Ive had this issue, and what fixed it was stretching and regular exercise and forearm strengthening exercises... Basically, go to the gym man, it does wonders to all kinds of pain.
I've used a vertical mouse since 2016 for productivity work. I initially got it to help with "mouse shoulder", an RSI from using the mouse for long periods of time. The vertical mouse helped reduce the pain in my shoulder significantly. I found that I could significantly reduce forearm strain when using it by moving the entire forearm from the elbow, as opposed to moving my wrist at all. My biggest complaint is that after some time, the Anker vertical mouse I have had its surface become tacky/sticky. Luckily, they're cheap enough to replace when this happens, but I've wanted to try one of the Logitech vertical mice to see if they avoid this problem As for regular mice, I've found that the ultra-light gaming mice tend to work the best for reducing strain, because they just don't have the bulk other mice do. But, they do tend to lack the features of a productivity-focused mouse - no secondary scroll wheel, limited extra buttons in general, no infinite-scroll features. But they do work ok, especially when paired with something like the Deltahub Carpio
I also have had long-term issues with mice. I have carpel distal (Carpel tunnel on the right side of the hand) and I keep it barely noticeable, as in only a little numbness on my little and ring fingertips and no wrist pain by using a Microsoft ergonomic keyboard with the triangular hole in the middle. I can type without moving my hands and a Protoarc top side type trackball is what I use for a mouse. I do not have to move it and I can use it on any surface, on my desk, side tabl;e pillow, lap or thigh. I use my index and middle finger to navigate the entire screen after matching speed etc, in the OS, and my thumb for left click and ring finger for right. There is also a back and forward set of buttons above the left scroll wheel that is handy for switching pages. I can work 16 hours without pain.
I had extremely bad pain in my arms for years, a major factor was pour posture at the desk and the pain in the arms was caused by my upper neck and shoulders been locked up. I can’t use laptop because the head lean to view the screen gives my major arm issues. Using a desktop monitor raised high to keep my neck upright has helped a lot. I also have found contour mice to be the best. The wired one comes in 5 different sizes to fit different hands better, I’m currently using the wireless one which has adjustable tilt. Also keyboards like the kinesis advantage 360 have been a massive help too.
@@natee_lamm Maybe it’s the posture in which you use these things, try to see where is your pain. You must be using it in stressful positions like if you keep your laptop close to your body the hand needs to bend in difficult angles and that overtime can cause the pain keep and eye on that and adjust
Great quality video! I have the trackball mouse and I love it but I do find there are two tension points (as you do with your vertical and standard). I have been looking for something to alternate with and have been having difficulty but I think I may look at the vertical options to be able to swap between. Thanks so much! ☀
I’ve actually tried this, and I found that it was too restrictive. Some Physios have told me that it works, some others say it puts strain on other parts
I have two vertical mouses now, since i noticed the RSI in my right hand, i use both, one is for left hand and the other right.. i switch between both as working ...
I noticed the same, and the music didnt fit the video in my opinion. It had too many high notes, like 1:25-1:50 for example. 2:35 music was a lot better.
I really need something like the logi MX mouse, but in XL size. I have large hands and need something that sit's in the palm of my hand snugly. The cherry on the cake would be maybe a 10 degree tilt.
Long post warning. Third/fourth paragraph and down have the helpful info if you want to skip. I have similar problems with my wrist and arm when using a standard mouse. I converted to using a trackball for 3D modeling for about 5 years now and it seemed to help greatly. However, within the last year and a half I started to get those same discomforts/pains when using the trackball. My journey brought me down a similar path and I found that switching between them helped a lot. However, I game a lot too and using anything but a standard mouse just didn't help, so I kept looking. I would recommend tying some wrist rests. I started with a standard one. But after a while I noticed it didn't help. Actually use a brace for a bit and that helped greatly. But was impractical. I have recently tried the Carpio 2.0 and the Reloot glider. They have definitely changed the game! I would recommend the reboot glider for everyday tasks. In my experience it glides better and has a nice soft texture that feels good while still supporting well. The Carpio I use for gaming now. Tried the one with the strap cause I was a little tired of having to readjust sometimes with the Reloot. The carpio doesn't glad AS smooth as the reloot, but if you started out with the carpio you probably wouldn't notice like I did. Overall they have taken away the pain and discomfort I have when using a normal mouse and while I don't use them with the track ball I don't get any pain/discomfort using it now. Would highly recommend and please let me know if you do and it helps!!
Thanks for your comment! I do have a carpio and use it for the regular mouse. I find it helps with the lower wrist pain a bit, but not so much fro my upper forearm.
That's fair! I've never had upper forearm pain when using a mouse thankfully. All of it centers around the wrist, so what you said fits quite well. Also I'm glad to hear you have used it too. This way others can get another opinion on the carpio. I wish you the best in your journey and maybe one day we'll have a mouse that can actually help all of us that deal with this🤞
I switched to a vertical mouse and won't go back.Completely got rid of all my hand issues, for awhile I could not use my PC for more than 30 minutes without extreme pain.
You fixed your mouse, but you haven't fixed your keyboard. The layout is somewhat better then a standard qwerty. But because it's not a split and the tenting angle is almost non-existent, all of that contributes to strain within the forearms. If money is no object, the dygma defy is what i'd get. There is no real solution for the mouse situation, as you've said. If it's browsing you could use the vimium browser extension which takes some time to learn but combined with native browser shortcuts means you can do almost everything with keyboard alone. I've been looking for a new solution to the mouse problem, the closest i can get is eye tracking + trackball. Eye tracking will get the cursor in the general vicinity of where you want it to go. Because of that you don't need to use huge movements with your thumb to make the trackball cover alot of ground, which reduces the thumb strain.
fix the table height first, then the seat, then the keyboard and mice. i felt the most relief by resting my upper arm perpendicular to my forearm without extending forearm outward away from my torsos. it take times to learn how to touch type using that position, but it is worth it.
The problem with logitech vertical mice is that they are badly designed. They look pretty, but they are not even close to real ergonomy. In fact they are even worse than normal mice. The problem is lack of a pinky finger rest. This causes your hand to constanly slide down the mouse slope, so it's impossible to relax your wrist. The second design flaw is the insuficient cuvature of the buttons plate, that forces the fingers to be unnaturaly straight - this causes extra fatigue druring every klick. Also the top part is too wide so you can't really use it with the claw grip and move the mouse only with your wrist. I've been using Logitech Lift for a while and it was horrible. I tested a bunch of different brands that are properly designed at it was night and day.
@@milesara466 I'm currently searching for a perfect vertical mouse after my Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic started failing :). One of the best I had was UGreen MU008 - it had perfect ergonomy and was quite nicely made, but it had 3 problems - clunky scroll wheel, not programmable buttons and no charging. I had to return it unfortunately as programmable buttons are essential for me. Currently I use Kensington MY630 and it's really good - a way betten than any Logitech. I also want to test Delux M618 Mini soon as a cheaper alternative to Kensington.
Yes, it would be good to have a list of those you preferred so we may all benefit. I just returned to Amazon (within less than a minute!) a ProtoArc EM11 vertical mouse, as it was so slippy it was almost impossible to grip. I reckon it would have caused more problems that in solved, even tmhough the posture felt good. I'm beginning to think Logitech may be more style over substance these days. That said, my MX Master 2S is still my main standard mouse. It's just that I'm starting to feel arm lower and upper pain sometimes so would love to find a sweet spot vertical mouse.
@@mike-norris Hi. My #1 ergonomic mouse I've been using for last 10 years was Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic. It is not great but the ergonomic design of this device is absolutely incredible. Nothing comes even close to it. Ergonomy masterpiece. Unfortunately this model is now discontinued and there is no real successor of it on the market right now. I've been testing mostly vertical mice but they are more or less horrible. But a few of them were quite ok. Kensington MY630 was quite good, but only for people who really use the mouse by moving the whole arm, not mainly the wrist and fingers. The very long bottom lip that goes almost to the wrist made it useless for me. The best one I had was from chinese company Ugreen - MU008 model. The shape of this mouse was absolutely the best of all verticals i tested. The build quality was also good (except the clunky scroll wheel). Unfortunately the frimware was mesed up. It had some short freezes and extra buttons were impossible to remap - they could not be constantly pressed while moving the cursor. Big shame. Now I'm using Lenovo Go Vertical. It has a super high build quality, great scroll wheel and it feels reliable. In terms of ergonomy it is generally ok, but still far from my good old MS. The noisy clicks are annoying but I can live with it. I kept it only because I couldn't find anything better. I also tested some Delux and Hama models but they are mostly low quality garbage. Both Logitech models were just meh. So I can't really reccomend anything with true heart.
Thank you for the video, very high quality one
Ive had this issue, and what fixed it was stretching and regular exercise and forearm strengthening exercises... Basically, go to the gym man, it does wonders to all kinds of pain.
Been going for quite awhile now and I have found improvements, but no where near where I was before thus injury
I've used a vertical mouse since 2016 for productivity work. I initially got it to help with "mouse shoulder", an RSI from using the mouse for long periods of time. The vertical mouse helped reduce the pain in my shoulder significantly. I found that I could significantly reduce forearm strain when using it by moving the entire forearm from the elbow, as opposed to moving my wrist at all. My biggest complaint is that after some time, the Anker vertical mouse I have had its surface become tacky/sticky. Luckily, they're cheap enough to replace when this happens, but I've wanted to try one of the Logitech vertical mice to see if they avoid this problem
As for regular mice, I've found that the ultra-light gaming mice tend to work the best for reducing strain, because they just don't have the bulk other mice do. But, they do tend to lack the features of a productivity-focused mouse - no secondary scroll wheel, limited extra buttons in general, no infinite-scroll features. But they do work ok, especially when paired with something like the Deltahub Carpio
thanks for that info!
I will have to give the utlra-light mouse a try sometime
I had similar problems to you. Thanks for doing this review - good to know i am not alone in the struggle
Glad you found it helpful!
I also have had long-term issues with mice. I have carpel distal (Carpel tunnel on the right side of the hand) and I keep it barely noticeable, as in only a little numbness on my little and ring fingertips and no wrist pain by using a Microsoft ergonomic keyboard with the triangular hole in the middle. I can type without moving my hands and a Protoarc top side type trackball is what I use for a mouse. I do not have to move it and I can use it on any surface, on my desk, side tabl;e pillow, lap or thigh. I use my index and middle finger to navigate the entire screen after matching speed etc, in the OS, and my thumb for left click and ring finger for right. There is also a back and forward set of buttons above the left scroll wheel that is handy for switching pages. I can work 16 hours without pain.
Thanks for the tips! Do you happen to know the exact model of keyboard and mouse that you use? I’m curious to check it out.
I had extremely bad pain in my arms for years, a major factor was pour posture at the desk and the pain in the arms was caused by my upper neck and shoulders been locked up. I can’t use laptop because the head lean to view the screen gives my major arm issues. Using a desktop monitor raised high to keep my neck upright has helped a lot.
I also have found contour mice to be the best. The wired one comes in 5 different sizes to fit different hands better, I’m currently using the wireless one which has adjustable tilt. Also keyboards like the kinesis advantage 360 have been a massive help too.
Thanks for the advice! I’ll take a look at contour micr
Have you tried a Trackpad, I had this issue and moving to a trackpad helped sometimes using a combo of trackpad and a mouse. Give it a try and see.
i do bounce between my laptop trackpad as well but my fingers ache using it sometimes
@@natee_lamm Maybe it’s the posture in which you use these things, try to see where is your pain. You must be using it in stressful positions like if you keep your laptop close to your body the hand needs to bend in difficult angles and that overtime can cause the pain keep and eye on that and adjust
Great quality video! I have the trackball mouse and I love it but I do find there are two tension points (as you do with your vertical and standard). I have been looking for something to alternate with and have been having difficulty but I think I may look at the vertical options to be able to swap between. Thanks so much! ☀
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
I'm in the same boat. Forearm and thumb pain. Currently experimenting with a wrist locking brace.
I’ve actually tried this, and I found that it was too restrictive. Some Physios have told me that it works, some others say it puts strain on other parts
I have two vertical mouses now, since i noticed the RSI in my right hand, i use both, one is for left hand and the other right.. i switch between both as working ...
cool vid, found the music a bit too loud though.
I noticed the same, and the music didnt fit the video in my opinion. It had too many high notes, like 1:25-1:50 for example. 2:35 music was a lot better.
thanks for the feedback! I will lower it next time
@natee_lamm No music would be even better. Maybe fade it out after the intro. The content is good but the music is distracting.
Just found your channel, and it is super interesting with well made videos! Keep up the good work!
Glad you like them!
I really need something like the logi MX mouse, but in XL size. I have large hands and need something that sit's in the palm of my hand snugly. The cherry on the cake would be maybe a 10 degree tilt.
Long post warning. Third/fourth paragraph and down have the helpful info if you want to skip.
I have similar problems with my wrist and arm when using a standard mouse. I converted to using a trackball for 3D modeling for about 5 years now and it seemed to help greatly.
However, within the last year and a half I started to get those same discomforts/pains when using the trackball. My journey brought me down a similar path and I found that switching between them helped a lot. However, I game a lot too and using anything but a standard mouse just didn't help, so I kept looking.
I would recommend tying some wrist rests. I started with a standard one. But after a while I noticed it didn't help. Actually use a brace for a bit and that helped greatly. But was impractical.
I have recently tried the Carpio 2.0 and the Reloot glider. They have definitely changed the game!
I would recommend the reboot glider for everyday tasks. In my experience it glides better and has a nice soft texture that feels good while still supporting well.
The Carpio I use for gaming now. Tried the one with the strap cause I was a little tired of having to readjust sometimes with the Reloot. The carpio doesn't glad AS smooth as the reloot, but if you started out with the carpio you probably wouldn't notice like I did.
Overall they have taken away the pain and discomfort I have when using a normal mouse and while I don't use them with the track ball I don't get any pain/discomfort using it now.
Would highly recommend and please let me know if you do and it helps!!
Thanks for your comment! I do have a carpio and use it for the regular mouse. I find it helps with the lower wrist pain a bit, but not so much fro my upper forearm.
That's fair! I've never had upper forearm pain when using a mouse thankfully. All of it centers around the wrist, so what you said fits quite well.
Also I'm glad to hear you have used it too. This way others can get another opinion on the carpio.
I wish you the best in your journey and maybe one day we'll have a mouse that can actually help all of us that deal with this🤞
Isn't the intent with the vertical mouse that almost all cursor movement is done with the entire arm?
I hold mine with the fingertips and can do half my large screen without moving my arm at all.
maybe i've been doing it wrong all this time haha - I'll give that a shot
I switched to a vertical mouse and won't go back.Completely got rid of all my hand issues, for awhile I could not use my PC for more than 30 minutes without extreme pain.
thats wonderful! I do see its benefits and it has helped me a bit as well
Have you tried any finger based trackball mice? Like the ones from Kensington, they allow much more precision and are exceptionally comfortable.
not yet but I'll take a look at that!
what about trackball mouse that use the index or middle finger instead of the thumb?
someone else suggested that too, I'll have to take a look at those
Cool vid, was quite informative 👍
But I found the song to be a bit too loud to focus on your voice
noted! Thank you
the most annoying thing that they all come with a low poling rate which hurt my eyes way more than arms. But probably it's a macOS thing
You fixed your mouse, but you haven't fixed your keyboard.
The layout is somewhat better then a standard qwerty. But because it's not a split and the tenting angle is almost non-existent, all of that contributes to strain within the forearms. If money is no object, the dygma defy is what i'd get.
There is no real solution for the mouse situation, as you've said. If it's browsing you could use the vimium browser extension which takes some time to learn but combined with native browser shortcuts means you can do almost everything with keyboard alone.
I've been looking for a new solution to the mouse problem, the closest i can get is eye tracking + trackball. Eye tracking will get the cursor in the general vicinity of where you want it to go. Because of that you don't need to use huge movements with your thumb to make the trackball cover alot of ground, which reduces the thumb strain.
fix the table height first, then the seat, then the keyboard and mice. i felt the most relief by resting my upper arm perpendicular to my forearm without extending forearm outward away from my torsos. it take times to learn how to touch type using that position, but it is worth it.
Damn, u have so high quality videos but just 500 views. + Sub
thanks!
Solid vid. Try swimming next to rest.
thats a good idea! been meaning to get into it
820th subscriber
thank you!
The problem with logitech vertical mice is that they are badly designed. They look pretty, but they are not even close to real ergonomy. In fact they are even worse than normal mice. The problem is lack of a pinky finger rest. This causes your hand to constanly slide down the mouse slope, so it's impossible to relax your wrist. The second design flaw is the insuficient cuvature of the buttons plate, that forces the fingers to be unnaturaly straight - this causes extra fatigue druring every klick. Also the top part is too wide so you can't really use it with the claw grip and move the mouse only with your wrist. I've been using Logitech Lift for a while and it was horrible. I tested a bunch of different brands that are properly designed at it was night and day.
Hey, can you give a recommendation which ones you liked better?
@@milesara466 I'm currently searching for a perfect vertical mouse after my Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic started failing :). One of the best I had was UGreen MU008 - it had perfect ergonomy and was quite nicely made, but it had 3 problems - clunky scroll wheel, not programmable buttons and no charging. I had to return it unfortunately as programmable buttons are essential for me. Currently I use Kensington MY630 and it's really good - a way betten than any Logitech. I also want to test Delux M618 Mini soon as a cheaper alternative to Kensington.
Yes, it would be good to have a list of those you preferred so we may all benefit.
I just returned to Amazon (within less than a minute!) a ProtoArc EM11 vertical mouse, as it was so slippy it was almost impossible to grip. I reckon it would have caused more problems that in solved, even tmhough the posture felt good.
I'm beginning to think Logitech may be more style over substance these days. That said, my MX Master 2S is still my main standard mouse. It's just that I'm starting to feel arm lower and upper pain sometimes so would love to find a sweet spot vertical mouse.
@@mike-norris Hi. My #1 ergonomic mouse I've been using for last 10 years was Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic. It is not great but the ergonomic design of this device is absolutely incredible. Nothing comes even close to it. Ergonomy masterpiece. Unfortunately this model is now discontinued and there is no real successor of it on the market right now. I've been testing mostly vertical mice but they are more or less horrible. But a few of them were quite ok. Kensington MY630 was quite good, but only for people who really use the mouse by moving the whole arm, not mainly the wrist and fingers. The very long bottom lip that goes almost to the wrist made it useless for me. The best one I had was from chinese company Ugreen - MU008 model. The shape of this mouse was absolutely the best of all verticals i tested. The build quality was also good (except the clunky scroll wheel). Unfortunately the frimware was mesed up. It had some short freezes and extra buttons were impossible to remap - they could not be constantly pressed while moving the cursor. Big shame. Now I'm using Lenovo Go Vertical. It has a super high build quality, great scroll wheel and it feels reliable. In terms of ergonomy it is generally ok, but still far from my good old MS. The noisy clicks are annoying but I can live with it. I kept it only because I couldn't find anything better. I also tested some Delux and Hama models but they are mostly low quality garbage. Both Logitech models were just meh. So I can't really reccomend anything with true heart.