Three Ways to Find the Lands!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 พ.ค. 2024
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Trying to find the Lands? This video will demonstrate what the lands are show three ways to find them.
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![[Don't Try This] Pushing the 308 Win to 300 Win Mag (Bat Machine, Alpha Munitions)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uXkmcpk7Brc/mqdefault.jpg)
ONE CRITICAL THING WITH THE LOCTITE.
you need to de-prime the brass! If not, the air inside the case will push out the loctite into the chamber.
dont ask me how i know this..
I haven' tried this method but was thinking the same. We use those anaerobic adhesives on a great many things in my trade and some of them are no joke. Since they put this to the masses they should have spent much more time on it and emphasized which ones to use and exactly how to do it with no fudge room.
@@indydurtdigger2867 yeah it's a mess to remove, as its like lacquer when dried. Can't be easily solved by chems either.
Thex
@@jmkhenka nail varnish remover eats loctite threadlocker
@@pj4433 Some of them yes. Others are chem resistant if not outright insoluble.
I started reloading in the early 60’s before oal comparators, with all my knowledge coming from reloading books and magazines, totally absorbed into shooting and reloading. Early on, I started trying multiple methods, some discussed here, but I found that if you just took whatever bullet you were going to use, drop it down the bore and just tap it lightly to jam the lands, I took a wooden dowel, advanced down the muzzle till it touched the bullet, then make a mark on the dowel with a sharp pencil at muzzle, then push bullet out of the barrel with the dowel, remove bullet, close the bolt , push dowel till it is up against bolt face, then remove dowel. Measuring the distance with my trusty Craftsman dial caliper precisely gives me my max coal for that particular bullet. I would then and now, especially it seems with all Berger bullets, they do better with up to .080 of jump. This easy method has always worked for me. I would like to have one of those nice Delrin rods though. Would seem to be perfect to use for same method.
I like your method!
Great method. To me its finding the accurate seating depth, not the lands. I let the target tell me where to seat the bullet when working up a load. I think many of them have a good sized jump. Or not. lol
My method is actually the last one that Travis showed. The one where you let the lands push bullet in. But it is neck tension dependent. I also put die wax in bullet ogive to prevent it from sticking in the lands. The method of seating bullet deeper and deeper until bolt closes is the Alex Wheeler method. As you said, there are a tons of ways to measure this.
Multiple ways to remove outer layer from feline. 😁
Nice! I was surprised at how consistent this method was.
Not a comment for Erik (he clearly knows what he is doing), but a comment on his process. I suspect the benefits of either the second (loctite) or third (Erik Cortina... or similar Alex Wheeler method) is consistency/repeatability in that in the second and third, it is a combination of the camming action of the bolt plus whatever you neck tension is. If you are good at consistent neck tension, then you should get repeatable results. For the first, when using the rod to push the bullet in, that level of force is variable from one person to another and maybe even from one test to another from the same person. I personally use the Alex Wheeler method and have found it to be very repeatable while the rod method is not. The downside of the Wheeler method is you have to do things like remove the extractor, etc. from the bolt because the ONLY force you want to feel is that of the bullet touching, barely touching or not touching the lands as you close the bolt (and not compressing an extractor spring for example). It also requires a bolt that closes easily/smoothly. Lastly, I can imagine using the bolt to seat the bullet vs. the Alex Wheeler method maybe creating different measurements because using the bolt to seat the bullet, is pushing you slightly into the lands, while the Wheeler method may allow you to measure where the lands are just touching. I should probably give Erik's method a try as it might be easier to do in the long run.
Erik's method is what I've been using for the past 10yrs.
For this method, do you use form sized brass or re-sized brass ?
And the feline is much maligned. Thank YOU for sharing! I used my lighter to smoke the bullet!
Regarding the locktite method. I always pop the primer out. This allows air to escape out of the back of the case when the bullet is seated in the lands. Stops loctite from seeping out of the case neck into the chamber of the rifle.
Cheap trick: Glue the bullet in the casing, load it before the glue has dried, wait for it to dry, pull out. Put it in bullet seating dye, adjust the dye until you feel resistance.
When using the OAL gauge, try using this with the rifle in a vertical position. What this does by having the muzzle pointing upwards, you can lightly lift the bullet to the contact point and not jam the bullet into the lands. If your bullet is sticking into the lands, you really have no idea how deep that is going.
So cool to see a actual cutaway while you guys explain what’s going on. That definitely makes it clear what every little step on the print is for!
On my race pistol got a neat cutaway realy quick. Once.neet to see how chamber reamer worked well.
Going deeper when groups got bad . Nothing loose now . go
Deeper.got very good groups. Do em all long now. This sport got to be an " arms race"
Loctite method seems fine. You can then use a sharpie to write the length right on the case, and keep the whole thing as a reference forever. Ideal. Thanks for bringing this to us.
Exactly what I done, except I just used some regular glue instead of loctite, but then all the info is on the case
Why not just right it down in your reload book?
@@John_Redcorn_ Ah! What a treasure trove I'd have if I could have every note and slip of paper I ever wrote something on (and remembered what the hell it meant). But I don't. "Writing things down" is a great idea -- that VERY often doesn't amount to much, lol.
@@GetMeThere1 well thats why they make reload journals with places to write these things down. Lol 😂
@@John_Redcorn_ LOL. I'm left to wonder just WTF is wrong with you. I gave my idea of how I'd like to do something, and you feel a need to come along to say "No. You should do this instead." Not with the claim of an insight into a better way, and therefore that your way is better, but (seemingly) just to say "Do it my way instead of your way." Good luck with your fucking journal -- perhaps one day you'll have the urge to stick it up your ass! As for me, I prefer a direct object clearly on display (or put in a small drawer specifically for such types of objects) rather than a written DESCRIPTION of the same object, which, to be always available would have to be indexed and catalogued in such a way that the information can be retrieved.
Love using the last method that Travis showed. Very simple and works great. Regardless of what method is used - CONSISTANCY is the most important factor - choose a method and stick with it.
I’ve used a brass rod and two locking collars. You close the bolt and insert the rod to the bolt face and set a collar at the barrel end. Then insert a bullet and use a pencil or rod to hold pressure on the bullet from the action end. Insert the rod to the bullet tip and set another collar. Measure between them and you have your jam. But Eric’s method is much simpler.
....and remember that we just do this once to get the measurements to use to adjust seating depth.🤙
I like this way. I have tried the modified case but didn’t really like it so I just got this one do come up the the same theory as yours. “Frankford Arsenal Cartridge Overall Length Gage”. I like your idea with brass rod and lock rings. I’ll have to find your components and check it out.
For the last 30 years I’ve used an empty case and superglue instead of Loctite
For 40 years I have held an unloaded case above a candle to get a good sooty effect. Close the bolt gently, extract, and see if you are touching the lands, and by how much. Seat bullet slightly deeper and repeat the process. When the bolt closes easily and there is only the lightest mark of the lands, you know you are good to go to calculate further seating depth. This may be too inaccurate for the most exacting bench-rest shooters, but it gives me one-hole groups from my .222 Rem. I also prefer to headspace using the bolt rather than the shoulder of the cartridge.
One issue with using the close the bolt method is that the seating depth might be increased by the pressure of the bolt. Furthermore, then when the bolt is retracted the bullet might ease out slightly from the case. It would seem the loktite method provides a good maintain of the bullet in the case. But I cringe at any red loktite in my chamber!
EXCELLENT video - that cutaway shows with complete clarity how a cartridge and bullet sit in the chamber with the tolerances that reloaders talk about. As a raw beginner, that first 4 minutes utterly crystallised so much that I've been trying to understand from books. Many Thanks from the UK.
Yes, it was awesome
I use the locktite method, however instead of using locktite I use a paper patch around base of bullet to keep it snug in the neck.
I use the seating die and a resized empty unprimed case. In increments bullet seating further out until it does not chamber and I get rifling/lands marks on the bullet or the opposite and seating further down until it does chamber and no marks are visible but this takes a number of new unmarked bullets. Then I back it off to my desired COL. As stated, bullet type makes a big difference and results are based on each bullet type. I don't get stuck bullets in the lands this way since the bullet is seated. I only do it to know my chamber size. I do not chase the lands like I used to. Some rifles do not like it close to the lands while others do so I shoot different COL loads until I find the "sweet" chamber spot or accuracy node and that sweet spot will change between types of bullets and over time throat erosion. I have a .223 chamber that absolutely hates bullets close to the lands for that short jump. It likes a long jump to hit its best accuracy. Same for a .22-250 chamber.
Without a wordy description, I use the method described in the Speer manual I got back in 1989 when my reloading journey began. I have only modified It slightly over the years but didn’t change the overall method it works for me.
Using the OAL gauge, you're pushing the bullet into the lands, whereas with the other methods, you're not. That is why you're seeing a difference. I've learned to use the gauge and NOT push so hard. Push until you meet resistance then release and then lock the push bar in place. I find that you will see the same kind of measurements as the locktite method.
Yes. Erik Cortina talks about the difference between finding the lands and what he calls the “jam method”.
That's why I want to find my O.A.L. with a fire formed case and resized with just enough neck tension to hold the projectile in place so I'm not jamming it into the lands, just touching. But at the same time I'm not putting to little neck tension so that when I hit it with calipers, it doesn't push the bullet inside the case. I do that 3 times and measure 3 times. If the measurements are the same or pretty close +/- .001 I know I'm good. If the measurements are off, then I know the neck tension is to tight because If the first measurement is 3.290" and the next is 3.330 that means the lands are grabbing the bullet....The bullet shape could be off that much BUT I doubt it.
You can also use some graphite dry lube on the part of the bullet that makes contact with the lands (Ogive) to help prevent the bullet from sticking in your bore.
@@semperfi6288 don’t know why but I like that idea better than case lube
Gavin, that's the first and best visual demonstration I've seen on this subject. I really liked it, you guys. Maybe another video on where factory ammo is set and the difference of the precise measurement and effects of the differences on performance and barrel ?
I agree with Eriks method and have used it for some 40+ years, I do however use a modified version of that for super super exact loadings, What I do for those is I use my normal push back method and add to it by blackening the bullet with a sharpie or carbon black. I insert the test cartridge, close the bolt and note the land marks on the bullet after it has been pushed back. I then repeat 3 x and note the lengths....depending on the marks of the lands on the bullet will let u judge on whether or not your 3 bullets are seating on the lands consistently and with the same force. Always always always measure your length consistencies exactly like you showed in the video, using the apex of the bullet ogive. Beginning shooters might want to measure from the bullet tip but NEVER NEVER do it as tip profiles in the same batch of bullets can vary significantly, the ogive or slope profiles never changes at least in the same lot of bullets......Use a diffrent lot......start all over..... Just saying !!!!!!!
Great information for reloaders, even if we are not building a rifle or taking our reloading to that degree. Understanding this and seeing it really helps to understand how everything really works together for accuracy!
It's no wonder you were reading longer with the Hornady gauge! If you read the instructions:
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“We recommend using no more than 3 or 4 lbs. pressure on the bullet adjustment rod (about that of a light trigger pull). Then, gently tap the bullet adjustment rod with your index finger to ensure the bullet is in light contact with the lands. The most preferred method is to use the bullet adjustment rod in one hand and a wooden dowel inserted through the muzzle in the other hand, “sandwiching” the bullet. This allows a positive feel as the bullet contacts and releases from the rifling. Remember to use the same pressure or “tapping technique” on the bullet adjustment rod each time you use the tool. Keep in mind that you can “drive” the bullet into the lands as much as .025" by using excessive pressure or a “heavy-handed” approach. The key is to find a relatively light, yet positive “touch point” of the bullet’s ogive with the origin of the rifling. It is from this “touch point” that adjustments can be made in bullet seating depth.”
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In the video, you could see you pushing so hard you were flexing the rod! Probably using 10lb or more!
For the modified case, although I have made my own, you can use the Hornady ones with just as much accuracy - simply measure the difference with a headspace comparator.
Good info. I've had differences of far more than the .025" mentioned...It likely could depend on caliber & the lengths involved. I've had .338 Lapua 300 grain Scenar give a difference of over .200" between the point it can be first felt, vs pushing until it stops (not pounding in with sledge-hammer). I jam a couple in and take measurements just to give a sense to ensure that what I feel is the actual lands, and not resistance in the tool. I've had some bullets that slide more easily than others. Berger really seem to have a hard time moving in the modified case, which makes getting a "touch point" almost impossible. The rod can also give some resistance and I've seen some suggest to sand it down a bit.
I use the bolt to seat the bullet into the lands.
Reason, when i started loading now over 70 years ago, things like comparators didnt exist.
But matches for blackening the bullet did.
I used to sharpie mark the ogive and look for land marks on the bullet. I've since been using the Hornady OAL gauge and I find the OAL gauge much easier and more accurate on my .223 and .308.
I use a cleaning rod with a jag that's filed smooth at the end. On the rod, I placed two nylon bushings. With the bolt closed, I run the rod to the bolt face and the two bushings to the muzzle end. I then put a bullet in the chamber and push it forward until it touches the lands. Holding the bullet in place, I run the cleaning rod until it touches the tip of the bullet and position the second bushing closest to the muzzle against the muzzle end. Measure the length from the beginning of one bushing to end of second one. The OAL from the bolt face to the lands is the measured length minus the total length of the two bushings.
Gavin I do two things. I use a fire formed case. Next I take out the firing pin and the extractor out of the bolt. Then I put the case and bolt in the gun. If the bolt does not fall closed freely closed I will bump the shoulder of the case .0005 how ever many times it takes until the bolt falls closed. When that part is done the most free clearance you will have with the case is .00045. Then I start the same prosses over with the bullet. I will start with a measurement using the Hornaday gauge. Then I put the case and bullet in the gun. If the bolt does not fall closed then I will seat the bullet by .002 to .003 at a time. You will know when your about perfect. The bolt will start to fall half way then 2/3. At this point I go to .0005 seating change. When the bolt falls closed you will never be more than .00045 off the lands for that bullet batch #. The only reason for doing this is to know that exact length the bullet ogive touches the lands. I've been shooting bench from 1968 to know. The truth of the matter is the way you showed it the video works the same as I've done. Now matter how you find the lands we all start seating bullets + or - from the measurement we both got from our method we used to find the node the gun shoots at. I will say one thing. I made a tool using a seating die plunge and a dial indicator and comp to check ogive to tip of bullet where the plunger sits. I then write this down and check any other bullet I choose. Using math any other bullet I use I will know where to seat the bullet to start making up a new load just off the lands. I love your work keep it up. I built my first rifle in 1978 22PPC. One other thing, the tool I made and the seating die I use for any give caliber I had reamers made to redo there inside where the bullet hit so they are exactly the same. Good luck Rick D.
Dear Richard, I think you may have the decimal point in the wrong place. Also it is not poss to measure that accurately with a calliper , 0.0005 i.e. Half a thousandth at real best. Regards
@@redhunterknives6675 My dies are able to bump a half thousandth at a time or .0005 my first bump on a fire formed brass is .0015. The point was find just off the lands. If your bolt does not fall closed by it self (no firing pin or extractor) after you know the shoulder of case is not at fault, then your bullet is still touching the lands. PS .0005 is a half thousandth. All my chambers In my bench guns are custom. I use Dave Manson reamers that I have ground to my specs. .0005 +.0005= .001 Shoot tight groups.
Also...for those considering the Hornady gauge, if you send Hornady two fired unsized cases, they will modify your case and send it back to you for $15. I got mine back in about two weeks.
It's so easy to make your own.
Screw Hornady!
Where is the link for the ‘special’ case head tap he mentioned ?
@@ivymike3459 The tap is 5/16-36tpi - You can get them from McMaster-Carr and probably other places that sell machinist tooling. You will likely not find it at the local hardware store.
Not if you live outside of the USA. Service is only available to USA residents. If you live elsewhere you have to make your own.
For those using the Hornady/Stoney Point gauge method it's great if you can drill and tap a spent case from your own gun as the gauge. If all you have is the one supplied by Hornady then just measure the difference in headspace between a spent case from your own gun (primer removed), and their gauge. Account for the difference with the Hornady case measurement.
I’ve used the sharpie method for several decades, but bought hornady’s oal gauge 3-4 years back. I made my own dummy cases (fired in my chambers) and bored and tapped on my lathe. I use a hardwood dowel in conjunction with the gauge to push the bullet back and forth to get a good feel for the contact of the bullet and the lands.
I've used Travis' method for years. I recently picked up the Hornady tool and haven't quite tested it like you guys but it's interesting to see that the bullet can be pushed further in and logically that makes sense. Thanks for the videos guys!
Same method I have used for many decades!! Works flawlessly!! Good comment. 👍👍
When I was getting started I would lightly tap a fired case neck on the bench it would provide enough resistance to let the bullet slide into the lands but also allow it to come out. I would do it 3 times to ensure consistency.
The third method seems the easiest and fastest to do. just load a case with a loose bullet in the chamber and close the bolt. The great thing I can see about this one is that I could quickly do it as I am setting up my press for a loading session for a whole batch of a particular bullet. Then when you change to a different bullet type, quickly do the same
Great vid guys, you saved me $80.
Appreciated from Canada 🇨🇦.
You guys make a good team, very enjoyable and educational. Thank you for sharing the video and please keep up the good work !
I always used the modified case that Hornady sales and their OAL tool until I seen the video on how Eric Cortina's does it. He even says he lubes the bullet with sizing die wax to help keep the bullet from sticking and it works really good with bolt action rifles. I still use the Hornady modified case method when I'm working up a load on AR15s. Great video as always keepem coming guys!!!
Thanks for the ongoing videos. Great stuff. I will say I have driven myself crazy trying to get consistent readings with the OAL gauge. (Especially true with VLD bullets.) TINY variances in pressure on the push rod change the distance to the lands a fair bit. It’s a hassle to remove the firing pin and ejector button (Wheeler method) or Barrel for the fingernail lift method (Mark Gordon method, explained in the Precision Rifle Blog), but I have found these methods very consistent.
Excellent video Gavin and Travis. I use the Alex Wheeler method for bullet seating and the Erik Cortina method for finding head space and setting up my FL sizing dies.
I originally used the last method but got tired of having bullets stuck in the barrel and starting over.. then i used the hornady gauge method.. from now on i will start using the loctite method. I like the idea of having a hard copy of each specific bullet/chamber combo i reload for. Going to loctite it in then laser engrave the bullet/rifle combo on the case! Thanks gavin
I use a partially sized case, I only size about 1/16 - 1/8 inch of the case mouth. This way the bullet slides into case a bit easier so the bullet is less apt to stick into the rifling.
My cast bullet loads take a bit more care on the neck tension. I'll repeat this check several times to average out the measurement, then set a bullet a bit long then using a sharpie on the bullet and progressively seat deeper till I find a length to just mark the place that the bullet fully seals to the throat.
Very Good Information. I love the third method (that I have always used) since it requires no special devices or tools and it is easy IF you are shooting different weights, lengths and ogive geometry, Use a once-fired case, tension the neck ONLY and let the lands seat the bullet. Important that you are careful that the land tension does not pull the bullet out of seating during the extraction of the test cartridge. Perform this a few times and look for consistency. I love watching your knowledge evolve Gavin; its evident form early the early vids to the latest. Shoot on!
First thought, do yourself a favor and use the Accuracy One seating depth comparator. It measures between the case shoulder and bullet ogive. So much more precise and quicker than the CBTO method/tool. Saves you on the math too.
Hornady OAL is great and is best if you use a fired case with the shoulder bumped .001" so it's sure to chamber smoothly and headspace off of the shoulder. If you don't size (ever so slightly) the body of the case could stop the shell from fully reaching the shoulder and thus giving false readings.
You can use the Hornady virgin case for this but there will be some math and corrections needed to get accurate numbers. Case base to shoulder lengths on a fired case need to be noted so that corrections can be made to the base to shoulder length of the virgin case. This "difference" needs to either be added to or subtracted from the CBTO measurement you get to the lands with the virgin case. Again, works fine but there's math you have to be aware of. Throw a virgin, belted magnum case gauge in the mix and it will not get true readings, you can't. That's why it's best to use a fired, slightly sized case with this method.
Here's the method I use now and have found to be the most precise and consistent:
Use a fired, very slightly sized case and polish the outside with steel wool. I don't want it sticky in the chamber at all. Seat a bullet a little longer than it needs and lightly push the case into the chamber by finger. It should "stick" because the bullet is in the lands. You'll need a cleaning rod to push it back out. Now, seat your bullet in the die shorter until it will not stick anymore. You want to find the spot where it is not sticking but .001" longer will. When you go to push the cartridge out with the rod, it will come with no resistance. This is a true measurement of no jump nor jam. I can feel a difference in .0005" difference in seating on the cleaning rod when you get to the right spot.
I used to use the hornady tool with modified cases, but swapped over to the wheeler method a couple years ago. Just seemed the most consistent.
Also amazing how many people I have seen with the hornday gauge backwards on the caliper. Not difficult to put the screw in the right side so the gauge is centered to the caliper blade.
This is what I do and I shoot short range benchrest and moving a bullet .003 into or out of the lands is critical!
i have used the last method for years but i use a sinclair hex nut style comparator to measure from the ogive. Works very well. I repeat the process about 10-15 times to make sure i get an accurate reading. Has produced a many a good load both for hunting and long range taget.
Minimizing jump/finding the lands is one of the more persistent myths (IMO). I was a full on adherent until reading an article back in 2016 that indicated that not all bullets, particularly the newer VLD/ELD designs, responded well to that approach and actually gave better results with more jump. Having acquired a megnetospeed to fine tune my 6.5/RPR loads (never really trusted my Chrony), I set up a test with my, to that point, most accurate load.
The change I made was to set the COAL at the 'book' value in the loading manual using Hornady's ELD-M bullet. I then setup of 5 shot loads of incremental COAL increase/Decrease from that point of .001 changes until the COAL maxed out "at the Lands" limit I had previously established with a dummy round.
What I found was that the RPR/ELD-M had a very specific 'range' that gave best SD/ES and accuracy and it was NOT anywhere close to the lands. It was a range of approx .003" around the book COAL which was astonishing to me have 'grown' up reloading for over 35 years at that point, believing that best accuracy was ALWAYS found seating the bullet out close to the lands.
This did not change when my barrel went past its 'speed bump' that most go through around 300 rounds or so. Like any load customization, what your particular rifle likes is going to be very individual, so really anyone's 'best load' is pretty much an ancedotal one off for that rifle/component combination. But before anyone goes all in on the "get as close to the lands as you can" paradigm, test your rifle with a good chronogrpah like the Magnetospeed or Labradar and spend some time testing various COAL setups. You might be surprised by what you find.
IMO - YMMV
Hey guys, good video, however, Eric uses the bolt drop you mentioned to set 2 thou shoulder bump in a full length sizing die NOT to find jam
That's not the way I understood his video, I think he sizes his brass the same way he always does, with. 002 bump but sans powder and primer, that way its consistent.
How could the bolt bump the lands back at all?
And yes, sans is a word....lol.... look it up but you may already know, good luck in your shooting!
My method is the last one shown right down to the sharpie or black soot to mark the projectile. Bullet brand and model gets written down in my note book along with OAL for ease of setting up seating die the next time I use that particular projectile. I use this for all of my rifles and all of my single shot handguns chambered in rifle calibers....very repeatable and easy to do without the need for additional tooling. Will be teaching this to a new shooter next week when he brings his .308 win and loading gear to me for his first time experiencing the joys of handloading good ammunition.
Thank you for the AWESOME VIDEO! so much information and love the cutout model! Makes things very clear with a visual example to see.
Now that was an AWESOME Video ... I just learned a couple more tricks. Thanks Gavin 👍👊
I use a very similar process as the 3rd one he showed. The only difference is I take a very thin Emery cutting wheel and cut the neck to relieve some of the tension from the size case.
I use the same as you... It's very simple and easy to do. But I usually paint the bullet with a white board pen, just to see if the bullet was pushed out when you extract the case!
I think on the last method where you have a seated bullet long and then close the bolt on it you need to make sure that you don't have a lot of neck tension.
When you’re using the bolt to “jam” it into the lands, coat the bullet with case lube or wax, and the bullet shouldn’t get stuck.
The Eric Cortina method is actually shown on a TH-cam video long ago. Look up Alex wheeler's video and watch it. There's things that you need to do before doing the bolt drop test. Things like removing you ejector and firing pin.
This method is absolutely the best for determining the exact moment that the bullet comes in contact with the lands.
However Eric Cortina did show perhaps a better method , where he doesn't even know where the lands are in relationship to the bullet that I find is either better, or equally useful. You cant look up that video from Eric on TH-cam as well under the title Stop chasing the lands.
I've used multiple different methods, and use a portion of each for my own reloading practices. I work off of the thought that you can never have to much information. Keeping track of multiple measurements allows you to build empirical data that helps over time to make better informed decisions based on measurements
The shoulder of a case fired from the rifle will come to rest at that exact spot in the barrel. I don't have to have any special tools to perform the loc-tite method! I don't have to take my bolt apart! Just push the style bullet I want to load in, it will set up and viola! Subtract the amount I want that bullet off the rifling, test several depth to find the sweet spot. Write it down for that bullet.
EXCELLENT VIDEO GUYS!!!
You use a slip case. Take a Dremel tool and cut a vertical slit down to the shoulder. Debur the inside of the neck. Now you can put bullets into the slip case, load it, and the lands will push them farther in, and you can pull the case out with the bullet and know the OAL where the bullet touches the lands.
I use the OAL method with their factory cases. My problem with that tool is you never get the same reading twice so I take 5 reading and take the average of the closes setting.
I'm going to try the Locktite method as that seems like it would be very accurate.
Would like to have seen you take multiple reading of each type to see if you get the same reading (or close) every time.
Same, I always take 5 readings with it as well, I find the first one or two are off and then the rest are pretty consistent, I usually blame myself tbh
same. No confidence in the OAL. Hopefully, this demo will make me more comfortable with the OAL.
I use the oal and get the same reading. My problem is when I seat my bullet with my die i keep getting different lengths I'm using match dies everything is tight and secure. Any thoughts?
@@jeremydunn5903 call the die manufacturer and ask how to properly use it. They should have a support line.
Get it from them rather than.. " um, ah " suggestions. This shit ain't funny when things go wrong.
@@jeremydunn5903 Also, if you have a seating die insert, make sure it's the correct one.
TIP: for the Hornady bullet comparator; I just measured 3 different 223 bullets of different weights and manufacturers and found a total of CBTO variance of some .030. All bullets must have identical O'Gives.
Then I removed the plastic plunger and filed down the rounded end into a more pointed end and remeasured a 3 bullets again @ 8 each and found the new total variance of the same bullets to be .010. In two of the bullets the CBTO variance was less than 5%. Very accurate now.
My conclusion is the bullet bases are not 100% perpendicular to the concentricity of the bullet and the plastic plunger end is too large to get an accurate reading on a small point from the base of the bullets.
This was all done in a brand-new JC Custom barrel just purchased and not installed.
I wish Hornady would install a smaller metal pointed end on their plunger for a little extra money.
I take a fired case and neck size only. I then use a dremel with a cut off wheel and cut two slots from the case mouth to the shoulder in a straight line with the cartridge and 180 degees from each other. Then deburr the slots. This allows the bullet to be pushed in when chambering. The bullet touches the lands and the tension holds the bullet enough to remove cartridge and check seating depth. Works well and can be used with any bullet over and over again
Super clear video, thanks fellas. I've been using the hornady OAL gauge, because I have one. I'll definitly be trying the other methods for comparison
Very impressed, my friend. An inspiration to me to strive to excel and to encourage others to do the same. May you have great success!
I haven't used the lock-tite method but that one seems to be very useful in that you could do so for multiple bullets and also keep them for future reference. Like a comparison as the rifel ages and wears.
Can you measure a new unfired round to use as a template or standard measure like doing the lock tite
Morning fellas. Have to say this video is a great explanation of the subject matter. Thanks for the hard work, really well done.
Sized case, black sharpie marked bullet to show if there's any pull upon ejection.
I use the Hornady case gauge measurement system. Another system I have seen is using a Dremel and cutting a groove in a fired case neck, neck sizing, and then seating the bullet without a ejector using the bolt.
Very education. Thanks guys. Much appreciated.
I also use the 3ed method, but I very lightly tighten up the very end of the neck with my die set so the bullet won't stick in the barrel, I also use a black marker to see the rifling. 👍
Just starting to get into hand loading and it is easy to get lost in the weeds… This video is. very helpful. How do you approach initial cartridge length measurements for a new system? Imagine new rifle, brass, etc… for the initial firing of new brass, the recommended approach is to seat the bullets at the lands… I understand that it is critical to get a measurement from the bolt face to the lands which the gauge method cannot provide. The difference between the gauge measurement and the bolt methods implies extra headspace even on a fired case… it has been mentioned elsewhere that it can take more than a single firing for a case to fully expand to the chamber dimension and there should be some spring back expected as well. Keep up the great work!
Excellent and as a new Loader I have watch several videos and never really obtained a total grasp till this one. Thanks Guys…
I was just trying to figure out how to do this. Thank you Gavintoobbe!!!
I've been using the Cortina method for a while then got told to use an AOL gauge so bought one and found it to inconsistent so went back to the Cortina method as it was just way more consistent.
Good show. Thanks. Years ago I did the black marker routine.
The cut away barrel was a excellent teaching aid ,everything changes for a change in Bullet manufactures even given the same bullet weight ,Berger verses Sierra or Hornady I wish you would have mentioned that
I also used the last method with a sharpie as well as the OAL gauge. I found over the years that the sharpie method is just a good and it is easier.
Nice 1970’s paneling!
The Sinclair tool is great also, I use that because you don’t need the custom cases like the Hornady.
I've never checked... I have only ever used the manual data... I'm gonna give it a try for sure!!! Hopefully I'll get better rounds quickly.. using my saved data over the course of a long trial and error period and checking the lands this way(method 3 most likely) I'll get everything tuned in...
The first time I used the "get it stuck in the lands" method. I had to mortar the round out about seven times. Now, I have the OAL gauge from Hornady. I use my rifles for hunting. MOA or less is fine by me.
I use the AOL gauge method. I am reasonably new to all of this & still learning.
Awesome video. I wanted to save some money for projectiles and powder so I took a case and instead of a full resize I just gave it enough to hold on to the projectile. Not too tight, but not enough to pull out. Paint with a sharpie and push it in and lock it down. I ran it multiple times to verify the bullet wasn’t pulling back out as I have had that happen in early stages. But just like you guys said pick a method and stick with it because you can get varying numbers different ways.
Biggest thjng is making sure when you bring the dummy round back out, the rifling hasn’t pulled the bullet out. Sharpy helps you see that!
This is such a great video
So well done. The cut away of the chamber is priceless. This is the only channel you can see this very special content. This video is a game changer
I use the Hornady gage but I don’t push it in. Buy hand I gently turn the barrel down so it’s straight down then let the rod down easy that way gravity is the only push
I have a sacrificial case for each caliber which I cut petals into the neck. I can easily tension a bullet enough so it will just contact the lands but be held enough to keep it in when extracted.
Well done sirs. I get really "into it" when I reload. Great video!
Been using the OAL gauges and have always done it the exact same way every time so I'm hopefully consistent there. However a bullet specific dummy set up to the lands would be a time saver and is clearly accurate as shown. Might have to dig out the red loktite
I’ll be using the Loctite retaining compound or the 290 adhesive. If you use the 290, BEWARE! It’s a wicking adhesive, use a very small amount smeared IN the case. If it leaks out it’ll glue the case and bullet in place. Once you get them out, there will be a hardened film adhered in your chamber.
I've found Erik Cortina's videos on "Chasing the lands is stupid" to be very helpful..
Great video! Awesome visual!
Really appreciate the content, good information
Very enlightening. Well done. One comment: (at 2:58 timestamp) It was stated that the ogive is being compressed. It. Is VERY difficult (darn near impossible) to compress metal. Metal is actually being moved (i.e., making burrs in the bullet) by contact with the rifling. This point may seem trivial to some, and is often misunderstood by laymen.
I was shown to use the OAL gauge and the rod down the barrel together, so you push the case into the chamber, then using both rods "feel" for the lands with as little force as possible. When you have it lock the OAL and remove. Do this 3 times and compare results.
Seems to work fine.
Cracking video lads.
The risk with using the bolt to 'press' the bullet into the lands is that when you lift/retract the bolt you may pull the bullet back out of the case a little (if it is snug in the lands) this would gove a false reading and you would never know it had happened.
If you colour the 'whole' of the bullet with a sharpie pen, "then' carry out the bolt press method, not only will you get lands markings, but you will also see any bullet extraction that may occur as there would be a clean ring just above the neck where the bullet had been dragged back out of the case a little.
Also, as somebody mentions below, a tiny smear of case lube on the ogive may be a good idea.
You should went on and showed us how to take those measurements and adjusted the seating die.
Or; you can just drop your chosen projectile into the breach and tap it very gently until it sticks in the lands. Then, take a cleaning rod and insert it into the muzzle end of the barrel until it contacts the tip of the projectile. Once done, mark the rod at the muzzle-line with a bit of tape. Then remove the projectile and allow the rod to continue on down the barrel until it contacts the face of the bolt. Mark the rod again with another bit of tape. The COL is the distance between the two bits of tape.
Differences in bullet lengths from one bullet to another (of the same mfg / model) can be quite a lot..........especially with lead tipped and hollow point bullets.
@@ricksweetser1683 agree.
Very easy, very simpiliy done!!! 👍
@@yellowjacket548 Yes, but it doesn't matter with this method.
That is to the tip of the bullet, not the ogive that meets the rifling.
That's why you need a comparator set, with the oal gauge.
By pushing it into the sized case, or glueing into a form fired case, it gives you the exact measurement to the ogive on each different bullet. Then you seat slightly deeper to get your distance proper off the rifling.
Your going to be off the rifling a long way with your method.
Great vidio Guys thank you , I have always used a Hornady o.a.l gauge seems to work ok for me , after I have seated the bullet in the case and locked the push rod in place I use a blunt cleaning rod to push the cartridge and bullet out of the chamber so that the projectile doesn’t stick in the lands , Aussie Steve .
Havent settled in on which method I like the most, but the bolt method does entail using the actual bolt/plunger, casing, and round.
Great video! Thanks for sharing
I like Eric cortinas method because it gives you a go no go feel for every other method it seemed to much of a difference in measurements
I use travis' method and then the OAL gauge to get an idea of what is kissing the lands and what my JAM is (which is how Cortina does it I believe). I use an Accuracy One comparator which is great because the way it measures, the head spacing does not matter.
Great video. I use the last method with no probs. Can only add the nail lacquer works better than locktite.
Great Video guys! I got some new info that will help me! Thanks!
Great video Gavin. Reallyy enjoy your channel.