I just find it annoying how long (no Arsen) Joker’s down-b lasts, like I predict it, wait for it to end, go make a sandwich, fold the laundry, do my taxes, start a family, then try to punish and it is still active.
@Student Rohan Joshi I see the point to that strategy but almost no characters are as fast as their own projectiles. Pikachu is definitely a special case
@@starbreaker6441 this very video mentions why that's not true. The whole "counter" system in FE is a retaliation to being hit, but still taking the damage. Counters not only stop the damage, but then immediately hits back. And as this video stated, different rewards makes it more interesting. FE has a bad rep among non-Japanese Smash fans for being so generic, but they have more potential. Starting with making the counter moves more unique, and not just in tiny clone-esqe ways, would do a lot by itself.
@@bageltoo yeah it has counter play but now you as the enemy to the incin know EXACTLY what they will do next. As soon as they hit that counter (which is hard enough as it is) they will fish for either a side B or a grab, so you just wait until they try one of those and grab him.
My guess is that's a symptom of predictable DI :) For example, suppose you always DI away from the first hit (or when you land you always drift away to try a spaced landing aerial). Your opponent may be predicting that DI movement but when you make up your mind to counter a few sec earlier, you may be holding down instead of out and this DI is messing up your opponent's prediction.
@@smashgambits well, not exactly DI. But basically, when attacking, we naturally aim for where our opponent will be. When you counter it stops you dead in your tracks, so you miss.
Hi everyone, there are a few serious topics to talk about, it’s very important that you read this entire comment. One: there have been numerous reports of predatory behaviour from prominent Smash community members coming out in the past few days. Please take care of yourselves and each other. Two, and this is a big one: I am *not* among the accused group. A Ganondorf player named RockCrock was, and I’ve already started seeing confusion surfacing in my comments. To clarify: these accusations are not against me, it’s an extremely unfortunate overlap in our names. Three: this video features a few small clips of Nairo, a player who has been accused of and admitted to inappropriate relations with an underage person. This didn't surface until the video was already rendered and uploaded; I firmly condemn his behaviour and he will not be featured in any future content from me. [Apended: Nairo's case described above was settled legally and according to his account, he was the victim of his situation, not the perpetrator. I don't have the ability to fully determine the truth of events, but will rescind the earlier comment. That is not the same as an endorsement of his argument, I don't have the knowledge to do this.] In much lighter news, I wasn't clear enough about the wording of Mii Brawler's counter, its damage scaling is actually among the highest on the roster at 1.5x. Thanks for reading.
If he's at kill percent, then charge a smash attack. Or if he's not then set yourself up for an uptilt or a falling upair or something. I personally find them annoying, but down-b counter is a legitimate move which isn't overpowered (except Joker's) and has intuitive counterplay.
Melee: counter is on 2 characters maybe 3 depending on how you define it. Ultimate: new character here's your down special "counter" Down Special is broadly an AoE attack so a lot of them have countering as a theme but the make you invulnerable counter attack is over used.
@@StealthNinja4577 Yeah, they *can* be used offensively, but the requirement of being attacked makes them much more defensive than most moves by nature. Edit: Actually wait, this only applies to counters.
This has probably already been said, but I always thought that Sakurai’s intention was to represent the type of forethought and planning required to succeed in fire emblem games, not parallel a direct move or mechanic. I could be wrong, though. Great video either way!
@@BearfootBrad I mean, yeah? I am a lesbian but I don’t really see what that has to do with a point I made about sakurai’s design philosophy 2 years ago lmao
I want to add that there is a skill called "Vantage" in the Fire Emblem series that does have an effect similar to "Counter" in Super Smash Bros. Vantage allows a character to counter attack a foe before their first attack (this is on the foes turn), the only differences is that Vantage is based on HP and how damage is dealt. Another close one is "Desperation", which allows a character to attack twice before the foes first attack (This is on the players turn). I think Vantage fits better for this though. If they would have called it Vantage, it would make more sense.
This is really fitting, but unfortunately not what the Smash devs were trying to emulate. Representing Vantage so prominently doesn't make much sense given how rarely lords could get it (especially considering that it wasn't in Marth's games or Binding Blade). And countering in Smash is indeed about as frustrating for both sides as playing Enemy Phase in Fire Emblem.
I feel like counters are moves that are done for new players and the game pushes you to use them less and less as your skill progresses. Counters introduce you to the concept of reads while pushing your opponent to become less predictable in their approaches. However, as you get better, you discover less risky and more rewarding ways to accomplish the same goal of punishing approaches.
In terms of adherence to source material, Witch time is so beautifully implemented. It works just like the original games, allowing for creative setups or finishing off an enemy just like in the original games. It was definitely OP in smash 4, but the move as a whole feels just like it did in her base game
The craziest part is Roy doesn't even act like that in actual Fire Emblem (he's actually very chill), because Sakurai designed Roy in Smash in preparation for the new upcoming Fire Emblem game before its release... so basically, Roy is an OC that stole the appearance of actual Roy who also screams a lot.
@@MrMockRock I hate that feeling even if I haven't done anything I don't like being accused of doing something your stomach must have dropped into your toes man
I know the "desperation counter" is kind of a meme, but I personally like how it makes it more ambiguous for your opponent whether they should push their advantage or play it save and return to neutral. For example, Incineroar has a terrible disadvantage stage but I can't count the number of times, where I got away just landing on stage because I revenged their two previous attempts of hitting me off-stage.
This. K. Rool’s counter creates nuanced counterplay where good players can get around it with proper spacing and mixing up attacks and grabs, and the best even can bait it out to punish. But against mediocre or impatient players, counter becomes K. Rool’s tool for sending back charged projectiles used predictably, and turning the tables on opponents who aren’t putting thought into their combos beyond mashing aerials. The most fun is when people just grab ledge as K. Rool is recovering in the hopes of unthinkingly pressing B-Air to gimp him, in which case he can do a turnaround counter to KO them extremely early. I wouldn’t trade Gut Check for anything else in that special input’s place.
Ironically, Aymr represents the idea of counters in FE than the actual counters. You take damage, but can strike back if they're within range, and you withstood the attack. Like a real counter attack with Aymr.
I'm not sure if it has been released after melee, but the fire emblem series has a skill called "Vantage" which causes the victim of an attack to strike before the enemy who initiated it. This could be the thing Sakurai was actually referring to and would make the smash representation make sense
@@splattedi0i669 Yeah, if I remember right Geneology of the Holy War. With units like Ayra or other "swordmaster" units getting access to it for the most part, though there are still outliers of course.
I remember when a replay was posted everywhere when corrin was new. Everybody lost their minds because a fox with a new stock just got hit once and the he approached with a dash attack while he had like 10% while corrin had like 150%. He used the counter and fox was sent out of the screen instantly very early(yeah the cherry on the cake was the stupid rage mechanic too) But i guess the idea they had about dlc back then was about selling a very extraordinary character thats why the last ones where very good in the game
@@ADAJ342 You should check the twitters for Nairo, Keitaro, D1, Puppeh. Yeah, basically, a lot of pedophilia happened with them. (Personally, I think the one with Captain Zack and Nairo isn't completely solid and I don't think Captain Zack is innocent.)
I'm not sure if it's the strongest but it's unquestionably one of the safest in terms of pure frame data with surprising power to go with it. This comes at the cost of being completely ineffective against projectiles (which at least meelee counters block the damage of) and also the unique trait that mii brawler's counter fails to cover his lower body making it far less useful in landing scenarios.
Yeah, the multiplier is 1.5. Only Joker’s is stronger, at least in terms of raw damage. Now to mention that it’s the only counter in the game that involves a throw.
@@justafan9206 According to Ultimate numbers, Peach was the first character joining in Melee. Though it really depends who got it implemented first, which I don’t know.
I've never really thought of that whole taking up a move slot" issue, but that's a fair point. With newer characters leaning more into the concept of "character abilities" (an atypical aspect of their design that functions either without their moves or as a mechanic extending beyond a single move) I feel it would be appropriate to make future counters use spot dodge, kind of like a non-optional version of Terry's dodge attack. Of course, this would need careful balancing, as giving it the data of a counter as we see in ultimate would likely leave the character woefully unprepared for most attacks, given the reliance on the move found in competitive play
@Wil E I mean, you could give something like a less powerful and not-armored bur faster ans safer Hero side B to Roy's down b, reflecting his Distant Counter in the BInding Blade And for Ike.........you could gave him a new move that includes Urvan, kind of like a Hatchet Man with an actual axe
@@regalblade8171 Not interested. Ike is a swordsman first and Urvan is only used in non-canonical Heroes and Cipher art. Dual-wielding too is ridiculous and should only be reserved for Altina. Plus big slow moves like aymr and warlock punch are pretty stupid. I just want blade beams cuz it's kinda Ragnell's entire gimmick.
Kirby has his own “counter”, inhale. However it only turns into a counter when it inhales Dedede’s Gordo, or any big and / or strong projectile, but Kirby doesn’t actually instantly return it. You can spit it out to try to deal major damage, or just eat it. And eaten projectiles that aren’t instantly eaten don’t have the end lag.
@@JB-ng1mg it's essentially useless in that it heals a flat 1% and has more endlag than a smash attack if you instantly eat it and still leaves you quite vulnerable if you just sit there and wait a bit to eat it
Fun fact about counters in melee, since counters are a type of shields, you can perform the invisible ceiling glitch with counters, this happens a lot with Roy also, so many people think it's what Roy's counter is supposed to look like
I’ll be the one to say it- you’ve got serious guts. Two “negative” videos back to back? Don’t misunderstand me, this kind of content is INCREDIBLE. Most of the negative Smash content I see is people trying to use smaller points to prove a bigger agenda about the eternal “Which Smash is the best” debate, but these are purely design philosophy criticisms that are in nice, easily digestible forms while being incredibly comprehensive. Thank you so much for the work you put into these! I’d take as many more “negative” videos as long as you’ve got things to say 👀
Honestly, the whole which smash game is better all comes down to how you play, if you are more of a competitive player, then melee and ultimate will be high up, if you are a casual, Brawl and Sm4sh will be higher up
@@theStridingRebel IMO, which is the best depends on what unique gimmick you like the most. fast paced, flashy gameplay and gimmicky adventure mode in melee, SSE in brawl, master core, trophy rush and custom moves in smash 4, and WoL and "everyone is here" in ultimate.
I don't like that counters are hail mary kill options most of the time and I wish they all leaned more towards the Little Mac custom where they were weak but they set the opponent up for a combo or if they were just weak attacks that reset neutral. It would still turn around an exchange but it's true potential would only exist in your ability to follow up on it. Incineroar's counter IMO is fucking perfect philosophy wise. Incineroar is a character designed to be hard countered by projectile spamming but Incineroar can use this predictable weakness to his advantage but ONLY if he can overcome the weakness of his kit which is closing distance. Incineroar can stack 100 Falco lasers but if he can never hit Falco it's completely pointless and Falco still has counterplay to incineroar by just grabbing him to reset his stacks as opposed to just laming him out like you would have to do against Cloud and Joker for instance in their respective super powered modes. Incineroar's counter winds up adding 3 different avenues of skill in not only using it but taking advantage of it AS well as adding a skill layer to his opponent which is something not seen in any other counter.
The only time most counters are hail mary kill moves are if the opponent goes for disrespect or is over kill percent and thus it's a fair punish for pressing advantage too much.
Clairen's counter is really interesting since every character in RoA has what you could consider a counter due to the game's mechanics. The counter barely does any damage and does basically 0 knockback but instead it's used to solve a design issue with Clairen herself. That being that she needs to have some kind of way to deal with projectiles without having one herself. It's a cool subversion of a common trope (especially since she's basically the Marth of RoA) which also serves a lot of purpose design wise.
When used correctly, a Counter is another layer of depth in a game of 4D Chess with your opponent. The knowledge of getting hard punished for whiffing it encourages smarter defensive utility. But I know the thrill of armoring through an opponent's attacks to deliver a powerful magically charged fist into my opponent's face.
The counters from the newest characters have definitely become more varied and interesting. I also like the idea of counter-like attacks, like the ones seen in Pokken. In that game, everyone has a counter that can be fully charged or cancelled to act as a movement option. There are also a few offensive Pokemon moves that have counter properties that can be used to power through your opponent similar to Super Armor.
And you can’t even bait it they know your every move every thought you don’t even have free will they control you they just let you win oh my goooooooooood
I think Sakura’s inspiration for counters might have come more from games like Fatal Fury more than Fire Emblem, as the character Geese has one of the first counter moves in fighting games and Sakura is a fan of King of Fighters and Fatal Fury
Sakurai's reason to give the FE Characters specifically a counter move was likely the one he explained (relating to the feeling of dodging and the attacking back that is relatively common in FE), but how it worked in Smash... It definitely was inspired by his love for Fatal Fury (Geese and also Yamazaki do counters).
Im just gonna copy and paste the description for Vantage from the Fire Emblem wiki because that's probably the reference that the counter moves have pulled inspiration from: Vantage is a recurring skill in the Fire Emblem franchise. It allows the user to initiate an attack when an enemy engages him/her in battle. This skill is first introduced in Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War, in which the user will always attack first if the user has less than 50% HP left. Genealogy of the Holy War was released in 1996 if anyone wants to know.
Vantage is more akin to Suckerpunch from Pokémon; You "use" the move, then if you're going to get attacked, your move (Suckerpunch or Vantage) will trigger and let you strike first. It doesn't take the hit, nullify the damage (optional), then auto strike back. You hit them BEFORE their attack comes out, but unless you kill off the Vantage/Suckerpunch, you're still taking the damage. I'd argue Sakurai's alleged inspiration is still closer to a Counter than Vantage since the former at least involves you taking a hit before acting in retaliation of that hit while Vantage literally reverses the order of things (you hit first even if it's not your turn, then your opponent retaliates against you).
@@espurrseyes42 But smash is not a turn based game. There is no way to design a move to work like vantage/suckerpunch. That is like saying watergun could not be based off of the pokemon move because it does no damage. The two games function differently. I am not saying he was inspired by this move, I dont even play fire emblem games, I am just saying your evidence that he did not makes no sense considering that these are moves being adapted across genres
@@extonjonas6820 Water Gun not dealing damage is an intentional design choice and still represents what the move does (shoots a stream of water at the opponent). Counter is EXPLICITLY meant to be based off something (Fire Emblem's combat system) that it doesn't properly represent. The two are not comparable, and if representing the latter properly isn't possible due to game genre differences, then maybe Sakurai should've opted AGAINST making it a defining feature of the Fire Emblem cast's gameplay to the post where 6 of their 8 reps have it.
@@espurrseyes42 What you are saying makes no sense to me. Every special move in smash is adapted to fit the game. You could probably count on both hands all of the moves that strongly resemble their source material in functionality or limitations. For example, even marios fireballs can be used without a powerup. That is because it would not make much sense to implement a power up system just so he can use a basic projectile. I really dont see the distinction you are making here. There are a ton of moves far less faithful and only capture the essence of something from the core game. I dont know why you think the counter is particularly bad. Maybe you just hate counters?
@@extonjonas6820 And most of those moves aren't "adapted" so much that they fail to resemble the thing they're based on. Mario's fireball still functions similar to its SMB counterpart. It may be slower, have a range limit, and be done with a Fire Flower (Mario has used Fire abilities without the need for that power-up before, namely in SMRPG where he actually does a variation on that attack WITHOUT the Fire Flower). Robin may not be able to use Nosferatu, which is also a ranged attack and not a command grab, but it still functions as a Dark Magic attack that drains health. The Fire Emblem character's Counters don't in ANY way resemble the combat flow of an FE battle without severely stretching it. It is a poor representation of the source its based on and shouldn't have become that franchise's "gimmick" if Sakurai couldn't represent it properly. This video already explains why Counters are bad. They're oversaturated (thanks to Fire Emblem), usually not worth using when other options are available save for Witch Time (a notoriously broken move that got nerfed to the point of basically being a standard counter and not worth its use in most cases), and aren't conceptionally interesting with most being "block it, attack back". But at least in the cases OUTSIDE FE, those characters canonically have Counters/Counter-like abilities, and SOME of them get a bit interesting like Substitute, Revenge, Scintilla, and the two Counter-Reflect hybrids. None of this applies to Fire Emblem characters.
the point boils down to "if they aren't good, nobody ever uses them, but if they're too good, everybody hates them," but how does this differ significantly from any other move or move type? projectiles, standard hitbox generating moves, command grabs etc. all have to walk the same line
Because counters remove shield breaking. Normally shield pressure has a benefit, a break... but if you're being set up for a break you're able to resort to counters. This lowers the punish even if you fail, gets you out, and is relatively low risk comparatively.
9:03 Witch time is useless now. While other counters like Peach guarantee an stock if you use it properly Bayonetta was nerfed so bad that I will prefer that Witch time was replaced by another new move instead of a watered version dat does not work EVEN at high percents. Landing witch time in a character with 150% damage or above should guarantee you a stock.
@@h-man1371 I am a Greninja-Peach player now. And both of those characters have a FUNCTIONAL counter. If you use it you get something out of it. A stock or some damaged. Bayonetta in other hand was over-nerfed and hardly gets a follow up after her counter.
In Sm4sh I wasn't able to buy DLCs so the moment I finally was able to play Bayonetta in Ultimate I feel like it was just a worthless move, like, what I'm supposed to do in half of a second besides side-b? That move is useless as hell.
I agree with most other points but I feel like the "Counters do a poor job representing Fire Emblem's mechanics" point is an overreaching nitpick more than anything. No the counter in Smash does not *literally* work the same way counterattacking works in Fire Emblem. But it still goes in an order of oppontent attacks -> unit retaliates. It's really not that complicated and yet you spent a significant chunk of the video basically saying "well that's not how fire emblem actually works". Normally I wouldn't care but I already know we're gonna see this point referenced in every thinkpiece about "Why Fire Emblem Characters in Smash are Bad" from now until the end of time. All for a nitpick.
I mean, fire emblem characters largely sucked in smash regardless and that is a fact. What was going on there? Swords, fire and dragons. Even if the inaccuracy does not matter, the move is still a keypart of the movesets that are just boring. Not to mention, if we want to play the game that it is similar enough, it is not really. Units in fire emblem can doubleattack when they counterattack, yet the counter in smash is not really a tool to set-up combos.
The key difference is that in Smash, the counter-er doesn't take any damage. If the designers wanted their counters to be more accurate to Fire Emblem, they could simply make it so that you take a fraction of, or even full damage. That might hurt the viability of the move, though.
@@lpfan4491 i disagree with counters being a bad move. Counters are supposed to be used punish obvious hits from opponents. In the safe on shield ridden meta game of ultimate, i believe counters are very good tool. Its supposed to be a easy call out tool. I think counters are given a bad name especially because ultimate is a spam safe on shield moves. In melee... yeah counters suck.
LPFan That's one of the reasons many of us who are both Fire Emblem and Smash fans wanted FE representatives who weren't just swordfighters. I mean, there's so much more to use than just agile swordies in FE: there's axe-users, lancers, archers, mages, healers, armored knights, flying units, units on horseback, transforming units, and more! Plus, there are so many skills and abilities that could be worked into Smash movesets. Granted, most of what I mentioned have already included in Smash in some way or another, even though most of them still use a counter for some reason. Ike uses skills from his base game (most notably Aether), Robin uses magic and their base game's Pair Up mechanic (Final Smash only, though), Corrin makes use of their dragon transformations, and Byleth employs the use of 3 non-sword weapons. That's also not counting the Assist Trophies. But yeah, the only FE reps that I find really unique are Ike, Robin, Corrin, and Byleth. All of the others feel like variations of Marth. I do like their inclusion, but I feel they, especially Roy & Chrom, could do with a few more interesting moves.
I agree that the counter isnt really derived from fe. But sakurai never said counter is directly taken out from fe, he actually said that counter is inspired by the turn base combat of fe. In fe, you are rewarded by counter attacking by luring in enemy troops with tanky units and defeating them with the the rest of your troops. It is kinda the same with counter, your opponent attacks u, but you soak up a hit and deliver a stronger counter attack. Again, counter is not directly taken from fe, but rather inspired by the combat system of fe.
1) Even though I don't like Sakurai's reasoning for designing counters, I think counters are still a good representation of FE's gameplay. A lot of high level FE is about baiting the enemy into a bad position. Move a unit into the enemy's range so they attack you, only to isolate that enemy away from its team. Counters are similar. You convince your opponent that you're vulnerable, only to use a counter on them and gain a hit in. 2) I know people who like the idea of counters. Even though other defensive options are usually better at the high level, some people like the idea of tricking the enemy into thinking they are vulnerable only to use a counter. My sister isn't that good at the game, but she loves using counters (as Lucina usually) to exploit the fact that people think she's not going to dodge their attack.
Something I would love to see a platform fighter attempt… A defense system where the only form of block is a universal counter for all the roster. It would really shake up the gameplay and force everyone to truly analyze their moves and how to handle the battlefield.
That's _kind of_ what Rivals of Aether does. Rather than having a shield like in Smash, characters instead have a parry, where if you time it right before an opponent hits, they'll be stunned for a bit under a second and you can follow up with a hard punish. It's not _quite_ the same thing as most of the counters in Smash since you still have to attack afterward (I guess it's kind of like Witch Time, but with a shorter stun rather than a long slowdown) but it certainly fulfills a similar purpose, and not being able to just sit in shield helps to make the game less defensive overall.
I haven't played in a while but I think Shovel Knight Showdown has a similar parry system to RoA, you have to time your button press to right before they hit you to knock them off of you
Hi mockrock. Regarding your plans for your archetype series, I think it would be interesting to talk about the multiple zoners this game has, and how each game has gone by adding a new and interesting way to zone the opponent, whether it be Samus' projectiles in 64, Min Min's arms in Ult, ETC. I think the history of how Zoners evolved and what the fundementle trade off that these characters get for extreme space control capabilities will be interesting. And maybe how these characters have been the subject of hate ever since online became a huge part of the game?
Honestly out of all the FE characters, Byleth would most suit a counter, since in her game she has an ability where she can reverse time and undo mistakes.
Wil E Been a while since I dived into the full skill system of awakening so I may be forgetting a way to steal skills but Chrom doesn't have access to the Myrmidon class which is the source of vantage and while half of Lucina's possible parents give vantage, the slightly pushed Sumia doesn't and Robin can marry everybody and gives every normal class. As for the others Ike's skill capacity is often taken up by Aether in PoR and Nilhi in F10 (along with his unremovable Aether and Shove) and while that's a gameplay choice there is some push in the games to use those skills instead of skills like vantage. (Aether has a base conversation, is one of the ways to beat the Black Knight and is tied to his inherited fighting style, while Nilhi is given to Ike as a free bonus when he promotes and is somewhat of a necessity for endgame.) For the other characters all of them have access to vantage (though Corrin needs to either choose Samurai as their class or poach it) and use swords so have synergy with the class that gives it. Though overall I think Byleth has the edge as Merc is a pretty natural choice for them from both a progressional and thematic sense. (And the seeing the Future thing does result in a couple counter attack esque cutscenes)
What I think is the worst part about counters is that rather than avoiding a move to then cash in on punishing it, you simply take the attack before pulling out an stupidly powerful no u card. I really like utility counters, because while they still have the annoyance of embracing an attack, to cash in on the reward you must still abide by the traditional rules of "not get hit by big attack"
I'd love to see more "counter as command grab" experimentation. Maybe even putting them in an actual grab so you get access to a real throw out of your counter? That might be pretty strong, but I can imagine a grappler getting a lot of interesting play out of that.
Your idea is brilliant. I would like to add a few things to your idea. The command grab counter does not work against projectiles. Command grab counter can be performed in the air, but does not go into a grapple. Instead, the character performs an aerial version of the forward throw automatically.
In Fire emblem 4 and beyond, we can see a skill known as Vantage, one that allows you to attack before the opponent evej if they initiate, most commonly when the user is at lower health, hoping to kill the opponent before the attack. This, from my perspective, is far more like how the "Counter", all the fire emblem unit have. Despite most of the lords not having it at base, like Ike, Corrin, Chrom and Lucina, or access at all like Marth and Roy, it still would at least make for a neat name change, even it it doesn't justify them all having one 😁
@@bynightfall_4516 I'm pretty sure everyone remembers why FE characters have counters, but Chewyster is just saying that the counter is most like Vantage.
On the topic of counter being referenced to a skill, it could be possible that it could be referencing the vantage skill, which does allow the he attacked unit to attack first before the enemy (of course it varies with health requirements from game time game but the main use never changed). And it was introduced in fe4 genealogy of the holy war, which did release years before melee. Though this is just a theory of mine.
Vantage only allows you to attack first when getting attacked. While it does interrupt your opponent's attack, it doesn't function as a "block the attack, immediately strike back" type of move. It's more like Suckerpunch from Pokémon, which always strikes first, but will only be able to hit if the target was going to use an attacking move on that turn just like how Vantage lets you strike first if you were being attacked.
i remember when you had under 1K subs, and I really wanted to see you succeed because of your entertaining style of content, keep on going! you're great at it!
I'm totally fine with counters existing as they can make for some fun moments. But sometimes it feels like the 'easy way out' when designing a character. Like I really think little mac should not have a counter as it just doesnt really fit in my opinion. I feel they could have done something cooler with him
Actually, a counter for Little Mac makes sense, he is a boxer and that is really common in boxing, but for character line Palutena, King K. Rool, Peach, and the FE character, is just a default for not having enough source material, I wouldn't be surprised if one day we get a Tetris fighter and it has a counter.
@@juanrodriguez9971 Palutena is a reference to the "gift" (I think they are called like this in english) from Kid Icarus, as well as all her special, final smash and UpSmah iirc. So it fits ^^
There's also the fact that Little Mac's counter represents Punch Out better than FE counters do. It's common that you wait for your opponent to throw out a move recklessly in Punch Out and punch them for slipping up.
I think it'd be interesting to take a look at counters in more conventional fighting games and how they play into the conversation. Sure, the Fire Emblem counters aren't really that truly representative of Fire Emblem as a series, but they are pretty similar to and reminiscent of counters in classic fighting games, simply with a lowered difficulty of use.
In my mind, Ryu, Ken, and Incineroar have the most interesting counters. They don't flatly retaliate - Incineroar uses Revenge to compliment his low-combo high-power moveset, while Ryu and Ken still attack even on whiff or if the opponent doesn't attack at all, making it more versatile than "predicting" an attack or guessing. That said, I'd like to see a counter that actually puts pressure on opponents who play too cautiously. For instance, such a counter could fill a special gauge if used without getting attacked, and once filled, the counter would temporarily turn into a dangerous attack or even change the general moveset to cover weak points the character would normally have in his/her moveset. To make up for this level of potential pace control, during the counter stance, getting grabbed out of it would actually decrease the meter. Additionally, the move would have a cooldown period whenever you land a kill so you can't just fill the gauge while your opponent respawns. On a side note: Byleth being called "creative" had me do a spit take. You owe me a cup of tea, dude.
An underrated aspect about counters is that they work on any damage dealing move, including projectiles and other counters. Countering projectiles can be useful against rushdown characters because the strategy of firing a projectile and chasing the opponent that's running away turns into running into the counter. And, while it's tricky to set up, countering forever is just fun to do.
@@StudioEnergizerMV Hmmm...maybe make it so that the "parry" happens upon a perfect shield, and the "counter window" happens upon releasing the shield?
@@OatmealCreamPie that would be too hard to do, as releasing shield at the right time is exactly how you parry in the first place, its just a bad idea i feel
I use Shulk's counter as an offstage mobility option since it changes with his arts. Especially in Jump and Speed modes, jump in the air can get me to center stage, and speed mode I can actually retreat a bit, and poke them to regain my stance. Or punishing a bad option in Smash or Buster mode.
I still think Counter are fun to use, I understand the problem related to the fire emblem origin, however if they had a similar animation to spotdodge I would think that's a worst design that just a defend animation. I personally think that Peach is the worst case for a Counter, I get the idea of using a Toad as a guardian or something like that, But Honestly of all the counter she's the one that makes the least sense of all. I love Ultimate Aproach since I Believe a Counter is a Perfectly normal tool for a characther, to the point were I wonder if the next smash game would just add a dedicated button for counters instead of making them specials. I think the Video is very well Research in the introduction of this moves, I still think there's nothing wrong with FE with Counter moves if they behave diferenly, Corrin's the best example, it not just looks diferent it also behaves diferently. At the end of the day, this was a great Video, Keep doing this great work, MockRock.
Peach's counter is slightly better in Ultimate regarding accuracy since Peach plays damsel fully and Toad comes out and tries to defend her. I love that.
What I feel could've worked greatly for Bayonetta is a slight rework. Her games explicitly say witch time is only activated when you time your dodge just right, but if you fail, attacks will phase through you. It could've been just like that in smash, you do down b and she starts a long intangibility and only for a few frames witch time can be actually landed. Once finished, she has less endlag than most counters. This makes it honest, balanced and true to her games.
Y'know? If every character had a unique special attack they could trigger by pressing B while shielding (like Steve's crafting table or Inkling's ink refill), or by holding shield + b in the air (with a few frames at the start of air dodge to cancel into a shield special), then the Fire Emblem characters could easily keep their counters while also giving them an extra move slot to work with. If Mario's cape was a "shield special" he could use Cappy as his side special. Zelda's Nayru's Love attack, Mewtwo's Disable, Samus' bomb drop, Bowser's side special... a lot of moves could be reworked as shield specials. Luigi could use his poltergust as an entirely shield special... it'd take some getting used to but if they did it right it would make a really cool mechanic, and each character would get one more move to work with.
Some Smash Bros Characters on their counters: Bayonetta: The power of being a Umbra Witch allows me to put the chill on these ruffians. Dark Pit/Pit: Wait, what? I had a counter? Greninja: GREN GREN INJA Incineroar: For the power, I can tank those flowers! Lucario: My aura allows me to predict the opponents moves, leading them to an abrupt end. Mii Brawler: Rickety roll, time to YEET ur soul!
Counters lend themselves more to casuals, fitting with Sakurai’s attempt to keep the series focused more on casual play than competitive play. Furthermore, a similar argument to Ganondorf’s moveset could be made as counters have come to represent Fire Emblem in Smash and, unlike Ganondorf, most players are introduced to or only know about FE because of smash, meaning that this train of thought is fairly warranted for the FE cast. I am by no means saying that this is warranted for Ganondorf, nor am I saying that FE reps don’t deserve proper representation from their games.
fire emblem: swords, lances, axes, bows, magic and transformation stones, alongside infantry, armor, mounted and flying, all used at the right time and place to win fire emblem in smash: swords
It's worth noting that the counters in Smash are clearly modeled after counters in SNK games (which we know Sakurai is a big fan of), which are as far from casual as it gets.
The thing I ALWAY HATE SO MUCH is when I'm fighting a CPU opponent and counter, but they read my inputs and don't hit me and punish me for it. Even worse is when they DO attack me but because of the change in air speed when countering their attack misses... and then they punish me for it.
Back when Ultimate came out, I remember feeling that counter attacks were somewhat devalued by the introduction of the parry mechanic. The way I saw it, if everybody effectively has a counter attack now, why do some characters have to give up a special move for it1
You ever start watching a video to answer a basic question only for them to start going off like "the game was released in north america in 2001 followed by europe and australia a few months later which reminds me of a story my grandpa always told me about..." and thats when you realize the video is over 20min long.
This video should be titled “history of counters in smash”. The video felt more like a history lesson on smash’s counters opposed to focusing on the problems they create.
My idea is that every character gets a "Shield Special" move (like Inkling's ink charge works) that is a purely defensive move such as a counter or a reflector
Yes! Here's a good video about this: th-cam.com/video/5dd5aQ9t5ms/w-d-xo.html A shield special would also present some interesting options since it could only be used on the ground (since you need to be able to shield to use it). Some moves, like Villager's down special, don't do anything off the ground anyway, so maybe a shield special would be a good spot to move them. Although I would miss Villager's pseudo-taunt shrugging animation
The game I’m designing, which has dedicated melee and ranged attack buttons, goes the “counters as a core mechanic” route, with guard+ranged being a Bloodborne-styled parry against melee attacks while guard+melee reflecting projectiles, which get faster and stronger each time they’re reflected, allowing for Zelda-style tennis matches which provide risk/reward dynamics for both players involved. A special slot isn’t “wasted”, and opens up new options and opportunities in combat.
I think counters in smash actually provide a good representation of the fire emblem games. In fire emblem, if your defense and speed stats are high enough, you can actually block the enemy's initial attack and counterattack. Obviously it's not as fast and as fluid as Smash's counters but thats just because smash is a faster and more fluid game then Fire Emblem.
Great vid, but I think it overlooks one very important aspect of Smash's design that helps to justify the implementation of counter moves, which is that it's largely designed for its casual player base as more of a "party fighter" than a competitive fighting game. This matters when talking about how counters relate to other defensive options characters have. For instance, you mentioned "wave-dashing" as another option that could be taken in a given scenario. As a casual player myself who doesn't know a whole lot about competitive Smash, I have NO IDEA what wave-dashing even is, let alone how to do it and utilize it as part of a defensive suite, haha. The same is true about pretty much any high-level technique. Within the game's core design philosophy, counters aren't necessarily competing with those as defensive options, so they become a lot less niche in effective usage as a result. Just something to consider.
The fast shulk counter, when you hold forward during a ground counter, is something I use pretty often despite it being very risky due to being able to miss
I appreciate where you're coming from but I'm gonna have to disagree. I think focusing on how useful it is in high-level play is an overly utilitarian way of viewing the move, especially when you consider that plenty of more traditional fighting games have moves that don't get a whole lot of use in high-level play despite those games being primarily designed with that in mind; it's just a consequence of the developing metagame that some strategies are gonna end up less useful than others. I'd argue that Marth/Lucina's counter is a perfect "tone-setter" move for the style of character that they are. Marth is a zoner but unlike more traditional projectile-based zoners he has to rely on his disjointed hitboxes to control space. If a new player picks the character, knowing nothing about frame data or optimal set-ups or anything, the thing that's going to clue them in on how to play the character is their kit. The tipper mechanic is a great way of encouraging players to be wary of spacing, especially with the fantastic visual and audio feedback you get from connecting a properly spaced move, but the tipper mechanic could still go over the heads of a younger or more casual audience (it certainly escaped a younger me playing melee back in the day). The counter is even more on the nose about this play-style than the tipper mechanic, the sole function of the move is to anticipate an attack and beat it out. If some random kid picks up Marth or Lucina and runs around trying to land counters on their friends, then there's a stronger chance that they'll accidentally fall in to playing the character the right way than if the move was replaced with just another fancy sword attack. Also I realised this while typing out this comment, but Marth's zoning playstyle is actually an excellent homage to the Fire Emblem games, which is all about exploiting positioning and weapon properties to win battles.
I don't know if you're sick of hearing this yet or not, but your freaking intro is incredible. Watching it and hearing that awesome music makes me feel like I'm about to watch something awesome Every. Single. Time.
My idea for a Fire Emblem character: each special move summons a unit, as if you’re commanding them in battle. Neutral special is a short range but high damaging axe wielder. Down special is a long range archer. Side special is a lance wielder with decent range but poor damage. Each unit can be attacked by the opponent and has a health bar. If they run out of health, they stay dead for the rest of the match. Not just the stock, the entire match. Perma death ain’t no joke.
Maybe, MAYBE if it was just for the stock then that could possibly work. But for an entire match? That is the absolute worse idea I've heard. This is like saying that if King K Rool gets his stomach smashed, he shouldn't be able to use any of the moves with stomach armor for the rest of the game. If your shield brakes you no longer can shield for an entire match. Kill a pikmin, no longer get that color. Nana dies for good, etc. This would be a terrible game mechanic and no one would enjoy playing a neutered character. Ask anybody that plays Ice climbers if they enjoy playing as just Popo and 100% of them would say no. Also think about this in a casual sense. Your summon gets hit with a final smash, welp, looks like you lost it. Playing a 10 stock match, better hope you don't lose one early. A system like banjo's wonderwing could work better, but even then that's one move that you have control of when you lose it, not 3 that's up to your opponent.
The entire time I played smash I always thought counter was based off of the vantage skill considering you end up hitting the opponent first when they attack you.
OP is saying a counter that dashes forward while they're in the state where they're waiting to get hit instead of after receiving an attack I think. If they were to do that I would think it wouldn't be very active then again Joker's counter exists so idk
Greninja and Incineroar's counters are by far my favorite counters. They're so fun and can be used in such creative ways. These are counters done right.
There is the counter ability and vantage ability which achieve what the fire emblem counter does. We could also talk about how common fire emblem strategies premote having your opponent attack you first then reacting.
Short answer:
when you use it, it lasts for .7 seconds
when somebody else uses it, it lasts for 3 years
Exactly
That's relatable
It really do be like that tho
this comment hurts me because its so true
Absolutely.
I just find it annoying how long (no Arsen) Joker’s down-b lasts, like I predict it, wait for it to end, go make a sandwich, fold the laundry, do my taxes, start a family, then try to punish and it is still active.
I hate this! It would be better if he just didn't counter attack and got out faster
@Student Rohan Joshi thats a weak punish compared to a smash attack or another strong option for something normally as laggy as a counter
@Student Rohan Joshi but it's so bs that his counter has advantage to projectiles in neutral. It's stupid
@Student Rohan Joshi I see the point to that strategy but almost no characters are as fast as their own projectiles. Pikachu is definitely a special case
Jab smash attack can work if spaced well.
Flavorwise, Shulk's Vision is the "best", since it actually reflects his canonical abilities and translates Xenoblade gameplay into Smash.
Same for Little Mac, his games almost 100% revolve around waiting for the opponent to strike and then retaliating back hard
Functionality wise... it's possibly the worst counter in the game.
@@Endershock1678 which really sucks, because shulk is a really cool character
I think this applies to as many as they can to to try to stay true with material
@@starbreaker6441 this very video mentions why that's not true. The whole "counter" system in FE is a retaliation to being hit, but still taking the damage. Counters not only stop the damage, but then immediately hits back.
And as this video stated, different rewards makes it more interesting. FE has a bad rep among non-Japanese Smash fans for being so generic, but they have more potential. Starting with making the counter moves more unique, and not just in tiny clone-esqe ways, would do a lot by itself.
I totally agree, Incineroar's revenge is the most fascinating take on a counter, and honestly seems to fit the concept of a counter best.
Problem is that you get grabbed once and lose your damage.
@@goon5665 But that makes it balanced.
@@goon5665 but if you grab once the opponent loses their stock.
@@bageltoo yeah it has counter play but now you as the enemy to the incin know EXACTLY what they will do next. As soon as they hit that counter (which is hard enough as it is) they will fish for either a side B or a grab, so you just wait until they try one of those and grab him.
ITS SO SICK
Playing Ganondorf against a counter character is like always walking on egg-shells, except with a locomotive.
So…rolling on eggshells
Why is it the one time I counter, my opponent decides to whiff his attack
Bruh, I swear that always happens
My guy be comboing me seven times in a row but when I bust the counter he misses.
Thats like 1 mistake in 30 attacks and its always when I counter
My guess is that's a symptom of predictable DI :) For example, suppose you always DI away from the first hit (or when you land you always drift away to try a spaced landing aerial). Your opponent may be predicting that DI movement but when you make up your mind to counter a few sec earlier, you may be holding down instead of out and this DI is messing up your opponent's prediction.
@@smashgambits well, not exactly DI. But basically, when attacking, we naturally aim for where our opponent will be. When you counter it stops you dead in your tracks, so you miss.
Lol every time
Hi everyone, there are a few serious topics to talk about, it’s very important that you read this entire comment. One: there have been numerous reports of predatory behaviour from prominent Smash community members coming out in the past few days. Please take care of yourselves and each other. Two, and this is a big one: I am *not* among the accused group. A Ganondorf player named RockCrock was, and I’ve already started seeing confusion surfacing in my comments. To clarify: these accusations are not against me, it’s an extremely unfortunate overlap in our names. Three: this video features a few small clips of Nairo, a player who has been accused of and admitted to inappropriate relations with an underage person. This didn't surface until the video was already rendered and uploaded; I firmly condemn his behaviour and he will not be featured in any future content from me.
[Apended: Nairo's case described above was settled legally and according to his account, he was the victim of his situation, not the perpetrator. I don't have the ability to fully determine the truth of events, but will rescind the earlier comment. That is not the same as an endorsement of his argument, I don't have the knowledge to do this.]
In much lighter news, I wasn't clear enough about the wording of Mii Brawler's counter, its damage scaling is actually among the highest on the roster at 1.5x.
Thanks for reading.
You’re a good person, thanks for this.
Thanks for the amazing content MockRock! Hope you're enjoying the Ike & Dark Pit buffs!
RockCrock?
You mean the Ganon that coined the term Rockcrocking for Ganon and Falcon?
Him too?
Warren Valion yeah
Thanks for the clarification, but it wasn’t you and your video is great 👍 as well
Me: I'll do this random string of attacks to make sure he can't see it coming so I can take this stock before he takes mine
Marth: pREdiCtAbLE
GAME
What can i say except you're welcome
"Predictable"
Trigger war flashbacks of Geese Howard
@@Marc-rw3dd predictabo!
I will say it here. And I will say it again. Only Mashers get hit by counter.
If he's at kill percent, then charge a smash attack. Or if he's not then set yourself up for an uptilt or a falling upair or something. I personally find them annoying, but down-b counter is a legitimate move which isn't overpowered (except Joker's) and has intuitive counterplay.
Smash 4 was basically "Can't think of a Down Special, just give them a counter!"
Melee: counter is on 2 characters maybe 3 depending on how you define it.
Ultimate: new character here's your down special "counter"
Down Special is broadly an AoE attack so a lot of them have countering as a theme but the make you invulnerable counter attack is over used.
@@StealthNinja4577 Down specials are also often defensive
@@juniperrodley9843 in melee? They gave you the option of using them offensively or defensively depending on your play style.
@@StealthNinja4577 Yeah, they *can* be used offensively, but the requirement of being attacked makes them much more defensive than most moves by nature.
Edit: Actually wait, this only applies to counters.
This has probably already been said, but I always thought that Sakurai’s intention was to represent the type of forethought and planning required to succeed in fire emblem games, not parallel a direct move or mechanic. I could be wrong, though. Great video either way!
Gay
@@BearfootBrad I mean, yeah? I am a lesbian but I don’t really see what that has to do with a point I made about sakurai’s design philosophy 2 years ago lmao
@@sapphic_sophie double gay
gay
@@sapphic_sophie gay (complimentary)
I want to add that there is a skill called "Vantage" in the Fire Emblem series that does have an effect similar to "Counter" in Super Smash Bros. Vantage allows a character to counter attack a foe before their first attack (this is on the foes turn), the only differences is that Vantage is based on HP and how damage is dealt. Another close one is "Desperation", which allows a character to attack twice before the foes first attack (This is on the players turn). I think Vantage fits better for this though. If they would have called it Vantage, it would make more sense.
I've been playing FE for almost a decade, Smash for even longer and I can't believe I've never connected Countering to Vantage.
Fire emblem has a bunch if skills and arts I wish were used in smash. Aether has a cool use.
The name vantage did not exist when melee was released due to fe4 and 5 never releasing in the west. If anything, it would have been called ambush.
This is really fitting, but unfortunately not what the Smash devs were trying to emulate. Representing Vantage so prominently doesn't make much sense given how rarely lords could get it (especially considering that it wasn't in Marth's games or Binding Blade). And countering in Smash is indeed about as frustrating for both sides as playing Enemy Phase in Fire Emblem.
Naw the counter that’s used in smash is based on basic mechanic of counterattacking during combat. Sakurai said it himself
12:39 Don't mind me, just laughing at pre 8.0.0 aether.
Seeing Aether not kill as it does canonically in Fire Emblem feels weird and it's only been a couple days since said inconsistency was fixed.
Sir Pig Next they just have to replace Ike’s counter with a sword beam ;)
My switch is banned and doesn't have 8.0.0 :(
Now they just have to make it heal Ike when landed
Has it always made that much smoke/launch particles? It seems so over the top for an animation so simple.
I feel like counters are moves that are done for new players and the game pushes you to use them less and less as your skill progresses.
Counters introduce you to the concept of reads while pushing your opponent to become less predictable in their approaches.
However, as you get better, you discover less risky and more rewarding ways to accomplish the same goal of punishing approaches.
Using that logic though would imply that there's even a higher skill cap for counters at a higher level of play.
Bruh the basic down b counter aint even fun at all. Its just a button u press. Doesnt require much thinking
@@meyeneetuks4680 , by that logic dodging, jumping and shielding aint even fun at all because it's just one button press.
@@meyeneetuks4680 use it to edge guard for fucks sake
@@DeadpoolX9 gives me memories of edgeguarding chrom with counter. he can NOT make it back on stage at all
In terms of adherence to source material, Witch time is so beautifully implemented. It works just like the original games, allowing for creative setups or finishing off an enemy just like in the original games. It was definitely OP in smash 4, but the move as a whole feels just like it did in her base game
I love how friggin batsh*t Roy gets when he counters, he screams like a maniac.
The craziest part is Roy doesn't even act like that in actual Fire Emblem (he's actually very chill), because Sakurai designed Roy in Smash in preparation for the new upcoming Fire Emblem game before its release... so basically, Roy is an OC that stole the appearance of actual Roy who also screams a lot.
@@lasercraft32Smash Roy is just FE Roy that’s had enough
I'll admit I'm guilty of spamming these when at all desperate.
Aren’t we all
That's why you end up eating fully charged F smashes
Agreed. And yet I still love using counters. But I only use them as a last resort..or when Ganondorf Warlock Punches.
I hope you drop your switch in your soup.
I can't even say I'm mad. I don't think counters were ever a good idea, especially against bad players they just plain win every time.
The Smash community is falling apart, but hey! We still have MockRock
Ayy
Dylan Applegate I didn’t see it in the mega thread, so nope. MockRock as of now is a good guy.
@@Deedj1 Excuse me? Point me to this accusation right now.
MockRock Ayy he ain’t taking no shit from no one
@@MrMockRock I hate that feeling even if I haven't done anything I don't like being accused of doing something your stomach must have dropped into your toes man
I know the "desperation counter" is kind of a meme, but I personally like how it makes it more ambiguous for your opponent whether they should push their advantage or play it save and return to neutral. For example, Incineroar has a terrible disadvantage stage but I can't count the number of times, where I got away just landing on stage because I revenged their two previous attempts of hitting me off-stage.
This. K. Rool’s counter creates nuanced counterplay where good players can get around it with proper spacing and mixing up attacks and grabs, and the best even can bait it out to punish. But against mediocre or impatient players, counter becomes K. Rool’s tool for sending back charged projectiles used predictably, and turning the tables on opponents who aren’t putting thought into their combos beyond mashing aerials. The most fun is when people just grab ledge as K. Rool is recovering in the hopes of unthinkingly pressing B-Air to gimp him, in which case he can do a turnaround counter to KO them extremely early. I wouldn’t trade Gut Check for anything else in that special input’s place.
Ironically, Aymr represents the idea of counters in FE than the actual counters. You take damage, but can strike back if they're within range, and you withstood the attack. Like a real counter attack with Aymr.
Unless you're in the air.
I'm not sure if it has been released after melee, but the fire emblem series has a skill called "Vantage" which causes the victim of an attack to strike before the enemy who initiated it. This could be the thing Sakurai was actually referring to and would make the smash representation make sense
Update: The first game in which this skill appeared in came out 5 years before melee
@@splattedi0i669 Yeah, if I remember right Geneology of the Holy War. With units like Ayra or other "swordmaster" units getting access to it for the most part, though there are still outliers of course.
Really because if I remember Skills didn’t make a debut until Path of Radiance, which came out after Melee
@@zaneheaston8254 Genealogy of holy war had vantage
*Me a Smash 4 Corrin main:* Ah yes the win button
I remember when a replay was posted everywhere when corrin was new.
Everybody lost their minds because a fox with a new stock just got hit once and the he approached with a dash attack while he had like 10% while corrin had like 150%.
He used the counter and fox was sent out of the screen instantly very early(yeah the cherry on the cake was the stupid rage mechanic too)
But i guess the idea they had about dlc back then was about selling a very extraordinary character thats why the last ones where very good in the game
@@peluquin98 that’s why the game died so fast it was basically P2W also the stupid rage mechanic
@Bruh Moment just because you don’t doesn’t mean everyone doesn’t
@Bruh Moment yeah I’m pretty sure people just hate the amount there are and how close they are from being the same character.
Same, but Pyra and Mythra are looking pretty good too.
With the events that have been happening recently, it’s a big breath of fresh air seeing a form of media that isn’t related to said controversies.
Those allegations had to come through, because they shouldn't be kept a secret, but honestly, they suck and they ruined the commmunity
What happened?
@@ADAJ342 You should check the twitters for Nairo, Keitaro, D1, Puppeh. Yeah, basically, a lot of pedophilia happened with them. (Personally, I think the one with Captain Zack and Nairo isn't completely solid and I don't think Captain Zack is innocent.)
Samuel Cho *Cinnpie not Puppeh. I don’t want Puppeh’s name to be thrown around until he actually gets an allegation and is proven guilty.
@@aIkaIi man you were ahead of your time with nairo
"less lethal than usual"
Doesn't mii brawler have the strongest counter in the game?
Yes, unless you count shulk with smash art
I'm not sure if it's the strongest but it's unquestionably one of the safest in terms of pure frame data with surprising power to go with it. This comes at the cost of being completely ineffective against projectiles (which at least meelee counters block the damage of) and also the unique trait that mii brawler's counter fails to cover his lower body making it far less useful in landing scenarios.
Yeah, the multiplier is 1.5. Only Joker’s is stronger, at least in terms of raw damage. Now to mention that it’s the only counter in the game that involves a throw.
yes
One of them. However, it's the shortest range. A good range or disjoint will leave the Brawler clutching at thin air and open for a punish
When you realize that the first character to have a counter was Peach
No. Marth, Roy, AND peach.
Umm… Wow.
@@justafan9206 According to Ultimate numbers, Peach was the first character joining in Melee. Though it really depends who got it implemented first, which I don’t know.
@@PiegiXD_2319 oh ok
@@justafan9206 nah peach comes before marth and roy in ultimate meaning she’s the 1st
"[Lucario's counter] significantly broke the mold..."
I see what you did there.
😂 Yeah
lucario doesn't have Mold Breaker in any of the games
I've never really thought of that whole taking up a move slot" issue, but that's a fair point. With newer characters leaning more into the concept of "character abilities" (an atypical aspect of their design that functions either without their moves or as a mechanic extending beyond a single move) I feel it would be appropriate to make future counters use spot dodge, kind of like a non-optional version of Terry's dodge attack. Of course, this would need careful balancing, as giving it the data of a counter as we see in ultimate would likely leave the character woefully unprepared for most attacks, given the reliance on the move found in competitive play
Terry spot dodge attack is basically up tilt
@@pissguzzler9604 I mean, sure his uses a lot of the data from uptilt, including the animation, but that's kinda tangential to my point
So, Mythra?
@@aniotheeh.4226 I suppose Mythra works kinda, but I was thinking more about traditional counters.
So landing a spot dodge does an automatic counter? Just seems like Shulk's.
IT'S BEEN 12 YEARS AND THEY STILL HAVEN'T GIVEN IKE HIS DAMN BLADE BEAMS.
@Wil E I mean, you could give something like a less powerful and not-armored bur faster ans safer Hero side B to Roy's down b, reflecting his Distant Counter in the BInding Blade
And for Ike.........you could gave him a new move that includes Urvan, kind of like a Hatchet Man with an actual axe
Wil E The arm switching is the main reason I love Min Min so much. Definitely agree that more’ stance’ based mechanics would be interesting in Smash.
Like Urshifu!
WAIT IKE HAS BLADE BEAMS WHY AREN'T THESE IN THE GAME
@@regalblade8171 Not interested. Ike is a swordsman first and Urvan is only used in non-canonical Heroes and Cipher art. Dual-wielding too is ridiculous and should only be reserved for Altina. Plus big slow moves like aymr and warlock punch are pretty stupid.
I just want blade beams cuz it's kinda Ragnell's entire gimmick.
I’ve been missing this content and I’m glad you’re back.
Same
Same
Lol I thought you were Poppt1 for a second 🤣
Kirby has his own “counter”, inhale. However it only turns into a counter when it inhales Dedede’s Gordo, or any big and / or strong projectile, but Kirby doesn’t actually instantly return it. You can spit it out to try to deal major damage, or just eat it. And eaten projectiles that aren’t instantly eaten don’t have the end lag.
that would make it a reflector, but yeah, same concept. i forgot about kirby inhale
I completely forgot Kirby could heal off of projectiles, haven't seen that since the demos lol
@@JB-ng1mg it's essentially useless in that it heals a flat 1% and has more endlag than a smash attack if you instantly eat it and still leaves you quite vulnerable if you just sit there and wait a bit to eat it
Dedede can reflect with neutral b as well ya know :/
Fun fact about counters in melee, since counters are a type of shields, you can perform the invisible ceiling glitch with counters, this happens a lot with Roy also, so many people think it's what Roy's counter is supposed to look like
I’ll be the one to say it- you’ve got serious guts. Two “negative” videos back to back? Don’t misunderstand me, this kind of content is INCREDIBLE. Most of the negative Smash content I see is people trying to use smaller points to prove a bigger agenda about the eternal “Which Smash is the best” debate, but these are purely design philosophy criticisms that are in nice, easily digestible forms while being incredibly comprehensive. Thank you so much for the work you put into these! I’d take as many more “negative” videos as long as you’ve got things to say 👀
Honestly, the whole which smash game is better all comes down to how you play, if you are more of a competitive player, then melee and ultimate will be high up, if you are a casual, Brawl and Sm4sh will be higher up
@@theStridingRebel IMO, which is the best depends on what unique gimmick you like the most. fast paced, flashy gameplay and gimmicky adventure mode in melee, SSE in brawl, master core, trophy rush and custom moves in smash 4, and WoL and "everyone is here" in ultimate.
@@theStridingRebel
i think even super casuals pick ult over 4, lol
@@theStridingRebel Smash 4 and Smash 5 has pay to win so...
Melee & Brawl = Best ones.
Smash N64 is pretty good too ofc.
@@user-s9eu8ce9fw no?? Dlc characters can be good but you don't need them to win. You just suck
I don't like that counters are hail mary kill options most of the time and I wish they all leaned more towards the Little Mac custom where they were weak but they set the opponent up for a combo or if they were just weak attacks that reset neutral. It would still turn around an exchange but it's true potential would only exist in your ability to follow up on it.
Incineroar's counter IMO is fucking perfect philosophy wise. Incineroar is a character designed to be hard countered by projectile spamming but Incineroar can use this predictable weakness to his advantage but ONLY if he can overcome the weakness of his kit which is closing distance. Incineroar can stack 100 Falco lasers but if he can never hit Falco it's completely pointless and Falco still has counterplay to incineroar by just grabbing him to reset his stacks as opposed to just laming him out like you would have to do against Cloud and Joker for instance in their respective super powered modes.
Incineroar's counter winds up adding 3 different avenues of skill in not only using it but taking advantage of it AS well as adding a skill layer to his opponent which is something not seen in any other counter.
The only time most counters are hail mary kill moves are if the opponent goes for disrespect or is over kill percent and thus it's a fair punish for pressing advantage too much.
Clairen's counter is really interesting since every character in RoA has what you could consider a counter due to the game's mechanics. The counter barely does any damage and does basically 0 knockback but instead it's used to solve a design issue with Clairen herself. That being that she needs to have some kind of way to deal with projectiles without having one herself. It's a cool subversion of a common trope (especially since she's basically the Marth of RoA) which also serves a lot of purpose design wise.
Clairens a she?
Clarien's a who?
When used correctly, a Counter is another layer of depth in a game of 4D Chess with your opponent. The knowledge of getting hard punished for whiffing it encourages smarter defensive utility.
But I know the thrill of armoring through an opponent's attacks to deliver a powerful magically charged fist into my opponent's face.
The counters from the newest characters have definitely become more varied and interesting. I also like the idea of counter-like attacks, like the ones seen in Pokken. In that game, everyone has a counter that can be fully charged or cancelled to act as a movement option. There are also a few offensive Pokemon moves that have counter properties that can be used to power through your opponent similar to Super Armor.
The counter exists specifically for ai players when they read your inputs
Counter in most regards are borderline the worst moves in the game but Cpus are godly with them.
Two words: Geese Howard.
And you can’t even bait it they know your every move every thought you don’t even have free will they control you they just let you win oh my goooooooooood
Cpu: *Is about to counter my neutral special
My final smash meter filling up right as I press B: *not today, kid*
I think Sakura’s inspiration for counters might have come more from games like Fatal Fury more than Fire Emblem, as the character Geese has one of the first counter moves in fighting games and Sakura is a fan of King of Fighters and Fatal Fury
Also, Yamazaki has sorta one, which consists in taunting the enemy, and once he gets hit, he counters
Sakurai's reason to give the FE Characters specifically a counter move was likely the one he explained (relating to the feeling of dodging and the attacking back that is relatively common in FE), but how it worked in Smash... It definitely was inspired by his love for Fatal Fury (Geese and also Yamazaki do counters).
*Terry voice* Geeeese.
12:38 boy that move does some very different things now.
All my archived Ike footage is outdated now >:(
I don’t get it
@@bobcat24 Ike Up-B
Im just gonna copy and paste the description for Vantage from the Fire Emblem wiki because that's probably the reference that the counter moves have pulled inspiration from:
Vantage is a recurring skill in the Fire Emblem franchise. It allows the user to initiate an attack when an enemy engages him/her in battle.
This skill is first introduced in Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War, in which the user will always attack first if the user has less than 50% HP left.
Genealogy of the Holy War was released in 1996 if anyone wants to know.
Vantage is more akin to Suckerpunch from Pokémon; You "use" the move, then if you're going to get attacked, your move (Suckerpunch or Vantage) will trigger and let you strike first. It doesn't take the hit, nullify the damage (optional), then auto strike back. You hit them BEFORE their attack comes out, but unless you kill off the Vantage/Suckerpunch, you're still taking the damage. I'd argue Sakurai's alleged inspiration is still closer to a Counter than Vantage since the former at least involves you taking a hit before acting in retaliation of that hit while Vantage literally reverses the order of things (you hit first even if it's not your turn, then your opponent retaliates against you).
@@espurrseyes42 But smash is not a turn based game. There is no way to design a move to work like vantage/suckerpunch. That is like saying watergun could not be based off of the pokemon move because it does no damage. The two games function differently. I am not saying he was inspired by this move, I dont even play fire emblem games, I am just saying your evidence that he did not makes no sense considering that these are moves being adapted across genres
@@extonjonas6820
Water Gun not dealing damage is an intentional design choice and still represents what the move does (shoots a stream of water at the opponent). Counter is EXPLICITLY meant to be based off something (Fire Emblem's combat system) that it doesn't properly represent. The two are not comparable, and if representing the latter properly isn't possible due to game genre differences, then maybe Sakurai should've opted AGAINST making it a defining feature of the Fire Emblem cast's gameplay to the post where 6 of their 8 reps have it.
@@espurrseyes42 What you are saying makes no sense to me. Every special move in smash is adapted to fit the game. You could probably count on both hands all of the moves that strongly resemble their source material in functionality or limitations. For example, even marios fireballs can be used without a powerup. That is because it would not make much sense to implement a power up system just so he can use a basic projectile. I really dont see the distinction you are making here. There are a ton of moves far less faithful and only capture the essence of something from the core game. I dont know why you think the counter is particularly bad. Maybe you just hate counters?
@@extonjonas6820
And most of those moves aren't "adapted" so much that they fail to resemble the thing they're based on. Mario's fireball still functions similar to its SMB counterpart. It may be slower, have a range limit, and be done with a Fire Flower (Mario has used Fire abilities without the need for that power-up before, namely in SMRPG where he actually does a variation on that attack WITHOUT the Fire Flower). Robin may not be able to use Nosferatu, which is also a ranged attack and not a command grab, but it still functions as a Dark Magic attack that drains health. The Fire Emblem character's Counters don't in ANY way resemble the combat flow of an FE battle without severely stretching it. It is a poor representation of the source its based on and shouldn't have become that franchise's "gimmick" if Sakurai couldn't represent it properly.
This video already explains why Counters are bad. They're oversaturated (thanks to Fire Emblem), usually not worth using when other options are available save for Witch Time (a notoriously broken move that got nerfed to the point of basically being a standard counter and not worth its use in most cases), and aren't conceptionally interesting with most being "block it, attack back". But at least in the cases OUTSIDE FE, those characters canonically have Counters/Counter-like abilities, and SOME of them get a bit interesting like Substitute, Revenge, Scintilla, and the two Counter-Reflect hybrids. None of this applies to Fire Emblem characters.
the point boils down to "if they aren't good, nobody ever uses them, but if they're too good, everybody hates them," but how does this differ significantly from any other move or move type? projectiles, standard hitbox generating moves, command grabs etc. all have to walk the same line
Because counters remove shield breaking. Normally shield pressure has a benefit, a break... but if you're being set up for a break you're able to resort to counters. This lowers the punish even if you fail, gets you out, and is relatively low risk comparatively.
Fun fact: If you can do an upper-crust female British accent, you can trigger the ptsd of any Smash 4 player with just two words!
@Guillaume Héroux Like you can ever force people to?
*SO CLOSE*
Not even two words. "gotcha" and "almost"
What are they?
Lol
9:03 Witch time is useless now.
While other counters like Peach guarantee an stock if you use it properly Bayonetta was nerfed so bad that I will prefer that Witch time was replaced by another new move instead of a watered version dat does not work EVEN at high percents.
Landing witch time in a character with 150% damage or above should guarantee you a stock.
Smash has a history of over-nerfing.
Brawl metaknight needed nerfs too but not to this level.
Peach's counter is strong but since it's a projectile moves that reflect beat it. Ex. shine, rotor arm, any of Hero's moves when he has bounce.
@@h-man1371 I am a Greninja-Peach player now. And both of those characters have a FUNCTIONAL counter. If you use it you get something out of it. A stock or some damaged. Bayonetta in other hand was over-nerfed and hardly gets a follow up after her counter.
Didn't Bayonetta recently get buffed?
In Sm4sh I wasn't able to buy DLCs so the moment I finally was able to play Bayonetta in Ultimate I feel like it was just a worthless move, like, what I'm supposed to do in half of a second besides side-b? That move is useless as hell.
I agree with most other points but I feel like the "Counters do a poor job representing Fire Emblem's mechanics" point is an overreaching nitpick more than anything.
No the counter in Smash does not *literally* work the same way counterattacking works in Fire Emblem. But it still goes in an order of oppontent attacks -> unit retaliates. It's really not that complicated and yet you spent a significant chunk of the video basically saying "well that's not how fire emblem actually works".
Normally I wouldn't care but I already know we're gonna see this point referenced in every thinkpiece about "Why Fire Emblem Characters in Smash are Bad" from now until the end of time. All for a nitpick.
I mean, fire emblem characters largely sucked in smash regardless and that is a fact. What was going on there? Swords, fire and dragons. Even if the inaccuracy does not matter, the move is still a keypart of the movesets that are just boring. Not to mention, if we want to play the game that it is similar enough, it is not really. Units in fire emblem can doubleattack when they counterattack, yet the counter in smash is not really a tool to set-up combos.
The key difference is that in Smash, the counter-er doesn't take any damage. If the designers wanted their counters to be more accurate to Fire Emblem, they could simply make it so that you take a fraction of, or even full damage. That might hurt the viability of the move, though.
@@lpfan4491 i disagree with counters being a bad move. Counters are supposed to be used punish obvious hits from opponents. In the safe on shield ridden meta game of ultimate, i believe counters are very good tool. Its supposed to be a easy call out tool. I think counters are given a bad name especially because ultimate is a spam safe on shield moves. In melee... yeah counters suck.
LPFan That's one of the reasons many of us who are both Fire Emblem and Smash fans wanted FE representatives who weren't just swordfighters. I mean, there's so much more to use than just agile swordies in FE: there's axe-users, lancers, archers, mages, healers, armored knights, flying units, units on horseback, transforming units, and more! Plus, there are so many skills and abilities that could be worked into Smash movesets.
Granted, most of what I mentioned have already included in Smash in some way or another, even though most of them still use a counter for some reason. Ike uses skills from his base game (most notably Aether), Robin uses magic and their base game's Pair Up mechanic (Final Smash only, though), Corrin makes use of their dragon transformations, and Byleth employs the use of 3 non-sword weapons. That's also not counting the Assist Trophies.
But yeah, the only FE reps that I find really unique are Ike, Robin, Corrin, and Byleth. All of the others feel like variations of Marth. I do like their inclusion, but I feel they, especially Roy & Chrom, could do with a few more interesting moves.
I agree that the counter isnt really derived from fe. But sakurai never said counter is directly taken out from fe, he actually said that counter is inspired by the turn base combat of fe. In fe, you are rewarded by counter attacking by luring in enemy troops with tanky units and defeating them with the the rest of your troops. It is kinda the same with counter, your opponent attacks u, but you soak up a hit and deliver a stronger counter attack. Again, counter is not directly taken from fe, but rather inspired by the combat system of fe.
1) Even though I don't like Sakurai's reasoning for designing counters, I think counters are still a good representation of FE's gameplay. A lot of high level FE is about baiting the enemy into a bad position. Move a unit into the enemy's range so they attack you, only to isolate that enemy away from its team. Counters are similar. You convince your opponent that you're vulnerable, only to use a counter on them and gain a hit in.
2) I know people who like the idea of counters. Even though other defensive options are usually better at the high level, some people like the idea of tricking the enemy into thinking they are vulnerable only to use a counter. My sister isn't that good at the game, but she loves using counters (as Lucina usually) to exploit the fact that people think she's not going to dodge their attack.
Something I would love to see a platform fighter attempt…
A defense system where the only form of block is a universal counter for all the roster.
It would really shake up the gameplay and force everyone to truly analyze their moves and how to handle the battlefield.
That's _kind of_ what Rivals of Aether does. Rather than having a shield like in Smash, characters instead have a parry, where if you time it right before an opponent hits, they'll be stunned for a bit under a second and you can follow up with a hard punish. It's not _quite_ the same thing as most of the counters in Smash since you still have to attack afterward (I guess it's kind of like Witch Time, but with a shorter stun rather than a long slowdown) but it certainly fulfills a similar purpose, and not being able to just sit in shield helps to make the game less defensive overall.
@@SSM24_ Haha, Ronald McDonald parry into 0-death combo go brrr
I haven't played in a while but I think Shovel Knight Showdown has a similar parry system to RoA, you have to time your button press to right before they hit you to knock them off of you
Most people using counters: wait for a moment when the opponent would likely attack
Me: haha counter go *_SHING_*
Me, a lover of grabs: Haha, the lil counter-boy goes AAAAGGH!
Hi mockrock. Regarding your plans for your archetype series, I think it would be interesting to talk about the multiple zoners this game has, and how each game has gone by adding a new and interesting way to zone the opponent, whether it be Samus' projectiles in 64, Min Min's arms in Ult, ETC. I think the history of how Zoners evolved and what the fundementle trade off that these characters get for extreme space control capabilities will be interesting. And maybe how these characters have been the subject of hate ever since online became a huge part of the game?
Honestly out of all the FE characters, Byleth would most suit a counter, since in her game she has an ability where she can reverse time and undo mistakes.
Wil E Been a while since I dived into the full skill system of awakening so I may be forgetting a way to steal skills but Chrom doesn't have access to the Myrmidon class which is the source of vantage and while half of Lucina's possible parents give vantage, the slightly pushed Sumia doesn't and Robin can marry everybody and gives every normal class.
As for the others Ike's skill capacity is often taken up by Aether in PoR and Nilhi in F10 (along with his unremovable Aether and Shove) and while that's a gameplay choice there is some push in the games to use those skills instead of skills like vantage. (Aether has a base conversation, is one of the ways to beat the Black Knight and is tied to his inherited fighting style, while Nilhi is given to Ike as a free bonus when he promotes and is somewhat of a necessity for endgame.) For the other characters all of them have access to vantage (though Corrin needs to either choose Samurai as their class or poach it) and use swords so have synergy with the class that gives it. Though overall I think Byleth has the edge as Merc is a pretty natural choice for them from both a progressional and thematic sense. (And the seeing the Future thing does result in a couple counter attack esque cutscenes)
And yet she's the only FE character that doesn't have a counter. (Apart from robin)
Mmmmmm, that's more Sothis not Byleth
What I think is the worst part about counters is that rather than avoiding a move to then cash in on punishing it, you simply take the attack before pulling out an stupidly powerful no u card.
I really like utility counters, because while they still have the annoyance of embracing an attack, to cash in on the reward you must still abide by the traditional rules of "not get hit by big attack"
I'd love to see more "counter as command grab" experimentation. Maybe even putting them in an actual grab so you get access to a real throw out of your counter? That might be pretty strong, but I can imagine a grappler getting a lot of interesting play out of that.
Your idea is brilliant. I would like to add a few things to your idea. The command grab counter does not work against projectiles. Command grab counter can be performed in the air, but does not go into a grapple. Instead, the character performs an aerial version of the forward throw automatically.
Thanks MockRock, I needed something to take my mind off the community and put it back on the game
In Fire emblem 4 and beyond, we can see a skill known as Vantage, one that allows you to attack before the opponent evej if they initiate, most commonly when the user is at lower health, hoping to kill the opponent before the attack.
This, from my perspective, is far more like how the "Counter", all the fire emblem unit have. Despite most of the lords not having it at base, like Ike, Corrin, Chrom and Lucina, or access at all like Marth and Roy, it still would at least make for a neat name change, even it it doesn't justify them all having one 😁
You like most people dont realize why they have counters. Sakurai wanted to represent the turn based combat of the game they came from.
@@bynightfall_4516 I'm pretty sure everyone remembers why FE characters have counters, but Chewyster is just saying that the counter is most like Vantage.
On the topic of counter being referenced to a skill, it could be possible that it could be referencing the vantage skill, which does allow the he attacked unit to attack first before the enemy (of course it varies with health requirements from game time game but the main use never changed). And it was introduced in fe4 genealogy of the holy war, which did release years before melee. Though this is just a theory of mine.
Vantage only allows you to attack first when getting attacked. While it does interrupt your opponent's attack, it doesn't function as a "block the attack, immediately strike back" type of move. It's more like Suckerpunch from Pokémon, which always strikes first, but will only be able to hit if the target was going to use an attacking move on that turn just like how Vantage lets you strike first if you were being attacked.
And then there's Sephiroth's counter
It's fair and balanced
A counter with several asterisks at the end, all surrounded by two pairs of quotation marks.
I mean, it is probably the only counter that can be reflected or absorbed, since it’s considered a projectile
i remember when you had under 1K subs, and I really wanted to see you succeed because of your entertaining style of content, keep on going! you're great at it!
I'm totally fine with counters existing as they can make for some fun moments. But sometimes it feels like the 'easy way out' when designing a character. Like I really think little mac should not have a counter as it just doesnt really fit in my opinion. I feel they could have done something cooler with him
Actually, a counter for Little Mac makes sense, he is a boxer and that is really common in boxing, but for character line Palutena, King K. Rool, Peach, and the FE character, is just a default for not having enough source material, I wouldn't be surprised if one day we get a Tetris fighter and it has a counter.
I actually think it makes sense. In boxing, slipping a punch and getting a good solid hit can happen pretty often among better fighters.
Oh okay fair enough. Thanks for explaining to the uninformed like me :D
@@juanrodriguez9971
Palutena is a reference to the "gift" (I think they are called like this in english) from Kid Icarus, as well as all her special, final smash and UpSmah iirc.
So it fits ^^
There's also the fact that Little Mac's counter represents Punch Out better than FE counters do. It's common that you wait for your opponent to throw out a move recklessly in Punch Out and punch them for slipping up.
I think it'd be interesting to take a look at counters in more conventional fighting games and how they play into the conversation. Sure, the Fire Emblem counters aren't really that truly representative of Fire Emblem as a series, but they are pretty similar to and reminiscent of counters in classic fighting games, simply with a lowered difficulty of use.
In my mind, Ryu, Ken, and Incineroar have the most interesting counters. They don't flatly retaliate - Incineroar uses Revenge to compliment his low-combo high-power moveset, while Ryu and Ken still attack even on whiff or if the opponent doesn't attack at all, making it more versatile than "predicting" an attack or guessing.
That said, I'd like to see a counter that actually puts pressure on opponents who play too cautiously. For instance, such a counter could fill a special gauge if used without getting attacked, and once filled, the counter would temporarily turn into a dangerous attack or even change the general moveset to cover weak points the character would normally have in his/her moveset. To make up for this level of potential pace control, during the counter stance, getting grabbed out of it would actually decrease the meter. Additionally, the move would have a cooldown period whenever you land a kill so you can't just fill the gauge while your opponent respawns.
On a side note: Byleth being called "creative" had me do a spit take. You owe me a cup of tea, dude.
so... limit?
An underrated aspect about counters is that they work on any damage dealing move, including projectiles and other counters. Countering projectiles can be useful against rushdown characters because the strategy of firing a projectile and chasing the opponent that's running away turns into running into the counter. And, while it's tricky to set up, countering forever is just fun to do.
Okay, I need to ask...
*Why don't they replace a character's parry with their existing counter, freeing up a Down-B move slot?*
Because what if you want to use a different move of parry. Like a combo starter or grab.
@@StudioEnergizerMV Hmmm...maybe make it so that the "parry" happens upon a perfect shield, and the "counter window" happens upon releasing the shield?
@@OatmealCreamPie that would be too hard to do, as releasing shield at the right time is exactly how you parry in the first place, its just a bad idea i feel
Sakurai had this in mind while programming Bayonetta in sm4sh
@@RurouniiJay he is sugjestin gyou change it for these cahricters to be more like melee where perfect sheilds are done with pressing the button
thanks so much for keeping up the great content, your content is so well thought out, and I love your videos so much!
I use Shulk's counter as an offstage mobility option since it changes with his arts. Especially in Jump and Speed modes, jump in the air can get me to center stage, and speed mode I can actually retreat a bit, and poke them to regain my stance. Or punishing a bad option in Smash or Buster mode.
I just realized that in your intro, it's all smash characters and then Sylvanos for some reason. I'm not complaining, though.
The Fire Emblem counters are like the skill Vantage (previously called Ambush), which was already in the Fire Emblem games before Smash Bros.
8:52 sora:I’m gonna pretend I didn’t see that.
It says the last counter introduced into smadh 4 sora is in ultimate
I still think Counter are fun to use, I understand the problem related to the fire emblem origin, however if they had a similar animation to spotdodge I would think that's a worst design that just a defend animation.
I personally think that Peach is the worst case for a Counter, I get the idea of using a Toad as a guardian or something like that, But Honestly of all the counter she's the one that makes the least sense of all.
I love Ultimate Aproach since I Believe a Counter is a Perfectly normal tool for a characther, to the point were I wonder if the next smash game would just add a dedicated button for counters instead of making them specials.
I think the Video is very well Research in the introduction of this moves, I still think there's nothing wrong with FE with Counter moves if they behave diferenly, Corrin's the best example, it not just looks diferent it also behaves diferently.
At the end of the day, this was a great Video, Keep doing this great work, MockRock.
Peach's counter is slightly better in Ultimate regarding accuracy since Peach plays damsel fully and Toad comes out and tries to defend her. I love that.
"counter surge can make some considerable *feets* "
u h u h
😂
I always forget how floaty the knock back is in smash 4.
What I feel could've worked greatly for Bayonetta is a slight rework. Her games explicitly say witch time is only activated when you time your dodge just right, but if you fail, attacks will phase through you. It could've been just like that in smash, you do down b and she starts a long intangibility and only for a few frames witch time can be actually landed. Once finished, she has less endlag than most counters. This makes it honest, balanced and true to her games.
Y'know? If every character had a unique special attack they could trigger by pressing B while shielding (like Steve's crafting table or Inkling's ink refill), or by holding shield + b in the air (with a few frames at the start of air dodge to cancel into a shield special), then the Fire Emblem characters could easily keep their counters while also giving them an extra move slot to work with.
If Mario's cape was a "shield special" he could use Cappy as his side special. Zelda's Nayru's Love attack, Mewtwo's Disable, Samus' bomb drop, Bowser's side special... a lot of moves could be reworked as shield specials. Luigi could use his poltergust as an entirely shield special... it'd take some getting used to but if they did it right it would make a really cool mechanic, and each character would get one more move to work with.
Some Smash Bros Characters on their counters:
Bayonetta: The power of being a Umbra Witch allows me to put the chill on these ruffians.
Dark Pit/Pit: Wait, what? I had a counter?
Greninja: GREN GREN INJA
Incineroar: For the power, I can tank those flowers!
Lucario: My aura allows me to predict the opponents moves, leading them to an abrupt end.
Mii Brawler: Rickety roll, time to YEET ur soul!
Except Bayonetta's human
@@sonomni Fixed.
Counters lend themselves more to casuals, fitting with Sakurai’s attempt to keep the series focused more on casual play than competitive play. Furthermore, a similar argument to Ganondorf’s moveset could be made as counters have come to represent Fire Emblem in Smash and, unlike Ganondorf, most players are introduced to or only know about FE because of smash, meaning that this train of thought is fairly warranted for the FE cast. I am by no means saying that this is warranted for Ganondorf, nor am I saying that FE reps don’t deserve proper representation from their games.
fire emblem: swords, lances, axes, bows, magic and transformation stones, alongside infantry, armor, mounted and flying, all used at the right time and place to win
fire emblem in smash: swords
It's worth noting that the counters in Smash are clearly modeled after counters in SNK games (which we know Sakurai is a big fan of), which are as far from casual as it gets.
The FE counters are decently representative of the Vantage skill, at least as well as Revenge is represented by Incineroar.
And for the record, in Thracia 776, the most recent Fire Emblem game before Melee, Vantage always activated no matter your health.
The thing I ALWAY HATE SO MUCH is when I'm fighting a CPU opponent and counter, but they read my inputs and don't hit me and punish me for it. Even worse is when they DO attack me but because of the change in air speed when countering their attack misses... and then they punish me for it.
My head started bobbing as soon as the crypt of the NecroDancer music started playing
Back when Ultimate came out, I remember feeling that counter attacks were somewhat devalued by the introduction of the parry mechanic. The way I saw it, if everybody effectively has a counter attack now, why do some characters have to give up a special move for it1
You ever start watching a video to answer a basic question only for them to start going off like "the game was released in north america in 2001 followed by europe and australia a few months later which reminds me of a story my grandpa always told me about..." and thats when you realize the video is over 20min long.
L0Ll
mock looks kinda depressed these days. Hope he's doing fine
Most smash players and youtubers are. This is a crazy time.
Yeah even HopCat didn’t sound as enthusiastic in his video of buffed smash characters but he could’ve just had a cold
JoJo Mama ya he said in the comments that he was sick the day he was recording
Shulk is one of the characters you absolutely switch the counter out, his visions are too big of a part xenoblade to not be represented
This video should be titled “history of counters in smash”. The video felt more like a history lesson on smash’s counters opposed to focusing on the problems they create.
My idea is that every character gets a "Shield Special" move (like Inkling's ink charge works) that is a purely defensive move such as a counter or a reflector
That would actually be pretty cool
Yes! Here's a good video about this: th-cam.com/video/5dd5aQ9t5ms/w-d-xo.html
A shield special would also present some interesting options since it could only be used on the ground (since you need to be able to shield to use it). Some moves, like Villager's down special, don't do anything off the ground anyway, so maybe a shield special would be a good spot to move them. Although I would miss Villager's pseudo-taunt shrugging animation
Its called a parry
@@lucatriom5175 Only if the shield special was a basic counter.
My brother: Is super obvious with his strong attacks and engages
Me: *laughs in corrin main*
being honest, i like the counter.
when me and my friends play, it can be a huge mind game between grab, hit and counter.
"Parry riposte" is a core idea in *sword fighting in general* in game design
The game I’m designing, which has dedicated melee and ranged attack buttons, goes the “counters as a core mechanic” route, with guard+ranged being a Bloodborne-styled parry against melee attacks while guard+melee reflecting projectiles, which get faster and stronger each time they’re reflected, allowing for Zelda-style tennis matches which provide risk/reward dynamics for both players involved. A special slot isn’t “wasted”, and opens up new options and opportunities in combat.
That sounds really cool, what's it called?
I think counters in smash actually provide a good representation of the fire emblem games. In fire emblem, if your defense and speed stats are high enough, you can actually block the enemy's initial attack and counterattack. Obviously it's not as fast and as fluid as Smash's counters but thats just because smash is a faster and more fluid game then Fire Emblem.
Mockrock: Having a counter That is less lethal than normal.
Me: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. That thing is sm4sh Corrin's Counter.
Great vid, but I think it overlooks one very important aspect of Smash's design that helps to justify the implementation of counter moves, which is that it's largely designed for its casual player base as more of a "party fighter" than a competitive fighting game. This matters when talking about how counters relate to other defensive options characters have. For instance, you mentioned "wave-dashing" as another option that could be taken in a given scenario. As a casual player myself who doesn't know a whole lot about competitive Smash, I have NO IDEA what wave-dashing even is, let alone how to do it and utilize it as part of a defensive suite, haha. The same is true about pretty much any high-level technique. Within the game's core design philosophy, counters aren't necessarily competing with those as defensive options, so they become a lot less niche in effective usage as a result. Just something to consider.
The fast shulk counter, when you hold forward during a ground counter, is something I use pretty often despite it being very risky due to being able to miss
19:16 "Oh my God" really is the most appropriate reaction to a Revenge-juiced Incineroar.
I appreciate where you're coming from but I'm gonna have to disagree. I think focusing on how useful it is in high-level play is an overly utilitarian way of viewing the move, especially when you consider that plenty of more traditional fighting games have moves that don't get a whole lot of use in high-level play despite those games being primarily designed with that in mind; it's just a consequence of the developing metagame that some strategies are gonna end up less useful than others.
I'd argue that Marth/Lucina's counter is a perfect "tone-setter" move for the style of character that they are. Marth is a zoner but unlike more traditional projectile-based zoners he has to rely on his disjointed hitboxes to control space. If a new player picks the character, knowing nothing about frame data or optimal set-ups or anything, the thing that's going to clue them in on how to play the character is their kit. The tipper mechanic is a great way of encouraging players to be wary of spacing, especially with the fantastic visual and audio feedback you get from connecting a properly spaced move, but the tipper mechanic could still go over the heads of a younger or more casual audience (it certainly escaped a younger me playing melee back in the day). The counter is even more on the nose about this play-style than the tipper mechanic, the sole function of the move is to anticipate an attack and beat it out. If some random kid picks up Marth or Lucina and runs around trying to land counters on their friends, then there's a stronger chance that they'll accidentally fall in to playing the character the right way than if the move was replaced with just another fancy sword attack.
Also I realised this while typing out this comment, but Marth's zoning playstyle is actually an excellent homage to the Fire Emblem games, which is all about exploiting positioning and weapon properties to win battles.
"counter"
*Laughs in Smash 64*
Level 9 CPU with frame perfect reaction: me go purple
I think you missed some good ground to cover by not talking about how much counters can invalidate some recoveries.
I don't know if you're sick of hearing this yet or not, but your freaking intro is incredible. Watching it and hearing that awesome music makes me feel like I'm about to watch something awesome Every. Single. Time.
My idea for a Fire Emblem character: each special move summons a unit, as if you’re commanding them in battle. Neutral special is a short range but high damaging axe wielder. Down special is a long range archer. Side special is a lance wielder with decent range but poor damage. Each unit can be attacked by the opponent and has a health bar. If they run out of health, they stay dead for the rest of the match. Not just the stock, the entire match. Perma death ain’t no joke.
Maybe, MAYBE if it was just for the stock then that could possibly work. But for an entire match? That is the absolute worse idea I've heard. This is like saying that if King K Rool gets his stomach smashed, he shouldn't be able to use any of the moves with stomach armor for the rest of the game. If your shield brakes you no longer can shield for an entire match. Kill a pikmin, no longer get that color. Nana dies for good, etc. This would be a terrible game mechanic and no one would enjoy playing a neutered character. Ask anybody that plays Ice climbers if they enjoy playing as just Popo and 100% of them would say no. Also think about this in a casual sense. Your summon gets hit with a final smash, welp, looks like you lost it. Playing a 10 stock match, better hope you don't lose one early. A system like banjo's wonderwing could work better, but even then that's one move that you have control of when you lose it, not 3 that's up to your opponent.
Yppah Dalg man I’m not reading this wall of text have a good day
The entire time I played smash I always thought counter was based off of the vantage skill considering you end up hitting the opponent first when they attack you.
Imagine a counter that lunges forward instead of staying still… maybe that’d fix the mobility issue counters have?
Don't Lucario and Geninja fit that bill?
@@jamiemccreath3959 and little mac
OP is saying a counter that dashes forward while they're in the state where they're waiting to get hit instead of after receiving an attack I think. If they were to do that I would think it wouldn't be very active then again Joker's counter exists so idk
@@StefanIsReal kinda like wonder wing but without a hitbox during the dash unless you get hit?
Greninja and Incineroar's counters are by far my favorite counters. They're so fun and can be used in such creative ways. These are counters done right.
There is the counter ability and vantage ability which achieve what the fire emblem counter does. We could also talk about how common fire emblem strategies premote having your opponent attack you first then reacting.