I was a machinist in my younger years and there’s no way anybody can convince me that a brass or bronze bore brush will harm a gun barrel. The forces generated when a bullet is shot through a barrel are much greater than any human can generate while cleaning a barrel. I think your video proved that as well. Good job😎
@@Chris_Garman agreed and it’s not the pure bronze brush that does the damage. The person who picked the brush metal purposely choose one that is much softer than barrel steel. The problem comes when you have a dirty brush. If you rake a piece of plastic over your car it will never scratch it, but if you put a small rock between the paint and plastic…
Yeah because car paint is the same hardness as a cold hammer forged 4150 steel barrel meant to take 55,000psi thousands of times. Dragging some carbon along with the brush isn’t going to do shit. Jesus man he used a drill and you still have these phobias.
I'm 84 years old and I've done a lot of shooting with a lot of different firearms which naturally led to a lot of cleaning. In my time I've worn out dozens of bronze brushes but never, ever did any bore damage using them. This video is spot on.
@@2pugman Its not that a brush damages barrels.What I have found is a brush is not needed if a barrel is cleaned properly. I have and have had as fine a rifles one could purchase and yes, years ago I used a brush when cleaning them. It never hurt one at all. I now don't use them and get excellent results. What I do know is a neglected barrel may benefit from using a brush .
Yup, there is no way a bronze brush is going to gouge or damage a high carbon steel barrel. The bronze brush is just too soft a metal to do anything tempered steel.
I had to do it on a rifle that I bought. It looked like it had never been cleaned, and I even cleaned it before I shot it, and it wasn't accurate at all because of the heavy pitting and rust in the riflings, so I used a drill and it took all the pitting and rust out. The rifle is a tac driver now. I also polish my turkey gun like this too for tighter patterns
When I turned 13, I received a .22rifle, A single-shot. I just turned 76 and that rifle still holds true to its aiming. Colt built the barrel prolly in the '50s (???). I as a young kid didn't know they sold cleaning kits! So my mom drove me to Alamosa Welding supply store. I bought a brass welding rod that would easily go down the barrel for cleaning. So for 63 years, I've cleaned that .22 with brass involvement. Even I knew way back then I knew it wouldn't scratch the bore! You reiterated my thoughts. BTW I have a 30-06 Springfield built in 1911 and cleaned the full bore with a drill and brass brush because it hasn't seen a damn thing in the bore for probably 75/or more years. The brass cleaned like Mr. Clean!!
22s are a bad example the pressures are so low and with modern non corrosive ammo you won't shoot one out in a lifetime unless you are shooting millions of rounds. iv owned 22 rifles that were over 100 years old and they still shot true and had gorgeous bores
I absolutely have no doubt in Your experience: Firearms can last for Decades, Generations or even Centuries... Some of my guns are also really old (not few are older as I am) and used and cleaned often, but: Did You frequently, (over decades?) clean Your barrels like he does in that Video? I don't. Not even once.
@@justacentrist4147 I think you miss the point. The question is whether brass brushes ruin bores or not. That question has nothing to do with bore erosion from shooting.
@@SH1974And that was the point. Even going to extremes with a bronze brush does no harm to the barrel. IMO, PERHAPS over DECADES, AGGRESSIVE cleaning techniques with BRONZE brushes MIGHT create some small amount of GENERAL wear, but not much. Certainly won't RUIN a bore. Stainless steel brushes might be another story.
I’m not a metallurgist, but how in the hell would it even be possible to hurt steel with bronze? If you could, imagine what a jacketed bullet would do! You’d have a smooth bore after 1 box of ammo!
same way you use a stone to sharp a steel knife and the wrong direction makes it worse. The point is not to "reshape it". Same as you don't harm "the barrel". Just sharpen/dull the outer edge that matters most. And no, it won't make any difference for some "hunting rifle" that doesn't need to be exactly precise in the first place. It however changes properties of benchrest grade rifles. Also related to video, what he is doing is not the danger. But you need to go all way down the barrel. And the rod bumping the barrel edge is the danger, not the "brush". Brush itself cleans the barrel. And as said the barrel inside doesn't really matter at all as long as it's well fabricated it's only purpose is to give rotation, doesn't affect precision, even if you did pretty serious harm. Only the outer edge does. And that's what you are trying to not alter by cleaning it from inside out. Consistency >>> technique. Do you think you would notice a difference with mag.glass between ordinary Mosin and Sniper grade Mosin? How do you think they differ? They all left the exatly same line. Once you find the answer to that, you may try to understand what happens if you do what the video did :) And most importantly when it matters and when it doesn't.
@@elenoe8 so you think that the gentle bumping of the soft metal rod can damage a hardened, probably chrome molly coated barrel? The same barrel that sees thousands of hot projectiles forced through at 2000+ fps? There are 2 ways to damage something. Use a harder object, or use a softer object that's moving really fast. Its why you can shoot through a cement block with a lead bullet. Try scratching the cement with the same lead bullet, it will work like chalk. Also if you want to sound smart, learn to write. I had to read your little essay up there multiple times, and the only thing i learned was that you write at 4th grade level.
Thank you! Just, thank you! I am so tired of hearing lame stories on TH-cam by individuals who clearly have no understanding of metallurgy or engineering spewing nonsense about damage from bronze brushes. It's refreshing to see someone refuting that nonsense in such a graphic way. As always, thank you for sharing. Steve
The internet is full of "keyboard experts" that are wrong 99.99% of the time! I find very little useful or correct info coming from most groups or "experts" on the internet. There's 1 guy that followers think is the guru of auto repair & this guy is wrong ALL the time.
Thank you for making this video! I’ve heard so many people on TH-cam say all these things will ruin your barrel. I always thought steel was harder than bronze…
What about the .010" oversize copper clad projectile being forced down the bore at 65KPSI? if a bronze brush ruins your barrel it would be shot out the first shot.
Imagine being built to withstand 10s of thousands of PSI, temperatures as hot as the surface of the sun and have a piece of copper travel through you at 2000-3000fps only to be defeated by a bronze brush and a drill.
A bronze brush will fuck up a barrels crown REAL fast if forced or even minor bend pressure applied. I'd rather have a pitted barrel than a damaged crown. Damaged crowns are the number 1 accuracy killer.
Your so right. Long story short I bought a CMP M1 and the bore was so fouled after 3 weeks of scrubbing the copper looked like silly putty on the lands, it shot patterns not groups at 50 yards. I was about to replace the barrel so I figured for one last try I took a lightly worn 35 caliber brass bore brush, wrapped it with patches loaded with JB Bore Polish, locked it into an electric drill and went to town. 10 MINUTES later I cleaned the bore and it looked like yours, almost polished, no gouges, roughness or grooves and the brush was still snug. I took that rifle out and all I'll say it is the most accurate Garand of the 4 I own. That brush never hurt anything.
JB Bore Polish is Magic! I coat my AR trigger contact points with is and dry fire it for hours (with my hand over the hammer). An old (and I mean old) gunsmith told me to do it. Over time it really was smoother. But it took a while. But what else are you going to do while watching old movies.
I did the same thing but used blue magic paste and a heavy duty rubber hose cut in half half an inch tall as a rubber bumper so my lower didn’t get damage , it was the best hack ever for a factory trigger.
The electric drill trick is great for removing heavy fouling, especially on old single shots that fired enough 22 shorts to make it impossible to chamber 22lr
@@justindunlap1235 I learned that the hard way recently....I was putting .22shorts in a Rascal for my kid. The ring of crud made .22lr completely impossible to chamber. Sooooo much Hoppes and a brass brush in a drill.....
One day I tested a gun. Maybe got 20 rounds off. Gun was short stroking. I put it away and forgot to clean it. 2 years later I found out I used corrosive primered ammo.
probably the new gun owners the past few years who don't understand basic metallurgy. why would people be using bronze brushes on their barrels for decades if it was capable of damaging it? these people can't ask themselves basic questions or use common sense about metal softness
In 1981, the Marine Corps issued me a M-16 A1 rifle with cleaning gear in the butt stock including a bore and chamber brush. You would think Eugene Stoner, the US Army and Marine Corps over the preceding 20 years would know if the brush would damage the barrel.
I know someone who wont even use a brushless boresnake for fear of stripping the chrome off. I gave up trying to explain how any bullet going down the barrel at 2500 FPS will do more damage.
"my barrel was made in Spain to be sold to France at the absolute very end of World War 1, and this bronze brush totally took the rifling off! Come to think of it, there might not have been any to begin with, but still!"
I'm happy you demonstrated this, I have heard this so many times. I think a lot if this stems back to the statement of "more guns are ruined by overcleaning than shooting" which I think is just an excuse for laziness, I can tell you one thing for sure is more barrels are ruined by neglect than proper cleaning.
I would tend to agree with the "overcleaning" statement. We are taught, when we first start shooting, that the white patch should come out of the barrel after you think it is clean, white. This of course is not true. So, given that statement, most people still believe that," the white must be white" after you clean, and will stroke the barrel until the white does in fact come out white. I very seldom have a completely white patch when I get though cleaning. Normally there is a light coat of black on the patch. And how many people clean from the muzzle without a muzzle guide? That being said, yes, I think people tend to over clean their barrels.
Yeah, as someone who works with metals all day (machinist) I knew this was always a bunch of BS superstition. A soft metal will not cut a harder metal, and most barrels are made of 4140 steel
I was a machinist and one of my jobs was to polish molds after they were machined. Even steel brushes will only polish the metal at best. I think these guys see engine builders using brushes with aluminum oxide coated brushes to home the cylinders and think that's what their brass brush is doing
I always thought the advice was because of the brush "bronze plating" the inside of the barrel the same way I lay the brass layer on my knife pommels. (I use a brass wire wheel brush and lightly heat a steel pommel - quick and dirty "gold" look for bits of hardware like pommels and crossguards)
@@jacktheaviator4938 have you ever worked as a machinist? I know you have not. Only Harder materials are used to cut softer materials Thats machinist 101. Seriously. Thats like the first thing taught in a trade school. They are not using plain water to cut stuff. It has sand etc in it.
It's "possible" but only under extreme forces which cannot be generated by hand or even a power drill. For instance, a tornado will blast straws through tree trunks, and a 12 ga shotgun will drive a wax dinner candle through a 1X6 pine board. But you aren't going to hurt a barrel with a bronze brush, and sometimes you need it to get out really bad fouling.
What amazes me even more that the lack of damage from the bronze brush is that you were doing all that from the muzzle end which is also something people will tell you is catastrophic and will instantly ruin a barrel. I have some old 3 piece rods of undetermined metal and I don’t own a bore guide and I’ve always been worried about doing damage so I usually just go gently and carefully but meanwhile in the back of my head I know that to damage a gun barrel it would probably take a much harder material than whatever steel the 3 piece rod may be made out of and a severe regiment of scrubbing the shit out of the barrel. This has assuaged my concerns.
Cleaning from the muzzle end is NOT harmful, as long as one doesn't ding the crown. The slightest imperfection in the crown will cause accuracy problems. That said, anything short of a steel cleaning rod will NOT damage the crown. I switched to carbon fiber cleaning rods as soon as they were on the market. 3 different size rods do everything from 17 caliber up. 1 for 17, 1 for 22--24 & 1 for 28--30 calibers. BTW, a DEWEY "PARKER HALE" STYLE (brass)JAG wrapped in a piece of paper towel & Kroil is all that is needed to get a barrel spotlessly clean. I haven't used any form of brush in over 30 years & my barrels are cleaner than anybody's that I have ever compared them to. I even tell people "get your barrel as clean as you think is possible" & then I will show you it's not really clean & the I will clean it properly for you.
The nice thing about nylon is gun solvent like Hoppes is savage on bronze bristles. It eats em right up making the life of the brush short, and you're always chasing green black shmoo out of your barrel thinking it's copper fouling. It's copper alright, just from the bronze alloy of your brush. I'll only use bronze with some kerosene for lube for that reason. But nylon...Just dunk that bitch in Hoppes and go to town.
I'll admit I was one of the noobs that believed the scaremongering around bronze brushes so I have used a nylon brush for a while but your video has given me confidence to go back to the bronze. I always felt it's be a sub optimal clean from a soft nylon brush. Thank you for the video 👍
An issue which is generally ignored is that of edibility. Anyone who has repaired a few dozen worn engines will have noticed that the crankshaft (usually forged steel) wears more than do the connecting rod and main bearings (which are a softer, lead-like alloy). The reason is that harder materials such as dirt particles will embed into the surface of the (softer)brass, bronze, main or rod bearing, and act like sandpaper against the crankshaft. The factor isn't that the steel crankshaft is softer, because it isn't softer. It is because the softer bearing carries dirt. The paper part of sandpaper is softer than the steel one can smooth by use of sandpaper. What is overlooked with brass, bronze, babbit and other alloy friction bearing materials is the effect of embedded dirt, polishing abrasives, etc. Does anyone remember the abrasive disks which were instantly popular for cleaning gasket surfaces about 25 years ago? Not long after they became popular, the vehicle and engine manufacturers forbade their use on any engine internals without follow-up cleaning procedures which weren't practical unless the engine was completely stripped down and chemically cleaned. Why? Embedded abrasive material from the disks. One can have a similar issue with brushes, which is why some service procedures for high precision components are so concerned to clean during the process, in order to remove any trapped dirt which might embed and create undesired wear.
Reminds me of when I was in an unfamiliar gun store/range, and was asking if they carried phosphor-bronze gun brushes, because I only saw nylon. The guy looked at me like I was crazy and told me I'd NEVER want to use a bronze brush on a gun, as it would ruin the finish. That's what I grew up using, and had been using for decades, and it never did anything before - I was only looking for a new one because I wore out my last one.
As a former machinist, bronze brush would never hurt your barrel. On the other hand some metals like beryllium copper, if they ever made a brush from that it could. Beryllium copper can be hardened pretty hard and it work hardens fast. Nice job on the video.
Glad I'm not the only one who's tested this. It had never made sense to me. If a bronze/brass patch harms a barrel. Brass, bronze, is used as bearing and bushing material for steel on steel surfaces everywhere, and a lot of it isn't hardened or as hard as barrel steel. Also glad I'm not the only one who has chucked up a brush in a drill, my muzzleloaders get abused because I am forgetful.
@Joe R Thanks for bringing me back to reality as I was loving this vid & the crazy comments lol!...But my heavy class 8 truck has a solid steel Hendrickson R suspension with the single center bronze bushing centered in each rear beam and...one of them has a plug in half of the grease pathway so I only get lubed on the bottom half of the bronze bushing. Arrrggghhhh!!!!! There's really no fix; only riding it out for a few more years. Cheers!
Thanks for the video! Been cleaning all my firearms for decades with a bronze brush. They are just as accurate as ever. Been seeing a lot of videos about soft nylon, etc… I’ll keep doing what I’m doing! Great video
Never heard such bollocks! I wonder if the steel wire twist which holds the bronze filaments is bent and this is the cause of the scratches. I've used countless bronze and nylon brushes and never had any scratching issues on many different rifles over the last 45 years. Someone's doing something drastically odd if they're badly scratching their bores! A really good and well presented counter argument to the problem! Kudos.
I just don't clean my guns very much especially the barrel. We don't encounter corrosive primers very much anymore and copper fills in the imperfections in the rifling cuts. I don't shoot straight lead ammo besides a 22lr and maybe a rare 38spl. The brush most certainly is not what fucks up people's barrels unless their barrels have terrible metallurgy
Thank you for this video. It was hugely informative and really puts me at ease. I use bronze brushes and I am a huge fan of bore snakes, primarily for my gas guns. As you pointed out, if you can't ruin the barrel running the brush through the crown end of the barrel on a drill, I don't think I have much to worry about with my boresnake or guided rod coming in from the chamber end. Again, thank you.
Thank you for clarifying the question about using bronze brushes that other videos made a case against them. I was almost convinced to not use bronze brushes. Although I was skeptical due to the fact that gun cleaning kits almost all include bronze brushes. Why would they even sell them if they were so damaging to barrels?
spot on i am new to reloading and there are so many "opinions" and taboos that are in the reloading universe and what i have learned as I move forward I have learned to just use my head and what is reasonable and one of them is the bronze brush nonsense love your channel because u call BS on alot of these so-called opinions
I started laughing so hard when I saw the drill/brush. Then you went all out nuts and I almost fell on the floor laughing. I said out loud "that's gonna be super polished now!" Great demo and perfect example. I hear this stuff all the time and that more barrels are destroyed by cleaning.....I have no idea how that happens unless someone has NO idea what they are doing with a steel chisel and hammer...
When I saw him go after the barrel with a drill I was thinking, "....that is genius, I'm going to start drill cleaning my bore from now on." But just ramming the brush back and forth does the job just fine. What have the other nay sayers been doing to clean their bores?
Thank you for this. Military Arms Channel did a video recently about how bronze brushes will damage barrels. He was saying he would never put anything but nylon in his rifles. It was pretty stupid. I tried to lay out the facts in the comments about how bronze is like 1/3 the hardness of steel, but I doubt anyone even read it. I’m pretty sure I even said that you could chuck a bronze brush in a drill and go to town with it and wear the brush to a nub without damaging the barrel.
Hardness determines if there will be immediate damage, clearly there isn't immediate damage. But let's not forget how water can carve stone. Overuse of a bronze brush WILL inevitably increase the wear on your barrel compared to cloth.
Is anyone in Military Arms Channel actually associated with the military at all? The cleaning kits we used in the Marines on our M16A4's literally had bronze brush heads and steel rods for cleaning... and those barrels were older than I was at the time.
Great video for sure. I worked for over 15 years at a gunsmith shop. What we found out in cleaning what messes up or destroys accuracy in a rifle is when you clean from the muzzle end only. Go through the chamber to clean. Why you may ask. Even though the brush is made of bronze and the tip that screws in the cleaning rod is most of the time a light or weak metal. It still contacts the crown numerous times and can cause dings in the crown. The crown on a barrel is the most important part of a firearm. Because it is the last thing a bullet touches as it leaves the barrel. I have been at the range many times and hear guys cursing like crazy saying, Dang thing shot good last year. I ask if they clean from the muzzle? Yes they do. Recrown and it goes back to shooting correctly.
I think it's bc the brass brush is so soft that it's easy inserting from the muzzle to hit the centre metal off the brush. I've done it myself. So this doesn't surprise me.
I totally agree! I had the aluminum and brass cleaning rods shave off small particles while pulling the brush through the mouth of the bore when not properly aligned with the bore. The particles came from the cleaning rods and not the barrels rifling. The rifling is very durable in properly heat treated barrels.
I scrub the bore of any of our firearms usually 2-4 times with a brush after first running a solvent patch...the crap coming out is powder, shavings, lead buildup and whatever...then an oiled patch followed by dry patches...we shoot a lot of crappy ammo, but always cleaning after range time keeps our barrels clean and shiny...now if we feel lazy we will run a bore snake, it seems about 80-90% as effective, and even that is better than nothing...what can I say, we in the clean guns religion camp...
The only time I have seen damage from a brass/bronze brush was when there was dirt and sand being brushed. The damage was not from the brush but sand grains hard enough to scratch the metal, this was also not a rifle barrel but a hydraulic fitting.
@@storyofmylife1000 You don't generally need to do that unless you've been in the sand and mud, and your barrel was exposed to it. Like when I go hunting and my rifle is on my 4-wheeler, it gets that special treatment because obviously there's dirt and grit in there. But if I'm just cleaning the gun powder off from taking it to a range and reapplying lubricant, it's probably just getting 3 or 4 strokes with a brush, a patch to clean it, and a patch with lube.
@@TheGribbleNator Oh yea, that's generally what I meant. If you've been in an area with a lot of gritty soil or sand I recommend you at least check the firearm over.
@@storyofmylife1000 I was really just being pedantic, probably not necessary. Most gun owners know. But just in case someone's new and reading this, save the patches for when your gun is really ridiculously dirty.
Good information! When I had my firearms, I had plastic, brass, and stainless loop brushes, but heard from lots of people NOT to use ANY in an air gun! Now I can rest at ease.
Thank you for your attention to this issue. I guess some of us missed ore/metal basics in class! On a more serious note I think what folks might be seeing is scratches/scrapes in their carbon buildup which can appear as barrel steel with the right bullet/powder combo. Again I’m glad you made this video. Informative for all. And I enjoyed it. Thanks again
Thank you for showing this! People who own firearms need to understand simple Metallurgy. Bronze brushes are way softer than your steel barrels and they WILL NEVER damage the barrel! I use them all the time and have NEVER had an issue!
Great video. It clearly proves those people who make those ignorant claims don't know anything about the hardness scale. I've used bronze brushes for cleaning all my firearms, including shotguns, and never saw any gouges or marks from doing it.
I am very impressed with how tidy your gun room is I congratulate you for being so disciplined not to say rather envious of all the space you have.!! I have been shooting for the best part of 50 years, I have never damaged any of my barrels, Shotgun or rifle in all that time and I have continually used a form of brush called the Payne Galwey Phosphor bronze brush whose filaments are very close together. Recommended to me by a gunmaker here in the UK.
Yes, i believed that discharge bullet is more than harm the groove cos speed and heat involve while bronze brush upon use cleaning it never damage coz no heat no pressure involed thats it
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! I get so sick of listening to folks say you can damage a barrel with a bronze brush. I've been cleaning my CHEAP barrels for the last 40 years the same way you just did, with a cordless and bronze brush and I really ream it good back and forth and I've had a bore scope for a long time now and I check the inside of the barrels all the time and like the one on your 6.5 Creedmoor, they're all shiny and smooth. 🤦♂️ smh. AWESOME VIDEO btw..👍👍
I'll be honest. When you started drilling I threw up in my mouth a little bit. However when you scoped it at the end I felt like a jackass for wasting so many patches on my guns. You made a believer out of me sir. I'm gonna clean my 6.5 with one of these shiney brushes that have sat in the bottom of my cleaning kit untouched since they were bought.
Honestly, I winced a little when you started up the drill. I know it cant hurt the bore but it still felt wrong. I think I'm going to try the drill technique on the pitted areas of my Yugo SKS since nothing else has worked even a little bit. That's a good looking bore, once you get past the damaged portion up front. Great video.
Big 45 frontier metal cleaner. It's like steel wool only meant for gun barrels- pull a little off and wrap around your bore brush. It does wonder to old surplus rifle that were rode hard and put up wet. I believe it's still only $6 shipped.
@@jaredmoss8170 Haven't gotten to it yet. I've put a lot of effort into that bore and quite a few bucks as well. I'm probably putting it off because it may not work and I don't know what else I can do for it. I really like the gun and hope I can get it shooting straight. It's a shame what happened to all those old Yugos.
Long time ago I bought a custom rifle from Accuracy Systems in Colorado. Their website still looks the same as it did back around 2010. Anyway the paperwork that comes with the rifle said that I would void my warranty for using a standard rod style cleaning brush. They stated that it's not the brush itself but the ROD that causes the damage because it will pick up small pieces of hard grime and it will become embedded in the rod, acting somewhat like a file. They state that if they saw evidence of using a cleaning rod if any rifle is sent back for repair, the warranty would be void. They required their customers only use pull-through bore snakes. I did that for a while but once I was done with the break in period I just started using a rod because I couldn't believe the stories about damage. Still shoots fine and I'm not worried about it.
Use a carbon fiber rod with a brass "jag" & a piece of paper towel. I haven't used a brush in a barrel in over 30 years. I will bet that I get a barrel cleaner than anybody on here. A custom gunsmith/barrel maker taught me this secret in the early 90s. Usually, IF the barrel is properly broken in & in good shape, fouling is not an issue.
I just mentioned this exact scenario won't even come close to damaging steel. This particular gunsmith got extremely offended and said well I'm referring to an heirloom Model 70, and I really just had to leave it alone. If anyone thinks you can damage stainless steel with thin bronze filament, well might wanna take a metallurgy class, because it's simply BS. I use a bronze brush impregnated with Iosso and doesn't even phase 'em. I've done it to Bartlein, MPA, Krieger, Benchmark, Ruger, Mossberg, and Remington. Hasn't so much as scratched the steel. It will remove very stubborn carbon though. It's just not possible to damage Chromoly or 416 SS unless as you stated, the steel is soft and wasn't made properly.
He was NOT a competent "gunsmith" if he made the statement you quoted! LOL Steel might be better today than in the past but not significantly enough to matter. Your "gunsmith" has probably never even seen "an heirloom Model 70". I'm 73, have been trading / collecting for over 50 years & I can count on 1 hand the number of pre-64 Model 70s that I have seen. The Kimber America rifles, made in NY, are modern day copies of the pre-64 Model 70. Even their 22LR has a claw extractor like it's big brothers.
Yes, I've heard this BS about a bronze brush damage hardened steel. Really? Then what are the copper plated bullets doing when you shoot them at 3000 fps with a dirty barrel?
@@dallaspeterson2024 they are. Very specifically as a matter of fact. Between 26-32 RCH so they have a good balance of tensile strength and toughness. Yes not as hard as some steels and metals but unless you take something with a higher rch then you won't hurt anything. 😉 obviously there are some outliers but what outlier would be inside of a gun barrel 😆
Don't know how many times over to 50 years of my shooting that I've been told I'm ruining my barrel by reversing the stroke or pulling it back over to crown never been seeing any damage here either don't know where this information comes from don't think I'd go as far as you did pretty funny LOL thanks
Lou Murdica cleans his barrel also with a cordless drill, only he uses nylon brushes. The reason he uses them is because the bronze let some bronze streek behind in the lands an fields that he afterwards needed to clean. He also let one of his barrel check at the factory, there was not any damage done to the barrel. I believe it’s in the interview with EC of
In general, such a situation could happen. I once bought a bronze (it was bronze color) brush and it was made of metal that was magnetized. Cheap сhinese brushes can be made of steel covered with bronze or brass
G'day mate, thank you so much for your comprehensive no BS video demonstration, i love the fact that you actually tried to damage that barrel with a drill powered dry bronze brush, i personally find it hilarious that some numbskulls actually believe that poor cleaning practices will do more damage than an extremely tight fitting Full Metal Jacket projectile will do as it's forced through the lands at ballistic speed in front of an explosive charge.
I’ve got a brand new nice Tipton vise, 2 new big bore Henry Golden Boys, it’s winter when I take great joy in cleaning my guns and gear………….THEN I saw these videos scaring me to death of looking at my barrels much less cleaning them!!! I missed 5 good quiet winter days wondering about it and WASTING MY PRECIOUS TIME! This video helped my spidey sense that it was mostly bullshit! Lol much appreciated
Metallurgy 101, softer metals will not harm harder metals such as steel. Even the steel used to hold the bronze bristle is as soft of a steel as you can get, it will twist tight without breaking, that's why they use it. Maybe the fools that are claiming this are heavily invested in nylon brush companies, or, are truly fools. Love this video!
I laughed at the claims that a brass brush would damage a hardened steel barrel, yet a copper and lead bullet being wedged through it at the speed of sound doesn’t harm it.
@@muninrob it was a long day. The point was force equals mass times acceleration. The brass and bronze bristles have virtually no mass each and certainly aren't accelerating much, so they impart very little force on the barrel. The copper bullet on the other hand has substantially more mass and goes from rest to 2,500 fps or so in 20". That's a lot of acceleration and hence force being applied to the barrel. I am willing to wager that you could run that bristle brush through the bore 100 times as fast as you can and not create as much heat as a single round. The heat is a representation of the friction loss in the barrel. To me that represents the wear capacity. So even if copper is softer, it wears the barrel more due to the forces acting on it and the amount of friction created. I hope that explains what I was getting at better.
@@The340king Ahh, you're looking at moment of deposition, and stress numbers, while I'm looking at deposit removal and simple rockwell hardness to get to the same place. I just always assumed the choice of metal for the bristles being harder than lead & copper, but softer than steel was the brush designers knowing what they were for and not being complete idiots. I am surprised there isn't more streaking from the brass & bronze wearing down against the steel - I was half expecting that brass brush on the drill to leave the barrel looking gold plated. (I've done that to a few rusty tire rims with brass wheel brushes and drills)
Cool idea using a cordless drill, I've never thought of doing that. In total agreement with you. If the material you're using is softer than the material you're cleaning with it, there's no way you CAN damage it! I've heard people even go so far as to say that you have run the bore brush in only ONE direction! If these brushes are so terrible why have people been successfully using them for so long? People can be really paranoid sometimes!
Well, you run it in one direction (breach to muzzle) until the brush is out of the muzzle, then pull it back through. Very often if you stop halfway and reverse direction the brush will jam in the barrel and you have to tap it out. That was the reason behind "one way". What was taught to me was one way ALL the way, then back ALL THE WAY.
Great video, I always found it hard to believe that a brass brush could hurt your bore.....especially when a bullets fly down the barrel at 2,500+ fps.
From my experience, it is the bronze brush that suffers not the barrel. I've cleaned barrels that had so bad pitting that they literally ate brushes. Speaking of those, sometimes it is better to avoid thorough cleaning as that may adversely affect the accuracy (or whats left of it). All that cladding with copper and soot fills those pits and kinda smooths out the barrel. Still, that is not the fault of the brush and more like the barrel is done anyway. Reversing the brush is a good way to break bristles. Starting from chamber end seems to help the brush to live a tad longer.
This is why I WELCOME copper in ALL of my barrels rent free! I'll NEVER use any kind of solvent that will remove copper fouling, nomatter the state of my barrel. I shoot so God damn much through many different caliber and platforms and this idea pretty much applies to almost all platforms, ESPECIALLY in cold hammer forged AR barrels. Whenever I take a new AR and/or gun I've replaced a barrel on I will almost always benchmark both the expected zero and round based off of my ruger AR 556 that's seen well over 8k rounds now. 55g M193 is known to be prettyh much anywhere from 2-3moa which is EXACTLY what I see with a barrel that's either brand new or has been over cleaned and had its copper fouling removed. With the cheap ruger I can take that exact round and shoot moa with it on a good day but normally a solid 1.5moa, "from a bench of course". I do use a bronze brush but only with a very quick pass of clenzoil clp and of course a reliable bore guide, not so much for the bore but for the crown of the barrel. I'd rather have a pitted barrel than a barrel even with the slightest bit of damaged crown. That's the true accuracy killer.
As long as the rifling grips & spins the bullet, accuracy isn't affected unless the crown is damaged or there is unequal pressure on the barrel from improper stock inletting / fit. I float my barrels with more gap than the "internet experts" recommend because wood expands & contracts with minor changes in humidity. This change can be seen with my guitars' tuning going flat, when humidity decreases or sharp when humidity increases, in spite of being in their cases, in my environmentally controlled house in the desert southwest!
what you did would have damaged the edges of the lands, it did nothing! I am 62 I am a welder and machinist. I have been building custom rifles as a hobbie since 1998 mostly wild- cats. I have shot center fire rifles since I was 14. I have never believed that a bronze brush could do any damage what so ever! Your demonstration was excellent because you did it bone dry and even better yet you did it at a critical area, The muzzle and crown! Perfect! Thank you!
Nice vid. I've always been skeptical about the belief that if you clean a rifle without a bore guide you're going to damage or destroy your gun, this puts that myth to rest.
Hey man, thanks for making this video. I never worried about using a bronze brush, then got into the precision world and have heard all sorts of crazy things. I mean, these guys won't even run a nylon brush past the crown. Who knows...lol. Anyhow thanks again!
According to the Mohs Scale of Hardness for Metals, bronze is a 3 and stainless steel is a 5.5. Using the Brinell scale, Bronze is 65 and stainless steel is 149. You are not harming the steel with a bronze brush because it simply doesn't have the ability to do so.
@@johnm5928 if you constantly rub a bronze cleaning brush against a the harder steel of a rifle barrel for 2 or 3 MILLION strokes of the brush, you MIGHT start to see some wear. If your barrel is worn out at 5,000 rounds and you ran your bronze brush through it 25 times for every shot fired, you're at just 500,000 passes through the barrel (once in and once out is 2 times through the barrel). NOBODY does that. More realistically, they shoot 20 rounds and use the bronze brush for 10 strokes (20 total passes of the brush). That means 5,000 total passes of the brush or no more than 0.5% of the passes you'd need to start showing wear on the barrel. Remember, that rock in that stream was polished 24/7 for hundreds of years to get that smooth. Even when people tumble rocks to polish them and are using water and grit to speed the process it takes a tumbler weeks of running all day, every day to polish them. Bottom line, the bronze brush is not going to ruin your barrel. You'll wear it out from shooting it LONG before you would see any damage caused by the brush.
@@gsh341 you said it "simply doesn't have the ability to do so" but that's not true. Yes it might take a while, but it IS wearing it down. I seriously doubt that it would degrade the performance to any measurable amount, but if you're gonna bring science into a gun fight, be prepared to be scienced back lol
I was skeptical of this too, because growing up, my Dad almost exclusively used a metal bore brush and then followed up with patches. Never had any issues after probably hundreds of cleanings.
To many children buying expensive toys and assuming things without a test. Thomas "Speedy" Gonzalez. "Everything is broke until I check it" Lou Murdica " One test is worth 1000 Expert Opinions"
I have a friend who is always searching the internet for mechanical advice! He has gotten very good at taking things apart but NOT fixing them. I was giving him sh!t about it & told him (me with 50+ years professional mechanic experience) that he is getting bad info. He said; "The general consensus is........". My response was; "The general consensus is NOT a proper diagnosis & it hasn't fixed any of your vehicles so far!" "Expert opinions" & "{general consensus" are worth exactly what they cost.......ZERO!!!!
I would assume it would be pretty hard to damage a material (SS) that is harder then the item being used to clean it (brass/aluminum rod). Good info here. Put that barrel back on a gun after doing the whole barrel with your brush and see how it shoots!
GREAT video! Thanks for posting. Now we need to know what kind of damage can be done with the nasty copper removing foam. I saw a video by GunBlue (retired cop who has been into serious shooting his entire life), and he said that the very thin coating of copper that gets deposited is the best thing ever for a barrel, and shouldn't be removed. I no longer use that foam.
There's a lot of fear mongering out there. Even in the gun community. Gunsmiths will tell you that if you hear metal on metal that you could be causing damage. They still use steel rods in the military and their guns shoot strait. Heat and pressure will wear your barrel, not a couple clicks from a rod or brush.
That's partially dependent on what your doing, for the average shooter your correct. If your chasing the ELR championship then you should probably keep the steel rod away from your crown in an abundance of caution. I do wonder how many of the people in youtube comment sections freaking out over bronze brushes have ever even fired a weapon let alone cleaned one. I've been using bronze since I was a kid, and those rifles are still shooting today without issue.
Military weapons get the barrels changed out because firing them on "Rock & Roll" creates excessive heat & barrel wear, especially barrel erosion where the bullet enters the barrel. My buddy said his Master Sargeant took his M16 & threw it away when he boarded the flight out of Vietnam to come home. He was a SeaBee & spent Saturdays & Sundays drinking beer & wearing out his M16 shooting at the empty cans he threw in the Mekong River!! Said his M16 probably had more rounds through it than any true combat rifles in the area! LOL
@@mushroomcloud1 Humbly, I'll say that frequent cleaning is completely unnecessary. But yes, the barrel is the harder of surfaces so its not a 1:1 ratio of each surfaces equally wearing the other surface. But softer surfaces wear harder surfaces all the time, everyday, 24/7 especially when there's a media between them that can act as an abrasive compound. A blade eventually wears a sharpening stone. Hairs will eventually dull a blade, a buffing cloth can polish a paint, so on and so forth. I'll add that John Krieger, imo the best barrel maker on the planet advises sharp care be taken, and not to over clean a barrel, great care at the crown due to threat of wear. It doesn't take much wear. I'm far from an authority myself but I've been around long range rifles all my life, father was a builder and competitor for 30 yrs. Shot ranges from 100yd - 1000yd. Some 100yd groups verified in competition at .040" At that level, causing a barrel machined surface discrepancy of .0001" is a mile in the wrong direction. Could get 4000 accurate rounds from a factory Remington .308 varmint barrel, still shooting 1/2" at that round count, up from .200" when new. Those barrels never saw a bronze brush. Only patch cleaning.
@@bradgriffith4231 AR barrels are made out of both 4140 and 4150 steel. 4150 has a higher tensile strength. 4140 is more ductile. Both are much harder than a copper brush. Thank you for the comment.
The company I work for manufactures diamond and CBN bore hones for barrel manufacturing, from .22 to 30mm. I can agree, there is no common use of a bronze or brass brush that will destroy a barrel. I appreciate videos that call out the false claims. Nic job!
He is correct. The 416R stainless barrel as shown in this video (and the majority of precision rifle barrels) are 28-32Rc. That is hard. No way a soft bronze brush will damage the ID of a barrel.
I tried to explain, to a "know-it-all" ex-friend, that a barrel vibrates, much like a guitar string, & it must vibrate at the exact same frewquency every time the trigger is pulled for the best accuracy. He "educated" me, telling me I was wrong & that the LEAD bullet actually swells the STEEL barrel as it goes down the tube & then, (I guess) the barrel snaps back to original size after the bullet exits! He's an ex-friend because I can't stand idiots!!
I believe I started hearing this in the 90s!? Do a search of the "Brinell Scale" then compare "bronze" & "steel using that scale. You'll see what I'm getting at. I love the physical comedy in this video. - Godspeed
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I was a machinist in my younger years and there’s no way anybody can convince me that a brass or bronze bore brush will harm a gun barrel. The forces generated when a bullet is shot through a barrel are much greater than any human can generate while cleaning a barrel. I think your video proved that as well. Good job😎
It's about the hardness of the materials not the force.
@@Chris_Garman then that has more issues then
Exactly what I thought the first time I heard that claim
@@Chris_Garman agreed and it’s not the pure bronze brush that does the damage. The person who picked the brush metal purposely choose one that is much softer than barrel steel. The problem comes when you have a dirty brush.
If you rake a piece of plastic over your car it will never scratch it, but if you put a small rock between the paint and plastic…
Yeah because car paint is the same hardness as a cold hammer forged 4150 steel barrel meant to take 55,000psi thousands of times. Dragging some carbon along with the brush isn’t going to do shit. Jesus man he used a drill and you still have these phobias.
I'm 84 years old and I've done a lot of shooting with a lot of different firearms which naturally led to a lot of cleaning. In my time I've worn out dozens of bronze brushes but never, ever did any bore damage using them. This video is spot on.
I'm 82 and also never damage a bore with a bronze brush.
@@2pugman Its not that a brush damages barrels.What I have found is a brush is not needed if a barrel is cleaned properly. I have and have had as fine a rifles one could purchase and yes, years ago I used a brush when cleaning them. It never hurt one at all. I now don't use them and get excellent results. What I do know is a neglected barrel may benefit from using a brush .
Yeah, it is a soft metal vs a hard metal. Just stay away from threads and such.
Anything a bronze or brass brush will do a bullet moving at 1500f/s will do better.
61 and the same thing. Bottom line, it is not possible due to the surface hardness of the barrel vs the bronze brush. Physically impossible.
A little research on Mohs hardness scale would help people understand what can scratch what. Steel can't scratch diamonds, bronze can't scratch steel.
I was thinking isn’t bronze soft than steel?
@@CajunReaper95 - Yeah, that's why we don't make our tanks out of it.
We too did a video on the topic, our finding was the same as yours! Great video!
Yup, there is no way a bronze brush is going to gouge or damage a high carbon steel barrel. The bronze brush is just too soft a metal to do anything tempered steel.
I’m thinking of pushing a solid copper slug down the barrel at 65,000 psi… do you think that will hurt things?
@@michaelgarrow3239 It might leave a little metal behind. You might have to clean it afterwards.
This had me dying 🤣 "oh no reverse" lmfao. Appreciate somebody putting this straight.
And NO ONE would ever use a power drill to clean their barrel !!! You've proved a GREAT POINT. Thanks !!
now that i see i done, it is a good idea....
That's the only way to clean. Power drill brush and shit ton of clp.. all of mine look mirror polished.
Lmao I have ABSOLUTELY used a drill 😂 shit goes like butter ❤
I had to do it on a rifle that I bought. It looked like it had never been cleaned, and I even cleaned it before I shot it, and it wasn't accurate at all because of the heavy pitting and rust in the riflings, so I used a drill and it took all the pitting and rust out. The rifle is a tac driver now. I also polish my turkey gun like this too for tighter patterns
I mean... being able to see yourself in the bore... Seems like the best idea ever...
When I turned 13, I received a .22rifle, A single-shot. I just turned 76 and that rifle still holds true to its aiming.
Colt built the barrel prolly in the '50s (???). I as a young kid didn't know they sold cleaning kits! So my mom drove me to Alamosa Welding supply store.
I bought a brass welding rod that would easily go down the barrel for cleaning. So for 63 years, I've cleaned that .22 with brass involvement. Even I knew way back then I knew it wouldn't scratch the bore!
You reiterated my thoughts.
BTW I have a 30-06 Springfield built in 1911 and cleaned the full bore with a drill and brass brush because it hasn't seen a damn thing in the bore for probably 75/or more years. The brass cleaned like Mr. Clean!!
22s are a bad example the pressures are so low and with modern non corrosive ammo you won't shoot one out in a lifetime unless you are shooting millions of rounds. iv owned 22 rifles that were over 100 years old and they still shot true and had gorgeous bores
I absolutely have no doubt in Your experience: Firearms can last for Decades, Generations or even Centuries... Some of my guns are also really old (not few are older as I am) and used and cleaned often, but:
Did You frequently, (over decades?) clean Your barrels like he does in that Video? I don't. Not even once.
@@justacentrist4147 I think you miss the point. The question is whether brass brushes ruin bores or not. That question has nothing to do with bore erosion from shooting.
@@SH1974And that was the point. Even going to extremes with a bronze brush does no harm to the barrel.
IMO, PERHAPS over DECADES, AGGRESSIVE cleaning techniques with BRONZE brushes MIGHT create some small amount of GENERAL wear, but not much. Certainly won't RUIN a bore.
Stainless steel brushes might be another story.
I’m not a metallurgist, but how in the hell would it even be possible to hurt steel with bronze? If you could, imagine what a jacketed bullet would do! You’d have a smooth bore after 1 box of ammo!
same way you use a stone to sharp a steel knife and the wrong direction makes it worse. The point is not to "reshape it". Same as you don't harm "the barrel". Just sharpen/dull the outer edge that matters most. And no, it won't make any difference for some "hunting rifle" that doesn't need to be exactly precise in the first place. It however changes properties of benchrest grade rifles.
Also related to video, what he is doing is not the danger. But you need to go all way down the barrel. And the rod bumping the barrel edge is the danger, not the "brush". Brush itself cleans the barrel. And as said the barrel inside doesn't really matter at all as long as it's well fabricated it's only purpose is to give rotation, doesn't affect precision, even if you did pretty serious harm. Only the outer edge does. And that's what you are trying to not alter by cleaning it from inside out. Consistency >>> technique.
Do you think you would notice a difference with mag.glass between ordinary Mosin and Sniper grade Mosin? How do you think they differ? They all left the exatly same line. Once you find the answer to that, you may try to understand what happens if you do what the video did :) And most importantly when it matters and when it doesn't.
@@elenoe8 I don’t think you understand how abrasives work..
@@elenoe8 so you think that the gentle bumping of the soft metal rod can damage a hardened, probably chrome molly coated barrel? The same barrel that sees thousands of hot projectiles forced through at 2000+ fps? There are 2 ways to damage something. Use a harder object, or use a softer object that's moving really fast. Its why you can shoot through a cement block with a lead bullet. Try scratching the cement with the same lead bullet, it will work like chalk. Also if you want to sound smart, learn to write. I had to read your little essay up there multiple times, and the only thing i learned was that you write at 4th grade level.
@@elenoe8 my cleaning rod is carbon fiber so I'm good!
@@elenoe8 Last paragraph is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen on the internet.
Thank you! Just, thank you! I am so tired of hearing lame stories on TH-cam by individuals who clearly have no understanding of metallurgy or engineering spewing nonsense about damage from bronze brushes. It's refreshing to see someone refuting that nonsense in such a graphic way.
As always, thank you for sharing.
Steve
The internet is full of "keyboard experts" that are wrong 99.99% of the time! I find very little useful or correct info coming from most groups or "experts" on the internet. There's 1 guy that followers think is the guru of auto repair & this guy is wrong ALL the time.
Thank you for making this video! I’ve heard so many people on TH-cam say all these things will ruin your barrel. I always thought steel was harder than bronze…
Not to mention the 1000s of rifles still around from decades ago when nylon wasn't used,hmmm.
Exactly so many people talk about it but how can that be if it's not even equally hard
What about the .010" oversize copper clad projectile being forced down the bore at 65KPSI? if a bronze brush ruins your barrel it would be shot out the first shot.
@@kcstott lmao exactly. common sense aint so common anymore.
@@kcstott Bingo!
Imagine being built to withstand 10s of thousands of PSI, temperatures as hot as the surface of the sun and have a piece of copper travel through you at 2000-3000fps only to be defeated by a bronze brush and a drill.
A bronze brush will fuck up a barrels crown REAL fast if forced or even minor bend pressure applied. I'd rather have a pitted barrel than a damaged crown. Damaged crowns are the number 1 accuracy killer.
@@nvlaser9084 the surface of the sun is not millions of degrees, go back to school.
@@TerminalM193 A bronze brush can not hurt the crown of a barrel.
@@nvlaser9084 Wow I didn't know you have extra chromosomes, this changes everything.
Actually defeated by a casual bore cleaning with a bronze brush is the topic
I got a good chuckle from your attempt to damage that barrel. OH NO! LMAO!
Your so right. Long story short I bought a CMP M1 and the bore was so fouled after 3 weeks of scrubbing the copper looked like silly putty on the lands, it shot patterns not groups at 50 yards. I was about to replace the barrel so I figured for one last try I took a lightly worn 35 caliber brass bore brush, wrapped it with patches loaded with JB Bore Polish, locked it into an electric drill and went to town. 10 MINUTES later I cleaned the bore and it looked like yours, almost polished, no gouges, roughness or grooves and the brush was still snug. I took that rifle out and all I'll say it is the most accurate Garand of the 4 I own. That brush never hurt anything.
JB Bore Polish is Magic! I coat my AR trigger contact points with is and dry fire it for hours (with my hand over the hammer). An old (and I mean old) gunsmith told me to do it. Over time it really was smoother. But it took a while. But what else are you going to do while watching old movies.
I did the same thing but used blue magic paste and a heavy duty rubber hose cut in half half an inch tall as a rubber bumper so my lower didn’t get damage , it was the best hack ever for a factory trigger.
Works well on chambers too 😊.
The electric drill trick is great for removing heavy fouling, especially on old single shots that fired enough 22 shorts to make it impossible to chamber 22lr
@@justindunlap1235 I learned that the hard way recently....I was putting .22shorts in a Rascal for my kid. The ring of crud made .22lr completely impossible to chamber. Sooooo much Hoppes and a brass brush in a drill.....
This is my experience also. There sure are ways you can damage a barrel but not with normal cleaning implements and techniques
Well put
One day I tested a gun. Maybe got 20 rounds off. Gun was short stroking. I put it away and forgot to clean it. 2 years later I found out I used corrosive primered ammo.
@@wannabecarguy RIP
probably the new gun owners the past few years who don't understand basic metallurgy. why would people be using bronze brushes on their barrels for decades if it was capable of damaging it? these people can't ask themselves basic questions or use common sense about metal softness
I more worried about the scale on that throat
In 1981, the Marine Corps issued me a M-16 A1 rifle with cleaning gear in the butt stock including a bore and chamber brush. You would think Eugene Stoner, the US Army and Marine Corps over the preceding 20 years would know if the brush would damage the barrel.
I tried to tell people years ago bronze will NOT scratch steel unless you have a pot metal barrel haha! Thanks for proving my point!
I know someone who wont even use a brushless boresnake for fear of stripping the chrome off.
I gave up trying to explain how any bullet going down the barrel at 2500 FPS will do more damage.
"my barrel was made in Spain to be sold to France at the absolute very end of World War 1, and this bronze brush totally took the rifling off! Come to think of it, there might not have been any to begin with, but still!"
@@bilbo_gamers6417 lol.....
I'm happy you demonstrated this, I have heard this so many times. I think a lot if this stems back to the statement of "more guns are ruined by overcleaning than shooting" which I think is just an excuse for laziness, I can tell you one thing for sure is more barrels are ruined by neglect than proper cleaning.
I would tend to agree with the "overcleaning" statement. We are taught, when we first start shooting, that the white patch should come out of the barrel after you think it is clean, white. This of course is not true. So, given that statement, most people still believe that," the white must be white" after you clean, and will stroke the barrel until the white does in fact come out white. I very seldom have a completely white patch when I get though cleaning. Normally there is a light coat of black on the patch.
And how many people clean from the muzzle without a muzzle guide?
That being said, yes, I think people tend to over clean their barrels.
If you can ruin a barrel with a bronze brush your barrel is a cheap piece of shit. lol
Yeah, as someone who works with metals all day (machinist) I knew this was always a bunch of BS superstition. A soft metal will not cut a harder metal, and most barrels are made of 4140 steel
I was a machinist and one of my jobs was to polish molds after they were machined. Even steel brushes will only polish the metal at best. I think these guys see engine builders using brushes with aluminum oxide coated brushes to home the cylinders and think that's what their brass brush is doing
I always thought the advice was because of the brush "bronze plating" the inside of the barrel the same way I lay the brass layer on my knife pommels. (I use a brass wire wheel brush and lightly heat a steel pommel - quick and dirty "gold" look for bits of hardware like pommels and crossguards)
Imagine explaining Rockwell Hardness to some of these "experts".
Actually, both materials, the harder and the softer, both wear when rubbed together. Even air can erode steel if you give it enough time.
@@jacktheaviator4938 have you ever worked as a machinist? I know you have not. Only Harder materials are used to cut softer materials Thats machinist 101. Seriously. Thats like the first thing taught in a trade school. They are not using plain water to cut stuff. It has sand etc in it.
Thanks for clearing this up. I could never understand how a soft material can significantly damage a harder material like a steel barrel.
It's "possible" but only under extreme forces which cannot be generated by hand or even a power drill. For instance, a tornado will blast straws through tree trunks, and a 12 ga shotgun will drive a wax dinner candle through a 1X6 pine board. But you aren't going to hurt a barrel with a bronze brush, and sometimes you need it to get out really bad fouling.
What amazes me even more that the lack of damage from the bronze brush is that you were doing all that from the muzzle end which is also something people will tell you is catastrophic and will instantly ruin a barrel. I have some old 3 piece rods of undetermined metal and I don’t own a bore guide and I’ve always been worried about doing damage so I usually just go gently and carefully but meanwhile in the back of my head I know that to damage a gun barrel it would probably take a much harder material than whatever steel the 3 piece rod may be made out of and a severe regiment of scrubbing the shit out of the barrel. This has assuaged my concerns.
Cleaning from the muzzle end is NOT harmful, as long as one doesn't ding the crown. The slightest imperfection in the crown will cause accuracy problems. That said, anything short of a steel cleaning rod will NOT damage the crown. I switched to carbon fiber cleaning rods as soon as they were on the market. 3 different size rods do everything from 17 caliber up. 1 for 17, 1 for 22--24 & 1 for 28--30 calibers. BTW, a DEWEY
"PARKER HALE" STYLE (brass)JAG wrapped in a piece of paper towel & Kroil is all that is needed to get a barrel spotlessly clean. I haven't used any form of brush in over 30 years & my barrels are cleaner than anybody's that I have ever compared them to. I even tell people "get your barrel as clean as you think is possible" & then I will show you it's not really clean & the I will clean it properly for you.
Well, there’s always a “special” person in every group. Thanks for the laughs. Much needed today!
Lmao, you just ruined all the expensive nylon brush manufacturers' day.
The nice thing about nylon is gun solvent like Hoppes is savage on bronze bristles. It eats em right up making the life of the brush short, and you're always chasing green black shmoo out of your barrel thinking it's copper fouling. It's copper alright, just from the bronze alloy of your brush. I'll only use bronze with some kerosene for lube for that reason. But nylon...Just dunk that bitch in Hoppes and go to town.
I wouldn't label any of the brushes nylon or otherwise expensive, cleaning supplies are cheap.
Great video have been cleaning rifles for 50 years with bronze brushes. Never had any issue, barrels never rust or show any imperfections. Thanks!
I'll admit I was one of the noobs that believed the scaremongering around bronze brushes so I have used a nylon brush for a while but your video has given me confidence to go back to the bronze. I always felt it's be a sub optimal clean from a soft nylon brush. Thank you for the video 👍
Did you ever hear the old saying, "Bronze on steel wears ideal"? It's true!
The bronze brush is wrapped with a twisted piece of steel wire... I bet the guy the ruined his barrel had a brush that was slightly bent!
Thank you! They taught us in high school metal shop 50 years ago, that bronze is softer than any barrel steel. I don't think that has changed!
Blasphemy!!! It has changed, just like the climate!!!
I dunno, science has been changing a lot lately.
Back when there was only 2 genders
@@MattGluntVideos yeh bruh there’s 80 genders and male and female dont exist anymore. Men also have babies now
An issue which is generally ignored is that of edibility. Anyone who has repaired a few dozen worn engines will have noticed that the crankshaft (usually forged steel) wears more than do the connecting rod and main bearings (which are a softer, lead-like alloy).
The reason is that harder materials such as dirt particles will embed into the surface of the (softer)brass, bronze, main or rod bearing, and act like sandpaper against the crankshaft. The factor isn't that the steel crankshaft is softer, because it isn't softer. It is because the softer bearing carries dirt. The paper part of sandpaper is softer than the steel one can smooth by use of sandpaper. What is overlooked with brass, bronze, babbit and other alloy friction bearing materials is the effect of embedded dirt, polishing abrasives, etc.
Does anyone remember the abrasive disks which were instantly popular for cleaning gasket surfaces about 25 years ago? Not long after they became popular, the vehicle and engine manufacturers forbade their use on any engine internals without follow-up cleaning procedures which weren't practical unless the engine was completely stripped down and chemically cleaned. Why? Embedded abrasive material from the disks.
One can have a similar issue with brushes, which is why some service procedures for high precision components are so concerned to clean during the process, in order to remove any trapped dirt which might embed and create undesired wear.
Reminds me of when I was in an unfamiliar gun store/range, and was asking if they carried phosphor-bronze gun brushes, because I only saw nylon. The guy looked at me like I was crazy and told me I'd NEVER want to use a bronze brush on a gun, as it would ruin the finish. That's what I grew up using, and had been using for decades, and it never did anything before - I was only looking for a new one because I wore out my last one.
Can't scratch a dinner plate with a butter knife, can't damage a rifle barrel with a bronze brush.
As a former machinist, bronze brush would never hurt your barrel.
On the other hand some metals like beryllium copper, if they ever made a brush from that it could. Beryllium copper can be hardened pretty hard and it work hardens fast.
Nice job on the video.
It's also poisonous!
@@HDSME It's only dangerous if you inhale particles of it.
@@beetroot7486 most metals and even water are dangerous if inhaled 😂
@@jeffrbake Not anywhere to the same extent. It's funny to dismiss it until you work with these materials.
@@akaroth7542 are you saying it's more dangerous than I think? My understating is inhaling heavy metals is very bad for you.
Glad I'm not the only one who's tested this. It had never made sense to me. If a bronze/brass patch harms a barrel. Brass, bronze, is used as bearing and bushing material for steel on steel surfaces everywhere, and a lot of it isn't hardened or as hard as barrel steel.
Also glad I'm not the only one who has chucked up a brush in a drill, my muzzleloaders get abused because I am forgetful.
@Joe R Thanks for bringing me back to reality as I was loving this vid & the crazy comments lol!...But my heavy class 8 truck has a solid steel Hendrickson R suspension with the single center bronze bushing centered in each rear beam and...one of them has a plug in half of the grease pathway so I only get lubed on the bottom half of the bronze bushing.
Arrrggghhhh!!!!!
There's really no fix; only riding it out for a few more years.
Cheers!
Thanks for the video! Been cleaning all my firearms for decades with a bronze brush. They are just as accurate as ever. Been seeing a lot of videos about soft nylon, etc… I’ll keep doing what I’m doing! Great video
You confirmed my thoughts. There's quite a lot of old wives tales in shooting. This was a big one.
Never heard such bollocks! I wonder if the steel wire twist which holds the bronze filaments is bent and this is the cause of the scratches. I've used countless bronze and nylon brushes and never had any scratching issues on many different rifles over the last 45 years. Someone's doing something drastically odd if they're badly scratching their bores!
A really good and well presented counter argument to the problem! Kudos.
I think the steel or what ever metal they use to hold the bronz Bristol’s cheap and softer metal.Barrels are really hard.
Nah. If steel case ammo can’t hurt a chamber no way the steel bendy wire is hurting the bore.
I'd never heard of it until this video.
I just don't clean my guns very much especially the barrel. We don't encounter corrosive primers very much anymore and copper fills in the imperfections in the rifling cuts. I don't shoot straight lead ammo besides a 22lr and maybe a rare 38spl. The brush most certainly is not what fucks up people's barrels unless their barrels have terrible metallurgy
Thank you for this video. It was hugely informative and really puts me at ease. I use bronze brushes and I am a huge fan of bore snakes, primarily for my gas guns. As you pointed out, if you can't ruin the barrel running the brush through the crown end of the barrel on a drill, I don't think I have much to worry about with my boresnake or guided rod coming in from the chamber end. Again, thank you.
Thank you for clarifying the question about using bronze brushes that other videos made a case against them. I was almost convinced to not use bronze brushes. Although I was skeptical due to the fact that gun cleaning kits almost all include bronze brushes. Why would they even sell them if they were so damaging to barrels?
spot on i am new to reloading and there are so many "opinions" and taboos that are in the reloading universe and what i have learned as I move forward I have learned to just use my head and what is reasonable and one of them is the bronze brush nonsense love your channel because u call BS on alot of these so-called opinions
I started laughing so hard when I saw the drill/brush. Then you went all out nuts and I almost fell on the floor laughing. I said out loud "that's gonna be super polished now!"
Great demo and perfect example.
I hear this stuff all the time and that more barrels are destroyed by cleaning.....I have no idea how that happens unless someone has NO idea what they are doing with a steel chisel and hammer...
When I saw him go after the barrel with a drill I was thinking, "....that is genius, I'm going to start drill cleaning my bore from now on." But just ramming the brush back and forth does the job just fine. What have the other nay sayers been doing to clean their bores?
🤔🤣🤣SAME HERE👍👍
That's the crap that people who do not clean their tools say.
Hahahaha yes major miss use
You can ruin crown. Steel Rods@ snake's with improper use.
Thank you for this. Military Arms Channel did a video recently about how bronze brushes will damage barrels. He was saying he would never put anything but nylon in his rifles. It was pretty stupid. I tried to lay out the facts in the comments about how bronze is like 1/3 the hardness of steel, but I doubt anyone even read it. I’m pretty sure I even said that you could chuck a bronze brush in a drill and go to town with it and wear the brush to a nub without damaging the barrel.
I stopped watching MAC a long long time ago.
Boils down to hardnesses.
Hardness determines if there will be immediate damage, clearly there isn't immediate damage. But let's not forget how water can carve stone. Overuse of a bronze brush WILL inevitably increase the wear on your barrel compared to cloth.
Is anyone in Military Arms Channel actually associated with the military at all? The cleaning kits we used in the Marines on our M16A4's literally had bronze brush heads and steel rods for cleaning... and those barrels were older than I was at the time.
@@TheTeehee11111 :Let's not forget that it take years (Centuries) for water to "carve stone". Your argument still doesn't "hold water".
Great video for sure. I worked for over 15 years at a gunsmith shop. What we found out in cleaning what messes up or destroys accuracy in a rifle is when you clean from the muzzle end only. Go through the chamber to clean. Why you may ask. Even though the brush is made of bronze and the tip that screws in the cleaning rod is most of the time a light or weak metal. It still contacts the crown numerous times and can cause dings in the crown. The crown on a barrel is the most important part of a firearm. Because it is the last thing a bullet touches as it leaves the barrel.
I have been at the range many times and hear guys cursing like crazy saying, Dang thing shot good last year. I ask if they clean from the muzzle? Yes they do. Recrown and it goes back to shooting correctly.
I think it's bc the brass brush is so soft that it's easy inserting from the muzzle to hit the centre metal off the brush. I've done it myself. So this doesn't surprise me.
I totally agree! I had the aluminum and brass cleaning rods shave off small particles while pulling the brush through the mouth of the bore when not properly aligned with the bore. The particles came from the cleaning rods and not the barrels rifling. The rifling is very durable in properly heat treated barrels.
I scrub the bore of any of our firearms usually 2-4 times with a brush after first running a solvent patch...the crap coming out is powder, shavings, lead buildup and whatever...then an oiled patch followed by dry patches...we shoot a lot of crappy ammo, but always cleaning after range time keeps our barrels clean and shiny...now if we feel lazy we will run a bore snake, it seems about 80-90% as effective, and even that is better than nothing...what can I say, we in the clean guns religion camp...
The only time I have seen damage from a brass/bronze brush was when there was dirt and sand being brushed. The damage was not from the brush but sand grains hard enough to scratch the metal, this was also not a rifle barrel but a hydraulic fitting.
That's why I tell people to run a few patches with a bore cleaner on them first. Get the grit out before polishing.
@@storyofmylife1000 You don't generally need to do that unless you've been in the sand and mud, and your barrel was exposed to it. Like when I go hunting and my rifle is on my 4-wheeler, it gets that special treatment because obviously there's dirt and grit in there. But if I'm just cleaning the gun powder off from taking it to a range and reapplying lubricant, it's probably just getting 3 or 4 strokes with a brush, a patch to clean it, and a patch with lube.
@@TheGribbleNator Oh yea, that's generally what I meant. If you've been in an area with a lot of gritty soil or sand I recommend you at least check the firearm over.
@@storyofmylife1000 I was really just being pedantic, probably not necessary. Most gun owners know. But just in case someone's new and reading this, save the patches for when your gun is really ridiculously dirty.
Good information! When I had my firearms, I had plastic, brass, and stainless loop brushes, but heard from lots of people NOT to use ANY in an air gun!
Now I can rest at ease.
The SS loop brushes could harm the barrel because SS is harder than 4140 alloy steel. The were a bad idea from about 35 years ago.
Thank you for your attention to this issue. I guess some of us missed ore/metal basics in class! On a more serious note I think what folks might be seeing is scratches/scrapes in their carbon buildup which can appear as barrel steel with the right bullet/powder combo. Again I’m glad you made this video. Informative for all. And I enjoyed it. Thanks again
Thank you for showing this! People who own firearms need to understand simple Metallurgy. Bronze brushes are way softer than your steel barrels and they WILL NEVER damage the barrel! I use them all the time and have NEVER had an issue!
Great video. It clearly proves those people who make those ignorant claims don't know anything about the hardness scale. I've used bronze brushes for cleaning all my firearms, including shotguns, and never saw any gouges or marks from doing it.
I am very impressed with how tidy your gun room is I congratulate you for being so disciplined not to say rather envious of all the space you have.!!
I have been shooting for the best part of 50 years, I have never damaged any of my barrels,
Shotgun or rifle in all that time and I have continually used a form of brush called the Payne Galwey Phosphor bronze brush whose filaments are very close together. Recommended to me by a gunmaker here in the UK.
I think a bullet traveling at 3000 fps down the barrel will do more harm than a bronze brush ever would.
Yes, i believed that discharge bullet is more than harm the groove cos speed and heat involve while bronze brush upon use cleaning it never damage coz no heat no pressure involed thats it
You bet your bones it will; rifles which operate at 4000 fps go through barrels like underwear.
To see barreling in such detail. Very nice explanation and clarification. It all makes sense, good job.
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! I get so sick of listening to folks say you can damage a barrel with a bronze brush. I've been cleaning my CHEAP barrels for the last 40 years the same way you just did, with a cordless and bronze brush and I really ream it good back and forth and I've had a bore scope for a long time now and I check the inside of the barrels all the time and like the one on your 6.5 Creedmoor, they're all shiny and smooth. 🤦♂️ smh.
AWESOME VIDEO btw..👍👍
You had a cordless drill 40 years ago, must have been the first one. 😁
@@williepelzer384 Willie, you finally made it up out of mommy and daddy's basement 👏 well congratulations hon!
DANG.... Maybe I should do that to my RPR barrel, that thing is shinny like a 1950's Buick chrome bumper... I like that...
The fact is that if a bronze brush damages your barrel, then you have a sub par barrel.
I'll be honest. When you started drilling I threw up in my mouth a little bit. However when you scoped it at the end I felt like a jackass for wasting so many patches on my guns. You made a believer out of me sir. I'm gonna clean my 6.5 with one of these shiney brushes that have sat in the bottom of my cleaning kit untouched since they were bought.
Awesome information. Thanks for taking the time to share your testing and results. I really appreciate it!
Scared the life out of me !!! Thought I was wrong to use a bronze brush . I have always used one on my Rimfire and centrefire … good video buddy 👍👍
Honestly, I winced a little when you started up the drill. I know it cant hurt the bore but it still felt wrong. I think I'm going to try the drill technique on the pitted areas of my Yugo SKS since nothing else has worked even a little bit. That's a good looking bore, once you get past the damaged portion up front. Great video.
Big 45 frontier metal cleaner. It's like steel wool only meant for gun barrels- pull a little off and wrap around your bore brush. It does wonder to old surplus rifle that were rode hard and put up wet. I believe it's still only $6 shipped.
@@mikhailkalashnikov4599 Thanks for the tip. I'll have to check that out.
Did it work well? I was thinking the EXACT thing for my Yugo SKS, ha.
@@jaredmoss8170 Haven't gotten to it yet. I've put a lot of effort into that bore and quite a few bucks as well. I'm probably putting it off because it may not work and I don't know what else I can do for it. I really like the gun and hope I can get it shooting straight. It's a shame what happened to all those old Yugos.
Showing us beats telling us, hands down. Thanks for taking the time to do this.
AMEN BROTHER!
Many people believe the election was stolen, because people told them. No evidence was ever shown in court.
Long time ago I bought a custom rifle from Accuracy Systems in Colorado. Their website still looks the same as it did back around 2010. Anyway the paperwork that comes with the rifle said that I would void my warranty for using a standard rod style cleaning brush. They stated that it's not the brush itself but the ROD that causes the damage because it will pick up small pieces of hard grime and it will become embedded in the rod, acting somewhat like a file. They state that if they saw evidence of using a cleaning rod if any rifle is sent back for repair, the warranty would be void. They required their customers only use pull-through bore snakes. I did that for a while but once I was done with the break in period I just started using a rod because I couldn't believe the stories about damage. Still shoots fine and I'm not worried about it.
Use a carbon fiber rod with a brass "jag" & a piece of paper towel. I haven't used a brush in a barrel in over 30 years. I will bet that I get a barrel cleaner than anybody on here. A custom gunsmith/barrel maker taught me this secret in the early 90s. Usually, IF the barrel is properly broken in & in good shape, fouling is not an issue.
@@bradgriffith4231 If fouling is not an issue why are you spending so much time making sure you can get a barrel cleaner than anybody on here?
I just mentioned this exact scenario won't even come close to damaging steel. This particular gunsmith got extremely offended and said well I'm referring to an heirloom Model 70, and I really just had to leave it alone. If anyone thinks you can damage stainless steel with thin bronze filament, well might wanna take a metallurgy class, because it's simply BS. I use a bronze brush impregnated with Iosso and doesn't even phase 'em. I've done it to Bartlein,
MPA, Krieger, Benchmark, Ruger, Mossberg, and Remington. Hasn't so much as scratched the steel. It will remove very stubborn carbon though. It's just not possible to damage Chromoly or 416 SS unless as you stated, the steel is soft and wasn't made properly.
He was NOT a competent "gunsmith" if he made the statement you quoted! LOL Steel might be better today than in the past but not significantly enough to matter. Your "gunsmith" has probably never even seen "an heirloom Model 70". I'm 73, have been trading / collecting for over 50 years & I can count on 1 hand the number of pre-64 Model 70s that I have seen. The Kimber America rifles, made in NY, are modern day copies of the pre-64 Model 70. Even their 22LR has a claw extractor like it's big brothers.
Yes, I've heard this BS about a bronze brush damage hardened steel. Really? Then what are the copper plated bullets doing when you shoot them at 3000 fps with a dirty barrel?
Barrels are not hardened steel!
@@dallaspeterson2024 they are. Very specifically as a matter of fact. Between 26-32 RCH so they have a good balance of tensile strength and toughness. Yes not as hard as some steels and metals but unless you take something with a higher rch then you won't hurt anything. 😉 obviously there are some outliers but what outlier would be inside of a gun barrel 😆
The steel in barrels is not hardened steel.
@@greybone777 they are but alright.
Can't help idiots I suppose
I needed to see this video. I thought I messed up my barrel cleaning it to rough but at no point did I clean it this rough lol. Thank you!
Don't know how many times over to 50 years of my shooting that I've been told I'm ruining my barrel by reversing the stroke or pulling it back over to crown never been seeing any damage here either don't know where this information comes from don't think I'd go as far as you did pretty funny LOL thanks
Lou Murdica cleans his barrel also with a cordless drill, only he uses nylon brushes. The reason he uses them is because the bronze let some bronze streek behind in the lands an fields that he afterwards needed to clean. He also let one of his barrel check at the factory, there was not any damage done to the barrel. I believe it’s in the interview with EC of
The inside of it actually looks pretty, and nice mirror shine.
It looks even better now..!
In general, such a situation could happen. I once bought a bronze (it was bronze color) brush and it was made of metal that was magnetized. Cheap сhinese brushes can be made of steel covered with bronze or brass
i imagine this is what people are reporting, seen many cheap chinese bushes sold as brass/bronze that are just coated steel bristles!
Good info
G'day mate, thank you so much for your comprehensive no BS video demonstration, i love the fact that you actually tried to damage that barrel with a drill powered dry bronze brush, i personally find it hilarious that some numbskulls actually believe that poor cleaning practices will do more damage than an extremely tight fitting Full Metal Jacket projectile will do as it's forced through the lands at ballistic speed in front of an explosive charge.
I’ve got a brand new nice Tipton vise, 2 new big bore Henry Golden Boys, it’s winter when I take great joy in cleaning my guns and gear………….THEN I saw these videos scaring me to death of looking at my barrels much less cleaning them!!! I missed 5 good quiet winter days wondering about it and WASTING MY PRECIOUS TIME! This video helped my spidey sense that it was mostly bullshit! Lol much appreciated
Metallurgy 101, softer metals will not harm harder metals such as steel. Even the steel used to hold the bronze bristle is as soft of a steel as you can get, it will twist tight without breaking, that's why they use it. Maybe the fools that are claiming this are heavily invested in nylon brush companies, or, are truly fools. Love this video!
I’ve always preferred bronze brushes vs. nylon. I think they do a better job cleaning your bore.
I laughed at the claims that a brass brush would damage a hardened steel barrel, yet a copper and lead bullet being wedged through it at the speed of sound doesn’t harm it.
Brass & bronze are harder than copper - pretty sure that's why we use them for brushes made to remove copper from steel.
@@muninrob you missed my point, but I am sick and tired of arguing with people that just want to argue, so have a good night.
@@The340king not sure what I said that got your panties in a bunch, but thanks for the response anyway.
@@muninrob it was a long day.
The point was force equals mass times acceleration. The brass and bronze bristles have virtually no mass each and certainly aren't accelerating much, so they impart very little force on the barrel.
The copper bullet on the other hand has substantially more mass and goes from rest to 2,500 fps or so in 20". That's a lot of acceleration and hence force being applied to the barrel. I am willing to wager that you could run that bristle brush through the bore 100 times as fast as you can and not create as much heat as a single round.
The heat is a representation of the friction loss in the barrel. To me that represents the wear capacity. So even if copper is softer, it wears the barrel more due to the forces acting on it and the amount of friction created.
I hope that explains what I was getting at better.
@@The340king Ahh, you're looking at moment of deposition, and stress numbers, while I'm looking at deposit removal and simple rockwell hardness to get to the same place.
I just always assumed the choice of metal for the bristles being harder than lead & copper, but softer than steel was the brush designers knowing what they were for and not being complete idiots.
I am surprised there isn't more streaking from the brass & bronze wearing down against the steel - I was half expecting that brass brush on the drill to leave the barrel looking gold plated. (I've done that to a few rusty tire rims with brass wheel brushes and drills)
Cool idea using a cordless drill, I've never thought of doing that. In total agreement with you. If the material you're using is softer than the material you're cleaning with it, there's no way you CAN damage it! I've heard people even go so far as to say that you have run the bore brush in only ONE direction! If these brushes are so terrible why have people been successfully using them for so long? People can be really paranoid sometimes!
Well, you run it in one direction (breach to muzzle) until the brush is out of the muzzle, then pull it back through. Very often if you stop halfway and reverse direction the brush will jam in the barrel and you have to tap it out. That was the reason behind "one way". What was taught to me was one way ALL the way, then back ALL THE WAY.
I was never scared of the bronze brush but I always was kind of concerned about that hard tip now I’m laughing at myself thanks bud
Great video, I always found it hard to believe that a brass brush could hurt your bore.....especially when a bullets fly down the barrel at 2,500+ fps.
I remember the old saying, "bronze on steel wears ideal" and your demo proves it.
From my experience, it is the bronze brush that suffers not the barrel. I've cleaned barrels that had so bad pitting that they literally ate brushes. Speaking of those, sometimes it is better to avoid thorough cleaning as that may adversely affect the accuracy (or whats left of it). All that cladding with copper and soot fills those pits and kinda smooths out the barrel. Still, that is not the fault of the brush and more like the barrel is done anyway.
Reversing the brush is a good way to break bristles. Starting from chamber end seems to help the brush to live a tad longer.
This is why I WELCOME copper in ALL of my barrels rent free! I'll NEVER use any kind of solvent that will remove copper fouling, nomatter the state of my barrel. I shoot so God damn much through many different caliber and platforms and this idea pretty much applies to almost all platforms, ESPECIALLY in cold hammer forged AR barrels. Whenever I take a new AR and/or gun I've replaced a barrel on I will almost always benchmark both the expected zero and round based off of my ruger AR 556 that's seen well over 8k rounds now. 55g M193 is known to be prettyh much anywhere from 2-3moa which is EXACTLY what I see with a barrel that's either brand new or has been over cleaned and had its copper fouling removed. With the cheap ruger I can take that exact round and shoot moa with it on a good day but normally a solid 1.5moa, "from a bench of course". I do use a bronze brush but only with a very quick pass of clenzoil clp and of course a reliable bore guide, not so much for the bore but for the crown of the barrel. I'd rather have a pitted barrel than a barrel even with the slightest bit of damaged crown. That's the true accuracy killer.
As long as the rifling grips & spins the bullet, accuracy isn't affected unless the crown is damaged or there is unequal pressure on the barrel from improper stock inletting / fit. I float my barrels with more gap than the "internet experts" recommend because wood expands & contracts with minor changes in humidity. This change can be seen with my guitars' tuning going flat, when humidity decreases or sharp when humidity increases, in spite of being in their cases, in my environmentally controlled house in the desert southwest!
Can't help stupid people. The amount of people who dont understand how soft bronze is compared to barrel steel is amazing.
Alotta stupid people in the world today man.. Getting dumber by the hour.
what you did would have damaged the edges of the lands, it did nothing! I am 62 I am a welder and machinist. I have been building custom rifles as a hobbie since 1998 mostly wild- cats. I have shot center fire rifles since I was 14. I have never believed that a bronze brush could do any damage what so ever! Your demonstration was excellent because you did it bone dry and even better yet you did it at a critical area, The muzzle and crown! Perfect! Thank you!
Nice vid. I've always been skeptical about the belief that if you clean a rifle without a bore guide you're going to damage or destroy your gun, this puts that myth to rest.
Hey man, thanks for making this video. I never worried about using a bronze brush, then got into the precision world and have heard all sorts of crazy things. I mean, these guys won't even run a nylon brush past the crown. Who knows...lol. Anyhow thanks again!
Sounds like they are fuckin paranoid. Guns are to shoot and get dirty lolz.
Thank you Sir! Ive always thought that was BS!
According to the Mohs Scale of Hardness for Metals, bronze is a 3 and stainless steel is a 5.5.
Using the Brinell scale, Bronze is 65 and stainless steel is 149.
You are not harming the steel with a bronze brush because it simply doesn't have the ability to do so.
Thank you SCIENCE! 👌👌👌
This. Can't cheat science in this case.
Oh I guess flowing water shaping rocks must be a figment of my imagination.
@@johnm5928 if you constantly rub a bronze cleaning brush against a the harder steel of a rifle barrel for 2 or 3 MILLION strokes of the brush, you MIGHT start to see some wear. If your barrel is worn out at 5,000 rounds and you ran your bronze brush through it 25 times for every shot fired, you're at just 500,000 passes through the barrel (once in and once out is 2 times through the barrel). NOBODY does that.
More realistically, they shoot 20 rounds and use the bronze brush for 10 strokes (20 total passes of the brush). That means 5,000 total passes of the brush or no more than 0.5% of the passes you'd need to start showing wear on the barrel.
Remember, that rock in that stream was polished 24/7 for hundreds of years to get that smooth. Even when people tumble rocks to polish them and are using water and grit to speed the process it takes a tumbler weeks of running all day, every day to polish them.
Bottom line, the bronze brush is not going to ruin your barrel. You'll wear it out from shooting it LONG before you would see any damage caused by the brush.
@@gsh341 you said it "simply doesn't have the ability to do so" but that's not true. Yes it might take a while, but it IS wearing it down. I seriously doubt that it would degrade the performance to any measurable amount, but if you're gonna bring science into a gun fight, be prepared to be scienced back lol
I think I'll start cleaning my barrel just like that, damn that's shiny!!
I was skeptical of this too, because growing up, my Dad almost exclusively used a metal bore brush and then followed up with patches. Never had any issues after probably hundreds of cleanings.
To many children buying expensive toys and assuming things without a test.
Thomas "Speedy" Gonzalez. "Everything is broke until I check it"
Lou Murdica " One test is worth 1000 Expert Opinions"
I have a friend who is always searching the internet for mechanical advice! He has gotten very good at taking things apart but NOT fixing them. I was giving him sh!t about it & told him (me with 50+ years professional mechanic experience) that he is getting bad info. He said; "The general consensus is........". My response was; "The general consensus is NOT a proper diagnosis & it hasn't fixed any of your vehicles so far!" "Expert opinions" & "{general consensus" are worth exactly what they cost.......ZERO!!!!
I would assume it would be pretty hard to damage a material (SS) that is harder then the item being used to clean it (brass/aluminum rod). Good info here. Put that barrel back on a gun after doing the whole barrel with your brush and see how it shoots!
GREAT video! Thanks for posting. Now we need to know what kind of damage can be done with the nasty copper removing foam. I saw a video by GunBlue (retired cop who has been into serious shooting his entire life), and he said that the very thin coating of copper that gets deposited is the best thing ever for a barrel, and shouldn't be removed. I no longer use that foam.
There's a lot of fear mongering out there. Even in the gun community. Gunsmiths will tell you that if you hear metal on metal that you could be causing damage. They still use steel rods in the military and their guns shoot strait. Heat and pressure will wear your barrel, not a couple clicks from a rod or brush.
That's partially dependent on what your doing, for the average shooter your correct. If your chasing the ELR championship then you should probably keep the steel rod away from your crown in an abundance of caution.
I do wonder how many of the people in youtube comment sections freaking out over bronze brushes have ever even fired a weapon let alone cleaned one. I've been using bronze since I was a kid, and those rifles are still shooting today without issue.
Same goes for the whole "breaking in" of a barrel.
@@VictorMarines06 I agree.
Military weapons get the barrels changed out because firing them on "Rock & Roll" creates excessive heat & barrel wear, especially barrel erosion where the bullet enters the barrel. My buddy said his Master Sargeant took his M16 & threw it away when he boarded the flight out of Vietnam to come home. He was a SeaBee & spent Saturdays & Sundays drinking beer & wearing out his M16 shooting at the empty cans he threw in the Mekong River!! Said his M16 probably had more rounds through it than any true combat rifles in the area! LOL
As a materials engineer, all I can say about the idea of destroying a 4150 steel barrel with a bronze or copper brush is...
🙄😂
It's the softness of the bronze that acts as a carrier of more abrasive elements, in a barrel with powder and primer fouling.
@@Resistculturaldecline
Even the byproducts of smokeless powder combustion isn't harder than the barrel steel.
@@mushroomcloud1 Humbly, I'll say that frequent cleaning is completely unnecessary. But yes, the barrel is the harder of surfaces so its not a 1:1 ratio of each surfaces equally wearing the other surface. But softer surfaces wear harder surfaces all the time, everyday, 24/7 especially when there's a media between them that can act as an abrasive compound. A blade eventually wears a sharpening stone. Hairs will eventually dull a blade, a buffing cloth can polish a paint, so on and so forth.
I'll add that John Krieger, imo the best barrel maker on the planet advises sharp care be taken, and not to over clean a barrel, great care at the crown due to threat of wear. It doesn't take much wear. I'm far from an authority myself but I've been around long range rifles all my life, father was a builder and competitor for 30 yrs. Shot ranges from 100yd - 1000yd. Some 100yd groups verified in competition at .040"
At that level, causing a barrel machined surface discrepancy of .0001" is a mile in the wrong direction. Could get 4000 accurate rounds from a factory Remington .308 varmint barrel, still shooting 1/2" at that round count, up from .200" when new. Those barrels never saw a bronze brush. Only patch cleaning.
4140, not 4150
@@bradgriffith4231
AR barrels are made out of both 4140 and 4150 steel.
4150 has a higher tensile strength.
4140 is more ductile.
Both are much harder than a copper brush.
Thank you for the comment.
The company I work for manufactures diamond and CBN bore hones for barrel manufacturing, from .22 to 30mm. I can agree, there is no common use of a bronze or brass brush that will destroy a barrel. I appreciate videos that call out the false claims. Nic job!
He is correct. The 416R stainless barrel as shown in this video (and the majority of precision rifle barrels) are 28-32Rc. That is hard. No way a soft bronze brush will damage the ID of a barrel.
That is not even approaching hard. Still free machining.
People that think a bronze brush can damage a steel bore also think you can cut your arm off with a stick of butter.
😂😂😂😂😂 I've heard this before at the range. Got to be one of the things that makes me laugh the hardest!!!
I tried to explain, to a "know-it-all" ex-friend, that a barrel vibrates, much like a guitar string, & it must vibrate at the exact same frewquency every time the trigger is pulled for the best accuracy. He "educated" me, telling me I was wrong & that the LEAD bullet actually swells the STEEL barrel as it goes down the tube & then, (I guess) the barrel snaps back to original size after the bullet exits! He's an ex-friend because I can't stand idiots!!
@@bradgriffith4231 that actually hurt my head reading. You chose wisely.
Dont trust this video, bronze will DESTROY your barrel, use only tungsten brushes instead.
A tree once damaged a hardened steel axe when the axe was being used to cut down the tree. Oh wait, that never happened. Never mind.
I have never worried about a bronze brush damaging the bore. But the comments have convinced me I need to clean the brush more often
🤣🤣
I found this too enjoyable
I believe I started hearing this in the 90s!? Do a search of the "Brinell Scale" then compare "bronze" & "steel using that scale. You'll see what I'm getting at. I love the physical comedy in this video. - Godspeed
Well, heck, I'm converted now. Thank you for educating, brother!
This made me laugh so hard. Thanks for sharing!
Firearms is another field that gets loaded with weird myths.
I’ve shot guns my whole life and always cleaned my firearms with a bronze brush. Never ever have I ruined a barrel. Thanks for showing this.