I'm 45. I grew up riding 2 strokes and own a 300 ktm. Modern 4's have become very capable, but nothing will replace the sound, smell and excitement of riding something that will try and kill you if you get sloppy. 4 strokes are civil, 2 strokes are wild, especially older ones that were all about the big hit. You have to ride them flat out and hang on. They are hard work but the smile is much bigger.
I’m 22 and I couldn’t agree more with the wildness of the 2 stroke, however I only call it wild cause everyone else does, that’s all I’ve ever ridden besides a 250 Honda 3 wheeler
Absolutely well put. MYCH more fun. I think a lot of 4 strikers are scared of them or lack the skill to tame them. They are lazy and that is the wrong reason to pick a bike.
I'm same age and grew up on two strokes starting on the 80cc and worked up to 250 before I moved over to 450 4 banger but recently gone back to 300cc two stroke KTM Enduro and love the new even torque power theyved got. Still has a little bark but nothing like the old mx ones
I raced the 250 two stroke against 250 four strokes here in Canada just at the local level. From my perspective I think they should always allow a straight 250 class. The results won't change because the best racer is going to win whether they're on a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke. It just brings that fun factor back to the sport. And that's what the sport is all about.
@corn pop how a bike makes power and puts it to the ground is more important than raw HP...when the track is prime first practice the 250 smoker may have an advantage, when it's rough, baked, or deep then the 250F will have an advantage. The 250F just hooks up so much better off the start and when the track is baked late in the first and all of the second moto. This is especially true in supercross ... so they should both be allowed in tve same class, it can make privateers more competitive for cheaper and allow more guys to try and qualify for nationals and supercross. But against factory bikes, the 250F is going to be better all around.
@@cfvgd no. It's not in late 90's early 2000s when the modern 4t appeared on the track and at the dealers. A 250 2t was comparable to a 450. The 450 only had a few hp on them. The torque numbers even today are only a few numbers off. A modern 450 only puts down about 3 more ft pnds than the essentialy 20 year old yz250 2t motor. It's traction. Usuable power than has always made the modern 4t shine. Not shear hp. The modern 250 4t is actually right on par with the 2t in the hp department. Mid 40's. But the 4t gives up about 10ftpnd of torque to the 2t. But once again usuable power is king. 2 stroke delivers essentially all its hp and torque at the same time. 4t has a very flat broad power curve. It's all in the delivery. Everybody Just assumes because of the but dyno the traction they feel with a 4t is torque. Reality the 2t destroys the 4t worse than hp in this department even given a 20+ technology advantage. Power numbers per cc 2 stroke all day everyday. Usuable power.. 4t no contest
Yeah. The 250 fours should be allowed bore kits over 250cc. It's not a true 250vs250 but we all know how that would go. That would be the way i would have it set up.
@@samm9174 What do you mean how that would go? Dude a 250 smoker and a 250 four stroke are almost comparable in terms of power now, and the 4 stroke will still throw a faster lap time.
@@Jacksonflax 250 2 stroke have more power and less weight than a 4 stroke. Guy in the video even said the 4 stroke wasn't able to clear the jumps as clean because of the noticeable decrease in power....
@@samm9174My guy we're talking about pro racing here... Some teams are claiming numbers deep in the 50s on their factory 250s. You literally can't get a 250 smoker to match that at peak, Let alone what the rest of the curve would look like.
I have a 4 stroke and a 2 stroke, there about even on top end but the 2 stroke is definitely more fun and scarier when your in the power band. Comfort and confidence goes to the 4 stroke
Ridden 250 2 strokes most of my life from age 18 to late 40's. Got a 250 four stroke cause I was bored. That bike handles amazing and has allowed me to increase my skill level as it is so forgiving and fun to ride. However I started to lack some excitement in my riding so I had to park another 250 smoker next to the four stroke in the garage. The wife doesn't understand but I tell her my truck won't fit in the garage next to her car so I needed something to fill in the space.
A great video guys. I’m 50, & in the 80s we all used to watch all 2 strokes race. There was nothing better then standing at the start line, & sniffing in all the 2 stroke exhaust fumes, & listening to there sound.
I Agree 100% 250cc 2 or 4 stroke together, the 4 strokes made the sport a (elite shit). The Brazilian nationals this year the 2 strokes could race against the 4 strokes, the rider Lucas Dunka won 5 of 6 heats on a yz 250, people are talking shit, but the same rider won the title before, when he was factory Honda (crf250). Without a 2 stroke that rider cannot race anymore, he is riding a privateer team this year.
I grew up riding and building 2 strokes. I loved the simplicity and cost savings over a 4 stroke. Many years went past and did not know of all the changes and restrictions. I think if 2 stokes really made a come back they could produce huge horsepower and bring the noise and competitiveness back in the sport between the two. For me, I like the two stroke.
I'm with you on that. I ride a 2 stroke 250 and my kids ride 2 strokes, that's all they've ridden. We ride mostly on the intense side of Enduro though.
For sure need to allow the 250 two stroke in the pro 250 class. For reasons you already mentioned: budget friendlier, easy to work on, exciting to ride, etc. Would give privateers a better chance at showing up to more rounds to try and qualify. We already got Stankie, Carson Brown, and some others trying to do the two strokes at select races and the fans LOVE IT. Hell, even that Italian kid Lapucci (I think) in Europe just won one of the feeder 250 class championships on a two stroke. I say bring em back, got nothing to lose here AMA!
I would just add that there would need to be limitations on motor mods. It takes a lot less to get a lot more out of a two stroke than a four stroke if I'm not mistaken.
I also race 250 2t’s on the local level in Canada. I find it can help level the playing field for me as I am 230lbs with gear and the extra power is just enough to account for my weight vs an average size guy on a 250f. If a 13 year old on a 125 wants to slap me around the extra power still won’t save me but if it’s an even battle I won’t lose just because I can’t pull a hill like lighter guys can.
This is already all happened 20 years ago when the 4 stroke started to take over slowly everyone switched to 4 stroke and all the classes were like half 2 stroke and half 4 stroke. Then they just stopped making 2 strokes and the whole sport went 4 stroke only. Bunch of zoomies weren’t born until after the 2 stroke wars
I learned to ride on a 250 2 stroke, then a year later switched to a YZ490 2 stroke. Today, at 63 yrs old, I ride a WR450F. I'm not as crazy as I was back in the 70s and 80s and 90s. But I still ride hard. Let me just say, my son, 26yrs old, leaves my 450F in the dust on his YZ 250 2 stroke. On any track, the 250 2 stroke is quicker. I feel sorry for the riders that never got to experience the sheer exhilaration of a big bore 2 stroke. The 500 2 stroke was a beast of a machine. I ran a 17 tooth on the front and a 38 on the rear. She'd do 100MPH, and still throw a huge rooster, off the line in 2nd gear. So much low down torque, it was insane. However, a 250 2 stroke would keep up with the 500s in a straight drag, until the 250 was flat out. Oh, boy, those were the days. I wish I was young again.
thanks for an unbiased head to head discussion on 2 stroke vs 4 stroke. It was nice just to hear the rider's honest personal take on the pros and cons of each
I grew up on 2 strokes and when checking lap times against my son's 250F, I was faster on the 2 stroke. Not by much but as for the fun factor, it wasn't even close for me, the 2 stroke is just more fun to ride. Not as easy, but WAY more fun.
It would be even dumber! 4 stroke would make HP in the high to mid 50's and 2 stroke would be in the 70's HP wise! Not sure why guys still think 4 strokes "caught up" to the smokers...
I grew up on 2strokes and I love the power to weight ratios. Found I could go really fast on them and get thoroughly absorbed when racing hard. I guess it's like you say, it's what you grow up with. Two stroke is definitely less expensive to start with.
I would definitely love to see a 250 class with a mix of two strokes and four strokes. I truly believe it would bring a new level of excitement and enthusiasm to the race fans.
This is a very fair and honest review. I grew up in the 2 stroke racing era and at 45 I ride a 2005 RM250. Yes it’s challenging and you have to think ahead when cornering but that’s what makes MX racing depend more on the riders and not so much the bike.
I just got back into riding this year after 13 years away, and got an 04 CR250R. Always rode 4 strokes before. I have more fun, and am faster, on the 2 stroke. We need to see them come back!
@Jeff English, I am there with you sir. I have a few years on you and having ridden both 2 and 4 stroke MX bikes thanks to a diverse group of riding buddies, I have to say that my heart still belongs to the 2T bikes for all the reasons you mentioned. I think that if OEM companies got together with Athena and made the 2T bikes all fuel injected they could meet emissions requirements and put them back into AMA so riders have a choice.
@@killacoiler1707 Why should a non road legal off road mx race bike have to meet emissions standards? Imagine if top fuel drag cars had to make emission standards? LOL. Getting rid of 2t had nothing to do with the environment no matter what they claim.
@@sassafraswakeboyz4121 A heavy flywheel is one of the things that made Maicos so potent back in the day. 2-stroke power with 4-stroke smoothness and traction. It can make bikes "feel" slower, but then you look around and wonder why everyone else is roosting so much but not going anywhere.
It's like going from a half worn rear tire to a brand new one. Also great for stall resistance during braking and low speed trail riding. Even starts easier!
I just love 2 stroke. That’s my bread and butter. Always partial to them because I started riding them early on. The sound is more natural to me. I appreciate and respect where the 4 stroke has progressed to but it’s not the same for me.
I've advocated this for this for the last decade on Vital. Some guys are just faster on one or the other. I'm a 2 stroke guy myself ( Husky 125 / 250 ) , but I would sure as hell ride the 250F as well. They both shine in different track surfaces.
I just bought a new 2024 YZ 250 2 stroke,and could not be happier. Never considered the 4 stroke platform an option for the MX platform bike. Its just not the same. 2 stroke power band and that undeniable ping ping ping sound and the distinctive smell of the 2 stroke engine you never forget. 2 Stroke all the way baby! 🏁🏆
I agree with what you're saying about an open 250 class. It really depends on the rider and the track. This would provide exciting competition, and would encourage the manufacturers to up their game to produce the best bikes they can.
I've had a kx450 for a few years now and I bought a Yz250 2t as well, I have more fun on the yz but also it gives me confidence to ride the kx faster and smoother.. Couldn't have one without the other
I used to ride and race my cranked up YZ465 in desert and enduro races and loved every minute of it. There is nothing like the crazy HP and torque of a big 2 stroke. Crazy, yes, but that's what made it fun!
I grew up on 2 strokes so am biased. After spending a couple years on 4 strokes, I can say the new ones are ridiculously easy to ride and make me look good… but my YZ250 is still more fun to ride.
Yes!!! Rules changes needed! Level the playing field to allow 250 2 strokes to go up against 250 4 strokes. If Cali doesn't like it, just leave that stinkin' place (like everybody else is) and race elsewhere!! 🏍️
I grew up racing in the 90s and early 2000s. Finished my career in motocross in 125 A class as an amateur. I remember just before I hung it up due to injuries riding my 2002 YZ125 vs a 2002 YZ250F and was blown away with how much easier the 4 stroke was to ride. I was instantly able to put down faster laps due to the power delivery. But the 125 was more fun. I remember thinking about how much more throttle and braking control it took to thrash my 125 around the track. I think the new 450s are just too much bike for the sport. The tracks have gotten dangerous to accommodate the insane power.
450 to much bike for the sport and you;'re an A class rider? You should have been around when full factory 500cc 2 strokers were around. I was 14 riding my and friends 250 and 500 2 strokers and loved every minute of it.
I agree MDZ my favorite bike to ride was a 1993 CR 125. It didn’t matter if the track was dry, wet, tacky, it was always wide open and always had the closest competition. My CR 250 on the other had would throw you on the ground if you didn’t respect it and focus on power delivery. Now with the new 450s traction control and motors making more torque / hp than the common man handle it puts people in a position to go very fast early in their learning curve.
Nice job, as usual. Yes to straight up 250 class. Also, as a rider who came up in the 80's is is just awesome that we have legit 2 and 4 stroke options. Bad part is I'm now too old to even come close to scratching the surface of what they can do. All said my KTM 150 is the most fun dirt bike I've ever had. Now is a great time to be in the market for a dirt bike.
I'm 69 now and grew up on 2 strokes. My first serious bike was the legendary Penton 125 which took Enduro riding to a whole different plane. My nephews now have 4 strokes and like them and I've tried theirs as well. I just cannot abandon the feel of a 2 stroke. I don't feel like I'm racing unless I'm revving at 10,000 rpm on my current bike, a KTM 150 xcw with the Lectron Carb (which it took to make this thing run right). I think once a true 2 stroker, there's no turning back.
We do it and have been doing it in Australia for ages as you said and its awesome honestly. Not really a overly competitive advantage but makes it so much easier for amateurs at the top or nearing top level... Not to mention the coolest part of all, MORE SEAT TIME!!! Go to a club meet, show up on one bike and you're racing in two classes. Its awesome! PS its a two stroke, come on, you're always having fun on them.
We were the same in nz but the 2 strokes got band I can only think it was because the likes of Honda, kawasaki, and Suzuki had a cry and protested, it was so good for racing that when we were doing it the 250 class had a bigger following than the 450, the best rider will win and did anyway
0:45 "you could buy two 2 strokes for the price of one 4 stroke" Uhhh... If your talking about brand new msrp, a 2020 yz250 is $7500, vs 4 stroke $8,199.... Not sure if your talking about used, even then prices are outrageous right now
I grew up riding 2 strokes and the 4 strokes are a solid bike but I have always loved to hear that power band kick in. Younger people I think would lobe to ride the 2 stroke. A four stroke is made for mountain trails and mud and sharp turning trails 2 stroke loves that open area where you can take off and hit those jumps and bigger tracks, you can ride the wet mud but you need to pay attention and be careful through those spots. I am 56 now and at my age I would jump on the 4 stroke because I’m just getting to old for 2 stroke but even now when I hear a power band kick in and that bike take off my heart starts pumping and I am excited. 2 stroke will always be my first ❤️. Exciting!
The way the modern 4 strokes are I understand this head to head. BUT correct me if I’m wrong, when the 4 strokes started out, the 450s were meant to be in the 250 class, and the 250f bikes were meant for the 125 class? I think that’s what needs to happen. Just allow 2 strokes altogether 125s run with 250f and 250 with 450
@@EarthSurferUSA as a guy who privateers both bikes and pays for everything out of pocket. And who grew up on thumpers. The 4 strokes have a ridability factor that most people enjoy.. they don't have to worry about what gear they dive into a corner at as much. If manufacturers made as many improvements to the 2 strokes that they have been on 4 strokes the old class rules would still be the best option imo. idk about the same power part though.. Stock vs. Stock the 2 stroke (47hp) has 8 hp over the 4 stroke (39hp) With a few bolt on changes (pipe, reeds etc.) A yz250 can easily break 50-52 hp with a torque increase as well. To make a 4 stroke hit 50hp would cost a large amount of money and would mean the engine only lasts 1 or 2 races before needing an overhaul on the top end at least. It cost an extra $4500 to give my 2018 yz250f even a chance against my 2006 yz250. Now my cr250... that one can't be touched by any 250 4 stroke. And most guys on open track night can't touch it on the 450's. But it isn't legal to even race anymore by the last set of rules created for 2 strokes. She dynos at 63hp and 35lb/ft torque. Screamin' eagle all the way! And don't get started on 450 4 stroke vs 500 2 stroke. There is plenty of videos to see the results. And when even 2 stroke happy Europe bans that size 2 strokes from the class.
Love to see our local rippers on the 250 2stroke. Such a blast to watch. I ride one myself and you need to have the technique otherwise you notice it instantly in armpump etc.
Great job guys , really love these builds / test / compare projects. I have been motoing, motocross and Offroad ride-race since 1979 and still can't get enough. current quiver : 150, 200, 300, 380 2T and 250F (want 300F build), 450F, 570F. Really love them all and fun and challenging to figure out how to best ride them in any given environment. This is what keeps me and my family in the sport... Keep it up... Thank You.
Probably not so much on the YZ as it has been pretty much stale (same damn bike) for over 10 years. Throw a Beta 250RR, a KTM (read KTM, Husky, Gas Gas...) 250 or other euro bikes that have continued development and yeah, there is a huge difference.
Yep it’s a no brainer, copy Australia and introduce limits on engine mods, the rules in Australia is you can’t touch anything between the reed valve and exhaust port.
Bring it back. Ive had quite a few bikes. Once I got my '01 CR250, I never wanted to ride anything else. Most fun bike Ive ever ridden...fun on the track, in the woods, in the mountains....just fun everywhere.
A late 80s/90s CR500 has more HP and torque than a brand new 450 four stroke with just a few bolt ons. Thats 20 years of development extra for the 450. Two strokes could and should rule the track, no kneecapping restrictions needed. The best riders on the best bikes win.
And the CR500 engine wasn't even special. It was a bloodthirsty monster in 85 and 86, but after that they got tired of killing people and bought things way back down, focusing more on handling and controllability. All those big-bad CR500s of the 90s were seriously detuned! The KX continued to be a complete animal of a motor, albeit typically not a great-handling bike for MX. Many discount it today because of the unfashionable air-cooling, but the old YZ490 also had a habit of winning holeshot averages in magazine shootouts. Nobody bought them, but KTM and Husky and Maico all made absolutely eye-watering 500 motors in the 80s. The CR is a great motor, not because it was special, but because it was just a plain and simple 500 that works. That's all you need to beat a 450F - just "an 500".
This isn't the first time I've heard a younger guy say he didn't like a 2stroke. Glad I grew up in the 2T era. I still pull out the 88 CR just to have fun. No matter how good a 450 can get, a 2stroke ride is just a good throwback for me.
Just an even 250 class. 95% of riders will still be faster on the 250f. Even when the bikes are hopped up I still think it’s even, most will still choose the 250f.
You know I was a big Honda rider back in the day but I have to give a huge shout out to Yamaha and KTM for keeping the 2 strokes alive. They are the only true racing machines. I’m gonna go a step further and say someone either needs to change the AMA rules or just say the hell with them and open up a new organization where all riders that race get points which gives them their number at the end of the year. The other thing is get every bike rider to join the organization so that they have have a pro season on 2 strokes only and get well paid and have the best riders. The sport has badly damaged due to 4 strokes and the fan base is down to nothing as well as not being able to reach the youth. It’s not the EPA that has caused this issue because the 2 strokes are still raced and sold. The problem is no one wants the 2 stroke being that they have to race a class up which is not fair. I will never understand how that rule came into affect. The 4 strokes were to slow so they made the 2 strokes race a class up. That should tell you everything right there. The 4 strokes are simply not good enough. Yes they are smoother but it takes away from the feel of racing and of course it’s smoother and it’s because it’s slower and a 4 stroke gas engine and not a racing engine
I saw JS7 ripping up his privet track on a 2-stroke a few years ago for fun. Fast as always. But he did say there was more vibration coming through the bars. Is that Arm pump and or can that be changed by rubber bushings in the steering area? It didn’t seem to Slow down James and he had the Stewart smile we all love on his face after that. But he is James and we are not. Haha
I am fortunate enough to have grown up in an era when 2 stroke technology was just beginning to advance from air cooled to liquid cooled, power valves were being introduced, dual rear shocks were being abandoned, and hydraulic disc brakes were replacing drums. If you never rode a 2t that did not have a power valve you do not know what the term being on the pipe truly means. When I first started out there were no KIPS systems and having a mechanic that knew how to port and tune heads to get awesome power was paramount, and then having the stones to wring a machine to the gills afterwards was the difference between being lost in the pack and taking a podium spot. There was no mid-way of the road you were either committed to it and all in or you were getting eaten alive and dragging an anchor. I am also old enough to remember when conventional forks came with accordion dirt gators on every one of my new MX bikes. I had CR 480 that kicked on the left side of the bike, I had an 83 KX 250 that had a mechanical rear brake linkage, I rode Honda, Yamaha, and Bultacos that had steel fuel tanks and were nearly the weight of a moder R6 street bike. These bikes and their power delivery characteristics required a rider to be a throttle jockey and had major learning curves they didn't have systems that compensated allowing a rider to concentrate more on track conditions than the bike itself. I have rode some of the scariest and hairiest 2t machines known to MX history. I have to say that modern MX riders do not know how good they have it and just how easy technology advancements in both 2 and 4 stroke platforms have made it for them to be competitive, and far more comfortable in the process. I urge anyone looking to become a better and more aggressive rider to take a blast on an early 1980s KX 250 or CR from that era. I guarantee you come back to the pits with wrist pump like never before, your heart beating out of your chest, and exhausted beyond belief. An old school 2t will make a hardened and battle tested warrior out of you. They are quirky unpredictable beasts that challenge you as a rider every time you throw a leg over them. If you train on an old school bike regularly, and can learn how to ride the wild, when you get back on your light weight thumper you will have 3x the stamina, dive in 2x as fast, and shave 3 to 4 seconds off your former lap times. You will also be one of the wisest riders in your class because you will have a greater understanding for how to be one with the machine and be able to push it harder and longer than you ever thought possible. Modern MX bikes are already much tamer and most likely you will be trying to find the beast within it. Then should they allow a straight 250 class you might even find yourself looking for a 2t to race simply because it is far more challenging and exhilarating 🤷♂️👨⚖️.
I race an 83 yamaha yz125 in AHRMA and vintage mx... first year for powervalve, drum brakes, etc. And yeah the most fun bike ive ever ridden by far. ( 195lbs. Race weight) Well excepd my dads 72 CZ250... that bike will shake the filling out of ur teeth, give you a heart attack and break your hip all in one twist of the throttle lol. There a video on my channel if you wanna hear that sweet vintage mx sound
@@EarthSurferUSA unfortunately you are correct about the government overreach. The individual states cower to the whim of centralized government and forget about the separation of powers. The sad thing is that there have been companies that have produced fuel injected 2T engines that far supercede the EPA emissions requirements, so then they gripe about noise pollution. It is uptight wankers that have never enjoyed life's simpler pleasures dictating how we should enjoy our leisure hours so that it does not interrupt their golf outings or polo meets. All bureaucratic bullshit nothing more. Anything that deals with motorcycle culture is demonized and heaven forbid we have a passion for modded automobiles because, well, those are evil too. Anything fun and adventurous and adrenaline pumping is not kosher with the uptight, 3 piece suit wearing yuppies, that I call generation Xanax.
I raced professional motocross in the 60-70’s. Bultaco, Puch, Maico, Husky, Penton, Montesa, CZ, Jawa, no Japanese, all 2 strokes, all European. Harley had some overweight, underpowered 2 stroke. I raced a Montesa 125 and CZ 400. We had a mini bike class, 125 class, 250 class, and an open class. I raced the 125 class with my Montesa 125 and open class with my CZ. 2 strokes have twice the power and half the moving parts.(power stroke every crank rotation vs 2 for a 4 stroke). Simple to work on. Your clutch was your second throttle, feathering to keep the bike in its narrow powerband. Yamaha and KTM have keep 2 strokes alive. All the tech has gone into 4 strokes both with lightening the engine and bike. The YZ 250 has made 50 horsepower for years. The YZ 450 f has been gaining more horsepower/year with weight nearing the 250 2 stroke. I still love the on/off power of a 2 stroke with that smell of oil especially Blendzall oil. 4 strokes are more forgiving vs keeping the 2 stroke on the pipe. I still prefer a 2 stroke. That bang of power all at once. Just keep the throttle wide open the whole time. Fun!
Hell yes ✊🏼 I’ll go one step farther and say they should go full old school and have three classes! 125, 250, and open. Would love to see a 125 pro class racing along with some uncontrollable big bore two strokes! 👍🤔🤷♂️
I was a Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, KTM dealer in 1997 when all all received the letter’s for the OEM explaining that because of environmental concerns, especially in Ca that the 2 strokes would be phased out. I had someone at one of the OEM’s tell me it was all BS and that is was all about marketing and that mark his word 10 years from then 2 strokes would still be around. There are many in the industry that will argue that point that it was marketing but I truly believe it was and it sold thousands of bike world wide, because everyone thought their two stroke was about to obsolete and possibly outlawed. It may have sold a lot of bike initially but it has hurt the spot possibly beyond repair because of the stupid price of the bikes and the maintenance. Consider that you can buy 20 year old two stroke rebuild it and be competitive but a 10 year old racing four stroke is a POS not worth the cost of keeping it running. I will not even mention the marketing behind aluminum frames😎
Hey i really think 4 stroke are great but the cost is nuts rebuilds are nuts price wise...450s are insanely fast for anyone not racing them i see 450s in supermoto with RR sport tires an they wheely like a moto gp bike...
After selling my CRF450 and going to a YZ250 I’ll never go back, I’m slower on the two stroke but I don’t care because I’m not racing, most people would have more fun on a two stroke if they gave it a chance, and…..engine breaking sucks !
They also do it in the EMX 250 class in Europe, which was won this year by a Fantic 250 2t vs the bulk of the field on 250fs. Its proven successful everywhere it’s done elsewhere in the world and at a competitive level it’s raised the level of rider skill, one reason IMO over the last decade the Euros are dominant again outdoors is in the EMX field ( European championship rounds) is they have 65/85/125/250 2 stroke class’s and allow a open 250 class 2 or 4 stroke, yes it takes more skill but the sport is about skill always has been, this easy to ride BS has weakened the US and I have always said this a good rider on a 2 stroke is better than a good rider on a 4 stroke, it’s proven time and time again, look at results. But the modern world is lazy it’s that simple, people just aren’t the same as they once were in the heyday of the sport. Lesser riders are also happier because it makes them feel more competitive 2 strokes do require more skill and the sport should reflect this, it should expose your weaknesses. It also makes it safer so muppets aren’t doing the dead sailor around the tracks or crossing lanes the pros go on and on, re being a better rider, one thing the other dude brought up which is 100% correct, shouldn’t that always be the goal. As a rider, I want to have fun sure, but I have also always wanted to progress and develop my skills to be better, faster, more technically sound, what IMO makes it one of the best sports is you are and can constantly learn new things. Again been saying this for years too, you can see it at the track clearly on 4t who lacks technique and is a throttle jockey when the straight section to a jump comes into play. One thing I personally hate today is any muppet can go buy a 450 plonk around the track, back when we had 500s few were stupid enough to ride a 500 that couldn’t ride well enough, you couldn’t just take time out on a 500 even a 250 still commands respect which it should do which makes track awareness IME opinion better, the racing is better, at a pro level I’d also like to see start assists dropped from bikes and get back to skill on the start line again it will spread the field into the first turn more and the best will get there as it should be, I doubt AMA will do it, I doubt the 3 of the Japanese manufactures will support this and as they did in the 2090s will threaten a boycott on the AMA if they were to re introduce what should have always been..What’s best for the sport, 100% sure though KTM and Yamaha would support it. 🤘
American Scene of Motocross is lazy and lacking of skill and fun factor. The Euros now how to do it with their classes and specifications making them the fastest as they compete around the world unlike promotocross going to groomed and fast tracks. Also Supercross is the factor that we don't have good outdoors riders the only exception is Eli Tomac.
Great idea! I completely agree with the comparison. I have a 2001 YZ250 and a 2015 YZ250F. Both have their strengths. Each is fun in it's own way. The right rider on the 2-stroke could definitely be competitive.
Its way past time to allow that 250 class you mentioned, here in the US. Also, I say "who cares" if the 250 2 stroke gets modified to a point where it smashes the daylights out of the 250 4 stroke power-wise... let 'em eat. Other than keeping a 250cc displacement, no restrictions at all on how either the 2 or 4 stroke bikes get modified in this new 250 class. 4 strokes have been given an unfair displacement advantage for far too long.
I raced 250 Yamaha and Kawasaki, when Kawasaki purpose built the 82’ 250. I raced Flattrack, and the Yamaha was easier to alter where you needed horsepower. The flywheel was a area to work on if you knew about how much it changed the characteristics of the bike. A 350 two stroke twin I had was a good teacher.riding TT’s . If it had long straights or some deep sandy corners . A flat 1/2 mile was fun to do testing , mixing different weights of flywheels . Making a big change was the only way to understand what you were looking for. Then you have A starting point.also inner flywheel opposed to outer flywheels. BIG DIFFERENCE!! give it a try, easier than everything else, gearing jetting etc. if it’s runs right, and you don’t run out of gear on the long straight-a- ways , go to the flywhee. Good luck..
I want to see a head to head (same cc) experienced 2 stroke and experienced 4 stroke rider race to the finish line! I haven't ridden a bike in years, but i grew up during the 2 st era, and MAAAAAAN they are a blast to ride! Loved the Elsinore's (125cc) as a kid!!!!!!!!
A BUILT RACE YZ 125 & changing rear sprockets, will run circles around a STOCK YZ-250 2-stroke or 4-stroke!!! I have done it MANY Times at several tracks I have raced at!!
I'm 58 raced 500 2 strokes with motor mods. Love the power,sound,feel. Just the money difference alone is staggering. I feel run what you got and go cc for cc. No cheaters in the A class.
Various flywheel weights could be used on the two stroke to hook up or spin whichever is quicker. If you think it can’t hook try a 8 or 10 oz weight. I really wish web could get a true open class as well with No limit. Or at least equal displacement, a tuned 450 two stroke could definitely hang or bang with a four stroke. Two strokes almost always make more Torque given equal size. In the end it will be which bike can use the most power on a given track.
Interesting question, both are strong but ride a 2 stroke is definitely more fun and a 2 stroke has a more aggressive engine character, so yes i choose 2 stroke al day long.
My YZ250 is the funnest thing I have ever ridden. Now I have put alot of money into it and it runs race fuel and I can pull on 450s all day. But I'm not a racer. So I understand why people race 4 strokes cause they want to win, I just think its funny they have too neuter the 2 strokes to make it fair. 2 strokes for life
Emissions were kinda/sorta a consideration when the switch to four strokes happened, ya know? Two strokes are powerful and light, yes, but they're not coming back.
Great review guys! I really appreciate how you guys were on both sides and not biased about your decision. I like hiw Shawn said, he did not grow up riding two-stroke but grew up in the four stroke era. I totally get it. Power delivery is completely different between the bikes, especially engine braking on a four stroke definitely a learning curve. I didn’t necessarily need to watch this video but for anybody that is going to watch it in the future, this is solid information they should know. Thanks guys, cheers!
I sold my KTM 350 and bought a YZ250 after riding 4 strokes for many years. Couldn't be happier, so much fun!
Same! Fx350 to a yz250. 2 strokes are just so fun. I wont go back to 4 stroke
@@tylergibbs260 faxx man!
What year is your 250?
@@sassafraswakeboyz4121 2020
Yeaaaa sure ya did! I call BS .
I'm 45. I grew up riding 2 strokes and own a 300 ktm. Modern 4's have become very capable, but nothing will replace the sound, smell and excitement of riding something that will try and kill you if you get sloppy. 4 strokes are civil, 2 strokes are wild, especially older ones that were all about the big hit. You have to ride them flat out and hang on. They are hard work but the smile is much bigger.
I’m 22 and I couldn’t agree more with the wildness of the 2 stroke, however I only call it wild cause everyone else does, that’s all I’ve ever ridden besides a 250 Honda 3 wheeler
Absolutely well put. MYCH more fun. I think a lot of 4 strikers are scared of them or lack the skill to tame them. They are lazy and that is the wrong reason to pick a bike.
Two strokes are just the best machine's out there, I love how unpredictable the powerband is sometimes because that will always make you smile
@@nelsonvzaks9186 the "grin factor" is closely related to the risk of sudden death if you let her power get away from you!😊
I'm same age and grew up on two strokes starting on the 80cc and worked up to 250 before I moved over to 450 4 banger but recently gone back to 300cc two stroke KTM Enduro and love the new even torque power theyved got. Still has a little bark but nothing like the old mx ones
I raced the 250 two stroke against 250 four strokes here in Canada just at the local level. From my perspective I think they should always allow a straight 250 class. The results won't change because the best racer is going to win whether they're on a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke. It just brings that fun factor back to the sport. And that's what the sport is all about.
nah not really. 2005 you would be right but now a 450 will fck a 250 2t and a 250f will fck a 125. just cc class would be good.
@corn pop how a bike makes power and puts it to the ground is more important than raw HP...when the track is prime first practice the 250 smoker may have an advantage, when it's rough, baked, or deep then the 250F will have an advantage. The 250F just hooks up so much better off the start and when the track is baked late in the first and all of the second moto. This is especially true in supercross ... so they should both be allowed in tve same class, it can make privateers more competitive for cheaper and allow more guys to try and qualify for nationals and supercross. But against factory bikes, the 250F is going to be better all around.
eeeh what...? why? the two stroke is in line with the 450 four stroke in terms of power.
@@cfvgd no. It's not in late 90's early 2000s when the modern 4t appeared on the track and at the dealers. A 250 2t was comparable to a 450. The 450 only had a few hp on them. The torque numbers even today are only a few numbers off. A modern 450 only puts down about 3 more ft pnds than the essentialy 20 year old yz250 2t motor.
It's traction. Usuable power than has always made the modern 4t shine. Not shear hp. The modern 250 4t is actually right on par with the 2t in the hp department. Mid 40's.
But the 4t gives up about 10ftpnd of torque to the 2t. But once again usuable power is king. 2 stroke delivers essentially all its hp and torque at the same time. 4t has a very flat broad power curve. It's all in the delivery.
Everybody Just assumes because of the but dyno the traction they feel with a 4t is torque. Reality the 2t destroys the 4t worse than hp in this department even given a 20+ technology advantage. Power numbers per cc 2 stroke all day everyday. Usuable power.. 4t no contest
Facts
1000% we need to go 250 vs 250. Been doing it for years in other countries. Bring back the 2strokes!!
Yeah. The 250 fours should be allowed bore kits over 250cc. It's not a true 250vs250 but we all know how that would go. That would be the way i would have it set up.
@@samm9174 What do you mean how that would go? Dude a 250 smoker and a 250 four stroke are almost comparable in terms of power now, and the 4 stroke will still throw a faster lap time.
@@Jacksonflax 250 2 stroke have more power and less weight than a 4 stroke. Guy in the video even said the 4 stroke wasn't able to clear the jumps as clean because of the noticeable decrease in power....
@@samm9174My guy we're talking about pro racing here... Some teams are claiming numbers deep in the 50s on their factory 250s. You literally can't get a 250 smoker to match that at peak, Let alone what the rest of the curve would look like.
@@Jacksonflax 250 two strokes would dominate every race.
I have a 4 stroke and a 2 stroke, there about even on top end but the 2 stroke is definitely more fun and scarier when your in the power band. Comfort and confidence goes to the 4 stroke
Ridden 250 2 strokes most of my life from age 18 to late 40's. Got a 250 four stroke cause I was bored. That bike handles amazing and has allowed me to increase my skill level as it is so forgiving and fun to ride. However I started to lack some excitement in my riding so I had to park another 250 smoker next to the four stroke in the garage. The wife doesn't understand but I tell her my truck won't fit in the garage next to her car so I needed something to fill in the space.
A great video guys.
I’m 50, & in the 80s we all used to watch all 2 strokes race.
There was nothing better then standing at the start line, & sniffing in all the 2 stroke exhaust fumes, & listening to there sound.
I about spit my coffee out when I heard "these things are bullet proof now" & "less maintenance on a 4 stroke than a 2 stroke."
Lol same the guy was definitely paid to say that. He could be a politician.
Yup, more moving parts equals more maintenance, and rebuilding 1 is 4 times if not more then rebuilding a smoker
Literally impossible. 😂
@@NotMissingLink Right?!
I suddenly got worried about my 22 YZ250 preorder. I bought this so I would have less maintenance concerns (planning on keeping it about 20 years).
I Agree 100% 250cc 2 or 4 stroke together, the 4 strokes made the sport a (elite shit). The Brazilian nationals this year the 2 strokes could race against the 4 strokes, the rider Lucas Dunka won 5 of 6 heats on a yz 250, people are talking shit, but the same rider won the title before, when he was factory Honda (crf250). Without a 2 stroke that rider cannot race anymore, he is riding a privateer team this year.
I grew up riding and building 2 strokes. I loved the simplicity and cost savings over a 4 stroke. Many years went past and did not know of all the changes and restrictions. I think if 2 stokes really made a come back they could produce huge horsepower and bring the noise and competitiveness back in the sport between the two. For me, I like the two stroke.
I'm with you on that. I ride a 2 stroke 250 and my kids ride 2 strokes, that's all they've ridden. We ride mostly on the intense side of Enduro though.
For sure need to allow the 250 two stroke in the pro 250 class. For reasons you already mentioned: budget friendlier, easy to work on, exciting to ride, etc. Would give privateers a better chance at showing up to more rounds to try and qualify. We already got Stankie, Carson Brown, and some others trying to do the two strokes at select races and the fans LOVE IT. Hell, even that Italian kid Lapucci (I think) in Europe just won one of the feeder 250 class championships on a two stroke. I say bring em back, got nothing to lose here AMA!
I would just add that there would need to be limitations on motor mods. It takes a lot less to get a lot more out of a two stroke than a four stroke if I'm not mistaken.
@@nate2838
Definitely 👍👍👍
Dude, 250 2 strokes are comparable to a 450. 125s are comparable to 250 four strokes
I also race 250 2t’s on the local level in Canada. I find it can help level the playing field for me as I am 230lbs with gear and the extra power is just enough to account for my weight vs an average size guy on a 250f. If a 13 year old on a 125 wants to slap me around the extra power still won’t save me but if it’s an even battle I won’t lose just because I can’t pull a hill like lighter guys can.
This is already all happened 20 years ago when the 4 stroke started to take over slowly everyone switched to 4 stroke and all the classes were like half 2 stroke and half 4 stroke. Then they just stopped making 2 strokes and the whole sport went 4 stroke only. Bunch of zoomies weren’t born until after the 2 stroke wars
I learned to ride on a 250 2 stroke, then a year later switched to a YZ490 2 stroke. Today, at 63 yrs old, I ride a WR450F. I'm not as crazy as I was back in the 70s and 80s and 90s. But I still ride hard. Let me just say, my son, 26yrs old, leaves my 450F in the dust on his YZ 250 2 stroke. On any track, the 250 2 stroke is quicker.
I feel sorry for the riders that never got to experience the sheer exhilaration of a big bore 2 stroke. The 500 2 stroke was a beast of a machine.
I ran a 17 tooth on the front and a 38 on the rear. She'd do 100MPH, and still throw a huge rooster, off the line in 2nd gear. So much low down torque, it was insane. However, a 250 2 stroke would keep up with the 500s in a straight drag, until the 250 was flat out.
Oh, boy, those were the days. I wish I was young again.
thanks for an unbiased head to head discussion on 2 stroke vs 4 stroke. It was nice just to hear the rider's honest personal take on the pros and cons of each
I grew up on 2 strokes and when checking lap times against my son's 250F, I was faster on the 2 stroke. Not by much but as for the fun factor, it wasn't even close for me, the 2 stroke is just more fun to ride. Not as easy, but WAY more fun.
Always
Same here. Dad was a Suzuki dealer. I would daydream about those 80cc dirt bikes all day long in the 3rd grade.
@@david_sdiego imo the RM125 is unrivaled to this day in it's class. Suzuki's are bad ass.
If it was at 4:50 it would be way faster
Would love to see a race shop build on both of those bikes and then do the same shootout and see how they would still stack up
YESSSS!
2-stroke will still be faster for a whole lot less.
Pipe, reeds, head, port and polish and the two stroke has a huge head start.
It would be even dumber! 4 stroke would make HP in the high to mid 50's and 2 stroke would be in the 70's HP wise! Not sure why guys still think 4 strokes "caught up" to the smokers...
I grew up on 2strokes and I love the power to weight ratios. Found I could go really fast on them and get thoroughly absorbed when racing hard. I guess it's like you say, it's what you grow up with. Two stroke is definitely less expensive to start with.
I would definitely love to see a 250 class with a mix of two strokes and four strokes. I truly believe it would bring a new level of excitement and enthusiasm to the race fans.
New modern four stroke for me any day! I grew up racing 2 strokes as a kid too.
This is a very fair and honest review. I grew up in the 2 stroke racing era and at 45 I ride a 2005 RM250. Yes it’s challenging and you have to think ahead when cornering but that’s what makes MX racing depend more on the riders and not so much the bike.
I just got back into riding this year after 13 years away, and got an 04 CR250R. Always rode 4 strokes before. I have more fun, and am faster, on the 2 stroke. We need to see them come back!
I still have my 05 RM 250 and love it
I ride an 05 RM250. Apex MX head, vforce3, pro circuit works and factory sound. Bike rips!
@Jeff English, I am there with you sir. I have a few years on you and having ridden both 2 and 4 stroke MX bikes thanks to a diverse group of riding buddies, I have to say that my heart still belongs to the 2T bikes for all the reasons you mentioned.
I think that if OEM companies got together with Athena and made the 2T bikes all fuel injected they could meet emissions requirements and put them back into AMA so riders have a choice.
@@killacoiler1707 Why should a non road legal off road mx race bike have to meet emissions standards? Imagine if top fuel drag cars had to make emission standards? LOL. Getting rid of 2t had nothing to do with the environment no matter what they claim.
I love to put a heavy flywheel on the 2 strokes , it really helps back and front end traction and they still rip !
Does that really help???????
I like it , i even put one on my yz450 and it's a blast
@@sassafraswakeboyz4121 A heavy flywheel is one of the things that made Maicos so potent back in the day. 2-stroke power with 4-stroke smoothness and traction. It can make bikes "feel" slower, but then you look around and wonder why everyone else is roosting so much but not going anywhere.
Adding weight to the fly wheel makes a two-stroke act the way I want them to. Great top end with real good bottom end.
It's like going from a half worn rear tire to a brand new one. Also great for stall resistance during braking and low speed trail riding. Even starts easier!
Nothing will ever change my love for the sound, feel, and smell of a 2-stroke.
I just love 2 stroke. That’s my bread and butter. Always partial to them because I started riding them early on. The sound is more natural to me. I appreciate and respect where the 4 stroke has progressed to but it’s not the same for me.
And it sounds like a fart
I've advocated this for this for the last decade on Vital. Some guys are just faster on one or the other. I'm a 2 stroke guy myself ( Husky 125 / 250 ) , but I would sure as hell ride the 250F as well. They both shine in different track surfaces.
I'm old school. 2Stroke all the way. So easy to work on and love the sound and smell.
I just bought a new 2024 YZ 250 2 stroke,and could not be happier. Never considered the 4 stroke platform an option for the MX platform bike. Its just not the same. 2 stroke power band and that undeniable ping ping ping sound and the distinctive smell of the 2 stroke engine you never forget.
2 Stroke all the way baby!
🏁🏆
I agree with what you're saying about an open 250 class. It really depends on the rider and the track. This would provide exciting competition, and would encourage the manufacturers to up their game to produce the best bikes they can.
I've had a kx450 for a few years now and I bought a Yz250 2t as well, I have more fun on the yz but also it gives me confidence to ride the kx faster and smoother.. Couldn't have one without the other
I used to ride and race my cranked up YZ465 in desert and enduro races and loved every minute of it. There is nothing like the crazy HP and torque of a big 2 stroke. Crazy, yes, but that's what made it fun!
That’s for sure, I have both a IT and YZ 465, as long as you keep that motor running they are just so much fun.
I grew up on 2 strokes so am biased. After spending a couple years on 4 strokes, I can say the new ones are ridiculously easy to ride and make me look good… but my YZ250 is still more fun to ride.
Definitely allow both 250 two strokes & 250 four strokes too race together, that would be great!
250 2ts compete against 450fs
125 2ts compete against 250fs
@@sweetwolfasmraudio6726 bro. Shocking how most people dont know that
@@joshuavanzuydam5044 a lot of people actually don't tbh, I've met a lot of riders who think a 250 4t could beat a 500 2t
Wouldn’t 2strokes gap the 4 strokes?
Yes!!! Rules changes needed! Level the playing field to allow 250 2 strokes to go up against 250 4 strokes. If Cali doesn't like it, just leave that stinkin' place (like everybody else is) and race elsewhere!! 🏍️
My favorite bike when I was a kid was my Honda cr80. Riding my 250 two stroke gives me that feeling again
Great video! There should definitely be more 250 open classes throughout the U.S.👍
I grew up racing in the 90s and early 2000s. Finished my career in motocross in 125 A class as an amateur. I remember just before I hung it up due to injuries riding my 2002 YZ125 vs a 2002 YZ250F and was blown away with how much easier the 4 stroke was to ride. I was instantly able to put down faster laps due to the power delivery. But the 125 was more fun. I remember thinking about how much more throttle and braking control it took to thrash my 125 around the track. I think the new 450s are just too much bike for the sport. The tracks have gotten dangerous to accommodate the insane power.
450 to much bike for the sport and you;'re an A class rider? You should have been around when full factory 500cc 2 strokers were around. I was 14 riding my and friends 250 and 500 2 strokers and loved every minute of it.
I agree MDZ my favorite bike to ride was a 1993 CR 125. It didn’t matter if the track was dry, wet, tacky, it was always wide open and always had the closest competition. My CR 250 on the other had would throw you on the ground if you didn’t respect it and focus on power delivery. Now with the new 450s traction control and motors making more torque / hp than the common man handle it puts people in a position to go very fast early in their learning curve.
Nice job, as usual. Yes to straight up 250 class. Also, as a rider who came up in the 80's is is just awesome that we have legit 2 and 4 stroke options. Bad part is I'm now too old to even come close to scratching the surface of what they can do. All said my KTM 150 is the most fun dirt bike I've ever had. Now is a great time to be in the market for a dirt bike.
I'm 69 now and grew up on 2 strokes. My first serious bike was the legendary Penton 125 which took Enduro riding to a whole different plane. My nephews now have 4 strokes and like them and I've tried theirs as well. I just cannot abandon the feel of a 2 stroke. I don't feel like I'm racing unless I'm revving at 10,000 rpm on my current bike, a KTM 150 xcw with the Lectron Carb (which it took to make this thing run right). I think once a true 2 stroker, there's no turning back.
We do it and have been doing it in Australia for ages as you said and its awesome honestly. Not really a overly competitive advantage but makes it so much easier for amateurs at the top or nearing top level... Not to mention the coolest part of all, MORE SEAT TIME!!! Go to a club meet, show up on one bike and you're racing in two classes. Its awesome! PS its a two stroke, come on, you're always having fun on them.
We were the same in nz but the 2 strokes got band I can only think it was because the likes of Honda, kawasaki, and Suzuki had a cry and protested, it was so good for racing that when we were doing it the 250 class had a bigger following than the 450, the best rider will win and did anyway
Great vid and cool to see Klinger in front of the camera. Had the same results riding these bikes back to back at Cahuilla.
With the power the new 4 Bangas make, I think it is down to the riders ability on either bike. All 250 in one class would be reasonably even.
I've been riding my 2001 RM 250 since 2001 and I just love it. There's something about when the powerband kicks in that's deeply satisfying
0:45 "you could buy two 2 strokes for the price of one 4 stroke"
Uhhh... If your talking about brand new msrp, a 2020 yz250 is $7500, vs 4 stroke $8,199.... Not sure if your talking about used, even then prices are outrageous right now
I grew up riding 2 strokes and the 4 strokes are a solid bike but I have always loved to hear that power band kick in. Younger people I think would lobe to ride the 2 stroke. A four stroke is made for mountain trails and mud and sharp turning trails 2 stroke loves that open area where you can take off and hit those jumps and bigger tracks, you can ride the wet mud but you need to pay attention and be careful through those spots. I am 56 now and at my age I would jump on the 4 stroke because I’m just getting to old for 2 stroke but even now when I hear a power band kick in and that bike take off my heart starts pumping and I am excited. 2 stroke will always be my first ❤️. Exciting!
The way the modern 4 strokes are I understand this head to head. BUT correct me if I’m wrong, when the 4 strokes started out, the 450s were meant to be in the 250 class, and the 250f bikes were meant for the 125 class? I think that’s what needs to happen. Just allow 2 strokes altogether 125s run with 250f and 250 with 450
@@EarthSurferUSA as a guy who privateers both bikes and pays for everything out of pocket. And who grew up on thumpers. The 4 strokes have a ridability factor that most people enjoy.. they don't have to worry about what gear they dive into a corner at as much. If manufacturers made as many improvements to the 2 strokes that they have been on 4 strokes the old class rules would still be the best option imo. idk about the same power part though.. Stock vs. Stock the 2 stroke (47hp) has 8 hp over the 4 stroke (39hp) With a few bolt on changes (pipe, reeds etc.) A yz250 can easily break 50-52 hp with a torque increase as well. To make a 4 stroke hit 50hp would cost a large amount of money and would mean the engine only lasts 1 or 2 races before needing an overhaul on the top end at least. It cost an extra $4500 to give my 2018 yz250f even a chance against my 2006 yz250. Now my cr250... that one can't be touched by any 250 4 stroke. And most guys on open track night can't touch it on the 450's. But it isn't legal to even race anymore by the last set of rules created for 2 strokes. She dynos at 63hp and 35lb/ft torque. Screamin' eagle all the way! And don't get started on 450 4 stroke vs 500 2 stroke. There is plenty of videos to see the results. And when even 2 stroke happy Europe bans that size 2 strokes from the class.
Thank you for comparing apples to apples! Great video..👍
Love to see our local rippers on the 250 2stroke. Such a blast to watch.
I ride one myself and you need to have the technique otherwise you notice it instantly in armpump etc.
Great job guys , really love these builds / test / compare projects. I have been motoing, motocross and Offroad ride-race since 1979 and still can't get enough. current quiver : 150, 200, 300, 380 2T and 250F (want 300F build), 450F, 570F. Really love them all and fun and challenging to figure out how to best ride them in any given environment. This is what keeps me and my family in the sport... Keep it up... Thank You.
We already do it in off-road/woods racing. I think it would be great for the sport and make racing more interesting to watch.
Ya if u wanna pretend to be Tomac out there and convince urself u need a 4 stroke because it's the "4 stroke era" be my guest. 2 strokes for life.
I think it would be cool to see a vintage vs new comparison. Have the lap times changed that much in the 2 stroke realm?
Ronnie Mac....
Probably not so much on the YZ as it has been pretty much stale (same damn bike) for over 10 years. Throw a Beta 250RR, a KTM (read KTM, Husky, Gas Gas...) 250 or other euro bikes that have continued development and yeah, there is a huge difference.
watch this 22 year old CR500 2 stroke leave CR450s in the dust at the Australian national series th-cam.com/video/mNjZ-hJwZ3c/w-d-xo.html
Two strokes are great for off road and on road. Bring them back.
Yep it’s a no brainer, copy Australia and introduce limits on engine mods, the rules in Australia is you can’t touch anything between the reed valve and exhaust port.
Same rules as my ex .. I didn't get alot
Bring it back. Ive had quite a few bikes. Once I got my '01 CR250, I never wanted to ride anything else. Most fun bike Ive ever ridden...fun on the track, in the woods, in the mountains....just fun everywhere.
Restricting the two stroke to race a four stroke would be stupid. It’s not the two strokes fault it’s way faster.
A late 80s/90s CR500 has more HP and torque than a brand new 450 four stroke with just a few bolt ons. Thats 20 years of development extra for the 450. Two strokes could and should rule the track, no kneecapping restrictions needed. The best riders on the best bikes win.
And the CR500 engine wasn't even special. It was a bloodthirsty monster in 85 and 86, but after that they got tired of killing people and bought things way back down, focusing more on handling and controllability. All those big-bad CR500s of the 90s were seriously detuned! The KX continued to be a complete animal of a motor, albeit typically not a great-handling bike for MX. Many discount it today because of the unfashionable air-cooling, but the old YZ490 also had a habit of winning holeshot averages in magazine shootouts. Nobody bought them, but KTM and Husky and Maico all made absolutely eye-watering 500 motors in the 80s. The CR is a great motor, not because it was special, but because it was just a plain and simple 500 that works. That's all you need to beat a 450F - just "an 500".
This isn't the first time I've heard a younger guy say he didn't like a 2stroke. Glad I grew up in the 2T era. I still pull out the 88 CR just to have fun. No matter how good a 450 can get, a 2stroke ride is just a good throwback for me.
Just an even 250 class. 95% of riders will still be faster on the 250f. Even when the bikes are hopped up I still think it’s even, most will still choose the 250f.
You know I was a big Honda rider back in the day but I have to give a huge shout out to Yamaha and KTM for keeping the 2 strokes alive. They are the only true racing machines. I’m gonna go a step further and say someone either needs to change the AMA rules or just say the hell with them and open up a new organization where all riders that race get points which gives them their number at the end of the year. The other thing is get every bike rider to join the organization so that they have have a pro season on 2 strokes only and get well paid and have the best riders. The sport has badly damaged due to 4 strokes and the fan base is down to nothing as well as not being able to reach the youth. It’s not the EPA that has caused this issue because the 2 strokes are still raced and sold. The problem is no one wants the 2 stroke being that they have to race a class up which is not fair. I will never understand how that rule came into affect. The 4 strokes were to slow so they made the 2 strokes race a class up. That should tell you everything right there. The 4 strokes are simply not good enough. Yes they are smoother but it takes away from the feel of racing and of course it’s smoother and it’s because it’s slower and a 4 stroke gas engine and not a racing engine
emx 250 champ won on a fanatic 250 2t. they are competitive just need a VERY skilled rider. Love how ping is bringing this in the limelight.
I saw JS7 ripping up his privet track on a 2-stroke a few years ago for fun. Fast as always. But he did say there was more vibration coming through the bars. Is that Arm pump and or can that be changed by rubber bushings in the steering area? It didn’t seem to Slow down James and he had the Stewart smile we all love on his face after that. But he is James and we are not. Haha
I am fortunate enough to have grown up in an era when 2 stroke technology was just beginning to advance from air cooled to liquid cooled, power valves were being introduced, dual rear shocks were being abandoned, and hydraulic disc brakes were replacing drums.
If you never rode a 2t that did not have a power valve you do not know what the term being on the pipe truly means. When I first started out there were no KIPS systems and having a mechanic that knew how to port and tune heads to get awesome power was paramount, and then having the stones to wring a machine to the gills afterwards was the difference between being lost in the pack and taking a podium spot. There was no mid-way of the road you were either committed to it and all in or you were getting eaten alive and dragging an anchor.
I am also old enough to remember when conventional forks came with accordion dirt gators on every one of my new MX bikes. I had CR 480 that kicked on the left side of the bike, I had an 83 KX 250 that had a mechanical rear brake linkage, I rode Honda, Yamaha, and Bultacos that had steel fuel tanks and were nearly the weight of a moder R6 street bike. These bikes and their power delivery characteristics required a rider to be a throttle jockey and had major learning curves they didn't have systems that compensated allowing a rider to concentrate more on track conditions than the bike itself.
I have rode some of the scariest and hairiest 2t machines known to MX history. I have to say that modern MX riders do not know how good they have it and just how easy technology advancements in both 2 and 4 stroke platforms have made it for them to be competitive, and far more comfortable in the process.
I urge anyone looking to become a better and more aggressive rider to take a blast on an early 1980s KX 250 or CR from that era. I guarantee you come back to the pits with wrist pump like never before, your heart beating out of your chest, and exhausted beyond belief.
An old school 2t will make a hardened and battle tested warrior out of you. They are quirky unpredictable beasts that challenge you as a rider every time you throw a leg over them. If you train on an old school bike regularly, and can learn how to ride the wild, when you get back on your light weight thumper you will have 3x the stamina, dive in 2x as fast, and shave 3 to 4 seconds off your former lap times. You will also be one of the wisest riders in your class because you will have a greater understanding for how to be one with the machine and be able to push it harder and longer than you ever thought possible.
Modern MX bikes are already much tamer and most likely you will be trying to find the beast within it. Then should they allow a straight 250 class you might even find yourself looking for a 2t to race simply because it is far more challenging and exhilarating 🤷♂️👨⚖️.
I race an 83 yamaha yz125 in AHRMA and vintage mx... first year for powervalve, drum brakes, etc. And yeah the most fun bike ive ever ridden by far. ( 195lbs. Race weight) Well excepd my dads 72 CZ250... that bike will shake the filling out of ur teeth, give you a heart attack and break your hip all in one twist of the throttle lol. There a video on my channel if you wanna hear that sweet vintage mx sound
@@EarthSurferUSA unfortunately you are correct about the government overreach. The individual states cower to the whim of centralized government and forget about the separation of powers. The sad thing is that there have been companies that have produced fuel injected 2T engines that far supercede the EPA emissions requirements, so then they gripe about noise pollution.
It is uptight wankers that have never enjoyed life's simpler pleasures dictating how we should enjoy our leisure hours so that it does not interrupt their golf outings or polo meets. All bureaucratic bullshit nothing more. Anything that deals with motorcycle culture is demonized and heaven forbid we have a passion for modded automobiles because, well, those are evil too. Anything fun and adventurous and adrenaline pumping is not kosher with the uptight, 3 piece suit wearing yuppies, that I call generation Xanax.
I raced professional motocross in the 60-70’s. Bultaco, Puch, Maico, Husky, Penton, Montesa, CZ, Jawa, no Japanese, all 2 strokes, all European. Harley had some overweight, underpowered 2 stroke. I raced a Montesa 125 and CZ 400. We had a mini bike class, 125 class, 250 class, and an open class. I raced the 125 class with my Montesa 125 and open class with my CZ. 2 strokes have twice the power and half the moving parts.(power stroke every crank rotation vs 2 for a 4 stroke). Simple to work on. Your clutch was your second throttle, feathering to keep the bike in its narrow powerband. Yamaha and KTM have keep 2 strokes alive. All the tech has gone into 4 strokes both with lightening the engine and bike. The YZ 250 has made 50 horsepower for years. The YZ 450 f has been gaining more horsepower/year with weight nearing the 250 2 stroke. I still love the on/off power of a 2 stroke with that smell of oil especially Blendzall oil. 4 strokes are more forgiving vs keeping the 2 stroke on the pipe. I still prefer a 2 stroke. That bang of power all at once. Just keep the throttle wide open the whole time. Fun!
Hell yes ✊🏼 I’ll go one step farther and say they should go full old school and have three classes! 125, 250, and open. Would love to see a 125 pro class racing along with some uncontrollable big bore two strokes! 👍🤔🤷♂️
I was a Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, KTM dealer in 1997 when all all received the letter’s for the OEM explaining that because of environmental concerns, especially in Ca that the 2 strokes would be phased out. I had someone at one of the OEM’s tell me it was all BS and that is was all about marketing and that mark his word 10 years from then 2 strokes would still be around. There are many in the industry that will argue that point that it was marketing but I truly believe it was and it sold thousands of bike world wide, because everyone thought their two stroke was about to obsolete and possibly outlawed. It may have sold a lot of bike initially but it has hurt the spot possibly beyond repair because of the stupid price of the bikes and the maintenance. Consider that you can buy 20 year old two stroke rebuild it and be competitive but a 10 year old racing four stroke is a POS not worth the cost of keeping it running. I will not even mention the marketing behind aluminum frames😎
Klinger giving us that great in sight, "A 125 2 stroke is slower than a 250".
Hey i really think 4 stroke are great but the cost is nuts rebuilds are nuts price wise...450s are insanely fast for anyone not racing them i see 450s in supermoto with RR sport tires an they wheely like a moto gp bike...
After selling my CRF450 and going to a YZ250 I’ll never go back, I’m slower on the two stroke but I don’t care because I’m not racing, most people would have more fun on a two stroke if they gave it a chance, and…..engine breaking sucks !
why does engine braking suck? It makes driving so much more enjoyable and easy in my opinion
I stopped riding in 04 and went into a bike shop a few years ago just to see the bikes. I was blown away by the price of 4 strokes.
They also do it in the EMX 250 class in Europe, which was won this year by a Fantic 250 2t vs the bulk of the field on 250fs.
Its proven successful everywhere it’s done elsewhere in the world and at a competitive level it’s raised the level of rider skill, one reason IMO over the last decade the Euros are dominant again outdoors is in the EMX field ( European championship rounds) is they have 65/85/125/250 2 stroke class’s and allow a open 250 class 2 or 4 stroke, yes it takes more skill but the sport is about skill always has been, this easy to ride BS has weakened the US and I have always said this a good rider on a 2 stroke is better than a good rider on a 4 stroke, it’s proven time and time again, look at results. But the modern world is lazy it’s that simple, people just aren’t the same as they once were in the heyday of the sport. Lesser riders are also happier because it makes them feel more competitive 2 strokes do require more skill and the sport should reflect this, it should expose your weaknesses.
It also makes it safer so muppets aren’t doing the dead sailor around the tracks or crossing lanes the pros go on and on, re being a better rider, one thing the other dude brought up which is 100% correct, shouldn’t that always be the goal. As a rider, I want to have fun sure, but I have also always wanted to progress and develop my skills to be better, faster, more technically sound, what IMO makes it one of the best sports is you are and can constantly learn new things.
Again been saying this for years too, you can see it at the track clearly on 4t who lacks technique and is a throttle jockey when the straight section to a jump comes into play.
One thing I personally hate today is any muppet can go buy a 450 plonk around the track, back when we had 500s few were stupid enough to ride a 500 that couldn’t ride well enough, you couldn’t just take time out on a 500 even a 250 still commands respect which it should do which makes track awareness IME opinion better, the racing is better, at a pro level I’d also like to see start assists dropped from bikes and get back to skill on the start line again it will spread the field into the first turn more and the best will get there as it should be,
I doubt AMA will do it, I doubt the 3 of the Japanese manufactures will support this and as they did in the 2090s will threaten a boycott on the AMA if they were to re introduce what should have always been..What’s best for the sport, 100% sure though KTM and Yamaha would support it. 🤘
American Scene of Motocross is lazy and lacking of skill and fun factor. The Euros now how to do it with their classes and specifications making them the fastest as they compete around the world unlike promotocross going to groomed and fast tracks. Also Supercross is the factor that we don't have good outdoors riders the only exception is Eli Tomac.
i grew up on 2strokes. ill never let them die. the smell the powerband and everything
Love the sound of a 2 stroke!
Bbbrrraaaaaaapppppppp
Great idea! I completely agree with the comparison. I have a 2001 YZ250 and a 2015 YZ250F. Both have their strengths. Each is fun in it's own way. The right rider on the 2-stroke could definitely be competitive.
I agree with Mike, 2 strokes are a lot more easier to maintain and a lot cheaper too.
And certainly more fun and also makes you a better Rider. 2 Strokes 💯
Should absolutely happen!
Straight 250 class would rock.
A straight up 250 class would be a blast to watch! I also think it would be fair playing field do to the difficulty of the 2 banger, lets see it
I think those new engine designs on the yamaha are gonna send Yamaha to the podiums because they ride so fricken good
Its way past time to allow that 250 class you mentioned, here in the US. Also, I say "who cares" if the 250 2 stroke gets modified to a point where it smashes the daylights out of the 250 4 stroke power-wise... let 'em eat. Other than keeping a 250cc displacement, no restrictions at all on how either the 2 or 4 stroke bikes get modified in this new 250 class. 4 strokes have been given an unfair displacement advantage for far too long.
Soo where do i get a new yz250 2 stroke for half the price of the 4 stroke? Couple hundred bucks isn't half the price. Or am i missing something??
I grew up riding 2 strokes and loved them then but I personally prefer 4 strokes I like engine braking, smooth linear power and the lack of vibration.
Man I LOVE that idea.. a straight 250 class. 90% for the privateers and 10% for me wanting to hear some more braaap in the mains 🤙
I have to say, a 250 2 stroke, ridden by a proper 2 stroke rider will EAT a 250 4 stroke any day of the week.
And a 250f will spank a 250t any day of the week with the right rider 😂 it's 80% rider and 20% bike
I raced 250 Yamaha and Kawasaki, when Kawasaki purpose built the 82’ 250. I raced Flattrack, and the Yamaha was easier to alter where you needed horsepower. The flywheel was a area to work on if you knew about how much it changed the characteristics of the bike. A 350 two stroke twin I had was a good teacher.riding TT’s . If it had long straights or some deep sandy corners . A flat 1/2 mile was fun to do testing , mixing different weights of flywheels . Making a big change was the only way to understand what you were looking for. Then you have A starting point.also inner flywheel opposed to outer flywheels. BIG DIFFERENCE!!
give it a try, easier than everything else, gearing jetting etc. if it’s runs right, and you don’t run out of gear on the long straight-a- ways , go to the flywhee.
Good luck..
5 seconds slower on the 2-stroke??? BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I've always said this 4-stroke era has made riders worse
I want to see a head to head (same cc) experienced 2 stroke and experienced 4 stroke rider race to the finish line! I haven't ridden a bike in years, but i grew up during the 2 st era, and MAAAAAAN they are a blast to ride! Loved the Elsinore's (125cc) as a kid!!!!!!!!
if you like girls: 2 stroke
if you like men: 4 stroke
pretty simple
I don't know man, I just like combustion...
A BUILT RACE YZ 125 & changing rear sprockets, will run circles around a STOCK YZ-250
2-stroke or 4-stroke!!!
I have done it MANY Times at several tracks I have raced at!!
Two smokers are just more better 💨
I got a 2021 YZ250x, 4 stroke's are okay love the push to start on em
Absolutely there should be all 250s allowed in one class. It's 2021, modern 450s are even more powerful than 500cc 2 strokes.
No they are not if you are comparing stock vs stock.
@@jgs1703 yes they are, and yes I am.
CRF450R: 57rwhp
th-cam.com/video/dKBrM0zgqFo/w-d-xo.html
CR500: 52rwhp
th-cam.com/video/63gZTtpnVWI/w-d-xo.html
@@StrykerV8 a 21 crf 450 puts out 55 rwhp and a kx500 puts out at least 66
@@jgs1703 wow that's awesome. Actually a crf450 puts out 300hp. See? I can say random numbers without any proof too.
@@StrykerV8 type in kaplan america dyno proof 500 is 30 percent more power than yz450. There ya go clown boy
Gee, i was 12year old racing a YZ80H, the last of the aircooled, stayed competitive for 2years. I've hasd 4 strokes but don't see them as MX bikes.
Honda will never allow a straight up 250 class. They will threaten to not race and then other manufacturers will follow.
And yet the big 4 had no problem making a 250 2stroke have to run with 450 4 strokes . Weird
Let them pull out of MX amd financially cripple themselves. They'll never do it because they stand to lose too much.
I'm 58 raced 500 2 strokes with motor mods. Love the power,sound,feel. Just the money difference alone is staggering. I feel run what you got and go cc for cc. No cheaters in the A class.
@@EarthSurferUSA Got that right. We have sold almost everything and moving onto our sailboat. Planning a 10 year loop around the plant.
Bring back 2-strokes! Smaller displacement street bikes too! The fun factor is off the charts, especially with the powerbands they're known for!
Various flywheel weights could be used on the two stroke to hook up or spin whichever is quicker. If you think it can’t hook try a 8 or 10 oz weight. I really wish web could get a true open class as well with No limit. Or at least equal displacement, a tuned 450 two stroke could definitely hang or bang with a four stroke. Two strokes almost always make more Torque given equal size. In the end it will be which bike can use the most power on a given track.
Interesting question, both are strong but ride a 2 stroke is definitely more fun and a 2 stroke has a more aggressive engine character, so yes i choose 2 stroke al day long.
After 30 years of snowmobiling I still snow checked a two stroke back in 2020! No comparison for the fun factor and weight savings,👍👍
My YZ250 is the funnest thing I have ever ridden. Now I have put alot of money into it and it runs race fuel and I can pull on 450s all day. But I'm not a racer. So I understand why people race 4 strokes cause they want to win, I just think its funny they have too neuter the 2 strokes to make it fair. 2 strokes for life
Agreed! We need to go 250 vs 250. For me I will always ride a two stroke.
Emissions were kinda/sorta a consideration when the switch to four strokes happened, ya know? Two strokes are powerful and light, yes, but they're not coming back.
250 2 stroke class at the pro level would be a game changer!!! Fan viewership would go up and not to mention the fun factor for everyone associated!
The 2 stroke sound man! The Sound!
Great review guys! I really appreciate how you guys were on both sides and not biased about your decision. I like hiw Shawn said, he did not grow up riding two-stroke but grew up in the four stroke era. I totally get it. Power delivery is completely different between the bikes, especially engine braking on a four stroke definitely a learning curve. I didn’t necessarily need to watch this video but for anybody that is going to watch it in the future, this is solid information they should know. Thanks guys, cheers!