuts. I have since made my own direct mount ER 25 chuck which has zero runout in the taper and less than a thou in any of the collets I have used.
I also have a number of 5C collets, a Chinese chuck with home made backplate, adjusted to near zero runout, a spindexer and now a 5C to ER 25 adapter and a 5C to Myford nose thread adapter so I can fit any of my Myford Chuck's, backplates to the spindex, all custom made in house.
While you were gone and building a new workshop...
I got hold of 2 Raglan Lathes which are quite big lumps of metal. Famous for having the bed and headstock cast and machined as one. The quality of the patterns and castings is superb. Myfords took them over 1971. See the 254 which is a copy of the Raglan 5.
Welcome back Crispy, you've made my Sat morning a good one
Good information Mr Crispin! I have just bought a ER32 chuck set from RDG and about to turn to suit, the front face and clock it to my ML7 mandrill - thanks for the advice!
An excellent tutorial! Easy to follow and clearly expressed. Thank you.
Love the diagrams, excellent teaching aid. Well done.
Good to see you back in the shop again. Nicely done, that is very acceptable for a collet chuck on a home machine. I want to make an ER40 collet chuck for my machine at some point here when caught up with other projects, for many of the same reasons you chose the ER system. And, you're 2 away from 10k subs as of this moment in time, well done sir! Keep them coming as you can, I thoroughly enjoy your work.
you need that waggleing so you can woller out the hole...
Your point about threaded spindle repeat-ability is well taken, Thank YOU for your time and effort doing videos.
I have an ML 7 lathe similar to yours. I purchased a Morse taper 2 collet chuck in ER 25. I also purchased a few ER25 nuts. A block of cold rolled steel in the four jaw I machined a mating thread and register for the spindle. Fortunately I have a used SL 7 spindle so test fitting was simple. Once satisfactory the block was threaded onto the machine and the ER25 collet dimensions machined in situ. The runout on the collet taper is less than 0.001" but a test of a 3/8" collet proved disastrous. Something like 0.008" runout. Removing the collet for closer inspection (the set was brand new Chinese) revealed shavings from the slitting saw trapped in some of the slots. A utility knife through each slot in both directions yielded a fare amount of rubbish. Once cleaned and returned to the chuck runout on a 3/8" end mill shank was less than 0.0005" so more than adequate for what I need. All the rest of my collets have been cleaned thoroughly and runout falls within acceptable limits with good repeatability.
Interesting
Great to see you producing video again Mr Crispin. Personally i would have left the location spigot sloppy. Then you could have the option of tapping it perfectly true with a clock.My experience with these screw on chucks is they never go back on perfectly true. I used to work on inspection at a company that made these collets.7-15 micron repeatability was considered pretty good.
It's great to have you back & with a great topic to start with.
Always a pleasure to watch your work and listen your perfect explanations.Thanks for sharing !
Hello Mr Crispin, new sub from your comment in Joe Pie's channel. (Joe Pieczynski).
Like what you have done with your workshop and admire the machines you have accumulated.
Green with envy over some if truth be known though restoration is obviously needed on some.
One thing lightly touched by one of your commenters is that er collets require a relatively high torque.
The er40 torque recomendation is between 130-140 ft/lb and the er32 being 100 ft/lb as these collets are mainly for holding HSS and Carbide endmills etc with very smooth and hard to grip surfaces.
Also, there is a huge range of, ahhh, accuracy in er collets... Haha, and if that test was a no name collet I would be extatic with 0.007mm total run out.
Looking forward to watching your content.
Carl from Oz
Clear and concise as usual Mr Crispin thank you
Excellent work.
Beautifully done! I suggest using button head screws instead of low heads (my least favorite fastener along with flat heads, due to small drive size). You may have different fasteners available locally but in the US, button heads for a given size have a larger hex drive than low heads, slightly larger OD, and greater holding power. For equipment that is in corrosive service, I regularly have the shops replace low heads with button heads because they rarely come out without drilling the head off. If it's counterbored for a low head, the button head can be turned down slightly to fit, and the projection is only about .010" more than a low head. On your lathe the edges would be friendlier if fingers ever got close.
Hi nice to see this lathe backing plate build. Nice corner release diagrams you shared.
Thank you. Thank you for sharing your machine spindle tolerances.
Lance & Patrick.
Cool to see you back! As always a nice speedy video, hope more will follow. As for your question, I mounted my C5 chuck on the backplate with some play and installed three M10 fine treat grubscrews to adjust. Got the chuck to almost run true, but have to admit only to recheck it when needed (most of my work is not in need of such accuracy). It made me feel more at ease knowing I could readjust when needed and love the chuck so much it is on there more then the 3 or 4 chucks. Kind regards, Donald
Great to see you posting videos more frequently as you do such a great job. As to the chuck mount option, at this point I would just turn down the register to be able to tap in to true since the threaded spindle may not register true each time the chuck is mounted as many have already suggested. I have a adjustable 5c collet chuck and would not have one that isn't adjustable. I really wish I had purchased a ER40 chuck but I already had a full range of 5c for other devices so figured I would go with that. If starting from scratch I would definitely go the ER40 route.
I have just added a Super 7 to my Lathe collection.
So lovely to see you back and using YOUR BROTHERS TRUSTY TOOTHBRUSH!!!
I also have an EMCO lathe but the price of backplates saw me go to Warco for them and turn and fit a new spindle nose. Much easier with more space for the nuts.
Nice machining and good explanation. Thanks.
Good to see you back. I think you have the collet chuck to an acceptable runout on a Myford without needing any further work. Dean in Oxfordshire.
"Tremendous" Good to see you back with your very informative videos.
I always love learning something
18 micron is 0.0007”. I would be more than pleased with that. Chris
Excellent video. Many thanks.
Just thre right time for this video a ER40 collet chuck arrivewd today so mounting using your tips is great thanks
That is serendipitous ! (wow! spelled it right first time. Promise!)
Nice to see mr crispin back in action!!
New Workshop looks very cosy and nice the little I could see. Feel a little stupid always envied the other collet people.. I have ER 40 collets easiest to get where I live . Good explanation about the parallel clamp on them and I will definitely into a ER40 collet back plate for my Chinese lathe.
Great idea on how to clean the threads !
Well done and welcome back.
The information around the ER collet was interesting. I have ER collets in my shop but never gave them that much thought. Cheers
it wat you are growing to ues them for if fabrication & drill work then Not so fused Unless of for your tolerance is Zero 00
Umm...what?
Nice to see you're back!
Thank you for nice and understanding video it will help me on my Myford!
Hi Crispin, nice to see you ramping video production again, and looking forward to more than the one a month that you have promised initially.
In response to your question on further work on the collet plate, I would check the repeatability of refitting the collet plate, if it is stable then there is justification on adjusting the position and fitting dowel pins. If it does not appear to be stable then pointless doing anything. Having said that 18 micron/0.7 thou is still decent
Excellent !!
Welcome back !!
good to see you again!
I love the Er 40 collets and chucks, Uber versatile.
Nice one, I am just in the process of making an ER40 collet chuck to screw directly on, I would be very happy if mine gets to the tolerances you have!
All the best,
Cliff.
happy to see you again!!
Were SO glad to see you back-! Cant wait to see more of your videos and work, you have an excellent concise manner of explaining yourself & the job at hand and that makes the learning all the more interesting and your new shop looks amazing. Also hoping to see some updates on that steam engine you were building, and along those lines have you seen the videos of the completely restored and running #4014 Union Pacific articulated 4-8-8-4 Big Boy Locomotive on YT?! The Union Pacific shops did an amazingly thorough job of completely restoring her down to the very last rivet, only thing is shes oil fired now and not coal, but to see a Big Boy running again for the first time in 60 years is quite a thing here in the U.S., for years everyone said it would never happen due to the cost and doubt of finding one left in restorable condition - but #4014 had been sitting outdoors in a sunny California RR museum and first inspection revealed the engine to be in much better shape than originally thought. Add to than it had been shopped/serviced a few months before being retired in '59 and that made it the obvious choice for a restoration. Theres videos of both during the restoration as well as plenty of videos of it running on the mainline and they had it at the 150th anniversary of the Union Pacific railroad, what a wonderful year its been for railfans to see this iconic engine run again after 60 years, now shes the only running 4-8-8-4 articulated on the planet and a wonder to see in operation with its dual sets of drivewheels and siderods etc.
Mr, Crispin is back nice video...
I would certainly prefer to leave a bit of leeway so that the rear bolts can be used to permit final tweaking for adjustment... something I did when fitting a collet chuck to my old Raglan. :)
LOL, your cat had me fooled @ 9:12, thinking one of mine was howling for food! Looked about to find nothing, and then had to rewind to solve the case ;)
Very interesting Crispin thank you ..........
I would try a gauge pin or something better then drill rod to get closer to zero. Silver steel is great but not perfect, just my two cents. thanks for sharing great to sew you make video again.
Looks good, ER are probably the best/only collet option on the ML7 given the small bore. W20, 5C etc are better for workholding as they are more accurate and you can hold really short parts but those collets won't fit into the bore and a full set of W20 would cost many times as much as the lathe so ER makes sense.
It would be interesting to know the runout on the spindle itself and the inside of the collet chuck. In my measurements the runout on ER collets can vary considerably depending on quality and condition (they don't like being dropped and the cheap ones are no where close to Regofix or Schaublin (but they are 1/20th the cost).
If the measured spindle runout is much less than you are seeing inside the collet chuck I think the best option here is to oversize the holes in the back plate, adjust the allignment (checking the inside of the collet chuck) and then pin it. The threaded threaded spindle nose should repeat if it is in good condition. Schaublin used threaded spindles on their small lathes and they are very accurate and repeatable.
Excellent video with interesting thoughts.
For adjustment my personal preference would be grub screws, but I don't see the need for this at the measures runout.
However: I would be curious to see the result of a repeatability check, i.e. how close your measurements would turn out after removing and reassembling the backplate.
YES!!!!! sounds like he is starting to build up steam, and be back to full throttle TH-cam production again....No pressure though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mr. Crispin is back, hurray. 👍
Loco.....?
Welcome Back . . .
Abom who? ... lets hear it for MrCrispin!
Nice one on the 10K subs mark.
21.4K subscribers at 13 march march 2021. Good one Crispin !
Finally ... a new video.
I wonder what the run out might be when you unscrew it from the spindle and put it back on. I think the grubscrew design would be useful. I believe the 6 jaw chuck on Abom79's Victor lathe has that method of adjusting it's run out.
I prefer the screws to bump true as it provides a positive means to it not getting bumped out while in use.
you have MANY American friends!!!
You asked for comment on other options for mounting. My preference is longer boss with 4 adjustment screws. I have this on a Shars chuck which they refer to as "Adjustable".
www.shars.com/products/workholding/lathe-chucks/6-3-jaw-0005-adjustable-universal-chuck-2-piece-jaws
My lathe is threaded 2 1/4in x 8 tpi but with this chuck I am able to get runout to less than 1/2 thou. I do need to re-adjust if I remove the chuck, or check before any precision work in case something moved.
I bought a 5C collet set when I first got my metal lathe. Cheap at the time for a set in 1/32nd increments. I also got the 5C collet block holders, hex and square.
If I could start again I would use ER40 collets.
Good to see you back in the new shop.
Dave.
nice run through, personally I favour the bump true fitting but then my collet chuck might be lesser quality to start with.
You might find even better run out if you tighten the nut to full recommended torque,ie tighter than you might think.
Is your Myford a gap bed lathe? Are all Myford's gap beds? We don't get to see too many UK lathes over here in the USA, but it looks like real quality. Thanks for sharing and I'm glad to see you back. Don't be a stranger!
Excellent video, I've been wanting to do the same for my ml7. Where did the chuck with a plate mounting come from?
I think he mentioned RDG tools, UK. That was for the chuck or the mounting plate? not sure . . .
I have the same setup on my super 7, best money I ever spent. If you haven't tried one, get a ball bearing ER nut, so much nicer to use and for light work you don't even need the spanner.
Oh and I notice you mentioned up to 25mm diameter, you can get collets up to 30mm which is the reason I went with ER40 over the cheaper and more readily available ER32 as that topped out at 22mm I think?
Always liked ER collets for there range and price
Oh waggling. What a lovely word.
Nice job. There may have been some minor imperfections in the drill rod causing some of your run out.
what's the trend Pitch & TPI?.
i have mad a screw on chuck that allows the chuck to sit inside the backing plat & i used the hols provides as jacking pins to adjust to zero run out on test . & titan on bolts of back plat it is important to have a flat face. machined on lathe. allow a tenths of an !", fir adjustment up to 4thasenths max the face of the collet is required we can fit a set of jacking pins my be set in back& plat sides plat to adjust in the "Y" plans as in the X plan. if we consider it needed . to remove wobble on babbly machined collet chucks. it ma be a sows ear but with a little effort it can be the best silk parse you own . it can . & for the money it sufficient . my is set at 00. zero "run-out" & reportable . & if it gets knocked I can reset it.
👍
As I see it, fitting a dowel pin would be advantageous, it would prevent rotational stress building up on the fixing bolts which in this case are not ground fitted shoulder bolts. You could of course argue that it's unlikely to be much of a problem on such a low powered lathe, but for the time it would take to fit (for example 6mm silver steel pin) and continued reassurance it would give for the rest of the chucks life why not do it.
I may be confused here, but isn't the head stock of the ml7 a Morse taper? If so could you not have used a Morse taper fitting for the collet and saved all the work with the chuck or would the ER40 collet be too big in load capacity for the Morse taper in the headstock? Thanks for sharing!
Springwood Cottage Yes it does, a number 2. I may be wrong, but I think the maximum collet size would be 5/8”. The ER 40 goes to about 1 inch, albeit only for a short length.
You could, but you lose the ability to pass long stock through the head.
👍👍😎👍👍
Id give yourself some wiggle room and tap to clock it in each time you use it. No need to dowel it but it will take out the lack of threading repeatability IMHO. GREAT VIDEO! Can you make me one please ;)
Would be nice if the spindle itself was big enough where you could machine the end to accept an er-40 collet and a custom nut.
hey mister crispin nice video j wonder how did you lock de spindel of de ml7
Hi, you just lift the leaver up to put it in to back gear
@@MrCrispinEnterprises I have heard that then you cane dammage the teeth of it
It's never caused me any trouble. If you hit it really hard you could damage something I geuss.
Does anyone know if myford is still buying used lathes for reburbishing and resell???? I know a deposit with 10 super 7's ... Look like they're in great shape but i don't know if the price will be a good deal... Anyone had sell yours to my ford???? How much did they paid you???
The chuck has some radial holes what are they for ?
Getting it on and off as it's a screw type spindle nose.
Welcome back Crispin, good to see your new workshop in action. Keep the videos coming. Regards from Australia. Just a further thought, do not understand Micron what’s the runout in thous?
Micron is one millionth of a meter or .01 millimeters. One micron is equal to about 0.4 thou. 12 to 14 microns of run out is about 5 to 6 thou of run out, which would lead me to check the ER40 collet for run out in the collet. I would expect not more than about 2 thou of run out on a lathe collet. I run ER25 collets in a chuck I made for my lathe and I see about 1 to 2 thou run out at the collet face.
BTW, great to see you back Crispin. I am really looking forward to the locomotive finally finishing. My suggestion for you is to slightly undersize the bearing surface on the faceplate and slightly oversize the screw holes in the faceplate. With this done, you can move the collet chuck around slightly with a firm, but not full, tightness on the chuck screws and then lightly tapping the side of the collet chuck until you get the best available run out. Then tighten the screws up and check run out again to see if there was any movement. I would also mark the faceplate and the lathe spindle with alignment marks so you can achieve the same location each time you screw the faceplate on each time. Not fool proof, but it should keep the accuracy pretty high.
Hi Dave. A Micron is a thousandth of a millimetre. In terms of thous 1 thou is equal to 25.4 microns. So 18 microns or 0.018mm is equal to about 7 tenths.
@@MrCrispinEnterprises Crispin - I am so embarrassed. I dropped a zero on the conversion from microns to inches and this is bad for a degreed engineer.
You are correct that 0.7 thou is well within the tolerance one should expect from a Myford lathe. I am not sure there are many tool room lathes that have that degree of run out.
Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mas Mea Culpa.
Keep up the great videos and I will make sure to double check my math.
Don't worry! An easy mistake to make. Cheers
I have a myford super seven series
which is the best, steel bearings (Taper roller bearings) or bushings bronze bearings.
I want to have an old lathe but I doubt the bearing.
Does the bearing fail quickly? and whether the precision of its work if measured around the diameter using a micrometer,
sorry, my english is not good, hope you understand
He must live in the same town as project Binky .....
If you used 4 grub screws you could even leave the back plate the way it is and just use 6 mill or something..
Grub screw method.
Most if not all of this you likely already know MrCrispin,
If? threaded spindle noses only relied on that thread then yes the repeatability would be poor. The spindle thread was never designed to do that job and it's only used to retain the chuck on the spindle nose. The spindles un-threaded plain register and what should be a carefully matched recess in the chucks back plate is what gives you the repeatability in both radial and axial directions.
ER collets aren't and were never designed as a work holding collet. Few in industry would use them as a work holder other than for a temporary job. They'll still work fine as a work holding collet, but there speed of use is what's against them for production purposes and the 5C as one example would be a much better choice. For an ER collet to work as designed even when used as a work holder at least 3/4s of the collets bore needs to be able to close down and grip along the shaft length. The shorter that grip area is the less well they'll hold with an increase in axial run outs if the shaft length becomes a bit too short.
If it were me? I'd add those 4 set screws and have the collets chuck body work much like a proper set true type of scroll chuck. For the amount of work to do so there then available for the work that does demand that level of accuracy. I also would have checked the collet chucks internal run out first and get that as correct as possible before testing with any collet. Even the finest ER collets made today will have some measurable degree of run out. My Bison ER 40s are good, not perfect but still good. The cheaper the collets price then unless it's pure luck that collet run out will rise just about as fast as the price lowers against something like the best Rego-Fix make. Adding those 4 set screws still only allows adjustment for a collets radial run out. If the collets in a cheaper set have higher than usable axial run outs, there's little to nothing that can be done other than properly regrinding the collet true to the spindles axial alignment. Most with a home shop wouldn't have the correct equipment to even attempt the work.
this video seems to go to a older image - I was not prepared for that.
Hy does your dad have a yt chanel named Oldfoundryman???
ER collets will go up to 1 3/16 from this mfg., I suppose that is the maximum size in the spec.
Hope this nerdly info is some use to you or anyone watching.
www.maritool.com/Collets-ER-Collets-ER40-Collets/c21_56_64/index.html?page=2
Pay attention to your audio please
Can you give me more detail?