Top 5 Poorly Designed Characters In Smash Ultimate
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ธ.ค. 2022
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In today's video I'll be talking about the 5 characters who I personally think are the worst designed Smash Ultimate.
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how are ice climbers not on this list. The way nana works is so poorly designed
I don’t agree with the little Mac being bad thing many characters have flaws they can use to their advantage and I’ve gotten a decent amount of air kills as little Mac
Another excuse is predictability but ironically he has more options when approaching spammers then most characters since everyone expects everyone else to jump over things like PK fire where as Mac’s quick dodges or super armour lets him charge right through etc
I think it would absolutely be fair to add hurtboxes to Min Min's arms. Unlike the Belmont's whip or Sephiroth's Katana, Min Min's arms are a part of her and not a weapon she holds, thus giving them a hitbox seems perfectly fair.
how the fuck were there not hurt boxes in the first place
like I get there weren’t arm hurt boxes in ARMS but it makes zero sense for Smash Ultimate considering Mewtwo’s tail hurtbox
@@JawlineJim There actually are hurtboxes on their arms in Arms. In the game, if you hit the opponent's arm while it's out, the arms clank and both are temporarily disabled.
-I main min min...it's undoubtedly my favorite thing about her because she just shits on counters (except sora) not to mention projectile counters especially because she has upsmash reflect which combined with the actual upsmash.
I think it would be fair to make them hurt boxes and thats saying a lot considering again I main her so-
@@AverageDoctor345 that just makes it so much more unreasonable
Yet mewtwo has a hurtbox on his tail and it holds him back horribly. Even though in the previous game he didn't, and he was by no means an overpowered character. Dlc privilege is real
It can be argued that Steve and kazuya are poorly designed simply cause they're over designed
mmmmm
idk if theyre overdesigned. i like the mechanics that they have, but its super clear that those mechanics, when put into the context of their kits, are fucking busted beyond belief. so nerfing those mechanics/kits should work because there isnt much thats inherently overpowered about them, except for blocks.
@@firewall5189 the only problem I see with that with that is you might get to a point where they aren’t even playing how they were intended to after so many trial and error nerfs, and may just become completely undermined by the nerfs they need.
it’s a scale, under-tuned equals bad, over-tuned is equally bad
it’s called a “balanced” character for a reason, the goal isn’t how much shit can be thrown into a character at once. Over design = trash design
@@firewall5189 I don't know. In relation to Steve, no way they could have accounted for all the tech Steve players have found. At most when you look at Day 1 Second 1 Steve Diamond is probs the most crazy thing about him. Kazuya however is like they didn't bother putting any thought into balancing him at all other than the jump squat.
I would disagree with Steve being poorly designed, I think he is well designed but poorly balanced. What I mean is his design is really interesting, but the problem is that some of his options are too strong, so I don’t think he should be redesigned, but rather they should just make some of his attacks weaker or worsen their frame data.
To compare, a character that is more fair/balanced but is still poorly designed is lucario, yeah he isn’t broken, but his design end up making him way too powerful when he has a lot of aura giving too much reward when losing or being in high% without the need of good gameplay, and too weak without aura not rewarding good gameplay as much as it should be rewarded
Honorable mention to Luigi
dishonorable mention
@@jamesperry8661 lol ur right
I was a Luigi main in smash 4 and I tried to main him in this game but he's too lame
And Incineroar
Yeah, they could've implemented a whole Luigi's Mansion style moveset, but he's still a semi Mario clone
Sometimes Ultimate favors game accuracy a little too much, rather than balancing. Which doesn't cause too many fundamental problems, but makes the already busted moves even more broken. Like, it wasn't good enough already? It also had to have a command grab? It also had to have a reflector? It also had to be literally invincible?
Them focusing on game accuracy is a step in the right direction. The real issue is that they only did so for the later additions to the series but do not go back to change older characters, so the end result would be Kazuya or something being fully accurate to his series and having a lot of good options while the likes of DK, for example, barely plays like his game at all and feels sorely limited. This is why I want the next Smash game to completely overhaul character movesets, or at least the movesets of those from 64-Brawl and some from Smash 4 and Ult if they get added again like say Byleth or Little Mac
@@Lexicon865 I guess the appeal of Smash in the first place is proper fighter representation. But yeah, the difference is so stark here.
The next game could only rework a few veterans, like Ultimate, or do the cooler thing and revamp almost everyone. But they'd have to cut the roster to do that, which I'm not against if it guarantees badly designed/repped fighters the changes they deserved way before
It's really the opposite, them not focusing on game accuracy to a T makes the moves more busted. Like Steve can't place blocks in mid air in Minecraft, which would heavily nerf his options if he had to place them on the ground to start with. Kazuya doesn't have a reflector in Tekken, in ARMS there's a rock, paper, scissors mechanic with the weight of arms determining who wins a trade, so you can cancel the arms just by throwing out your own, etc. In some cases it works like how Arsense is a comeback mechanic rather than just being able to use him at will, but in some cases it could really balance out a fighter even more
@@UltimateTS64 Was going to come in with some of this but so much yes. I don't know why it is so obvious for DLC (particularly pack 2) that they threw balance out the window in a way they would never have done with characters in the base game. That undermines the game for the long-term. Shouldn't be a design goal. And a part of that is buffing moves with things that the characters can't do in their base game. Few things are more degenerate than seeing Steve build a wall in mid-air that prevents someone from being able to reach ledge while recovering. It isn't Minecraft accurate and it is a broken, degenerate design choice.
@@UltimateTS64 and yet there would be other examples of following game accuracy to a T that would make moves more busted. It's not about accuracy. It should be about alluding to the source material but staying within the confines of a proper smash character
I love Sakurai, but man he really should have stuck around for patches for ultimate after Sora. We got one patch after Sora and that's it. Felt kinda like a slap in the face that some characters were so severely overtuned and barely got touched, most notably Steve and Kazuya imo
I don't think they should've gotten the Pichu treatment, but just some adjustments to bring down the amount 0-death potential they can do with relative ease (I think Kazuya is more balanced since he has one of, if not the, worst disadvantage states in the game but still)
Its almost like Sakurai wanted to burn down competitive smash
Yeah i get that they dont want to patch ultimate forever but they really should atleast gave it a few patches and months after the last characters to get everything more or less more balanced until they actually stopped, they just stopped too fast.
It seems like Kazuya can sometimes have difficulties against zoners and characters with range.
@@timmyb.3426 Having problems with things will probably never make up for all the chicanery
Na Kazuya should've def got the pichu treatment lol
It's wild that FP2 is so dumb that Luigi being so heavily based on fishing for grabs the entire game can't even come close to this list anymore
Hell no.
That and Palutena... existing.
@@KrazyKyle-ij9vbPost nerf Palu is fine tbh.
Some parts of the characters are quite dumb (But that can be said about most top tiers), but she has to put the work to kill since her tools are amazing but she usually relies on outplaying the opponent consistently since she doesn't really have early kill setups that aren't "dont die from upair in juggle"
Only move I really think warps her the wrong way is how binary her nair is
Luigi is bottom 10 but not bottom 5. The bottom 10 imo is (From worst to least bad) Sonic, Steve, Kazuya, Min-Min, Lucario, Little Mac, Ice Climbers, Luigi, Mii Gunner and Ganondorf, with honorable mention to Hero, Mythra and Piranha Plant. Notice that 6 of those 13 characters are DLC and I'm not fond of Sora or Banjo-Kazooie either.
Honestly Steve’s design is difficult to consider
He’s probably the character that required the single most effort to design. And for what it’s worth, he’s extremely well designed as an adaptation of Minecraft. His moveset incorporates a ton of iconic and significant Minecraft items and mechanics, which is really cool. His mining/block placing mechanics are also very well created. Attention to detail is abundant (all the different textures, items, block models, and sound effects incorporated) and the effort to make blocks function on every stage in the game is immense.
However, this character *needed* to have been kept an eye on after he was released. As Larry said, Steve having the most ambitious design in all of smash led to the most oversights, and in these ways the design of Steve fails to generate fun and fair gameplay. A lot of Steve’s moves are tuned in simply the wrong way. Anvil is a powerful killing block in Minecraft, but it’s also much more difficult to land in 3D, but the devs didn’t account for this, and that’s how it became so absurdly strong. (And that’s ignoring the privilege of having a stall-and-fall projectile move) Sakurai was worried about how functional Steve would be with his short-range attacks and low speed, which is how we got the insane frame data and damage of Steve’s normals. I’d honestly go as far as to say the damage is the bigger problem than the frame data. Steve’s wooden up air already does more damage than meta knight’s or Mythra’s, for context. Diamond up air puts him on the level of wolf. The scaling is all wrong for a character that’s capable of chaining 5+ up airs/tilts in a row consistently, and if his upair/tilt was actually tuned down, Steve combos would be a lot more interesting, because you would be absolutely required to optimize them to get decent damage. (like Sheik combos) And of course the same goes for his other tools. (bair and f-smash are very overtuned) Minecart especially was given insane utility for little reason, and shows the inexplicable yet unequivocal privilege of DLC (a base character’s projectile grab would NOT go through shield, or wouldn’t have an aerial hitbox, and definitely wouldn’t kill as early)
And of course, block exploits just weren’t considered. Even simple walls are problematic, as not enough thought was put into how other moves would interact with them, especially projectiles, which range from very useful to completely ineffectual, with the specific interactions being extremely inconsistent, unintuitive, and arbitrary. (Why can’t explosive flame go through blocks? Why do Byleth’s arrows get absorbed without damaging the block?) And of course they didn’t predict ledge planking, which they absolutely could’ve fixed…if they were paying attention
Jesus dude, this video dropped half an hour ago. How'd you type this wall of text in that time?
@@dogpilekid He is clearly a fast typer. Its not that hard to write a wall of text if you have concise and concrete thoughts on said topic and know what you want to say imo.
yeah dude he took so much effort, thats why up tilt and up air aswell as jab, sword fair and sword bair are the same moves
@@dogpilekid does it matter? Lol
@@nemil238 dude what
You didn't even mention that Kazuya's up-b doesn't put him into free fall. I think that's such a busted mechanic for all characters with that.
It's really not.
Kazuya's disadvantage is still terrible despite his up-b
@@ivrydice0954
The man has so much jank and he still needs more? Might as well buff him and just deletes characters the second the match starts.
They gutted Bayonetta in Ultimate for the sake of balance, yet were fine with adding broken characters like Kazuya as DLC. Makes perfect sense. 😒
I'm not defending Kazuya at all, but Bayonetta at her absolute prime was incredibly broken. She had one of easiest zero-to-deaths and can take a stock at any percent.
She was so good and very quickly dominated tournaments. She got so much reward for pressing buttons. Very hard to punish and deceptively large range.
I'm sure if Smash Ultimate players were in charge of just ONE balance update, they would nerf his toolkit hard.
Lmao, the SMBZ creator on a Larry Lurr video? Never thought I'd see the day.
@@Super_Smash_Dude Bayo was not that broken in 4 if you just sdi. SDI could get you out of rapid jabs in 4. bayo is actually better in ultimate after her buffs but no one is ready for this truth yet.
@@dave9515 It was incredibly difficult to SDI out of Smash 4 Bayonetta's combos. Even pro players would continuously find themselves unable to escape each time.
After the nerfs, it got easier to SDI out of her combos, but it was still quite tricky. Bayonetta players were increasingly learning how to react to pro players SDI and would still combo them for days.
Bayonetta was definitely better in Smash 4 as she could take stocks from the top consistently unlike her Smash Ultimate version (who is also has much lag now).
Broken bayo was way cooler than broken Kazuya, slowing down time to pull a sick combo on ur opponent is baddass rather than a character who just spams invincible moves till it hits then combos off of it
The design of Kazuya is cool, the way they balanced him is not. Sakurai said they buffed his damage and it's clear that they went overboard on that. Plus, giving the wave dash invincibility and the axe kick a reflecting property is not only inaccurate to Tekken, but also just stupid
You can just tell Sakurai was being biased. I doubt Kazuya was "that" weak before they decided to overtune him. And even if he was "that" weak, why give him all of that broken nonsense like invincibility on a freaking wave dash? There were so many battles people would win if it wasn't for Kazuya's absurd amount of invincible and super armor moves.
@@Spyder-Marth So a slow character with no ranged and limited combo starters in neutral and barely any OOS options and terrible disadvantage would be a "not that bad character"
With all due respect Ganondorf already tried to make that work.
For me personally I'd just just tone own the invincibility and hitstun on his moves (and maybe nerf axe kick?) instead of nerfing damage.
@@Spyder-Marth He was probably weak in free for all lmao
I think he is fine. Just seeing his tournament matches is not an utter sweep.
But I can see why he was viewed especially since he has no range. A weak jump and linear specials.
Him having I frames on his dash is just upper body invul if you low poke or counter poke you can deal with his tools
zoners can still make it hard for him to play. He is designed well for what he has to do. Especially in a game like this
At first, Little Mac's design seems to make sense. He gets a good ground game in exchange for a bad aerial game. Basically every character has such trade offs. However, in Smash and especially in Ultimate, the trade off that Mac got is not balanced at all. His aerial game is not bad, he is helpless in the air. But he doesn't even get a phenomenal ground game, it's just good.
But even if he had a near unbeatable ground game, it still wouldn't be balanced out because UItimate is such an air focused game. He basically loses an entire dimention of movement and mixups, which negatively effects his neutral, advantage, and disadvantage. He simply has less options. Even if the few options he had were the best in the game, the opponent could predict and adapt to them easier.
Another problem is that the options he has generally promote evasion as a viable strategy to beat Mac. The vast majority of characters gain something when running away from him. I would say that generally, a fighting game character who disensentivises fighting is not well designed. It's kind of the same problem as with Sonic, but flipped.
Something I just can’t understand is why he can place blocks in the air when he can’t even do that in his own game lol
Probs the same reason Shulk has Smash & Jump.
It's tools that are better suited for the genre and makes them more fun.
If you were to go down every character you'll probably find something they can't do in their games that they can do in smash.
@@ivrydice0954 There is no way that placing blocks in midair is well suited for a platform fighter. You literally see pros getting walled off from being able to recover because of this and his zero to deaths (which the designers have shown a preference to patch out of the game) are enabled because of this. Lore inaccurate and NOT well suited for Smash.
@@mattf5935 Kragg from Rivals can, and no one cares about it. The difference between him and Steve is that steve doesnt have a limit and can cheese easily. If steves blocks were easier to break from off stage and had a limit to like 3 blocks maybe he would be considered more balanced. If non grounded blocks were quicker to break and stayed out in less time it would be better.
@@mattf5935 You shouldn't be getting walled offstage if you mixup your recovery.
Learn the MU and it's gets easier trust me bro.
I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that mario can throw fireballs without his fire alt
Some other characters I’d like to add are:
Luigi: A super grab focused character that has a ridiculous combo game and one of the best combo breakers in the game.
Ganon: A character that has been constantly awful since Brawl that isn’t even accurate to his source material.
Kirby: This may seem like a weird choice but he has the same problems as Ganon, he hasn’t been good in a long time and his moveset is incredibly inaccurate to his games
Lucario: A character whose whole shtick is he wants to be losing and try to make a comeback, however in a game we’re characters kill super early he can’t take advantage of his aura that much.
I agree with most except kirby. While yes he is not good and some of his moves need serious buffs, I dont think a completely redesigned kirby with moves from his series would be good for his role in smash. Kirby is probably one of the best characters ever designed in a fighting game because of his simplicity. His role as the starter character is matched by none in the cast and is absolutely brilliant at teaching people the mechanics of the game.
@@rohantumkur7915 I think Kirby is a very unintuitive character and definitely not and easy pick. His up-b doesn't snap the ledge as opposed to the rest of the cast except Ike, Cloud and Pyra. He comboes with forward throw as opposed to down throw like most characters. Neutral special requires you to know every other neutral special in the game to effectively use it. Also most of its moveset encourages the player to cheese the opponent, instead of, you know, actually learn the mechanics of the game. Neutral, side and down specials are very commital, and normal attacks are... emmm... just kicks.
The easiest and simpliest character in the game are Pit and Dark Pit. My character Ike is very fundamental and actually can teach you the mechanics of the game, but since its hard to master, my picks for simplicity are the angels
@@Seba20901 Kirby's up-b not snapping to ledge until the peak teaches and encourages the player to actually do that.
And by that logic Kirby's copy abilities in his games, megaman's respective weapons, and lots more I'm not thinking of are all bad because you don't know how to use them before you copy it. It's not like you can't watch the player to have an idea.
I'll give you f-throw though, hell it puts him off the ground and doesn't even work under platforms (before anyone said f-throw > u-air I swear I never get it to work)
Kirby's moveset encourages cheese but him being a relatively mediocre character means that the player has to learn how and when to actually apply that in a real match against good players.
I agree that Kirby's moveset is bland and I'd appreciate the inclusion of more copy abilities but I don't see anything wrong where a lot of kick attacks, I mean, so are Mario's and fox's
HOW IN THE FUCK DOES JOBLING ESCAPE THESE FUCKING LISTS. SHE LITERALLY HAS NO FUNCTIOINAL KILL MOVES AND A SHITTY ASS GIMMICK THAT MAKES HER NORMALS EVEN WORSE!
@@justice8718 ...Jobling? Did you mean to say inkling or...?
The real issue with Steve is that he's designed like he's in CREATIVE MODE minus the infinite blocks, you can't place blocks midair in minecraft unless there's a block that touches the ground during normal gameplay, and in minecraft you can't chain jab so easily unless there's a wall because of the crazy knockback. In minecraft the TNT you use doesn't damage you less for being the one who crafted it. So he's endgame steve while everyone else is "midgame" at best. Take Sora for example, he's Kingdom 1 Sora and is missing a lot of moves that make him strong there, his magic is horribly nerfed and he's missing a bunch of options he should have if he was "late game" Sora
RIGHT?!
They fucking made Steve like he's playing fucking Creative mode
But for some reason
They got KH1 Sora
With a Sonic Blade Nerf (only 3 instead of 7)
Magic Nerf
And every other Limit move that Sora has is nonexistent
Fuck these devs tbh.
@@edgardenzel6334 and they gave kazuya that busted reflect, safe to spam and also doubles as a raw kill move and does insane shield damage but kazuya doesn't have a reflect on tekken, meanwhile Sora can't even B-reverse his nor reflect projectiles towards the opponent, granted it can ruin some people's day, take stocks very early if the recovery has a hitbox but steve can do that way easier by just placing a block next to the ledge, it's nuts. And Banjo sucks, you need to be some kind of god to make Banjo work :l
@@SanzoArts or just stop spamming projectiles
And yet majority of the characters in the game can double jump despite not having the ability to do so, also i dont think they would make that sort of change to steve because sakurai cant just take away its intentional use. If steve couldnt build in the air then it would make it almost useless besides just a defensive tool, and they would have to reprogram so much just to make it work. Sometimes i think people ask nintendo of just too much sometimes
I do see what you mea with steve being one of the few people that enter the game at his "endgame" variant unlike the others. But he doesnt really have a story line so he just worked with a lot of iconic items and weapons that were in the game.
My issue with the game is the power imbalance in punish game between characters. When a character like fox, who would otherwise be a really good character, has to read you 5 times to extend a combo, or win neutral 5 times to get a stock, but the other character has a touch of death, which as long as you dont drop it, has a 100% success rate, then that is an imbalance. Fox can not true combo to death people, he has to get reads to do so. Fox has to shark whiff punishes, kazuya doesn’t, any hit can lead to death. Not only that, but when fox has to kill with a back air that stales horribly and can struggle to kill at 120, and relies on up smash confirms in the 100s. But characters like roy have jab and side b confirms that kill at 50 by ledge, it just doesn’t seem fair.
Here I thought that I was original with my name
@@BringerofEternalNoise This comment section ain’t big enough for the both of us 🔫🤠
@@someguy535 I beg your pardon? 🔫🤠
LOL what are the chances XD
"Then just buff everyone so they can all be up to par with them" 💀
As a Luigi player I'm surprised he isnt here. You get grabbed once and your taking a huge amount of damage or just dying. You get hit once and you can deal the same amount of damage with a grab or even more, he has multiple kill confirms out the ass, you cant touch his shield wrong or your straight up dying, down b literally invalidates so many characters ways of comboing and it beats out so many moves in the game. Even interacting or fighting Luigi up close is dangerous
He’s definitely in a top 10, mostly because of his 0-Death. Everything else is arguably fine.
@@chordalharmony True. Unlike Kazuya, Luigi actually struggles if you play a zoner character like Snake, Sephiroth, Belmonts, Rosalina and Samus/ZSS. Those characters give him a lot of trouble so there is definitely counterplay
FP2 is that absurd
As a Kazuya secondary I can safely say he doesn't need the invincibility on everything. Downgrading it to super armor or subtractive armor (yoshi jump but less extreme) would make sense. (Why have it in the first place? Because he's a cool character by personality and casuals using the character need something to carry them)
Also as a nice touch Sakurai could've put super armor on only the moves that had it in Tekken as well.
Na no super armor, them casuals can suck it
References. They're referencing Tekken.
3 out of the top 5 being fp2 characters makes me feel so validated
*super armor*
Ok, he is a DLC. He’s bound to have something good.
*Intangibility*
Ok, I think super armor was enough, but I’m ok with this.
*Reflector*
Doesn’t look too fast, but idk why he has one.
*Command dash with I frames*
Ok, an intangible movement thingy. I think this is enough.
*Tough guy*
Wait, what? Isn’t that Bowser’s unique thing?
*A move that activates 2% of smash 64 hitstun’s true power*
Wait, Sakurai please st-
*Rage mode that strengthens attacks*
I can’t look anymore!
*Powers up his command grab, that does indeed have armor*
I’m quaking in my boots rn!
(The worst part is I probably missed some things lol)
you forgot a godlike combo-tree on top of all this shit, it ain't just *1 Zero to Death combo* but multiple
Tough guy does like nothing to kazuya compared to Bowser
This is hilarious
The worst part of this game is how much cheese so many characters have/how low-effort so many of them feel. Everyone talks about how "balanced" the game is, but tbh I'd rather have a less balanced game when the way it's balanced is to have so many characters feel so gimmicky.
It seems like when designing the DLC, especially pack 2, they just got too excited giving great things to the characters but barely any weaknesses to compensate.
“Let’s make the best zoner in the game but also give her good close range moves and a reflector”
“Let’s make the best character at 0 to deaths but also make him a heavyweight and give him a command grab that kills”
If Pichu was a DLC character they would probably make him a middle weight for instance.
There's also the fact Steve can ledge hog people, a mechanic that was taken away in Smash 4.
Since when was that found?
@@cyclical4662 What I mean is that he can place blocks on the ledge as people are going to recover, meaning he can make someone not grab the in the same way you could edge hogging. Of course this could be an instance of someone recovering wrong. But a friend of mine showed me in a match
@@Surgemaster2012 That's not how ledge hogging works lmao.
@@ivrydice0954 I'm just repeating what I was told. lol
@@ivrydice0954 It isn't ledge hogging but he can block people from being able to recover by walling off the ledge with blocks placed in midair in a way that is non-canonical to Minecraft. That isn't good design.
I was expecting more along the lines of ganon and lucario not making any sense to be made like they were and being poorly designed. But I do agree with these 5 being awful too.
I think Ganon and Lucario could be fixed with some number and frame data changes. Little Mac would not have this benefit, because he is supposed to be bad in the air. Same with Sonic - sure, you could give him worse frame data and / or less damage output, but that would not help the core issue and the matches would just drag out even more.
I’ve played lucario for a day now and just nerf aura and buff base and he would be much better to play as and against
@@kyx5631 i cannot see sonic having more framedata on his moves given that he is supposed to be a "fast rushdown character"
Honestly Little Mac having bad aerials / air stuff isn't even what makes him poorly designed IMO. Much like other characters in this list he is definitely overtuned in at least one aspect (ground stuff) and the optimal way to beat him requires playing the game in a singular and very boring way with most of the cast (camping platforms). What links all these characters is they're just not really fun to fight.
I wouldn't even call his ground game overtuned, it's just very good. But I would not find it overwhelming.
I think lucario has to be reworked. Its just cheesing people at 150%.
Yeah and in the pokemon games he is this sweeping allrounder that does't use anything similar to smash's aura mechanic. Lucario does need a rework thats more faithful to his actual pokemon which is a cool martial artist.
@@dave9515 Yeah it is really silly that he has double rage mechanics. They probably were going for more of a movie esk Lucario I guess. They definitely could have done something less zonery by having like a Mythra side-b esk close combat move, a bone rush move, or just straight up have aura enhance his existing special moves through manual means instead. But to be fair it’s not like his move set isn’t based on Pokémon moves he actually learns in game. Reworking the Aura mechanic could really do the trick and maybe also double team.
@@bradbrad28 I think a great lucario rework would be taking inspiration from arya's marking mechanic in multiversus. Allow lucario to mark opponents and if they are marked he can do crazy reset combos with his espeed recovery. Basically make him more like his pm counterpart but make his gameplay style looped around getting up close and personal and taking advantage of an aura reset gimmick. I think that could be pretty cool but i would love more of his moves to be used like making his down b close combat and not a counter and side b bone rush. Espeed as a recovery is fine and aura sphere as neutral b makes sense.
Assuming you love to 150%.
Fun fact: Steve can mine his own anvil to get materials back while standing on it
Why did they stop patching Ultimate so soon? That was one of the biggest mistakes the Ultimate team has made.
At least Pythra is on good terms with Larry Lurr.
The Namco rep from Pass #2 should have been Yoshimitsu, who'd honourably decide to fight fair and use a conventional Smash moveset rather than all his moves from his home games. And he'd rep two series at the same time.
Nah. There’s nothing wrong with it being Kazuya. The problem is the absurd overtunning they did to him.
@@AarturoSc Yoshimitsu is also way more unique compared to the four normal fighting game characters we did get. Two blonde American meatheads and two stern Japanese men out of all the characters that they could have.
I'd have replaced Ken and Kazuya with Chun Li and Yoshimitsu.
@KaptainMorganWo Ken was only in because he was a clone and would be easy to develop. Chun Li wouldn't replace him since she'd be a fully unique character. If anyone else were to take his place, it would have to be another shoto like Akuma
@@cuttsthecat6331 That's assuming she'd be in the same spot in the game as Ken.
I'd have lived without Plant or one of the less popular DLC characters to have Chun instead.
@@KAPTAINmORGANnWo4eva This isn’t Nintendo vs. Street Fighter. The guest characters are spread more evenly and only have more than one rep when is an echo fighter. It’s not a matter of “removing Plant” or characters you think nobody cares to have more time. Otherwise they would have went with Simon and Alucard as they originally wanted.
Second, about Yoshimitsu, not only is he less important to the fact overall story of Tekken than the Mishima, “representing 2 universes” is such an empty statement. The fans would care more about the characters themselves than the number of things they represent.
I think my pick would be Hero, because of the accessibility barrier created by their menuing. Because of the lack of any icons or other means of telling what the spells are, if you don’t know how to read the language of the setup you’re at, you won’t be able to tell what the Hero is doing, and inaccessibility is some of the worst design in my eyes.
Tbh I used to have a problem with that but someone brought up a great point, you're rewarded for learning how to read the language, which is a life skill. I don't necessarily know if the language barrier is a bad or acceptable thing but I could see arguments for either side
@@igirjei3717 it's a fighting game, not duolingo.
@@dsyy90210 I'm aware, whether or not someone thinks hero should be banned for it, there are at least some arguments both for and against the ban
@@igirjei3717 i def dont think he should be banned, i just think it would've been good to provide some kind of symbols so his menu options are more immediately and universally identifiable
@@dsyy90210 I think that's fair yeah, I don't really see a reason why they shouldn't have other than that *maybe* it wouldn't look 100% authentic to DQ11
I think Steve has actually some of the best and most interesting character design in the game, he's just extremely overturned. If he got some simple stat changes (diamond, minecart, anvil), he would be a great character.
Facts, he's one of the coolest characters in the game but since he's too OP it makes him lame
Nerfs would have been fine but I don't think he's any more overtuned than the rest of top 10
@@nathanlevesque7812 hes easily the best character in the game
@@youtubeyt5694 contentious at best
@@nathanlevesque7812 bro esam just admitted that hes better than pikachu.
Idk how many people know this but kazuyas passive armor is called tough body
I thought it was tough guy
@@GravityRaider Bowsers armor is called tough guy. Ig they didn't want to reuse the name so they called Kazuyas armor tough body instead
@@bergamothecrusher9713 Ahhh gotcha, ty.
@@GravityRaider NP I enjoy giving out this random info I find in the tip section on the game
Steve and Kazuya aren’t really “poorly” designed characters rather “overwhelming” designed ones. They simply have way too much positives and gimmicks that make their flaws overshadowed by their positives. I mean, Steve can really do practically anything in this game, despite having combos so easy. And Kazuya? My guy you don’t even have a reflector in tekken, why the hell do you have the strongest one in smash?
I mean, isn't an "overwhelming" character just another type of poorly designed character, a characters strengths massively outweighing their weaknesses is poor design
@@lancestriker0111 in a way yeah. I made that comment a year ago. I wasn’t really too knowledgeable about smash. All this time now I can say that yeah Steve and Kazuya aren’t designed well.
I remember complaining that Kazuya is gonna break the game as soon as he was released, and so many people were just like "jUuSt LeArN tHe MaTcHuP!".
It's not just about learning the matchup, it's about being able to play the damn game correctly. It's pretty mindblowing that Minmin, Steve and Kazuya are STILL not banned...
The only character that should be banned is Steve. With Kazuya’s ewgf just mix up your di, and he can’t do the combo. With Steve though, that does nothing. The combos are always guaranteed.
Banning Kazuya or Minmin doesn't make sense as they don't have the results to justify it. 2 players (Riddles and Tea) doing well on Kazuya isn't ban worthy, and 1 player (Protobanham) doing well on MinMin also isn't ban worthy at all
The difference is that Kazuya is extremely hard to master and he can be quite inconsistent with his inputs since they can be easily confused. But he also is extremely easy to edgeguard, you can make Rage run out, he struggles against fast projectiles and sword users and he has the absolute worst disadvantage in the game
Thats cuz top players know the matchup
@@Pichulover69 he can react to your di. ewgf is very generous with hitstun.
damn its crazy how the top 3 of this list are all FP2,, its almost like they are unhealthy for the game and we are better off deleting them
I remember playing online with Steve and got matched with a kazuya, an a walk off stage
I think we all know what happened and now I fear karma will strike me one day
Lmao, one day
I feel like Steve is gonna get absolutely neutered in the next game
Hopefully to non-existency
Doubt he will be in the next one
I can understand why people think Mac is poorly designed from the standpoint of "his archetype does not fit the game" but I still don't think that's why he's poorly designed. He's designed poorly because they didn't commit to his archetype. Rekzius, a decently well known Mac main from the Smash 4 days made a great video in detail on it: th-cam.com/video/-WctX_AwTCs/w-d-xo.html
But basically, his ground game is not good enough to compensate for his horrible air game. They even backpedaled on this in Ultimate by nerfing his down tilt into oblivion, where it went from arguably the best combo starter in the game to just an ok combo starter. He has very few consistent kill confirms and KO Punch is an incredibly underwhelming comeback tool because you can hardly ever combo into it.
Mac reminds me of Iron Fist from Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3. In UMVC3, Iron Fist is also a character that has a very strong ground game, but virtually no presence in the air. Marvel is a game dominated by high mobility characters like Magento, Morrigan, Doom, etc. who are are primarily air based. Air dashes open up opportunities for pressure and escape, air projectiles can make camping and timer scams viable, enhanced aerial movesets allow for better conversions off of stray hits, etc. The biggest difference I see in the communities for Smash and MVC3 is that nobody thinks Iron Fist is designed poorly, he just sucks. Both characters can still make waves in their respective games, but are both ground based characters in a game dominated by aerial mobility.
It's just strange to me. I get that Mac sucks and he is designed to not have one of the most important things a Smash character can have, but Iron Fist is in the exact same boat and people love him and don't think any less of him from a design standpoint.
i see your point and respect the take, but hard disagree for me. im more inclined to agree with peanut's opinion, who pointed out that mac's ground game being busted is the reason why people are so utterly incentivized to camp him out instead of approach and potentially get sent straight to the spirit world in two hits. making his ground game even better would just encourage even more of this type of interaction imo, which i really dont want to see.
so in my (admittedly very unprofessional) eyes:
- nerf KO punch
- buff some of mac's normals. maybe give him some more combo game
- buff mac's air game a little. give him back side b if he gets hit, extend the range of his aerials a smidge, since theyre utterly pathetic rn, nothing too drastic
- increase mac's jump height a little so that its easier for him to rush down opponents on plats
@@firewall5189 Mac's ground game isn't busted so I don't understand where peanut's point comes from. It's strong, yes, and can be scary to deal with, but then again, every competent character has a strong advantage state that's scary to deal with. Even then, in the transition to Ultimate, his advantage state got neutered to where every hit essentially leads to a tech chase/juggle situation, which isn't inherently bad, but it's from almost purely stray hits instead of reliable combos from safe starters. Mac is not the only character who people camp, and at top level, we see many characters and players use camping effectively. Like it or not, camping is part of the game and an integral part of almost every fighting game, and Mac is not the only offender to this.
Idk I think I'd have less of a problem with his design if his aerials were good instead of him having outprioritizing tilts and smashes with super armor. Him being a boxer that hits really hard and moves really quickly is accurate, but I don't see why he would have noodle arms when his feet aren't glued to the ground.
Also KO punch is cool but death at 20%? Really?
@@igirjei3717 I agree to an extent but that's his whole design philosophy. What I hate is how his grab game is awful despite being a ground based character. I understand why people don't like him, but saying his design is bad is a bit baffling to me.
KO Punch only kills that early against the lightest characters. It also has exactly one semi-reliable confirm into it, a full second of end lag, goes away from any move that sends into tumble, and shitty armor. It's not a good comeback mechanic.
@@brendanhughes5679 Eh when you have it on a character as fast as mac + armor I'd say it's pretty decent, but incredible, but not bad.
And yeah I get the point is that he's good on the ground and terrible in the air, in that sense they got what they wanted, I just think as far as mac the character, it's weird
“Faithful adaptation” doesn’t mean good design. Period. By that logic if you put a DBZ character in Smash or any other game and gave them all the strength, speed and planet destroying attacks they have on the show/manga, that would be considered “good design” even if the rest of the cast had no way to deal with all of that. If a character has a toolkit that the rest of the cast can’t effectively deal with then that character is badly designed, “faithful adaptation” or otherwise. Why do players justify shitty designs so much?😩
It’s not so black and white dude
Not justifying bad design, it’s called giving a nuanced or comprehensive criticism
@@KevSB07 Actually it is for the most part. Adding in elements that were foreign to a game that the rest of the roster weren’t equipped to handle is going to cause problems, Steve and Smash 4 Bayo are prime examples. (Not implying Steve is Smash 4 Bayo levels of busted)
@@KevSB07 Giving nuanced criticism is fine, problem is when some players come to the conclusion after giving their nuanced criticism that X character is fine and isn’t problematic despite results and blatant advantages in comparison to the rest of the cast is where the issues come in.
@@riotron1026 hence why I don’t claim Steve is a great design. Im very adamant that his interpretation and adaptation are great on a surface level, but the individual components of his kit are overtuned and important interactions with other characters/how he would reasonably fight and be fought werent given enough thought.
Every time someone rants about Kazuya I learn something new that is broken about him. Smh, why did they do this?
Kazuya is designed by the guys who helped develop smash. He has earned the spot. Sakurai just went way overboard with this one just because he owed them to the bandai namco team.
@@Yokai_Yuri nah, its simpler than that, competitive balance and fairness isnt really at the top of their priorities, they make sure the characters arent busted to the majority of the players or dont have any game breaking bugs (like blocks causing you to fell through the stage).
On paper Vs in practice are very different things
Cuz an accurate Tekken character in smash is busted. Not bias
@@mr.monkey354 especially the Mishima´s
I think Palutena is poorly designed because my friend Mark keeps beating me with her!! all Mark does is spam n-air and b-air!!!
let mark know hes a pussy. even if he still beats you, at least youll be right :)))
Fighter Pass 2 and its consequences were disastrous for the Smash Ultimate metagame.
1:24 alternatively, you could consider his design *conceptually* fantastic, because it puts into the mechanics themselves the underdog essence of the character!
0:00-0:03 "I wanna thank EDP for sending me these controllers."
I don't think steve is badly designed, he's more overturned, besides sakurai probably didn't expect steve players to play as toxic as they ended up playing when he was designing steve
A small change that I think would go a long way would be to increase the knockback for his up tilt for everything other than wood and gold. It would add an actual downside to upgrading to diamond since it would hurt his low percent combo game. Hopefully encouraging less camping from steve players.
I knew Kazuya never getting properly patched post-release was a bad sign.
No one talking about how Joker is badly designed. If you're going to make him ridiculously strong with Arsene, he shouldn't be as good as he is in base
No one is talking about Joker because base Joker is diet Sheik with a busted neutral-b.
They should add Waluigi to the game, the certified Steve and Kazuya killer.
I'm a for one completely for tournaments banning DLC's, like low tier DLC's fine, but all the regular top tier DLC are just annoying and if they were removed, I wouldn't shed a tear
But that would leave basegame top tiers which would then need to be banned. After banning them the tier list would shift making more top tiers. We would have to keep banning until one was left. Then it would be balanced.
I can't believe Luigi didn't make it on here
Luigi kinda stops being as good when he gets rage or your at a higher percent. Also I personally believe it’s easy not to get grabbed by him.
From a game developer’s perspective, Kazuya is very poorly designed. Not because of his kill power, not because of his combo game, but because of how much he rewards tryhards.
Think about it: Ultimate is meant to bridge the gap between competitive and casual players, but Kazuya rewards competitive players so much that he creates the biggest divide between the two audiences in the entire game.
I do think Kazuya is more poorly design than Steve. Steve just brought something new that Smash never had before. Kazuya being the forth FGC character in Smash does not have a lot of executions like in Tekken. He just have inputs and moves from Tekken. I still think that the EWGF should have been a just frame input like in Tekken instead of pressing down forward and A at the same time. Anybody can get good using that input while just frame takes some practice to get those perfect inputs. He's not much of a execution heavy like in Tekken. It's just one input that you have to get good using. Otherwise, playing basic without EWGF is the easy part. Not the case in Tekken. You don't have to think what moves to use. You just do it and you most likely will get the kill. I wanted Kazuya or Jin in smash, and I think Kazuya should have been better than this.
The issue with Kazuya is that as egregiously overtuned as he is (seriously, it feels like the devs just decided to give him every known char specific gimmick in the game, even corrin stun on electric) the common retort from the Kazuya player base is that "the character is hard to play" and while I agree, he's probably one of the hardest if not thr hardest character to play at top level at least amongst the higher echelon of characters (ie difficulty in execution, not a char being low tier/weak) I'm sure that literally anyone can win at the local level by spending a couple of hours learning how to down throw electric into ZTD against opponents who aren't that good at mixing up DI. Plus his sheer volatility means that even in high to top level sets players that didn't nessicarily deserve to win came out on top + upsets gallore
Also didn't talk about it much but gates of hell straight up invalidates half the cast and especially those with poor recovery not to mention it's practically guaranteed out of an electric combo provided you end up facing the side closer to the blast zone when you finish the combo
Like yeah, if you want to wave dash like riddles, have fun spending 6 months in training mode practicing it every day, but the skill floor for the character is indeed hilariously low for the amount of output you get using that minimal amount of knowledge with the character
It reminds me of the earlier Steve days online where the "so I minecart low or high?" Flowchart unironically won games on its own
At that point I would say why are you playing a platform fighter and go play Tekken.
Never was a fan of it's hard therefore if it can actually cause concerns for the game then it's a ok.
Yea it's a stupid excuse, it's not even a hard character in terms of the actual game play itself, it's just the inputs the character has, u dont need to actually get better at smash to get good with Kazuya, u dont need to learn how to read ur opponent or learn spacing, it's just learning inputs, and u can throw all of the other games skills out of the window. It's just playing a rhythm game.
I never understand why Kazuya has a reflect and can phase through projectiles. Like pick one.
Because he does in tekken 7 2d characters projectiles
I have to agree, Kazuya is broken. I don't think he's Sm4sh Bayo broken but he's broken nonetheless.
I think its interesting that in spite of everything Kazuya has, he's still not the best character in the game. Just goes to show how far you need to push the heavyweight archetype to make them top tier.
I think little Mac is perfect, if he wasn’t so “low tier” the game wouldn’t be as interesting. There are literally players who push his limits to have a air game. Little Mac’s greatest flaw is what makes him the most rewarding character to play.
Most of the criticisms of little Mac kind of miss the point. He has to have a bad air game to be what he is. The design of the character is meant to test the limits of how strong you can make a character that is only allowed to be strong on the ground. He was never supposed to be a viable character, and if he was everyone would hate him. He would be Kazuya.
LITTLE MAC
Sonic
Belmonts
Lucario
Ganon
Omg 2 right so far!!!
Def agree about kazuya. I spent about an hour learning the wind god first combos and absolutely wrecked with him. There were some kinda tough match ups and it is difficult to land sometimes but it felt like throwing the game on easy mode. If I touched you, that was stock. He is really made so easy by utilizing his completely unique knockback and hitstun. I would like to extend that there are plenty of playable characters in this game. Why is it that tournaments are still not banning problem characters. Steve, kazuya, and min min have severely limited the character pool that used to come to tournaments. Sorry Incineroars your chance at tourney is gone.
Does your opponent mix up their di? Cause Kazuya’s death combos don’t work if your opponent knows what they’re doing.
@@Pichulover69 yeah they do, they simply need to dash in, short hop, auto track nair and the combo continues
@@Pichulover69 care to explain how people are still getting 0 - death by Riddles at tournament level? They're all veteran players that know what they are doing. His combos still work with optimal DI
@@TyphonCH No they don't. Even Riddles agrees that most top players are not DI'ing Kazuya optimally.
@@janmarcoperezbatres2203 I am a kazuya main that has been playing him since release and I hate to say, but you're using old news. Before electric into dash was picked up, you could make it a 50/50 with DI. However, dashing after electric covers both DI in and out, meaning regardless of how you DI, the combo continues.
i dont know how you can show steve literally pushing another character across the entire stage with the same attack comboing into itself and not mention it verbally.
This is essentially a list of the characters I hate the most
As a casual player nothing breaks your spirit like someone who got good with Kazuya 0 to deaths and looks like they aren’t even playing the same game anymore
Almost a well designed character but aegis is a contender. They have a fun idea with having to use pyra to kill for the most part, and both characters having explorable recoveries is great as a balancing act. But foresight is way to strong on mythra as is some of her frame data, and pyra's up b kills too early, and her range and hits on shield are way too good. Touching on those and removing foresight (maybe make it an aesthetic thing only) would make her a very fun to both play as and against.
Pyra/Mythra are horribly designed in every facet
@@EmperorPenguin1217 Not really, they are strong but have exploitable recoveries, a concept like that makes them healthy as a high tier because they have more risk to losing than the average ultimate character. The issue is that they are too strong for those weaknesses to matter currently, so making minor adjustments (and getting rid of foresight) would make them well balanced.
Foresight and up B are not bad enough to make them badly designed. Not to mention that, unlike the characters on the list, Aegis has never really done anything in competitive Smash. Little Mac, in spite of how good Peanut is, just can't really work in competitive. Sonix, Riddles, Protobanham, and Acola/Onin have repeatedly defeated the best players in the world. Aegis, on the other hand, only seemed to hold back otherwise great players. We all know how bad Leo does with Aegis (except for the Sonic matchup), and Sparg0 never won anything until he stopped playing them.
Everyone loves to whine about how broken they are, even the pros, but nobody really seems to be able to make them work. Sure, you can win games and make it fairly far sometimes, but playing Aegis in competitive Smash seems to be a death sentence at some point. People grossly underestimate how exploitable their recovery (and in general disadvantage) is. Not to mention that once the opponent is at kill percentage, you either have to win neutral with Pyra, which is pretty rough, or win it with Mythra and THEN try to edge guard with Pyra or something, adding an extra step to get a KO when top characters never do.
Kazuya made me wish comeback mechanics had a toggle.
I’m guessing little Mac, Ganon, min min, sonic, maybe hero or olimar
Edit: 3/5 not too shabby if I do say so myself, I will say kazuya and Steve are just excessively overtumed rather than badly designed but a sensible list, I will say all these characters are annoying af
I'd like to point out that Luigi is horribly designed. I've been saying since release that they gimped his movement and recovery options WAAY too hard. Since melee they've just been directly and indirectly neutering his movement so all we're left with now is remnants of a character that has failed to adapt to the mechanics of newer entries. From Melee to Brawl he lost wave-dashing, from Brawl to Smash 4 he got a decrease in vertical gain from cyclone and decreased aerial drift after Up-B. And in Ultimate, his traction is SUPER high and Cyclone has lost all movement and recovery utility. To make Luigi fun again, you literally just need to give him his Melee Wave dash back or allow Cyclone to rise and slide across the ground quickly so he'll have some options against speedy characters or zoners. With his current mobility, Luigi's special moves also have way too niche applications. Fireball has way too much ending lag for Luigi's slow ground and air speed, green missile has an absurd amount of ending lag and a terrible hitbox which combined with the nerfed Super jump punch and Cyclone makes his recovery extremely predictable.
But throughout all of Ultimate's life there has been an anti-Luigi agenda that insists Luigi has a "broken combo" so he doesn't need buffs to anything else. While failing to acknowledge that's his ONLY option, so if you don't know the combo as Luigi, the character barely functions, even casually.
Kaz is what happens when you are too faithful to the source material. This has always been Sakurai's flaw. He is more concern about being faithful than making a good design character. He isn't a bad guy but I'm happy to see we are getting someone else for the next Smash game.
fast forward, the next smash director makes the game even more busted. .
Kazuya doesn't have invul in Tekken or a Reflector or an unblockable rage drive.
Don't get it twisted Sakurai took a lot of creative liberties.
@@ivrydice0954 I can´t see Namco complaining about it.
So you want Smash to be a generic fighting game?
Bruh wtf were the creators on when they made kazuya like wtf..
A character with that much armor, that much damage, that much hit stun, also needed an invincible dash, an instant kill revenge mechanic, an up-b out of shield that kills off the top, the most egregious throw angle in the game, pretty good recovery, AND a reflector? Makes sense.
DLC money
Answer: They wanted to capture the essence of Tekken
Honorable mentions to Luigi and Mr. Game & Watch, 2 braindead characters.............especially online
EDIT: also Ganondorf is also the 2nd worst character..............after Little Mac since there's only so much you can so with him, he is fun tho
"Top 5 Poorly Designed Characters In Ultimate" *proceeds to name every character that is good in the meta outside of Little Mac*
holy shit lol and people say this game has a good competitive scene
Good analysis! I definitely agree! I'd argue that pretty much all the DLC characters are obnoxious to fight against. Most (if not all) have some annoying gimmick or design choice that can just make it a chore to fight them.
There's a really simple way to nerf Kazuya: make the Electric an unbufferable just-frame launcher like it is in Tekken since Tekken 4. That alone will make Kazuya much harder to play and nerf his 0-death combos. Sure, Kazuya will still have his touch of death combos, but players will have to work much harder to get them. That's just how he plays in Tekken - burst your fingers to obtain max rewards from him.
I think he should have cool down on electric, making it one electric and probably like 3.5 seconds before another one can land . and his comeback mechanic removed or at least make it 25 percent or one attempt and he loses it like limit. He doesn’t even need it tbh.
They did a mistake not at least toning down Kazuya and Steve before the game would stop receiving updates. Once you know how to master Kazuya hes unstoppable
I'd say that + removing the invuln on the lower body would be fine
@@Pj_901 lol you didn't play tekken before? Doing that to the ewgf would be horrible
I would prefer to just putting less frames for his ewgf
Little mac isn't that poorly designed imo. I feel like the idea to make a fighter that really only stays on the ground in a platform fighter is hard enough to pull of that their interpretation was pretty acceptable.
Surprised Incineroar didn't make it on the list just given the polarity between his speed and power. They front loaded too much into Revenge's comeback factor, when they could have toned it down and make him a combo centric, super heavyweight. That would have been cool
Really surprised to not see Luigi on the list. Regardless, amazing explanations in the video!
It's very likely because he is just a worse and far more balanced Kazuya, with a horrible disadvantage and terrible MU spread, with a very linear playstyle and bad recovery, and being the 2nd slowest character in the game, which leads to very easy counterplay.
Just pick up Min Min, Samus and the Belmonts and you will have the freest win of your life.
Though i do agree that Luigi's design in this game is pretty bad, its nowhere top 5 or even 10, that said I do think Luigi needs a complete overhaul which focuses more into his Luigi's mansion 3 moveset/design, that usses Poltergust G-00 more than just a grab and zair.
@@TwinGamer64 Meanwhile Luugi is winning major tournaments in Europe
@@SomeoneWeird-vx5jx I mean...does that change anything?
He is still worse Kazuya, who has a horrible disadvantage, abysmal recovery and is slow as sin, who gets easily counterpicked.
He just has a broken advantage stage (still worse than Kazuya's)
@@TwinGamer64 *slow as a sin in the air
I mean you make Luigi sound terrible but even since the beginning of ultimate Luigi has had some good tournament results (mostly from a player who is banned now). Kazuya may have better results now but regardless Luigi is still a good high tier. You can’t just pick up a character and start beating a good Luigi player, there is counter play of course, but this character ain’t little Mac
@@SomeoneWeird-vx5jx thats bc Luugi himself drinks 100 coffees before every set,, kids insane
Here’s how I’d try to fix each of those characters.
Little Mac and Sonic need redesigns, but if I were to try to keep them as close as possible to what we have, here’s what I’d do.
For Little Mac, I’d simply just make his ground normals safer, and give him side b back after getting hit. Then make KO punch significantly weaker. This would probably help a bit.
Sonic, I’d try giving him down tilt up air at lower percents so he has some incentive to be up close, and change spin dash to send straight up with higher base knockback (but lower knockback growth) so that it CAN’T combo. This would at least encourage him to approach at some point.
Min Min is a fairly simple one. Hurtboxes on arms, up smash is frame 10. Now her OoS is weakened, and there’s risk to throwing arms. Maybe have Ram Ram send more up to make it less of a war crime at ledge though.
Steve is the one I’ve thought about the most: nerf up tilt, then up tilt, then up tilt (that move is the biggest war crime in his kit). Then make minecart slower to start up and make it a hit grab instead of a command grab. Honestly I think this would make him fine.
Kazuya is the combo heavy, so why did they let him keep the raw damage? Nerf his combo moves to do significantly less damage so he can keep the zero to death, but it requires a lot more stage and much more of an execution test. Now he might have to win neutral more than once a stock. Then make jumping back kick really safe on shield so it’s a good disengagement tool.
That’s a smart way to deal with Kazuya
Personally I think Steve’s weapon tiers should be rescaled. I think going from wood to Diamond should be like the difference between bronze and levin sword, with wood being nearly useless and Diamond being strong but not excessively
@@KevSB07 I’m definitely not opposed to that Steve change, I’ll be honest
@@KevSB07 yes but that would incentivize camping for tools even more
@@BringerofEternalNoise well it’s not like that’s Steve’s only issue lol
@@KevSB07 true
Two words: Ganon. Dorf.
I also want to talk about DK. What's DK best known for? Throwing barrels. How many moves involve a barrel? Zero.
Dk never throw barrels like a primary move in any game
Cranky Kong is the barrel thrower from the original DK not the DK in smash.
@@ABC-ik9vj Throwing Barrels is literally the first thing DK does in the first game he's in lol.
@@deltastory4011 which one
@@ABC-ik9vj The original Arcade game. And even if you say that's not actually DK from Smash, barrels are a staple of the Country series, and at the very least more associated with DK than pretty much any of his current specials.
You can say what you want about Kazuya, how annoying he is to fight or how little counterplay you think you have when fighting him, but you have to hand it to Kazuya, he's not an easy character. I'd go as far to say that he's among the hardest characters in the entire game, and while yes he can consistently 0-death a lot of the cast, Kazuya is a character that can not be played viably unless you have a great deal of knowledge on both his, and other character's individual attributes like weight, fall speed, air speed, etc. He can't just throw out whatever he wants during a combo, despite what some people might think.
If you use a move that sends the opponent too high (which can include raw EWGF) it's more than possible for that character to act out of hitstun before Kazuya can Nair them into the ground for a follow up, which is a very common occurrence given his egregious jump-squat and jump height. EWGF also doesn't get full hitstun against characters who are in tumble, so there's a lot of true follow ups that he can't get because opponents in tumble can act even FASTER out of EWGF's stun.
He also can't true crumble characters with D-god or Side-B unless they're at least 60%, but again, that number greatly varies depending on the character you're fighting, and some characters can't reliably be true crumbled at all.
If you throw out a stature smash against a character that can jump a single frame faster from Nair than other characters, they won't get tripped from the attack, and you know what happens then? Kazuya get's punished for it because the move is laggy as hell, as are the vast majority of his moves.
Now yes he is harder to projectile spam, but you have to keep in mind that it takes a x2 tap forward for the reflector to even come out, so unless a Kazuya has godlike reaction skills, it's likely their anticipation of a strong projectile being thrown at them is due to habits from the opposing projectile thrower. It's YOUR fault for throwing a strong projectile against Kazuya and getting YOUR projectile reflected back at you, and if you're gonna throw a projectile at him, do it while he's in the air where he can't reflect, not on the ground where he can!
Also I get how it may be annoying since he has so much armor and intangibility on so many of his moves, but because his aerials so are abysmal when not being combod into, he'd probably be one of the worst characters in the game without it. Think about it, you take a character that has the potential to absolutely destroy people, but he's missing a huge chunk of his whole moveset with nothing to make up for it. He would basically be Little Mac, but with command inputs. You make a character stronger in one field, and make them weaker in another, but the difference for Mac is he has nothing to make up for his weak air game. That's not to say Kazuya's air's are unusable, but outside of comboing, they're absolute garbage. His D-air is a stomp attack, which is INSANELY punishable on shield, same goes for every other stomp in the game like Ridley, Sheik and Banjo for example. If he's in disadvantage in the air, he can't really do much but just take it. D-air in disadvantage is an obvious punish, and all his other moves don't hit directly below him otherwise. He has no good way of countering people below him while getting juggled, which further plays into his weakness in the air.
I'm not gonna sit here and say the annoyance against Kazuya is unjustified, although I do secondary him and I'm trying not to seem bias here. The fact is though that Kazuya's risk-vs-reward is pretty reasonably balanced, it's just that the highs are REALLY high, and the lows are REALLY low. People just tend to notice the highs more because they're the most prominent part of a character's move-set, it's what makes them the most interesting.
You may think that there's little counterplay to fighting Kazuya, but trust me, there's much more than you think. When you truly understand what Kazuya's game-plan is, and how his moves actually synergize with his kit, you'll be able to read Kazuya like a book since he's one of the most predictable characters in the game. Everyone knows how samey his T-O-D's are, but THAT'S where the counterplay lies. Looking at his moveset in a vacuum might make him seem busted or badly designed, but characters with even a SINGLE attribute working against them can throw off their ENTIRE flow. Look no further than Mewtwo's tail hurt-box, or K.Rool's belly armor breakage.
Honestly, the more time I spend in Smash, the more I can understand the design philosophies behind the characters. Some characters definitely have less than fair or less than fun attributes to them, but that doesn't mean they're badly designed. I don't agree with the message of the video, but I do respect everyone's right to dislike whatever character that want, it's just the nature of fighting games. Really, I only chose to comment about Kazuya since he just happens to be the character I'm most familiar with out of this video's chosen list, but I guarantee that the only thing that really needs to be done here is more matchup grinding. Better yet, play the character for yourself. I used to hate Young Link a lot, until I actually labbed him out in my spare time for a couple of weeks, and guess what? I don't hate Young Link anymore now that I understand how he truly works. Kazuya is no doubt an intimidating character if you aren't familiar with traditional fighting games like other players may be, but you shouldn't discredit a character as just being badly designed just because you don't like certain parts about them. Even with that being said though, I still respect your right to feel how you do.
While I disagree with the core message of this video, I actually did enjoy it, and I would be interested to see further videos on the channel tackling similar subjects of character individuality. Just keep doing what you're doing and I'm sure you'll reach 100k in no time :)
Indeed. People complain about Kazuya but he's the hardest character in the game. If they think Kazuya is broken, Go ahead, main Kazuya and experience the 30% of Tekken 7 Difficulty level.(This Kazuya isn't even the hardest version of him)
I think they gonna give up and play a easy effortless character like Pythra
Yo I'm loving the PDP rematch! I love that you can clean it but where do you get the damn replacement sticks?
This entire list can be filled with everyone in the smash roster
I would be shocked if Steve isn't on here
If they made min mins jab slower and gave her arms hurtboxes. Made Steve mine way slower and placing blocks have more committal frame data and made Sonic’s side and down bs not have invincibility and also damage u upon use like flare blitz (so as to force Sonic’s not to time u out) I feel like this game would be way healthier just by those simple changes and a few others
Charizard is also really badly designed in a way that doesn't make sense from a canon/gameplay standpoint: *WHY IS HE SO BAD IN THE AIR? HE'S A FLYING TYPE!* By definition he should best in the air with great air moves and recovery, but he's on the low end of mediocre in both regards and it's baffling.
*Ganon has similar problems.
Lowkey wish they'd have chosen kh3 Sora for smash instead of his kh1 version. I love both designs but if he was taller, he'd be a little heavier and not as floaty imo. Him being so floaty means it takes like a million years for him to grab ledge, and even longer for his double jump to come out. Also his recovery (despite how great it is) can be predictable and beaten by counters, which is why the Sephiroth matchup sucks for him.
KH3 is a more floaty game then KH1 and most of the moves Sora uses in KH1 he can have in KH3 anyway.
Sephiroth is a terrible MU because Sora struggles with good zoners.
Sepy is faster with more range and he doesn't have to approach you. If he can reliably counter your recovery you're being predictable that's not Sora fault.
Sora was always going to be a floaty imo his game is all about high flying combat
And him being taller would not change that look at mew two
@@ivrydice0954 I agree, I'm not saying kh3 Sora would be less floaty cuz of the game itself, just his design and him being taller. It's more of a cope if anything lol. Besides, kh1 is the least floaty KH game and Sora is still extremely floating in smash. He doesn't float that much at all in kh1 so applying the logic of how the game works doesn't rly apply since it's clear they pulled stuff from all his games, and just kept the floatiness since it's the most consistent thing of all his other games.
@@eem2wavy133 true, good point. I guess I was hoping his air combos would be more comparable to Bayonetta not Mewtwo or Jigglypuff with a sword lol. I just really hate how long it takes him to grab ledge and how slow his double jump comes out. Ez frame traps.
Never respect any Kazuya players. Carried bags
Wahalli Luigi mains finally beat the bottom 5 design allegations
Minmin's up smash reflect projectiles because she is able to to do the same thing in ARMs
Your dhalsim example is just outright wrong. Min min’s arms don’t have hitboxes, only the gloves do and only on the way out, they do nothing on the way back. They really are simply projectiles that can’t be reflected, but are attached to you and thus you can’t shield, run, dodge or do other attacks until they’re back, and you can’t even walk or jump if it’s the smash version, you’re just a sitting duck. Plus many moves can clank them and give you a free approach against her.
I've said it since they came out but I'm still sad that Banjo and Kazooie are so bad. The first game is one of my favorite games of all time and the fact that they're so bad just sucks
I absolutely agree with this list. While Steve is even more overpowered than Kazuya, Kazuya is the most horribly designed by far.
Sora should've been on this list. I've only fought him thrice, and every single time it's the same scenario. His Fire and Thunder make him way too campy, he's got too strong of a recovery game, his FAir seems to come out almost right after he jumps, and the fact that his counter sends people behind him makes absolutely no sense in the world.
Kazuya isn’t as badly designed as Brawl Meta Knight. Kazuya has losing matchups
Out of every character in fp2 fucking sephiroth was the only one they decided to give clear weaknesses to. The one character that deserved to be strong
Counter Point: Kazuya is funny
Steve is like the best example of giving in to trends without thinking. It took so many man hours and resources to get him working in smash, so much that they needed to recode every single stage, and all in service of a character who doesnt even have hitstun or falling animations. He's completely incompatible with smash, and is a bear to fight against, and hitting him doesnt even feel satisfying because he doesnt react to anything visually, which also makes him harder to read than other characters.
It's infuriating to think that this nothing block character had so much care to accurately represent his series, when a character like sonic still uses zero suit samus' forward air from brawl, and has like 4 ball attacks.
Don't agree with any of these takes surprisingly. Characters with strong unique mechanics? Sure. The most unfun to fight against on average? Definitely. Poorly designed? That's a bit of a stretch. I feel like you definitely oversold a lot of their strengths while either not addressing or breezing over their weaknesses.
Whatever the theory behind the characters are, a character who's OP or excessively frustrating in practice is still badly designed.
@@juniperrodley9843 The problem with that as a metric is that it's subjective. Everyone finds some other character frustrating and can any of them even be considered OP when none of them have ever been thought of to be in the top 3?
In my opinion on some design characters I despise and hate
Is
1. Kirby (Despise)
2.Little Mac (Despise)
3 Kazaa (Despise)
4. Mii Costume Creeper (Despise)
5. Mii Costume Ashley (Despise)
6. Mii Costume Shantae (Hate)
i mean, are we not gonna talk about kazuyas absolutely garbage disadvantage? I mean, he has no options to get away from juggling. He has no landing options and you have to retreat to ledge or some other disadvantageous spot on the stage like a platform. Another point is ewgf. Sure, ewgf is the best move in smash. Ill agree with that. Incredible combo starter and has insane frame data. but the problem is how you even get to hitting the electric in the first place. It doesn't matter how busted a move is if you can't hit it. Theres a 2 frame window where you can input electric which doesn't sound too difficult till you realize smash is a 60fps game. You have 1/30th of a second to press a when you press df. Kazuya's neutral is also non existent he has the longest jumpsquat in the game at 7 FRAMES WHICH IS MORE THAN DOUBLE THE NORMAL JUMP SQUAT OF 3 FRAMES. Literally there are kazuya-unique combos because he takes so much longer to jump making his disadvantage that much worse. You can get ewgf from a grab at low percent, but you have to get close first which is hard to do when kaz has little to no approach options against most of the cast. You can get ewgf off of fair, nair, or bair but that means you have to be jumping first and we've already covered that. Kazuya isn't poorly designed in my opinion. He's a well designed character that makes you outplay your opponents and punish bad options with explosive combos. He makes you wait for an opening, make a read, play the slow game until its your turn, just like tekken. Wait your turn.