@@ritwiksarker5466 Because Emperor has never told him about, *why* did he have the Edict of Nikae in place. He honestly had no idea, what he was about to fuck up with his transmission.
I would go 1 step further. Guiliman is a perfectionist. He is like a master architect/diplomat/warrior. For him to see all that man wasted, for the Emp to do such a cruel, but also pointless of an act. What for? Did the problem got solved? Did things get better or back in the way? In the Plague Wars book, Mortarion asks Guiliman about the flaws of the Emperor. Like how stupid was he from time to time, and Guiliman says nothing. Because he knows Mortarion is right. Not to be a big fucking heretic, but I think Guiliman thought his father acting stupid.
Guilliman is a logistician, he knew that Lorgar and his Legion were in the wrong, he knew that they needed to be corrected, bit he despised the fact that the Emperor wanted to use him to raze Monarchia; and make an example of his Brother. If given the chance, I think Roboute would've done things differently, he inspires his Legion, and his people. The Emperor offered no inspiration here, only shame, and disappointment. Lorgar could've been saved, the situation was just handled poorly by the Emperor, as well as Guilliman for not wanting to oppose their Father's will.
That is because Robby is a better dad than Big E, and understands the concept of being too harsh, the values of communication, and understands that if you’re all stick and no carrot than people will get tired of getting hit with the stick
"This was not fealty, nor worship, nor service. This was slavery, and his instincts rebelled at the enforced devotion even as he obeyed it. One hundred thousand Word Bearers kneeled in the dust of the perfect city, rendered prone by Imperial decree. A legion was on its knees." "The joints of his armour thrummed with unreleased strength, forcing him to endure this perversion of the Legion's most sacred ritual." These are without a shadow of a doubt the most important lines in the entire Horus Heresy to me. This is what made the Seventeenth my favorite Legion in the 40K setting. It is the moment, above all others, that cemented the Word Bearers' descent on the road to certain damnation. One hundred thousand warriors, all of whom would happily kneel obediently if the circumstances hadn't shocked them into inaction, denied the agency to do so on their own accord. That is the most crucial word here, agency. The one Legion to whom the simple act of kneeling before the Emperor defined their very existence were now forced to do so against their will. The one thing they wanted to do and they weren't even allowed to do so as an act of true loyalty.
He didn't "kinda" win in the long run, he crushingly succeeded in his plan. -The Emperor is stuck on the Golden Throne and worshipped as a god (also courtesy of those high lord living farts). -The loyalist primarchs, except Guilliman, are lost and we don't even know if they'll ever come back. -The Milky Way is ravaged by conflict, making Lorgar's gods, the Ruinous Powers, thrive and "live" in an age of unprecedented prosperity for them.
@TookALevelInBadass Said cultists and daemons are the very reason why they're experiencing such period. No worship and action in your name, no power/food.
In this moment, the Emperor caused the heresy. He delivered Logar to the Great Enemy on a silver platter, and began the death of all he worked for. As for other ways to go about this... I don’t know. Maybe a softer rebuke, not destroying the perfect city, but filling his fleet to the brim with greatest of his orators of the Imperial Truth. Conquering alongside his wayward son, spending time with him, and forcing his compliance through more personal means. Get Logar to have a better relationship with his father, and with his presence, stopping the spreading of Lorgars creed.
Ironically BigE wanted Russ to sanction Lorgar but Russ talked him down so he went softer via the raising of Monarchia wich ironicaly caused his fall. The one time The Emperor was supposed to be cold he faltered and it cost him everything!
The Emperor is right, but he fails here in two ways. He demonstrates godlike power, while trying to deny his divinity. That's like saying you're not a great athlete while running a marathon. But the primary failure is departing without giving the Word Bearers new purpose. It's alright to bluntly point out their failure. But leave them with a new goal. Remind them that they live long, and that the crusade is not over. That they have time and opportunity to claim the greatness that they were born to achieve. They have failed, but failure needs not be their legacy.
Even Jagatai managed to point his traitorous sons in the right direction after they failed him. It's always rankled me, when the Emperor would do something so short-sighted like this. This isn't the only time he messes up like this. Too many instances of the Emperor "rushing off" to finish something else, and sowing the seeds of rebellion because of his negligent absence.
@james abbgy you are right but I´d say that the emperor thought if he brings the ultrasmurfs along the washed up wordbearers get the hint. Because you have to admit Papa smurf did do a good job with his part of the universe. But I think that he sometimes underestimates how emotional his sons are. Lorgar takes it all to personal instead of seeing the big picture. I mean its not like Lorgar is giving it a chance to reflect on his past life and maybe take a critical angle to look at things. So instead of having a Aha-effect he just sees the disgrace and feels pummeld. Beside that does the emperor really show divinity? i mean this legion worshipped the Emperor, they would have kneeled anyway in his allmighty presence. So he might played around a little bit with his jedimindtricks but i mean its not like they really would fought against him and why would they anyway. So even if the emperor came and pretty much did nothing they prolly would have made a same story out it in their blindness. For example: wow the emperor just came alone without legion without anything , so brave , so powerfull, so might and so on. guess thats the problem our brothers of the holy inquisition are facing every day. They wordbearers are pretty much very unprofessional in the job of masskilling and get caught up within their emotions and the problem of explaining everything with a higher entity. damn religion :) Big E probably things he´s done a good job , done by the book. But well Big E was never prepared to be a father , hes human and he makes mistakes . I mean u gotta understand he got 20 sons and they even got stolen, think thats a pretty traumatizing occasion, even for the Emperor. :P sry for the long post, i got hyped ^^
@@tophgettho One of the greatest failures of the Emperor I think is that he is so logical that he is unable to connect emotionally with other beings, including his primarchs, at least on the emotional level many of them needed him to. And being unable to connect emotionally, he was also unable to understand how big a role these emotions would play in how his sons viewed him and his actions. Even among his sons who were loyal to him, there were those who still questioned wondered how he saw them.
Stannis Baratheon: Bend the knee or i'll destroy you Daenerys Targaryen: bend the knee and join me or refuse and die Emperor of mankind:yall muthafuckers ain't got a choice in the matter ya'll will kneel and like it.
>purges 2 legions, redacting their existence from history and mind-wiping them from some primarch minds >knows existence of conceptual entities in a dimension of energy, doesn’t tell anyone “It is the imperium of Man, the empire of humanity, enlightened and saved by the truth”
"Truth" = Lies the Emperor prefers to Truth. (aka mechanicus is ok to have religion, cause they important!) The Truth would've been that religions are primitive tools, and humanity outlived them. The solution would've been to announce yourself as a great existence, but not as a god.. which he is basicly starting to be at this point. In short, once again, fuck the little man. The Emperor is the same as all the tyrants before. He was just better at it.
Facts will invariably defeat fictions. Refusing to allow "faith" to exist next to facts was how the emperor operated. If the emperor chose to conceal facts, he would have logical reason to. It is the directive of the primarchs to understand this and obey accordingly. Lorgar chose not to and paid the price. The heresy was always about choice versus consequence and the galaxy still pays for those choices made. A shame the example of the eldar's misdeeds was never used to inspire wisdom in humans.
If the Emperor was two thing personnified, it would be hypocrisy and overconfidence. He _cannot_ be aware of everything. If not even the gods can't, how could he ? My guess is that Big E. is merely pretending to be omniscient to keep everyone together.
I'll be honest, the way he dealt with Lorgar is probably by far my biggest "what the heck, Emprah?" moment. Not expecting Lorgar to revolt after the public humiliation of his legion, his beliefs and himself AND the destruction of his proudest achievement is to me one of the densest decision in all Warhammer 30-40K... that is, if the Heresy wasn't a case of severe "Just as Planned!", which I almost believe it was. Not that I don't think Lorgar made a few bad decisions but, you know... he was right.
@@Greatkingrat88 well, you folks misunderstand the prime reason for the rebuke, it was not because of religion but because lorgar was lagging behind the other legions in the crusade for choosing to convert people rather than to dominate them by force. When the censure happened, a few years of lull kinda washed over lorgar's sector then they suddenly went to a conquering spree, becoming the fastest legion to expand the great crusade. Given such an grand increase of productivity, why would the emperor think anything is wrong? He rebuked lorgar for playing "peacemaker" rather than conqueror and after the rebuke lorgar became one hell of a conqueror, in his eyes that's a success.
@@newtonia-uo4889 Empy let them spread religion for a century before finally stepping in, and publicly humiliating them- you'd think that he would make the progress of the second largest legion more of a priority than that. This was just bad management on the emperor's part, plain and simple.
@@Greatkingrat88 Oh, you are talking about the time before the rebuke, yeah the emperor didn't show any kind of aversion to what lorgar was doing even during that one month of in your face worship. So lorgar was rightfully pissed off when the emperor suddenly rebuked him.
I'd say Magnus from If the Emperor Had a Text-to-Speech Device had it right here. On the one hand Emps says he isn't a god. And on the other hand, he says this while doing every conceivable thing that defines a Gnostic god. In fact, just about the only thing that separated Emps from the traditional gnostic version of a god at that point was that he did not derive strength from worship- which he then proceeded to do after getting put on the Golden Throne. Also, he offered no supporting arguments. He just tried to get his way by bullying and humiliating Lorgar- not nice, but absolutely consistent with Old Testament godlike behavior. The logical consequence of his actions toward Lorgar at this point was not that Lorgar would stop believing in his divinity, but rather that Lorgar would still believe in it- and come to hate him for lying about it. Which he did.
Great sentence that mate: The logical consequence of his actions toward Lorgar at this point was not that Lorgar would stop believing in his divinity, but rather that Lorgar would still believe in it- and come to hate him for lying about it.
@@earltheartist3697 There is no (ancient tyrkey), as Asia Minor was Eastern Roman Empire for 1k (one thousand years) before the turks's onslaught and extermination of autochthonous people there.
Makes 150k Space marines kneel with a whisper. I ain't a god bruh. Literally makes them fly away with a psy shout. I ain't a god bruh. Radiates energy so powerfull that even looking in his direction blinds you. I am just a man. Word Bearers Legion and their Primarch : Rly nigga?
It's a powerful message. "I'm not a god" after doing all that. He's not a god. He's a man. He's what all humans could be if they'd just get their shit together for a few millennia. Not gods. Far more powerful than gods. Specifically, more powerful than the four most powerful gods in setting. The Emperor spoke the truth here, Lorgar just couldn't figure out that gods are not inherently superior to men.
@MrGuvnah Yes, the path of human evolution is, according to Big E himself, leading humanity to become an even greater psychic species than the Eldar. It's why the emperor was so focused on the human webway project, because the nascent human psykers would be too powerful to ignore if they traveled conventionally through the warp.
@@gama343 I have to disagree. The Emperor of Mankind is no mere man, no matter how much he might insist otherwise. Even Gulliman has recently come to realize this and has been reading the Lectitio Divinatus to learn whether it might have a grain of truth in it. As for your claim that the Emperor is stronger than the gods of the setting, I find this claim is ultimately yet to be determined and quite questionable. Horus, a being who was charged with the energies of all four deities, was able to to put Big E on his thrown, and he only wielded a fraction of what the Chaos gods posses. True, Big E was not fighting at his best and that on a good day he probably would been able to kill Horus without being mortally wounded, but still, I think the Chaos Gods have alot more muscle than you give them credit for.
@MrGuvnah No, rather humanity could become like the emperor without the sacrificing of so many beings to make one. The shamans sacrifice was just a shortcut. That was the whole point as it was necessary at the time.
The Emperor was fantastic here! I mean, can you imagine how set-back my brothers and I would have been if he had displayed any kind of tact in this scenario? No golden boy to deliver the Heresy to us on a silver platter, yeesh. Heck, we'd still be stuck abusing Xenos in the Maelstrom or messing with stone-age T'au. Really, full props to the anathema on this one, if there's anyone who could FUBAR a species transcendence, it's gotta be him. I might even let up the phantom itching for a few days just thinking about how wonderful this all was.
I actually have to laugh at the fact that Big-E, in trying to starve the Chaos Gods by burning Monarchia, probably just handed them their greatest servant on a silver platter.
This my friends is where the Heresy really starts. And you will need more than a heavy bolter for this Heresy. Erebus and Kor Phaeron would never have been able to turn Lorgar bad had the Emperor not been so heavy handed in his censure. Even Leman Russ thought this was a bad idea. People should check out part 2 of the Death of Hope, really well done scene of the Word Bearer legion forced to its knees in the ashes of Monarchia.
Im Not a GoD JuST a MaN says the immortal, perpetual, immeasurably powerful being, as he psychically prostrates an entire army of the most powerful warriors in the galaxy. all doing this remotely, as well
And remember, there’s definitely no demons, gods or any kind of spiritual entity and absolutely no one should look too closely at that whole warp and psyker thing. The emperor said so.
@Jona A god by definition is an immortal almost or allpowerful creative/destructive being. The Emperor is not the ultimate of human potential because he wasn't human when he was born to begin with. You have to be human to be human. Neither were the primarchs. They are immortal superhumans with some human characteristics. The Emperor is a tragic figure because for all his knowledge he is still stupid.
He isn't a god at all, he's far better than that. He's more powerful than any of the gods in the setting, and requires none of the worship. He has a potent physical form that allows him to interact with and project his power into the material realm far better than any Avatar of the Eldar pantheon, or daemonhost of Chaos. The Emperor is not a god, he is something that creates gods. He is a man.
@@gama343 That's a pretty tasty word salad. But you people still have no idea what the word "God" or the words "just a man" mean. So until you learn that, you can't understand the nature of the Emperor.
@Viktor Samoja That would be true if the Emperor was born as a basic human like you and me and then evolved into what he was during the crusade. But he wasn't, all the groundwork for his immortality and power was layed before he was even born. He didn't evolve, he was made to be. The general definition of "man" you people accept is basically the lowest criteria possible, to you people a man is anything that looks and sounds like us.
"While all others succeed and bring prosperity to the Imperium" Excuse me ? Kurze, Angron and Perturabo left horrible messes in their wake. Lorgar was slow, but like Guilliman, he was focusing on long term success. That is quite the double standard.
At this point I think 2 and 11 did the naughties which each other and got purged for that. Considering your examples above, plus Lorgar and Magnus, with neither of their being dealt with in that way, I can't think of any other reason.
He was betrayed by his own father. The filling is almost undesirable. It is a mixture of noble disgust, true rage, boundless lamentation, sacred contempt, and riches desire for just vengeance.
Imagine this as a dinner table scenario when Big E chastises Lorgar, Magnus, or any of his sons really. Big E - I am not a god boys. Now eat your food and no more worship or psyker shenanigans from either of you. Lorgar - Dad, you have a literal halo around your head rn. Magnus - And you're not even really here anyways. You're just using your psyker abilities to project your image from the garage...we could help in there you know. Big E - DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO!
I'm really glad I came across this channel... I'm 40 years old, and have been a fan of the 40k universe since my parents bought me the old "Space Marine" boxed game when I was about 13 years old. Through that, and the old White Dwarf magazines I got into 40K "EPIC" but eventually stopped as back then in Australia, especially as a teenager there was nobody to really play with. So I turned to the books, first the original "Space Marine" & also the now retconned "Inquisitor". In short, it has always been something of a passion, and over the years between things like the Dawn of War video games and different books & lore websites I kept in touch with it. Then when the Black Library released the Horus Heresy I drove back in again, buying the 1st half of the series and even contemplating getting back into gaming itself (though I really miss the Epic miniatures... having army's of hundredsof marines, dozens of different Mech units and even multiple titans in a single army was, well, epic). But now I'm adulting I have to balance my time & finances and with work and life's responsibilities I had to make a choice...I could only afford to really invest in 1 or 2 passions, and I chose Motorcycles, competitive esports (sim racing... another compromise as I can't afford a real second car for track use) & bunny rabbits. Yes rabbits. So I buy & read a book maybe once or twice a year, but I haven't got the time or money to keep up with all the cool stuff Games Workshop & the Black Library put out. I found channels such as One Mind Syndicate & 40k Theories but this one seems to have the most passion about it, and concentrates so well on the most poignant moments & events. Because of this channel I get to have a glimpse and taste of what I love but don't have the time or money to keep up with. So this whole short novel of a comment is to simply say thank you for your work. I've started and run TH-cam channels for work (Marketing & media) and am about to launch my own (a gaming channel based mostly on sim racing, though I'll be driving and reviewing irl cars, interviewing racing drivers, covering races & other events etc... think a cross between a Twitch stream and Top Gear)...I know how much work goes into each episode. So, thank you. I don't know if you'll ever read this but I'm sincerely thankful to you for what you do here.
Biologically Immortal, Comparatively All Powerful Individual: Genetically engineers a super soldier to possess strength and charisma only matched by his fanaticism, then punishes said super soldier for behaving as intended and being smart enough to put two and two together and recognize that his creator was in fact a god. Seems legit.
Even back then The Emperor knew he was technically a God i think, he just didn't want humans to be religious anymore since he was aware of The Chaos Gods n the crazy shit they get up 2, he wanted to starve them i think
I think the reason why the Emperor didn't pick a different primarch like Vulkan or Sanguinius, is because they would likely outright refuse such harsh methods. Whereas those like Angron or Mortarion would go too far. The Ultramarines were the same size as the Word Bearers and what they were supposed to be. Plus Gulliman would be both tactful but not harsh. And even he regrets the deed.
@@SeanHenderson The Emperor deserved to be betrayed by Lorgar. He lied to him, this Imperial truth was a lie to begin with and he punished him for not upholding a lie. Btw he was right, he forged the most loyal worlds, which would have came handy againts the chaos, but the Emperor fucked up again.
You have to see the irony, "Iam just a man" talking to his son across the mass expanse of space, clad in golden armour in a more than angelic vision ! What is more God like than that ?
@@Duppyman695 No it doesn't. Being a leader doesn't equal being a god. Nor dose him wanting to lead his species into a better future mean that he wants to be worshiped by them. Don't be ridiculous.
@@Duppyman695 why would he plan for all his progress to be undone and have himself locked in the Golden Throne *in agony for 10,000 years* ? No, I don't think he planned it.
I love that the more recent writing has gone so deep into how the Emperor looks upon his sons and how he thinks of them. We've seen him have this warm, loving, proud look quite a few times now. Particularly when he finds Sanguinis, talking with Dorn and Vulkan when preparing to defend Terra, looking upon Jaghatai who was standing next to his father staring out into the void after they had argued. Hell he speaks to Kurze with warm, gentle voice trying to calm his anxieties before the assassin arrived to kill Kurze. These stories should effectively end the debate as to whether he loves his sons or not. I'd say it's a resounding yes. He just sometimes doesn't deal with his sons and their bs properly. Angron and Mortarion come to mind.
The Emperor always leaves a choice I have noticed. He never outright forces his Primarchs to do his bidding. True that the 100k Word Bearers were forced to kneel, but that might have been just the sheer weight of the Emperors might. Should he have willed it, he could have crushed Logar in that very instant, and thus removing one of the key seeds of Chaos. His power so bright and yet why does he hold back on some of the most key aspects? I honestly think its because he does not believe himself to be a god but a just and fair Emperor. Because if he wanted to be a God, would that make him any better then the God's of Chaos? Who force obedience and never leave a true choice. Merely tricks and lies on which to follow, but never truly choose allow tgose to choose for themselves. There is a fine line between God and Ultimate truth. And Wolf, thank you for the amazing video and contemplation.
That's nonsense. The emperor is a dictator, and he's eradicated at least one primarch that displeased him. "Do my bidding or be destroyed" is a gun to your head; it's not a choice in any meaningful way.
Dont be silly. Of course he didnt destroyed them and gave them another chance. What sort of idiot destroy an entier legion of nearly invincible warrior because they are too loyal?
He left no choice to the church of the thunder stone. He came, he saw, he culturally obliterated. The great crusade was an armed invasion of several worlds to force his ideology. He left no choice to his primarchs about chaos, he never told them about it, much less the Imperium. So when his Imperium was left to make all the true choices that shape humanity's history, they falter because the Emperor used to take those away before they even knew they existed. He forgot that an organization that completely depends on one man's vision to function will crumble once he cannot hold office.
A father gives his gifted son Lego to build with. The son builds a monument to honor his dad. Dad has another son that the first son dislikes, smash the Lego monument. Dad chastises the son who built the monument, in front of the brother that smashed his Legos . Gee, I wonder if that son is gonna hold a grudge?
I enjoyed the word bearers omnibus, seriously felt bad for Lorgar. Gets raised by priests, becomes a priest, see's father perform divine feats, father claims "sorry son, not a god"
This is the moment that I truly began to despise the emperor of mankind in 30k, this and possibly the story The Last Church. Of all the primarchs Lorgar loved the emperor more than any other, and the Emperor basically spat in his face for it, amd denounced all his efforts as a "poison" against his "truth". This moment, at least in my eyes, proved that the emperor was almost certianly no better than those that had come before him, that he was little more than an arrogant fool who deluded himself into thinking he was right and everyone else was wrong and stupid, and truly deserves every ounce of pain, agony, and suffering that he is forced to endure.
That's pretty much why nearly every other Perpetual except Malcador and Ollanius Pius (who just sort of lived a quiet life) rebelled because they believed The Emperor was setting Himself up to be the worst tyrant in history. And the fact that THAT wasn't a wake up call for Him shows, He really isn't immune to arrogance. Also, I find it rich that He denounces Lorgar's faith, that made people feel fulfilled, as "Poison" when Curze is busy inventing new crimes against humanity, Mortarion ruins every world he touches and Angron is pilling bodies, enemy, ally and civilian, like it's an Olympic Sport, and he doesn't do shit. And NO. Don't tell me, "He sent Russ to deal with Angron." He PERSONALLY came to Lorgar, whereas He sent Russ to deal with Angron and didn't even bother to reprimand him after he told Russ to Fuck off and that if he could, he would sever The Emperor's head. How is THAT not worse than Lorgar spreading a faith that has now been proven to hurt Chaos? Combine that with the fact that he surrounded Himself with his Golden Yes-Men, it's pretty clear Emps needed to humble Himself at little. Okay, A LOT. ...Although, none of it would excuse what Lorgar would go on to do, selling humanity out to the four Reality Tumors.
@@randomcenturion7264 Oh I'm not saying it excuses Lorgar for what he did at all. Although it does make me wonder, if He hadn't humiliated and rejected Lorgar here, would Lorgar have done what he did later.regarding chaos? Cause I just get this feeling this moment is what shook Lorgars faith in the Emperor and set him on the road to the Pilgrimage amd Chaos. And I agree 100% with your other point. The Emperor totally didn't need to deal with this personally. There were tons of other places his personal attention was needed more. Like at most just tell Lorgar "hey, mind toning down the religious stuff? Maybe have me shown to be a savior/hero figure instead of a god?" Instead of destroying everything. If anything I would say that Angron or Kurze needed the Emperors personal attention a LOT more than Lorgar building a few cathedrals (I know it was more than that just simplifying for the sake of argument). Personally it just seems to me that this moment and others like it indicate that the Emperor really brought the heresy on himself.
@@beewitha50cal Exactly. I mean, which son sounds like they need some personal reprimands more: Lorgar: I love Dad and everything he's doing so much I want the whole Galaxy to respect Him like the God He is. Emps: Oh Hell Naw! Angron: I'm a walking PR Nightmare for the Imperium. I waste thousands of loyal astartes lives out of pettiness. And the MOMENT I get the chance, I am going to take The Emperor's head and use it as a chamber pot! Emps:...Meh, he seems fine. At least he isn't religious.
I think one of the things that the black library gets right about the Emperor and his sons, at least from the perspective that they represent different aspects of himself, is that each of the primarch's represent a portion of him that is taken to an extreme. Yet untempered by the emotions that are balanced by other thoughts, feelings, and experiences that the Emperor can draw on due to what has happened to him over the course of his life. Which makes Lorgar are the more tragic in that he is the part of the Emperor who needs to believe in something greater than himself; but lacking the other pieces that the Emperor has learned to draw upon inorder to prevent himself from falling into nihilism. But that is also where the Emperor made a mistake by bringing Guilliman, as opposed to Sangunius. Guilliman represents Lorgar's complete opposite, whereas Sangunius embody's some aspect of the Emperor's being different from others while still having compassion for them despite never quite 'being' one of them no matter how hard he tries. Sangunius may have been able to help Lorgar to understand how he and his legion could be more Guilliman like while still being true to what they desperately wanted to be. So in a way, (at least to my head cannon) a lot of the Primarch's greatest disagreements stem from not having the appropriate intermediaries in the room to help them mediate the thornier aspects of themselves.
^While all others bring prosperity to the Imperium" Ummm....Perturabo ? Kurze ? Angron ? Seriously, is the Emperor that clueless ? Lorgar was slow, but he left a solidly prosperous and loyal populace behind.
I know right? Is he high? Lorgar BUILT worlds. They were loyal, peaceful and prosperous. It just shows how strong Emps delusional hatred of faith was, that he considered a world of butchered corpses (Angron) radioactive and toxic waste (Mortarion) rubble (Perturabo) or very, very bitter survivors (Konrad) to be better.
The same peaceful worlds that immediately start worshipping Chaos when the Heresy struck? The same worlds where Erebus perverted the already delusional teachings of his primarchs?The same world that got their religion torn from them by a fanatic and complied only through brainwashing and not reason? That's the worlds your talking about or you confused them with the worlds of Ultramar, Prospero and even Fulgrims home planet?
Been a Fan for Many Moons now, Awesome to see ye Breaking 100k and Bringing your Fantastic Narrative ability, with an eloquence an an inherent ability, to not only sift and root out Meaning's & Details often Overlooked, or not giving the Gravity their Situation deserves, Ye single handedly Won Me to the God-Emperor of Mankind whom Loved, and felt as Close to a Father as a Being of his Magnitude is capable, but Bring Out his Humanity and Light, I believe Novels such as Master of Mankind and the Presentation of a Cold/Distant/Incapable of Feeling Emotionally Man, whom not Only Never Loved the Primarch's but saw Them as Nothing but Tools, to be Discarded and Tossed aside when they've Accomplished giving Him the Galaxy, which He planned to Rule in Cold Logic/Reason/Agnostic/Human Galaxy of Which he will indefinitely reign as Master, Uncompromising, Unrelenting, Cold and incapable of Empathy as the 👀 of the Primarches told a completely and irreconcilably different Tune of the Big E, his 🕯️, Majesty, and Inspiring Wonderment, of which Men and Demi-Gods would Gladly Follow to the ends of the Universe or Death straight in the 👁️, and the Giving of One's Life without a second of Doubt makes One 🤔▪️🥃-Cheers
@@newtonia-uo4889 logar had no love for humanity. his love was to the emperor as a god alone. humanity was nothing but slaves to him. with the goal of having them all worship him. in the end the traitor got exactly what he wanted.
@@texasallstar6969 the man literally wanted to fight his father, HIS GOD, in defence of the poor people of monarchia. Lorgar loved humans, when the daemon was showing him prophecy of the future, it constantly referred to the fate of humanity because it knew that lorgar's main interest was in the destiny of humanity than anything else.
At the one hand I feel like the Emperor was too harsh with them but on the other hand, he is speaking to genetically engineered super soldiers so he shouldn't have to sugar coat his words. They failed him BUT he also gave them a second chance. "Let this be the rebirth of your legion". They could have redeemed themselves but they chose not to.
They're adults so he was speaking to them as such, at leas that was the way I saw it. They are his kids but they're also full grown and living lives on their own.
Makes sense though. When Humanity is finally united what will be with the Primarchs and the Space Marines? Their existence is at that point redundant. While Space Marines are great and all, but with better technology you can make armor, suits, that are stronger, more durable, faster, and better equiped. Primarchs might have might, and capabilities no else, but technology surpasses them, and at that point.. why do they exist? I fear their destiny is one with the Thunder Warriors.
@@texasallstar6969 They do in my experience, The most truly faithful people I know, you would never even know they were part of a religion. They are quiet, meek, and mild. Screaming zealots are not faithful they are faithless. They believe God is powerless without them. All Powerful, does not need anyone, it just invites them along for the ride sometimes.
@SwordSorcery2020 you see. The supposed evil in religion, is actually just the evil of humanity wearing the mask of a god. The ultimate frustration of the atheist is that they will purge the world of religion, and find it entirely unchanged, men never needed permission to be evil, gods were just as convenient an excuse as insanity or simple blood lust.
@Þaymrick Ólafursson. Yes it is, But in order to make an argument like that "against" religion, you must concede that God exists. But if God exists, and if God exists, at least the God described by the abrahamic Faith's, then trying to say that the individual who created all life, designed the very notion of life, then cannot take that life away because we personally find it objectionable is nonsense. There are many other actors we as human beings simply ignore in the moral question: The earth does not consent to our existence or our abuses. The living flora and fauna we haphazardly slaughter because we simply can, or for our own convenience do not consent to our rule willingly. Even our own physical bodies, which we abuse, use, damage and destroy of our own pleasures, do not consent to our actions willingly, infact it crys out in a voice we can so easily hear called pain, but we ignore it because of a chemical rush. Daily the whole earth may beg, plead, and whimper to almighty God for our utter destruction, and this is before we consider the crimes we do to each other, or even the insults and crimes we commit against him. If such a God does exist, it is more astonishing that he has restrained himself from our utter obliteration for so long. And if God does not exist, then he has committed no crimes, and all we have seen is lies and the actions of men. Thus blaming god, or even the notion of god, is childish.
Leman Russ initially thought the Emperor was a God and his people thought that they had died and entered the afterlife when they joined the Great Crusade. Honestly I would enjoy reading a conversation between Russ and Lorgar on the subject of their father, different as they are it could have been something for them to bond over. Or even with Jaghati who refused to abandon his people's old ways.
Uuuhhh.... The Emperor is lying there. Religion as much as I hate it, saved humanity many times over. It lead humanity to order, to forming social concract, to work, to standarts, to laws. It is primitive, but it is not useless, or just a curse. That is a clear LIE. He says most of this, because he is acting ignorant and hateful towards religion. He has his own flawed truth. Damn. Good writting. Humans are not perfect, meaning that he is a demigod and still only human.
The First Heretic was the first time i basked on the full glory and magnificence of the Emperor, i still remember tears of emotion were rolling while reading , His majesty but also His cruelty, and that’s what makes the character of the Emperor so beautiful, his perfect imperfections. Blessed be the Master of Mankind, beloved by all
One of my favourite scenes from the novels. Though the way the Emperor dealt with this situation you can't really be surprised the Word Bearers fell to Chaos. Finally when you consider the Emperor's powers he's quite clearily a god in all but in all but name after ten thousand years of being a rotting corpse he still refuses to die.
Fantasy based worlds (like that of 40k) often need a little artistic leeway, and generally I'm happy to oblige, for doing so often makes for more interesting lore & stories. However, I frequently struggle with the rampant and endless stupidity portrayed by the Emperor. He's supposed to be this (nearly) all powerful, all knowing, ancient being of endless wisdom. Capable of tremendous and impossible feats. Yet, he often has almost NO common sense. A.) The truth can burn, and not everyone is strong enough to endure that pain. Tearing down delusion can lead to resentful and spiteful people. I've learned that the hard way. B.) To be an effective leader, you must be aware of how your actions/words effect those under your command. You must be aware of how they feel.
His Imperial Truth defeated the last priest of Old Terra in the Last Church so at the very least it's rationality was strong enough to kill the old religions. The problem is that throughout the establishment of the Imperium of Man, there were instances where his actions were irrational (perhaps necessary) which later caused his sons to drift further apart until the Chaos Gods took full advantage of the situation.
@TookALevelInBadass I agree that the Chaos gods are false Gods. They don't even predate humanity, the Emperor is older than all of them. They arent Gods with a capital G but they are small g gods. The 40k lore doesn't actually answer the question of whether there is a true God who created the universe, but there are beings who are powerful enough to count as gods in the pagan sense, the Emperor himself is also such a being. Also, the Emperor's Imperial Truth was still a lie in that it doesn't address the existence of Chaos at all, but seeks to hide it. However you look at it the Emperor was lying about the spiritual realities of the universe. People do in fact possess souls, and the strict materialism he is proposing is not the whole truth.
@@neoth8647 but his imperial truth didn't defeat the last priest though. The debate was a stand still until the emperor just burned the church down. One of relics which is a clock that foretold the coming of apocalypse actually started working when the emperor arrogantly refused to internalize what the priest was saying.
Not only the imperial truth is a lie, but the emperors argument about religion is defeatend when he does the exact same things to prove how religions arent good for humanity
Brother Rho, greetings!! Love your channel!! I look forward every time for your next video. Keep up the good work. Now, I think that The Emperor made a few mistakes here. First, I agree, He should have taken Horus and not Guilliman, due to the fact that Horus was Warmaster. Guilliman for all intents holds the same rank or position if you will as Lorgar. This way The Emperor is showing a united front among the Command structure by having Horus, the Warmaster, at his side, which brings his next mistake. In the military there is a golden rule, you praise in public and reprimand in private. The Emperor should have met with Lorgar alone to address this issue. By doing it in public The Emperor could have ruined Lorgar's authority of command over his legion. If you think about it, it's a trickling effect. This situation and potentially the heresy could have been adverted if The Emperor had share his intentions from the beginning with all his sons, in other words been transparent instead of keeping secrets from them. In my opinion this is proof that for The Emperor, his sons were just tools in his grand plan for the Imperium. Like Guilliman stated, The Emperor let his sons loved him and made them believe that he loved them back. Anyways, can't wait for your next video! Thank you!
I get the soldiers anger and rage but they should have heard him. "This is what worship is." He is showing them what they were asking for in their world.
The Emperor is wrong. He denies being a God and yet, at all times, he acts like one. He demands unquestioning loyalty, he enforces compliance with absolute power and he decides upon life and death with but a word. He stands among the human dead whose life he has decided to take, himself far removed from humanity, and calls his actions the Imperium of Man. He is in fact a deity. And he himself, having lived through so much of human history should know this. Unfortunately this is one of those cases where writers bias and/or incompetence has led the storytelling down. They are so fixated on the monotheistic image of the abrahamic one true God, that they've completely ignored the fact, that most human religions throughout history are far removed from this concept, including the ones in the culture he would have been up in. In fact, the irony is, that the 40k setting itself is pantheistic but seemingly ascribes only one possible image of godhood unto the emperor, even in his own mind. While it is a great scene in the book, ultimately it is a letdown. With a bit more imagination, the discussion between the Emperor and Lorgar could have been far more interesting.
The primarchs are just tired of the Emperor lying to their faces as if that is ok. They feel as if they are of high enough station to know and understand the actual truth. So the Emperor found it best to run his Imperium using lies, decete, and convenient truths to his own ends. Of corse it was for the betterment of mankind and our situation amongst the stars, however, these stories prove that he is every bit as flawed as his flawed primarchs, only more powerful and in charge of everything. So, you see, his mistakes or strategic errors are potentially the most potent kind that exsist anywhere.
My question is; why didn't the Emporer show this amount of psychic power when he was fighting Horus, If he can make lorgar heed his word without even trying, why didn't he put all his effort in into fighting Horus with his psychic power?
The thing about The Horus Heresey that makes me sad is that the whole thing could have been prevented it Lorgar ever went through the thought process of "If my father, The Emperor Beloved by All, is a god, what kind of god is he?" Because if he had, the response would be "A god of Order. For his highest values are truth, science, and the conformity of the whole species to a single vision." Which is naturally followed by "How does one worship w god of Order?" The answer is "Obedience." If a god of Order gives you a command, than the orderly thing to do is obey. If you're truly sure that The Emperor Beloved by All is a god, you follow his commands as exactly as you can, because that is what is most pleasing to him. You trust in the Order of his plan, in the Order of his wisdom, in the Order of his Will. It is so sad that Lorgar can know his father so well but be so IGNORANT! Thor god of thunder, Ra god of the sun, Ares god of War. In every religious system deities have a portfolio that they look over. The Emperor had even told him how to specifically make him happy. But Lorgar just ignored that and assumed that he knew better than his god, about what his god wanted and how his god wanted to be worshipped. Ha. And they say Horus was as the one with too much pride. I get that without the mistakes they all made the 40k universe would be very different, and this is w prequel. But it really does surprise me how stupid the Primarchs were. Then again that does make them human, despite all the tremendous science and sorcery used to make them post/trans human, they are at the end of the day, human, stupid and flawed.
I disagree. A God of Order, at his most fundamental, is still a god, and what he says will not change that fact. If a God of Order denies his godhood, than he is denying truth. Thus, that makes him a god who is a proponent of a lie. While a lie may further the purposes of Order, the lie is itself a figment of disorder, because a lie, by nature of being a lie, creates a disconnect between perception (what is said) and reality (the fact that the God of Order is a god). Just as it is said that a peace built on lies is no peace at all, order built on disorder is not order. Thus, you have a situation in which a God of Order is not merely using disorder, but actually sowing disorder, to further the purposes of order, which goes against his essential quality of seeking Order in all things. Under this logic, Lorgar is left in a bind. To acknowledge the Emperor as the God of Order and thus follow his command of the Imperial Truth is to be complicit in the God of Order's betrayal of his own fundamental nature. Looking at the Emperor as a much more fundamental God, like a God of Creation or a God of Humanity can help avoid this trap.
@@7503funkymonkey I would argue that the Emperor is, as he stated, not actually a god. He is just a being whose personal power makes the distinction irrelevant. But, if he was to become one, his personality is that of a god of Order. Therefore if one venerated him as a god, and takes his personality into account, they should treat him as a god of Order and act accordingly. In other words, "Do what your father says because he says so!"
I wonder what would happen to the Imperial truth if the Emperor were to ever return? Would the Emperor still maintain his belief that he is not a god and shouldn't be worshipped as such or would he embrace the fact that he is a god knowing how much he has sacrificed so much throughout the millenia after the heresy? There is so much to consider if he ever does. The last thing E-man would want is repeating the same mistakes that caused the Imperium to be in shamples in the first place.
I think he choose gillimun because like he said the wordbearers legion was the largest save the ultra marines, so if things went badly best to have a legion of compariable numbers that doesn't take to much away from the crusade it's self.
Kicking the house of eternal love ...no wonder they look elsewhere for a answer to their wants , needs and maybe the fact the peoples they've told story's of the Emporeor. THE emporeor should have virus bombed it !
I just got to this passage in the 30k book, Betrayer. Found it grimly hilarious and ironic that this entire event ended up fulfilling Lorgar's original goal of spreading the faith of the Emperor to the million worlds of the Imperium. *Gods deceived and clashed and sought to advance their own dominions over their rivals’. Lorgar trusted none of their prophecies. He’d even seen glimpses of potential futures where the Imperium came to worship the Emperor as a god. What would have to transpire in countless trillions of human hearts for that faith to ever take hold? The very faith Lorgar was chastised for spreading, the very beliefs he was punished for believing - how could mankind’s empire ever embrace their lord as a deity, after the XVII Legion had been humiliated for daring to claim such a truth? He shook his head at the thought and sighed softly.*
Do we know anything about what the unnamed primarchs did to deserve to be killed (if they were) and how that compares to what Logar did and him not receiving the same fate?
7:49 can't help but feel that this characters power scaling is off. I'm not sure. The demon formed by the first murder was beyond his power to destroy, but the full power of 4 chaos gods is bestable and he can do that but somehow still needed help killing off the Orks at Ullanor and was nearly killed by an ork warboss? What? Does the collective waaaagh power of the orks dull his strength or something?
So, this is how it happened. I've heard about it, but never read the books myself. Now that I know, I'm not sure how the Emperor could have done things any differently in this moment, despite the consequences afterwards. Perhaps what he should have done was deprogram his son more thoroughly after finding him. After all, he took the time to have a lengthy chat with the Last Priest on Terra and almost succeeded in getting his point of view across. A wiser man would reflect on what he did wrong and consider other options, but the Emperor is so arrogant and firmly believes that his way is the only way. I've considered this before, but I can't help but wonder if the Emperor was in a huge rush with the Great Crusade. He found his zealot of a son, gave him an army and sent him off. He of all people should have known what would happen, even without the powers of foresight that he "supposedly" has, especially with his views on religion.
![SAFEPLANET - ดาวเคราะห์ [ THE PLANET ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4X1XL3I_k3c/mqdefault.jpg)
The Horus Heresy is a very good example of why honest communication is very important.
It should be a parenting manual
And a textbook example of what happens when someone doesn't do as they're told :D
Magnus had similar views, guess where his communication attempt led him? -_-'
@@ritwiksarker5466 Because Emperor has never told him about, *why* did he have the Edict of Nikae in place. He honestly had no idea, what he was about to fuck up with his transmission.
Ritwik Sarker pretty sure magnus has no clue what the webway project was. That one is on big E.
I think even Guilliman was thinking that they were being a bit too harsh on Lorgar.
Bobby G did think it was to harsh.
I did.
I would go 1 step further. Guiliman is a perfectionist. He is like a master architect/diplomat/warrior.
For him to see all that man wasted, for the Emp to do such a cruel, but also pointless of an act. What for?
Did the problem got solved? Did things get better or back in the way?
In the Plague Wars book, Mortarion asks Guiliman about the flaws of the Emperor. Like how stupid was he from time to time, and Guiliman says nothing. Because he knows Mortarion is right.
Not to be a big fucking heretic, but I think Guiliman thought his father acting stupid.
Guilliman is a logistician, he knew that Lorgar and his Legion were in the wrong, he knew that they needed to be corrected, bit he despised the fact that the Emperor wanted to use him to raze Monarchia; and make an example of his Brother. If given the chance, I think Roboute would've done things differently, he inspires his Legion, and his people. The Emperor offered no inspiration here, only shame, and disappointment. Lorgar could've been saved, the situation was just handled poorly by the Emperor, as well as Guilliman for not wanting to oppose their Father's will.
That is because Robby is a better dad than Big E, and understands the concept of being too harsh, the values of communication, and understands that if you’re all stick and no carrot than people will get tired of getting hit with the stick
Dad: religions are bad
Lorgar: builds cities to worship dad
Dad: razes the shit out of the cities.
...There's no way that will end poorly for him, right?
Richard Valdes - Rasmussen too bad he was brought up on a religious world as well.
@@Akranejames Lorgar: Pikachu meme face
@@NRV0 pikachu with tattoos all over his head like lorgar
Jun Okura ironically Logar set up the foundation for cardinal planets, which in turn make the emperor stronger in the warp 10k years later
"This was not fealty, nor worship, nor service. This was slavery, and his instincts rebelled at the enforced devotion even as he obeyed it. One hundred thousand Word Bearers kneeled in the dust of the perfect city, rendered prone by Imperial decree. A legion was on its knees."
"The joints of his armour thrummed with unreleased strength, forcing him to endure this perversion of the Legion's most sacred ritual."
These are without a shadow of a doubt the most important lines in the entire Horus Heresy to me. This is what made the Seventeenth my favorite Legion in the 40K setting. It is the moment, above all others, that cemented the Word Bearers' descent on the road to certain damnation. One hundred thousand warriors, all of whom would happily kneel obediently if the circumstances hadn't shocked them into inaction, denied the agency to do so on their own accord. That is the most crucial word here, agency. The one Legion to whom the simple act of kneeling before the Emperor defined their very existence were now forced to do so against their will. The one thing they wanted to do and they weren't even allowed to do so as an act of true loyalty.
Great points!
if you think about it lorgar kinda the winner in the long run, he got an entire galaxy to worship Emperor as a god
He didn't "kinda" win in the long run, he crushingly succeeded in his plan.
-The Emperor is stuck on the Golden Throne and worshipped as a god (also courtesy of those high lord living farts).
-The loyalist primarchs, except Guilliman, are lost and we don't even know if they'll ever come back.
-The Milky Way is ravaged by conflict, making Lorgar's gods, the Ruinous Powers, thrive and "live" in an age of unprecedented prosperity for them.
@TookALevelInBadass Said cultists and daemons are the very reason why they're experiencing such period.
No worship and action in your name, no power/food.
@@insanebuffoon3492 Sounds like a win win to me, Emperor became god and the chaos gods have become incredibly powerful too.
@@joevidya Big E didn't want to be a god though.
He successes in making the Emperor a God, but he fails as the God he creates is now his arch nemesis.
In this moment, the Emperor caused the heresy. He delivered Logar to the Great Enemy on a silver platter, and began the death of all he worked for.
As for other ways to go about this... I don’t know. Maybe a softer rebuke, not destroying the perfect city, but filling his fleet to the brim with greatest of his orators of the Imperial Truth. Conquering alongside his wayward son, spending time with him, and forcing his compliance through more personal means. Get Logar to have a better relationship with his father, and with his presence, stopping the spreading of Lorgars creed.
Ironically BigE wanted Russ to sanction Lorgar but Russ talked him down so he went softer via the raising of Monarchia wich ironicaly caused his fall. The one time The Emperor was supposed to be cold he faltered and it cost him everything!
He did rebuke him softly like ten plus times before this
The Emperor is right, but he fails here in two ways. He demonstrates godlike power, while trying to deny his divinity. That's like saying you're not a great athlete while running a marathon. But the primary failure is departing without giving the Word Bearers new purpose. It's alright to bluntly point out their failure. But leave them with a new goal. Remind them that they live long, and that the crusade is not over. That they have time and opportunity to claim the greatness that they were born to achieve. They have failed, but failure needs not be their legacy.
James Abbgy Yep, this is poor leadership from Emps.
Didn't help that he made Lorgar look like a bitch in front of Guilliman either, the one brother Lorgar really doesn't like.
Even Jagatai managed to point his traitorous sons in the right direction after they failed him. It's always rankled me, when the Emperor would do something so short-sighted like this. This isn't the only time he messes up like this. Too many instances of the Emperor "rushing off" to finish something else, and sowing the seeds of rebellion because of his negligent absence.
@james abbgy you are right but I´d say that the emperor thought if he brings the ultrasmurfs along the washed up wordbearers get the hint. Because you have to admit Papa smurf did do a good job with his part of the universe. But I think that he sometimes underestimates how emotional his sons are. Lorgar takes it all to personal instead of seeing the big picture. I mean its not like Lorgar is giving it a chance to reflect on his past life and maybe take a critical angle to look at things. So instead of having a Aha-effect he just sees the disgrace and feels pummeld.
Beside that does the emperor really show divinity? i mean this legion worshipped the Emperor, they would have kneeled anyway in his allmighty presence. So he might played around a little bit with his jedimindtricks but i mean its not like they really would fought against him and why would they anyway.
So even if the emperor came and pretty much did nothing they prolly would have made a same story out it in their blindness. For example: wow the emperor just came alone without legion without anything , so brave , so powerfull, so might and so on. guess thats the problem our brothers of the holy inquisition are facing every day.
They wordbearers are pretty much very unprofessional in the job of masskilling and get caught up within their emotions and the problem of explaining everything with a higher entity. damn religion :)
Big E probably things he´s done a good job , done by the book. But well Big E was never prepared to be a father , hes human and he makes mistakes . I mean u gotta understand he got 20 sons and they even got stolen, think thats a pretty traumatizing occasion, even for the Emperor. :P
sry for the long post, i got hyped ^^
@@tophgettho One of the greatest failures of the Emperor I think is that he is so logical that he is unable to connect emotionally with other beings, including his primarchs, at least on the emotional level many of them needed him to. And being unable to connect emotionally, he was also unable to understand how big a role these emotions would play in how his sons viewed him and his actions. Even among his sons who were loyal to him, there were those who still questioned wondered how he saw them.
Stannis Baratheon: Bend the knee or i'll destroy you
Daenerys Targaryen: bend the knee and join me or refuse and die
Emperor of mankind:yall muthafuckers ain't got a choice in the matter ya'll will kneel and like it.
Michael Kean
The Emperor Approves this Message.
Lol.
>purges 2 legions, redacting their existence from history and mind-wiping them from some primarch minds
>knows existence of conceptual entities in a dimension of energy, doesn’t tell anyone
“It is the imperium of Man, the empire of humanity, enlightened and saved by the truth”
It is more for omission than lies
Ironic very ironic
"Truth" = Lies the Emperor prefers to Truth. (aka mechanicus is ok to have religion, cause they important!)
The Truth would've been that religions are primitive tools, and humanity outlived them.
The solution would've been to announce yourself as a great existence, but not as a god.. which he is basicly starting to be at this point.
In short, once again, fuck the little man. The Emperor is the same as all the tyrants before. He was just better at it.
Facts will invariably defeat fictions. Refusing to allow "faith" to exist next to facts was how the emperor operated. If the emperor chose to conceal facts, he would have logical reason to.
It is the directive of the primarchs to understand this and obey accordingly. Lorgar chose not to and paid the price.
The heresy was always about choice versus consequence and the galaxy still pays for those choices made.
A shame the example of the eldar's misdeeds was never used to inspire wisdom in humans.
If the Emperor was two thing personnified, it would be hypocrisy and overconfidence. He _cannot_ be aware of everything. If not even the gods can't, how could he ? My guess is that Big E. is merely pretending to be omniscient to keep everyone together.
I'll be honest, the way he dealt with Lorgar is probably by far my biggest "what the heck, Emprah?" moment.
Not expecting Lorgar to revolt after the public humiliation of his legion, his beliefs and himself AND the destruction of his proudest achievement is to me one of the densest decision in all Warhammer 30-40K... that is, if the Heresy wasn't a case of severe "Just as Planned!", which I almost believe it was.
Not that I don't think Lorgar made a few bad decisions but, you know... he was right.
Not to mention he let Lorgar do his thing for like 100 years before taking action.
@@Greatkingrat88 well, you folks misunderstand the prime reason for the rebuke, it was not because of religion but because lorgar was lagging behind the other legions in the crusade for choosing to convert people rather than to dominate them by force. When the censure happened, a few years of lull kinda washed over lorgar's sector then they suddenly went to a conquering spree, becoming the fastest legion to expand the great crusade.
Given such an grand increase of productivity, why would the emperor think anything is wrong? He rebuked lorgar for playing "peacemaker" rather than conqueror and after the rebuke lorgar became one hell of a conqueror, in his eyes that's a success.
@@newtonia-uo4889 Empy let them spread religion for a century before finally stepping in, and publicly humiliating them- you'd think that he would make the progress of the second largest legion more of a priority than that. This was just bad management on the emperor's part, plain and simple.
@@Greatkingrat88 Oh, you are talking about the time before the rebuke, yeah the emperor didn't show any kind of aversion to what lorgar was doing even during that one month of in your face worship.
So lorgar was rightfully pissed off when the emperor suddenly rebuked him.
@@newtonia-uo4889 Pretty much. If empy had shown just a bare minimum of tact, it might have turned out better.
I'd say Magnus from If the Emperor Had a Text-to-Speech Device had it right here. On the one hand Emps says he isn't a god. And on the other hand, he says this while doing every conceivable thing that defines a Gnostic god.
In fact, just about the only thing that separated Emps from the traditional gnostic version of a god at that point was that he did not derive strength from worship- which he then proceeded to do after getting put on the Golden Throne.
Also, he offered no supporting arguments. He just tried to get his way by bullying and humiliating Lorgar- not nice, but absolutely consistent with Old Testament godlike behavior.
The logical consequence of his actions toward Lorgar at this point was not that Lorgar would stop believing in his divinity, but rather that Lorgar would still believe in it- and come to hate him for lying about it.
Which he did.
Completely agree here
I can kinda get where he got that kind of behavior since he came from Anatolia(ancient turkey)
Perfectly said. The Emperor says one thing, does the opposite, and then wonders why his sons resent him.
Great sentence that mate: The logical consequence of his actions toward Lorgar at this point was not that Lorgar would stop believing in his divinity, but rather that Lorgar would still believe in it- and come to hate him for lying about it.
@@earltheartist3697 There is no (ancient tyrkey), as Asia Minor was Eastern Roman Empire for 1k (one thousand years) before the turks's onslaught and extermination of autochthonous people there.
Makes 150k Space marines kneel with a whisper.
I ain't a god bruh.
Literally makes them fly away with a psy shout.
I ain't a god bruh.
Radiates energy so powerfull that even looking in his direction blinds you.
I am just a man.
Word Bearers Legion and their Primarch : Rly nigga?
It's a powerful message. "I'm not a god" after doing all that. He's not a god. He's a man. He's what all humans could be if they'd just get their shit together for a few millennia. Not gods. Far more powerful than gods. Specifically, more powerful than the four most powerful gods in setting.
The Emperor spoke the truth here, Lorgar just couldn't figure out that gods are not inherently superior to men.
@MrGuvnah Yes, the path of human evolution is, according to Big E himself, leading humanity to become an even greater psychic species than the Eldar. It's why the emperor was so focused on the human webway project, because the nascent human psykers would be too powerful to ignore if they traveled conventionally through the warp.
@MrGuvnah wait... you're NOT one of those?
@@gama343 I have to disagree. The Emperor of Mankind is no mere man, no matter how much he might insist otherwise. Even Gulliman has recently come to realize this and has been reading the Lectitio Divinatus to learn whether it might have a grain of truth in it. As for your claim that the Emperor is stronger than the gods of the setting, I find this claim is ultimately yet to be determined and quite questionable. Horus, a being who was charged with the energies of all four deities, was able to to put Big E on his thrown, and he only wielded a fraction of what the Chaos gods posses. True, Big E was not fighting at his best and that on a good day he probably would been able to kill Horus without being mortally wounded, but still, I think the Chaos Gods have alot more muscle than you give them credit for.
@MrGuvnah No, rather humanity could become like the emperor without the sacrificing of so many beings to make one. The shamans sacrifice was just a shortcut. That was the whole point as it was necessary at the time.
The Emperor was fantastic here!
I mean, can you imagine how set-back my brothers and I would have been if he had displayed any kind of tact in this scenario? No golden boy to deliver the Heresy to us on a silver platter, yeesh. Heck, we'd still be stuck abusing Xenos in the Maelstrom or messing with stone-age T'au.
Really, full props to the anathema on this one, if there's anyone who could FUBAR a species transcendence, it's gotta be him.
I might even let up the phantom itching for a few days just thinking about how wonderful this all was.
I actually have to laugh at the fact that Big-E, in trying to starve the Chaos Gods by burning Monarchia, probably just handed them their greatest servant on a silver platter.
Heresy
"Kneel." All 100,000 of you, because I think it.
And I'm not a god
This my friends is where the Heresy really starts. And you will need more than a heavy bolter for this Heresy. Erebus and Kor Phaeron would never have been able to turn Lorgar bad had the Emperor not been so heavy handed in his censure. Even Leman Russ thought this was a bad idea.
People should check out part 2 of the Death of Hope, really well done scene of the Word Bearer legion forced to its knees in the ashes of Monarchia.
Lorgar doesn't listen bruh.. His dad is in front of him telling him to stop and he's still arguing.
Much as I dont like Lorgar, as with many of the traitor promarchs the emperor really did not know how to handle them
Im Not a GoD JuST a MaN
says the immortal, perpetual, immeasurably powerful being, as he psychically prostrates an entire army of the most powerful warriors in the galaxy. all doing this remotely, as well
And remember, there’s definitely no demons, gods or any kind of spiritual entity and absolutely no one should look too closely at that whole warp and psyker thing. The emperor said so.
I'm not a god, but kneel before me and bask in my glory. Good one Big E.
Kneel and btw you have no choice my phenomenal psychic powers will oblige you to obey but just remember I'm not a god 🙄
After reading Dark Imperium: Plague War, this was mirrored when Guillman was disciplining frater Matthew.
The difference is that Matthew is still as loyal as ever and still wants to convert Gulliman 😂
Lorgar told him everything, he is a god in all but name
@Jona A god by definition is an immortal almost or allpowerful creative/destructive being. The Emperor is not the ultimate of human potential because he wasn't human when he was born to begin with. You have to be human to be human. Neither were the primarchs. They are immortal superhumans with some human characteristics.
The Emperor is a tragic figure because for all his knowledge he is still stupid.
@Jona This isn't going anywhere
He isn't a god at all, he's far better than that. He's more powerful than any of the gods in the setting, and requires none of the worship. He has a potent physical form that allows him to interact with and project his power into the material realm far better than any Avatar of the Eldar pantheon, or daemonhost of Chaos. The Emperor is not a god, he is something that creates gods. He is a man.
@@gama343 That's a pretty tasty word salad. But you people still have no idea what the word "God" or the words "just a man" mean. So until you learn that, you can't understand the nature of the Emperor.
@Viktor Samoja That would be true if the Emperor was born as a basic human like you and me and then evolved into what he was during the crusade. But he wasn't, all the groundwork for his immortality and power was layed before he was even born. He didn't evolve, he was made to be.
The general definition of "man" you people accept is basically the lowest criteria possible, to you people a man is anything that looks and sounds like us.
"While all others succeed and bring prosperity to the Imperium" Excuse me ? Kurze, Angron and Perturabo left horrible messes in their wake. Lorgar was slow, but like Guilliman, he was focusing on long term success. That is quite the double standard.
At this point I think 2 and 11 did the naughties which each other and got purged for that. Considering your examples above, plus Lorgar and Magnus, with neither of their being dealt with in that way, I can't think of any other reason.
Word bearers are the second most numerous chapter. Big E is making an analogy...
I loved pre heresy lorgar but what he has become is despicable. Definitely one of the most loyal and devoted primarchs, such a shame to see him fall.
*Lorgar
He was betrayed by his own father. The filling is almost undesirable. It is a mixture of noble disgust, true rage, boundless lamentation, sacred contempt, and riches desire for just vengeance.
The first heretic was one of the best book imo.
Imagine this as a dinner table scenario when Big E chastises Lorgar, Magnus, or any of his sons really.
Big E - I am not a god boys. Now eat your food and no more worship or psyker shenanigans from either of you.
Lorgar - Dad, you have a literal halo around your head rn.
Magnus - And you're not even really here anyways. You're just using your psyker abilities to project your image from the garage...we could help in there you know.
Big E - DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO!
Underrated comment
I'm really glad I came across this channel... I'm 40 years old, and have been a fan of the 40k universe since my parents bought me the old "Space Marine" boxed game when I was about 13 years old.
Through that, and the old White Dwarf magazines I got into 40K "EPIC" but eventually stopped as back then in Australia, especially as a teenager there was nobody to really play with.
So I turned to the books, first the original "Space Marine" & also the now retconned "Inquisitor".
In short, it has always been something of a passion, and over the years between things like the Dawn of War video games and different books & lore websites I kept in touch with it.
Then when the Black Library released the Horus Heresy I drove back in again, buying the 1st half of the series and even contemplating getting back into gaming itself (though I really miss the Epic miniatures... having army's of hundredsof marines, dozens of different Mech units and even multiple titans in a single army was, well, epic).
But now I'm adulting I have to balance my time & finances and with work and life's responsibilities I had to make a choice...I could only afford to really invest in 1 or 2 passions, and I chose Motorcycles, competitive esports (sim racing... another compromise as I can't afford a real second car for track use) & bunny rabbits. Yes rabbits.
So I buy & read a book maybe once or twice a year, but I haven't got the time or money to keep up with all the cool stuff Games Workshop & the Black Library put out.
I found channels such as One Mind Syndicate & 40k Theories but this one seems to have the most passion about it, and concentrates so well on the most poignant moments & events.
Because of this channel I get to have a glimpse and taste of what I love but don't have the time or money to keep up with.
So this whole short novel of a comment is to simply say thank you for your work. I've started and run TH-cam channels for work (Marketing & media) and am about to launch my own (a gaming channel based mostly on sim racing, though I'll be driving and reviewing irl cars, interviewing racing drivers, covering races & other events etc... think a cross between a Twitch stream and Top Gear)...I know how much work goes into each episode.
So, thank you. I don't know if you'll ever read this but I'm sincerely thankful to you for what you do here.
Thank you for the kind words 😊
Biologically Immortal, Comparatively All Powerful Individual: Genetically engineers a super soldier to possess strength and charisma only matched by his fanaticism, then punishes said super soldier for behaving as intended and being smart enough to put two and two together and recognize that his creator was in fact a god.
Seems legit.
Even back then The Emperor knew he was technically a God i think, he just didn't want humans to be religious anymore since he was aware of The Chaos Gods n the crazy shit they get up 2, he wanted to starve them i think
Yes inquisitor this one here.
@@banneduser5187 well do the Orks feed Khorne or Gork and Mork?
You're going to be one of the biggest 40k channels brother, keep at it. I love the way you narrate it :D
Amen! Just found this channel and love it
I think the reason why the Emperor didn't pick a different primarch like Vulkan or Sanguinius, is because they would likely outright refuse such harsh methods. Whereas those like Angron or Mortarion would go too far. The Ultramarines were the same size as the Word Bearers and what they were supposed to be. Plus Gulliman would be both tactful but not harsh. And even he regrets the deed.
I felt sorry for Lorgar here!
The act that would lead him to the path of chaos.
Fuck Lorgar! Trillions would die because of this Bible thumper.
We bear lorgar brother, for our genefather, we continue the holy work of humanity's ascension
@@SeanHenderson Everybody dies
@@SeanHenderson The Emperor deserved to be betrayed by Lorgar. He lied to him, this Imperial truth was a lie to begin with and he punished him for not upholding a lie. Btw he was right, he forged the most loyal worlds, which would have came handy againts the chaos, but the Emperor fucked up again.
The depiction of the Custodians and their spears being in hands that would never tremble is by far the best depiction ive ever heard. I love it.
Good Leaders know "Commend public ,rebuke private" ... this was public humiliation ...
Also from only 2 sentences i start hatin the smurfs !
You have to see the irony, "Iam just a man" talking to his son across the mass expanse of space, clad in golden armour in a more than angelic vision ! What is more God like than that ?
It doesn't matter. He asked NOT to be worshipped, and Lorgar disobeyed.
@@Ares99999 declaring yourself The Emperor of man is insisting on being worshipped!
@@Duppyman695 No it doesn't. Being a leader doesn't equal being a god. Nor dose him wanting to lead his species into a better future mean that he wants to be worshiped by them. Don't be ridiculous.
@@carlospomares3225 You dont think The Emperor planed all this, including being worshiped as a God?????
@@Duppyman695 why would he plan for all his progress to be undone and have himself locked in the Golden Throne *in agony for 10,000 years* ? No, I don't think he planned it.
Makes 100,000 space marines kneel with a mere thought. The Emperor saying he isn’t a god is the most ridiculous part of this situation.
I love that the more recent writing has gone so deep into how the Emperor looks upon his sons and how he thinks of them.
We've seen him have this warm, loving, proud look quite a few times now.
Particularly when he finds Sanguinis, talking with Dorn and Vulkan when preparing to defend Terra, looking upon Jaghatai who was standing next to his father staring out into the void after they had argued.
Hell he speaks to Kurze with warm, gentle voice trying to calm his anxieties before the assassin arrived to kill Kurze.
These stories should effectively end the debate as to whether he loves his sons or not.
I'd say it's a resounding yes. He just sometimes doesn't deal with his sons and their bs properly.
Angron and Mortarion come to mind.
The Emperor always leaves a choice I have noticed. He never outright forces his Primarchs to do his bidding. True that the 100k Word Bearers were forced to kneel, but that might have been just the sheer weight of the Emperors might. Should he have willed it, he could have crushed Logar in that very instant, and thus removing one of the key seeds of Chaos. His power so bright and yet why does he hold back on some of the most key aspects? I honestly think its because he does not believe himself to be a god but a just and fair Emperor. Because if he wanted to be a God, would that make him any better then the God's of Chaos? Who force obedience and never leave a true choice. Merely tricks and lies on which to follow, but never truly choose allow tgose to choose for themselves. There is a fine line between God and Ultimate truth. And Wolf, thank you for the amazing video and contemplation.
That's nonsense. The emperor is a dictator, and he's eradicated at least one primarch that displeased him. "Do my bidding or be destroyed" is a gun to your head; it's not a choice in any meaningful way.
Dont be silly. Of course he didnt destroyed them and gave them another chance. What sort of idiot destroy an entier legion of nearly invincible warrior because they are too loyal?
Angron would disagree with that assessment.
He left no choice to the church of the thunder stone. He came, he saw, he culturally obliterated. The great crusade was an armed invasion of several worlds to force his ideology. He left no choice to his primarchs about chaos, he never told them about it, much less the Imperium. So when his Imperium was left to make all the true choices that shape humanity's history, they falter because the Emperor used to take those away before they even knew they existed. He forgot that an organization that completely depends on one man's vision to function will crumble once he cannot hold office.
A father gives his gifted son Lego to build with. The son builds a monument to honor his dad. Dad has another son that the first son dislikes, smash the Lego monument. Dad chastises the son who built the monument, in front of the brother that smashed his Legos . Gee, I wonder if that son is gonna hold a grudge?
It's like Rogal Dorn said. The Emperor could make entire armies kneel before him using nothing but haikus.
Just read this part. One hell of a beginning to a book.
I enjoyed the word bearers omnibus, seriously felt bad for Lorgar. Gets raised by priests, becomes a priest, see's father perform divine feats, father claims "sorry son, not a god"
The emperor, seeing the objective, but not the trajectory.
Lorgar Aurelian, seeing the trajectory, but not the objective.
This is the moment that I truly began to despise the emperor of mankind in 30k, this and possibly the story The Last Church. Of all the primarchs Lorgar loved the emperor more than any other, and the Emperor basically spat in his face for it, amd denounced all his efforts as a "poison" against his "truth". This moment, at least in my eyes, proved that the emperor was almost certianly no better than those that had come before him, that he was little more than an arrogant fool who deluded himself into thinking he was right and everyone else was wrong and stupid, and truly deserves every ounce of pain, agony, and suffering that he is forced to endure.
That's pretty much why nearly every other Perpetual except Malcador and Ollanius Pius (who just sort of lived a quiet life) rebelled because they believed The Emperor was setting Himself up to be the worst tyrant in history.
And the fact that THAT wasn't a wake up call for Him shows, He really isn't immune to arrogance.
Also, I find it rich that He denounces Lorgar's faith, that made people feel fulfilled, as "Poison" when Curze is busy inventing new crimes against humanity, Mortarion ruins every world he touches and Angron is pilling bodies, enemy, ally and civilian, like it's an Olympic Sport, and he doesn't do shit.
And NO. Don't tell me, "He sent Russ to deal with Angron." He PERSONALLY came to Lorgar, whereas He sent Russ to deal with Angron and didn't even bother to reprimand him after he told Russ to Fuck off and that if he could, he would sever The Emperor's head. How is THAT not worse than Lorgar spreading a faith that has now been proven to hurt Chaos?
Combine that with the fact that he surrounded Himself with his Golden Yes-Men, it's pretty clear Emps needed to humble Himself at little. Okay, A LOT.
...Although, none of it would excuse what Lorgar would go on to do, selling humanity out to the four Reality Tumors.
@@randomcenturion7264 Oh I'm not saying it excuses Lorgar for what he did at all. Although it does make me wonder, if He hadn't humiliated and rejected Lorgar here, would Lorgar have done what he did later.regarding chaos? Cause I just get this feeling this moment is what shook Lorgars faith in the Emperor and set him on the road to the Pilgrimage amd Chaos.
And I agree 100% with your other point. The Emperor totally didn't need to deal with this personally. There were tons of other places his personal attention was needed more. Like at most just tell Lorgar "hey, mind toning down the religious stuff? Maybe have me shown to be a savior/hero figure instead of a god?" Instead of destroying everything. If anything I would say that Angron or Kurze needed the Emperors personal attention a LOT more than Lorgar building a few cathedrals (I know it was more than that just simplifying for the sake of argument).
Personally it just seems to me that this moment and others like it indicate that the Emperor really brought the heresy on himself.
@@beewitha50cal Exactly. I mean, which son sounds like they need some personal reprimands more:
Lorgar: I love Dad and everything he's doing so much I want the whole Galaxy to respect Him like the God He is.
Emps: Oh Hell Naw!
Angron: I'm a walking PR Nightmare for the Imperium. I waste thousands of loyal astartes lives out of pettiness. And the MOMENT I get the chance, I am going to take The Emperor's head and use it as a chamber pot!
Emps:...Meh, he seems fine. At least he isn't religious.
the last church was so good
@OK-hl6qd God I knowwww. I love the last church so damn much. Oddly enough another story that cements my "Emps is a moron" theory.
You and your videos really are a gift to the community. Thank you
I think one of the things that the black library gets right about the Emperor and his sons, at least from the perspective that they represent different aspects of himself, is that each of the primarch's represent a portion of him that is taken to an extreme. Yet untempered by the emotions that are balanced by other thoughts, feelings, and experiences that the Emperor can draw on due to what has happened to him over the course of his life. Which makes Lorgar are the more tragic in that he is the part of the Emperor who needs to believe in something greater than himself; but lacking the other pieces that the Emperor has learned to draw upon inorder to prevent himself from falling into nihilism.
But that is also where the Emperor made a mistake by bringing Guilliman, as opposed to Sangunius. Guilliman represents Lorgar's complete opposite, whereas Sangunius embody's some aspect of the Emperor's being different from others while still having compassion for them despite never quite 'being' one of them no matter how hard he tries. Sangunius may have been able to help Lorgar to understand how he and his legion could be more Guilliman like while still being true to what they desperately wanted to be.
So in a way, (at least to my head cannon) a lot of the Primarch's greatest disagreements stem from not having the appropriate intermediaries in the room to help them mediate the thornier aspects of themselves.
^While all others bring prosperity to the Imperium" Ummm....Perturabo ? Kurze ? Angron ? Seriously, is the Emperor that clueless ? Lorgar was slow, but he left a solidly prosperous and loyal populace behind.
I know right? Is he high? Lorgar BUILT worlds. They were loyal, peaceful and prosperous.
It just shows how strong Emps delusional hatred of faith was, that he considered a world of butchered corpses (Angron) radioactive and toxic waste (Mortarion) rubble (Perturabo) or very, very bitter survivors (Konrad) to be better.
The same peaceful worlds that immediately start worshipping Chaos when the Heresy struck? The same worlds where Erebus perverted the already delusional teachings of his primarchs?The same world that got their religion torn from them by a fanatic and complied only through brainwashing and not reason? That's the worlds your talking about or you confused them with the worlds of Ultramar, Prospero and even Fulgrims home planet?
Sitting out on the patio, listening to this, and smoking a cigar.
I own the audiobook. And I can say this with 100% certainty. You narrated this better than the audiobook did.
Honestly, the Emperor asked for the great heracy...
Ah May Favorite Channel , know I can Relax, Good Work From the Begging,May Emperor Bless your Channel 😀 !!!,P.S. Continue them coming 😀!!!.
Been a Fan for Many Moons now, Awesome to see ye Breaking 100k and Bringing your Fantastic Narrative ability, with an eloquence an an inherent ability, to not only sift and root out Meaning's & Details often Overlooked, or not giving the Gravity their Situation deserves, Ye single handedly Won Me to the God-Emperor of Mankind whom Loved, and felt as Close to a Father as a Being of his Magnitude is capable, but Bring Out his Humanity and Light, I believe Novels such as Master of Mankind and the Presentation of a Cold/Distant/Incapable of Feeling Emotionally Man, whom not Only Never Loved the Primarch's but saw Them as Nothing but Tools, to be Discarded and Tossed aside when they've Accomplished giving Him the Galaxy, which He planned to Rule in Cold Logic/Reason/Agnostic/Human Galaxy of Which he will indefinitely reign as Master, Uncompromising, Unrelenting, Cold and incapable of Empathy as the 👀 of the Primarches told a completely and irreconcilably different Tune of the Big E, his 🕯️, Majesty, and Inspiring Wonderment, of which Men and Demi-Gods would Gladly Follow to the ends of the Universe or Death straight in the 👁️, and the Giving of One's Life without a second of Doubt makes One 🤔▪️🥃-Cheers
For a man trying to communicate that he is not a god, he sure made himself look like a god
I love how we see the seeds of heresy sewn just in the instant I read. Some hearts resisted the order to kneel.
They wanted to protect the monarchia, lorgar's weakness is his love for humanity.
@@newtonia-uo4889 logar had no love for humanity. his love was to the emperor as a god alone. humanity was nothing but slaves to him. with the goal of having them all worship him. in the end the traitor got exactly what he wanted.
@@texasallstar6969 the man literally wanted to fight his father, HIS GOD, in defence of the poor people of monarchia. Lorgar loved humans, when the daemon was showing him prophecy of the future, it constantly referred to the fate of humanity because it knew that lorgar's main interest was in the destiny of humanity than anything else.
At the one hand I feel like the Emperor was too harsh with them but on the other hand, he is speaking to genetically engineered super soldiers so he shouldn't have to sugar coat his words. They failed him BUT he also gave them a second chance. "Let this be the rebirth of your legion". They could have redeemed themselves but they chose not to.
They're adults so he was speaking to them as such, at leas that was the way I saw it. They are his kids but they're also full grown and living lives on their own.
They were reborn though to what the emperor wanted. Fast and efficient conquerors.
The Emperor: I’m not mad, I’m just disappointed..
Lorgar was right
And the Emperor chose Guilliman on purpose. He knew what he was doing. He has always known what he was doing.
Ahh, the good old "The Emperor wanted the heresy to happen" theory. From time to time it does seem true.
@@Kareszkoma he wanted "something" to happen. Not the way it did though
Makes sense though. When Humanity is finally united what will be with the Primarchs and the Space Marines? Their existence is at that point redundant. While Space Marines are great and all, but with better technology you can make armor, suits, that are stronger, more durable, faster, and better equiped. Primarchs might have might, and capabilities no else, but technology surpasses them, and at that point.. why do they exist? I fear their destiny is one with the Thunder Warriors.
And this is what leads to half the space marines legions falling to Chaos
Lorgar was right, humanity will always need faith and humility
Faith and humility rarely go together.
I'm full of humility, all I need is an eternal paradise because I'm the chosen and everyone else is wrong and needs to be punished.
@@texasallstar6969
They do in my experience, The most truly faithful people I know, you would never even know they were part of a religion. They are quiet, meek, and mild.
Screaming zealots are not faithful they are faithless. They believe God is powerless without them.
All Powerful, does not need anyone, it just invites them along for the ride sometimes.
@SwordSorcery2020 you see. The supposed evil in religion, is actually just the evil of humanity wearing the mask of a god. The ultimate frustration of the atheist is that they will purge the world of religion, and find it entirely unchanged, men never needed permission to be evil, gods were just as convenient an excuse as insanity or simple blood lust.
@Þaymrick Ólafursson.
Yes it is,
But in order to make an argument like that "against" religion, you must concede that God exists. But if God exists, and if God exists, at least the God described by the abrahamic Faith's, then trying to say that the individual who created all life, designed the very notion of life, then cannot take that life away because we personally find it objectionable is nonsense.
There are many other actors we as human beings simply ignore in the moral question:
The earth does not consent to our existence or our abuses.
The living flora and fauna we haphazardly slaughter because we simply can, or for our own convenience do not consent to our rule willingly.
Even our own physical bodies, which we abuse, use, damage and destroy of our own pleasures, do not consent to our actions willingly, infact it crys out in a voice we can so easily hear called pain, but we ignore it because of a chemical rush.
Daily the whole earth may beg, plead, and whimper to almighty God for our utter destruction, and this is before we consider the crimes we do to each other, or even the insults and crimes we commit against him.
If such a God does exist, it is more astonishing that he has restrained himself from our utter obliteration for so long.
And if God does not exist, then he has committed no crimes, and all we have seen is lies and the actions of men. Thus blaming god, or even the notion of god, is childish.
Leman Russ initially thought the Emperor was a God and his people thought that they had died and entered the afterlife when they joined the Great Crusade.
Honestly I would enjoy reading a conversation between Russ and Lorgar on the subject of their father, different as they are it could have been something for them to bond over.
Or even with Jaghati who refused to abandon his people's old ways.
The Emperor tips his fedora so hard that it knocks primarchs off their feet.
Uuuhhh.... The Emperor is lying there. Religion as much as I hate it, saved humanity many times over. It lead humanity to order, to forming social concract, to work, to standarts, to laws. It is primitive, but it is not useless, or just a curse. That is a clear LIE.
He says most of this, because he is acting ignorant and hateful towards religion. He has his own flawed truth. Damn. Good writting. Humans are not perfect, meaning that he is a demigod and still only human.
I think the first heretic was one of my favorite books. Argel tal is one of the best characters in the series.
For the emperor's insisting that he's not a God he definitely goes through alort of effort to look and act like one
The First Heretic was the first time i basked on the full glory and magnificence of the Emperor, i still remember tears of emotion were rolling while reading , His majesty but also His cruelty, and that’s what makes the character of the Emperor so beautiful, his perfect imperfections. Blessed be the Master of Mankind, beloved by all
Lorgar: 'You're the best, Dad!'
Emperor: 'Nah, but yeah'.
The emperor even using the word "truth" is cringeworthy, in hindsight.
The Corpse Emperor brought the Rebellion on himself, had he handled Lorgar Differently none of what followed would have happened.
This makes one wonder if that "lack of good bedside manner" the Emperor showed is what drove the 2nd and the 11th Primarchs over the edge.
Imagine Lorgar explaining this situation to his psychiatrist
A simple example of mankind’s failure in both sides...
One of my favourite scenes from the novels. Though the way the Emperor dealt with this situation you can't really be surprised the Word Bearers fell to Chaos. Finally when you consider the Emperor's powers he's quite clearily a god in all but in all but name after ten thousand years of being a rotting corpse he still refuses to die.
The entire Horus Heresy is really a story about a man not knowing how to be a father.
Khashmonet spot on
Big Emps' Bizarre Adventures of Fatherhood
To break their faith without retraining them, it led to them looking to fill that whole.
I would say Angrons conquests count as failures too and Mortarion sometimes.
Nice touch with the Children of the Omnissiah
The Big E should have highlighted to Lorgar the difference between having god-like power and being a god.
Did the emperor kill all of the inhabitants in the city as well?
Fantasy based worlds (like that of 40k) often need a little artistic leeway, and generally I'm happy to oblige, for doing so often makes for more interesting lore & stories.
However, I frequently struggle with the rampant and endless stupidity portrayed by the Emperor. He's supposed to be this (nearly) all powerful, all knowing, ancient being of endless wisdom. Capable of tremendous and impossible feats.
Yet, he often has almost NO common sense.
A.) The truth can burn, and not everyone is strong enough to endure that pain. Tearing down delusion can lead to resentful and spiteful people. I've learned that the hard way.
B.) To be an effective leader, you must be aware of how your actions/words effect those under your command. You must be aware of how they feel.
You dare question the will of the god emperor, HERESY !!!!!
Maybe the emperor had them kneel to show them exactly what worshipful deference actually is, funny how Argel Tal saw it as an insult forced or not.
The Emperor might have been right if his Imperial Truth hadn't been a lie.
His Imperial Truth defeated the last priest of Old Terra in the Last Church so at the very least it's rationality was strong enough to kill the old religions. The problem is that throughout the establishment of the Imperium of Man, there were instances where his actions were irrational (perhaps necessary) which later caused his sons to drift further apart until the Chaos Gods took full advantage of the situation.
@TookALevelInBadass I agree that the Chaos gods are false Gods. They don't even predate humanity, the Emperor is older than all of them. They arent Gods with a capital G but they are small g gods. The 40k lore doesn't actually answer the question of whether there is a true God who created the universe, but there are beings who are powerful enough to count as gods in the pagan sense, the Emperor himself is also such a being.
Also, the Emperor's Imperial Truth was still a lie in that it doesn't address the existence of Chaos at all, but seeks to hide it. However you look at it the Emperor was lying about the spiritual realities of the universe. People do in fact possess souls, and the strict materialism he is proposing is not the whole truth.
@@neoth8647 but his imperial truth didn't defeat the last priest though. The debate was a stand still until the emperor just burned the church down.
One of relics which is a clock that foretold the coming of apocalypse actually started working when the emperor arrogantly refused to internalize what the priest was saying.
Not only the imperial truth is a lie, but the emperors argument about religion is defeatend when he does the exact same things to prove how religions arent good for humanity
I can't expect, even with knowing what this man will do, that Lorgar is doing anything in the way of willful wrong. That's what makes it so tragic.
Brother Rho, greetings!! Love your channel!! I look forward every time for your next video. Keep up the good work. Now, I think that The Emperor made a few mistakes here. First, I agree, He should have taken Horus and not Guilliman, due to the fact that Horus was Warmaster. Guilliman for all intents holds the same rank or position if you will as Lorgar. This way The Emperor is showing a united front among the Command structure by having Horus, the Warmaster, at his side, which brings his next mistake. In the military there is a golden rule, you praise in public and reprimand in private. The Emperor should have met with Lorgar alone to address this issue. By doing it in public The Emperor could have ruined Lorgar's authority of command over his legion. If you think about it, it's a trickling effect. This situation and potentially the heresy could have been adverted if The Emperor had share his intentions from the beginning with all his sons, in other words been transparent instead of keeping secrets from them. In my opinion this is proof that for The Emperor, his sons were just tools in his grand plan for the Imperium. Like Guilliman stated, The Emperor let his sons loved him and made them believe that he loved them back. Anyways, can't wait for your next video! Thank you!
I get the soldiers anger and rage but they should have heard him. "This is what worship is." He is showing them what they were asking for in their world.
I am puzzled as to why Lorgar was deemed fit to lead his legion in the first place.
The Emperor is wrong.
He denies being a God and yet, at all times, he acts like one. He demands unquestioning loyalty, he enforces compliance with absolute power and he decides upon life and death with but a word. He stands among the human dead whose life he has decided to take, himself far removed from humanity, and calls his actions the Imperium of Man.
He is in fact a deity. And he himself, having lived through so much of human history should know this. Unfortunately this is one of those cases where writers bias and/or incompetence has led the storytelling down. They are so fixated on the monotheistic image of the abrahamic one true God, that they've completely ignored the fact, that most human religions throughout history are far removed from this concept, including the ones in the culture he would have been up in.
In fact, the irony is, that the 40k setting itself is pantheistic but seemingly ascribes only one possible image of godhood unto the emperor, even in his own mind.
While it is a great scene in the book, ultimately it is a letdown. With a bit more imagination, the discussion between the Emperor and Lorgar could have been far more interesting.
I think the emperor did this right it’s the word bearers fault for not taking the fucking hint.
The primarchs are just tired of the Emperor lying to their faces as if that is ok. They feel as if they are of high enough station to know and understand the actual truth. So the Emperor found it best to run his Imperium using lies, decete, and convenient truths to his own ends. Of corse it was for the betterment of mankind and our situation amongst the stars, however, these stories prove that he is every bit as flawed as his flawed primarchs, only more powerful and in charge of everything. So, you see, his mistakes or strategic errors are potentially the most potent kind that exsist anywhere.
My question is; why didn't the Emporer show this amount of psychic power when he was fighting Horus, If he can make lorgar heed his word without even trying, why didn't he put all his effort in into fighting Horus with his psychic power?
Horis gets a major power up by chaos gods. Its in one of the books and its good read.
The thing about The Horus Heresey that makes me sad is that the whole thing could have been prevented it Lorgar ever went through the thought process of "If my father, The Emperor Beloved by All, is a god, what kind of god is he?" Because if he had, the response would be "A god of Order. For his highest values are truth, science, and the conformity of the whole species to a single vision." Which is naturally followed by "How does one worship w god of Order?" The answer is "Obedience." If a god of Order gives you a command, than the orderly thing to do is obey. If you're truly sure that The Emperor Beloved by All is a god, you follow his commands as exactly as you can, because that is what is most pleasing to him. You trust in the Order of his plan, in the Order of his wisdom, in the Order of his Will. It is so sad that Lorgar can know his father so well but be so IGNORANT! Thor god of thunder, Ra god of the sun, Ares god of War. In every religious system deities have a portfolio that they look over. The Emperor had even told him how to specifically make him happy. But Lorgar just ignored that and assumed that he knew better than his god, about what his god wanted and how his god wanted to be worshipped. Ha. And they say Horus was as the one with too much pride. I get that without the mistakes they all made the 40k universe would be very different, and this is w prequel. But it really does surprise me how stupid the Primarchs were. Then again that does make them human, despite all the tremendous science and sorcery used to make them post/trans human, they are at the end of the day, human, stupid and flawed.
I disagree. A God of Order, at his most fundamental, is still a god, and what he says will not change that fact. If a God of Order denies his godhood, than he is denying truth. Thus, that makes him a god who is a proponent of a lie. While a lie may further the purposes of Order, the lie is itself a figment of disorder, because a lie, by nature of being a lie, creates a disconnect between perception (what is said) and reality (the fact that the God of Order is a god). Just as it is said that a peace built on lies is no peace at all, order built on disorder is not order. Thus, you have a situation in which a God of Order is not merely using disorder, but actually sowing disorder, to further the purposes of order, which goes against his essential quality of seeking Order in all things.
Under this logic, Lorgar is left in a bind. To acknowledge the Emperor as the God of Order and thus follow his command of the Imperial Truth is to be complicit in the God of Order's betrayal of his own fundamental nature. Looking at the Emperor as a much more fundamental God, like a God of Creation or a God of Humanity can help avoid this trap.
@@7503funkymonkey I would argue that the Emperor is, as he stated, not actually a god. He is just a being whose personal power makes the distinction irrelevant. But, if he was to become one, his personality is that of a god of Order. Therefore if one venerated him as a god, and takes his personality into account, they should treat him as a god of Order and act accordingly. In other words, "Do what your father says because he says so!"
This is the problem with family - you can't just fire them :p
What is that music on the background, it sounds amazing.
I wonder what would happen to the Imperial truth if the Emperor were to ever return? Would the Emperor still maintain his belief that he is not a god and shouldn't be worshipped as such or would he embrace the fact that he is a god knowing how much he has sacrificed so much throughout the millenia after the heresy? There is so much to consider if he ever does. The last thing E-man would want is repeating the same mistakes that caused the Imperium to be in shamples in the first place.
I think he choose gillimun because like he said the wordbearers legion was the largest save the ultra marines, so if things went badly best to have a legion of compariable numbers that doesn't take to much away from the crusade it's self.
Kicking the house of eternal love ...no wonder they look elsewhere for a answer to their wants , needs and maybe the fact the peoples they've told story's of the Emporeor. THE emporeor should have virus bombed it !
I just got to this passage in the 30k book, Betrayer. Found it grimly hilarious and ironic that this entire event ended up fulfilling Lorgar's original goal of spreading the faith of the Emperor to the million worlds of the Imperium.
*Gods deceived and clashed and sought to advance their own dominions over their rivals’. Lorgar trusted none of their prophecies.
He’d even seen glimpses of potential futures where the Imperium came to worship the Emperor as a god. What would have to transpire in countless trillions of human hearts for that faith to ever take hold? The very faith Lorgar was chastised for spreading, the very beliefs he was punished for believing - how could mankind’s empire ever embrace their lord as a deity, after the XVII Legion had been humiliated for daring to claim such a truth?
He shook his head at the thought and sighed softly.*
Does anyone know the background song? Its so serene and peaceful
Do we know anything about what the unnamed primarchs did to deserve to be killed (if they were) and how that compares to what Logar did and him not receiving the same fate?
This is proof that the emperor is not a god he's fallible his intentions were right but did he ever butcher the execution
7:49 can't help but feel that this characters power scaling is off. I'm not sure. The demon formed by the first murder was beyond his power to destroy, but the full power of 4 chaos gods is bestable and he can do that but somehow still needed help killing off the Orks at Ullanor and was nearly killed by an ork warboss? What? Does the collective waaaagh power of the orks dull his strength or something?
Awesome
So, this is how it happened. I've heard about it, but never read the books myself.
Now that I know, I'm not sure how the Emperor could have done things any differently in this moment, despite the consequences afterwards.
Perhaps what he should have done was deprogram his son more thoroughly after finding him. After all, he took the time to have a lengthy chat with the Last Priest on Terra and almost succeeded in getting his point of view across. A wiser man would reflect on what he did wrong and consider other options, but the Emperor is so arrogant and firmly believes that his way is the only way.
I've considered this before, but I can't help but wonder if the Emperor was in a huge rush with the Great Crusade. He found his zealot of a son, gave him an army and sent him off. He of all people should have known what would happen, even without the powers of foresight that he "supposedly" has, especially with his views on religion.