Smash's BS Comeback Mechanics (Ft. Peanut & Armadillo)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 พ.ค. 2022
- Super Smash Bros. Ultimate features some really powerful comeback mechanics across a lot of its roster, including several near the top of the tier list. Today let's dive into what makes them tick, assisted by Peanut and Armadillo, top Little Mac and Lucario players respectively! After you're done, please check their social media out here:
Peanut's TH-cam: / peanut_ssbu
Peanut's Twitch: / peanut_ssbu
Peanut's Twitter: / peanut_ssbu
Peanut's Instagram: / peanut_ssbu
Peanut's Metafy: metafy.gg/@peanut
Armadillo's TH-cam: / @armadillo_lucario
Armadillo's Twitch: / armadillo_lucario
Armadillo's Twitter: / lucarmadillo
Armadillo's Metafy: metafy.gg/@Armadillo
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Second channel: / mockrocktalk
Twitter: / mrmockrock
Patreon: / mockrock
Twitch: / mockrocktwitch
Business email: MockRockYT@gmail.com
Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock
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TimeBolt: I used TimeBolt on this video to massively increase the speed of editing, it's a program that cuts your audio and video up for you. I consider it to be one of the best things I've ever bought and highly recommend it for tons of applications on TH-cam, so I asked the team to join their affiliate program. Use my affiliate link and coupon code to support the channel AND get a discount on some fantastic software, it's a true win-win!
Affiliate link: mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart...
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Music used:
"MockRock Is Here (Relaxed)" - MockRock
"MockRock Is Here" - MockRock
"Final Deadnought 1" - Freedom Planet OST
"Tropical Resort (Act 3)" - Sonic Colors OST
"Pressure Cooker" - VVVVVV OST
"Main Theme" - Door Kickers: Action Squad OST
All original music, as well as its stems, are available for download to patrons, TH-cam members, and Twitch subscribers
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Thanks for watching!
#SuperSmashBros #SmashUltimate #Nintendo - เกม
Thanks for watching everyone, and a huge thanks to Peanut and Armadillo for joining me! I've included links below, please be sure to check them out, and let me know your thoughts on the video, it was a bit of an experiment but I feel like it turned out pretty well?
*Peanut's TH-cam:* th-cam.com/users/Peanut_SSBU
*Peanut's Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/peanut_ssbu
*Peanut's Twitter:* twitter.com/Peanut_SSBU
*Peanut's Instagram:* instagram.com/peanut_ssbu/
*Peanut's Metafy:* metafy.gg/@peanut
*Armadillo's TH-cam:* th-cam.com/channels/ZupZS85fiI6ElFNv45BIqw.html
*Armadillo's Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/armadillo_lucario
*Armadillo's Twitter:* twitter.com/LucArmadillo
*Armadillo's Metafy:* metafy.gg/@Armadillo
*Patreon:* www.patreon.com/mockrock
*Second channel:* th-cam.com/users/mockrocktalk
*Twitter:* twitter.com/MrMockRock
*Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch
*Teespring:* teespring.com/stores/mockrock
*TimeBolt affiliate link* (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/
Disclaimer: this video features footage from Rushdown Revolt, a game which I've performed paid work for in the past. They had no influence in the production of this video.
Thanks for watching!
Armadillo’s TH-cam link doesn’t work
@@jacopodeldeo4308 it’s in the description
@@DoMorrMusic okay thank you
@@jacopodeldeo4308 no problem
@@jacopodeldeo4308 Fixed, thank you!
The analysis from all three parties in this video was very good and insightful, but Peanut's many goofy tags were the real MVPs of the vid 😤
Shout out to Legume YT.
OldManWaDi was the best one
poonut and peanners!!
Humungaloid
I think Steve's diamond, along with Hero's passive buffs could be more accurately described as snowball mechanics, such as the character is actually more likely to get it when already winning. They are also mechanics that encourage the user to camp while punishing the opponent for doing the same thing, which is where a lot of the frustration may come from when fighting them.
Wellput. Honestly, I feel like Steve would be a better-balanced character (and funner to watch) if they just removed Diamond from him outright. That'd make there be much less incentive for the Steve to camp.
@@jonathanlgill honestly, it's just the mere fact diamond is way too overturned especially compared to its source material to begin with, which is crazy but hey, director's Sakurai, he has a "vision" for these things.
@@jonathanlgill well and in minecraft diamonds aren't even the strongest ore you can find. That's Netherite. The fact that diamonds are so overpowered is ridiculous from a gameplay perspective when something stronger exists in game
@@darknesswave100 But netherite didn't even exist in any official version of Minecraft until update 1.16, and diamond tools were the most powerful kind of tools Steve could acquire throughout most of Minecraft's very long history. It's certainly the one more players are going to be familiar with.
I think Sakurai made the right call to not include netherite.
hero is not as egregious as people might think, they need to deal with it in the same way Samus camping out Charge Shot, Hero at heart is still a zoner and laggy aerials you have to either rush him down or outrange him further.
In theory, I'm a bigger fan of comeback mechanics on more well-rounded characters. Someone with a bit of everything and a comeback mechanic as a way to help beginners get into the game and learn its basics while not getting completely bodied every time. They can figure out what type of playstyle from that character, and then move towards learning other characters who are much more geared towards their style of play. In smash though, comeback characters are often attached to a specialized niche. Little Mac is ground focused bait and punish. Cloud and Sephiroth are big sword characters with different mobility (ok they do different things but they are still clearly within a niche). Wario is a combo machine. Kazuya like you said is all about explosive damage output.
Only characters that immediately come to mind as more well-rounded characters with such a comeback mechanic are Lucario and his Aura, which we all know has its problems, and Terry (Terry is probably my least played character so take this with a grain of salt. I'd imagine he fills this well-rounded with comeback role since several of his moves taken from his home series fill a variety of roles fundamental to the game, but I'm once again not that familiar with the character). Lucario's Aura sometimes punishes players for being ahead, the cap is reached insanely late, and if Lucario is behind in stock the effects are even more extreme. Terry although seeming well rounded (once again, I've played like 2 minutes of Terry, idk shit about this character), has the issue of not feeling like 95% of the roster from a control standpoint. Your ability to branch out to other characters is more limited.
Also I just want to point out I love Peanut's idea for a reworked Star Punch system.
Fair points, I'd personally put Cloud into more of that well-rounded category as well but I get where you're coming from. The Star Punch idea is actually fantastic as well, I was really impressed with that!
I have to agree with Mock that Cloud belongs in the well-rounded category as well.
While he is a big sword character like you said, I don't think you can really call him a zoner like Sephiroth or Byleth, since he doesn't have any sweetspots on his moves encouraging him to keep his distance like they do, and he has good mobility in basically every department that lets him close gaps pretty easily.
But he's not really a rushdown character either; he sits pretty firmly in the middle of the gradient between those two extremes, imo.
In general, the only thing I'd say Cloud really lacks in terms of being a good starter character with something for everybody is a good grab game.
@@ReitheOffbeatOtaku Yeah in hindsight yeah Cloud is one of the all-roundeders with a comeback mechanic, but for the point I was trying to make I'm not entirely sure he's the type of character you can easily branch out from (though one could definitely switch to a more specialized sword character with ease after learning Cloud as a beginner).
Another point to Cloud's credit, he is one of the most popular characters with such a beginner friendly comeback mechanic, so new players are more likely to gravitate towards him. Someone like Lucario for instance is from a more popular series, but one that has several other popular pokemon on the roster (also Aura isn't that beginner friendly imo). Terry is an all rounder but one that few new players are that familiar with.
So yeah I take back what I said about Cloud, he's honestly a prime example of what I want from comeback mechanics. A beginner friendly character with well balanced stats and moves, plus a simple to understand comeback. My issues with the other characters still stand though.
Terrys comeback mechanic is awfully designed. Clouds is def a better example
Nailed my complaint about Sephiroth's wing, he's so light that you often die as soon as you get it (unless you're way behind and get it at 30-ish %). Also, in doubles, you sometimes lose wing when your teammate KOs an opponent and you suddenly lose a jump and can't recover.
Lol I never knew that. Losing a jump because a teammate KOs someone is kind of funny though
Seph needs more weight.
He needs to be like lower mid weight like pit and dark pit, not feather weight.
Why do folks want him to be lighter? It's obvious that he'd be annoyingly broken if he was heavier
Always happy to see Peanut's presence continuing to increase in the community. Armadillo offered some intriguing stories and critiques regarding Lucario.
Kudos to your superb work as usual, MockRock!
Thank you!
The only thing I'd change about Cloud's Limit would be to make an indicator that tells the players when the timer will run out. That way it's a lot easier to plan around the move since you know when you'll lose it.
Idk I feel like that’s just part of the challenge. You need to learn the timing. Just like Snake’s C4 blows up on its own after a certain amount of time. I don’t think it needs a timer because that takes all the suspense and strategy away
@@rouge939 Counting to 15 isn't really a skill I value in my fighting game. I would argue that being able to visualize how much longer he has limit for would lead to more meaningful decisions for both parties in how they play around the mechanic or use.
@@yoyoguy1st ok but there’s literally a timer on screen already. Just use that
I always expect to see Limit's bar going down as it gets close to running out, probably because I play Robin. I think it would work fine, with the bar losing color in the last 5 (or 3) seconds before it disappears.
@@givecamichips Exactly. I'm a Cloud Main and I think having it run down the way a Final Smash meter does would be a perfect natural way of showing when you are about to lose Limit. I also think Nathan's point about how the C4 blows up rather than just despawning is a good point for why Cloud's Limit should have indicator.
21:06
There it is. The recurring gag of MockRock complaining about the Pits.
The reason I started playing Rosalina was because I realized that my biggest weakness is that I really like just rushing in and puahing buttons. And my brain kind of automaticly shut off. So I needed a character that made me actually relax and think about what I was doing. And Rosalina really fit that niche.
People really find their mains in the wildest ways
You said it. One of my many mains is Inkling, but I've never player Splatoon and know very little about it. I only got into playing the character because they're one of the earlier characters you unlock and I liked their speed and mobility.
In a funny way, I think Little Mac's comeback mechanic could maybe be improved by feeling more like Punchout on the Wii.
What if instead of a meter to a single KO, it had three sections instead so it can be used earlier or built up more? And then maybe this meter can be spent to chain together specials, including the size and up specials to give power combos or recovery
The distance on aerial up special could be three times the current amount with three star punches.
Sounds more like Super or NES Punchout than Wii, but I like it
Even Peanut agrees!
I think Mac should be a character with decent tools for about any matchup, so how you win depends on how well you know and can exploit the matchup, just like how beating a Punch-Out boss comes down to how well you know them and then executing your best strategy as well as possible.
Give him strong anti-air, means to deal with projectile zoners and normal-based zoners (read: swordfighters), good rushdown potential, but not a ton of strong KO options. Make Up Special have a lot of distance in the air at first, but then decrease with successive uses to represent how getting back up gets harder with each knockdown.
The Star Punch could be part of this, rewarding you with stars for specific actions, like punishing an Incineroar's attempt to use Revenge, interrupting a Smash attack, etc. to grant Mac a solid KO move, which I think his toolkit should otherwise be lacking.
What if he had some of the attributes of his custom moves combined on his specials like palutena except for up especial?
Imagine his side b ignoring shields with certain conditions or his down b having different behaviours depending of the move is used
Funnily enough, despite the fact that you lose it on whiff, Kazuya's Rage Drive is actually more egregious in Tekken than it is in Smash.
It has massive range, evasive properties and is plus on block, making it very powerful in the neutral, which is one of the areas where Kazuya struggles the most.
it also comes at a risk too, cus even tho it’s plus, u lose ur rage. and u can dickjab kazuya if u know he’s gonna use it. it’s better to use rage drive in combos so you can guarantee you go into devil
Oh yeah dont forget it gives him devil on activation. Given how quickly Tekken rounds last it doesn't make much of a difference
One day MockRock will make it all the way through a video without complaining about Pit's neutral air
As if
or Corrin headgear.
Or Ganondorf.
I think the respawn invisibility mechanic is done phenomenally in brawlhalla. When you respawn, you have a timer, but the invisibility also ends the second the invincible player does an attack, which can be beat out by a proper read. This makes it a lot better then other games since the second the invincible player choses an option, they lose it, and combined with the unique boost gained from having a weapon in brawlhalla, meshes well with the game, since weapons haven't spawned most of the time once you've respawned.
One thing that's always bothered me about most of these comeback mechanics is how they interact with stocks. Games are won and lost on stocks, but comeback mechanics are most often based on percent, often resulting in a supposed "comeback mechanic" actually preventing the opponent from making a comeback by giving your character an advantage despite already having the stock advantage in the game. The only characters I know with this fact actually taken into consideration are Lucario and Sephiroth, every other character's mechanics stuff the opponent out of making a comeback, which can be even more frustrating to lose to.
So basically, they aren't "comeback" mechanics lmao
that makes me wonder, how lucario´s and sephiroth´s CM work on a timed battle, it´s affected by score then?
My problem with Lucario's aura is that his moveset is way too reliant on this mechanic and as a result, it doesn't feel fun for the Lucario player to have to wait until they take 80% so they can play the game and it doesn't feel fun for his opponent to be punished for winning. Meanwhile, Terry or Sephiroth's comeback mechanics feel more like an extra spice to keep things interesting.
So much this. There's no reason for Lucario to start at like, what, 0.6x power at 0%?
Just make him start with the power he has at 70%, and… honestly that'd go a long way.
Maybe something like
0% = 1x
100% = 1.2x
190% = 2x
That'd kinda make Lucario not pitifully weak at low percents and still retain his absurd power when he gets to high percent, except the 100% mark where other comeback mechanics happen? Lucario is just getting started, and just with a very slight buff.
That way he's less "rewarded for losing" like many players put it right now, and more "rewarded for surviving".
This might be completely busted but I dunno, tweak the numbers as you will but get rid of the nonsensical debuff he has at low percent. Even Kirby doesn't copy a 0% Aura Sphere
My idea was the give him moves that use bone rush that have longer range but normal or worse than knockback scaling and turning base aura into what's currently 50% then maxing out aura at what's now 100%, with the new percentage max being 90%.
The opponent isn't punished for winning, they are punished for not securing the kill and being hit leading up to it.
At that point you deserve to get bodied.
You get the kill or are placed in disadvantage, the bare minimal to be decent at smash.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 on a fundamental level, yes. Lucario becomes powerful when he is at high percentages, so the opponent has the job of KOing him before he can do anything. It's clearly how his mechanic is intended to work.
However, when it comes to the way this design is executed, it has room for improvement since usually either Lucario or his opponent come out of the match frustrated. I'd argue that the reason for that is because of how extreme this mechanic is. It'd be nice if Lucario didn't become as powerful with aura but as a tradeoff, he isn't as limited without aura.
It's also weird because it doesn't really reflect anything about the Pokemon Lucario. He can learn Aura Sphere, sure, but he's not at all defined around the move.
To fix aura, I'd have his default be at 1x rather than (0.67x? Something like that) at 0%, and I'd make his down b swords dance, which would give him an aura boost if the animation plays out without you getting hit. Think just the animation double team has, but with swords.
I also wish he'd use bone rush for some of his normals, maybe f tilt and fair, it would really help with his range issue.
Pokken comes to mind. Lucario has some hype juggles in that game that are primarily extended through Bone Rush.
hella nice vid as always
I remember an idea a pal of mine through out in regards to respawn invincibility at one point. that being if the foe throws out any sort of attack during the period in which they're invulnerable, they'd lose said invulnerability right there, and the actual period in which they're invulnerable would stay for it's normal time if no attacks are thrown out (if that all makes sense lol)
That actually does make sense and I like the concept!
If I recall correctly, that's how Brawlhalla respawn invincibility works.
@@thearius4254 Yup, was about to comment just that. First frame after trying to hit something, you lose invincibility
Honestly, since Brawlhalla already does this, Smash should also do something like this.
It's just right. *You're not supposed to just punish an escape move with a really laggy move just because you're invincible due to respawn.*
Respawn invincibility lasts about 2 seconds. It's honestly fine, it's been a series stable since the old days. Opponents just need to play evasively for two seconds.
While I agree that Lucario’s aura ability is a poor match to his presentation in the mainline Pokémon games, I don’t have a problem with how it is actually implemented in Smash and don’t have any interest in major reworks. On the other hand, that 3 star rework for Little Mac’s KO punch is immediately and obviously a massive improvement that both makes him a better and more interesting character (without being more oppressive at the casual level) AND aligns better with his game series.
I'm actually ok with Pokemon deviating from their representation in the mainline games because in those games, every Pokemon, move, ability, and stat is completely interchangable and serves as more of a checklist than anything, which is probably why there are so many fangames. The Pokemon feel like they're made for Smash and deviating from the game's static nature benefits them more than anything.
Also definitely agree with Little Mac with how Star Punches would benefit him in terms of faithfulness and functionality. It would a comeback based on the player's skill rather than a strange amalgam of taking and doing damage which needs to be camped out unless whiffed.
Wasnt aura power scaling with dmg in one of the movies
@@togarashi6437 giving pokemon a 4 move command mechanic like the original game would be really lame
@@YOSSARIAN313 Exactly, they can't exactly adapt a turn based game directly into a platform fighter
@@togarashi6437 i agree with characters not having to be just like in their games just look how bad pokemon trainer was in brawl because of his mechanics that are actual disadvantages like getting his pokemon tired during the match and their type attributes(yeah the devs implemenred that in brawl ) the type attribute made ivysaur be the worst of the 3 pokemon because he could recieve more dmg and knockback from explosive fire moves that are present in the cast. And none of the other pokemon in the game had those mechanics despite being from the same franchise what were they thinking?
Edit: also they just implemented a triangular relation of the three pokemon, which means squirtle can recieve more dmg and knockback from ivysaur's grass moves but not from pikachu's electric moves.
I've definitely said this before, but I absolutely LOVE your dives into mechanics and elements of gaming that I have no knowledge of. I learn stuff AND you're perspective is interesting! And entertaining :D
Hey thanks, appreciate it!
I feel like the biggest problem with Lucario's Aura is not that it rewards you for being behind, it _punishes you for getting ahead._ That fact that you lose aura at a stock advantage means you are *actively punished for being better than your opponent* and why that was allowed I have no idea.
its either kill or be killed with him and terry, the more they are at kill percent the more dangerous they become, so its forcing both to take a risk and end the fight as soon as possible, and it punishes players who just throw safe non committal attacks.
This channel is just PERFECT. The intro and quality control are some highlights, but the real fun is watching MockRock complain about Pitboxes and Ike (I also think he needs a projectile). Also the guest appearances from Almond and Hedgehog were awesome.
Q: will you put out any Rivals of Aether analysis content? It’s probably the most underrated game I’ve played.
Not quite the point of the video, but damn I forgot just how cool Lucario looks in play. Aura Sphere is straight up one of the coolest moves, in terms of how it functions in a character's kit, in the entire game imo.
Personally for the reason that the Pokemon Mewtwo, Greninja, Incineroar, and to an extent Lucario is more fun for me to play in Smash is due to them being built for the game itself rather than simply be a Pokemon tossed in the game.
Mewtwo being an Akuma style tradeoff, Greninja being the classic Ninja style of being fast with great kill options if you can make the kill happen, and Incineroar being a more patient type of fighter with great poking buttons. Lucario arguably just plays as basic as can be, but a lot of presence and focus was obviously given to Aura.
To an extent they represent the Franchise they're from the least compared to the other Pokemon, but they feel a lot better to play as in Smash than Pikachu or Trainer. An example a lot of people will hate me for is Banjo being easily the most disappointing Smash character. It's all just Banjo. Playing as exactly as everyone dreamed off. But to balance the fact that he's essentially a projectile+swordy, none of his moves kill, no combos, the only means of killing feasibly is by forward smash, offstage gimping or Wonderwing. All of which to me is just unfun, even if the references of the moves are great. And then I play Plant who is also a camper to an extent, but more of a trap-zoner like Snake that forces opponents to make a move for you to take advantage off. Its why Plant has amazing buttons like a 2 frame jab and an intangible uptilt for example. It helps you in a situation you'd need a fast button or a situation where the opponent would try to approach from the air. This mental battle that the character capitalizes in to force the approach is why I find Plant fun.
Its for that reason that the Pokemon stick out to me as the more fun characters of a specific franchise. They're pretty much an open canvas with a lot of what the Pokemon can do more up to the viewer's interpretation since the base games are focused more on playing as a chess game with a myriad of additional move quirks and numbers over visual fidelity. Sakurai merely crafted the given Pokemon into Smash Characters in a way that works and it's why I love playing as them, even when I get fucked over by Mewtwo's tail hitbox at times...
I think this goes to show that nobody hates Lucario's aura more than Lucario players.
The idea with gaining stars with parry gave me an idea. What if the parry window for Little Mac was a little wider, making it more reliable to use and gain stars through. Making it so you have to use stars to get the real power out of him, similar to how ink works for Inkling.
But that also gave me an idea to apply to all characters; what if the parry window was a little wider for slow and heavy characters, and little narrower for fast and light characters. Also apply less shield stun for heavy characters but more shield stun to lighter characters. This wouldn't change any knockback, damage, or any moves, but could help slower characters to become better, and faster characters to not be as good. Balancing it out a bit.
8:54 THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING
Though I think it would be better to get stars by armoring through things, or maybe beating out moves normally.
I was thinking roughly the same thing, though I was thinking more hitting the opponent when they're in the middle of a Smash Attack [when the move has active hitboxes, so clipping them when the move's effectively done and there's no real risk doesn't count], and you don't actually get a star if you armored it because it'd honestly be a bit cheap, as well as encourage casual Mac players to recklessly and senselessly throw out Smash Attacks for an easy reward
@@WhimsicottFanatic hitting people in the middle of people smash attacks?
Well i guess you won't see that mechanic.
All people ever do is spam aerials/ projectiles or run their character gimmick.
Honestly Little Mac should have stamina like in Punch-Out aswell, where whiffing attacks or spamming Smash attacks decrease Mac's stamina, but landing blows can increase his stamina like in the original games...I think
I've only played Punch-Out on the Wii and barely played it I dunno how the game works. I jut know stamina is a thing and I'm surprised it's not a mechanic in Smash
@@kittybaby6242 it was for Pokémon trainer in brawl, most are glad they took it out
I don't think Mac should keep his armored smash attacks honestly, they're already amazing in terms of frame data and power. I'd rather he get more well rounded power on the ground and in the air so the optimal way to play against him isn't camping.
I think the best approach to the Star mechanic would be getting one by hitting opponents during the start-up of an attack, the start-up or end lag of a dodge, while they're taunting or by perfect shielding. Then you lose them if you get hit by an attack that does at least 5 or 6% damage, because losing stars getting poked by Megaman lemons or Fox's lasers would encourage opponents to camp.
I like comeback mechanics whenever they’re not just a “Press B to win”
Cloud and little Mac lol
@@DANCERcow Nah you have to land Mac's which is basically impossible
@@willycheez7218 not it isn't. Mac is the worst character in the game because of how difficult he is to use! (Wait what?) 🤣
@@DANCERcow Yes it is. No horizontal range at all and the laggiest move ever
@@willycheez7218 it is still the most broken over powered easy mode move/s
I love the star punch take of peanut, it would make playing mac WAAAAY more fun
Comeback mechanics are awesome to bring extra hype and tension to a match but when they're SO good that they polarize the match and promote camping (such as KO punch) they should be reworked
I love the part where the two players discussed why they love their characters, makes me remember why I love this series. I main Snake because when Brawl came out I was just a kid and I thought it was so cool this super realistic character I had never heard before was fighting Mario and Pikachu. Fast forward to today, I've played most of the MGS series and have a greater respect for his character. Plus his playstyle can be so volatile and dumb that he is always a joy to play. I feel like I'm playing as a stage hazard.
Hero's RNG bullshit which is fun in all the dumbest ways caused me to fall in love with the Dragon Quest series.
Pretty much every Smash fan has a game series that Smash turned them onto.
I think that Peanut's and especially Armadillo's reasons for why they decided to main those characters are super interesting, and something I relate to. You see, Wario is my second favorite character to play behind Bowser, and yet I don't care at all about Waft (and I suck too much at landing Waft in the first place), despite it being an important part of Wario for some people. I play him because of his unique air physics, very good aerials, funny animations, the crazy stuff we can do with bike, as well as some other moves like Chomp. Sometime, we main characters for other reasons than what defines a character for other people.
Tfw I google your name for the first time in weeks and a new video was posted 34 seconds ago lmao.
Well, this will make my Covid recovery go 25 minutes faster. Thanks man!
Good luck!
For me wario’s waft is the best of these because it essentially makes him this game’s “win condition” character
For those who don’t know, that type of character originated (or made popular) by street fighter : third strike’s urian and chun le
What makes a win condition character unique is that unlike other characters, at the beginning of any given battle they’re in their weakest, and their entire game plan is to keep the opponent at bay till they get their win condition
They tend to get flack but personally i love the tense narrative they provide
I love the recent direction of this channel. You really feel like the Turndownforwalt of the Ultimate community, I’d love to see you become more integrated in the ultimate scene similar to Walt’s rise in the melee scene when he was signed to PG. These interviews were really well done, so that’s a great start.
Brawlhalla, in all reality, has a pretty good take on I frames. As long as you just move, you keep your I frames. But pick anything up or attack, and you lose your I frames
20:37 The last thing I expected in a MockRock video was a South Australian Smash 4 clip, but boy am I glad to see us get some recognition. We still have Nikes' (guy in the back on the left) reaction as an emote in the discord server
loved the interviews in this episode! keep up the great work
9:03 Peanut 100% says knockmac there right?
You never miss with these videos man, love your work!
The worst thing about this channel is the high quality comes with infrequent uploads.
I love the addition of MockRockTalk because it has the slightly lower production value, but still the thoughtful content we expect from the main channel. It helps tide me over in between main channel uploads.
Good job as always.
I really hope the Miis are covered next. They’ve had little to no discussion and I think they have a lot of untapped potential in the competitive scene. Or maybe I say that because I main Mii Sworfighter. But regardless it’d be neat to see a Mii analysis lol
The only remainder of custom moves apart from explosive flame, one of the coolest concepts in smash IMO
I actually agree with Terry's GO mechanic being kinda poorly designed because despite the fact that it works exactly how it does in the classic Fatal Fury games, it gives you too much leniency to spam them and I've won games purely off of Power Geyser and Buster Wolf, yet I love using Terry and using Super Special moves. If I could change it to make it much more balanced, I would give Terry the meter mechanic from the KoF series instead where he could build it throughout the match via taking and dealing damage and then expending it by using Power Geyser or Buster Wolf.
As a Terry player myself, I'd argue that those two moves be significantly buffed if they are to be limited like that. Buster wolf isn't even a command grab and is probably the most easily punished move in the game, and I swear Power Geyser just decides to go the other way every now and then, even when I know for a fact that I did the input perfectly, and in the correct direction.
@@inertjohnjunk Definitely not most easily punished. It's not too bad if whiffed
@@willycheez7218 Maybe not when whiffed, but when shielded... Hoo boy... It doesn't even cross-up shields, so any, ANY, out of shield option is viable... Hell, a partially charged Fsmash is viable, the end lag is that long.
@@inertjohnjunk Yeah. But that's why it's not a neutral tool, it's to be comboed into
@@willycheez7218 It is absolutely a neutral tool, just not in the traditional sense. It is a threat. Teabagging as Terry at GO! state will very often cause people to make mistakes. These mistakes can ironically lead directly into a successful, raw, Buster Wolf. That or simply forcing your opponent to give up stage control to avoid a possible raw Buster Wolf. I've won plenty matches never using Buster Wolf or Power Geyser, the threat alone was enough to play mindgames on my opponent.
That and armoring through rapid jabs, and Charizard/Bowser fire breath is hillarious. The sheer terror of a Bowser at 100+ percent trying to stop a Terry, as his hand reaches out from the inferno, going "Are you okay?"
A few comeback mechanics i find cool and that i think smash could draw inspiration from:
Sparking Blast (Dragon Ball FighterZ): Sparking Blast is a single-use mechanic that buffs your character in many ways, it gives a 20% damage boost, the ability to jump cancel any normal, a vanish without the hit, and constant blue life healing. The duration of Sparking Blast also becomes longer if you have fewer characters alive, similarly to Marvel 3's X-factor, but that doesn't necessarily mean you need to save it for the last character and use it to come back: it can be used early to keep a key character on your team alive, use the damage buff to secure a kill on an opponent's key character, spend it to do massive damage if you manage to catch an assist in your combo, etc. It has way more apllications that just being a pure comeback mechanic and has interesting decision making behind it.
Overdrive (Blazblue): Similarly to Sparking Blast, Blazblue's Overdrive is a buff that powers up your character in unique ways for a limited time, which gets extended the lower your health is, but it has a whole new dimension that Sparking lacks: it works on a cooldown, which carries over from one round to the next. This means that, for example, spending your Overdrive at the end of round 2 after having won round 1 means that if you lose round 2 despite spending your Overdrive, you'll enter round 3 without access to Overdrive, which is a severe disadvantage, and might lose the game before getting it back. Additionally, it's possible to use your overdrive as a Burst to escape a combo for free, but this will make the cooldown even longer and not give you any of the Overdrive's benefits, which creates even more decision making with it.
Rings (Sonic Smackdown): Sonic Smackdown is a fanmade Sonic fighting game with a ring mechanic, where causing a smash hit (a groundbounce or a wallbounce) will make rings fly out of your opponent, allowing you to heal a bit of life. It's nowhere near as complex as the other mechanics i talked about, but rings are a nice bonus reward for successfuly fighting back from a difficult position, it feels good to heal a bit on top of landing a big combo after having been forced to defend for a while.
Neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
Hearing Armadillo and Peanut talk about how they got into their main is so great to learn about
Really interesting look at the competitively legal comeback mechanics, but I am also very interested to hear your thoughts on the more “casual” ones.
The critical-health spirit effects, underdog boost, and final smash meter would be really fun to hear about for a tie-in video, if that suggestion hasn’t already been made.
Honestly amazing points you brought up about these mechanics. Honestly I have a very polarised opinion on comeback mechanics as the champs I play don't really have comeback mechanics, so I see them as annoying heaps of the time, while also understanding that the characters are able to be more unique because of them. I love the chat, but there was one mechanic that you didn't bring up that I personally consider a sort of comeback mechanic, being shulk's monado arts. It is the one comeback mechanic that I personally consider perfectly implemented, due to the effects being able to go back on shulk, such as if you go to buster, then eat up a combo and just took 60%, or both sides being able to die at 50% due to smash art. I love monado arts and with how often he appeared in the video, felt like one you might've missed. Loved the vid though.
You have one of the cleanest intros on TH-cam! It’s nice and quick, but feels heavy, love it
Wow! Peanut and Armadillo are some big names. Ur channels really grown dude. So cool to see. Also really liked ur BotW analysis.
4:45 oh, so that’s why people are so much more hostile to the idea of higher-tier characters being “nerfed” than they are lower-tier characters being “buffed”
I almost never watch to the end of videos (especially long one's) but this one was done so well that I did, great job!
The motion tracking on those camping tents was just *chef's kiss*
i love your edits man keep it up 👍
your music choice is good as ever, VVVVVV truly a masterpiece
This comes from someone who mains Terry. Go should not continue to last as quite literally I am getting supers. It should be like Rage art I can use one or the other have to make my decision on the spot depending on what's going on and try to win from genuine out plays 0 Buster wolf or power geyser. If they were weaker (Let's say the power of a half charged up smash for example) I would be fine with that but they have the power of Terry F smash. As someone who uses that move for a lot of hard reads it is VERY strong so having ways to confirm into an F smash is annoying. In conclusion I wish Go was either a once per stock state like Rage art except I get Buster wolf or Power geyser and get strong power or I get Go forever but get weaker kill power and lower damage
I play lucario, and I always have seen my enemy camping as a viable strategy to a move I have. Just like people will defend if I attack, they will camp if I can potentially hit kill them with a funny forward smash in neutral. And also, the speed you get with extreme speed and knockback are so huge that, even though it might be way more risk than reward, I enjoy countering my opponent camping my up special on neutral on stage, flying at them at mark IV and hitting their faces with not as much damage but enough knockback to sent them off stage for a minute, breaking their camping tactic. Lucario is really fun to play
Man. Armadillo makes me want to play more Lucario.
Especially considering Lucario has one of, if not the smallest, playerbase in competitive Smash.
IIRC Tsu dropped Lucario to play another character with a comeback mechanic (Terry). Correct me if I'm wrong.
This was very cool great job MockRock comeback mechanic has somewhat improved over the years in smash since Lucario debut however, the thing that makes it rough is that it also makes it harder for characters who don’t have a mechanic or a in game mechanics like parry doesn’t work with all characters parry works as a out of shield options and not all characters can benefits from it
The biggest change I'd make to Mac is pushing him more in the "dodge and counter" direction that's actually representative of his home series. Mac is limited in terms of concrete references because he's just a boxer, but you can definitely replicate the feeling of being an underdog that exploits openings. One thing I'd do is make his counter work a little more like revenge, in a sense. It's really fast, like near being a surrogate air dodge, but with few active frames as a reference to the tight timing for star opportunities in the punch out games. Instead of being strong on its own, it's a weak counter hit that gives Mac a star. The star can be hit out of him, I'd say doing so should be about as hard as it is to knock the ko punch out of him right now, and it doesn't go through shields or be as strong as ko punch, but he essentially uses it as a big finisher. He should have a lot of confirms into it. As far as his air game, I think his aerials and recovery should be about the same level of bad as jigglypuff's ground moves. He's definitely no air fighter, but he isn't just completely doomed if he's forced into the air
Calling Ko punch a comeback tool is almost as bold as calling Ko punch a mechanic in the first place. You know it's a well designed character when you can get your big super move that takes at least half a stock to charge to a single hit before you can launch it, or a well timed jab if you do.
I like comeback mechanics for variety and giving the casual side more of a boost to play characters at low level (believe me I was one back then minus items but only Smash Balls) but ones heavily polarizing to encourage lame play are not executed well imo. I played Mac in Smash 4 (which I played nearly everyone) and a little in Ult.
Mac's a definite case of the most polarizing yet imo, poorly designed one for both Mac and the opponent in the game. Sure Mac is the kind of extreme ground character by design that NEEDS one desperately. The one for Mac allows him to perform a one time one button press unblockable attack which also bypasses counters and kills astronomically early which DOES make sense for the ground aspect but makes the match up while already heavily encouraging the use of camping ensure more of that is done when he gets it to not lose the stock which makes it further less fun for both sides, Mac and the opponent. It is also more frustrating to lose to at high level when you lose a stock after taking three mid damage hits than the uppercut which can also be in a guessing game causing a 50/50 which again, you cannot counter or shield on whether you lose the stock. It makes you feel often outplayed by the character rather than the player since the player didn't feel like they earned it, most of time as both hits from Mac and damage taken to him fill it up, the idea mentioned in the video being earning stars for stronger attacks per parry would be much more fun for both sides and would better be for referencing Punch Out (face it, no matter how they continue trying with Mac's current design, they'll never achieve perfection in making the match up or any other match up complete fun) as Mac would be able to parry the projectiles thrown at him to earn the stars while attempting to gain advantage which would help him more with getting in and playing the shield game. Getting into tumble or when the meter runs out makes you lose it which already sucks for an already flawed character. The fact it bypasses shields and counters makes is the biggest gripe I have, limiting key defensive options (while they are still there but a lot less) for the opponent in disadvantage to it and read opportunities from the Mac player. Thanks P to the Nut for clarifying how Mac loses it, I was stumped on how the other one than the timer happens for a while. Btw good idea for not using it as bait, maybe I'd do that the next time I play as Mac. Hoo boy that was a big writeup
My theory about the design of Aura is that it's Lucario's determination to fight growing stronger as he's losing. Aura is Lucario's life force, his willpower, and so it makes sense that if Lucario is still willing to continue his best to fight, this reflects in his Aura as he is at a disadvantage, but he refuses to give up.
As for how it works in Smash, I felt like it was perfectly balanced in Brawl when it was the only factor to his damage and knockback, but when Rage got added and Lucario got double the boost now from both Aura and Rage it made it unbalanced for both Lucario and the opponent. I feel like if they don't reduce or remove Rage as a whole, then Lucario's Aura should only change the size of his attacks or gives him new effects to his attacks, but I feel that if anything happens then they would balance Aura out so Lucario gets a good comeback boost, but he's not reliant on it, pretty much how you all feel in the video
But overall, thank you for this video and also stating that comeback isn't a bad thing with the negative bias part, I'm glad that it talks a bit about things that hardly ever get brought up
Some really neat visuals in this video, huh? (As we've come to expect.)
I'm a huge fan of comeback mechanics, to play with and against, so this was a great watch. It's interesting how you have to (or ought to) start playing around them earlier than they actually kick in - Lucario might not be super dangerous now, but do you really want to use Bowser's neutral B when a smash would KO him anyway? That's a lot of aura!
dude ive been waiting for this for a while
One interaction will always ring clear in my head.
Back when i use to main sonic, I fought this sephiroth online. I was winning by a hefty margin and caught him jumping past ledge one too many times, hitting him with the cleanest back air I could, sending him offstage without a jump. He would have died, but the fucker took blastzone percent, got wing, and made it back.
Should i have edge guarded him? Prolly- i won at the end of the day so I don’t care as much, but it’s still an upsetting moment.
Great video, as usual! :)
I'm sure you've partially covered this topic but I'd like to hear you thoughts on the perception vs reality of the tier list.
Do you think that getting killed early by a High Tier character feels more irritating when the character you play is not a High Tier
When I complain about Falcon my opponent may reply with a complaint about Ridley and that never sits right.
Most Low/Mid tier characters NEED strong moves to read/wipe punish High Tiers to make the game worth playing. To me
I think a lot of the more extreme comeback mechanics in this game are curbed somewhat by the variable amount of time it takes to kill in smash; players can work to prevent these mechanics from happening at all with strong play, and it makes way for some more extreme mechanics. Since it has counterplay I think it's generally fine and adds to the character of the game, even if it's a bit polarizing.
Might be biased though because Terry's polarizing comeback mechanic is a decent amount of what drew me to the character. I think Mac's mechanic is the only one handled purely poorly as I think the mechanic needs to be a more persistent boost for living longer instead of one chance to hit an outrageous attack.
When you talked abt the invincibility system in other fighting games I want to mention real quick that brawlhalla is actually slightly different. You actually lose the invincibility in brawlhalla as soon as you do any attack or pick up an item or weapon so it’s not as safe in brawlhalla
In Punch Out you typically get a star by interrupting your opponent or hitting them while they taunt at you so maybe getting stars for hitting the opponent's smash attack start up or by hitting a taunting opponent. Most of Punch Out's gameplay is about dodging and then counterattacking so maybe a spot dodge attack similar to Terry would make Mac more faithful to his own series. Mac feels morel like your opponents in Punch Out than he does as Little Mac.
The Star Punch idea kinda GOATed I won't lie
This is in no way related to the topic of this video, but hearing a song from the Freedom Planet ost in your video made me unreasonably happy.
I'll say Marth works extremely well with rage. It allows him to kill insanely early and since his moves are very safe and he has a good recovery... When played in a very cautious fashion, it's easier to live until higher percents, too.
Though soft-comeback mechanic are an interesting concept. I was thinking I’d see more stat change or boost mechanics: Shulk Monado Art, Wii Fit Deep Breathing, or even Hero Mana. Still loved the video and the guests 8.5/10
Noting that the Belmonts have clunky movement just like the original games was such a good observation! I never would have realized that, but it really makes so much sense in the grand scheme of things!
I was always really good at playing from behind and my favourite thing to pull off in smash is a comeback from the brink of defeat. Then i started maining lucario, for the same reason as armadillo, i loved the movement. And it completely ruined comebacks for me. Playing from behind used to be such a rush and winning from behind used to feel so good, but now it just makes me feel bad. And it makes me play worse cause my desire for victory is tainted.
12:52, In the arcade game and super punchout, you do use the KO punch. it works a bit differently but it wasn't almost completly made up for smash
I've said this once and I'll say it a thousand times until my jaw falls off: FOR THE LOVE OF ARCEUS, REWORK LUCARIO ALREADY!!!! GET RID OF AURA!!!!!
Honestly, the Smash team might want to let go of Aura because it’s so iconic. BUT FOR THE LOVE OF ARCEUS, NERF IT WITH THE POWER OF A BILLION SUNS!!!
I could have sworn that Jokers meter doesn't fill when he does damage, only when he takes damage
Meanwhile clouds and little mac's work as described
It doesn’t, though it might fill adjacent to him doing damge if he’s behind
Good spot. It fills when he takes damage, and also passively over time though very slowly.
For lucario, I would lessen the gap between the floor and the base for aura damage and increase the damage ceiling, but move the cap to a much higher percent. That way lucario won't be a sitting duck at the start of a match and the gamble of taking hits to be more powerful is much riskier, but more rewarding.
For Little Mac, I would make taking damage remove some of the KO meter instead of add to it. It's more accurate to the source material and encourages engagement on both ends to both earn the KO punch and sabotage the opponent.
For cloud, I would give the limit breaks super armor. You already have a limited time, why can they also be snuffed out entirely with a quicker jab?
For Joker, I would overall have Arsene take more time to come out, i.e. slower automatic meter gain, less fill up with rebel's guard, and damaging removing more of the gague while Arsene is active. This way, Joker has to really earn Arsene, and even then a skilled player will make sure he never gets the chance to use it.
Really stretching the definition of a comeback here, but Hero should have the ability to automatically regain MP removed. The only way to get more is by dealing damage. This would encourage less camping, more aggression, and smarter resource management.
Hero should have 50mp at the start of matches.
I've been a Lucario main since Brawl, and let me tell ya', Brawl was when Lucario was most fun to play imo. I don't know if Lucario still had that dumb "His attacks get a .6X damage modifier while he's at no/low damage" thing back then, but it certainly didn't feel like it. It felt like you could still body someone with him just fine at no or low damage, taking damage just made it get easier. Nowadays, it really does feel like taking damage is damn-near mandatory just so his attacks can actually do enough damage and inflict enough knockback that you actually have a chance to get some KOs in. Unfortunately, since Lucario's a light character, by the time he's able to dish out some decent damage, he's also usually one or two good hits away from being KOd himself. Also, I don't recall the distance his Extreme Speed carries him scaling to his aura mechanic originally (it's been forever since I last picked up Brawl, so I may just not remember). In Smash Ultimate, however, at high damage, you can legitimately start out near the blast zone on one side of a stage, use Extreme Speed, and accidentally yeet yourself OVER the stage and fall into the blast zone on the opposite side (I should know, I've had that happen to me before...).
Honestly, to fix Lucario in Smash Ultimate, I'd say start him out at 1X power just like everyone else, make the scaling for his aura not as drastic, make only his damaging moves scale with aura, and make it so that being behind on stocks doesn't factor into the aura mechanic (since apparently it does, I actually didn't know that, why did they make that design choice?).
What was Brawl Lucario like?
I’m sad you didn’t talk about Onslaught at all. That move has to be the worst comeback mechanic even after they buffed it.
Let's be real here, no one likes Onslaught and we'd rather ignore it than acknowledge it
mockrock using freedom planet music?? now that's something i had never noticed before, and i'm loving it
(final dreadnought 1 is amazing)
I've always enjoyed utilizing comeback mechanics, but that's because I've also always liked glass cannons. Trading health for damage, *specifically* by taking damage intentionally, is something I've envisioned for a while.
The character has a normal health pool (or in this case a normal weight value,) but has a move in which they damage themselves through cutting themselves, injecting something into their body, whatever method would fit the character, and they get a damage boost in return.
One tag I use on my friends switch is i-frimes. I'm a hyper aggressive player, and I seem to have a few extra frames off of the angel platform.
Lol at the end. I remember Malcolm's face giving me nightmares as a kid.
18:09 - 18:25
didn't know that till now
good to know
(so little mac has to tumble over to lose his ko punch... not necessarily take damage)
Good video. I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on incineroar and revenge.
Great vid, but would love to see some more casual guests as well
Guests were still amazing tho
Honestly yeah as a person that used to play little mac a lot, I'd honestly even take like half the kill power for more consistency. I'd much rather be able to usually get a kill at 40 or 50 than sometimes pull it off at 20.
Surprised we aren't getting a tie in tier list of comeback mechanic design. Feels like it could've been an interesting video.
The tents were so cute im laughing so much
Thanks for the video :)
"Thinking of them as a series of unique challenges to overcome that no other game on the planet can offer..."
UMvC3 X-Factor: Allow me to introduce myself.
I think mac should be more like his Punch-out-wii origin as mentioned, so maybe you get stars for interrupting attacks but lose them when hit, and they deal 15/25/40 damage and kill at 60/45/35 percent? or he could also have a super-punch-out reskin that means the KO meter is drained when hurt but damaging fills it, changing Haymaker into KO punch, a 20 damage hit killing at 75% typically, and gives a 10-15% damage buff or decreased endlag?
Also, i find kazuya obnoxious as hell but maybe its just me
very good video, interesting to hear that even the top players supposedly benefiting from broken comeback mechanics disagree with how they're designed/implemented or at least how people play around them
I do think your take on redesigning the rage mechanic is interesting, however I also think that the current rage mechanic encourages the kind of subliminal playstyle that an average smash player would fall into when they reach a higher percent, which is “kill the opponent before they kill me.“ While it would be cool to see a retooled rage system, I also think that the current rage mechanic is fine as it is.
Punch-Out! Wii is one of my favorite games of all time. I really loved how the Star Punch worked, where you hit a cocky opponent, or hit them off rhythm, or parry an attack and then hit them, and you're heavily rewarded with a Star! I promised myself if Mac got into Smash, I'd main him no matter how bad he was. Just because I loved that Mac was such a cool defensive character with a way to turn his strong defense into stronger offense. He's the physically smallest and one of the physically weakest of all the Punch-Out boxers, but when he finds his footing, he manages to turn it around and hit the hardest.
And of course, imagine my disappointment when Mac, who should've (imo) been a combo heavy, fast technical character with a few VERY strong moves that's rewarded for his patience and cunning, is one of the hardest hitting, most heavily offensive (although most good Macs play him as a bait and punish character) characters, with the KO Punch of all things, a move that's antithetical to the bait and punish, weakness exploiting, pinpoint accurate gameplay that made people fall in love with Punch-Out
Flash forward almost 8 years and I still play Mac, but I really wish he had Star Punch still
I've had an idea for a Little Mac rework that replaced the current meter with the star system like Peanut did, but I also wanted to rework Slip Counter to stun, deal fixed damage, low knockback and be one of the ways to grant a star. It should be a good combo starter (although it shouldnt be a true setup to any of the star punches), and also set up towards little mac's win condition. Parries can also work, but it shouldn't grant a star when parrying a projectile or a low damage attack.
Love how the dog water camping scene was one of MR's fav moments
I think Cloud's Limit Meter can become the basis for a Super Move Function for a Platform Fighters in the Future.