@@MagmaBow working with a new editor on davinci resolve cloud, sometimes it just decides a clip that was showing up fine is gonna disappear 🫥 when rendering takes 1-2 hours it's kinda not worth it for one clip
Thank you @HipyoTech for featuring Remy in this video and for dedicating the time to thoroughly review what a proper ergonomic assessment involves. It was a pleasure working with you!
Well, thanks for the in-depth style of video. Not just recommending new gadgets or reading from some 'papers'. You actually brought in someone who has no motive to sell you something. Appreciate that as a viewer.
so funny thing about "you gotta hit the homies with a posture check". When I worked in Player Support, we would always have one manager that would ping everyone and say "Shrimp Check!" and that was your chance to get up, or readjust if you need to. I loved it because it helped so much just as a general reminder.
As an ergonomic consultant, I have some thoughts: 1. Overall she did a fantastic job of breaking down the reasons why ergonomics is important and how the body is supposed to be positioned. 2. I would say the only area I strongly disagree is on the topic of arm rests and wrist rests. Contact pressure can be a concern for people with nerve impingement (btw it should say impingement, not hingement as it's written in 8:07) but that is much less common than muscle tightness in the neck and shoulders from having to support the weight of the arms. If your arm rests are in good condition and they allow you to keep your elbows close to your body then it's a good idea to use them. Same with wrist rests - especially if you're using thicker keyboards (like most mechanical keyboards) they can keep your wrists in a more neutral position than if you have your wrists on the desk. If you float your wrists with no support, this can work, but again this can cause muscle fatigue so resting the wrists while typing is helpful for most people. 3. I would love to see a follow up on what your set up looks like post assessment. Great video.
Agreed. She was solid. Something I'll throw out there as a multi-decade Datahand user -- palm rests and wrist rests aren't the same thing. A keyboard that reduces movement and forces to the bare minimum, such that the hands themselves don't need to move *at all* in use, allows the palms to rest comfortably, mostly decoupling that support chain from the shoulders, so you can recline and relax the entire core to a much greater degree. It's a huge reduction in workload and can be highly beneficial for folks who suffer from tendonitis, carpal tunnel, and other connective tissue pathology. As far as I know, there's no keyboard out there other than Datahand/Svalboard/Lalboard that actually achieves this, but folks using e.g. Glove80 with a subset of keys can get pretty close. The diagonal reaches to the center columns (T/Y/B/N) are the typical sources of ongoing injury in that configuration for susceptible populations.
I agree with both of you. In my experience muscular problems are more common than nerve problems. (Sry for easy language but I work in Germany and don't know how to describe it better 😅)
My elbows and wrists are "bendy" hypermobile (they easily overextend into positions bad for my joints and nerves). I feel like everyone knows about Carpal Tunnel Syndrome but I have Cubital Tunnel Syndrome aka Ulnar Nerve entrapment. The nerve running through my elbow to my hand gets compressed when I bend my elbows or put pressure on them. Which is so easy to do because of my hypermobility. Luckily my non-dominant arm/hand is the bad one most of the time. But the advice I get to make it better is to not bend my arms which is very limiting 🤦🏻♀️ wearing arm braces to bed with my CPAP makes me feel so claustrophobic 😅
Hi I'd like to ask a question if anyone with more knowledge is able to help. She talked about how you want to be scooted in as much as possible (13:40), but don't arm rests limit this? Are chairs better without arm rests? Or if a chair doesn't have arm rests does that mean the keyboard should go back further? Arm rests make me feel so far away. I'm sure it depends on the person, but I was just curious.
I almost quit my last job after a complete lack of ergonomics gave me some incredible forearm tendonitis and carpal tunnel syndrome. The entire issue was fixed by raising the chair (at the expense of my short legs dangling a bit). I also found THE BEST STRETCH for carpal tunnel: -Make a T-pose with palms facing up -Extend fingers back (towards ground, to a comfortable extent) -Moving just your elbows, make the shrug emoji ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Move between those positions several times -- you should feel a very nice stretch down to your fingertips. Nothing stopped the pins & needles in my fingertips like this stretch did.
Lets get a thread going? The best one I've been taught for my neck/upper back pain is: - Lift your right arm towards to the roof - Look left - While looking left, reach up as much as feels comfortable. Keep your back straight, don't lean away as you reach. - Lower the right arm, lift your left arm and look towards the right, reach up - Keep alternating arms and looking the other way for a couple dozen times, and do this a couple times a day Works absolutely great for me. Can be seated or standing.
@@AleksiJoensuu a good ulnar nerve stretch is making finger glasses with index and thumb, but turn your hands upside down so your palms are on your face.
the bit about communicating your movement breaks with game buddies is so based. Really feels like she’s taking the reality of how people use their setups into account
I'm a larger person, so I'm one of those people who have to rotate my hands inward to accommodate my frame using a standard keyboard. I also have a shoulder injury which permanently damaged my labrum, so my right arm (I'm right-handed) lights up like a Christmas tree when I'm not keeping it in a neutral position. The split keyboard is the only thing that helps with this. It was a definite learning curve, especially learning the navigation of layers, but the Keebio Iris has been pivotal in almost eliminating the pain I feel when typing. I highly recommend it for people in a similar position where standard keyboards require an inward rotation.
Yes you have to keep your arms and wrists straight....or type with only one hand. Are you also using an ergonomic mouse with the buttons on the side? The Logitech MX Vertical for example. For typing like work or commenting here a split keyboard is the best. For gaming a smaller keyboard is enough, since you usually keep your other hand on the mouse.
@@gucky4717 I have used a vertical mouse in the past when I was doing work which required more point and click (Salesforce). Now that I'm mostly coding in Javascript/Typescript/Vue.js, I generally do not use my mouse that often during the day. My mouse generally comes into play when I'm gaming, so I have a logitech G600. I also have a layer of my keyboard devoted to gaming, so my left split and my mouse covers everything I need to do with modifier keys.
Split keyboard was a major win for me. I am experimenting with the kinesis 360 now. The thumb cluster are also a win for me since a lot of my pain was from how much I use control and shift. The tenting also seems to be helping because it allows me to change the position/ angels of my arms/wrists. It is personal and does depend on what your specific issue is but I’m optimistic this might help.
I think getting a motorized standing desk and a $20 folding chair is enough. The problem is trying to minimize the damage of sitting with expensive chairs instead of minimizing sitting. Just make sure the desk goes low enough to sit comfortably.
@@charliesretrocomputing no, there is a free version, which lacks 10 bit support, some effects lacking, multi gpu support and some other things. is cool and all but if you serious about it you gonna need studio(paid) version
@@charliesretrocomputing You can buy the Studio version which has a few more features (some ML based features & more GPU acceleration), but the free version has basically everything you need to edit
Im 27 and have a bad back and arthritis in my left knee. For about a year now ive been gaming on the couch streaming my pc to my phone with a gamesir g8. Its been great. I could not game at my desk for over an hour. So streaming has been saving my ass.
I do something similar for similar reasons, I use Parsec, the paid version ($10 a month) gives you access to a different codec for streaming games (H.265) and its buttery smooth for gaming. And another bonus is that the original codec (H.264) is a lot better for office work. I used it for school and coding to access my desktop for running really heavy coding projects off of it remotely.
A bit similar, but I sit at a desk at work all day, (but I'm a computer nerd) so when I'm at home - most of the time I sit in my recliner and have a monitor on a stand that can swing into my view. My recliner arms are rectangular shaped so I can put a mouse on the arm, etc. I don't do heavy typing, but can put a small keyboard on a pillow on my lap. I can watch videos comfortably, basic pc stuff, play games, etc. and I like it.
The current meta on posture is 'next posture is best posture '. So what you need to do is every thirty or forty minutes, to change to another posture, better to move around.
Oh yeah, i had severe hand/finger pain some years ago. People would say things like 'carpal tunnel' and 'inflammation'. In truth, it was mostly pinched nerves up at my shoulder and i just needed to stretch.
Likely the culprit for your pinched nerve is actually up in the neck rather than in the shoulder. Bad posture at your desk / lack of good ergonomics can absolutely be a cause for that. Speaking as someone who has had years of issues with pinched nerves in the neck due to time spent at the desk.
@@Lazlo-os1pu I have headaches for example. Those came from the neck and were caused by a bad pillow/matress, although I have slept many years like that... So the desk is not the only problem. We aren't getting younger :D
This video actually helped a ton! Especially the tip about bringing the keyboard in closer, I don't even need the wrist rest anymore. And I finally got my chair in the right position.
At my work, we have an ergonomics expert on staff solely for this (we have like 7,000 employees) and he LOVES it; its so fun to have an appointment with him and you learn so much
So for me, the biggest change to reduce elbow pain was to get a keyboard with tenting. I now have a motorized desk, and a proper chair too so im sitting in a proper height, which helps too. I cant use a regular keyboard for more than 30 minutes without pain bc of pronation. My elbows start complaining immediately. I use the dygma raise keyboard, and am eagerly awaiting the V2 in october. That said, i will be trying out some of the tips outlined in the video, like having the keyboard closer to my body, and raising the desk a bit. also to avoid resting my elbows on the arm rests! good stuff!
I love this. What resonates with me most is the body posture and the desk/chair height. When using an adjustable chair, I tend to adjust the height a lot to try to find that comfortable, neutral position.
I own one (1) mechanical keyboard and I'm not really looking for one more, but I do love this channel. There's an S-tier combination of your clear expertise and passion for keyboards in some videos and really helpful and approachable videos about living life like this one.
this was fantastic! I was recently diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, aka the stretchy skin and joints that pop out of their sockets syndrome. I feel like I got some good advice about what little things to tweak to find a more comfortable position in which to work and also have decent posture. I feel like having it come from a channel about keyboards that I'm already invested in helped me digest it and understand it better.
this was super interesting, thanks for putting this together. Always fun to listen to a professional talk about stuff like this. Definitely got me thinking about my own setup
i'm going to graduate school rn for occupational therapy and this video makes me happy. thanks for shouting out my profession that people often don't know much about
8:05 My darling, she says "impingement", not "hingement". Also worst/worse is killing me right now xD Thank you fellow Briton, I did make it to the end! Judging by everything you covered here, that $309 was a friggin' BARGAIN. About as much as a good bike fit, and thinking about it, it's kinda the same job, just a different application. Big thanks to Raimi (what, like Sam?) and of course, your bad self for this one.
@@HipyoTech I also immediately clocked it was "impingement". Very common term when talking about ergonomics and RSIs, it's when something is intruding on the space of something else like when inflammation in the carpal tunnel impinges on the nerve that runs through there.
@@HipyoTechThis chair actually allows you to do this, the HM Aeron doesn't, for example. So, I just change the position of armrests so that my knees aren't touching them, and that's it!
My work has the Aeron but they only have size B and because I’m so short it cuts into the back of my knees (seat pan is too deep) and no fun. Currently using a steelcase gesture at home and I frequently sit cross-legged but after a while (and sometimes with a 20+lb cat on the lap) it hurts my knees and hips.
I have pretty bad carpel and cubital tunnel due to my day job and that is what started me going down the ergo rabbit hole. When I talk to people asking questions about it and looking to reduce their pain, I always tell them that there is no one answer and that it's an adjustment and tweaking of variables. I am so glad that you took the time and money to make this video. It drives that point home and hopefully will help some people looking to improve their setups. I am a keyboard tray person rocking the Cheapino V2 keyboard, which is a super affordable board so it's really not as inaccessible as some might think to get a good ergo board setup that works for them.
Man am I grateful I started my career at an ergonomic furniture manufacturer. Not only did we use their chairs, desks, etc. but part of new hire orientation went over the best way to use them. They also had ergonomic specialists who would give us reports (less worker comp cases and maybe cheaper insurance?) which was super helpful. When lots of jobs became remote or hybrid, I tried a few chairs before giving up and calling a former coworker to get one of theirs.
Honestly loved this video. So much about online or "gamer" culture is about what is cool or hardcore or whatever, so it's genuinely nice seeing someone talking about healthy habits and avoiding pain.
Yep, made it all the way to the end. One thing that is more old school but very helpful is an adjustable keyboard tray. She mentioned it. Adjustable keyboard trays allow you to have the keyboard and mouse almost directly over your lap and even allow slightly negative angle to allow for chunky keyboards to be flat essentially when you are typing. Way back in the early 2000s I was typing up high and injured my wrists and had tennis elbow. Getting a keyboard tray helped eliminate most of that because it brought it down to that comfortable zone right in front of you in your lap. I'm on team ergo and love my Kinesis keyboards. That being said, just having a keyboard that can be split and moved apart by a few inches probably produces most of the beneficial effects of a Kinesis keyboard if it's at the right height. Good video.
As an older person that has worked with computers most of my life I would like to highlight a few things: Most desks are too high but you can fix it for very cheap: just raising your chair and getting a foot rest can make a world of difference. Also, office chairs are cheaper and better than gaming chairs almost always. Avoid racing chairs that push your shoulders, they're designed to help you hold the wheel under G forces, not to use a keyboard and a mouse. Adjust your lumbar support correctly so that you don't slouch, it can feel weird for a few weeks but you'll get used to it and feel better in the long term. And most important of all, take as many rests as you can, get up and stretch your hamstrings. Hamstrings are very strong, they shorten when you sit and hurt your back when you get up, so stretch those suckers a lot.
13:50 I used to play a lot of Counter-Strike when I was a teenager and I had my keyboard and mice way too deep in the desk and I eventually started getting horrible wrist pain, I eventually started positioning my peripherals near the edge and while my aim sucked at the beginning (and it never got as good as it was before) the pain went away and many years later I still find it to be the most natural
I appreciated the reminder that it's not a 'one size fits all' proposition and, apart from the basic advice, it takes a bit of trial and error to find comfortable solutions. And, yes, I did watch to the end.
In more stressful gaming situations I've been having issues with my hands getting almost asleep and really cramped, it requires a good 10min of mildly painful rest to get back in action. Partially thanks to this video I reflected back on it and I think I figured it out, my arm is pushing against the edge of the desk because my keyboard is too far back. When I don't need high inputs per second it's fine, the blood flow is limited but it's not causing pain, but when you start needing high reactivity and really straining the hand, the blood flow just isn't keeping up anymore and it gets sore really fast. I moved it forward, adjusted my arm so as to actually use the arm rest, and ordered a nice soft wrist rest since contact pressure seems to be my biggest problem.
Stress, and frequent stress, is known to be a musculoskeletal pain factor. Cortisol and adrenaline have an effect on your muscle, your nervous system and your ability to rest up and regenerate muscular cells. I would recommend to alternate games, find some way to cool down, or just to git gud
@@docthorr Who would have thunk that finishing an armored core 6 boss by fist-fighting them after running out of ammo might be stress-inducing ? As I've mentioned it really feels like my hands are falling asleep like when you're not sitting correctly and your leg doesn't have enough blood flow and becomes painful to move and barely responds to you. stress probably is a factor here, but would you say it could be a main factor ? or could it "just" be making the blood flow problem worse ?
@@ledocteur7701 I don't know you enough to state that's the main factor ;) But it has an effect to consider I think you pinpointed your problem. Also, I'm french and an ergonomic expert. If I trust your pseudo you're a French speaker. Are you around ?
@@docthorr thanks for the offer but I'm not interested. If it becomes a more recurring problem I already know people who can help. Thanks for the info though.
i made it very simple. whats the one chair i dont have issues with? a couch. whats the 1 person equilavent? a stressless recliner. removed the legs and installed officechar wheels. lowered my desk and LEANED BACK, sliding my contraption UNDER the desk so my arms are fully resting on the desk. the way they would if you had a desk hovering over your couch, that thing you keep imagining when youre sitting at a couch. yeah. to hell with hermeme memeller chairs, 12 years into this endavour never looked back.
Get a simple back and seat padded chair with no arm supports. Make sure that in your relaxed posture your arms are flush with the table and mouse, have your back supported by the backrest and feet properly planted. There you go, no carpel tunnel, no elbow pain, no wrist pain and no back pain. The rest is nonsense, your body will automatically adopt the most comfortable position for itself whether you like it or not.
This was vary helpful and all so well edited. Like I am a editor and I love how there was a lot of cuts and spice at the beginning " maybe a bit to much .. idk I play with that to" But then it started to slow down and really educated me. Now I am siting different. Hope I can make it last. Grate stuff. Probably be sharing this one with a few people.
Really insightful video! Took away a few really solid tips that would be helpful for improving my own workspace. Thanks, Hipyo! ((Also noticed a few hate comments already, please ignore them they're cringe))
Changing to a vertical mouse was a big game changer for me. It took a bit to get used to it, though. I would have loved to hear more about mice types and trackballs.
Picking up my nicotine and caffeine addictions has been the most ergonomic decision I've ever made. A smoke break every 30 minutes, a break to make coffee twice a day. Getting up and walking a few meters has done wonders for my lower back pain. Better for my eye strain too
I was suffering greatly on my lower back and elbows, finally got a good chair and it CHANGED My life. Probably a better buy than every PC component I have.
Student in human factors engineering here! Some variation helps a lot. No posture, no matter how optimal, can be used long term, I mean like hours. The same with devices that you use. Remember to take some breaks as well.
I learned that wrist and elbow pain from gaming can be caused from a strained rotator cuff. I started doing tissue work and strengthening exercises for my small rotator cuff muscles as well as shoulder delt workouts. I haven’t had elbow or wrist pain from gaming in over a year since I started.
I got these $20 slide on like "sock" arm cushions (plush cushiony material not actually like socks) that go on my chair's arms. Absolutely amazing and solved my wrist pain completely, so insanely soft. Seriously try out something like those if you are interested. The brand I got was called Aloudy but I am sure there are better brands out there too
The standing desk thing is so real. I spent a lot of time looking for one that could go low enough for me, and I'm not sure if the company that made it even exists anymore lol
I solved this problem by putting my chair higher and then also putting risers under the desk for my feet. Essentially, I couldn't make the desk lower so I made the floor higher.
This is actually a fantastic video. I learned so much about ergonomics and how to do extended work sessions. Thank you sir Hipyo and madam ergo consultant
Two things that helped me the most when I started having constant golf/tennis elbow pains, back pains and some wrist pains, were an ergo keeb (Keychron v10 in my case) and a table extension, so I can get my whole forearm on it. It's so nice. You know the ones with like a hole for your belly. Adjustable height desk was a good one too. I used to sit on my foot too, but let that go. I probably can't even bend my feet like that at my age any more :D I really want a Herman Miller Aeron, but haven't splurged yet (used/refurbs are pretty affordable, 500-600€). My employer paid for an IKEA Styrspel mesh chair, which has been really nice, kind of an Aeron LITE. After 30, you start caring about ergonomics a whole lot more when you start making noises getting up etc. :D
this made me realize ive had my arm rests a tad too high. I personally think the Aeron trumps the Embody, and I've been using mine for about 3 years now, really loving the change. Great video!
Ergonomics and desk posture I’m constantly trying to improve, have RA so back, hip, shoulders, hands, wrists all take a beating. Work 8hrs a day at my wfh office, 2 days in the company office, it’s so difficult, thrown so much so much money away trying to find solutions, I really worry about my long term posture health. Love to draw and that’s when I’m my worst, I get so focused learn in, completely forget everything and end up in pain. Great topic Hipyo, may not be cool, but important to us all at some point. Seeking independent advice sounds a smart move. Had 3 work ones, which are so quick and just a check box exercise. Thanks makes me think I need to seek advice 👍
I have tried a lily58 and I absolutely love them. The only gripe is that because it's hand soldered and all that, it end up having some build issues. To me tenting kit is a game changer, having the board on flat surface just twist my hands too much. I ended up having like a 30-50 degree tent and those feel very comfy to put my hands.
Hear me out. Lower the arm rests as much as you could and bring the chair to the table as well. In this setup you might need to place the keyboard and mouse away from you. With this you should be sitting in 90 degrees angle but your arms are required to be on table because we're very close. I'm sitting like what they show us, 90 degrees everything, but I'm very close to my table so I'm using it to take the weight from my shoulders to my forearm, forearm is resting on the table all the time and wrist doesn't bend so much, I can use my elbow to make big movements and correct it with my wrist if I'm aiming in a shooter game.
As I'm identifying my health problems I learned that most of them are because stiff shortened muscles. If you keep certain muscles in shortened state that makes their range shorter. My pectoral and latissimus are pulling shoulder forward creating pain in shoulder blades and carpal nerve impingement (straight arm holding mouse). Palm muscles (thumb and opposing side under pinky) press on nerves because of mouse gripping. Right leg groin pain because of mostly crossing legs over knees. Now I have to go through literal torture to stretch muscles + train opposing muscles to pull them back.
Best solution is 40% split : split for the shoulder and wrists rotation/position, and 40% for reducing fingers movement. With only 3 layers + one numbad layer, you can literally have the equivalent of a full size keyboard and more (basically 40 keys x 4 = 160 keys...). I only ever use a non-split keyboard for gaming, and do all the typing and coding on a split keyboard with silent Gazzew Bobagum switches (they don't have the hard knock at the bottom) which wildly reduce the crazy joint pain I get in fingers after an intense day of typing.
As a young guy it didn't matter what I sat upon. I literally used the cheapest Ikea desk chairs and it was fine. Until I developped lasting back pain in my early 30s. In 2016 I got my first gaming chair and sitting on them fixed it completely. But since those usually only last between 1 1/2 to 3 years before the PU leather starts breaking up everywhere I made the mistake of getting an expensive ergonomic chair by Interstuhl. Long story short it hurt both my back and my upper legs so badly to sit on that thing after a while, I went back to gaming chairs after a few months and everything disappeared again. Only difference I chose cloth this time so when it starts getting holes they won't be pointy anymore. I guess the perfect chair design for yourself is as individual as the human body.
One thing that has been absolutely incredible for me, is a vertical mouse. I have tried a bunch of them, and landed on the Logitech MX Vertical. I do wish they made a gaming mouse that was vertical and had the buttons on the side for say an MMORPG. But we haven't gotten there yet it seems. This one change has really helped me with wrist fatigue where after 3-4 hours of working, or gaming I couldn't deal with the pain. With the vertical mouse that pain is pretty much gone. I can go a full 8 hours of work (with a few breaks of course) without pain.
You could hack up an MMO mouse into a 3d printed vertical shell or swap the internals from one over into a cheaper vertical mouse. It would be kind of a kludge but worthwhile to prove the concept
I also noticed standing desks don't go low enough for some super strange reason. Which is when I stopped looking at them and started my focus on adjustable coffee tables instead. Some of them even look like an executive desk!
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this was a good video idea to branch out. It was really informative and related closely enough to the content I would normally come here for.
I've been using a Steelcase Gesture for over 8 years and it's like new and still so adjustable it fits me like a glove. Initially I thought there wasn't enough padding on the arm rests, but... turns out that just helped me break the habit of leaning on them.
Been having recent pain so this comes at an excellent time! Going to try a split/tented board, raise my chair a bit, and move everything to the edge of the desk/scootch the chair up more. We’ll see where that gets me.
As a PC gamer, Cashier and Guitarist. * Monitor raised so the top 70% is in eyesight, chair leaned back 15degress to lessen strain on your lower back - hands should never go up or down for extended time. * Arm and wristrest isnt neccary for doing stuff and then resting - but to support your body. If you use them and dont feel like its going up or down from natural position - they're doing their job. * I got my armrest and wrist rest pretty much alinged for the keyboard to lower stress on shoulder - and im moving around alot so there is no stagnation.
Like going to the gym to work out, or sitting to eat something you dont make this activities for long hours. You need to take your time, when you start feeling pain stop the clock. This is when you start stretching, change activities or just walk a little bit. So use this time as a reference for avoid the pain. For example I can type or play games for 2 hours, then I need to stretch or go to refuel water, no more pain. Also every chair is different for every person, but the point is to NOT THINK at all about the chair, not to be confortable like a bed, that's why the Embody is so good, not confortable but you forget about it.
Some great tips there. I particularly like the one about putting mouse and keyboard right on the edge of the desk. That works particularly well with a trackball (which doesn't move around). I think most of us are better off without armrests. Zero "contact stress" for me, please. When I got my first office job all the chairs had fixed arms bolted on. Once I got myself in the 90-degree elbow and knee position, the arms would always get in the way of my elbows, forcing me to hunch my shoulders. It was a recipe for disaster while touch typing and I developed some RSI in my early '20s. So I used to take a screwdriver to work, and remove the arms. Nearly 30 years later I'm still using chairs without arm rests, and I'm still RSI free. 🤞
Bad chair's back and chairs in general are such a bane. For some reason most office and 'gaming' chairs I've seen are made in a way, that you slide down out of it, and chars back is impossible to fix at some specific position, it's either fixed in some default one or in a moving state with not enough support, especially for lower back.
I have the same exact chair you do. I frequently find the arm rests not being movable and having such a short vertical adjustment range makes it hard to both bring the chair close enough to the desk and to keep the arm rests out of the way when actively typing or mousing. But the lumbar support is *perfect* for me. Also, to anyone considering a corner desk: DON'T DO IT. Corner desks are REALLY BAD for your ulnar nerves.
excellent video. just one little note: that is not the dygma Raise 2, that is the Dygma Defy, It is a good keyboard but is too expensive, the main benefit for me is the integrated tenting that it has, different angles so you can choose what is most comfortable
15:46 Thank you!! As a very short person, finding a desk that goes low enough is so frustrating. I did research to figure out what height I need. I'm moving soon and I'm going to get a 3 stage desk so it goes low enough. I don't understand why so many desks are so high. As you say, you're pretty tall, so the fact that your desk doesn't go low enough is kinda crazy. You can raise the chair instead, but then your feet would be dangling. I currently can't raise my chair higher because there is a drawer under the middle of the desk so my knees won't fit under it. My desk just isn't comfortable and I hate using it. I'm looking forward to getting a nice set up in my new place, but I was worried I'd spend more than I need for stuff. This video helps me feel more justified, thank you. Also I never thought about moving the keyboard closer. I have a laptop only now and no separate keyboard, but I'm planning to get one and now I know where I should place it. Thanks again!
This was so informative, I appreciate you shareing the assessemnt with us. I recently purchase an Ajazz AKS068 Pro 68 trying to find a keyboard that would relieve some hand fatigue and soreness. But after watching this video I see there is more to it than just the keyboard I'm using.
@hipyotech thank you so much for this video, I’ve been dealing with shoulder pain for quite some time just thinking it was from picking up my boys all these years when it occurred to me that I haven’t done that in SO long that I shouldn’t still have that pain anymore. Since that thought, I’ve been on the road to better ergonomics because at this stage in my life, I don’t want to have to get into a new career. (UNIX Engineer by day.) I picked up a new ZSA Voyager Split Ergonomic keyboard to see if that helps and next on the list is a better chair since the old hand-me-down chair from my previous employer isn’t doing me any favors. Can’t even come close to being able to afford a Hermon Miller, so we’ll see what that brings. Thanks again, because now I have more things to look out for.
Couple comments about 40% keyboards. You don't actually need to buy a tiny keyboard to use a 40% layout. I still have a standard number row, but when I press the layer switch with my thumb I also get numbers at the QWERTY row and functions keys at the number row. Biggest benefit a proper 40% keyboard provides are extra thumb keys for layer switching in more convenient positions. To help learning to use a 40% layout you can switch your keycaps to show the 2nd layer keys. Of course this only works if you use a cap style where every row has identical profile, like DSA, XDA or NP. I can remember perfectly fine where the letters are, I don't need the keyboard to spell out QWERTY (or PHRKW with my custom layout), but it is very helpful that the home row caps show "< > { } ← → ( ) [ ]" or where the less used special characters are on the bottom row.
I love doing a posture check thing with the homies. I play a lot of ffxiv, and when I did some raiding, the group i was with would do an hour of raid, raid leader would tell us to go take a 5 minute break, and we usually came back with a renewed spirit of wanting to beat the raid. I should incorporate it more into other games too
I didn't have $1000 to spend on a chair and didn't wanna try out and return multiple chairs to find one that fit me. So I went with a very basic one that fit my dimensions (Ikea Matchspel) and strapped a $15 lumbar pillow from aliexpress to the back. After 2+ years with this setup, I never had any issues. Just added a small seat cushion at some point to even out the worn seat.
What great niche of information I was currently interested in. Use the same mouse. Love it! Just started my first custom keyboard and your content has been a bit of a home page for my rabbit hole.
Getting the desk and keyboard height right is the most important thing. From there, getting the monitors to the right height, and your armrests to the right height. From there, it's all specific tweaks to get that last maybe 20% which may or may not be needed.
I was a few weeks late so I don't know if you ever saw my comment on your last ergo keyboard video, but I was the guy who wrote something like 1400 words about how the lack of research misrepresented ergonomics and ergo keyboards. You have redeemed yourself with this video, thank you. Thank you for doing more research, and especially thank you for bringing on an expert and letting her directly share her analysis. She is correct that ergonomics are very personal, we all have different shaped bodies, and that an ergo keyboard isn't a magic bullet to fix your pain, only one method to encourage better posture. Movement breaks are also critical and often forgotten, so good to remind the homies to do a posture check. My only criticisms on this update are that the title and thumbnail are fairly clickbait-y. I know that's the youtube game but i feel like putting "JUST A SCAM?" in there is a little unkind to the experts who helped you. Their services seemed very in-depth and valuable even if it saves you one medical appointment/test. I am sure some comments included personal attacks which are not justified nor productive, as users of the internet we just need to sort through the junk to find the valuable information. Negative feedback is important to learn & improve, so I tried to keep my essay of a comment about the content rather than you. Acknowledging growth is equally important. Thank you for learning, and taking the time to do better with this video. [edited to remove unnecessary point] - - - And to answer @hurricane478 at 22:06, the layouts like Dvorak, Colemak, and the like are just about the most difficult thing to change for the least amount of benefit. Unless you want to do everything possible to minimize finger movement the effort is not worth it. In my experience, rewiring your muscle memory for every key takes weeks, and even after daily driving Hands Down for 2 years I'm still slower than my qwerty typing speed (I haven't lost any speed or muscle memory on qwerty though, so don't worry about that). As with all things ergonomics, your mileage may vary, all i have is my experience. I am the kind of person who enjoyed the challenge of learning it, but I would never recommend someone switch to a non-qwerty layout unless they want to.
This was pretty informative, my current setup is perhaps not quite as ergonomic as I thought in some areas and maybe overkill in others. I have carpal tunnel so what I've done is put a TV dinner tray to each side of myself. On one side is a one handed keyboard that I have placed on a wedge so it's leaning away from me. The other side I have a vertical mouse. Then I have padding I taped down for my elbows. This was an attempt to keep my wrists always in a nice comfortable position with little movement in them needed. It does make it inconvenient to get up since I'm so boxed in, but having my peripherals to my sides allows me to be able to lean back comfortably in my chair without reaching super far forward. It's been working for me for years and preventing my pain from getting worse but I'm always looking for ways to improve.
It's not something I've seen too many people do but I found what works well for me is working at a constant recline. That's hard to do when using a mouse/keyboard but I found that you just need a few things. A large ottoman footrest (~1.5 ft tall), a tilting high back chair with large armrests (e.g. executive style), a large wireless keyboard (g613) and a mouse with many macro keys. Your spine isn't meant to be at 90 degrees and the ottoman plus tilt mechanism lets you remain slightly reclined and control your angle easily. The armrests mean you can use them as a mousepad (at high sensitivity) so you don't need to lean forwards and the mouse macros reduce how often you need to use the keyboard (I recommend copy, paste, enter, next tab, prev tab). Lastly the large keyboard is big enough you can lean half of it on the desk and just slide it onto one armrest when needed. It may require some monitor adjustment as your angle to the table changes but switching to this basically eliminated a lot of wrist and neck pain.
Personal experience no bs : I used a normal cougar racer gaming chair i bought at 2019 till 2023 . First the chair was ok , then the leather started tearing off the headrest , ofc i could never use the lumbar pillow , it just pushed me off the chair , the armwrest pads broke in half so i had to buy a cover from amazon ,and then at the end of 2022 i started experiencing back pain , and booty pain alot too , i thought i was sitting wrong , keep in mind i never sat on anything else so i didnt realise that the seat itself was dying ,like the bottom sinked way too much i was pretty much sitting on the wood at the bottom , then i started noticing this pain continued even when i was sitting in public , on wooden chairs , on an airplane ,in a car .... I researched abit and bought herman miller embody gaming chair ,first i asked my parents to test it. They hates how it felt , i asked my friend to try it , they also hated it , then i proceeded to sit on it knowing damn well i m gonna refund , just to find myself falling in love with it ,after a single day of usage ,it got rid of my back n booty pain completely, i aint daying this so that everyone goesand buys it, it wont fit everyone , and the lack of a headrest may push some people away , but for me it is more comfortable this way , and it doesnt feel like sitting on a chair more like floating , and this is coming from a 100 kg man
1 like = 1 media online clip
first reply yippe
edit: and i posted this on my birthday
🔥 davinci resolve is so good fr 🔥
how do these mistakes go into the final upload?
@@MagmaBow working with a new editor on davinci resolve cloud, sometimes it just decides a clip that was showing up fine is gonna disappear 🫥 when rendering takes 1-2 hours it's kinda not worth it for one clip
@@HipyoTechCan you try to mod the corsair K63 (Btwi use it i modded it)
Thank you @HipyoTech for featuring Remy in this video and for dedicating the time to thoroughly review what a proper ergonomic assessment involves. It was a pleasure working with you!
Thanks for letting me film everything!
that was enlightening as f
Loved this video man. definitely one of the best touching this topic!
Loved seeing us OTs getting some light online, most People I met have never heard about us.
This is a great video, I got a split board now and adjusted several things so I'm no longer shrimping at my desk so bad.
Well, thanks for the in-depth style of video. Not just recommending new gadgets or reading from some 'papers'. You actually brought in someone who has no motive to sell you something. Appreciate that as a viewer.
so funny thing about "you gotta hit the homies with a posture check". When I worked in Player Support, we would always have one manager that would ping everyone and say "Shrimp Check!" and that was your chance to get up, or readjust if you need to. I loved it because it helped so much just as a general reminder.
Love "shrimp check," stealing it.
Games Done Quick twitch streams have a bot that does a "shrimp check" at a set period of time. It's very helpful!
@@greendblink182 I've seen that in chat... that's what that means! TIL
omfg I love "shrimp check" so much
haha i love that. sometimes me and my friends have some posture checks on discord. definitely using that
As an ergonomic consultant, I have some thoughts: 1. Overall she did a fantastic job of breaking down the reasons why ergonomics is important and how the body is supposed to be positioned. 2. I would say the only area I strongly disagree is on the topic of arm rests and wrist rests. Contact pressure can be a concern for people with nerve impingement (btw it should say impingement, not hingement as it's written in 8:07) but that is much less common than muscle tightness in the neck and shoulders from having to support the weight of the arms. If your arm rests are in good condition and they allow you to keep your elbows close to your body then it's a good idea to use them. Same with wrist rests - especially if you're using thicker keyboards (like most mechanical keyboards) they can keep your wrists in a more neutral position than if you have your wrists on the desk. If you float your wrists with no support, this can work, but again this can cause muscle fatigue so resting the wrists while typing is helpful for most people. 3. I would love to see a follow up on what your set up looks like post assessment. Great video.
Agreed. She was solid. Something I'll throw out there as a multi-decade Datahand user -- palm rests and wrist rests aren't the same thing. A keyboard that reduces movement and forces to the bare minimum, such that the hands themselves don't need to move *at all* in use, allows the palms to rest comfortably, mostly decoupling that support chain from the shoulders, so you can recline and relax the entire core to a much greater degree. It's a huge reduction in workload and can be highly beneficial for folks who suffer from tendonitis, carpal tunnel, and other connective tissue pathology.
As far as I know, there's no keyboard out there other than Datahand/Svalboard/Lalboard that actually achieves this, but folks using e.g. Glove80 with a subset of keys can get pretty close. The diagonal reaches to the center columns (T/Y/B/N) are the typical sources of ongoing injury in that configuration for susceptible populations.
I agree with both of you. In my experience muscular problems are more common than nerve problems. (Sry for easy language but I work in Germany and don't know how to describe it better 😅)
@@EvilRaakithank you for the easy language as I finally understood what was that all about :D
My elbows and wrists are "bendy" hypermobile (they easily overextend into positions bad for my joints and nerves). I feel like everyone knows about Carpal Tunnel Syndrome but I have Cubital Tunnel Syndrome aka Ulnar Nerve entrapment. The nerve running through my elbow to my hand gets compressed when I bend my elbows or put pressure on them. Which is so easy to do because of my hypermobility.
Luckily my non-dominant arm/hand is the bad one most of the time. But the advice I get to make it better is to not bend my arms which is very limiting 🤦🏻♀️ wearing arm braces to bed with my CPAP makes me feel so claustrophobic 😅
Hi I'd like to ask a question if anyone with more knowledge is able to help. She talked about how you want to be scooted in as much as possible (13:40), but don't arm rests limit this? Are chairs better without arm rests? Or if a chair doesn't have arm rests does that mean the keyboard should go back further? Arm rests make me feel so far away. I'm sure it depends on the person, but I was just curious.
I almost quit my last job after a complete lack of ergonomics gave me some incredible forearm tendonitis and carpal tunnel syndrome. The entire issue was fixed by raising the chair (at the expense of my short legs dangling a bit). I also found THE BEST STRETCH for carpal tunnel:
-Make a T-pose with palms facing up
-Extend fingers back (towards ground, to a comfortable extent)
-Moving just your elbows, make the shrug emoji ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Move between those positions several times -- you should feel a very nice stretch down to your fingertips. Nothing stopped the pins & needles in my fingertips like this stretch did.
Lets get a thread going?
The best one I've been taught for my neck/upper back pain is:
- Lift your right arm towards to the roof
- Look left
- While looking left, reach up as much as feels comfortable. Keep your back straight, don't lean away as you reach.
- Lower the right arm, lift your left arm and look towards the right, reach up
- Keep alternating arms and looking the other way for a couple dozen times, and do this a couple times a day
Works absolutely great for me. Can be seated or standing.
Then you had a desk that was too high, not a chair that was too low...
@@gucky4717 Can you think of a reason why I didn't just lower the desk instead of raising my chair? 🤔
@@Biscotti. You had no saw? :D
@@AleksiJoensuu a good ulnar nerve stretch is making finger glasses with index and thumb, but turn your hands upside down so your palms are on your face.
"I wonder why I have pain"
proceeds to sit contorted for hours on end with the back support all the way back like a 16 year old bmw driver
the bit about communicating your movement breaks with game buddies is so based. Really feels like she’s taking the reality of how people use their setups into account
I'm a larger person, so I'm one of those people who have to rotate my hands inward to accommodate my frame using a standard keyboard. I also have a shoulder injury which permanently damaged my labrum, so my right arm (I'm right-handed) lights up like a Christmas tree when I'm not keeping it in a neutral position. The split keyboard is the only thing that helps with this. It was a definite learning curve, especially learning the navigation of layers, but the Keebio Iris has been pivotal in almost eliminating the pain I feel when typing. I highly recommend it for people in a similar position where standard keyboards require an inward rotation.
Yes you have to keep your arms and wrists straight....or type with only one hand. Are you also using an ergonomic mouse with the buttons on the side? The Logitech MX Vertical for example.
For typing like work or commenting here a split keyboard is the best. For gaming a smaller keyboard is enough, since you usually keep your other hand on the mouse.
@@gucky4717 I have used a vertical mouse in the past when I was doing work which required more point and click (Salesforce). Now that I'm mostly coding in Javascript/Typescript/Vue.js, I generally do not use my mouse that often during the day. My mouse generally comes into play when I'm gaming, so I have a logitech G600. I also have a layer of my keyboard devoted to gaming, so my left split and my mouse covers everything I need to do with modifier keys.
Split keyboard was a major win for me. I am experimenting with the kinesis 360 now. The thumb cluster are also a win for me since a lot of my pain was from how much I use control and shift. The tenting also seems to be helping because it allows me to change the position/ angels of my arms/wrists. It is personal and does depend on what your specific issue is but I’m optimistic this might help.
Man i dont like ragging on people but how you so big you cant use a keyboard💀
Spends 50$ on a chair, spends 500$ on a keyboard just like any good keyboard hobbyist should 😂
Look for his headphones.
There's such thing as a keyboard hobbyist? Jesus...
@@I_am_Jesus_though somehow you haven't checked out this guy's entire TH-cam page
@@I_am_Jesus_though You apparently completely missed this entire YT Channel you are watching a Video on.
I think getting a motorized standing desk and a $20 folding chair is enough. The problem is trying to minimize the damage of sitting with expensive chairs instead of minimizing sitting. Just make sure the desk goes low enough to sit comfortably.
He’s based DaVinci Resolve user! A one time $300 purchase with lifetime ownership vs the cringe $30 monthly Adobe rent payment.
purchase? isn't resolve free?
@@charliesretrocomputing its free if you don’t want any of the features.
@@charliesretrocomputingFor personal use it is
@@charliesretrocomputing no, there is a free version, which lacks 10 bit support, some effects lacking, multi gpu support and some other things. is cool and all but if you serious about it you gonna need studio(paid) version
@@charliesretrocomputing You can buy the Studio version which has a few more features (some ML based features & more GPU acceleration), but the free version has basically everything you need to edit
Im 27 and have a bad back and arthritis in my left knee. For about a year now ive been gaming on the couch streaming my pc to my phone with a gamesir g8. Its been great. I could not game at my desk for over an hour. So streaming has been saving my ass.
I do something similar for similar reasons, I use Parsec, the paid version ($10 a month) gives you access to a different codec for streaming games (H.265) and its buttery smooth for gaming. And another bonus is that the original codec (H.264) is a lot better for office work. I used it for school and coding to access my desktop for running really heavy coding projects off of it remotely.
A bit similar, but I sit at a desk at work all day, (but I'm a computer nerd) so when I'm at home - most of the time I sit in my recliner and have a monitor on a stand that can swing into my view. My recliner arms are rectangular shaped so I can put a mouse on the arm, etc. I don't do heavy typing, but can put a small keyboard on a pillow on my lap. I can watch videos comfortably, basic pc stuff, play games, etc. and I like it.
Alot of the time a couch is worse for slouching
@@TheRogueAdventurers im pretty sure slouching isn't that bad, sitting straight in a chair does more damage.
The current meta on posture is 'next posture is best posture '. So what you need to do is every thirty or forty minutes, to change to another posture, better to move around.
Ohh so happy that you featured the Dygma Defy on your video at 17:45! We'd love to hear your thoughts on it if you give ergo keyboards a second try 😊
dygma balls
Oh yeah, i had severe hand/finger pain some years ago. People would say things like 'carpal tunnel' and 'inflammation'. In truth, it was mostly pinched nerves up at my shoulder and i just needed to stretch.
Likely the culprit for your pinched nerve is actually up in the neck rather than in the shoulder. Bad posture at your desk / lack of good ergonomics can absolutely be a cause for that. Speaking as someone who has had years of issues with pinched nerves in the neck due to time spent at the desk.
@@Lazlo-os1pu I have headaches for example. Those came from the neck and were caused by a bad pillow/matress, although I have slept many years like that...
So the desk is not the only problem.
We aren't getting younger :D
This video actually helped a ton! Especially the tip about bringing the keyboard in closer, I don't even need the wrist rest anymore. And I finally got my chair in the right position.
At my work, we have an ergonomics expert on staff solely for this (we have like 7,000 employees) and he LOVES it; its so fun to have an appointment with him and you learn so much
I am so glad you made this video! There really is a lot to ergonomics. She was so informative and lovely!
So for me, the biggest change to reduce elbow pain was to get a keyboard with tenting. I now have a motorized desk, and a proper chair too so im sitting in a proper height, which helps too. I cant use a regular keyboard for more than 30 minutes without pain bc of pronation. My elbows start complaining immediately. I use the dygma raise keyboard, and am eagerly awaiting the V2 in october. That said, i will be trying out some of the tips outlined in the video, like having the keyboard closer to my body, and raising the desk a bit. also to avoid resting my elbows on the arm rests! good stuff!
The desk surface shouldn't be higher than your elbows though
I love this.
What resonates with me most is the body posture and the desk/chair height. When using an adjustable chair, I tend to adjust the height a lot to try to find that comfortable, neutral position.
I own one (1) mechanical keyboard and I'm not really looking for one more, but I do love this channel. There's an S-tier combination of your clear expertise and passion for keyboards in some videos and really helpful and approachable videos about living life like this one.
You're so real for this one. I'm glad you're pointing the spotlight of such important issues that are often overlooked
this was fantastic! I was recently diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, aka the stretchy skin and joints that pop out of their sockets syndrome. I feel like I got some good advice about what little things to tweak to find a more comfortable position in which to work and also have decent posture. I feel like having it come from a channel about keyboards that I'm already invested in helped me digest it and understand it better.
this was super interesting, thanks for putting this together. Always fun to listen to a professional talk about stuff like this. Definitely got me thinking about my own setup
i'm going to graduate school rn for occupational therapy and this video makes me happy. thanks for shouting out my profession that people often don't know much about
8:05 My darling, she says "impingement", not "hingement".
Also worst/worse is killing me right now xD
Thank you fellow Briton, I did make it to the end!
Judging by everything you covered here, that $309 was a friggin' BARGAIN. About as much as a good bike fit, and thinking about it, it's kinda the same job, just a different application. Big thanks to Raimi (what, like Sam?) and of course, your bad self for this one.
Screenshotting this for my editor hahaha
@@HipyoTech I also immediately clocked it was "impingement". Very common term when talking about ergonomics and RSIs, it's when something is intruding on the space of something else like when inflammation in the carpal tunnel impinges on the nerve that runs through there.
We also need to talk about the spelling of “environment” at 24:19 😂
Gosh the worse/worst mistakes are just horrendous
26:59 who is the holy heck was that
I use a Herman Miller Embody chair but yet i sit with my legs crossed. I think im cooked
TELL ME YOUR SECRETS!
@@HipyoTechThis chair actually allows you to do this, the HM Aeron doesn't, for example. So, I just change the position of armrests so that my knees aren't touching them, and that's it!
I love my Aeron. Wish I bought it years ago.
My work has the Aeron but they only have size B and because I’m so short it cuts into the back of my knees (seat pan is too deep) and no fun. Currently using a steelcase gesture at home and I frequently sit cross-legged but after a while (and sometimes with a 20+lb cat on the lap) it hurts my knees and hips.
@@HipyoTechdon’t be so tall
I have pretty bad carpel and cubital tunnel due to my day job and that is what started me going down the ergo rabbit hole. When I talk to people asking questions about it and looking to reduce their pain, I always tell them that there is no one answer and that it's an adjustment and tweaking of variables. I am so glad that you took the time and money to make this video. It drives that point home and hopefully will help some people looking to improve their setups. I am a keyboard tray person rocking the Cheapino V2 keyboard, which is a super affordable board so it's really not as inaccessible as some might think to get a good ergo board setup that works for them.
Man am I grateful I started my career at an ergonomic furniture manufacturer. Not only did we use their chairs, desks, etc. but part of new hire orientation went over the best way to use them. They also had ergonomic specialists who would give us reports (less worker comp cases and maybe cheaper insurance?) which was super helpful. When lots of jobs became remote or hybrid, I tried a few chairs before giving up and calling a former coworker to get one of theirs.
Honestly loved this video. So much about online or "gamer" culture is about what is cool or hardcore or whatever, so it's genuinely nice seeing someone talking about healthy habits and avoiding pain.
Yep, made it all the way to the end. One thing that is more old school but very helpful is an adjustable keyboard tray. She mentioned it. Adjustable keyboard trays allow you to have the keyboard and mouse almost directly over your lap and even allow slightly negative angle to allow for chunky keyboards to be flat essentially when you are typing. Way back in the early 2000s I was typing up high and injured my wrists and had tennis elbow. Getting a keyboard tray helped eliminate most of that because it brought it down to that comfortable zone right in front of you in your lap. I'm on team ergo and love my Kinesis keyboards. That being said, just having a keyboard that can be split and moved apart by a few inches probably produces most of the beneficial effects of a Kinesis keyboard if it's at the right height. Good video.
"these keys feel really hard to press" The dusty Gateron Clear linears in the bottom of my cupboard screaming victoriously
I feel attacked with my Nixies.
Made it all of the way to the end! Also, I like the longer format video...the pacing was great and the edits were just as great!
What a massive eye opener, great info in this vid. Thanks Hipyo and Ramie :)
I made it all the way to the end, Mr. Editor :)
As an older person that has worked with computers most of my life I would like to highlight a few things: Most desks are too high but you can fix it for very cheap: just raising your chair and getting a foot rest can make a world of difference. Also, office chairs are cheaper and better than gaming chairs almost always. Avoid racing chairs that push your shoulders, they're designed to help you hold the wheel under G forces, not to use a keyboard and a mouse. Adjust your lumbar support correctly so that you don't slouch, it can feel weird for a few weeks but you'll get used to it and feel better in the long term. And most important of all, take as many rests as you can, get up and stretch your hamstrings. Hamstrings are very strong, they shorten when you sit and hurt your back when you get up, so stretch those suckers a lot.
This actually really helped me! I've always had pain related to my wrist and adjusting the height and position of my chair fixed it insantly!
Very helpful video , I'm gonna take advantage of this kind of Eval at work , since they offer it. Keep up the great work!
9:59 wth is that one chair 😭😭😭
13:50 I used to play a lot of Counter-Strike when I was a teenager and I had my keyboard and mice way too deep in the desk and I eventually started getting horrible wrist pain, I eventually started positioning my peripherals near the edge and while my aim sucked at the beginning (and it never got as good as it was before) the pain went away and many years later I still find it to be the most natural
I appreciated the reminder that it's not a 'one size fits all' proposition and, apart from the basic advice, it takes a bit of trial and error to find comfortable solutions. And, yes, I did watch to the end.
10:18 holy hell I've not once felt like this thing had a point until I put it were she pointed out.
In more stressful gaming situations I've been having issues with my hands getting almost asleep and really cramped, it requires a good 10min of mildly painful rest to get back in action.
Partially thanks to this video I reflected back on it and I think I figured it out, my arm is pushing against the edge of the desk because my keyboard is too far back.
When I don't need high inputs per second it's fine, the blood flow is limited but it's not causing pain, but when you start needing high reactivity and really straining the hand, the blood flow just isn't keeping up anymore and it gets sore really fast.
I moved it forward, adjusted my arm so as to actually use the arm rest, and ordered a nice soft wrist rest since contact pressure seems to be my biggest problem.
Stress, and frequent stress, is known to be a musculoskeletal pain factor.
Cortisol and adrenaline have an effect on your muscle, your nervous system and your ability to rest up and regenerate muscular cells.
I would recommend to alternate games, find some way to cool down, or just to git gud
@@docthorr Who would have thunk that finishing an armored core 6 boss by fist-fighting them after running out of ammo might be stress-inducing ?
As I've mentioned it really feels like my hands are falling asleep like when you're not sitting correctly and your leg doesn't have enough blood flow and becomes painful to move and barely responds to you.
stress probably is a factor here, but would you say it could be a main factor ? or could it "just" be making the blood flow problem worse ?
@@ledocteur7701 I don't know you enough to state that's the main factor ;) But it has an effect to consider
I think you pinpointed your problem. Also, I'm french and an ergonomic expert. If I trust your pseudo you're a French speaker. Are you around ?
@@docthorr thanks for the offer but I'm not interested. If it becomes a more recurring problem I already know people who can help.
Thanks for the info though.
Then there is me with my split upside down keyboard strapped to the underside of my gaming chair 🤣
i made it very simple. whats the one chair i dont have issues with? a couch. whats the 1 person equilavent? a stressless recliner. removed the legs and installed officechar wheels. lowered my desk and LEANED BACK, sliding my contraption UNDER the desk so my arms are fully resting on the desk. the way they would if you had a desk hovering over your couch, that thing you keep imagining when youre sitting at a couch. yeah. to hell with hermeme memeller chairs, 12 years into this endavour never looked back.
Get a simple back and seat padded chair with no arm supports. Make sure that in your relaxed posture your arms are flush with the table and mouse, have your back supported by the backrest and feet properly planted. There you go, no carpel tunnel, no elbow pain, no wrist pain and no back pain. The rest is nonsense, your body will automatically adopt the most comfortable position for itself whether you like it or not.
Hipyo is truly doing everything we didnt know we needed him to do for us. Hes a freaking legend lol
This was vary helpful and all so well edited. Like I am a editor and I love how there was a lot of cuts and spice at the beginning " maybe a bit to much .. idk I play with that to" But then it started to slow down and really educated me. Now I am siting different. Hope I can make it last. Grate stuff. Probably be sharing this one with a few people.
Really insightful video! Took away a few really solid tips that would be helpful for improving my own workspace. Thanks, Hipyo!
((Also noticed a few hate comments already, please ignore them they're cringe))
As an Occupational therapist myself, not ergonomics expert, this entire video was like a free workshop and like someone just have me a candy.
Changing to a vertical mouse was a big game changer for me. It took a bit to get used to it, though. I would have loved to hear more about mice types and trackballs.
Cool Video Hipyo!
Picking up my nicotine and caffeine addictions has been the most ergonomic decision I've ever made. A smoke break every 30 minutes, a break to make coffee twice a day. Getting up and walking a few meters has done wonders for my lower back pain. Better for my eye strain too
I hate that I can relate to this
0:12 fire your editor and hire me
I was suffering greatly on my lower back and elbows, finally got a good chair and it CHANGED My life. Probably a better buy than every PC component I have.
Student in human factors engineering here! Some variation helps a lot. No posture, no matter how optimal, can be used long term, I mean like hours. The same with devices that you use. Remember to take some breaks as well.
Great comment. Even the best positions will eventually hurt if you only use those positions.
Or use them too frequently without mixing in other 'good' positions.
I learned that wrist and elbow pain from gaming can be caused from a strained rotator cuff. I started doing tissue work and strengthening exercises for my small rotator cuff muscles as well as shoulder delt workouts. I haven’t had elbow or wrist pain from gaming in over a year since I started.
I got these $20 slide on like "sock" arm cushions (plush cushiony material not actually like socks) that go on my chair's arms. Absolutely amazing and solved my wrist pain completely, so insanely soft. Seriously try out something like those if you are interested. The brand I got was called Aloudy but I am sure there are better brands out there too
This was a great video. The idea of maximizing neutral position was obvious but I didn't think it was really important until now.
The standing desk thing is so real. I spent a lot of time looking for one that could go low enough for me, and I'm not sure if the company that made it even exists anymore lol
I solved this problem by putting my chair higher and then also putting risers under the desk for my feet. Essentially, I couldn't make the desk lower so I made the floor higher.
This is actually a fantastic video. I learned so much about ergonomics and how to do extended work sessions. Thank you sir Hipyo and madam ergo consultant
Two things that helped me the most when I started having constant golf/tennis elbow pains, back pains and some wrist pains, were an ergo keeb (Keychron v10 in my case) and a table extension, so I can get my whole forearm on it. It's so nice. You know the ones with like a hole for your belly. Adjustable height desk was a good one too. I used to sit on my foot too, but let that go. I probably can't even bend my feet like that at my age any more :D
I really want a Herman Miller Aeron, but haven't splurged yet (used/refurbs are pretty affordable, 500-600€). My employer paid for an IKEA Styrspel mesh chair, which has been really nice, kind of an Aeron LITE.
After 30, you start caring about ergonomics a whole lot more when you start making noises getting up etc. :D
this made me realize ive had my arm rests a tad too high. I personally think the Aeron trumps the Embody, and I've been using mine for about 3 years now, really loving the change. Great video!
Ergonomics and desk posture I’m constantly trying to improve, have RA so back, hip, shoulders, hands, wrists all take a beating. Work 8hrs a day at my wfh office, 2 days in the company office, it’s so difficult, thrown so much so much money away trying to find solutions, I really worry about my long term posture health. Love to draw and that’s when I’m my worst, I get so focused learn in, completely forget everything and end up in pain. Great topic Hipyo, may not be cool, but important to us all at some point. Seeking independent advice sounds a smart move. Had 3 work ones, which are so quick and just a check box exercise. Thanks makes me think I need to seek advice 👍
I have tried a lily58 and I absolutely love them. The only gripe is that because it's hand soldered and all that, it end up having some build issues.
To me tenting kit is a game changer, having the board on flat surface just twist my hands too much. I ended up having like a 30-50 degree tent and those feel very comfy to put my hands.
This was one of the best things ive watched in a long time... Thanks for that.
this video is awesome!
finally someone who knows what she is talking about. real tips. no guru talking one solution fits all.
thanks for doing this
A large keyboard and mouse tray is so helpful. It’s crazy how so many desks are too tall to even start thinking of ergonomics.
Hear me out.
Lower the arm rests as much as you could and bring the chair to the table as well.
In this setup you might need to place the keyboard and mouse away from you.
With this you should be sitting in 90 degrees angle but your arms are required to be on table because we're very close.
I'm sitting like what they show us, 90 degrees everything, but I'm very close to my table so I'm using it to take the weight from my shoulders to my forearm, forearm is resting on the table all the time and wrist doesn't bend so much, I can use my elbow to make big movements and correct it with my wrist if I'm aiming in a shooter game.
As I'm identifying my health problems I learned that most of them are because stiff shortened muscles.
If you keep certain muscles in shortened state that makes their range shorter.
My pectoral and latissimus are pulling shoulder forward creating pain in shoulder blades and carpal nerve impingement (straight arm holding mouse).
Palm muscles (thumb and opposing side under pinky) press on nerves because of mouse gripping.
Right leg groin pain because of mostly crossing legs over knees.
Now I have to go through literal torture to stretch muscles + train opposing muscles to pull them back.
Best solution is 40% split : split for the shoulder and wrists rotation/position, and 40% for reducing fingers movement. With only 3 layers + one numbad layer, you can literally have the equivalent of a full size keyboard and more (basically 40 keys x 4 = 160 keys...). I only ever use a non-split keyboard for gaming, and do all the typing and coding on a split keyboard with silent Gazzew Bobagum switches (they don't have the hard knock at the bottom) which wildly reduce the crazy joint pain I get in fingers after an intense day of typing.
As a young guy it didn't matter what I sat upon. I literally used the cheapest Ikea desk chairs and it was fine. Until I developped lasting back pain in my early 30s. In 2016 I got my first gaming chair and sitting on them fixed it completely. But since those usually only last between 1 1/2 to 3 years before the PU leather starts breaking up everywhere I made the mistake of getting an expensive ergonomic chair by Interstuhl. Long story short it hurt both my back and my upper legs so badly to sit on that thing after a while, I went back to gaming chairs after a few months and everything disappeared again. Only difference I chose cloth this time so when it starts getting holes they won't be pointy anymore. I guess the perfect chair design for yourself is as individual as the human body.
One thing that has been absolutely incredible for me, is a vertical mouse. I have tried a bunch of them, and landed on the Logitech MX Vertical. I do wish they made a gaming mouse that was vertical and had the buttons on the side for say an MMORPG. But we haven't gotten there yet it seems. This one change has really helped me with wrist fatigue where after 3-4 hours of working, or gaming I couldn't deal with the pain. With the vertical mouse that pain is pretty much gone. I can go a full 8 hours of work (with a few breaks of course) without pain.
You could hack up an MMO mouse into a 3d printed vertical shell or swap the internals from one over into a cheaper vertical mouse. It would be kind of a kludge but worthwhile to prove the concept
I also noticed standing desks don't go low enough for some super strange reason. Which is when I stopped looking at them and started my focus on adjustable coffee tables instead. Some of them even look like an executive desk!
this was a good video idea to branch out. It was really informative and related closely enough to the content I would normally come here for.
Thanks for the video! And hello editor 🏴
I've been using a Steelcase Gesture for over 8 years and it's like new and still so adjustable it fits me like a glove. Initially I thought there wasn't enough padding on the arm rests, but... turns out that just helped me break the habit of leaning on them.
Great video, I have been looking into some ergonomic gadgets for a while now, but the context she provided was exactly what I was missing!
Been having recent pain so this comes at an excellent time! Going to try a split/tented board, raise my chair a bit, and move everything to the edge of the desk/scootch the chair up more. We’ll see where that gets me.
As a PC gamer, Cashier and Guitarist.
* Monitor raised so the top 70% is in eyesight, chair leaned back 15degress to lessen strain on your lower back - hands should never go up or down for extended time.
* Arm and wristrest isnt neccary for doing stuff and then resting - but to support your body. If you use them and dont feel like its going up or down from natural position - they're doing their job.
* I got my armrest and wrist rest pretty much alinged for the keyboard to lower stress on shoulder - and im moving around alot so there is no stagnation.
Like going to the gym to work out, or sitting to eat something you dont make this activities for long hours. You need to take your time, when you start feeling pain stop the clock. This is when you start stretching, change activities or just walk a little bit. So use this time as a reference for avoid the pain. For example I can type or play games for 2 hours, then I need to stretch or go to refuel water, no more pain. Also every chair is different for every person, but the point is to NOT THINK at all about the chair, not to be confortable like a bed, that's why the Embody is so good, not confortable but you forget about it.
Made it all the way to the end. Thank you for thinking to make a video like this, AND making it. It was very informative.
Some great tips there. I particularly like the one about putting mouse and keyboard right on the edge of the desk. That works particularly well with a trackball (which doesn't move around).
I think most of us are better off without armrests. Zero "contact stress" for me, please. When I got my first office job all the chairs had fixed arms bolted on. Once I got myself in the 90-degree elbow and knee position, the arms would always get in the way of my elbows, forcing me to hunch my shoulders. It was a recipe for disaster while touch typing and I developed some RSI in my early '20s.
So I used to take a screwdriver to work, and remove the arms.
Nearly 30 years later I'm still using chairs without arm rests, and I'm still RSI free. 🤞
Bad chair's back and chairs in general are such a bane.
For some reason most office and 'gaming' chairs I've seen are made in a way, that you slide down out of it, and chars back is impossible to fix at some specific position, it's either fixed in some default one or in a moving state with not enough support, especially for lower back.
I have the same exact chair you do. I frequently find the arm rests not being movable and having such a short vertical adjustment range makes it hard to both bring the chair close enough to the desk and to keep the arm rests out of the way when actively typing or mousing. But the lumbar support is *perfect* for me.
Also, to anyone considering a corner desk: DON'T DO IT. Corner desks are REALLY BAD for your ulnar nerves.
excellent video. just one little note: that is not the dygma Raise 2, that is the Dygma Defy, It is a good keyboard but is too expensive, the main benefit for me is the integrated tenting that it has, different angles so you can choose what is most comfortable
15:46 Thank you!! As a very short person, finding a desk that goes low enough is so frustrating. I did research to figure out what height I need. I'm moving soon and I'm going to get a 3 stage desk so it goes low enough. I don't understand why so many desks are so high. As you say, you're pretty tall, so the fact that your desk doesn't go low enough is kinda crazy. You can raise the chair instead, but then your feet would be dangling. I currently can't raise my chair higher because there is a drawer under the middle of the desk so my knees won't fit under it. My desk just isn't comfortable and I hate using it. I'm looking forward to getting a nice set up in my new place, but I was worried I'd spend more than I need for stuff. This video helps me feel more justified, thank you. Also I never thought about moving the keyboard closer. I have a laptop only now and no separate keyboard, but I'm planning to get one and now I know where I should place it. Thanks again!
Under desk foot rests are things that exist too, so keep those in mind if you run in to more desk trouble.
This was so informative, I appreciate you shareing the assessemnt with us. I recently purchase an Ajazz AKS068 Pro 68 trying to find a keyboard that would relieve some hand fatigue and soreness. But after watching this video I see there is more to it than just the keyboard I'm using.
@hipyotech thank you so much for this video, I’ve been dealing with shoulder pain for quite some time just thinking it was from picking up my boys all these years when it occurred to me that I haven’t done that in SO long that I shouldn’t still have that pain anymore.
Since that thought, I’ve been on the road to better ergonomics because at this stage in my life, I don’t want to have to get into a new career. (UNIX Engineer by day.)
I picked up a new ZSA Voyager Split Ergonomic keyboard to see if that helps and next on the list is a better chair since the old hand-me-down chair from my previous employer isn’t doing me any favors. Can’t even come close to being able to afford a Hermon Miller, so we’ll see what that brings.
Thanks again, because now I have more things to look out for.
Couple comments about 40% keyboards. You don't actually need to buy a tiny keyboard to use a 40% layout. I still have a standard number row, but when I press the layer switch with my thumb I also get numbers at the QWERTY row and functions keys at the number row. Biggest benefit a proper 40% keyboard provides are extra thumb keys for layer switching in more convenient positions.
To help learning to use a 40% layout you can switch your keycaps to show the 2nd layer keys. Of course this only works if you use a cap style where every row has identical profile, like DSA, XDA or NP. I can remember perfectly fine where the letters are, I don't need the keyboard to spell out QWERTY (or PHRKW with my custom layout), but it is very helpful that the home row caps show "< > { } ← → ( ) [ ]" or where the less used special characters are on the bottom row.
I love doing a posture check thing with the homies. I play a lot of ffxiv, and when I did some raiding, the group i was with would do an hour of raid, raid leader would tell us to go take a 5 minute break, and we usually came back with a renewed spirit of wanting to beat the raid. I should incorporate it more into other games too
I didn't have $1000 to spend on a chair and didn't wanna try out and return multiple chairs to find one that fit me. So I went with a very basic one that fit my dimensions (Ikea Matchspel) and strapped a $15 lumbar pillow from aliexpress to the back.
After 2+ years with this setup, I never had any issues. Just added a small seat cushion at some point to even out the worn seat.
What great niche of information I was currently interested in. Use the same mouse. Love it! Just started my first custom keyboard and your content has been a bit of a home page for my rabbit hole.
Getting the desk and keyboard height right is the most important thing. From there, getting the monitors to the right height, and your armrests to the right height. From there, it's all specific tweaks to get that last maybe 20% which may or may not be needed.
I was a few weeks late so I don't know if you ever saw my comment on your last ergo keyboard video, but I was the guy who wrote something like 1400 words about how the lack of research misrepresented ergonomics and ergo keyboards. You have redeemed yourself with this video, thank you.
Thank you for doing more research, and especially thank you for bringing on an expert and letting her directly share her analysis. She is correct that ergonomics are very personal, we all have different shaped bodies, and that an ergo keyboard isn't a magic bullet to fix your pain, only one method to encourage better posture. Movement breaks are also critical and often forgotten, so good to remind the homies to do a posture check.
My only criticisms on this update are that the title and thumbnail are fairly clickbait-y. I know that's the youtube game but i feel like putting "JUST A SCAM?" in there is a little unkind to the experts who helped you. Their services seemed very in-depth and valuable even if it saves you one medical appointment/test.
I am sure some comments included personal attacks which are not justified nor productive, as users of the internet we just need to sort through the junk to find the valuable information. Negative feedback is important to learn & improve, so I tried to keep my essay of a comment about the content rather than you. Acknowledging growth is equally important. Thank you for learning, and taking the time to do better with this video.
[edited to remove unnecessary point]
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And to answer @hurricane478 at 22:06, the layouts like Dvorak, Colemak, and the like are just about the most difficult thing to change for the least amount of benefit. Unless you want to do everything possible to minimize finger movement the effort is not worth it. In my experience, rewiring your muscle memory for every key takes weeks, and even after daily driving Hands Down for 2 years I'm still slower than my qwerty typing speed (I haven't lost any speed or muscle memory on qwerty though, so don't worry about that). As with all things ergonomics, your mileage may vary, all i have is my experience. I am the kind of person who enjoyed the challenge of learning it, but I would never recommend someone switch to a non-qwerty layout unless they want to.
16:47, a keyboard tray. Just what I need for my super tall desk
This was pretty informative, my current setup is perhaps not quite as ergonomic as I thought in some areas and maybe overkill in others. I have carpal tunnel so what I've done is put a TV dinner tray to each side of myself. On one side is a one handed keyboard that I have placed on a wedge so it's leaning away from me. The other side I have a vertical mouse. Then I have padding I taped down for my elbows. This was an attempt to keep my wrists always in a nice comfortable position with little movement in them needed. It does make it inconvenient to get up since I'm so boxed in, but having my peripherals to my sides allows me to be able to lean back comfortably in my chair without reaching super far forward. It's been working for me for years and preventing my pain from getting worse but I'm always looking for ways to improve.
It's not something I've seen too many people do but I found what works well for me is working at a constant recline.
That's hard to do when using a mouse/keyboard but I found that you just need a few things. A large ottoman footrest (~1.5 ft tall), a tilting high back chair with large armrests (e.g. executive style), a large wireless keyboard (g613) and a mouse with many macro keys. Your spine isn't meant to be at 90 degrees and the ottoman plus tilt mechanism lets you remain slightly reclined and control your angle easily. The armrests mean you can use them as a mousepad (at high sensitivity) so you don't need to lean forwards and the mouse macros reduce how often you need to use the keyboard (I recommend copy, paste, enter, next tab, prev tab). Lastly the large keyboard is big enough you can lean half of it on the desk and just slide it onto one armrest when needed.
It may require some monitor adjustment as your angle to the table changes but switching to this basically eliminated a lot of wrist and neck pain.
Personal experience no bs :
I used a normal cougar racer gaming chair i bought at 2019 till 2023 .
First the chair was ok , then the leather started tearing off the headrest , ofc i could never use the lumbar pillow , it just pushed me off the chair , the armwrest pads broke in half so i had to buy a cover from amazon ,and then at the end of 2022 i started experiencing back pain , and booty pain alot too , i thought i was sitting wrong , keep in mind i never sat on anything else so i didnt realise that the seat itself was dying ,like the bottom sinked way too much i was pretty much sitting on the wood at the bottom , then i started noticing this pain continued even when i was sitting in public , on wooden chairs , on an airplane ,in a car ....
I researched abit and bought herman miller embody gaming chair ,first i asked my parents to test it. They hates how it felt , i asked my friend to try it , they also hated it , then i proceeded to sit on it knowing damn well i m gonna refund , just to find myself falling in love with it ,after a single day of usage ,it got rid of my back n booty pain completely, i aint daying this so that everyone goesand buys it, it wont fit everyone , and the lack of a headrest may push some people away , but for me it is more comfortable this way , and it doesnt feel like sitting on a chair more like floating , and this is coming from a 100 kg man
I went no-armrest years ago. The ability to hang your arms at your sides and stare at the ceiling virtually unimpeded makes it solid recommend.