The Copper Fouling Lie ~ Don't Fall for It!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- Purveyors of copper removing solvents have created a major industry on the demonstrably false premise that you must faithfully remove copper from your barrel to maintain accuracy and prevent the buildup of excess pressures. Don't let them profit at the expense of your rifle barrel!
It’s an interesting theory but I know there are a lot of high level competition shooters that would strongly disagree with you. My problem with your philosophy of never cleaning the copper out is that if you use a bore scope to look down your barrel there are usually specific areas that the copper tends to amass in and it’s far from being uniform throughout the barrel. I would sure think that has to have some impact on the bullet when there is varying depth in the lands from the high and low build ups of the copper. As far as the bronze brush getting destroyed by the copper solvent I don’t doubt it at all but most copper solvents recommend you use a nylon brush anyways. I’m not saying you’re wrong but from my experience and based on the recommendations of world class shooters I will continue to clean the copper out of mine every 100 - 150 rounds or so.
AMEN to your comment . Had a discussion at a club range with a 1,000 yard B.R. shooter , he was in the top 3 world wide . I asked him if he cleaned his bore at matches . He said , every chance he gets . They are allowed fouling shoots before scoring . It's utterly stupid to think that a bore with a build up of cooper is going to shoot as good as one that isn't . Fouling is fouling , regardless of type . The only difference, it's easier to remove copper fouling than
carbon fouling.
High level competitions shooters a different from the normal shooter. 99% of normal shooters will never get the groups that those top 100 of people get. Those people buy a new barrel after like 1000-2000 rounds because the group gets 0,25 MOA bigger, wich a normal shooter will never notice. So cleaning your rifle the whole time will do nothing for you if you are not in the ranks of the best shooters. I would say that i shoot relativly good groups and i do not notice a change if i shot let's say 500 rounds before going to the range or using a nearly 100% perfectly cleaned rifle.
Regarding your story about the shooter who was swabbing his bore with a caustic substance every few rounds, one of my customers in New Hampshire reported a very similar experience in the 1980s. I had sold him a match grade AR15 which was supposed to print half MOA groups. Within a couple of weeks he returned it to me claiming he could not longer keep his shots on paper. I shipped the rifle back to the manufacturer for inspection. I later received a call from the owner of the company who informed me all the rifling was gone. Further inquiry with the customer revealed his practice was to stroke the bore at least five times after every single shot with a stainless steel brush and a strong solvent he had acquired from Canada. He had effectively lapped his 416 stainless steel, broach cut barrel until there was no discernible rifling left. The manufacturer charitably agreed to replace the barrel on the condition he cease this insane practice and stop using this particular solvent. People have asked me in disbelief if I knew what the solvent was made from. I think it contained ammonia, but aside from this, I don't know because the customer never told me.
I'd lean more to his brushing the heck out of the bore with a SS brush, rather than the solvent. But I wouldn't be brushing every shot, either. Did the buyer say WHY he was doing that ?? Personally, I just watch for cra* in the rifling grooves b4 I 'scrub' a barrel.
@@fasteddie1360 He believed the least amount of debris adversely affected accuracy. Apparently he was wrong.
@@fasteddie1360
The brush has to be softer. A friend of mine gave out a rifle in afghanistan and the same day it came back clean as can be but with most of the rifling gone. Others worked out...that one was going all around the base to look for 'better' ways to clean the barrel and got his hands on an oversized hardened brush from some helicopter maintenance crew.
Oh yeah….blame Canada!
Maybe he mis-understood "which bore" to stroke with that SS brush -OOOWWW ! Gotta watch where you apply that thing.
Of the firearms guys that I watch with any frequency, not all of them are trying to sell me something. But you’re the only one who actively tries to help me keep the money in my bank account. Much appreciated.
My old .303 won't shoot unless the barrel is filthy. A friend cleaned it for me one day and it took about 30 rounds before it started grouping. Lesson learned.
Good information. Just so you know we'll water in north Mississippi will eat through copper in a few years. We learned the hard way
👍Great explanation! I've tried copper cutters a couple of times and found that for me it took way too much of my time with no visible benefit...
Well now Im curious what solvents dont do this as it seems many of the common ones advertise breaking down copper.
Artillery had problems and placing a tin sheet behind the projectile helped keep the bore from fouling 😊
So CFE223 powder with copper fouling eraser is just marketing?
Just use your common sense and don't believe everyone. Thank you for another great lesson. Greetings from the Netherlands.
I'm pretty sure that the same barrels I've cleaned with Hoppe's 9 got even more cleaner when I hit them with Ballistol later. lol.
I clean my barrel with sos pad
Agree 100%
Thank you! Might you recommend a cleaning product that HAS your confidence?????????
When you shoot your gun it removes some copper and replaces it. That bullet is being cut by the rifling and squeezing through.
I totally agree with this.
You are wrong! But it is about solid copper bullets, not about copper jacket lead bullets
I clean my barrels with patches and mineral spirits. Then I run an oiled patch through. Works for me.
In an age when common sense is uncommon, it's nice to gather wisdom from a wise man who gained wisdom through experience and time. You're a national treasure!
If the guy told you to put a pin needle into your pee hole, would you do it?
When I started precision rifle shooting I always cleaned the barrels with a copper solvent after 50 rounds. Next time on the range it took me about 8-12 fouling shots just to get the point of impact back where it was before and to get back proper precision. After a while it dawned me how dumb and also expensive that practice was and never removed the copper from barrels since, and after many hundred rounds through my .308 and .300 they still hold 0.5 to 0.75 MOA consistently.
That was exactly our experience. It creates cold clean bore syndrome.
@@GunBlue490 should I fire copper jacketed ammo for my .22LR rifles? I think I only have used lead bullets on some of them eg Aguila super but I have some cci minimags...
I think I've answered my own question 😅
@Bear Gillium the copper on 22 lr projectiles is more a copper wash or coating that is far softer than a jacketed centerfire round so it shouldn't do anything much to the bore.
If anything its cleaner than using straight up lead projectiles.
What cleaning solvents do you use?
@@GunBlue490 so you acknowledge it exists, but you choose not to address it because it’s not absolutely necessary?
Thank you for sharing your faith, your firearm knowledge, your construction know how and your culinary skills. Sir you are" smarter than the average bear" by far. God bless you and your family.
He's a gun smith. You do understand that barrel makers tend to tell their customers not to clean their barrels? And gun smiths would tell their customers not to do anything with their firearms. Want to know why? It's so you can continue to buy from them as you wear your stuff out. Like anything out there, taking care of your equipment is going to go a long ways. If you clean your firearms with approved chemicals and methods, then you're going to have a firearm that's going to last for generations.
@@Dan-di9jd Which barrel maker tells their customers not to clean their barrels? Examples please.
@@thatguy2383I’m wondering the same thing. I’ve never heard a barrel manufacturer or a gunsmith say you shouldn’t clean your bore.
I have become exhausted by having arguments in comments sections over this. I officially no longer care to try to save the TH-cam shooting community from themselves. I tell people I curate copper during barrel break-in to improve accuracy, and I get no end of push-back from about two generations of self-proclaimed-know-it-alls. I'm over it, lol.
What does that mean to "curate copper"? Never heard that term before?
@@jeffdonofri8027 Deliberately allow it to build up and collect in parts of the barrel that are otherwise imperfections in the cutting of the lands and grooves of the rifling, and purposely leave it there.
@@jeffdonofri8027 Like: what do you do when you curate a collection of anything. Some things you save, some things you don't. In this instance I'm removing lead and carbon fouling, and retaining copper. It isn't like I read it somewhere, I just used the words curate and copper together because, well, it is a short way of describing it. So much for that plan though...
Is blue on the cleaning patch a bad thing? Remove carbon only?
@@davidpaulk5658 blue or greenish is the copper coming out
I'm far from an expert, but I appreciate the logic. I'm also too lazy to remove the copper fowling and all my firearms shoot just fine. Another great video from the man!
*Fouling
Blink twice if you are referring to Sweet's 7.62 Solvent, a highly corrosive copper solvent. In fairness, the directions on the bottle warn not to let it remain in the bore or other metal surfaces longer than 15 minutes. I used it about two times and was scared off, but the .30 caliber ammo can that I stored all my bore cleaning solvents, especially Sweet's, reeked of ammonia and literally peeled the paint off the interior of the A-box, I discarded the bottle soon after. When the U.S Military's ammo was corrosive, it was thought that metallic fouling would cover areas of the bore which contained corrosive salts deposited from previous rounds and that it was imperative to remove the metal (copper or Antimony) fouling with a solution of Sal Soda which was mixed under the watchful eye of the Drill Instructor, then with all fouling removed, hot water would be swabbed through the bore to wash away the corrosive salts (info taken from 'Manual For Non-commissioned Officers And Privates OF Infantry Of The Army Of The United States 1917_ Revised To June 4, 1918'.
I was hoping it was not 'Shooter's Choice' solvent. I used that for a couple of years. Did not seem to hurt my barrels though. I went back to Hoppe's though, and will never change again.
@@nathanlambshead4778 amen. i've never had anything work better than Hoppe's for my needs. (pistol, HP / Service Rifle XTC). If I shoot three matches in a row and the Hoppe's isn't working fast enough, a patch or two of JB does the trick because it's exactly what it says... abrasive paste to bust out the carbon. When the patch runs through smooth then I hit it again with a pass or two of Hoppe's and she's slick as a whistle.
@@nathanlambshead4778 all the good solvents contain some degree of ammonia. Yes, so does Hoppes. Ammonia does not hurt the barrel just by normal basic usage
@@John_Redcorn_ true but Hoppes also obtains rust preventative as well. Plus it just smells great.
Funny thing is what got the corrosive salts out was the water, not the solvents.
My first fine rifle was a .243 with a very accurate Shilen heavy-varminting barrel. I shot hundreds of rounds through it, just cleaning powder fouling out of it periodically with Hoppes #9. Eventually it started blowing burned powder around the bolt into my face. When I took it to the gunsmith, he chewed me out over the copper fouling, saying he had to soak the barrel in copper solvent overnight to remove the fouling, because it had built up so much. He told me never to let my rifles go like that again. He'd been in the business decades. He would know. The next time I shot the rifle, it was fine again.
Tony Boyer, the most successful benchrest shooter in history, recommends (Chapter 17 "Cleaning the Barrel" of his Book of Rifle Accuracy) cleaning the bore of a benchrest rifle every 20-40 rounds. He mentions the use of Sweets and Montana Extreme solvents, which are designed for copper fouling. He starts that chapter out by asserting that copper as well as carbon builds up in the barrel as you shoot.
A factory rifle may have a barrel with a significantly larger diameter than a high-quality barrel like a Shilen, Krieger, or Lilja, so it may take hundreds of rounds of copper fouling before pressure increases would become a safety issue. My barrels are all of benchrest quality. I'll continue to follow the advice of the smiths who build my rifles, and of Tony Boyer. Once you've had burning powder blow back into your face, you take a dimmer view of the idea that copper fouling doesn't build up and require periodic cleaning.
I agree. There's definitely copper in the bore, and a simple patch with an ammonia based cleaner will prove that. A bore scope will also show this. I've purchased rifles (for a song) from guys that told me the barrel was "shot out", and on every one of them, a good cleaning was all that was needed to bring them back. And yes, copper was part of the issue.
I’ve only had that blowback a few times but it was from too hot of a load. Copper is too soft and will get pushed out of the barrel every time. Now carbon is a different story.
I've had different experiences with copper fouling in different rifles. I had a Remington 700 in .308 that had an extremely rough barrel that would copper foul excessively. It would take about 5 rounds for the barrel to foul properly to shoot consistent. Then I could shoot about 60 rounds at about 0.7MOA. If I kept shooting, even after removing carbon fouling, the groups would open up to 2 MOA or greater if I kept shooting. Removing the copper fouling would bring it back to a 0.7MOA rifle. I also worked on a 1903A3 that had never had the copper fouling removed. A family member who owned it complained about accuracy. It almost had all the rifling shot out of it and the copper fouling after about 25 rounds would make it a smooth bore. I could actually see keyholes on a 50 yard target. Cleaned the copper fouling out, which took days because of the buildup over the years. It took 2 shots to foul properly and it would hold about 1 MOA for about 20 to 25 shots. After that it needed the copper fouling cleaned out to regain accuracy. I also own a rifle with a Bartlien barrel. That rifle could shoot over 500 rounds and not lose accuracy from copper fouling. I do like the suggestion about not using caustic chemicals to remove copper fouling, if you are going to do so. KG-12 is not caustic. It will not hurt your steel barrel in any way no matter how long you keep it in the barrel. It was designed for the military and large bore rifles. I agree that in general the military isn't worried about copper fouling. That's because they only have a 2-3 MOA requirement. Most of their rifles with ball ammo are not capable of anything better. For the precision shooting I do, I've noticed accuracy degradation from copper fouling in every rifle after a certain point. When you've got a rifle shooting 0.3 MOA and all of a sudden it's shooting 0.7 MOA, that's a problem in my sport. When cleaning the carbon out of the barrel doesn't fix the problem, that leaves only one culprit. Copper!
MY 7X57 Featherweight. If I just run Hoppes 9 through it. Even 50 patches with a plastic jag. they'll all have blue-green color on them. Not the same with my Shaw Barrel on my .25-06. It cleans right up. I broke it in with JBs Bore Paste and Hoppes as recommended by E. ARTHUR Brown Co. where I've bought two barrels. I did NOT do a break in on the 70 Featherweight and it seems to throw out copper with every patch. Only difference besides no "break in" was ones a hammer forged and the two others are Button rifled. My .260 didn't seem to be bothered by EABCOs break in with JB Bore Paste followed with Hoppes #9
A 1903 with no rifling that goes from keyholing to moa accuracy...hmm.
(X) Doubt
@@griftinggamerwell first, I didn't say it had no rifling, I said almost no rifling with the copper fouling buildup. After the copper of 100 years of shooting was removed there was rifling, just quite worn down. This is what sold me on removing copper fouling from my rifles. Years later I proved that copper fouling buildup affects groups at 1000 yards. But the limit is always variable depending on the rifle. I find that quality custom barrels are affected less by copper fouling than factory barrels. However they are all affected in some way. For reference you can look up F-Class John's videos on barrel cleaning and why he removes copper fouling. Or you could look up Eric Cortina and his cleaning routine. These are pros that compete and win constantly. Maybe they're on to something.
Well, I disagree somewhat. 50 years experience between my uncle and I say different. F-Class shooters say different. However, people need to try for themselves and see what works for them.
But I promise, whether you clean totally or not you have to store your barrel with an oil coating inside or it will react with moisture even in the hot dry desert. Bore snake the oil out before shooting if you can.
Copper is one of the main ingredients in high performance alloys of bearing bronze that practically slip off unlike metals🤯
Seems like “copper fouling” is another attempt to market more products to government agencies and the average consumer 🤷🏻♂️
Spot on.
@@GunBlue490 I have always just used hoppes number nine for everything swab the barrel then a bronze/ brass brush wipe dry oil and wipe out. But I do need to find something that works good for leading in my revolvers from shooting a lot of cast bullets
@@JamesBond-so1of Why? Lead is even softer than copper and by this logic should only continue to make your firearms more accurate.
@@JamesBond-so1of Well Mr. Bond or should I call you 007? Years ago I was a Brinks Canada instructor and it was all S&W revolvers in 38 Spl. We normally bought jacketed ammo but there was one time the only 38 Spl we could find was Federal American Eagle 158 grain Lead Round Nose. Thankfully it was a week at an outdoor range. Over that week there were thousands of rounds fired and at the end of every day the revolvers cleaned.
M-PRO-7 in the big spray bottles was what we were supplied for cleaning. I’ve watched as both blued and stainless barrels would get strings of soft lead exactly the same size as the barrel grooves pushed out after those barrels were sprayed and mopped and let soak for a while as the trainees cleaned the exteriors. Then using plain old bronze bore brushes some of the barrels released these lead strips upto .75”.
Never witnessed it before or since and I was loading my own lead semi-wad cutter rounds on a Lee Pro-1000 and firing them out of S&W Mod. 19.
@@timothyrepp4259 lead is too soft, it galls and leaves lead in the rifling not just the machining marks.
My first rifle was a 1917 Enfield. For the first 30yrs all it ever fired was military ammo. My Dad taught me to clean it with boiling water and when clean run a couple of patches with 3in1 oil through it. Did the same for the next 28yrs using mostly non corrosive ammo. After 58yrs and thousands of rounds it still shoots the same. Its the most accurate rifle I've ever owned and just cleaned with hot water.
I love 3in1 oil. That stuff is a hidden gem amongst all the razzle dazzle gimmicky clever advertisement oils
Good tips thx
Surprised your dad, who you claim used it for 58 years, did not tell you the reason why he put boiling water through it after shooting what you claim is "military ammo."
@Dan-di9jd
Where did he state his dad used the rifle for 58 years?
For a 1917 Enfield to only fire military ammo for the first 30 years of its life is to be expected. They were retained by the military until after WWII.
@Dan-di9jd your comprehension is peerless.
If hoppes #9 don’t get it out in three passes it needs to stay there.
At 10:00 that's a good point you make. Copper is incredibly resistive to the elements so anything that can break it down has to be extremely caustic/corrosive. Copper is what they used to plate the bottom of warships in the 19th century. Galvanic corrosion is the only thing I worry about with copper in the bore and it would quickly corrode the iron fasteners used to attach the copper plating to warships, but only because salt water makes such an excellent electrolyte. How great of an electrolyte the air is depends heavily on your climate/humidity/temperature/sea spray etc, but can also be prevented by using a light coating of oil to seal the copper and iron from the air, ie regular maintenance.
Oil in a barrel? If excess copper gets blown out with each shot, why wouldn’t a hydrocarbon compound?
Caustic doesn’t mean corrosive. It means, highly alkaline on the pH scale. Which in the case of steels is actually the opposite of corrosive. Just because a solvent reacts with copper does not mean it reacts with steel in the same way. In the case of copper removal solvents, the active ingredient is almost always ammonia. Steel is highly resistant to ammonia but copper is highly reactive with ammonia. Just trying to get the right info out there because this stuff is not common knowledge.
I didn't start shooting until the mid '80's. One guy at work had spent 20 years in the military. He told me that far more rifle barrels had been ruined with a cleaning rod than had ever been shot out. One or two wet patches with good old Hoppe's No. 9, then a few clean patches always being careful of the muzzle crown was what he suggested. A trace of gun oil if the rifle was going to be put away for a while, like over the winter, nothing more. I've never had a problem with one of my rifle barrels.
He's probably right about too much cleaning but the military has a habit of wanting those weapons spotless before they would be allowed to be returned to the arms rooms.
I have a few ar's that I have never cleaned the barrels. One has over 5g rounds. I wipe the bcg down with a dry rag and re-lube it that's it....still shoots good
@@gmac8852 not to mention troops would use brake cleaner & other harsh solutions to quickly get carbon out to pass inspection... doing that after in many cases only shooting 40 rounds...
@@JJ_SDWR Yeah I was using all kinds of stuff including homemade picks and scrapers .
I have NEVER seen a barrel worn out by a cleaning rod in my 54 years, that is another bull shit people buy into!!
I was under the impression that once the copper deposits stabilize, accuracy increases.
In rifle bore cleaning ( for the Lazy shooters) there is videos that claim copper fouling or carbon fouling is not a problem . Copper fouling will build up if not removed . How much and how soon depends on the quality of the bore , but regardless , it will build up if not removed . Either fouling will affect accuracy at some point.
My experience has told me the same thing. Copper fouling will definitely build up! Along with Carbon fouling! When accuracy is affected, the stubborn process of clearing it out and seeing accuracy regained will make you a believer! This is one of those videos you speak of...... Experience has taught us otherwise!
My father told me this at the age of 9, he’s was a bowl maker machinist great video.
what a man, father and machinist by the age of nine, hats off.
I'm telling you, an American treasure.
I have never cleaned copper fouling out of my barrels, and my main hunting rifle in 338 win mag shoots sub 3/4 moa all day so long as a person can handle the recoil.
My vintage Brite-Bore cleaning kits that I got from an uncle didn't have anything in them about removing copper, and neither does my Hoppe's cleaning kit. So I didn't know it was a "problem" until a few years ago when I was hearing about it through marketing. Instead of jumping in feet first for the "latest and greatest" in gun cleaning I just followed what my vintage kits recommended as I never had a problem with my firearms, and I figured that they knew a thing or two about cleaning guns back in the day. In my mind if copper fouling was an issue they would have discovered it by then.
You may be right about most barrels but not all. My 17hmr will copper foul after about 100 rounds. Accuracy goes out the window. Once it's fully cleaned it goes back to sub moa. I have owned it since it hit the market. When the barrel was new it would only go about 20 rounds. So at least in 1 case copper fouling is a thing.
I thought it interesting, I purchased a "custom" rifle from Montana Rifle Co (since out of business - what does that tell you ?) and it came with a sheet that called for thirty shots with jacketed bullets, in groups of ten and cleaning. And I was scratching my head, and has been bugging me all these years. So glad to hear this - better late than never.
My gunsmith tells me the same thing this video did. He has all kinds of trophies, said all he ever used Hoppes 9 original.
They dont usually call for copper solvent though just regular cleaning.
Did they suggest using a copper solvent? Breaking-in a barrel is a totally different topic than whether or not to clean out copper fouling. And it's another controversial topic, haha.
Wise words from a wise man. I have also learned this the hard way over time. If something is strong enough to turn patches blue and strip copper out of your barrel, it will eventually do the same to hard chrome lining.
I appreciate sharing your wisdom on this... God bless you and yours
I enjoy these "sit down" videos.. I too am a mineral oil convert, thanks to you ! Its amazing how clean a gun gets with a paint brush, a slop of mineral oil and an air compressor, in less than 5 minutes !!!!
one thing i would never put on a gun is that lucus gun oil, or anything made by lucus. Test after test shows that stuff does nothing to stop rust
Hunting/shooting/firearms videos turn-off - very often they feature unsavory-looking/sounding people:
1. fat people
2. men who are not clean-shaven
3. people not well-dressed and groomed
4. people with bad diction or poor English
5. people with visible tattoos
6. snowflake idiots
It would be nice if the American sport hunting, shooting and defensive gun community were represented by more gentlemanly, polished and educated-sounding people. When people representing hunting or other outdoor sports have a greasy biker, trailer-trash or homeless bum look, it's a total turn off to me.
Well, discover Mr. Gun Blue 490. He is the notable exception who stands out from all the rest. This is one repectable man representing shooting, hunting and guns in America on this site. Mr. Gun Blue is a respectible New England gentleman with a pleasing deep voice and a good head on him. He is a model shooting sports ambassador for old-fashioned American fun.
Dead on as always sir. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom. I hope to have 10% of the knowledge you have one day.
Copper acts as a lubricant and makes things smoother and tighter. People are suckers for snake oil (copper cleaner) salesman but someone has to buy the snake oil. Rather they sell snake oil we know so they aren’t looking for ways to scam us.
Turning 74 this month, and I'm still trying to graduate from my "dumb and stupid" phase when it comes to all things ballistic... More good stuff from one who knows.
I’m from this camp too…just about to go the way of the dodo but you’ve just reassured me I’ve been doin right
I clean with Ballistol never had any type of problem.
I often think back to the time i spent working with my dad. He allways had a better way of doing something that was not only easier but cheaper too. You remind me of him and i love to listen and learn from your life lessons you share with us, God Bless and say high to Bengie.
I've shot thousands and thousands of rounds through all sorts of weapons during my years in the Army. This is spot on. I never once noticed any copper fouling in my barrel after a quick boresnake run through. If running boxes and boxes of 7.62 through a 240 machine gun at 640 rounds per minute won't do it, I don't think anything can. I also agree that the military spec CLP doesn't do much for cleaning besides stink things up. After the range, I always snuck off with my soldiers to the ultrasonic solvent tank when in garrison if I could. That thing works miracles.
I'll admit I used to be OCD about removing copper from my barrels after every shooting session, no matter the round count. Now I'm the polar opposite, I only clean it after a ton of rounds have been through it, and I don't try to get all the copper out. I bet the caustic copper remover he mentioned was Sweet's 762. I used to have some of that several years ago but I quit using it because it was just too potent. I think most of the barrel cleaning myths were perpetuated by barrel manufacturers so they could sell more barrels to those who wore theirs out from too aggressive cleaning.
What solvent do you use now?
@@donrowan760 Hoppes #9 for cleaning copper out of the bore.
I switched to boretech and am really liking their products
Thank you for covering this, makes good sense to me. As always, another informative and thought provoking video, much appreciated.
I never bought into this barrel break in thing. It’s a bunch of hog wash. In a match I shoot all day .cleaning rods remain at home. If you feel the need to polish your bore to a mirror like shine shoot some powder coated projectiles at around 1300-1500fps. People who clean their guns during a match just up their heart rate through vigorous cleaning and eventually their groups go South.
If it won't shoot dirty I won't own it
My Question: if dissimilar metals interact, in this case steel and copper, it will cause electrolysis and corrosion is the outcome. Are you saying that no copper is laid down as the bullet accelerates down the barrel, but only carbon is?
Sir I agree, in the 1990's I scowered my barrel to rid copper to only find accurcy to deminish utill it was reastablished !
Dear sir, if you tell me it's left boot on before right and then explain why, i will give it serious thought. god bless
So glad you spoke about this, I have been fighting this fight for years of filling pot holes and leave it alone. I have an old 700 BDL in .270 and they built this one right. From day one it was a clover leaf at 100, and it got better over time. Longest shot on that rifle 445 paces across a prairie slightly uphill nice buck antelope and his does surrounded him so I only had the cervical spine shot he was facing me. Still in my safe and it will never leave! Maybe someday speak to leading and carbon build up? Great conversation thank you sir.
Since I have been following your instructions on youtube, I only use odorless paint thinner to clean my firearms with excellent results! I do not even want to think about the money I spent using the marketed solvents, CPL`s, blah, blah, blah. I was a cash cow to those companies for years. Sir, you definitely know what you are talking about! Thanks, and God bless you!
Always a pleasure watching your videos 👍 thank you for sharing the knowledge
It has been a while, but as I recall, the copper-solvent bore cleaners have ammonia in them. Ammonia is very corrosive! About the only way I know to neutralize it is with lots of water. Definitely not something you want left in your bore, or on any cleaning equipment.
You're correct. Ammonia is the active ingredient in copper removers, and is exactly what ruined three of my good Sako rifles.
Sorry, but no. Unless your barrel is made from brass, ammonia did not and CANNOT ruin a steel barrel. When you say, “ammonia is very corrosive!”, I would ask, corrosive to what? Saying something is corrosive doesn’t say anything. It depends on what material it reacts with. In the case of Ammonia, it is very corrosive to copper, brass and most bronze alloys but is completely ineffective on steel. In fact, steel is extremely resistant to ammonia and is used throughout the world to pipe highly concentrated ammonia through refrigeration systems.
Cleaning lubricants are just like military intelligence. Contradictory terms. :)
Correct
I use Hoppe's No.9 solvent, I'll run a bore brush through it a couple times, then gun oil with patches till it comes out clean. Like you said, I don't want to remove the smoothness of the bore. Thanks for your videos. 🇺🇸
That's what I do
Never used the stuff. Also , right or wrong I never put anything down the barrel once sighted in until hunting season was over. Seen many people at the range sighting their rifles in for deer season and once they had it sighted in ,they start puting oil and brushes down the barrel. I guess they don't realize that first shot after cleaning will more than likely not be very accurate??
I use 3in1and never had problem.
No
@@DinoNucci yes
@@JohnDoe-mt8rf wrong
I think your correct for most mass produced factory hunting rifle barrels. They're so full of imperfections they need a filler. On a custom rifle cut and lapped barrel I think it's a different story and I would only use nylon brushes with carbon cleaner and patches with mild copper cleaners. I doubt you would find a top 20 competitive bench rest shooter that doesn't remove copper from their barrel and those matches come down to 0.001" or 0.002" between winning and losing.
No, the latest cold hammer forged factory barrels are absolutely not full of imperfections and rival hand lapped barrels made on old fashioned broaches. What you doubt is not a statistic. Please supply factual statistics with competitor's names.
Any serious BenchRest competitor, or LONG RANGE competitor
People that depend on accuracy for a living, the National Match shooters do not clean their barrels. They clean the upper/lower, receivers and the bolt carrier group. The only time they will clean a barrel during a season is when accuracy falls off.
interesting video. I was a law enforcement sniper/observer for numerous years. The group I shot with monthly would always harp about keeping their barrel clean and copper cleaning their guns frequently. (and go nuts on me when my cleaning kit consisted of a bottle of solvent and a boresnake) I had an older Remington 700p that I shot until the barrel started to finally give out (in excess of 5,000 rounds) and start to open up. We would have our guns barrels scoped once a year to check for wear, erosion and firecracking. I would always clean with Boretech copper cleaner prior to this inspection but that was the only time. It was a pretty mild copper cleaner and you would have to use their aluminum shaft/nylon bristles in order to prevent false positive patches from being pulled out when cleaning. Other than that, my philosophy was that I equated the copper to asphalt filling in the potholes in the road and making it smoother. I thought it was funny you equate it to spackling sheetrock. Same thing. My cleaning regimen (good, bad or indifferent) was usually only pulling a boresnake through 2-3 times tops after running a patch down the barrel with solvent. That was pretty much it. The rifle would always shoot 3/4" consistently which was about all I needed. Whenever I did the "deep cleaning" of removing all the copper, the groups would open up substantially and shift, until I had 5-10 rounds down the barrel. I definitely think you're on to something!
As always, I'm late to the meeting. Great info... I bought into the, CLP after a conversation with a co-worker 6 or 7 years ago. I'm going to get back to the products I've used previously. Thanks, and God Bless...
Once again Sir thank you for addressing the copper controversy with factual information in a clear,concise and logical presentation.I’ve watched several of your previous presentations on gun cleaning and I only use mineral spirits(Hoppe’s #9 love the smell) and mineral oil.I’ve watched several other videos where they go into great detail on removing copper with their copper removing product.Something in the back of my mind told me to take their info with a grain of salt and now I know it was because “if GunBlue490 doesn’t recommend it forget it”look forward to your next information session.Brian Levin BC Canada
Do you use Hope’s #9 to clean your barrel with the one that says solvent or without?
Generally the only time you want to remove copper from your bore is if you are going to start using solid copper not copper jacketed bullets for some reason if you follow one bullet construction style with the other they DO NOT like that. It’s odd. But once you establish which projectiles you wanna use then don’t change and don’t remove copper!
With age comes wisdom listen up thank you for your Channel I don't have nearly as much time under my belt as you do in my early sixties former Army infantry served in the early 80s appreciate you peace out from the West Coast dump truck driver be safe be well
When I de-copper my 7 mags every 25-30 rounds, accuracy is 3/8", otherwise groups open up. This is very typical for Remington Rifles.
Keep getting that copper fouling out . Fouling is fouling , regardless of type . Don't listen to this idiot .
@@RivenRock300 I bought my 300 Win Mag new back in 1994 and it'd always shot .75" groups. One day several years back, I watched a video about the horrors of copper fouling and foolishly looked in my bore. And damned if I didn't see copper streaks. So...I bought some copper solvent and scrubbed it out. I thought...now this rifle is really going to be a shooter! Took it to the range...and was horrified when the nice little .75" groups turned into 1.5" groups with a significant POI shift! Luckily...by the end of that box of ammo the groups had settled back to where they had been before cleaning. Now why would I listen to an "idiot" like you telling me I should continue to do something that cost me money and time...not to mention an expensive box of ammo...just to end up having to shoot the bore back to where it was? I'm not saying that there aren't any bores that might shoot best when absolutely spotless. But the lesson I learned was that if it ain't broke...don't "fix" it! And that some bores benefit from leaving the copper where it lies. As a matter of fact...most of these "break-in" formulas are just a variety of ways of laying copper in the bore until it starts grouping properly. And BTW...calling GunBlue an "idiot" because he's had a different experience than you...and probably much MORE experience than you...is childish and petty. And reeks of someone with LDS (Little Dick Syndrome)!!!
I can't tell you how much I appreciate your input. You've made me a better marksman, hunter and generally better educated sportsman over the past few years. Thank you sir.
I've had a couple instances with very high round count pistols using plated copper bullets the fouling was so bad I saw some unpredictable stuff creeping up on me then going away after the copper was removed, but it was really bad. Still great to hear this perspective and experience. CFE powder specifically designed by military to erase copper fouling (the acronym) for belt fed guns.I don't discount what you are saying at all just throwing that out there.
I know this isn't directly related to this video, but I would be interested in hearing your thoughts and experiences as they pertain to steel-case and bimetal-jacket ammunition.
The answer is one of simple government economics. Prosperous countries use copper jackets and brass cases. Third world and Communist states use steel cases and jackets because they can't afford what they really want.
I agree, clp does nothing well
This is very interesting thank you. I have often wondered about this. If copper fouling build up really is an issue, how do machine gun barrels survive extended use between cleanings? In a combat situation they may be required to fire hundreds or thousands of rounds in a very short time.
Machine gun barrels are a different application to a barrel on a rifle expected to maintain a higher level of accuracy. A machine gun produces a 'cone of fire' to saturate an area, whereas a rifled gun can, in competent hands, place a bullet in a specific area on a target. A great question though! Had me thinking!
It's not an issue. And machine gun barrels are made from the same metal and heat resistant plating as rifle barrels. Machine guns can be just as accurate in the right hands as a rifle. I know because I've seen it tested before. Machine guns are "inaccurate" simply due to the rate of fire and "climb" of the muzzle under sustained recoil.
"Copper Fouling" is an illusion created by solvent makers to clean nothing but your wallet. Don't buy into the hype.
I read a book written by a German soldier on the eastern front, in one chapter he describes shooting his MG42 to hold off the wave attacks from the Russians the whole night. Next day he counted the ammo boxes and switching through three barrels he realized he shot over 30000 rounds. Heat is a problem, copper really isn't.
@@GalvestonCountyMike Thanks for your comment. Agreed, it’s preferred that machine guns are desired to be relatively inaccurate to produce a spread of fire. In fact the early Bren guns produced by the British needed to be de-accuratised ( if that's a word) to enlarge their cone of fire as they were originally too accurate for their intended purpose. My question more relates to copper build up, in that if it is incremental, then machine gun barrels would surely quickly jam. This leads me to believe the view being espoused in this video that copper deposits actually smooth the bore rather than foul it. This would also explain why rifles seem to perform better at the range after one or two fouling shots have been fired.
@@GalvestonCountyMike I do not know what MG you are thinking about but the M60 in U.S. military service starting from 1957 WAS a rifled barrel machine gun. {That was my M.O.S. (Machine gunner) U.S.M.C.}. M60 Rifling was Right Hand Twist, Four lands, Pitch, 1 in 12 inches. Because it was a rifled barrel (instead of a smoothbore like a shotgun) we could get accurate shots with it {I Qualed "Expert" with the M60 (and the Mattel-16 also).
Thank you for this video! I’ve heard of some shooters talk about cleaning out copper, but I’m with you it’s actually a good thing for copper to season a new barrel. I work on getting carbon out, I never worry about a copper cleaning.
I bought a used savage 116 (pre acutriger) in .300 win mag
I shot a few boxes of ammo through to rifle by both sighting in a new scope, and just general target shooting.
One night, i pulled the bolt out, turned the rifle upside down, put a foam ear plug in the end of the barrel and filled the barrel with a penitrating oil called kroil
The next day, i pulled the plug and drained the oil into a paper cup. All sorts of copper came out. Several patches also came out with a ton of copper.
Now, did that copper effect accuracy? Not really sure, i never put the rifle in a vise to properly bench test it before or after. I can hit what i want to hit with the rifle, and thats all i really care about. All im saying is that copper DOES indeed build up, and it does it relitively quick.
Great video though. It seems to me that most shooters spend more time cleaning their guns than they do shooting them.
Thank you for not being afraid to speak the truth. I see so many videos where firearm enthusiasts speak wrongly on copper fouling . Many a barrel has been ruined by using the wrong cleaners and cleaning products by those who are obsessed with cleaning every bit of copper fouling from their firearms .
I met a shooter who said it took him 8 hours to properly clean his Colt Competition H Bar . He described in length his cleaning ritual. The one thing I'm sure of he was working on destroying a good rifles accuracy and barrel .
Finally, the excuse I've been looking for! I'm not neglecting my rifles, I'm curating copper!
Came across this video accidentally……I will comment I don’t agree with everything said, as I have experienced and corrected copper fouling in numerous firearms/barrels. I would offer the next time you are told the barrel is ‘shot-out’ or the rifle won’t group and scope/mount is OK, and/or worse, signs of pressure start appearing in the firearm; THINK.
This makes me think of Hodgdons new CFE223 powder. "Copper Fouling Eraser" it looks and performs pretty much exactly like H335, just with a bit slower burn rate. Granule size is effectively the same.
I think it's all illusion of choice.
The firearms market is saturated and companies are coming up with all these gimmicks to stay in business.
I bought a solvent for my shop a while back that claimed to "remove lead, copper, brass, and carbon fouling"
It smelled like straight concentrated cat urine.
Just opening the bottle fried my nose and make the shop reek to high heaven.
I set that stuff out in the chemical cabinet with the rest of the caustic stuff.
Now we use it as a degreaser prior to reblueing.
As for cleaning bores, honestly I rarely clean my rifle (I'm a gunsmith shame on me I guess) and it shoots like a charm. The trick is use good clean powders and wipe off the critical areas to prevent rust.
As for performance, I agree with what you said about the copper "smoothing" the nooks and crannies and improving accuracy.
My rifles always shoot the best about 100 rounds in after a cleaning.
Take care, God Bless
I think I will avoid the CFE and Enduron powders for the same reason as using a copper solvent. If the copper is good, then a powder that removes it is just a sales gimmick to sell more powder. Stands to reason.
@@cbsbass4142 honestly I think it's slightly modified H335 repackaged under a new label.
I was talking to a gunsmith yesterday about my 300 rum, I'm getting two bullets sub-moa and the third bullet is a flyer usually 2 inches or so to the left or the right.... This gunsmith is 50 something years old with 30 years experience, he brought up the voodoo that he seen copper fouling you exactly this to guns in the past and told me to clean the copper falling out of my gun.... Anybody have any thoughts???
Thank you for your knowledge and experience on this topic. Question for you: proponents of "copper fouling theory" often say the risks are enhanced when shooting monolithic copper bullets (e.g. Barnes TSX). Is your advice any different when shooting those types of bullets? Or is copper fouling not an issue regardless of bullet construction? Thanks again and God bless.
Those arguments are ridiculous. The bore contacts less than .004" on the perimeter of the bullet. Whether the copper is a thin jacket or solid though and through, it's the same material. Complete nonsense.
Lyndon, as a long time hand loader of Barnes 7mm 140 grain TTSX bullets, I can tell you that I’ve never had copper build up in either a Remington chrome-moly or Browning stainless steel barrel. But the dozen or so Barnes TTSX plastic boxes are sure handy as are their Varmint Grenade boxes.
In my 300 RUM I’ve ran 130 grain TTSX’s at over 3600 fps and still no accuracy loss or copper fouling after 50 rounds.
@@GunBlue490 you’re correct in my experience. I have several rifles that have never fired anything except Barnes all-copper bullets and I have never seen evidence of cooper fouling even after hundreds of rounds. Not telling anyone not to clean their gun- just saying I don’t believe copper fouling is a problem based on my experiences and the knowledge of experts who have fired far more rounds than I have
@@GunBlue490 You're video is nonsense. Copper fouling is real! Obviously until you have spent hours of arduous cleaning of a severly copper fouled barrel from copper monolithic bullets, will you understand that it indeed does have an effect on accuracy. Hence why I will never use those bullets again. 11 hours and hundreds of patches later.....I finally had a barrel that would give acceptable results again. This happened in less than 40 rounds of a "clean" barrel. I couldn't hit a paper plate at 100 yards. I couldn't believe the copper, upon carbon, upon copper, upon carbon buildup it had acquired. After the barrel was clean, the first 3 fouling shots were more accurate than the previous 20. Experience tells me copper fouling is no lie! And neither is carbon fouling!
The problem with monolithic bullets isn't necessarily the mono bullet. It's been demonstrated that firing regular jacketed bullets before firing monometal bullets will cause a loss of accuracy to the mono bullet that is rectified by removing the copper fouling. The reason is uncertain. Jim on Backfire TV YT channel has a video showing the test, which was prompted by Ron Spomer. Generally, I believe Gunblue is correct, but this is a noted exception.
I like your common sense and knowledge from experience. I fell for the copper fowling snake oil, but now will just clean with a carbon remover. 👍
Question for you, I've seen a fair amount of stuff on here about bore snakes being bad for your rifle bore, I've been using these for a very long time and can't see any harm being done, if you have some input to this is love to hear what you have to say ?
Hoppe's Bore Snake is essentially an evolution of the string bobs used for field cleaning of military rifles for decades. I don't know what came first, string bobs for clarinets or M1 Garands. They certainly can't harm a rifle barrel in the least. In the last few years, I've used Bore Snakes exclusively for 22 rimfires. They do a slick job with one simple pass. I recommend Bore Snakes as a field expedient for centerfire rifles, and they do a good job getting the chamber. Using one at the end of the day with a few drops of oil on the braid before heading home is a good rust preventative measure. However, they don't have the tight bearing pressure of a tight fitting patched jag to really get out the baked-in centerfire residue. Good product, but I'd still use a cleaning rod to remove all residue.
@@GunBlue490 My grandad used the string bob and "2x4" cleaning patch when he was in the military and dad used a cleaning rod, patch, and oil for his Winchester 88 and oil and a string tied to a sock for his Remington 1100.
Question: When you were measuring the chamber length with and without the bullet on your .270 reloading series, where did the extra .20 come from when seating the bullet? Thanks and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.
Pull-throughs have been around as long as breechloaders have. They're not going to do any harm you can't also do with a rod.
If you ever used a borescope you will KNOW that the copper does NOT smooth the surface of the barrel like drywall spackle. Its a nice visual, but it isnt based in truth. Also, copper corrodes rather quickly, go look at the Statue of Liberty and ask your self if you want that unevenly applied in your barrel.
Your drywall screw analogy was perfect. That’s exactly what I thought
Well, I am not going to challenge your metallurgy knowledge but back in the late 80s I started shooting the origonal Barnes-x bullet in my 300 Weatherby mag, 165gr bullet at 3400fps was lights out accurate for the first 70 or so rounds, then the accuracy started to open up more and more, I used hoppes and other carbon fouling solvent no change, thinking that maybe there was a nick in the muzzle, I took it to a gun Smith , he showed me the heavy COPPER fouling streaks in the last two to three inches of the barrel, he used some solvent called "Butches" i think it was? took three or four soakings bush and patch to remove it, went to the range and accuracy was back!
Then not too many years later Barnes realized they had to alter their design buy adding grooves in their bullets, it cut copper fouling way way down but I have still seen it over the last 30 some odd years. If I start to see the streaks in "some" rifles I shoot regular ( not often I might add) but I do from time to time, I get rid of it I make my own solvent which includes ammonia, that's the copper remover ingredient that all the over counter copper solvents have , I haven't ruined a barrel yet in 4 decades of trying. Sometimes there are exceptions to the rule I suppose, straight shootin.
I’ve learned a lot about barrel maintenance after having bought a bore scope. I do a lot of accuracy shooting out past 1k yards out to a mile and have found that even after cleaning with hopps and other mild solvents that it doesn’t touch baked in carbon after thousands of rounds. Groves start to fill in, rifling becomes less efficient and bullet stability is lost. It becomes carbon baked on top of copper on top of carbon. I used to be on the don’t clean until accuracy drops but now know that once a barrel has enough crap built up in it that it’s close to impossible to get it out. Everyone that’s into accuracy shooting should own a bore scope.
Been using Hoppe’s9 and WD40 on all my guns since the 60’s, I swear by both. I still have 95% of all the guns I or my father ever owned and there’s a spot of rust inside or outside any of them, that’s something living in Washington state a very moist environment. I run a patch or 2 of Hoppes down the bore followed by WD 40. If I’ve been out in a down pour I’ll drown the gun in WD40 then wipe it down. Even my guns from the 50’s, 60’s,and70’s look like new, some better than that I’ve refinished the stocks on.
Always a teacher. Wonderful lessons. Please keep educating the community.
What about lead fouling is that okay to leave in the same as copper I know lead is nice and slippery
Oh, no! That's a horse of a different color. Lead buildup is caused by improperly hard bullets, and/or improperly lubricated bullets. Bullets that are too soft for higher velocities will immediately leave deposits, and bullets that are too hard for lower velocities will not obturate tightly, and will allow hot gasses to pass by, melting lead. Poor lubrication will cause leading, no matter what. The slightest leading is ruinous to accuracy and in severe cases it becomes a dangerous bore obstruction. Properly made bullets for specific velocities will not cause leading, no matter how many are fired.
I recently purchased two new AR barrels from a highly regarded manufacturer. I’d also recently acquired a bore scope. I was disappointed to find my factory new barrels gleaming with copper “fouling” which led me to the mistaken conclusion that I’d been shipped 2 heavily used barrels. I can’t tell you how relieved I feel after watching this video. In retrospect, the coppery grooves in my barrels appeared glassy smooth!
Hmmm.... Your barrels should have been spotless from factory unless they're doing some test firing at the factory.
@@TerminalM193 Never bought a rifle that had a barrel that was not filthy from the factory...not necessarily copper, but just carbon I guess.
@@cbsbass4142 Were they actually filthy though? I've purchased many barrels and uppers in my life and I've not once had a filthy barrel sent to me. They have most certainly had a layer of factory grease and/or the signs showing that maybe 1 - 3 rounds were specifically test fired through the barrel but that's it.... With my BCM & both of my SOLGW uppers were factory test fired and sent the bullet casings with the purchase as proof. Every new barrel I get will get 1 dry patch run, then 1 wet patch with a mild degreaser which is then followed by another dry patch and then the barrel is good to go.... Even this method is a bit overkill. I've had friends and coworkers not do a thing to their new barrels other than immediately put 200-300 rounds through it and they be perfectly fine.
Most new barrels I've gotten usually had a light layer of grease or oil in them with just a hint of carbon or a little dust in them. Don't have a bore scope but when I'd looked through them in front of a bright light source, most appeared clean. I have had 1 or 2 that were dry when I got them, probably evaporation I'm guessing.
I generally will do a single pass with a brush out of a phobia for metal particle from machining followed up by a few oil saturated patches till they come out clean, then a single dry patch which I'll skip if I'm going to store it for awhile before shooting it.
It don't take much to care for them, just keep them oiled to protect from rust is all really.
@@TerminalM193 I believe that's a common practice and I appreciate them testing each barrel.
Had an old Winchester m1895 with a poor looking bore. Shot 6” at 100 yds. I cleaned the bore with bore cleaners until the cloth came out clean. It still shot poorly. I used acid and the cloths came out black and green for several passes changing the cloth. Then I shot it again and got 3” group 😊 After that I just normally clean the bore
Hey Blue, do you go as far as to not use a bore brush at all? I've heard some people say they'll only pull a few patches covered in carbon-solvent, then Rem Oil, etc until it's totally clean. I've been going the middle-ground and using nylon bore brushes with mild solvents, then an oiled patch, then dry patches until they come out clean/dry. Seems to work okay for me, but I'm not a professional marksman or anything so I guess I don't know what I don't know... Brass brush, I assume, is for a rare use when heavy carbon fouling is present, or are they safe to use every cleaning?
I wonder what it is about shooting lead core ammo then monolithic copper. I didnt believe this "myth" until i tested it. As ive always used lead core to get on paper then copper to zero for the deer/bear season. Well backfiretv and ron spomer talked about issues switching between bullet types and found that if you shoot both without cleaning your accuracy can be all over. You have to have a very clean bore(no carbon no copper residue) then accuracy usung just the monolthics goes back to good groups. I couldnt keep my copper under 2" in my 30-06 figured it just didnt like them. Did a very good cleaning nothing crazy, and went and sighted in using only the barnes vortex and 1.5" 3shot grouping consistently with a consistent 1/2" 2 shot group. Its nothing crazy but the rifle has never shot copper that well. Lead core yes
I'm amazed at the amount of things I've learned from watching your videos.
So many things that I thought were fact turn out to be false and at my age it is hard to believe how long these falsehoods were believed and accepted.
Thank you Sir for the simple and easy to understand logic that you present in your talks. I find your videos fascinating and helpful.
I've always used Hoppes #9 but the mineral oil is a new one for me. So sensible.
Transfer that same logical deduction to history, everything the government has done and current affairs and you'll be even more amazed.. tho you might want to tie a rope around your waste before you start down the rabbit holes, they're pretty deep and dark.
I got an m1 garand from the CMP. boar looks good but had some discoloration. Iran kroil rust removing spray penetrant through it with the bronze brush. did some patches got all that black crap and it dissolved all of the carbon. 1955 barrel on a 1944 gun. it shoots much better than I do. kroil. you can get it at Napa it's made for penetrating and busting nuts and bolts. it doesn't hurt if you get it sprayed in your eye accidentally like I've done stupidly as a mechanic.