Thanks for watching everyone! This comment has some important information in it, so please consider clicking "Read More." Before that though, let me know your thoughts on zoners in Smash, as well as any archetypes you'd like to see show up in future polls! -Second channel: th-cam.com/users/mockrocktalk -Twitter: twitter.com/MrMockRock -Twitch: www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch -Patreon: www.patreon.com/mockrock -Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock Correction: I stated that (Dark) Samus' Screw Attack comes out on frame 6. That's incorrect, it actually starts on frame 4 and its initial hitbox lasts until frame 6, I got those confused. Thanks to glob2454 for the correction, and damn do I wish TH-cam still supported annotations. Disclaimer: This video features the upcoming video game Rushdown Revolt. Vortex Games, the creators of this title, recently approached me to do contracted consulting work for their team. This video is NOT sponsored, and the script was written and recorded before any discussions were had. While I am choosing to disclose the relationship for the sake of transparency, it did not influence the creation of this video, nor any previous videos on the channel that featured either Rushdown Revolt or its precursor Icons: Combat Arena. Any future videos that feature Rushdown Revolt will include an appropriate disclaimer that outlines the specifics of their influence on the project, or lack thereof. Note: Another TH-camr named Kafonn had previously made a video with a similar concept called "The Problem With Zoners in Smash Ultimate." This video was fairly small, and I didn't know about it until production on mine was nearly complete (a viewer replied to one of my posts announcing this one). Frankly, I'm not sure it would have changed my plans even if I did know about it, the concept is fairly generic and there are already multiple "The Problem[s] With X" videos on my channel, but for the sake of keeping everything above board I do feel more comfortable mentioning it. Theirs is very different than mine, but solid in its own right and worth a watch: th-cam.com/video/iLYFwkq9nRM/w-d-xo.html
Kazyua is a Mishima style fighter, not a shoto. Shoto or shoto like fighters typically have an upper cut that sends themselves upwards, a spinning attack that send them sideways and a fire ball that while can be angled, normally defaults to following the horizontal axis. An auto turnaround function and command inputs doesn't make a character a shoto, otherwise most fighting games would be completely shoto based even though they follow their own archetypes independent of shotos, which are their own archetype.
Me when playing Kid Icarus Uprising: Oh, your Power setup is entirely focused on the likes of Energy Charge and Slip Shot to kite me out and hope to laugh at my Super Armor usage? Black Hole. GG.
@@captainmega6310 How about projectiles be more interactive in the first place. The problem isn't the difficulty, it's simply the boredom they generate. Needing to commit to a binary approach to manage ANY offense is anything but stimulating. When I defeat Projectile Spammer #81,018,001 with the exact same method without ANY sort of healthy deviation beyond luck with attack timing, it feels so hollow to have done so.
Super interesting video, loved hearing a bit about this topic. And, I'm not gonna lie, the idea of giving Ganondorf's Wizkick a projectile-exclusive invincibility, or even just the idea of that mechanic in general, sounds REALLY nice...
Imagine if up tilt was the same as home run bat. Allowing it to end early makes the bat's smash attack viable if your opponent isn't careful and is a constant threat to play around.
One of the biggest issues with zoners in Smash to me is that when characters have reflectors or other tools that help with dealing with zoners, they are almost always on zoners or characters who already have a projectile. The most clear cut counter to a zone is given to characters who are creating it.
And some tools don't even make a major difference. Take incineroar's counter. He counters a projectile. And then he still has to make it to the zoner, with his horrible run speed and them shooting they're projectiles. Also, if it's samus, he'll get close to samus, and get grabbed, and lose revenge.
I think Belmonts are the best designed of the zoners in Ultimate. Their weaknesses actually matter unlike most zoners in the game. And one of the only reasons they're not very good is a relatively easy one to fix, all they need is lower average KO percents and they'd be way better.
In the "what's a zoner and why do I punch it" bit, this is why I really like power shielding reflecting projectiles, a universal bit of help against zoning. Balanced by the fact that reflected projectiles do way less damage
Parry reflecting would give characters an extremely easy, noncommittal option to just invalidate prpjectile zoning. Characters that drop at least a tier with this change: Samus Villy and Isabelle Gunner Luigi Belmonts Dr mario Sephiroth Robin Yink Tink Snake Diddy
I really feel like there’s not much incentive to parry in this game compared to perfect shielding in other Smash games, so adding that reflector would honestly fix that.
@@chrispo7610 I don’t think it would be ‘easy’ as you’d need to either predict or react very fast to parry it nor do I think it would ‘invalidate’ some zoners as there is always counter play. But its pretty much impossible to know how this would effect game balance because it’s all speculation
@@chrispo7610 so you're saying parry reflecting would give characters an extremely easy, noncommital option to invalidate an extremely easy, noncommital strategy to invalidate approaches? hmmm....
14:26 Ganon actually had an anti proyectile move. In Melee Captain Falcon and Ganon's side B had this "proyectile intagibility" property while having a really not-disjointed hitbox. It was designed to sidestep proyectiles but lose to normal hitboxes.
Shoto? It's a regional dialect. Uh-huh. Eh, what region? Uhhhhhhhhhh Smash Bros. Really? Well I'm from Street FIgther and I've never heard anyone use the term 'shoto'.
Smash nerds: “kazuya’s a shoto” FGC nerds: “Nooo only Ryu and Ken are Shotos because they’re they practice Shotokan!” Other FGC nerds: “Isn’t Shoto-Kahn a Mortal Kombat character?” 🤔
But...shoto is totally used in Street Fighter's community, and other fighting games as a whole. It's one of the most classic character archetypes out there. It just means something very different from "character that is from a different fighting game"
Fox: I have a reflector that can be hold however long I like Min Min:That's not fair mine has to be timed ganondorf:you guys get reflectors also Simpsons
@@Fritz_Haarmann tbf, Fox's reflector is a great move, put on the absolute worst character for it. Fox's main weakness isn't his weight or his recovery - it's his lack of anti-approach tools. If you get the jump on him and come in with a hitbox, what am I going to challenge it with? Nair? Ftilt? So what Fox players do is they move around. Fast run, noncommittal jump Fox's mobility is incredible. But if you reflect something, you'd better hope that reflected projectile hits them otherwise you're going to be a sitting duck without any of that trademark mobility. I co-main Peach and I really wish reflector and toad were just swapped somehow. Would improve both characters tremendously. There's a few other subtleties I won't get into but I always thought Fox was a bit overrated against zoners. There's a reason he does so poorly online.
@@Fritz_Haarmann I hate how Ganon is given 2 Falcon Punches but nothing to deal with projectiles. Falcon at least is fast and can whiff punish somewhat easily depending on who he's facing.
I feel like you picked Dhalsim as a pure zoner, which is true. However, he is the extreme. Think of him more like Min Min rather than Samus. Samus is more equivalent to Sagat. Very strong zoning, not a bad close up game. If you attempt to punish zoning with an unsafe option, he has a DP to punish you. Dhalsim is generally low tier in the newer games because other characters aren't pure zoners. This isn't a problem with just smash. LOTS of fighting games have strong zoners with good reversal "get off me" options.
The thing is, Sagat having a DP is balanced out by the fact his fastest normal is 4f. Doesn't sound like much but it means that he has no safe options to interrupt certain frame traps, meaning he's more prone to melting under pressure. On the other hand, Menat, another zoner in SFV, has a 3f normal that can act as an interrupt but she has no mashable DP to compensate. There is a deliberate balancing put in their movesets to ensure they are not too strong while the opponent attempts to open them up. And that's pretty par-for-the-course with zoners. I genuinely can't think of a single modern FG zoner that isn't put at a clear disadvantage once the opponent gets in.
Simon: I'm gonna be doing this. *Simon swings his whip* Simon: If you get hit, it's your own fault. Kazuya: Ok, then I'm gonna start kicking air like this. *Kazuya kicks the air* Kazuya: And if any part of you should fill that air, it's your own fault.
I haven't had more than one match with Kazuya playing a Belmont. I badly want to teach Kazuya a lesson with him, but the opportunity has alluded me for now.
Oh, good catch, I'm looking at the frame data now and I actually read the last frame of the initial hitbox as the first one, oops! I'll issue a correction, thanks for the heads up.
Not just Dalsim, in traditional 2D fighters, moves generally change character's hurtbox, some more than others. Long reaching move usually extend their hurtbox forward so they can be hit if they whiff the attack. For example, Ferry from GBFV, Axl from Guilty Gear etc. They are not projectiles. I know it sounds weird, but when I heard people said Min Min is too good. I wondered why don't try space it and hit the flying fist. Then I realized there are no hurtbox on the fists. She's Dalsim, right? Why I can't hiy her body part to damage her?
Yeah, I've gotten a few comments like this. I know traditional fighters tend to be a lot more conservative with disjoints than Smash and even though Dhalsim is a bit of an extreme case, you can still hit at least a solid portion of a lot of midrange zoners' tools. I didn't think it was worth mentioning since it was more of a quick "hey even this isn't a true template character" comment, but in hindsight I probably should have been a bit more clear.
It would be nice if hitting her arms at least put her in some kind of animation that provides an opening for you, or deals damage to her without making her flinch.
@@sebaschan-uwu You clearly aren't accounting for the existence of the Ramram if you genuinely believe this, but even if the Ramram didn't exist, the slow characters would still struggle to get in. Their ability to jump over the arms is quite limited due to this inherent disadvantage.
I disagree with the statement that being able to hit the long attacks of normal-based zoners is rare, Traditional Fighters are a lot more conservative with disjoint than Platform Fighters, simply because it's harder to just avoid them. You can also hit Axl's chain in Guilty Gear, for instance. Menat in SFV actually does have a decent amount of disjoint, which makes her very good at keeping people out with little risk, however she also gets less reward for landing these attacks and they're not as far ranged for the same commitment. That being said, they had to tone it down because it was too much. Disjoint is strong in these games and so zoners usually don't get it for free.
Yeah, that's fair to some degree, and zoners in traditional fighters tend to be divided into midrange and projectile, whereas in Smash I personally tend to lump midrange more into the swordfighter archetype as its own thing. The parallels aren't perfect and I tried to stick to as basic an overview as possible, but hopefully at least a solid chunk of it makes sense to most people.
A running joke I’ve had with my friends is “Link is a swordfighter who can zone. Young Link is a zoner with a sword. And Toon Link is there too.” Here’s hoping our cartoon boy gets some love in the next game. But either way, phenomenal video. You perfectly verbalized some of the issues I’ve had with zoners while playing this game.
Toon link's normals are actually quite good and very underrated, the only drawback is his generally low damage output but his frame data and move speed are pretty good and his combo potential isn't half as bad as people think
@@JacobPDeIiNoNi I agree that he’s underrated in terms of viability, but I also agree with MockRock that his overlap with the other two Links is a bit much for my liking.
@@theillusionist1494 I agree I think all 3 could use a moveset overhaul to be more true to their source games to be honest. how well designed link's remote bomb is and details like the master sword beam, gives me hope.
@@JacobPDeIiNoNi I think it would be cool if young link's neutral B should be the sling shot from oot, that functions simmilarly to foxes or falco's lazer, his down b could either remain the bomb as its not very spammable, or be him putting on one of the masks from majora's mask and doing something cool. (up to nintendo.) And maybe make his zair function like his fire arrow's before, make it quicker, so he can continue his combo's as before, but the zair has far less range. I also think that young link should be played more like an aggressive combo character not a zoner, thats how i've always played him anyways, so I'd give him a little bit, not alot just a little more speed to compensate for the lack of range he previously had. I acctually have a problem where I care to much about what people think of me and don't use projectiles when I should because I dont wanna be an "annoying spammer." I think this sounds pretty balanced, but I could be completely wrong and might've accidentally created the next Brawl Meta Knight.
Many of the reasons cited in this video are why I want the next Smash game to just be a big overhaul of the series. I don't really mind if we get lots of cuts, just try to perfect the mechanics, and change a lot of the older characters' movesets to be more balanced and faithful to their original franchises, some big examples being Donkey Kong and Ganondorf.
I agree, they'll probably never be able to top Ultimate with its roster and breadth of content anyway, so they might as well try something totally different. And the people who aren't into it can just keep playing Ultimate, lord knows Melee players are still doing the same after 20 years. lmao
I think the reason zoners need a decent panic option is because of the amount of non-committal mobility in smash. In street fighter, if Ryu launches a fireball, you can either block it, time a forward jump over it, time a neutral jump over it, or use a move that can negate it. With just jumps, double jumps and a single platform you have 3 lanes you can approach from while still being able to airdodge or shield at any time, so while a fireball in sf forces a comittal response, in smash, it really just occupies one lane of approach. So because of that, while in traditional fighters a zoner can keep you out all game, in smash, they're really just delaying your inevitable approach and trying to force you to burn resources or pick a committal option to read and punish with a committal close range option, or shield the attack and punish with OOS. If you wanted a pure zoner with no close range ability, you'd need to give them marvel vs capcom Morrigan levels of oppression and I'd rather that just not exist in the game.
So, I've received a few comments saying similar things, and while I agree that Smash's approach options are way more powerful, it's a 2 way street. Platforms can also be used to cover a zoner from above. Projectiles can all be thrown forward out of a jump, which often covers both grounded and aerial approaches, particularly when done out of a short hop. So yes, Smash has better and less committal jump ins, but it also has better and less committal zoning tools to combat this. And to top it off, while I agree that zoners need close range capabilities of some kind (and said so in the video), they have some of the game's absolute best CQC options alongside a keep out game, which I don't think should be how they work and has been a source of frustration I've heard many people bring up over Ultimate's life.
You say this yet anime fighters are also known for their crazy mobility and zoners generally lack options to get their opponents off them. Example: Melty Blood has much crazier and more freeflow air movement than Smash, and yet Vlov in Type Lumina (the game's main zoner) still has to rely on system mechanics like shields to contest rushdowns like Arc and Miyako once they get in.
@@MrMockRock Plus, the non-committal mobility also applies to zoners as well. Most zoners are perfectly capable of running to the other side of the stage after you get off the ledge.
Players like mewtwoking make a solid point about stage selection heavily impacting zoner play….primarily the inability to select smaller stages and how they should be tournament legal. The stage selection currently heavily favors zoners
Faster characters and Zoners dominate in that situation. Bowser is a big target with little space to go while a Zoner can just hit you off stage without much set up and then zone you from there. In fact this almost ensures their zone covers the entire stage letting them be opposite ledge and punish you.
The biggest problem with smash character design for me is not that they are good. But that many aren't fun to fight. When half the roster makes me wanna stop playing its hard to wanna play at all.
Robin's the zoner I have by far the most experience with having mained them throughout all of Smash 4 and still playing them a decent amount in Ultimate. They are an interesting case in that they're one of the zoners who struggles hardest against other zoners thanks to the formerly lowest now second lowest ground speed, around average to slightly below average air speed, lack of any special tools to deal with other zoners, somewhat slow startup on most of their stronger projectiles and especially poor tools in disadvantage.
Project m ganondorf does exactly what this video says, his new neutral b is a reflector (plus a float) and his wizard foot cuts through projectiles or clanks if the projectile is too powerfull. Makes playing against zoners sooo much more fun.
25:12 I’d say it’s potentially worth it. See also: the beloved Guilty Gear series has a situation where characters are so nutty that everyone has a few characters they hate, even though the balance is enough that every matchup is doable
I know my inner Zelda fan is talking right now, but I think if there's ONE character that should be overhauled, it's Dorf. He deserves better than to be stuck with a move-set clone that has nothing to do with him with only Side B and Smashes changed in 2 decades.
@@RacingSnails64 unless it's one of the zoners who can swat ganon with anti-airs immediately after an attack. Samus charge shot to zair or min min side tilt to fair while drifting back wins that exchange. Min min's fair and bair are also safe on shield, making it so that ganon is at a disadvantage against an equally skilled player. If you've been doing well with ganon against zoners, it's safe to say that there is a skill gap between you and your opponents
2:42 I personally would put swordies less in zoning and more under spacing, still putting pressure at a lesser distance while still somewhat falling under zoning
As someone that actively plays Zoners. I genuinely always felt like Rivals of Aether had the right idea of giving every character a reflector. It just felt.... right. It solves so much while needing a lot less effort than other methods to implement.
I would like to see you talk about grapplers. I see a lot of Luigi hate when it only seems to be for his touch of death, if that were removed then I don’t see how he could be considered poorly designed. Something else interesting is how Bowser and DK got a lot of hate back in Smash 4 for their combo grabs but I just don’t understand it. Yeah, they want to land grabs. They’re grapplers, that’s how they win. They didn’t immediately kill off of them, but landing a few grabs was enough to take a stock. Similarly, Zangief in Street Fighter only needs to land one command grab to put his opponents in a panic because he can follow that up with basically whatever he wants. I just don’t understand why people think grapplers are poorly designed for wanting to land grabs.
Grabs themselves exist as a way to counter shields and counters... how do you counter a grab or someone who has powerful grabs and attacks? DK hits you like a truck if you try to time a dodge for a grab... but if you try to dodge/shield that attack you end up being grabbed and lose a stock. It is similar to the flaws in zoners... a focus which is contrary to the core game itself.
@Dragoonsoul7878 To my knowledge the Smash neutral triangle works as such: shield beats attack, grab beats shield, attack beats grab. I don't think the flaw is with individual characters, but rather with the game itself, and thats mainly because grab teching is one of the most worthless mechanics put into Smash. Very rarely do you ever see it, and it's based entirely on the frame data of said grab. If both grabs' active hitboxes collide on the same frame, the throw is teched and neither player wins the interaction. I don't think it needs to be said that this is horrendously small. Back to a game like SFV, you don't have to connect on the same exact frame to tech a throw. The window to tech is somewhere around 7-11 frames (I don't know the exact number) and as long as you use your throw in this window, no matter how far into a throw your opponent is, you will tech it. Smash does not encourage you to challenge a grab with a grab of your own, which makes players resort to less favorable options (spot dodge, attacking, etc.). Although, I don't think attempting to dodge is as bad as you say it is. Think of probably the purest grappler in the game: Incineroar. He has three kill throws, a combo throw, and a powerful, advancing command grab. However, he's slow as hell and absolutely cannot get in without risk. But that's what grapplers do, they slowly charge at their opponent to end up doing massive damage. The problem with this is that Incineroar can't keep up his advantage state like others can. His awful mobility makes chasing people trying to escape him a challenge, and although his moves do decent damage, the reward for most of his normals is surprisingly low. This completely goes against the grappler philosophy of "land one grab and win." Looking at it, though, this might just be a problem with the game being a platform fighter. Zangief in SFV has the benefit of each command grab leading to a knockdown which sets him up for command grab loops, as well as good normals and a normal throw to keep the opponent guessing. Incineroar can't maintain that advantage state easily, and he doesn't have any notable tools to keep his opponents guessing between grab and attack. But then how do you even design this in a game like Smash? This is why I think Luigi is a good grappler. Not only is his grab rewarding, but he has a good close range fireball as well as very fast and safe normals. This is what grants him his grab vs. attack guessing game, and landing the right attack (nair, fair, dtilt) can be almost as rewarding as the grab itself. The TOD is obviously a bit much, but I do think Luigi and other grapplers only struggle in the design sense because the Smash team doesn't think that deeply of the archetype.
No one thinks grapplers are poorly designed they are just annoying as fuck to fight. Luigi is annoying as shit but aside from his kill combo he's a garbage character
In smash all FG characters have a similar play style, and somehow shoto became the catch-all term for these characters. Even though it's not accurate to the play styles in their own games.
When i was exclusively a smash player, I thought zoners like Samus and Snake were completely fine to play against After playing real fighting games for a few years, I realize that smash zoners are just rushdown characters with zoner moves (which is the worst of both worlds) Its so annoying for a zoner to not die when you get in on them
Except most zoners aren't. Samus has very few good buttons up close aside from zair and up b, Min Min just dies when you get up close, R.O.B has a crap disadvantage and Snake relies on a move to blow himself up to escape disadvantage, and has bad aerial frame data otherwise. These characters all have decent buttons up close bit not as much as, say, Falcon, Terry, Ryu, Ken, etc.
@@vick7868 > samus still has good options (like you said), which means they don't really fall under pressure because they can use their launching moves after you took damage from the zoning > min min counts, that's one > rob's disadvantage doesn't matter because you can just shield if they get in and use his down tilt, so you don't have to get into disadvantage > snake has down air, so out of shield you can just get launched away to continue the zoning
Idk what you mean by "after playing real fighting games for a few years", you already said you played smash, are you saying smash bros doesn't exist and is thus fake? Pretty sure we have a lot of evidence on the contrary
@@hogindoz What about platform fighters makes them FAKE fighting games, it's a different more recent genre but it's still a fighting game. I would understand a term like "classic fighting game" but "real fighting game" implies any others would be a "fake fighting game"
I honestly think the Zoner archetype is actually a good thing for games. It helps players learn how to approach and how to play more safely rather than rushing down most of the time. It can teach a player to be patient. I also feel like zoning and staying away from your opponent is a more than valid option...When there's thought put into it and when you give other characters counterplay and dynamic options to deal with zoning (or even just one option, one way to counter zoning...). Though, when playing a game with different characters you have to learn how to fight them when you play competitively....I say all of this even though Ganon is my second favorite character to play. (Hero's my favorite...RNGesus all the way.) However i do agree that Zoning in Smash has quite a good amount of flaws and the way they play in a very repetitive manner....And just the mobility isn't enough to deal with projectiles and that projectile interactions tend to feel very shallow and repetitive in design.....And the Online doesn't help at all too....
Duck Hunt here… yeah checks out… I do mainly love the character because I found him and the Duck adorable and also they seemed really creative which is the reason why I like zoners… the right person can make them so great to watch
I personally don't mind the Zoner type in fighting game, especially in smash since smash is so free flow in movement. But since the online is so trash and I wanted to play more serious at a time where you can only play online, it's pretty hard to do stuff and react to it. For me, playing against a Zoner is like figuring out a puzzle and when I figure it out, it feels cool(that only applies to offline though)
As a person who has been playing a lot of 2D fighters, I would love to see Falcon Kick and Wizard's Foot get projectile invulnerability just as they are. Both moves are high committal options with lots of end lag, so the use of these moves to go through projectiles would give these rather niche moves much more use, while still having a good amount of risk considering their end lag.
Their side Bs did have invulnerability to projectiles in Melee, which are both much better moves anyway. Not sure why they got rid of that in later games. Both moves should probably have it though.
Could you do foaties? Also an interesting note is that zoning in Smash involves a lot more movement than in traditional fighters due to traditional fighters generally happening with more limited movement options and more claustrophobic stages
I think that's just down to platform fighters being mostly about movement next to most traditional fighters. In strive i think axl only needs to worry about movement against chipp ram or millia who have ways to get around his antiairs
RE: Projectile-immune dashes (14:00) C. Falcon's side-B in Melee actually does have some projectile-immunity. The frame window is pretty small and players rarely use it on purpose, but that idea was definitely in the developers' minds in 2000. Not sure why they didn't expand on it though.
Ahhhhh he uploads again. Hope life is still treating you well man, always happy to see you doing well. Also this man is so close to 100K, lets get him there
Genuinely a very interesting video, it made for a super informative time. I'm a Samus main but rather than trying to keep the distance between players, I try to focus more on closing that gap with her. It's much, much funner trying to play a zoner as a much more up close fighter.
The main problem I have with projectiles in Smash is that the projectiles tend to be very straightforward and kinda uninteresting. Might be that I got spoiled by Guilty Gear since they've had some amazingly designed projectile games over the years like Venoms poolballs, the Tuning Ball and Eddie (albeit he is a puppet but you get my point). Also known as cool Luma.
I kinda feel bad for how much I like zoners. I just think they're neat. Being able to call people out and get the punish from a large distance is really satisfying to me, and controlling space almost always ends up being my go to strategy no matter who I play. But of course I know people hate it, and people don't tend to want to play with me if I make them mad, so picking up some rushdown characters like Roy or Captain Falcon kinda becomes a bit of a necessity. Lucky for me they're also fun.
I'm really happy you touched on zoners in an online environment. I honestly don't consider them that problematic in terms of balance or level of intrigue, I just hate how much of an advantage every kind of projectile gets online and it makes me roll my eyes every time I see a young link or a samus pop up in the pregame.
I'd say the main two issues with zoners, or more specifically projectiles is that the clash with the gameplay of smash. They set a permanent advantage state where you'd assume a character to be in neutral, and I'm not sure we could get away with making up close encounters a true disadvantage state without making their zoning even more intense. I'd say more ways to interact with them would be the best choice. I'd argue that, outside of just giving everyone a parry reflector, we could make better use of dodging on the ground. I'd want to add some extra frames of projectile only intangibility to rolls and spot dodging, giving extra safety against these keep out tactics. I'd assume its only fair if they're going to play from safety, we could increase some of the safety against them without having to rework most of the mechanics. Closing the gap is easier but B button heros dont have to give up their options
Except you can't, because after winning rock-paper-scissors 3 times in a row and finally getting close to them, you realize they have a better oos option than you
I play Dark Pit and while I know my neutral b is one of my strongest tools, I also have learned that if I rely on it too heavily, people just get around my habits and I'll lose. Projectiles that are well designed should be good, maybe even a bit spammable, but not indisputable. You should be able to approach against them if you have enough skill, regardless of how good the opponent is, if they only use the one move. It should never be as easy as one move, but I guess some characters didnt get the memo
True, I was playing against the campiest banjo player ever today. They just spammed projectiles and ran away for 5 minutes. We ended up going to sudden death and I barely beat him, but it felt great.
Zoning in Smash necessarily involves spamming because even heavy projectile characters like Samus and the Belmonts only have like three projectiles to choose from. The Belmonts in particular also auto-lose if you get inside their optimum range, so trying to keep you at or beyond their whip sweetspot is their only winning gameplan.
@@imperiallarch7610 yeah but what im talking about is that for example a samus just spams down b charge shot and side b and doesnt aproach with dash attack grab or f-air even if samus has the necessary tools for appoaching
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 i sincerely respect pit mains i actually main bayonetta pit and palutena and yeah but there are a lot of character who can spam without getting catched like samus she can avoid punishes by using down b evrytime she charges neutral b or link who can use bumerang before spamming arrow for it to hit you when you try to approach to him
I feel like this video encompasses almost every problem I have with zoner characters in Smash. Another problem more tied to Smash's mechanics is a lack of a universal resource like super meter. More traditional fighting games tend to use meter in order to break up the gameplay loop, and this can be key in making a zoner matchup feel more dynamic. Throughout a match, you can never feel like you have the game in the bag because meter is constantly building. Zoners often need meter in order to perform reversals, but doing so also means sacrificing powerful options that can help them increase their leads. It also gives their a opponent a way to land a powerful punish once they get in or a situational method of by passing the zoner's options in some way, again tying back to your point on "tension" and "catharsis"--you build up meter throughout the match, and then release it once you get the opportunity. It helps that zoners tend to be pretty frail, meaning one key opportunity can be enough to win you the game. Smash lacks this sort of explosive dynamism. No meter means that playing the neutral feels like the non-zoner is straight up losing right off the bat. I'm not gaining anything from playing neutral, there's no reward for pushing through the wall of hitboxes. Then once you break through the opponent's zoning, you get an ok/pretty good punish most of the time and then... return to neutral for however many more minutes until the game is over. I don't get a RC combo, or a veil off, or a super, we just reset back to neutral: an anticlimactic interaction. I don't feel like I've left a devastating blow on my opponent, if anything, it feels like my punish was pretty underwhelming for how much effort I put into getting it.
The combo puts the opponent into disadvantage where they’re the weakest tho, so you can really abuse that and get even more %. Also if you take the match slow neutral isn’t as unwinnable as it feels sometimes
You should definitely talk about comeback characters, I think their concept is super interesting on something that’s outside the bubble of average character types
Yeah, that's some fine online netcode! (Looks away from Strive and looks at Smash Ultimate) WHY DOESN'T SMASH LOOK LIKE THAT!?!?! 26:16 Hey, I'm not the only one to have thought this. If Rollback Netcode supporting 8-player Items High Smash is too ambitious, then by all means implement it just for 2-player No Items Smash. Or if possible, 4-player No Items Smash. Casual players will continue to play either way (and often with their garbage Wi-Fi connections), competitive players can finally have decent online conditions, and anybody (me) who can enjoy both environments will likely understand why things are as such. We just need Nintendo/Sora/Sakurai to stop being stubborn and take some much needed steps into the present.
Robin and to a lesser extent Hero are a nice little sub-archetype of zoners that are incentivized to zone by getting a boost to their approach options (Robin’s Levin Sword and Hero’s buffing spells), and in turn incentivized to approach by using up their zoning resources (Book charge and MP respectively). Hero is especially interesting because his buffs directly use his zoning resource, and directly gains the resources back by attacking while Robin just does it because they are bottom 3 worst runners in the game, and their only killing spell, Thoron, uses more than half of their Thunder tome which is the most important utility tome in their kit. But Hero is a weaker example because of the powerful melee spells he has (Flame Slash, Thwack, Zap, etc.) that let him get in without prepping. Basically, Robin is a resource management zoner, and Hero is a resource management jack-of-all-trades with strong zoning capabilities. Robin is also the rare Ultimate zoner that actually has no strong close-range options for a significant chunk of the game. Levin sword nair is a quick, strong option but it can only be used about 8 times before they lose it, not mentioning the other Levin sword attacks they will use. Bronze sword nair is much smaller and has much less reward.
I think it’s really rad that these videos often include really sincere shoutouts to other videos that inspired it. Giving credit where credit is due while also leaving a trail to follow for people who are really interested in the topic.
The sign is a subtle joke. The shop is called "Sneed's Feed & Seed", where "feed" and "seed" both end in the sound "-eed", thus rhyming with the name of the owner, Sneed. The sign says that the shop was "Formerly Chuck's", implying that the two words beginning with "F" and "S" would have ended with "-uck", rhyming with "Chuck". So, when Chuck owned the shop, it would have been called "Chuck's Feeduck and Seeduck".
@@kokalombia Yeah Freeza gets completely destroyed by system mechanics. I wouldn't be one to say that any character in the game is truly unviable, as long as you run a top tier shell you could easily make any low tier work... but like he's basically unviable.
Lemme say that as a Samus main, I find it satisfying to switch between Zoning, and beating their ass up close by turning her Arm Cannon into a blunt force trauma inducing weapon
Even though Toon Link is used a lot in the video as a bad example of a zoner, I really adore his design on paper. His melee attacks are bad on block, but his projectiles are too weak to get KOs and generally do less damage than his sword. He needs to get in to get the most out of his offense, but that puts him at a lot of risk. So you are left with using your projectiles as a can opener to get through defenses that would otherwise be impenetrable with his lackluster close-range tools. I do think Ultimate's design, especially with mechanics surrounding shield, hurts how well Toon Link's kit is implemented. It makes him less vulnerable when he messes up and makes it far easier for him to just rely on projectiles exclusively. That's a theme I've noticed with the game. It promotes either going in or getting out and doesn't offer a lot of nuance in between. I hope future games in the series put more thought into how pressure works so there can be a good balance of playstyles across the board. At that point I'd be happy, even if people still complained about zoners a lot (because they will regardless).
Something Charles said has really stuck with me. Projectile characters skill check the opponent while execution characters skill check yourself. I don't like relying on how good or bad my opponent is to win. If I'm the better player I want to win. Not because Tommy Jones over there didn't know the counterplay to Samus' charge shot. This has been my TED talk on why I don't play zoners.
To be fair, consistency is supposed to be a factor. That said, projectiles being too powerful without due cause just makes attempts at improvement nothing but frustration because there's no point to it when people will keep spamming projectiles at ALL levels of play and not get punished enough for it. Seriously, Kid Icarus Uprising had ideas for checking projectile spam. Why didn't Smash Bros. in general take notes?
Zoners: "Good lord, what is happening in there?" Ganon: "My anti-projectile options?" Zoners: "Your... Your anti-projectile options? At this time of year, at this time of day, in this match, localized _entirely_ within your moveset?" Ganon: "Yes!" Zoners: "May we see them?" Ganon: "...No." Falcon: "Ganon, we're losing the match!" Ganon: "No, Falcon, it's just my neutral game."
Smash players want to cry when the worst character in the game kills them at 50% with a forward smash on warioware so they ban the entire stage. Meanwhile Melee players play on the jankiest stages of all time instead of banning everything but dreamland and fd.
My answer to most zoners if I feel like my falcon will struggle against them is to play Yoshi, get a stock or percent lead, run away. It’s just barely less boring to run away the whole match then to be sent to losers bracket because I have try to play around projectiles when the game feels like it’s being played underwater.
Another general problem with smash which really helps zoners and hurts the online even more is the buff system where for example if you try to hold shield near ledge if you get hit before the shield comes up you will buffer a neutral air dodge even worse if you try to roll which makes characters with poor recovery struggle to get back to ledge if they can even make it at all and putting them in even worse disadvantage now being trapped on ledge where they are most of the time the weakest
I main big bodies in Smash, so when I get matched up with a zoner, I do the homer fade into the bush and just move on to the next match. Great analysis, though. Gives lots of food for thought for those who struggle with the archetype.
@A B If you're playing a heavy, your matchup against a zoner is going to be one of the toughest uphill battles that exist in Smash Ultimate. Due to your horrendous mobility, you already struggle to get in on their opponent even against opponents not playing a zoner. Navigating yourself into position against even reasonably strong resistance is an absolute nightmare, and unless you're one of the lucky few heavies that has been gifted with a way to mitigate projectile camping, attempting to do so is par for the course. When you do manage get in on your opponent, you also need to worry about your slow start-up moves. It makes it difficult for you to land a hit without a hard read, and the same flaw also gives the zoners that legitimately struggle under close range pressure an actual fighting chance against you at close range. Even if you manage to land the hit against a zoner, you will be able to land only one or two, maybe three, hits before sending them into a disadvantage state, and you don't really excel at keeping your opponent in that state. Your reward for winning an interaction is significantly lower than that of a faster character, who, mind you, will most likely have an easier time getting in and landing a hit once they get in. A lot of this is a problem with heavies as an archetype instead of zoners as an archetype, but it is still a problem, and as someone who played heavies in Smash before switching to what many consider to by the the dark side, being told to "learn the matchup" is comparable to being told to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps". An already difficult task due to the heavy fighter's poor mobility and frame data is made to be as close to impossible as a matchup can feasibly get due to the zoner fighter's strong tools at both far and close range as well as the heavy fighter's lack of interesting tools to engage with the zoner's far range behavior.
It's kinda wild how few characters have effective ways of dealing with projectiles. And what's more hilarious, it's usually the projectile users who also have anti-projectile moves. Great for dittos I guess, but oh man it's so cruel. In the original Super Smash Bros, who are the two characters with projectile reflectors? Yep, some of the best projectile users in the game. Fox can send the annoying lasers and not even worry about any annoying projectiles the opponent has. Ness' reflector isn't as easy to use, but he's also not as good in general so whatever. What about poor Donkey Kong? Captain Falcon? Kirby? Jigglypuff? They got basically nothing on both ends. DK's such an easy target and for a lot of the Smash series' lifetime, he's had no good options to bypass projectiles.
While there was a distinction between zoning and camping, I feel that zoning, camping, and spamming often go together. Example: if you want to zone optimally, you would stick to one side of the stage, and constantly use projectiles. Just a thought I had.
I'd be interesting to hear you cover the comeback archetype in Smash. I can see why people don't like Lucario's fighter design, but I thought the Aura mechanic was pretty cool since Lucario's inception in Brawl.
We don't talk about those don't forget Samus can platform mix you if she's miss her frame 6 get off me /kill move or charge shot doing hella % that she can combo from & charged to grab mix. This shit show of a Frankenstein competitive game will never be balance
Kazuya has been by far one of my favorite characters they've released, and yet I can barely stand to play him online because of how many zoners there are. All of his moves are short as fuck, the laser is too slow to safely contest other projectiles, and any aerial on shield gets you hard punished. Yes, he has a reflector, but it's a double flick input when I usually have a fuckin 15 frame delay online. I get hit by the projectile more often than not when trying to deflect them, and then if you do deflect it, you'll probably just get hit by the boomerang or missile right behind it. Playing Kazuya online is a 50/50. Either you run into a zoner and cry, or you run into any other character and just combo them once, superarmor through a move, and they're dead at 70%. Half comedy, half tragedy.
KOF solved "fireball too good" years ago by making them give your opponent more meter than you, giving everyone roll through generic options, and making it so up closer you can super cancel for more reward on many of them. Also the various jump arcs let you beat/bait the anti air that enforces fireballs.
As someone who doesn't exactly enjoy fighting zoners, I've never gotten the notion that zoning is associated with being brainless or refusing to play the game. Sure, it may look like that's the case, but the way I see it, the zoner's just trying to do what they think is necessary to win the match, just like what anyone would do, and it does require strategy, to an extent. Though that's just my opinion.
One of the most common strategies in video games is to move as much influence of the situation as possible to your own side and deny as much of the enemy's as possible. This is why Snipers are popular for cheaters/bots in gun games. If the other person can't hurt you... then how can they beat you? Why pick a knife over a gun? Basic logic. You have to constantly focus on being lined up for ranged attacks while keeping distance as a zoner... just like Marth's sword tip or learning hitboxes for a melee fighter. It does indeed require strategy... a lot more then people give it credit for not realizing that the zoner has to CONSTANTLY read your moves and line up attacks at where they think you'll be... compared to melee fighters who sweep a large area. All the mechanics and knowledge are there as a zoner, there is just a larger margin for error in the end.
@@FROEZOEN Alright. There are cohesive thoughts going through those players' heads. As said, they're just doing what they think will help them win, even if it is admittedly frustrating as all hell.
A big thing not mentioned in this video is how much damage projectiles do in 1v1. Projectiles are still subject to the increased damage from that, so things like a Wolf laser do close to 10%. It's a perfectly valid gameplan to zone the whole time and rack up damage fairly quickly, then go in for your kill. Compare this to a game like Project M where a Wolf laser does something like 3%. It's not nearly as viable to try to stay away the whole game throwing things when the damage isn't that great. Projectiles in that game are more used to *execute* your gameplan, ie create a path in to start your punish, or force your opponent to approach a certain way and then react, as opposed to *being* the gameplan.
The increased damage even marginalizes the damage reduction by Stale Moves because the damage gets done anyway. But yeah, just increasing the damage so much in 1V1s does indeed aggravate projectiles because they get too much reliability that way.
Yeah honestly I think the 1v1 damage multiplier was a bad design decision, and a pretty cheap way to artificially speed up matches (at times it actually does the opposite since some characters can’t find kills at higher percents). It also makes people less encouraged to approach when they know there’s a possibility that they could be eating like 20% from one attack, and even more off of whatever it’ll likely combo into. Then you also factor rage into it and the damage output gets even more ridiculous.
@@Brawltendo Yes, thank you. Things like combos are even already why I would advocate Kid Icarus Uprising's Power system, as my comment thread would display, just so we can have videos like "Tankscraper tearing down Spamtracks" in a more refined and consistent state. The 1v1 damage multiplier magnifying the damage of the lighter hits by so much is just the poop icing on the turd cake. The multiplier's existence is owed to how people are FAR more capable of kiting than they would be in a chaotic situation. Yet the problem is that power-focused attacks are the bigger victim of the sudden open space. It's that simple. You would expect that a 5th attempt at a formula would realize to more actively disincentivize surplus kiting. What we got is a failure to realize that a normally 30% damage blow dealing 36% doesn't even matter as much as normally 5% damage attacks each dealing 6% even if we ignore the obvious counterbalancing factors. Want to know what makes this even more teeth-gnashing? Well, remember how in Smash 4's All Star Mode that the enemy projectiles' power was sickeningly inflated, due to how the programming with as much was shoddy? If projectiles are benefiting from the multiplier here, that just means that Sakurai WANTS the projectile abuse in 1V1s, because having the projectiles affected and benefiting as a result would require deliberate programming. Really, it's definitely a problem that does warrant calling out the whole concept of zoning.
@@MasterKnightDH All these multipliers have really over complicated the core game mechanics. They’ve slapped so many on at this point and none of them have fixed the issues they introduced with Smash 4’s combo system (and adding more won’t solve it either). We already had staling from the beginning which they completely revamped in Melee, broke in Brawl and added a freshness bonus, and then somewhat reverted in Smash 4 but by adding even more factors into the formula (instead of just like, you know, simplifying the system lol), and they added more in Ult. Then they went and added rage, now we have the 1v1 multiplier and also the short hop multiplier, and probably some others I’m forgetting. Then on top of that they broke the delicate balance of a good combo system by lowering the effectiveness of DI and SDI, and then designed characters around having very specific combo routes that depend only on certain moves. Designing a good platform fighter combo system relies on making a combo interactive for both parties involved. What we have now is not that. The current mechanics make combos either incredibly one sided towards the attacker because DI is so bad, or one sided towards the defender because of things like hitstun canceling and the way directional air dodges work in Ult. Ironically these changes ended up making combos more complex for beginners to execute since they have tighter windows and are also so dependent on stuff like weight, character size, and percentage on top of the myriad of multipliers in the knockback formula that they just keep stacking. I can understand the multipliers they’ve added in order to easily fine tune specific moves without having to make move-specific code, that’s perfectly fine from a development perspective, but everything else just seems like band aid fixes to much bigger problems in the game design. They’re at the very least _aware_ that the problems exist, or else these “fixes” wouldn’t be implemented, but it just seems like they don’t actually know the true root of these issues.
I think something like the pits’ side b which works as a projectile deflector would sorta count as the projectile invuln you were talking abt but yeah it’s not even close to widespread in terms of use among the cast lol
The lack of projectile invincibility on certain moves is something I haven't thought about. However, I'd say this is somewhat mitigated by the games priority system. If moves with normal priority clash, and one does more than 9% damage more than the other, the higher damage move just deletes the lower damage move. Ganondorf's Wizard's foot as the given example actually does effectively beat out most, but not all projectiles.
Thanks for watching everyone! This comment has some important information in it, so please consider clicking "Read More." Before that though, let me know your thoughts on zoners in Smash, as well as any archetypes you'd like to see show up in future polls!
-Second channel: th-cam.com/users/mockrocktalk
-Twitter: twitter.com/MrMockRock
-Twitch: www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch
-Patreon: www.patreon.com/mockrock
-Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock
Correction: I stated that (Dark) Samus' Screw Attack comes out on frame 6. That's incorrect, it actually starts on frame 4 and its initial hitbox lasts until frame 6, I got those confused. Thanks to glob2454 for the correction, and damn do I wish TH-cam still supported annotations.
Disclaimer: This video features the upcoming video game Rushdown Revolt. Vortex Games, the creators of this title, recently approached me to do contracted consulting work for their team. This video is NOT sponsored, and the script was written and recorded before any discussions were had. While I am choosing to disclose the relationship for the sake of transparency, it did not influence the creation of this video, nor any previous videos on the channel that featured either Rushdown Revolt or its precursor Icons: Combat Arena. Any future videos that feature Rushdown Revolt will include an appropriate disclaimer that outlines the specifics of their influence on the project, or lack thereof.
Note: Another TH-camr named Kafonn had previously made a video with a similar concept called "The Problem With Zoners in Smash Ultimate." This video was fairly small, and I didn't know about it until production on mine was nearly complete (a viewer replied to one of my posts announcing this one). Frankly, I'm not sure it would have changed my plans even if I did know about it, the concept is fairly generic and there are already multiple "The Problem[s] With X" videos on my channel, but for the sake of keeping everything above board I do feel more comfortable mentioning it. Theirs is very different than mine, but solid in its own right and worth a watch: th-cam.com/video/iLYFwkq9nRM/w-d-xo.html
always impressed to see thorough disclaimers, great job as always man!
Keep up the good content 👍
Projectiles: broke
Projectile Manipulation: WOKE
Kazyua is a Mishima style fighter, not a shoto. Shoto or shoto like fighters typically have an upper cut that sends themselves upwards, a spinning attack that send them sideways and a fire ball that while can be angled, normally defaults to following the horizontal axis. An auto turnaround function and command inputs doesn't make a character a shoto, otherwise most fighting games would be completely shoto based even though they follow their own archetypes independent of shotos, which are their own archetype.
Thanks for always being so transparent and kind to your viewers and other creators
Min Min’s weaknesses: Bad disadvantage, weak approach
Min Min’s strengths: Doesn’t get hit into disadvantage, doesn’t need to approach
Me when playing Kid Icarus Uprising: Oh, your Power setup is entirely focused on the likes of Energy Charge and Slip Shot to kite me out and hope to laugh at my Super Armor usage? Black Hole. GG.
This just zoner 101. Most of them prefers not approaching
@@captainmega6310 That IS their choice, but the dearth of bravery from them is still something that more games need to call out.
@@MasterKnightDH What ACTUALLY needs to be done is the need more tutorials to help teach younger, less experienced players how to deal with them
@@captainmega6310 How about projectiles be more interactive in the first place. The problem isn't the difficulty, it's simply the boredom they generate. Needing to commit to a binary approach to manage ANY offense is anything but stimulating. When I defeat Projectile Spammer #81,018,001 with the exact same method without ANY sort of healthy deviation beyond luck with attack timing, it feels so hollow to have done so.
At this rate I think you should just make "The Problem(s) with Snake's Down Air"
You mean his frame data as a whole
@@ken7007 I just think it's neat!
Literally just a jpeg of the hitbox named "20%"
for real lmao, whenever I'm playing snake and think about how I can tack on damage quickly, I am holding shield and waiting for the opponent to hit me
Turtle City
Super interesting video, loved hearing a bit about this topic. And, I'm not gonna lie, the idea of giving Ganondorf's Wizkick a projectile-exclusive invincibility, or even just the idea of that mechanic in general, sounds REALLY nice...
Thanks, appreciate it!
Please god (Sakurai) just give Ganon a way to counter projectiles
Knowing nintendo though they probably wont and add another fire emblem character and not waluigi
What if Wizard's Foot reflected
Imagine if up tilt was the same as home run bat. Allowing it to end early makes the bat's smash attack viable if your opponent isn't careful and is a constant threat to play around.
One of the biggest issues with zoners in Smash to me is that when characters have reflectors or other tools that help with dealing with zoners, they are almost always on zoners or characters who already have a projectile. The most clear cut counter to a zone is given to characters who are creating it.
Just shoot them as if they hurt Noire k-sha
@@auser4649
She's playing against Uni, who has a laser that covers a city with of space. She's out zoned.
Mii gunner starts whistling nervously
That's a really interesting realization. Wtf is up with that lol
And some tools don't even make a major difference. Take incineroar's counter. He counters a projectile. And then he still has to make it to the zoner, with his horrible run speed and them shooting they're projectiles.
Also, if it's samus, he'll get close to samus, and get grabbed, and lose revenge.
Ight, imma rushdown a zoner in Super Smash Brothers Ultimate for the Nintendo Switch™️
Damn, the zoner got hands
I think Belmonts are the best designed of the zoners in Ultimate. Their weaknesses actually matter unlike most zoners in the game. And one of the only reasons they're not very good is a relatively easy one to fix, all they need is lower average KO percents and they'd be way better.
Yknow.... yah. You're right.
And a recovery that’s not like bottom 3
Lower axe’s kill percent away from like 50 and yeah
@@SteampunkSavage their recovery isnt even that bad if you use their aerials as tethers
Then he gets you to the ledge…
Remember when parrying a projectile would leave you MORE MINUS than when you just sheilded it
Parrying Sonic's spindash leaves Sonic with an 8 frame advantage, meaning it's literally impossible to punish Sonic with any character
@@flamingpaper7751 Perfect
@@flamingpaper7751 what about frame 1 invincible up b out of shield?
@@daringiconoclast6547 Doesn't matter since Sonic will have 8 frames to get away by the time you can act. And he's in the middle of Spin Dash btw
@@flamingpaper7751 it's like the game wasn't play tested
In the "what's a zoner and why do I punch it" bit, this is why I really like power shielding reflecting projectiles, a universal bit of help against zoning. Balanced by the fact that reflected projectiles do way less damage
Parry reflecting would give characters an extremely easy, noncommittal option to just invalidate prpjectile zoning.
Characters that drop at least a tier with this change:
Samus
Villy and Isabelle
Gunner
Luigi
Belmonts
Dr mario
Sephiroth
Robin
Yink
Tink
Snake
Diddy
I really feel like there’s not much incentive to parry in this game compared to perfect shielding in other Smash games, so adding that reflector would honestly fix that.
@@chrispo7610 I don’t think it would be ‘easy’ as you’d need to either predict or react very fast to parry it nor do I think it would ‘invalidate’ some zoners as there is always counter play. But its pretty much impossible to know how this would effect game balance because it’s all speculation
@@chrispo7610 I’d rather see snake drop a tier. Top 12 Zoner? Lmao.
@@chrispo7610 so you're saying parry reflecting would give characters an extremely easy, noncommital option to invalidate an extremely easy, noncommital strategy to invalidate approaches? hmmm....
This is a certified hood classic
Couldn’t agree more
This is a certified hood classic
It is WORTHY
*Verified user makes low effort comment*
Reaches top comment anyway
@@hideokojima9090 why you hating
14:26 Ganon actually had an anti proyectile move.
In Melee Captain Falcon and Ganon's side B had this "proyectile intagibility" property while having a really not-disjointed hitbox.
It was designed to sidestep proyectiles but lose to normal hitboxes.
Huh realy? Weird.
I've never heard of this, I wish they kept it.
@@rocketleax5 To my understanding, they actually got rid of it in the PAL version of Melee.
That's rediculous! Why would they remove that its so fitting!
Shoto?
It's a regional dialect.
Uh-huh. Eh, what region?
Uhhhhhhhhhh Smash Bros.
Really? Well I'm from Street FIgther and I've never heard anyone use the term 'shoto'.
Oh no no! Not Street Fighter. It's from Ultimate
Smash nerds: “kazuya’s a shoto”
FGC nerds: “Nooo only Ryu and Ken are Shotos because they’re they practice Shotokan!”
Other FGC nerds: “Isn’t Shoto-Kahn a Mortal Kombat character?” 🤔
But...shoto is totally used in Street Fighter's community, and other fighting games as a whole. It's one of the most classic character archetypes out there. It just means something very different from "character that is from a different fighting game"
@@wannabecinnabon okay!
@@wannabecinnabon mario could arguably be considered a shoto in smash. designed to be easy to play, projectile, spinning uppercut...
"Poor predictable Bart, always pick the zooners"
"Good old Zooners, nothing beats them"
"Proyectyle"
"Reflector"
"Doh"
Fox: I have a reflector that can be hold however long I like
Min Min:That's not fair mine has to be timed
ganondorf:you guys get reflectors
also Simpsons
@@Fritz_Haarmann tbf, Fox's reflector is a great move, put on the absolute worst character for it. Fox's main weakness isn't his weight or his recovery - it's his lack of anti-approach tools. If you get the jump on him and come in with a hitbox, what am I going to challenge it with? Nair? Ftilt? So what Fox players do is they move around. Fast run, noncommittal jump Fox's mobility is incredible. But if you reflect something, you'd better hope that reflected projectile hits them otherwise you're going to be a sitting duck without any of that trademark mobility. I co-main Peach and I really wish reflector and toad were just swapped somehow. Would improve both characters tremendously.
There's a few other subtleties I won't get into but I always thought Fox was a bit overrated against zoners. There's a reason he does so poorly online.
Ganondorf in project plus:"Fuck that now i got one!"
@@Fritz_Haarmann I hate how Ganon is given 2 Falcon Punches but nothing to deal with projectiles. Falcon at least is fast and can whiff punish somewhat easily depending on who he's facing.
bug fables
1:30 Jack-Of-All-Trades: Shows a shoto
Shotos: Shows a Mishima
He knew what he was doing
I feel like you picked Dhalsim as a pure zoner, which is true. However, he is the extreme. Think of him more like Min Min rather than Samus. Samus is more equivalent to Sagat. Very strong zoning, not a bad close up game. If you attempt to punish zoning with an unsafe option, he has a DP to punish you. Dhalsim is generally low tier in the newer games because other characters aren't pure zoners. This isn't a problem with just smash. LOTS of fighting games have strong zoners with good reversal "get off me" options.
The thing is, Sagat having a DP is balanced out by the fact his fastest normal is 4f. Doesn't sound like much but it means that he has no safe options to interrupt certain frame traps, meaning he's more prone to melting under pressure. On the other hand, Menat, another zoner in SFV, has a 3f normal that can act as an interrupt but she has no mashable DP to compensate. There is a deliberate balancing put in their movesets to ensure they are not too strong while the opponent attempts to open them up.
And that's pretty par-for-the-course with zoners. I genuinely can't think of a single modern FG zoner that isn't put at a clear disadvantage once the opponent gets in.
Simon: I'm gonna be doing this.
*Simon swings his whip*
Simon: If you get hit, it's your own fault.
Kazuya: Ok, then I'm gonna start kicking air like this.
*Kazuya kicks the air*
Kazuya: And if any part of you should fill that air, it's your own fault.
I haven't had more than one match with Kazuya playing a Belmont. I badly want to teach Kazuya a lesson with him, but the opportunity has alluded me for now.
Simpsons reference?
@@destroyerofworlds4663 1:33
That Justin Wong clip is still one of my favorite ever
You gotta learn!
love it
@@jhayde8868 no no you’re cheating
Welcome to the real world!
@@absoul112 I ain’t gonna be part of this SYSTEM!
“This video was fairly small”
Still a half hr long analysis of a single character archetype 😭
Botw is his standard lmao
Then you look at his 4 1/2 hour botw video
4:58 samus up b (screw attack) is actually frame 4 grounded (frame 5 in the air) not frame 6
Oh, good catch, I'm looking at the frame data now and I actually read the last frame of the initial hitbox as the first one, oops! I'll issue a correction, thanks for the heads up.
I wish it WAS frame 6…
Not just Dalsim, in traditional 2D fighters, moves generally change character's hurtbox, some more than others. Long reaching move usually extend their hurtbox forward so they can be hit if they whiff the attack. For example, Ferry from GBFV, Axl from Guilty Gear etc. They are not projectiles.
I know it sounds weird, but when I heard people said Min Min is too good. I wondered why don't try space it and hit the flying fist. Then I realized there are no hurtbox on the fists. She's Dalsim, right? Why I can't hiy her body part to damage her?
Yeah, I've gotten a few comments like this. I know traditional fighters tend to be a lot more conservative with disjoints than Smash and even though Dhalsim is a bit of an extreme case, you can still hit at least a solid portion of a lot of midrange zoners' tools. I didn't think it was worth mentioning since it was more of a quick "hey even this isn't a true template character" comment, but in hindsight I probably should have been a bit more clear.
I just wish her arms didn’t clank with every move to exist asjshaikene
It would be nice if hitting her arms at least put her in some kind of animation that provides an opening for you, or deals damage to her without making her flinch.
Min mins arms are balanced by the fact that they are so weak to being jumped over
@@sebaschan-uwu You clearly aren't accounting for the existence of the Ramram if you genuinely believe this, but even if the Ramram didn't exist, the slow characters would still struggle to get in. Their ability to jump over the arms is quite limited due to this inherent disadvantage.
Next analysis: Why is Snake's Down Air allowed to even?
How a lot of his shit are
Why is Snake's Up Tilt allowed to kill at 80?
Why is it safe they even buff it
@@willycheez7218 because you play a light character
It’s an amazing move however you can SDI out of it. Still a broken move and I agree.
I disagree with the statement that being able to hit the long attacks of normal-based zoners is rare, Traditional Fighters are a lot more conservative with disjoint than Platform Fighters, simply because it's harder to just avoid them. You can also hit Axl's chain in Guilty Gear, for instance.
Menat in SFV actually does have a decent amount of disjoint, which makes her very good at keeping people out with little risk, however she also gets less reward for landing these attacks and they're not as far ranged for the same commitment. That being said, they had to tone it down because it was too much. Disjoint is strong in these games and so zoners usually don't get it for free.
Yeah, that's fair to some degree, and zoners in traditional fighters tend to be divided into midrange and projectile, whereas in Smash I personally tend to lump midrange more into the swordfighter archetype as its own thing. The parallels aren't perfect and I tried to stick to as basic an overview as possible, but hopefully at least a solid chunk of it makes sense to most people.
Sword fighters arent zoners though
And min min would be a good example of a midrange zoner
"Projectiles are bullshit!"
-Sol Badguy
Sol Badguy for Smash
@@bwoeYT agreed
"Blazing"
Nah I'd rather keep Sol in fighting games he doesn't need to be in party games too.
@@2bussy guess we'll put him in melee instead then
A running joke I’ve had with my friends is
“Link is a swordfighter who can zone. Young Link is a zoner with a sword. And Toon Link is there too.”
Here’s hoping our cartoon boy gets some love in the next game.
But either way, phenomenal video. You perfectly verbalized some of the issues I’ve had with zoners while playing this game.
Toon link's normals are actually quite good and very underrated, the only drawback is his generally low damage output but his frame data and move speed are pretty good and his combo potential isn't half as bad as people think
@@JacobPDeIiNoNi I agree that he’s underrated in terms of viability, but I also agree with MockRock that his overlap with the other two Links is a bit much for my liking.
@@theillusionist1494 I agree I think all 3 could use a moveset overhaul to be more true to their source games to be honest. how well designed link's remote bomb is and details like the master sword beam, gives me hope.
@@JacobPDeIiNoNi I think it would be cool if young link's neutral B should be the sling shot from oot, that functions simmilarly to foxes or falco's lazer, his down b could either remain the bomb as its not very spammable, or be him putting on one of the masks from majora's mask and doing something cool. (up to nintendo.) And maybe make his zair function like his fire arrow's before, make it quicker, so he can continue his combo's as before, but the zair has far less range. I also think that young link should be played more like an aggressive combo character not a zoner, thats how i've always played him anyways, so I'd give him a little bit, not alot just a little more speed to compensate for the lack of range he previously had. I acctually have a problem where I care to much about what people think of me and don't use projectiles when I should because I dont wanna be an "annoying spammer." I think this sounds pretty balanced, but I could be completely wrong and might've accidentally created the next Brawl Meta Knight.
Young link is a *hybrid with a kitchen knife. That is not a real sword.
Many of the reasons cited in this video are why I want the next Smash game to just be a big overhaul of the series. I don't really mind if we get lots of cuts, just try to perfect the mechanics, and change a lot of the older characters' movesets to be more balanced and faithful to their original franchises, some big examples being Donkey Kong and Ganondorf.
Smash bros 3d
I agree, they'll probably never be able to top Ultimate with its roster and breadth of content anyway, so they might as well try something totally different. And the people who aren't into it can just keep playing Ultimate, lord knows Melee players are still doing the same after 20 years. lmao
Give dk mine cart as a reference to donkey Kong country
Give dk mine cart as a reference to donkey Kong country, then maybe his disadvantage won’t be as horrendous
I think the reason zoners need a decent panic option is because of the amount of non-committal mobility in smash. In street fighter, if Ryu launches a fireball, you can either block it, time a forward jump over it, time a neutral jump over it, or use a move that can negate it. With just jumps, double jumps and a single platform you have 3 lanes you can approach from while still being able to airdodge or shield at any time, so while a fireball in sf forces a comittal response, in smash, it really just occupies one lane of approach. So because of that, while in traditional fighters a zoner can keep you out all game, in smash, they're really just delaying your inevitable approach and trying to force you to burn resources or pick a committal option to read and punish with a committal close range option, or shield the attack and punish with OOS. If you wanted a pure zoner with no close range ability, you'd need to give them marvel vs capcom Morrigan levels of oppression and I'd rather that just not exist in the game.
So, I've received a few comments saying similar things, and while I agree that Smash's approach options are way more powerful, it's a 2 way street. Platforms can also be used to cover a zoner from above. Projectiles can all be thrown forward out of a jump, which often covers both grounded and aerial approaches, particularly when done out of a short hop. So yes, Smash has better and less committal jump ins, but it also has better and less committal zoning tools to combat this. And to top it off, while I agree that zoners need close range capabilities of some kind (and said so in the video), they have some of the game's absolute best CQC options alongside a keep out game, which I don't think should be how they work and has been a source of frustration I've heard many people bring up over Ultimate's life.
You say this yet anime fighters are also known for their crazy mobility and zoners generally lack options to get their opponents off them.
Example: Melty Blood has much crazier and more freeflow air movement than Smash, and yet Vlov in Type Lumina (the game's main zoner) still has to rely on system mechanics like shields to contest rushdowns like Arc and Miyako once they get in.
@@MrMockRock Plus, the non-committal mobility also applies to zoners as well. Most zoners are perfectly capable of running to the other side of the stage after you get off the ledge.
@Skallva the hell you talking bout boah
@@pizzaeater8905But where do they move once they’re at the edge of the stage?
Players like mewtwoking make a solid point about stage selection heavily impacting zoner play….primarily the inability to select smaller stages and how they should be tournament legal. The stage selection currently heavily favors zoners
Faster characters and Zoners dominate in that situation.
Bowser is a big target with little space to go while a Zoner can just hit you off stage without much set up and then zone you from there. In fact this almost ensures their zone covers the entire stage letting them be opposite ledge and punish you.
“MAKE IT STOP”
- ganondorf 2021
He's already dead!
2021
That’s what I said when the cat used me as a scratching post
I know the intro isn’t “new” but I can’t overstate how much of an improvement it is to the old one
I don't remember an old one.
@@jonathanlgill there definitely is one, just go back to some older videos
Honestly its not that the old intro was bad but this one is just SO CLEAN
The biggest problem with smash character design for me is not that they are good. But that many aren't fun to fight. When half the roster makes me wanna stop playing its hard to wanna play at all.
You think the king of evil has a recurring nightmare about a death stare kid with a slingshot?
He pretends to be unphased by zelda until she sends a fully charged dins fire his way while he's off stage.
@@emotion_deluxe It's highly amusing to imagine Ganon has the same crippling anxiety that Gohan does in DBZ abridged. Dodging incoming projectiles.
Robin's the zoner I have by far the most experience with having mained them throughout all of Smash 4 and still playing them a decent amount in Ultimate. They are an interesting case in that they're one of the zoners who struggles hardest against other zoners thanks to the formerly lowest now second lowest ground speed, around average to slightly below average air speed, lack of any special tools to deal with other zoners, somewhat slow startup on most of their stronger projectiles and especially poor tools in disadvantage.
Yeah, as a Robin main, I'd say most of my least favorite matchups are against other zoners.
@@Mercurius19 yeah same here
You can use thoron to punish the distance three times but then you’re screwed
Zoners when the opponent has a reflector: "D'oh!"
The reflected projectile just collides with the rest of the spam
Today I was ledgetrapped and camped by banjo for 5 minutes straight
Nah bro then they start playing the game and you realise pacman and young link got better frame data than you
Min Min: I have no such weaknesses
@@KingKayEyeDee Exactly.
14:27 "Wizard's Foot with projectile invulnerability" I'VE WANTED THIS FOR YEARS.
Project m ganondorf does exactly what this video says, his new neutral b is a reflector (plus a float) and his wizard foot cuts through projectiles or clanks if the projectile is too powerfull. Makes playing against zoners sooo much more fun.
I kinda wished vanilla ganon was like this. I kinda wanted ganon to be more different to falcon than what we got.
25:12 I’d say it’s potentially worth it. See also: the beloved Guilty Gear series has a situation where characters are so nutty that everyone has a few characters they hate, even though the balance is enough that every matchup is doable
I would just say it's worth it.
I know my inner Zelda fan is talking right now, but I think if there's ONE character that should be overhauled, it's Dorf. He deserves better than to be stuck with a move-set clone that has nothing to do with him with only Side B and Smashes changed in 2 decades.
Not just a few, most guilty gear players will hate every character that they are not currently playing
I keep getting hit by fireballs whenever I dash in. Am I bad at this game? No, it's the zoners who are wrong.
ahhh yes
@GaZZ its a meme
Maybe if you could instantly shield
As a Ganondorf main since Brawl, the answer to projectiles is blindingly simple:
*Jump.*
@@RacingSnails64 unless it's one of the zoners who can swat ganon with anti-airs immediately after an attack. Samus charge shot to zair or min min side tilt to fair while drifting back wins that exchange. Min min's fair and bair are also safe on shield, making it so that ganon is at a disadvantage against an equally skilled player. If you've been doing well with ganon against zoners, it's safe to say that there is a skill gap between you and your opponents
This video was a perfect summary of how I feel about the design of Smash's zoners. Fantastic production as always!
2:42 I personally would put swordies less in zoning and more under spacing, still putting pressure at a lesser distance while still somewhat falling under zoning
As someone that actively plays Zoners. I genuinely always felt like Rivals of Aether had the right idea of giving every character a reflector. It just felt.... right. It solves so much while needing a lot less effort than other methods to implement.
I would like to see you talk about grapplers. I see a lot of Luigi hate when it only seems to be for his touch of death, if that were removed then I don’t see how he could be considered poorly designed.
Something else interesting is how Bowser and DK got a lot of hate back in Smash 4 for their combo grabs but I just don’t understand it. Yeah, they want to land grabs. They’re grapplers, that’s how they win. They didn’t immediately kill off of them, but landing a few grabs was enough to take a stock. Similarly, Zangief in Street Fighter only needs to land one command grab to put his opponents in a panic because he can follow that up with basically whatever he wants. I just don’t understand why people think grapplers are poorly designed for wanting to land grabs.
Grabs themselves exist as a way to counter shields and counters... how do you counter a grab or someone who has powerful grabs and attacks? DK hits you like a truck if you try to time a dodge for a grab... but if you try to dodge/shield that attack you end up being grabbed and lose a stock.
It is similar to the flaws in zoners... a focus which is contrary to the core game itself.
@Dragoonsoul7878 To my knowledge the Smash neutral triangle works as such: shield beats attack, grab beats shield, attack beats grab. I don't think the flaw is with individual characters, but rather with the game itself, and thats mainly because grab teching is one of the most worthless mechanics put into Smash. Very rarely do you ever see it, and it's based entirely on the frame data of said grab. If both grabs' active hitboxes collide on the same frame, the throw is teched and neither player wins the interaction. I don't think it needs to be said that this is horrendously small.
Back to a game like SFV, you don't have to connect on the same exact frame to tech a throw. The window to tech is somewhere around 7-11 frames (I don't know the exact number) and as long as you use your throw in this window, no matter how far into a throw your opponent is, you will tech it. Smash does not encourage you to challenge a grab with a grab of your own, which makes players resort to less favorable options (spot dodge, attacking, etc.).
Although, I don't think attempting to dodge is as bad as you say it is. Think of probably the purest grappler in the game: Incineroar. He has three kill throws, a combo throw, and a powerful, advancing command grab. However, he's slow as hell and absolutely cannot get in without risk. But that's what grapplers do, they slowly charge at their opponent to end up doing massive damage. The problem with this is that Incineroar can't keep up his advantage state like others can. His awful mobility makes chasing people trying to escape him a challenge, and although his moves do decent damage, the reward for most of his normals is surprisingly low. This completely goes against the grappler philosophy of "land one grab and win."
Looking at it, though, this might just be a problem with the game being a platform fighter. Zangief in SFV has the benefit of each command grab leading to a knockdown which sets him up for command grab loops, as well as good normals and a normal throw to keep the opponent guessing. Incineroar can't maintain that advantage state easily, and he doesn't have any notable tools to keep his opponents guessing between grab and attack. But then how do you even design this in a game like Smash? This is why I think Luigi is a good grappler. Not only is his grab rewarding, but he has a good close range fireball as well as very fast and safe normals. This is what grants him his grab vs. attack guessing game, and landing the right attack (nair, fair, dtilt) can be almost as rewarding as the grab itself. The TOD is obviously a bit much, but I do think Luigi and other grapplers only struggle in the design sense because the Smash team doesn't think that deeply of the archetype.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 SPOT DODGE
No one thinks grapplers are poorly designed they are just annoying as fuck to fight. Luigi is annoying as shit but aside from his kill combo he's a garbage character
@@brendanhughes5679 Luigi has a projectile to bait jumps or shield. He's also killing most heavies with his grap tod.
I remember in early Smash Ultimate that Mii Gunner’s projectiles were really positive on shield and created shield break setups
Yeah Gunner was busted at first but thankfully they toned it down. Now Mii Swordfighter is a better zoner than the Mii that’s designed to be a zoner.
@@peterduprey7286 doubt it. gunners down b s still very positive on shield
As a traditional fighting game player seeing shoto with a picture of kazuya triggers me
Smash players get fg terms wrong all the time. It's funny actually.
It was intentional apparently...
@@azellumius8835 yeah i tihnk at this point people know better, but its still pretty funny to see regardless
I just looked up the origins of the term shoto recently. Apparently it historically refers to techniques using the sword. Lol.
In smash all FG characters have a similar play style, and somehow shoto became the catch-all term for these characters. Even though it's not accurate to the play styles in their own games.
I love getting in on zoners then outloud saying "I lose!"
because in smash ultimate... its true
When i was exclusively a smash player, I thought zoners like Samus and Snake were completely fine to play against
After playing real fighting games for a few years, I realize that smash zoners are just rushdown characters with zoner moves (which is the worst of both worlds)
Its so annoying for a zoner to not die when you get in on them
Except most zoners aren't. Samus has very few good buttons up close aside from zair and up b, Min Min just dies when you get up close, R.O.B has a crap disadvantage and Snake relies on a move to blow himself up to escape disadvantage, and has bad aerial frame data otherwise. These characters all have decent buttons up close bit not as much as, say, Falcon, Terry, Ryu, Ken, etc.
@@vick7868
> samus still has good options (like you said), which means they don't really fall under pressure because they can use their launching moves after you took damage from the zoning
> min min counts, that's one
> rob's disadvantage doesn't matter because you can just shield if they get in and use his down tilt, so you don't have to get into disadvantage
> snake has down air, so out of shield you can just get launched away to continue the zoning
Idk what you mean by "after playing real fighting games for a few years", you already said you played smash, are you saying smash bros doesn't exist and is thus fake? Pretty sure we have a lot of evidence on the contrary
@@DeepfriedBeans4492 You know what I mean. Platform fighters are huge outliers to REAL fighting games
@@hogindoz What about platform fighters makes them FAKE fighting games, it's a different more recent genre but it's still a fighting game. I would understand a term like "classic fighting game" but "real fighting game" implies any others would be a "fake fighting game"
I honestly think the Zoner archetype is actually a good thing for games. It helps players learn how to approach and how to play more safely rather than rushing down most of the time. It can teach a player to be patient.
I also feel like zoning and staying away from your opponent is a more than valid option...When there's thought put into it and when you give other characters counterplay and dynamic options to deal with zoning (or even just one option, one way to counter zoning...). Though, when playing a game with different characters you have to learn how to fight them when you play competitively....I say all of this even though Ganon is my second favorite character to play. (Hero's my favorite...RNGesus all the way.)
However i do agree that Zoning in Smash has quite a good amount of flaws and the way they play in a very repetitive manner....And just the mobility isn't enough to deal with projectiles and that projectile interactions tend to feel very shallow and repetitive in design.....And the Online doesn't help at all too....
Love that Ganondorf in the thumbnail 😳
People who play Zoners even though they are hated: "I just think they're neat!"
As a Samus main, This is 100% accurate
That's me with dark Samus and Ivysaur
i’m at a weird medium because i’m a villager main so i get zoner hate, but i’m not always zoning.
I just play villager cause of the smile on his face as he beats the shit out of his opponents
Duck Hunt here… yeah checks out… I do mainly love the character because I found him and the Duck adorable and also they seemed really creative which is the reason why I like zoners… the right person can make them so great to watch
I personally don't mind the Zoner type in fighting game, especially in smash since smash is so free flow in movement. But since the online is so trash and I wanted to play more serious at a time where you can only play online, it's pretty hard to do stuff and react to it. For me, playing against a Zoner is like figuring out a puzzle and when I figure it out, it feels cool(that only applies to offline though)
As a person who has been playing a lot of 2D fighters, I would love to see Falcon Kick and Wizard's Foot get projectile invulnerability just as they are. Both moves are high committal options with lots of end lag, so the use of these moves to go through projectiles would give these rather niche moves much more use, while still having a good amount of risk considering their end lag.
Their side Bs did have invulnerability to projectiles in Melee, which are both much better moves anyway. Not sure why they got rid of that in later games. Both moves should probably have it though.
Forget Projectile Invulnerability, they should have reflector properties.
Could you do foaties? Also an interesting note is that zoning in Smash involves a lot more movement than in traditional fighters due to traditional fighters generally happening with more limited movement options and more claustrophobic stages
foaties
I think that's just down to platform fighters being mostly about movement next to most traditional fighters. In strive i think axl only needs to worry about movement against chipp ram or millia who have ways to get around his antiairs
foaties
I didn't know fighters in other games were so afraid of Santa clause.
@@petelee2477 *HOH HOH HOH...*
RE: Projectile-immune dashes (14:00)
C. Falcon's side-B in Melee actually does have some projectile-immunity. The frame window is pretty small and players rarely use it on purpose, but that idea was definitely in the developers' minds in 2000. Not sure why they didn't expand on it though.
Ahhhhh he uploads again. Hope life is still treating you well man, always happy to see you doing well. Also this man is so close to 100K, lets get him there
Genuinely a very interesting video, it made for a super informative time. I'm a Samus main but rather than trying to keep the distance between players, I try to focus more on closing that gap with her. It's much, much funner trying to play a zoner as a much more up close fighter.
The main problem I have with projectiles in Smash is that the projectiles tend to be very straightforward and kinda uninteresting. Might be that I got spoiled by Guilty Gear since they've had some amazingly designed projectile games over the years like Venoms poolballs, the Tuning Ball and Eddie (albeit he is a puppet but you get my point). Also known as cool Luma.
Have you ever played Kid Icarus Uprising? Here's a sample video of one of my Boss Battles runs:
th-cam.com/video/4fn7VKUgF_Q/w-d-xo.html
1:07 for a second there, I thought you got Nickelodeon to sponsor you
I'll do it, no hesitation, they can pay me in Spongebob merch.
Well, no, actually I want money. But I'll still do it!
God the quality of your videos is mind-blowing you really are a step above everyone else love your content ! (Especially this one as a Villager main)
Thank you!
I kinda feel bad for how much I like zoners. I just think they're neat. Being able to call people out and get the punish from a large distance is really satisfying to me, and controlling space almost always ends up being my go to strategy no matter who I play. But of course I know people hate it, and people don't tend to want to play with me if I make them mad, so picking up some rushdown characters like Roy or Captain Falcon kinda becomes a bit of a necessity. Lucky for me they're also fun.
"call people out" sure
Zoners are fun in most fighting games, smash is a bit of an outlier with how many character just can't deal with a competent zoner player.
I'm really happy you touched on zoners in an online environment. I honestly don't consider them that problematic in terms of balance or level of intrigue, I just hate how much of an advantage every kind of projectile gets online and it makes me roll my eyes every time I see a young link or a samus pop up in the pregame.
Nobody cares about online when it comes to balancing or competitive play because they all know online is a joke. There's no point in talking about it
I'd say the main two issues with zoners, or more specifically projectiles is that the clash with the gameplay of smash. They set a permanent advantage state where you'd assume a character to be in neutral, and I'm not sure we could get away with making up close encounters a true disadvantage state without making their zoning even more intense.
I'd say more ways to interact with them would be the best choice. I'd argue that, outside of just giving everyone a parry reflector, we could make better use of dodging on the ground. I'd want to add some extra frames of projectile only intangibility to rolls and spot dodging, giving extra safety against these keep out tactics. I'd assume its only fair if they're going to play from safety, we could increase some of the safety against them without having to rework most of the mechanics. Closing the gap is easier but B button heros dont have to give up their options
Finally catching a zoner and being like "why you little..!" As you strangle them with grabs and combos
Except you can't, because after winning rock-paper-scissors 3 times in a row and finally getting close to them, you realize they have a better oos option than you
@@benjaminratthe9904 ganondorf... 😭
I really like these videos, they're analytical and the editing is really nice!
It's always satisfying to win against a extremely coward ness link snake samus simon and richter etc. I dont hate zoners i hate spammers
I play Dark Pit and while I know my neutral b is one of my strongest tools, I also have learned that if I rely on it too heavily, people just get around my habits and I'll lose. Projectiles that are well designed should be good, maybe even a bit spammable, but not indisputable. You should be able to approach against them if you have enough skill, regardless of how good the opponent is, if they only use the one move. It should never be as easy as one move, but I guess some characters didnt get the memo
True, I was playing against the campiest banjo player ever today. They just spammed projectiles and ran away for 5 minutes. We ended up going to sudden death and I barely beat him, but it felt great.
Zoning in Smash necessarily involves spamming because even heavy projectile characters like Samus and the Belmonts only have like three projectiles to choose from. The Belmonts in particular also auto-lose if you get inside their optimum range, so trying to keep you at or beyond their whip sweetspot is their only winning gameplan.
@@imperiallarch7610 yeah but what im talking about is that for example a samus just spams down b charge shot and side b and doesnt aproach with dash attack grab or f-air even if samus has the necessary tools for appoaching
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 i sincerely respect pit mains i actually main bayonetta pit and palutena and yeah but there are a lot of character who can spam without getting catched like samus she can avoid punishes by using down b evrytime she charges neutral b or link who can use bumerang before spamming arrow for it to hit you when you try to approach to him
I feel like this video encompasses almost every problem I have with zoner characters in Smash. Another problem more tied to Smash's mechanics is a lack of a universal resource like super meter.
More traditional fighting games tend to use meter in order to break up the gameplay loop, and this can be key in making a zoner matchup feel more dynamic. Throughout a match, you can never feel like you have the game in the bag because meter is constantly building. Zoners often need meter in order to perform reversals, but doing so also means sacrificing powerful options that can help them increase their leads. It also gives their a opponent a way to land a powerful punish once they get in or a situational method of by passing the zoner's options in some way, again tying back to your point on "tension" and "catharsis"--you build up meter throughout the match, and then release it once you get the opportunity. It helps that zoners tend to be pretty frail, meaning one key opportunity can be enough to win you the game.
Smash lacks this sort of explosive dynamism. No meter means that playing the neutral feels like the non-zoner is straight up losing right off the bat. I'm not gaining anything from playing neutral, there's no reward for pushing through the wall of hitboxes. Then once you break through the opponent's zoning, you get an ok/pretty good punish most of the time and then... return to neutral for however many more minutes until the game is over. I don't get a RC combo, or a veil off, or a super, we just reset back to neutral: an anticlimactic interaction. I don't feel like I've left a devastating blow on my opponent, if anything, it feels like my punish was pretty underwhelming for how much effort I put into getting it.
The combo puts the opponent into disadvantage where they’re the weakest tho, so you can really abuse that and get even more %. Also if you take the match slow neutral isn’t as unwinnable as it feels sometimes
You should definitely talk about comeback characters, I think their concept is super interesting on something that’s outside the bubble of average character types
Congrats. It happened
Yeah, that's some fine online netcode!
(Looks away from Strive and looks at Smash Ultimate)
WHY DOESN'T SMASH LOOK LIKE THAT!?!?!
26:16 Hey, I'm not the only one to have thought this. If Rollback Netcode supporting 8-player Items High Smash is too ambitious, then by all means implement it just for 2-player No Items Smash. Or if possible, 4-player No Items Smash. Casual players will continue to play either way (and often with their garbage Wi-Fi connections), competitive players can finally have decent online conditions, and anybody (me) who can enjoy both environments will likely understand why things are as such. We just need Nintendo/Sora/Sakurai to stop being stubborn and take some much needed steps into the present.
This video made me realize that the summit stage has an aurora borealis centralized entirely within its skybox.
Thank you MockRock :)
Robin and to a lesser extent Hero are a nice little sub-archetype of zoners that are incentivized to zone by getting a boost to their approach options (Robin’s Levin Sword and Hero’s buffing spells), and in turn incentivized to approach by using up their zoning resources (Book charge and MP respectively). Hero is especially interesting because his buffs directly use his zoning resource, and directly gains the resources back by attacking while Robin just does it because they are bottom 3 worst runners in the game, and their only killing spell, Thoron, uses more than half of their Thunder tome which is the most important utility tome in their kit. But Hero is a weaker example because of the powerful melee spells he has (Flame Slash, Thwack, Zap, etc.) that let him get in without prepping. Basically, Robin is a resource management zoner, and Hero is a resource management jack-of-all-trades with strong zoning capabilities.
Robin is also the rare Ultimate zoner that actually has no strong close-range options for a significant chunk of the game. Levin sword nair is a quick, strong option but it can only be used about 8 times before they lose it, not mentioning the other Levin sword attacks they will use. Bronze sword nair is much smaller and has much less reward.
I think it’s really rad that these videos often include really sincere shoutouts to other videos that inspired it. Giving credit where credit is due while also leaving a trail to follow for people who are really interested in the topic.
The sign is a subtle joke. The shop is called "Sneed's Feed & Seed", where "feed" and "seed" both end in the sound "-eed", thus rhyming with the name of the owner, Sneed. The sign says that the shop was "Formerly Chuck's", implying that the two words beginning with "F" and "S" would have ended with "-uck", rhyming with "Chuck". So, when Chuck owned the shop, it would have been called "Chuck's Feeduck and Seeduck".
Based and sneedpilled
Why are you saying that here?
What is this a reference to?
24:54
>Footage implies Freeza is an effective zoner.
Lol.
>vs z broly
i mean Unknown is pretty cracked with the villain squad
@@null6292 Freeza vs. Z Broly is my vote for the worst matchup in the game, Broly's favor obviously
Freeza is an effective zoner...
Fighterz is bullshit to zoners tho, put that man un any other game and he would be monstrous
@@kokalombia Yeah Freeza gets completely destroyed by system mechanics. I wouldn't be one to say that any character in the game is truly unviable, as long as you run a top tier shell you could easily make any low tier work... but like he's basically unviable.
Look, it's DBFZ, zoners basically don't exist. But if I'm going to be showing a bunch of modern fighting games, how am I gonna exclude it haha
definitely do comeback next
Lemme say that as a Samus main, I find it satisfying to switch between Zoning, and beating their ass up close by turning her Arm Cannon into a blunt force trauma inducing weapon
Boo 🍅🍅🍅
Even though Toon Link is used a lot in the video as a bad example of a zoner, I really adore his design on paper. His melee attacks are bad on block, but his projectiles are too weak to get KOs and generally do less damage than his sword. He needs to get in to get the most out of his offense, but that puts him at a lot of risk. So you are left with using your projectiles as a can opener to get through defenses that would otherwise be impenetrable with his lackluster close-range tools. I do think Ultimate's design, especially with mechanics surrounding shield, hurts how well Toon Link's kit is implemented. It makes him less vulnerable when he messes up and makes it far easier for him to just rely on projectiles exclusively. That's a theme I've noticed with the game. It promotes either going in or getting out and doesn't offer a lot of nuance in between. I hope future games in the series put more thought into how pressure works so there can be a good balance of playstyles across the board. At that point I'd be happy, even if people still complained about zoners a lot (because they will regardless).
I still maintain that they never should have gotten rid of power shields reflecting projectiles
Something Charles said has really stuck with me. Projectile characters skill check the opponent while execution characters skill check yourself. I don't like relying on how good or bad my opponent is to win. If I'm the better player I want to win. Not because Tommy Jones over there didn't know the counterplay to Samus' charge shot. This has been my TED talk on why I don't play zoners.
To be fair, consistency is supposed to be a factor. That said, projectiles being too powerful without due cause just makes attempts at improvement nothing but frustration because there's no point to it when people will keep spamming projectiles at ALL levels of play and not get punished enough for it.
Seriously, Kid Icarus Uprising had ideas for checking projectile spam. Why didn't Smash Bros. in general take notes?
That is not even remotely how zoners work but go on lol.
@@yungmuney5903 Care to explain to the class then? I'm listening.
1:34 Shotos with a Kazuya image? Oh boy this is gonna be controversial
Narrator:
"It was."
Had a physical reaction when I saw it
It's crazy how good some of the zoning moves are, like villager's sling shot can be so broken at some points, it's like Bart Simpson cracked up to 11.
Great video! Awesome articulation of the argument beyond “projectiles are annoying”
Zoners: "Good lord, what is happening in there?"
Ganon: "My anti-projectile options?"
Zoners: "Your... Your anti-projectile options? At this time of year, at this time of day, in this match, localized _entirely_ within your moveset?"
Ganon: "Yes!"
Zoners: "May we see them?"
Ganon: "...No."
Falcon: "Ganon, we're losing the match!"
Ganon: "No, Falcon, it's just my neutral game."
I really enjoy that kazuya is the representative of shotos lol
did he do that just to piss FG players off lmao
Even though he’s not a shoto 😂
@@iron_serpent_2293 isn’t kazuya one of Tekken’s introduction characters?
@@zegreenemachine8160 ye but thats not what shoto means, its not totally clear cut but generally shoto refers to when someone is a clone of Ryu
@@moddedpan4252 Ryu is not a shoto either. He does not practice Shotokan Karate.
24:20
Finally, someone realizes there isn't enough small stages
Smash players want to cry when the worst character in the game kills them at 50% with a forward smash on warioware so they ban the entire stage. Meanwhile Melee players play on the jankiest stages of all time instead of banning everything but dreamland and fd.
@@broom2839 I think you're confused between small stages and close blast zones
My answer to most zoners if I feel like my falcon will struggle against them is to play Yoshi, get a stock or percent lead, run away. It’s just barely less boring to run away the whole match then to be sent to losers bracket because I have try to play around projectiles when the game feels like it’s being played underwater.
10:09 That's a very dead Chandelure, unless the Empoleon drops it and tries to grab. Then he'll get Overheat in the face
Another general problem with smash which really helps zoners and hurts the online even more is the buff system where for example if you try to hold shield near ledge if you get hit before the shield comes up you will buffer a neutral air dodge even worse if you try to roll which makes characters with poor recovery struggle to get back to ledge if they can even make it at all and putting them in even worse disadvantage now being trapped on ledge where they are most of the time the weakest
I main big bodies in Smash, so when I get matched up with a zoner, I do the homer fade into the bush and just move on to the next match.
Great analysis, though. Gives lots of food for thought for those who struggle with the archetype.
@A B If you're playing a heavy, your matchup against a zoner is going to be one of the toughest uphill battles that exist in Smash Ultimate.
Due to your horrendous mobility, you already struggle to get in on their opponent even against opponents not playing a zoner. Navigating yourself into position against even reasonably strong resistance is an absolute nightmare, and unless you're one of the lucky few heavies that has been gifted with a way to mitigate projectile camping, attempting to do so is par for the course.
When you do manage get in on your opponent, you also need to worry about your slow start-up moves. It makes it difficult for you to land a hit without a hard read, and the same flaw also gives the zoners that legitimately struggle under close range pressure an actual fighting chance against you at close range.
Even if you manage to land the hit against a zoner, you will be able to land only one or two, maybe three, hits before sending them into a disadvantage state, and you don't really excel at keeping your opponent in that state. Your reward for winning an interaction is significantly lower than that of a faster character, who, mind you, will most likely have an easier time getting in and landing a hit once they get in.
A lot of this is a problem with heavies as an archetype instead of zoners as an archetype, but it is still a problem, and as someone who played heavies in Smash before switching to what many consider to by the the dark side, being told to "learn the matchup" is comparable to being told to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps". An already difficult task due to the heavy fighter's poor mobility and frame data is made to be as close to impossible as a matchup can feasibly get due to the zoner fighter's strong tools at both far and close range as well as the heavy fighter's lack of interesting tools to engage with the zoner's far range behavior.
It's kinda wild how few characters have effective ways of dealing with projectiles. And what's more hilarious, it's usually the projectile users who also have anti-projectile moves. Great for dittos I guess, but oh man it's so cruel.
In the original Super Smash Bros, who are the two characters with projectile reflectors? Yep, some of the best projectile users in the game. Fox can send the annoying lasers and not even worry about any annoying projectiles the opponent has. Ness' reflector isn't as easy to use, but he's also not as good in general so whatever.
What about poor Donkey Kong? Captain Falcon? Kirby? Jigglypuff? They got basically nothing on both ends. DK's such an easy target and for a lot of the Smash series' lifetime, he's had no good options to bypass projectiles.
"I don't need my Smash Meter anymore!"
*Burns meter on the opponent at 0%*
Great video. I appreciate the inclusion of Pokken Tournament footage. Also glad I caught the announcement of the second channel.
While there was a distinction between zoning and camping, I feel that zoning, camping, and spamming often go together. Example: if you want to zone optimally, you would stick to one side of the stage, and constantly use projectiles. Just a thought I had.
I'd be interesting to hear you cover the comeback archetype in Smash.
I can see why people don't like Lucario's fighter design, but I thought the Aura mechanic was pretty cool since Lucario's inception in Brawl.
What about the fact that in ultimate, most get off me tools are also kill moves, and most zoners already have no trouble killing?
We don't talk about those don't forget Samus can platform mix you if she's miss her frame 6 get off me /kill move or charge shot doing hella % that she can combo from & charged to grab mix.
This shit show of a Frankenstein competitive game will never be balance
Kazuya has been by far one of my favorite characters they've released, and yet I can barely stand to play him online because of how many zoners there are. All of his moves are short as fuck, the laser is too slow to safely contest other projectiles, and any aerial on shield gets you hard punished.
Yes, he has a reflector, but it's a double flick input when I usually have a fuckin 15 frame delay online. I get hit by the projectile more often than not when trying to deflect them, and then if you do deflect it, you'll probably just get hit by the boomerang or missile right behind it.
Playing Kazuya online is a 50/50. Either you run into a zoner and cry, or you run into any other character and just combo them once, superarmor through a move, and they're dead at 70%. Half comedy, half tragedy.
Haha pocket go brrr
zoners: *cry about it*
every kazuya player: *pain*
KOF solved "fireball too good" years ago by making them give your opponent more meter than you, giving everyone roll through generic options, and making it so up closer you can super cancel for more reward on many of them. Also the various jump arcs let you beat/bait the anti air that enforces fireballs.
That clip at 10:04 had me rolling cause of how true it is when fighting Chandy. I’m so glad people remember Pokken.
As someone who doesn't exactly enjoy fighting zoners, I've never gotten the notion that zoning is associated with being brainless or refusing to play the game. Sure, it may look like that's the case, but the way I see it, the zoner's just trying to do what they think is necessary to win the match, just like what anyone would do, and it does require strategy, to an extent. Though that's just my opinion.
One of the most common strategies in video games is to move as much influence of the situation as possible to your own side and deny as much of the enemy's as possible. This is why Snipers are popular for cheaters/bots in gun games.
If the other person can't hurt you... then how can they beat you? Why pick a knife over a gun? Basic logic.
You have to constantly focus on being lined up for ranged attacks while keeping distance as a zoner... just like Marth's sword tip or learning hitboxes for a melee fighter. It does indeed require strategy... a lot more then people give it credit for not realizing that the zoner has to CONSTANTLY read your moves and line up attacks at where they think you'll be... compared to melee fighters who sweep a large area.
All the mechanics and knowledge are there as a zoner, there is just a larger margin for error in the end.
Look at smash online and tell me there’s a cohesive thought going through the average younglink/ness players head.
@@FROEZOEN there is a cohesive thought and it's "haha projectile hit, neuron activate"
@@sonny259 "Oh no they're within half the stage of me, but start rolling until they fuck up!"
@@FROEZOEN Alright.
There are cohesive thoughts going through those players' heads. As said, they're just doing what they think will help them win, even if it is admittedly frustrating as all hell.
A big thing not mentioned in this video is how much damage projectiles do in 1v1. Projectiles are still subject to the increased damage from that, so things like a Wolf laser do close to 10%. It's a perfectly valid gameplan to zone the whole time and rack up damage fairly quickly, then go in for your kill.
Compare this to a game like Project M where a Wolf laser does something like 3%. It's not nearly as viable to try to stay away the whole game throwing things when the damage isn't that great. Projectiles in that game are more used to *execute* your gameplan, ie create a path in to start your punish, or force your opponent to approach a certain way and then react, as opposed to *being* the gameplan.
The increased damage even marginalizes the damage reduction by Stale Moves because the damage gets done anyway. But yeah, just increasing the damage so much in 1V1s does indeed aggravate projectiles because they get too much reliability that way.
Yeah honestly I think the 1v1 damage multiplier was a bad design decision, and a pretty cheap way to artificially speed up matches (at times it actually does the opposite since some characters can’t find kills at higher percents). It also makes people less encouraged to approach when they know there’s a possibility that they could be eating like 20% from one attack, and even more off of whatever it’ll likely combo into. Then you also factor rage into it and the damage output gets even more ridiculous.
@@Brawltendo Yes, thank you. Things like combos are even already why I would advocate Kid Icarus Uprising's Power system, as my comment thread would display, just so we can have videos like "Tankscraper tearing down Spamtracks" in a more refined and consistent state. The 1v1 damage multiplier magnifying the damage of the lighter hits by so much is just the poop icing on the turd cake.
The multiplier's existence is owed to how people are FAR more capable of kiting than they would be in a chaotic situation. Yet the problem is that power-focused attacks are the bigger victim of the sudden open space. It's that simple. You would expect that a 5th attempt at a formula would realize to more actively disincentivize surplus kiting. What we got is a failure to realize that a normally 30% damage blow dealing 36% doesn't even matter as much as normally 5% damage attacks each dealing 6% even if we ignore the obvious counterbalancing factors. Want to know what makes this even more teeth-gnashing? Well, remember how in Smash 4's All Star Mode that the enemy projectiles' power was sickeningly inflated, due to how the programming with as much was shoddy? If projectiles are benefiting from the multiplier here, that just means that Sakurai WANTS the projectile abuse in 1V1s, because having the projectiles affected and benefiting as a result would require deliberate programming.
Really, it's definitely a problem that does warrant calling out the whole concept of zoning.
@@MasterKnightDH All these multipliers have really over complicated the core game mechanics. They’ve slapped so many on at this point and none of them have fixed the issues they introduced with Smash 4’s combo system (and adding more won’t solve it either). We already had staling from the beginning which they completely revamped in Melee, broke in Brawl and added a freshness bonus, and then somewhat reverted in Smash 4 but by adding even more factors into the formula (instead of just like, you know, simplifying the system lol), and they added more in Ult. Then they went and added rage, now we have the 1v1 multiplier and also the short hop multiplier, and probably some others I’m forgetting. Then on top of that they broke the delicate balance of a good combo system by lowering the effectiveness of DI and SDI, and then designed characters around having very specific combo routes that depend only on certain moves.
Designing a good platform fighter combo system relies on making a combo interactive for both parties involved. What we have now is not that. The current mechanics make combos either incredibly one sided towards the attacker because DI is so bad, or one sided towards the defender because of things like hitstun canceling and the way directional air dodges work in Ult.
Ironically these changes ended up making combos more complex for beginners to execute since they have tighter windows and are also so dependent on stuff like weight, character size, and percentage on top of the myriad of multipliers in the knockback formula that they just keep stacking. I can understand the multipliers they’ve added in order to easily fine tune specific moves without having to make move-specific code, that’s perfectly fine from a development perspective, but everything else just seems like band aid fixes to much bigger problems in the game design. They’re at the very least _aware_ that the problems exist, or else these “fixes” wouldn’t be implemented, but it just seems like they don’t actually know the true root of these issues.
I think something like the pits’ side b which works as a projectile deflector would sorta count as the projectile invuln you were talking abt but yeah it’s not even close to widespread in terms of use among the cast lol
THAT INTRO! Great timing with all the character attacks, and the claw animation? SLICK
The lack of projectile invincibility on certain moves is something I haven't thought about.
However, I'd say this is somewhat mitigated by the games priority system. If moves with normal priority clash, and one does more than 9% damage more than the other, the higher damage move just deletes the lower damage move.
Ganondorf's Wizard's foot as the given example actually does effectively beat out most, but not all projectiles.