The Perils of Playing (and Designing) Heavyweights
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 เม.ย. 2020
- Heavyweights are a beloved archetype, but playing them has some serious challenges that need to be overcome, and the same applies for developing them. Today let's dive back into a fan favourite, seeing what we can learn along the way,
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Topics related to this video:
Super Smash Bros Ultimate, Smash Bros Ultimate, Super Smash Bros, Smash, Super Smash Bros Wii U, Smash 4, Super Smash Bros Brawl, Brawl, Super Smash Bros Melee, Melee, Smash 64, Rivals of Aether, Brawlhalla, Brawlout, Icons Combat Arena, Mario, Donkey Kong, Link, Samus, Dark Samus, Yoshi, Kirby, Fox, Pikachu, Luigi, Ness, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Peach, Daisy, Bowser, Ice Climbers, Sheik, Zelda, Dr. Mario, Pichu, Falco, Marth, Lucina, Young Link, Ganondorf, Mewtwo, Roy, Chrom, Mr. Game and Watch, Meta Knight, Pit, Dark Pit, Zero Suit Samus, Wario, Snake, Ike, Pokemon Trainer, Diddy Kong, Lucas, Sonic, King Dedede, Olimar, Lucario, R.O.B., Toon Link, Wolf, Villager, Mega Man, Wii Fit Trainer, Rosalina and Luma, Little Mac, Greninja, Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, Mii Gunner, Palutena, Pac-Man, Robin, Shulk, Bowser Jr, Duck Hunt, Ryu, Ken, Cloud, Corrin, Bayonetta, Inkling, Ridley, Simon, Richter, King K. Rool, Isabelle, Incineroar, Piranha Plant, Joker, Hero, Banjo-Kazooie, Terry, Byleth, The Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Star Fox, Pokemon, Earthbound, Mother, F Zero, Fire Emblem, Kid Icarus, Kid Icarus Uprising, Metal Gear Solid, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, Wii Fit, Punch-Out, Xenoblade, Street Fighter, Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy 7, Final Fantasy VII, Splatoon, Castlevania, Persona, Persona 5, Dragon Quest, Dragon Quest XI, King of Fighters, Fatal Fury, Nintendo, Nintendo Switch, Wii U, Wii, Gamecube, Nintendo 64, N64, SNES, NES, Tier List, Best, Worst, Fighting Game, Sakurai, Masahiro Sakurai, DLC, review, analysis, leak, Fighter's Pass, new character
#SuperSmashBros #SmashUltimate #Nintendo - เกม
Thanks for watching everyone! What did you think of the video, and which archetype would you like to see get this treatment next?
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Amazing video
Lightweight video
Zoners would be pretty interesting.
high tiers and low tiers
Grapplers or rushdown for sure. Although i remember you did a video on the best designed characters in the game... Id like to see your take on the worst. Also if you do, 10 bucks on Little Mac, Kirby, and Olimar making the conversation for bad fundamental gameplay ideas for Little Mac, lack of faithfulness (Kirby being foot attack the character basically,) and hard to distinguish attacks , hard to understand and keep track of the specific game mechanics for the character, and generally unfun to fight against for Olimar. Would be an interesting video to see your thoughts on it.
“Now class turn to page 1 part 2 of Heavies”
Ridley: Teacher? Why is Samus here?
Why is she heavier than me!?
Yeah. Ridley feels really weird in this game. He's easy to combo, has slow moves, and a crappy recovery... but _also_ lacks the weight to balance that out? Who's idea was that!?
Don’t forget plant
If it was up to me, I'd make Ridley the ultimate glass canon, emphasizing his violent personality:
1. Make him a little bigger. The guy is still smaller than Bowser, currently. I say make Ridley the largest fighter on the roster, but not by a ridiculous amount. This would give him an oppressive reach that would make him terrifying in advantage.
2. Make him incredibly mobile. Lots of jumps, a glide, and fantastic air/ground speed. Ridley should be able to always chase down opponents no-matter where they are, keeping them on the defensive. Plus this would help counteract how easily the guy gets comboed, if just by a little.
3. Make his moves fast and mean. Again, playing into the aggressive style. We want people to fear Ridley like they fear Ganon. He can pull off some nasty combos that deal a _lot_ of damage. If this proves too oppressive and frustrating to play against, then give Ridley high endlag _only when he misses an attack._ Thus, you have to play calculating and you can't just wall people out with mindless move spamming. Each attack must be made with intent to kill.
4. Keep his weight the same. To balance out the Metaknight-Ganon lunacy I'm describing, keep Ridley's current relative lightness. He isn't here to outlast or play defensively, he's here to kill or be killed. With a massive hitbox and low(ish) weight, we're looking at Smash's ultimate glass canon.
Samus has surprisingly high weight in this game
If you intend on continuing this "Character Archetype" series, I would greatly suggest a video on zoners and keepaway characters. I feel that the archetype generally gets a bad reputation of "spam specials to win", and an analysis of the archetype would be really interesting.
It's not like that reputation is completely undeserved though. I don't think I've ever played against a Link who didn't side-B the second he got the opportunity, for instance.
They meant to use Specials frequently. Wich is a little but still noteable Designflaw Like the Speed mentioned from Heavyweights. They even nerfed Projectilles Against shields to compensate while still keeping the frequency intact. Wich is a good Thing. A good Rob or Samus Player can Look so thrilling in competetivle Play. The Archetype isnt a Problem in itself. Its more so that Projectiles get the hate and the exact User of the Move. PK Fire and Razor Leaf are coming to my mind wich both are used from Not Traditionall Zoners. Ness and Ivysaur are keepaway Characters for Sure but more aggressive then normal Charakters of that Type. I think they deserve to be their and got a fair Chair of Problems Like every Character.
@@anigodzapex9384 That kind of reminded me of another thing regarding zoners. I know that this isn't from Smash but the concepts very much still apply. When Netherrealm showcased Erron Black for MK11 they mentioned how they wanted players to have to make decisions regarding how to keep the opponent away; not to just blindly spam the same moves over and over again, but to constantly think and adapt to the opponent's actions and reactions similar to any other style of play. Essentially, making the match more fun and engaging for both players involved.
@@midnight_gmr8562 Platform fighters provide way more mobility. Thats the reason why some Projectiles have to be either really Big or fly very fast. But Thats Not the Biggist issue Here. The Problem are Items that you can Pick Up and Z Drop . I find that mechanic Not only Dull Personally, but I also think its very unhealthy for the game. Because it Provides every Character with These Kinds of tools, excess to way to much Options. Mostly in Form of Combos and Pressure. Powerfruit and Vegetables give Pac and Peach a Gamestyle on there own. Wich is a little Bit Strange from a Game Design and Balance Perspective.
I Love Erron Black tho. Has his flashy Tricks but also Counterplay.
Now you see, Mewtwo gets the large hurtbox, but not the weight that makes sense for it
heavy m2 would be so good
His frame data and speed isn't heavy though.
I'm not talking Bowser heavy, more like Link and Yoshi weight
Isnt he lighter than pikachu?
he's always struck me like he was supposed to be a glass cannon. he's pretty mobile can do a ton of damage and has allot of power, but it's also really easy to utterly destroy him if you get the upperhand. mewtwo would be interesting as a heavy, but if you lost his mobility he'd basically be a totally different character
7:35 this is why heavyweights are so good casually. Everybody thinks that offstage = probable death, so nobody is willing to edgeguard. Also, lack of combos and most aerial game as a whole, so people tend to think “wtf Bowser is so good” because they refuse to do things that make Bowser bad. Heavyweights thrive off of hesitation.
They don't just think that it is, offstage play is kind of ambiguous and difficult for beginners.
It's also that faster characters require you to make the correct decisions more consistently. Taking advantage of a slight speed mismatch is much harder than playing normally and doing a shitton more damage.
DIVAD291 yeah, it would suck if you ran at somebody with Sonic and then didn’t know what to do. Incineroar gives you time to think.
so that's why i like heavyweights. Because i suck.
You're right, but the specific example of Bowser, who is in fact "so good" may not be the best here. That applies more to Ganon or Dedede.
It’s funny how the new heavyweights that they clearly tried to design with compensation for their weaknesses in mind ended up low tier, while the old ones ended up better off with less compensation
They sacrificed a min/max archetype for an all-rounder without making an actual all-rounder.
Charizard is pretty good.
DekuShrub 99, yeah, charizard can destroy
Bowser and dk are like mid tier though
Except that's not true at all. Stuff like Bowser's Tough Guy passive getting massive buffs or cheese like Wario's fart mechanic plays a large part in why they're more effective than other heavyweights like Ridley or DK.
Heavy characters in Rivals be like:
Kragg: You get hit, you kinda just die
Etalus: Was I supposed to be slow?
Elliana: Even if I'm near the blast zone, I'm still zoning my opponent
Sylvanos: The stage is closed today
Jokes aside, Rivals approach to heavies is very unique and each one approaches their fundamental problems differently.
*Kragg:*
Kragg is a heavy in a more traditional sense. (Has armor, hits hard) But even he has unique mechanics that compensate for his low speed.
*Etalus:*
Etalus is their experimentation with a faster heavyweight. MockRock mentioned how heavyweights are like rushdown characters expect they dont have the speed or frame data to be a rushdown character. Etalus is what happens when you at least remove the speed problem. Still stage control is important for this character. I see it as Etalus gets more heavily rewarded for consistently outplaying their opponent and keeping control of the stage.
*Elliana:*
Elliana is a zoner. But a very unique zoner. Her mechanics such as flying and overheating make her very good at forcing an opening out of her opponent then punishing it. Basically she's a zoner until theres an opportunity, then she becomes a heavyweight to punish it and then back to zoning.
*Sylvanos:*
Sylvanos is stage control, the character. Even more so than Etalus, Sylvanos' win condition is controlling the stage. Once they have control of the stage, Sylvanos doesnt even really need to approach you. Having some of the strongest kill moves in the game and players figuring out ways to combo into them, Sylvanos' options are to be respected.
I main Sylvanos but honestly I dont really see the character as a heavy. Its a view more similar to that of Snake in Smash Ultimate. They have the weight, but their speed and frame data are way faster than what you would expect from a heavyweight.
Either way, I think it's pretty interesting that RoA heavies all take different approaches to solving the same fundamental problems. Although stage control is something they seem to favor and it's something I wouldnt mind seeing implemented into Smash.
I havent tried RoA yet but cant wait to try it when it releases on the Switch. Going to try every character but I think Sylvanos and Etalus may be one of the two I end up maining. I main DK in Smash games but not sure how that transitions over to RoA.
I love how Kragg is considered the worst character in the game yet he makes an appearance in like every major top 8 ever. Really shows how well balanced everyone is
@@haire.stamper5602 same situation as me tbh. Kragg will definitely be my first pick due to visual design alone but silvanos and etalus are my second picks
It my time playing Rivals, I first main etalus, then sylvanos, and dabbled in Eliana. I love how heavies feel in that game
I CANT HANDLE SO MANY HIGH QUALITY VIDEO ESSAYS SO QUICKLY AHH
It’s scary
The solution is to hit the subscribe button
I mean hes good at explaining his thoughts, his analysis falls short in many places. I think it usually has to do with skill, since hes barely an above average character. Hes all hype tbh why i unsubbed
Heavies are heavier they don't die as early
Meanwhile here is a montage of heavies being thrown at weird angles at 40% and dying
A great example of something on paper not working in practice
Nice pfp
I don’t understand how giving heavies bad recoveries is something Smash still does, like what’s the point in them weighing a lot of they still die early because they can’t recover?
@@abitofananimator5716 I think it's because it is a form of agility and so it's included in the weaknesses
@@luno8009 I’d say it’s more survivability than agility
Everyone: Don't use Ganondorf he's bad
Also everyone whenever someone used Ganondorf:
*_N O W T H I S I S A N A V E N G E R S L E V E L T H R E A T_*
If you don’t know how to dodge/shield/avoid his attacks then yeah, he’s more than an avengers level threat
I pity the little Timmy who has to face up against a Ganondorf.
K-leb little Timmy probably won’t be playing online.
@@BlueAizu_ as a ganon player who has an ethernet cord, lag isn't a tool in my arsenal. It consistantly eats important inputs and makes recovery really difficult
Ganondorf is more a natural disaster in Smash Ultimate than any other fighter. With high regards.
I feel like Smash could do with a heavyweight combo character that struggles to kill not because they can't find an opening, but because their moves aren't nearly as powerful as all other heavyweights.
I want a heavyweight design that rewards patient aggression through presence.
Like when bowser had threatening, quick moves that can cut through a character's defenses, but can be countered if played right, you just have to know which moves bowser will opt for.
Moves with quick startup but lots of endlag like browser's moves are a really good design choice for heavies I think.
Ike, kinda sorta
Ridley kinda
Byleth kinda
Banjo and Kazooie? Maybe Yoshi?
I kinda wanna hear your take on Grappling in platform fighters. Considering the emphasis on movement, the relatively small size of characters, and general focus on attacks, they're fairly rare and contentious.
Great idea
Grappler characters are a whole separate can of worms in my opinion... Like, on paper a grappler character sounds good, but in Smash command grabs are incredibly dangerous and often feel unfair because once you're caught you can't escape, leading to immediate punishment. Incineroar in particular (while not considered all that good in the competitive scene) has a really overpowered side special that if not expected is very frustrating to get caught by, especially with its generous grab duration and high kill power (and the fact that if you get grabbed, even if your hitbox lands at the same time the command grab comes out on top).
My view of a heavyweight is the same as my view of a grappler in a fighting game. They exist to invoke fear. They exist to make your opponent too scared to go for a risky option because, if you mess up, they will eat you alive. Best examples of this are Potemkin in Guilty Gear and Waldstein in UNIEL. The problem is that in Smash, heavies... aren't usually scary. The scariest is probably DK thanks to his long-ranged grab and devastating grab-game, but the scarist characters to approach are characters like Mr Game&Watch and Jigglypuff, characters with extremely fast, risky (or not so risky, G&W's up-B is one of the worst-designed moves in the game), moves that either kill or put them so firmly in the advantage state that they might as well kill. And considering how light and wimpy these characters look and feel to play as, this feels... backwards.
It's very frustrating, and it's why, as a long-time heavy main, I've found myself drifting towards Roy. At least Roy's aggressive rushdown invokes the feeling of being off-balance in my opponent as a good rushdown character should.
I'd give Heavies the same fast frame-data as most characters, but longer recoil animations if they miss an attack. Thus, you can still combo moves and hit hard if you play well while keeping an aspect of their classic slowness to balance things out.
A high-risk, high-reward playstyle.
ooh. Like a semi-turbo mechanic? That could be really interesting on a new fighter. I wonder who they would give it to tho.
@@Ven-zg3fj all things considered, this would fit pretty well on the upcoming ARMS fighter, depending on exactly who it is.
@@329link That would be pretty dope. Though I think they might just continue the trend of giving DLC characters longer and longer fsmashes xD
Umm... arent heavies already high-risk, high-reward characters.
The major problem with heavies (at least by the time of Ultimate) is not that hitting with them isn't feasible or adequately rewarding, its that missing with them is really bad. Loads of heavies have moves that come out quick enough or have enough range (or both) to easily get in hits in neutral, and many of those attacks deal enough damage on their own, give you advantage and/or kill well enough that them not leading to combos isn't a problem. As someone who plays most of the heavyweights in the game other than DDD and K. Rool, I can tell you that the most difficult thing about playing them is that missing just one attack (most of which have considerable endlag) can easily lead to a horrendous disadvantage state, which leads being comboed, being edguarded and dying.
Sure, being combo-food in return for surviving to higher percentages is a fair trade, but having horrible disadvantage and recovery is not a good trade for dealing more damage/knockback and having more range with each of your attacks when other characters just get combos from their weaker hits that lead to just as much or more damage and favorable edguarding scenarios with suffering any disadvantage for it. What heavies need is more moves that are safe to use in neutral, better recoveries and/or effective ways to get out of disadvantage. The reason that Bowser is the best heavy is not just because he can run quickly and hits like a truck, but because his up-b out of shield comes out frame 6, is not too unsafe if it misses and gets you out of a variety of bad situation that other heavyweighs can't deal with effectively, or at all.
I'd like to hear your thoughts about the zoner archetype of characters like Zelda, Robin and Pac-Man. There's been a lot of controversy about these characters in ultimate, but I'd like to hear your thoughts about this.
On the list for sure!
Pac-Man is more vortex than zoner, he has strong zoner elements, but he's definitely a character massively weighted towards keeping advantage than being amazing at neutral
Dont forget rob as a zoner, fits the archetype way better than pac-man
Alex Lockwood Idk zelda feels weird to me. People often say she’s a zoner but idk, she feels like a weird mix of archetypes to me. But i can see why people would say zoner when we look at down b and side b
@@th0rrr Zelda's explosive OoS options make it a bit hard to call her a zoner, much like Snake. When you're that good at resisting close-quarters pressure, you don't really fit into the archetype of a character who needs to keep people out to win
This video really was a HEAVY request, huh?
damn time travelers
nice
I really loved “The Problem with Heavyweights”! That was the first video of yours I ever saw and I really enjoyed it! I’m glad you remade it!
This video is so informative and interesting at the same time, it feels like it could be turned in to a university which is one of the reasons I love this content
Thank you, I really appreciate that!
Oh wow hi DDee!
I love your videos with Zero and Samsora, you seem really fun to play with! 😁
I never thought I would main a heavyweight character in a platform fighter until I played Rivals. That being Sylvanos.
Imagine playing as a plant instead of a hulking rock beetle (this comment was made by Kragg Gang)
Because they know how to make good heavies
I play heavyweights in most fighting games. It is weird.
God I want him in smash so badly
@@hinamiravenroot7162 the grass mechanic would make players cry.
Playing Ganondorf teaches you so much about reading opponents and being patient
Perk of a heavy:
-the opponent is always at kill percent
Downsides of a heavy:
-the opponent can easily get you to kill percent
Heavy:
- You *are* kill percent.
Downsides of Current Heavies:
-Poor Agility
-Poor Frame Data
-Extremely exploitable recovery
-Massive target
-Reach Kill percent Faster
-Poor safety on shield
"The role Charizard plays in Trainer's kit."
You mean Flare Blitz?
You mean Up-B/Up-Smash out of Shield?
Also as a better recovery option and kill throw for Ivysaur
You mean Up Throw?
You mean back air that kills at 40
You mean back throw bair?
I wish heavy characters all had a uniform mechanic that allows them to make up for their lack of approach options and general mobility. Dying 10-20% later really isn't that much when you can take twice or more getting ledge trapped or juggled, and the slower heavies don't actually kill that much earlier against good players. It would be nice to have a little more to compensate for this.
For example if they have buffed trample properties on some of their ground moves so that say a DK ftilt or Incineroar dash attack will always beat out weaker normals+projectiles and never trade or clank. If a heavy clanks, they almost always have the frame disadvantage. It's super annoying if Mario approaches with fire ball and my tilts just bonk, because it means I have to maneuver away from the Mario which really is counterintuitive to how heavies are "supposed to" work. If I could tilt through opponents throwing buttons in my face that would set up a scenario where you have to play more cautiously specifically because I am playing a slow heavy character. Chrom can't mash ftilt anymore because my heavy character's ftilt is heavier. It makes too much sense to me.
So basically make heavies kinda lowkey sword characters. For the amount of weakness they have giving them a "sword" might actually be a balanced way to help them.
@@lmao2302 Yeah! Swordless swordies in a sense
TinStar the solution to this is to actually give defensive options that complement the offensive options available in the game. When so many defensive options got neutered in the transition to Ult, that indirectly nerfed a ton of characters that needed those options to survive. And surprise surprise, they didn’t get jack shit in this game to compensate for losing those options. They basically just buffed damage output across the board along with the 1v1 damage multiplier and called it a day. What that did was make it so no one wants to approach heavies because they deal a fucking ungodly amount of damage with a couple hits, so now those heavies have to deal even more with not having good enough movement to get within range of their opponent because now their opponent wants to be as far away as possible to avoid taking 500% from 2 hits. The bad design actually comes in way before the character design though, since a lot of problems are caused by the game’s base mechanics.
When there’s a puny amount of DI and SDI, that makes it so heavies are even bigger combo food than they would be in a game like Melee, Brawl, or PM since they can’t control their trajectory nearly as much as you can in those games (PM/P+ handle heavies beautifully, so Sakurai and co. should take some notes from them on how to design heavies). The lack of hitstun also makes it so heavies have an even harder time comboing others since their moves do so much knockback, so by the time they’re finally able to get to where the opponent was launched for a followup, either the microscopic amount of hitstun in Ult has already passed or the opponent has already canceled their hitstun with an attack or airdodge, leaving them wide open to easily get punished by the opponent.
Pretty much the only engine change that somewhat benefits heavies was the change to jostling. But that change made everything else feel so much worse and removed so many interactions that I’m not even willing to count it as a good thing for heavies. Bowser used to have a bunch of mixups on crossups in Smash 4, like his amazing pivot grab. Now that pivot grabs are completely useless since jostling doesn’t let you pass through opponents anymore, Bowser depends on side b as his crutch which is not only much more boring since grabbing would give you access to four different options that lead to even more potential options instead of the one option (2 if you really wanna count Bowsercide) you get from his side b, but it’s also more frustrating to deal with as the opponent because of the limited options you’re afforded (not to mention the ridiculous power of that move). Pretty much everyone from casuals to top players hate fighting heavies too, their design in Ult just isn’t one that’s fun to play against. And removing the fun is the biggest design failure of them all.
This is kinda how I feel clashing ought to work - by the characters' weight instead of just the damage.
I feel like if you only last like 10-20% longer om average with a heavy you suck at DI
3:08 " Trading Agility for Power "
Me : *Laughs In Bowser*
Same... Robin: _sweating in terror_
Off topic and I usually don't leave super generic and repetitive comments like this but thanks for this I've been ridiculously bored and frustrated all day.
Zoners are the first archetype to come to mind, but I feel like the three types really need either seperate sections, or even potentially separate videos.
Type 1: Traditional Zoners - Characters who have a similar tradeoff to heavies; They trade mobility for a stage-wide presence. This covers chatacters like early/online Link, Samus, and Belmonts.
Type 2: Keep-Away -
This group is similar to traditional zoners, but actually retain very high mobility. These characters tend to use this mobility to reposition in the face of aggression instead of trying to hold their ground, and usually end up better for it. Examples that spring to mind are Young Link and Olimar, and more aggressive or technical Samuses.
Type 3: Trappers -
Characters who actually suffer from similar mobility constrains as the first type, but who also have to deal with their projectiles being either slow or having some in-built delay. They trade these for devastating set-ups, and are either the strongest or weakest the archetype has to offer. Examples include Snake, Pac-Man, and to some extent Ultimate's version of Zelda.
I hesitate to call these three unique archetypes because many characters can bleed across them; Link and especially Samus can be all three depending on the player, and characters like Toon Link cover at least a couple. But having distinct sections would probably be constructive, and noting how characters bleed across the lines can help explain why the archetype is more interesting than "Press B to Annoy".
This post made by the Samus gang.
Pac-Man is probably my favorite character to watch in Smash. Top Pac-Men construct Rube Goldberg machines of pain on the fly and it's glorious.
Also known as the Wifi Warriors
Represent brother
The Problem With Heavyweights 2: Electric Boogaloo
12 bamboo for Ridley to be made a heavy
Smash and Minecraft fans?! IVE MET MY KIND, GREAT SUCCESS
Take my like, you earned it
@@bigdickkenobi6971 5 Flint
You’re level of quality of content and editing makes you one of the channels that I watch as soon as I see you on my subscription box. Keep it up MockRock!
Thank you!
@@MrMockRock You deserve it.
Heavy bois are the best bois
Even the biggest boi ridley who was thought to be to big for smash.
My favorite being dk he's got the expansion pack.already with him.
I do love a little of that expand dong
#SaveTheHeavies
Plus the fact that DK has 4 different spikes.
I like how they said Ridley was too big, then proceeded to make him lighter than samus
@@marshallsalmon6924 tbf ridley is all bones and samus is clad in armour
Great essay. I like how you approached the subject of "sacrificing X for Y" because this essentially applies to all archetypes in Smash. Quick characters (i.e. "fast" framedata) often trade power for speed. Balanced character trade specialization for adaptability. And heavyweight characters trade speed for raw power.
This is what makes Smash Bros. so compelling because all characters are quite distinct from one another (if we exclude "echo fighters"). It still saddnes me how faster characters still dominate competitive Smash to this day, since Smash 64. At least Sakurai gave heavyweights some deserved love in Ultimate (even though they still could get more love).
Ganondorf doesn’t really have much love. He’s not even remotely related to his character in the Zelda Series (considering his Sword is from a demo of an unreleased game), he’s abnormally slow despite being from a race of peak-physical women, he uses no magic, and he’s relatively useless. His sword smashes are just Ike and Cloud’s smashes and at the end of the day, Ganondorf is just a terrible combination of good characters bad moves. He’s competitively unviable, and loses to more than half the roster. You look at Joker, Incineroar, King K Rool, or Hero and see all of the care put into them and their movesets, but Ganondorf has nothing going for him. It’s sad to see. Until Ganondorf is fixed, I cannot honestly admit Smash has a lot of care put into it.
Andrew Healis because of ONE character? lol
I know the state of Ganondorf isn’t good, but I’m not going to undermine everything else in this game. Sorry he disappointed you, but open your mind up a little to see all the other characters.
Just imagine if they buffed Bowser so much he became top tier character...
...hahah just kidding...
...unless?..
He continues to claw his way up, as the meta continues to develop, give him time
@Random Person Because we haven't honed his power. You, yes you random person! You are the destined one, main Bowser
I mean he actually had a very good recovery for a heavyweight in sm4sh
Since top tiers are speedy rushdowns, Bowser can't rise without having good matchups against other top tiers, which he does not.
Just give him more armor and make him heavier lol
Big bodies, high weight, bad recoveries, poor frame data. Their ability to take more punishment is offset by their ability to be killed earlier than most, and combo'd longer than most. A good overview on where heavies are, and why they're in the place that they are. As someone that's played a heavy for a long time, I've always wanted to see my character get the tools they need to better respond to their shortcomings, but that's not something that Smash has really wanted to do. RoA, on the other hand... It's not perfect, but it's leaps towards it. Maybe one day these Super Heavyweights will get all the tools they need to be in S rank without just being upthrow: the character.
Then again, Smash has a lot of characters who are viable because of just a few moves, so who knows if the devs will ever get around to making actually fleshed out kits for the cast.
I genuinely believe Ganondorf is the worst of the heavies. He’s always been my favorite character, and I finally thought with Ultimate he’d be viable. Imagine my disappointment as Ultimate went on. He doesn’t have very safe options other than NAir, and spamming NAir isn’t a fun game plan for you or your opponent. He doesn’t have Bowser’s speed/safety, DK’s grabs, Dedede’s projectiles/combo’s/reflector, K Rool’s projectiles/reflectors/recovery, or incineroar’s Counter/Grab Game. All he has is power. And it’s not even the Triforce of Power kind of power. Nothing he does (other than his FTilt) comes from his series. His Sword was shown off in a Zelda demo and has never been used in-Canon. He’s just Captain Falcon and Ike, but viably worse than both and has clearly less care put into him than other characters.
As a Smash fan, and a Zelda fan, Ganondorf is a disappointment. I’ll still play him, but every time I’m projectile camped, effortlessly gimped, or just cheesed, it pains me knowing he could be better but isn’t important enough to warrant improvement. No buffs, no fixes. Just a continual path of failure. I’ll remain disappointed in Smash. Not the developers, I respect the work they put in, but their oversight.
I feel ya, my brother mains Ganondorf and we complain about him all the time. We are not competitive players or anything but even us can see he has more weaknesses than strenghts. Even some of his moves are obsolete now like for example his neutral b its supposed to be super strong and it gets armor but Byleth's down b does the same except better, his side b is a command grab but compared to Ridley's you cannot use it as a recovery tool (you know like, side b then up b) and also Ridley's can get the opponent to the other side of the stage and it also kills. Ganondorf makes me so mad tbh, I mean he's fun to play yeah but he's not even Ganondorf, he's Heavy Captain Falcon and I can't see why. Everybody praises how Sakurai puts a lot of effort on details and in the moveset of the characters but then I see Ganon or Ike (which doesn't even launch beams with his sword, and does not attack like in his freaking game) and I'm like "yeah, right"
I'd like to see them put someone like Samurai Goroh into Smash and give him Ganondorf's moveset, and then give Ganondorf an entirely new moveset that is actually based on his appearance in TLoZ.
I don't even like to play heavyweights, but I'd like to see him done justice. And if they give him his trident, flaming bats and an energyball projectile, I'd definitely play him.
CorHydrae that’s what I’ve said for years. And I think you meant Black Shadow. That way, F-Zero fans are happy with more representation, Zelda fans are happy with a new Ganondorf, and people who liked the old Ganondorf are still happy. But we both know it’s not going to happen.
@@Rexis102 I'm not too knowledgeable about F-Zero, but either one is fine for me.
I do however think that there's a small chance for this to happen. Not... too likely, but not impossible either. I mean, Sakurai already gave in to the common fan demand of "Give Ganondorf a sword!" (even though I have no freaking clue why people wanted him to have a sword instead of his trident, while also complaining about too many swordfighters in the game)
Bro stop complaining you can kill anyone at like 20%
I’d love to see a take on zoners. An archetype widely hated among players described in an elaborate and considerate way. My friends have Villager, Lucas and Simon as mains and they’re often subject to ridicule because of it. They’re basically fighting games version of a Stall team in Pokémon.
There definitely will be at some point!
@@dubiouslittlecreature908 That is why those players who hate zoner players suck ass btw, they have no patience. They don't understand Smash is entirely about patience. Even Melee.
@@dubiouslittlecreature908 I wouldn't exactly call Smash "a game where you want to get close to hit your opponent" when there's at least a dozen characters in the roster that do the exact opposite.
And it is btw equally frustrating for zoner-players to get rushed down by a combo character and not being able to get out and regain your distance. It's the same thing as getting zoned, just inverted.
I co main young link so I know how u feel
I can understand the hate... Zoner's are basically designed to spam. Essentially a sin in casual play (at least at my house) but totally acceptable in competitive play. It just feels awful, and it feels petty unless they mix things up every so often.
When he records himself and moves his hands I can’t help but think of Reggie
I'm glad you talked about how superheavy recovery is unnecessarily bad. Slow movement and combo-vulnerability are adequate drawbacks for the archetype, there's no need to pile on. Many heavier/slower characters could receive huge boosts to their recovery without making them unbalanced.
Heavyweights In this game are so fun haha even if they aren’t that great
Yes. My favorite heavy are King dedede,Wolf and Incineroar.
Unless you’re Bowser lol
Edward Robinson wolf isn’t a heavy. He’s lighter than ness, Lucas, and inkling. I think people think he’s heavy just cause he’s slow on the ground
@@T3RD5ify oh my bad. I was thinking he's was because he's slow and hit hard like some heavys do.
Edward Robinson no worries 👍 I thought he was heavy before because he just feels hard to kill
I barely even consider myself a Smash fan, haven’t even played it since before Piranha Plant released, and yet I obsessively watch your videos anytime they pop up.
It’s like listening to a legendary sports analyst talk shop. Your ability to understand and interpret the metadata and parse through the underlying concepts that control them is masterful.
I could listen to you wax poetic about Smash for hours on end (and have) and I literally don’t even play. I may never own another Smash title for the rest of my life, and I’ll still be subbed and eagerly awaiting your next breakdown lol. This is art, man. Thanks for the quality entertainment 👍
What a cool comment to read, considering I feel the exact same way about some other games and channels. Thank you!
Honestly, adding priority or armor to just a few moves on each heavyweight who's struggling would help these characters a ton.
Random Person this is assuming speed isn’t an option for modification/compromise
I do kinda feel like the weight stat should be key in clashing, too.
MrAuthor3DS I think that’s a great idea! Make weight proportional to clashes, that way a Ganondorf won’t match hits with a pikachu
Woohoo! I needed a new Mockrock video right now, and about my favorite character archetype too. Nice.
15:28
"A true top tier heavyweight would be so absurdly lethal that it'd be frustrating to fight even at top level"
*cries in Kazuya Mishima*
If you continue with the series, I’m very excited to see the Glass Canon video. I feel like they either have some of the best design in the game like Chrom or Pichu (post patch lol) or are just terrible like Little Mac. Love your videos my man, keep it up!
@Wiley Midura that's the problem with him. To beat him you most likely have to camp, making it fun for no one.
Really informative video, was cool to see how the design of heavyweights evolved over the Smash games and I liked how you mentioned the unique heavyweights in Rivals. I think it have been cool to compare and contrast the official Smash character heavyweights design to Project M/Project+ heavyweights designs as well seeing how the philosophies have deviated so much. e.g. PM/P+ kept the jump squat lag but gave Bowser a Fireball but Ultimate gave Bowser a 3 frame jump squat and made Firebreath much more powerful. I think the different interpretation of the characters are pretty interesting.
The day that heavys become meta is gonna be the most hype ultimate have ever seen,mark my words.
Snake is meta.
@@Juan-zs6jt the cooler heavys.
Thx my guy I love the direction this one is goin and look forward to future heavy/other archetype/whatevs videos
Pros: You hit hard.
Contras: Good luck trying to hit anyone.
While it isn't mainline smash, I feel like Project M Donkey Kong is worth mentioning. Donkey Kong in Project M is a solid high tier, while still being well balanced. He has a brutal combo game, intense kill power, and great range and mobility. When it comes to disadvantage, he falters, but only by a bit. He lacks a good recovery and doesn't have a good way to leave disadvantage, but has two great out-of-shield moves in grab and up-b. Donkey Kong in this game is possibly the coolest he's ever been in smash, while still being balanced, and fun both to play and watch.
"Of course you can have this power... what are you willing to sacrifice for it?"
Ganon: Everything
U stay putting out good content, I'm happy to have been subscribed to you for this long, I'd say since right before ultimates came out. Your vids have only gotten better since then!
"Heavy weights have a pretty linear recovery"
King Dedede and King k. Rool: ;-;
Still linear, but better than most heavies
I always click on a new video from you in my recommended, but if it's about the most interesting and fun designs in Smash, I drop everything and get some popcorn.
1:06 Unironically this one-off line talking about how archetypes handle discussion is actually what gave me the push to go and give Cage The Elephant a listen. And yeah I really do enjoy Cage The Elephant now, so thank you!
Man I love your content so much. You write very good scripts, have great editing, and all of your points are creative and well thought out. Keep producing stuff and I'll keep watching it!
Hey thanks, appreciate that!
I love playing heavies and have been a Ddd main forever
Video man: Heavyweights are slow and generally have poor recovery.
Me: Hee hee F-Smash go doriyah.
hehe top tier go edgeguard
Random Person >:3c
haha joker go down b
Here’s what I would do to Ganon:
-Change his up tilt to his smash 4/Brawl up smash.
-Make his f-smash a little bit faster
-give him a float
-change warlock punch to Deadman’s Volley
-give flame choke less end lag so he can actually follow up on every character
-don’t go into helpless fall after using flame choke
Even with all this, he still wouldn’t be top tier because of how big and slow he is. But damn it would make him way more fun.
I'm excited for these archetypal studies and deep dives. As usual, great analysis.
A new vid already that's hype
In great contrast, I want one on lightweights. They almost always top or high throughout the games (Except Kirby ever since Smash 64) and in would be interesting to here about them in depth. Also, it seems like the current situation has given you more time to make videos.
Love the concept of this series, and I’m very interested to see how you plan to draw the line between the rushdown, bait and punish, and pressure oriented archetypes considering that most characters who fall into one of these categories fit into two or even all three of them.
I really hope you do more archetype videos~! I made a post about character archetypes in Smash specificly not too long ago because there is so much overlap, while other times I have no idea what archetype some characters could be refered to. Like like K.Rool who is both a heavyweight and a zoner, while Ice Climbers..... beats me. I hope to see more archetype videos no matter how broad or specific the characters covered in those videos might be.
“A character as fast as sonic and as heavy as bowser.” Well, while not to that extent, this is just Captain Falcon.
Excellent video, hits the nail on the head.
Going forward in smash with heavyweights, I hope that they follow up on what Rivals of Aether does with it's heavies and add some sort of unique ability deviating from the traditional archetype to compensate for their weaknesses. Whether it be a strong projectile game, better mobility, or even some rushdown capability, I'm all in for it.
It would be cool if you covered the rushdown archetype or the turtling archetype next. Rushdown because they often lead to the flashiest stuff and turtling for how some people decry the style
I frickin love the intro. Every single time
I would like to see how you tackle the idea of glass cannons in Ultimate, I've had this discussion with friends and it got kind of messy similar to the heavy weight definition in smash
Smash Devs: Of Course, you can have this...what are you willing to sacrifice
Smash Devs: OH YOU'RE A DLC CHARACTER. Never mind go ahead.
Always love the positive vibe you have when concluding the videos! I’m curious of your thoughts about what kind of balancing could be done to heavies in this game, through a patch rather than a total next-game moveset overhaul, that is the most critical thing to fix for them (my guess is disadvantage state, especially offstage, or frame data in neutral, but I don’t know too much about the game balance).
This was very thorough and super fascinating to watch.
I was playing as DK earlier today, and a Pit main literally carried me offstage into the blast zone.
Ganon main, that’s the life of a heavy
I main Ridley in ultimate (doesn’t technically count as a heavy but he feels like one to me) and I have to say the longer fighting games have progressed heavies seem way better and I’m currently having loads of fun with them
Great video! I find this architopic to be really interesting, and I'd love to learn more about all of them myself. If there's one I'd really love to see you cover though, its the Glass Cannon archetype. While I'm not the best at playing them, I find their designs and matches that they're in to be really interesting and extremely entertaining. If you don't mind, I just wanna list "some" thoughts on my favorites.
The most standard I feel and my favorite to play of the archetype is Mewtwo. Their surprisingly light in smash despite canon, though I feel that's to help lean into their more floaty, alien-like characteristics. What doesn't help though is them of having a larger hurtbox thanks to that tail of theirs. However, I love the visual flair that they have, and that combined with combos strung into powerful finishers in the hands of a good player, his gameplay feels as smooth as butter.
When you lean more towards one side of the archetype however, either further lowering survivability, or further increasing damage, things get really interesting. Pichu is the former, and my god. On top of being one of the smallest characters and THE lightest character in the game, about half of their attacks damage themself. But on the other hand, their stage coverage from their movement alone is crazy, and though it can be hard to hit sometimes, their combo game, side, and down specials are devastating when used correctly.
On the other side of the coin, there's Mr. Game & Watch, and while he's been controversial as of recently, I still love watching that mute maniac. To quote the great Fawful's Minion, he's what happens when you decide to upgrade your glass cannon to a paper bazooka! His weight as a literally two-dimensional character and a strong albeit linear recovery are his big hindrances, but when you navigate past those, YOU BECOME
J U D G E M E N T D A Y (pun intended)! Decent mobility, multi-hit combos, multiple spacing tools, one of the game's strongest reflectors on an archetype that greatly benefits from them, and what I believe is the most well known side special in smash history. If Smash Bros. is Mr. Sakurai's wild ride, G&W is the god damn ticket.
I know I definitely missed some (Absa in Rivals of Aether, Kirby and Jigglypuff maybe? I'm not really sure and I main the pink puffball!) but these fellas are without a doubt a unique treat in the fighting game genre, and one I'm happy to sink my teeth into every now and again.
this sounds like an awesome series. would love to see more
He's so worried about dropping the invisible load of bread
Commenting before watching, at least Bowser is good now, even if the rest still aren't. We're getting there.
@Strange Kitten lol no
Ganon is okay. I would say Bowser, Ganon, and then King K.
@@10thletter40 king k is prob slight better
@@10thletter40 Ganon is garbage. Hasn't done anything for an entire year.
Please make more of these man, i fucking love your videos, i wanna see more character archetypes
Considering K. Rool, I couldn't help but wonder: How does a superheavy with armor on multiple moves, two projectiles, a recovery that can bring him back from almost anywhere and can at least weakly defend against edgeguards, AND a counter/reflector become the worst in his class?
This is how.
Bad frames...
It's the fucking bad frames...
At least K. Rool can deal with projectiles and being pressured. What's Ganon gonna do against projectiles?
As a guy who’s mained Solo Charizard and King Dedede, Smash has a terrible way with dealing with heavies.
The problem is that the developed gives heavies toxic things aside from maybe Charizard.
Bowser: fast as hell, annoying oos game, and having really janky hitboxes, while being pretty easy to play if played extremely lame, kills very early, and still has some decent weaknesses even though he’s debatably high tier.
The rest just have annoying options are outweighed by their glaring weaknesses. This is prominent through the devs refusing to fix inconsistent hitboxes (like Fly, D3 Fsmash, Ganon’s nair, ect...) and the devs putting too much kill power in some moves while severely limiting tools get back on stage.
I’d trade having the highest weight in the game for my hitboxes to be more consistent and to have an overall easier time getting out of disadvantage. However, smash devs refuse to balance heavies and instead exaggerate their strengths and weaknesses which makes the majority of the heavies a complete mess of a character.
5:44 Joker: ah yes I'd like extreme kill power, even though I have great mobility.
Balance: Cool you can have it, what will you be sacrificing?
Joker: Ha, Ha
Joker: *WE DON'T DO THAT HERE*
As a huge Yugioh fan I loved that little tongue-in-cheek reference at 2:14. Keep it up man!
"a truly top tier heavyweight would need to be so absurdly lethal to be extremly frustrating to play" Kazuya has entered
I'll be real, before Ult I never really played any of the heavy characters. Had a decent enough Bowser in Smash 4, but that was about the long and short of it. As of Ult though, I actually have incorporated Incineroar into my lineup, just because he's so damn fun. Also have a pocket Ganondorf I use almost exclusively to play Ganon dittos with a friend of mine. I just think they're silly and a blast to play, because while sometimes you can get bullied super hard, sometimes you just get away with some straight up nonsense and it's beautiful.
Love the video! However, there's just one small problem that (in my eyes) is easily fixable. You should try moving your arms more- While hand movement is good to get your point across, it comes off as stiff in the style you're doing it.
Might be wrong, though! Keep up the good work nevertheless!
I'd love to see an analysis of Zoners. I think R.O.B. is a super unique case in that he's an incredible zoner with a traditional projectile but with a passive charge in regards to the laser as well as an extremely high utility projectile in the Gyro. Along with this though he has a solid combo and hand to hand game which is vastly built upon by using his Gyro as an assist. He also has a taste of grappler in him as his throws are all useful in several scenarios. Most Zoners have an average recovery but R.O.B. has one of the best recoveries in the game! I'd be glad to answer any questions you have about R.O.B. as well if you'd like!
I hear that death mountain combat theme, great taste in music and a great video with it. Keep em coming!
One way I would love to balance a heavy is to give them a better recovery, lower their general damage output, but give them a HUGE emphasis on reads that lead to insane damage and early kills. The idea is that the heavies goal is to get your opponent into a bad situation, attempt to read their option, and get a gigantic reward if they are successful (similar to prepatch cannon in Brawlhala). They would then use their great survivability to get more chances to read an opponent in case they missed it before. Make it utterly terrifying to be in a bad situation against a heavy, but allow counterplay on both sides.
I think it makes sense to divide their moves into combo and kill type (though obviously way less combos that light characters) simply because as things are, their DPS isn’t much different than a light character’s (one is big damage but few hits, the other is small damage but lots of hits. Unless you’re Sheik lol), but light characters have the speed, recovery, and frame data to compensate whereas heavies rely soooo much on reads that the balance gets shifted too much
"make me a character as fast as sonic and as heavy as Bowser"
Me: *laughs in hamster*
I'm positively surprised how well selected the clips are. You really made an effort to have the gameplay in the background match whatever you were talking about. Other Smash youtubers just put random clips in their videos.
Thank you! Spending hours watching tournament footage on 2x speed drains your sanity and willpower, glad to hear the results are noticed.
Hey MockRock! This is an excellent video! I just wanted to say, that as a fellow Pit player, I wanted you to tackle the "All-around' character archetype. Good at everything but doesn't specialize in anything either. It would probably be a short video considering the only "all-around" characters I can think of are Mario and Pit, but I think it is an interesting archetype.
Thank you! The jack-of-all-trades/beginner-friendly archetype is absolutely a candidate for the series.
Heavyweights should honestly just be faster, almost as fast as standard characters and they need better recoveries. Having a large hurtbox and being easily comboable is enough of a detriment.
On the other hand, their large sizes give them more range. I would say give them better frame data if anything.
I think frame data and recovery are the most needed improvements but “heavy = slow” is a misconception that Bowser rightfully stomps over and several characters can also be sped up (though some really are canonically slow so making them fast wouldn’t honestly be that sensible)
@@4xzx4 Range is not really dependant on a character's size. You can be small and have good range (Meta Knight) or big and have lackluster range (Ganondorf)
@@SchAlternate Not to mention your hitboxes become hurtboxes easier, aka K Rools Forward Tilt is his best up close but extends his hurtbox and I die so much because of that
@@SchAlternate Meta knight's range is total garbage. It is just disjointed in the sword attacks.
The true best heavy is fishbunjin. A heavy with an awful disadvantage position but also some frame data as good as fox with some burst movement options. He's a weird one.
Also fuck armor in ultimate it's obnoxious as fuck.
How does it feel to be verified and still only have 1 like and comment
very well made video, simple, but well supported thesis. Would have liked to see some more tie ins to other franchises and genres maybe. Its easy to think very linearly about archetypes when only viewed through the lens of one game/series. The definition of heavyweight is certainly different when looking at it in smash vs looking at it in platform fighters as a whole vs fighting games as a whole for example.
Please continue this series! I like it!
"The PROBLEM with Heavyweights" ...??? O_o
_Bowser sneaks up on you with his frame 6 command grab_
You gotta problem with us Heavyweights BOYO!?!? 🐉 🔥
"Make me a character as heavy as Bowser and as fast as Sonic"
Ok, just don't give them disjoints, projectiles, or walling moves
Also, make them have a large hurtbox, let's say DK-sized
Actually, yeah, let's go with this being a DK reimagination, his games don't exactly make him slow despite him being heavy
His speed is the only thing he can use to get in, since he doesn't have any sort of range or camping options
His weight and size make him combo food
There you go, a balanced fast heavyweight
haha i totally didn't steal this idea from pm/p+
Ashley White Sounds dumb
Also pre-returns DK is pretty slow tbh
I can’t explain what brings me back, but I’ve had to have watched this multiple times
I'd love an archetype series! Please continue this!!!
I’d like to see P+’s designs in here as well. They’re pretty creative when it comes to character archetypes.
Brandon Burgos Balance mods are the epitome of hindsight is 20:20. They don’t deserve attention or accolades
EmblemBlade9 Strong disagree. The fact that they have hindsight allows them to make characters work while still being good representations. It’s also far more than a balance patch. The work that’s been put into PM and P+ is insane.
@@emblemblade9245 I don't think that is fair to say. Official balance patches are also the epitome of hindsight is 20:20. But those are absolutely necessary since it's impossible to know the meta of your game until people start actually playing and of course good balance patches are worthy of praise. Besides that, PM/P+ is definitely not a 'balance' mod and is way more transformative than that. In terms of direction, gameplay, character designs and the meta, it's its own Smash game that has proven worthy of attention.
King Dedede is my biggest disappointment of all the heavyweights in Smash (Ganondorf is a close second). It just bothers me just how. Dang. SLOW he is. Why does he fall as fast as he does? Why does he _feel like a rock?_ He's KING DEDEDE! In all the modern Kirby games I've played he's just as mobile as Kirby, and he can LITERALLY FLY! So why do his air jumps feel _awful?_ Its not even the newer games only. Ever heard of Gourmet Race? Kirby literally races against Dedede and he's not that slow!
Its bizarre to me how Sakurai, the CREATOR of Dedede, can somehow make his Smash moveset feel not like Dedede. His personality and moves are spot on, but his physics sure aren't.
My man mock gots the ARMS music in back bro????
Let's GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can you do more archetype videos? I struggle with the topic and having a person like you explaining it would really help me