@anirecapped. He's right though. The Emperor is a tyrant: Jaghatai thought so. Angron thought so, plenty of other primarchs thought so. Compared to many contemporary human civilizations, he was a regressive tyrant. I don't care if he was some sort of psychic godlike entity, he can kiss my fucking ass when he takes away human liberty. The Emperor is also hypocritical. He's said and done so many hypocritical things that I don't even feel the need to cite specifically one to get my point across. He's the only option in the modern setting because he made it that way. Not because there weren't other options.
@@inwit594Yeah, that was also that option where humanity destroys itself or remains splintered and wrecked by xenos. If a united imperium struggles against something like the Tyranids, how do you suppose divided worlda would hold up ?
@@lapantony Divided? That is partially what turned up and ended with half of the imperium's elite army starting the horus heresy. Despite the interventions that happened with chaos in the primarchs maturation, it in the end depended on emperor and his closest advisors' decision making into how to improve the predicaments that had fallen onto their expensively designed generals. In many cases he had failed.
@@Coppermeshman So we take all of the responsibility from actual perpetrators of the whole shebang and lay it on the Emperor because He ShOuLd HaVe PReVEnREd It. Amazing. Honestly his greatest mistake was not yeeting Lorgar into a bioreactor at the earliest opportunity
Whether he "deserves" it doesn't matter. It is impossible. The butchers nails can't be removed without killing him, and he wouldn't allow them to be even if they could. Demonic ascension also can't be undone. Not by any means I'm aware of. And let's not forget that HE ordered the nails be put into all his warriors and wiped out entire worlds with these warriors. He may have been forced to do terrible things, but the choices he did make when he had the freedom to do otherwise were just as bad. He can not be redeemed.
Listen here at least Mortarion tried to save his sons that is why he fell , Angron? Angron killed his sons first then gave them the nails . If anyone needs redemption is Mortarion , Angron can rot in the 8 hells of the skull God.
@@kagato23 Correct me if I am wrong but isnt Mortarion's and Angron's reasons for despising the emperor very much alike? I mean like, Angron was born and raised as a slave, Mortarion was born and raised just to be tortured. Both led rebellions. Angron's failed miserably and was on the very brink of being snuffed out until the emperor saved the day. Mortarion's was at its final stage, pressured by the emperor to finish the job or he'd finish it for him, stealing Mortarion's lifetime achivement. But heres a question regarding the original poster mranderson: Why does Angron deserve mercy and redemption but not Mortarion? Mortarion fought the same if not arguably worse oppresors than Angron did. He was adopted and raised by one of the tyrants but still saw what was wrong and led a rebellion against his own adoptive father. Whole reason for joining the traitors being he saw in the emperor what he saw in his adoptive father, a tyrant. Which you cant really deny considering the tyrants of Angron's homeworld was spared and allowed to continue what they were doing soley because they accepted to join the imperium. Angron in the meanwhile is simply mad and joined the traitors just because the emperor wouldnt let him die. Noble, sure. But stupid- and as Robute claims: Childish. Angron could best be described as a angry teen upset their parents wont let them go to a party. I love Angron but cmon. The only time he says anything coherent its him complaining he couldnt die with his brothers and sisters. Mortarion on the other hand- when serving the imperium. Were so disgusted by tyranny that when he found pocket empires that treated their people like cattle he would refuse their option to surrender just so he could destroy every bit of evidence of their existence. Getting him in deep shit with the emperor. Bottom line is: How can you blame Mortarion for turning traitor when he spent his entire life fighting tyrants just to be forced to serve a tyrant when the Emperor came around? (Shame nurgle got to him.)
Meh robuste was acting hypocritical. Calling culture that just refused the emperor as heretical culture even if all they want is not be turned into slaves It’s the least damage but using the word honor just doesn’t work for the emperium. Specially since they mostly conquered human worlds
@@dumbidea1007 To us they both come off as right/ understandable, but to someone observing in universe, Robo G, is a cold A hole. EVERYTHING Angron said is true , and RG, just goes "Yeah that sucks, move on bro. ". Its easy to win the marathon when youre plopped 1cm from finish line , and that is what RG got. Angron said it "I died the day the emperor took me , and left my men to die to"
@@user-yf4gx4rf8h that depends on the "someone" doing the in-universe observing. RG's final rejoinder "too spiteful to prosper" hits home in a universe that brought humanity to the brink of extinction. The Imperium is about ensuring humanity's survival. Measured against the goal of species survival Angron's personal agonies, while moving, are petty complaints. RG had it better than Angron, but that doesn't mean he had it easy. Sure he had a loving foster father, but he also had to watch that loving father die at a traitor's hands. Instead of giving into rage over that injustice RG worked to make his world a better place. I would not say Angron ever had that option, and I cannot blame him for what he became. That said the moral difference between destructive rage and constructive justice is embodied in these characters, and that is a difference we cannot ignore.
@@user-yf4gx4rf8h Roboute didn't choose the world he landed on no more than Angron did. To blame Roboute for his upbringing is childish, end of story. " The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of convenience and comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy" - Martin Luther King Jr. Roboute has always done what he thought was right no matter the cost, Angron gave in to madness and despair and couldn't move on. I wonder what Angrons brothers and sisters of Nuceria would think if they could see what he had become? No better than the masters that once called Angron slave. Now a slave to the beings that are responsible for Angrons upbringing.
@@propain8936Angron wasnt childish. Guilliman is a hypocrit. To say he is childish when he understand not a touch of pain Angron has gone through is worse then what Angron says to him. It doesnt matter if they had a choice of world. Guilliman who had everything given to him has no right to speak of courage nor honor. Nor to call Angron childish when he cant understand a spec of Angrons past.
Pretty sure that was his last day as 'himself'. When he could still form coherent thoughts and sentences. When you could catch a glimpse of who he was supposed to have been, under the pain of the Nails and the horrors of his youth.
@@RufusJuice brother I swear I’m not trying to be a weirdo or sound like a complete loser but when I’m really sad or stressed out I put this on, hear the plight in angrons voice, and it really helps me get through some shit. The conversation you did with him argel tal, and kharn should be illegal, the subtle grunts, and transgressions, i think you really capture somehow that angron was supposed to be an Angel, but was recusant for most of his existence idk sorry I think your shit is dope 💯 don’t mean to glaze you in ya TH-cam comments! Hope you get a chance somehow if the emperor wills to get a chance to voice him. Henry cavil needs to call your ass. The emperor protects!
While Guilliman certainly is right about him still being a slave, Angron kinda has a point here lol. Given all he went through, why would he stay loyal? He was screwed from the start and Big E didn't really help those matters...
I think Guilliman understood Angron's rage after this monologue of his. Yet he didn't understand what it really means have Nails in skull. He didn't understand, how Angron could bear all that hate all this time and didn’t at least try to throw away his hate and past away. Actually, I really didn’t understand, why people just didn’t try to motivate him like "how many guys like you are right now force to kill just for scum's entertaiment in pits? How many guys are forced to kill their friends and fathers? How many guys are forced to have nails in their skulls? You know how many? Thousands and milions, and they are waiting for you to free them"
Guilliman is someone who looks to the future, who tries to make things better. What disappointed him especially was not just Angron rebelling but WHY he rebelled. Angron is not rebelling to make things better for anyone. Angron is not rebelling due to 'morals' . Angron just hates the Emperor and wants to kill him and burn everything he built. If the Emperor had built a literal paradise on earth, Angron would burn it down not because he objected to Paradise but because the Emperor built it.
@@Aravaganthus tbf, he didn't accept Chaos, he was just a traitor to the Imperium. He just wanted to die ultimately. Lorgar just gave him to Khorne w/o his consent...
Angron sounded spot on to me. That was great. I often wonder if, now that Guilliman is awake and looking out at the wreck that the Imperium has become, and is hearing the nonsense legends and myths about himself and his brothers and the Emperor, if he thinks back to this encounter with Angron. Maybe looks past the hatred and listens to his words and thinks "...Angron was right. Even in his madness, with the Nails eating at him, he was right." and mourns a brother he barely knew because of the divide between them
No, you missed the point. "You're still a slave, Angron" soundly refutes everything Angron has to say. Because he is. Whatever happened, whatever horrors, whatever suffering Angron endured: He *chose* to pass that on to his sons. He *chose* to pass that on to the galaxy. He *chose* to pass that on to everyone he met. He *chose* to not do better, to make nothing better. Yes, the Nails sing. But even Kharn could choose when to kill and when to stop, before Angron sold him to the Blood God. Angron chose slavery. To his past, to his Nails, and to his new master. Guilliman was right. You are always what you choose to be.
Not quite. Angron chose to stay a blood maddened monster, he might not have chosen to become a Daemon but there were other things he did. He didn’t have to kill a bunch of his sons when he met them. He didn’t have to take out his rage on those around them. Also his mocking of the Ultramarines “courage and honor” saying is really ludicrous when he’s the one attacking Guilliman and his sons who did nothing to him.
@silenthero2795 they did it to themselves to try to meet him on middle ground. I doubt he would have wanted it, but they went and did it themselves and he just accepted it. Probably raged for a week, but there was nothing he could do.
Angron only has the nails at all because it was imposed upon him when he refused to fight his mentor back on Nuceria. Angron couldn’t have the mechanicus remove the nails because they (being made for human physiology, not for primarchs) were so integrated into his brain that removing them would kill Angron. Angron chose neither of those, and for a long time pre heresy ENDURED the pain so that he could lead his legion. Angron CHOSE to lead and to do things in spite of the nails. His legion had the apothecary research the nails so they too could understand the pain that Angron had, and to become closer to him. Kharn went to go find him and supported that, as well as bargained the fact that the legion wants the nails so they could become ‘sons’ in the eyes of their Primarch. (Angron disowned them because he believed his true sons were his brothers and sisters that the Emp left on Nuceria.) I think to say that he was enslaved wasn’t wholly inaccurate, but I still think Angron to unironically be the voice of reason here. By this point in the story he was in such a horrible state because of the nails and still had the mental fortitude and capacity to recognize the hypocrisy that the emperor was doing. Whether or not he was on Horus’ side or the loyalist’s side didn’t actually have any stake, Angron only turned because he hated the emperor, not because he loved chaos.
0:50 - 41k Guiliman actually got fair taste of Angron's fate... and...they both made good points. Though funny how Angron assumes Guiliman incapable of vicious intrigue and doesn't understand, that Guiliman had earned his place, through both work and restraint.
I highly recommend checking the following channels: A Vox In The Void, Warrior Tier, The Amber King, and Baldermort. Vox's performance as Angron in Warrior Tier's latest video about the Primarch was just as good as this, if not better.
Angron hates that he is a slave. From one master to another, from one struggle to another impossible one. Horus Heresy is a given. A god sent. The irony is, he is still a slave in the end.
@@finalboss5966 well yes, but we are talking about the soul of a primarch, it´s not like you can devour the soul of a god easily. just ask ferrus manus or sanguinius or clongrim
@@finalboss5966 ok. you know how the primarch were created? the emperor not only use his ADN and the ADN of erda, he also use warp energy to give them power, meaning that the primarchs are in some way warp creatures and not mere powerful mortals. the huge example of that is corvux corax that in his adventure to hunt down lorgar he became a mutant crow, but he revealed that this is his real form.
Angron to Guilliman: 'Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honor, courage and honor, courage and honor. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom that enslaves you, no matter that their armies overshadow yours by ten thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Sanguinius in Echoes: Someone must stand and fight, and if I have, but one choice left, I will make it now. I will stand. I will fight. I will hold this wall, knowing that the Thirteenth Legion makes for Terra with all speed, and if they cannot bring salvation, they will bring retribution. Whether I am alone or whether a hundred thousand of you are by my side when the warmaster’s horde descends. Angron to Guilliman: 'Honor is resisting a tyrant, when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honor' Sanguinius in Echoes: 'Not because I can win, but because it is right. I do not know what delusion grips those out there, who were once our brothers and sisters. But I know it is right to oppose them' The red angel's courage and honor.
Khorne wanted Sanginius but was fine with Angron as a second choice which makes sense since while Khorne is a god of war he is also a god of corage and honor
God, there is not a single day that I live without watching this monologue, and there is not a single night that I do not shed tears of sorrow watching this masterpiece. Words cannot describe my grief, and they shall not.
What’s funny is that both both angron and roboute landed on space Rome and while big G got the good part of Rome, (civilisation,culture and science) angron got the bad parts (slavery, corruption, wars, moral degradation) And they were near each other too! Imagine if superman had a twin brother who fell on the farm right next to the one superman fell on, and while superman was raised by kind people who thought him morals and values, that shaped him to become a hero his twin was raised by the worst people on earth, suffering all kinds of abuse and get treated like an animal his whole childhood, and he learned from his adopted family is nothing but hatred and violence, all he experienced was the worst of humanity, which twisted him to become a monster That is roboute and angron
"If our position were switched, would our fates be different? Will I have your life, and you mine?" Would Roboute, the man of logic, structure, order, and stability have weathered the pits of Nuceria? Would Angron, born to take the suffering and pain of others onto himself, have truly prospered under the loving guidance of a noble foster father?
I seem to remember a fan theory from awhile ago, that basically asserts this very thing was the Emperor's original plan. The Primarchs were supposed to go to all of the planets they ultimately found themselves on, but the order was switched up for a lot of them. That's how the most technically adept of them wound up on primitive feudal worlds (Perterabo, Ferris Manus, Gulliman) while the ones to be the empathic faces of the Imperium came to be in the most violent and despicable societies (Conrad Curz, Angron, Sanguinius.)
It wonder if the Emperor had taken the time to hear Angron out or allow him to take retribution against the High Raiders if he would have stayed loyal.
Not likely at least in my opinion. Angron had grown up on nuceria and had a his own understanding of what a tyrant is. He’d never be able to stay loyal to someone he saw as a tyrant. His conversation with Leman only made me belittle it more flat out saying if he was a good person he’d take his axe to the Emperors head.
If the Emperor had fought beside him, or rescued the slaves, Angron probably would have been more loyal. Those slaves he led in revolt were his family. Were those he respected and cared about. If the Emperor had rescued them, he'd have shown himself different to the tyrants of Nuceria, even if he wasn't. The World Eaters were mutilated by Angron due to the Emperor's actions that day. Turned from hounds to madmen. Angron would have always held them up to his family's standard, but with people who understood how to handle Angron around, he could have, for a time, been loyal. And all it would take, is for Horus' manic ego to show up in the open, to show himself a slave master, and Angron would have stayed loyal. At least until Horus was dead. He'd be killed not long afterwards by Big E likely. The damage from the Nail were to great.
@@nathanrosman-bakehouse359 the emperor couldn’t fix him or didn’t care to do so, and there wasn’t a way to remove the nails, the moment the nails were put in his brain he was lost , the best they could do was try to not make him angry too much maybe then he wouldn’t became a deamon maybe then he could have seen through lorgar’s lies
@mitab1 or they could have put him on ice until Cawl came up with something. Or Fabious could have cloned a replacement brain for him and done a swippyswap. This is the far future, there are ways to fix him. No one tried to explore those options. Big E seems to have been fine with him in that state. Angron didn't want to let go of the hurt because of his guilt and shame. No one else could force him to care.
There is a line of dialogue between Angron and Lehman Russ where Angron muses what kind of man he'd be without the nails, a more virtuous man. Angron's thought is that he'd have marched on the Imperial palace and taken the head of the tyrant. Mutilated as he is, he merely gains satisfaction from the bloodshed the slaving bastard asks of him. To be fair Angron just upgraded to an even worse bastard in the long run but that is still the mutilated man.
40k lore is insane,humans traveled an colonised the stars only to be cut off from one another to create their own cultures an religions over entire lifespans to be united again under the emperor. What a backdrop
Funny thing is angron still didn’t even choose that. lorgar forced him to become a demon primarch. when his mind is clear from battle and the nails,he wants one thing above all else…to die and be done with everything.
Funny enough: He joined Chaos to get his chance to either die on the Emperor's blade in defiant freedom, or to kill the Tyrant. 0 Lorgar ruined that. He forced him to become a Daemon, to be forever chained. And he resents it.
Well Angron, had you not refused the emperos help in fighting the ruler of that cursed world you landed on, you might have had a world to rule for yourself as well.
Angron talks about honour, when he has non himself. Angron talks of freedom, when he is not only enslaved by his past and sold not only his soul, but the entire legion that looked up to him to Chaos. If he had wanted to die as a warrior and be freed of his supposed servitude to the Emperor than he should just go alone and die off by fighting against some orks. Too spiteful to learn. Too resentful to forgive. Too bitter to explore his options. I may pity his fate, but I don't condone his actions.
It wasn't that he merely wished to die. Angron had resented the Emperor from their first meeting, but as time wore on, came to utterly despise the Master of Mankind as the ultimate despot, and His vision of a unified galaxy as nothing less than an eternal slavery. He wanted to strike back against all tyrants, and the Emperor came to represent the apotheosis of this in his own tortured mind. But, on the other hand, he wasn't exactly wrong to think that either. He had spent decades, maybe centuries, being his Sire's butcher, slaughtering the populations of entire worlds for the crime of non-compliance.
Although Guilliman is logically right, a man can only grow through struggles granted to him and learn to be better from them. If they dont, slaves to that struggle they will become and the world knows Only few can bear them. But emotionally and tragically the realty is that angron was never given any other option, the universe itself fated him to misery with every event that came to him. And like most men do they say fuck it, and played the cards they were dealt, a hand of a 72 offsuit, While Guilliman was given a royal flush. He speaks so easily because he didnt suffer, and now as the only primarch hes learning the difficulties a man has to go through, a leader goes through fighing a war 1000 to 1 against the tyranids, tau, eldar, and necrons; leading a force enslaved to the past, and has no one to rely on but himself, afflicted with anger of the current carcass empire and the religious cult it bacame ruled by high lords, Guilliman is just now going to learn of honour and courage the way his slave brother was forced to learn poor depressed mind afflicted guilliman
This is a really sad scene. When Guilliman realizes that his brothers have turned to the dark side and then Angron unleashes his pent up rage against him. “They let me dream” as if it’s the first time in his life that Angron has felt relief from the butchers nails. “The people of your world named you great one. The people of my world named me slave.” And I said think here is where Guilliman thinks about how fortunate he has been but then tries to help his brother by saying “You’re still a slave Angron, a slave to your past.” It’s just a really well written scene. I hope that if a 40k series comes out that this scene is included somehow
No-one understood Angron. You can tell by how they speak to him. Not Russ, Not Lorgar, Not Guilliman. There was no reason for loyalty, no cause to dream of the future and nothing to persuade him from the only thing he wanted. Russ in characteristic fashion tried to teach a man who didn’t care if he died about brotherhood, yet understood none of Angron’s. Lorgar tried to manipulate him with dreams of revenge but Angron didn’t really want revenge. Just a way to die fighting. Guilliman waxed poetic about dreams of empire and the future to a man forced into the present. A man who could not dream and would never live to see such.
Sounds like the Loyalists tried to offer him something they value. If Angron didn't value it that's his prerogative but they did offer and he did reject. I don't know a lot about HH lore but I'm sure there other Primarchs who felt they weren't understood and didn't try to destroy civilization because of it.
@@vulkanofnocturne Ha! No, neither of them was an offer. Both were a rebuke based on what they thought was their purpose. Russ did not convince Angron on Gehenna in part because Russ is utterly awful at diplomacy, but fundamentally because he couldn’t comprehend that Angron didn’t care if he died, more than that, wanted to die. Guilliman’s petulant rant about Angron stems from how he categorically cannot comprehend that Angron would see the Imperium as his enemy. Guilliman is the epitome of what Angron would categorise as a high-rider, someone who has never known the hardship of slavery, only ever knowing what it’s like to rule from above and why those below would hate him. He thought of the Imperium as a bastion of civilisation where Angron saw where it was built on conquest. The fact he was never understood is why they could never get through to him. Why nothing they could ‘offer’ or teach ever swayed him. Angron was a man with such simple yet unattainable wants. He wanted his family back, and to join them by death in combat. To die fighting as they did, as he swore to them he would die with them. A promise that went unfulfilled from beyond his power to change. To all others devoted to a sense of purpose his rationale was unthinkable. Every one of them, every Primarch but him had that aura that awed others, respected them instinctually, at the same time all but a scant two were born and bred to conquer, to lead armies and empires. Angron did not. The pretty words of a glorious future meant nothing to a dead man, less when it all had the same markings of tyranny he spent his life suffering the yoke of. As he himself said, without the Nails to distract him with pain and slaughter he would be a better man, one who would likely try to cleave the Emperor’s head off for his crimes, both against him and against all those forced into his Imperium. Angron needed no convincing to join Horus’ rebellion even if he had little to respect for him either because he owed the Emperor nothing but revenge. And he was fine with tearing down the Imperium because it was the legacy of the Emperor’s tyranny, it was a system built in his image, shackled to his wants. An empire of high-riders and their slaves, the former to be cast down, the latter to be put out of their misery. But perhaps most importantly, this was his last chance to emulate the death he wanted, fighting great odds against a slaving tyrant just as he wanted at Desh’ea, only for Lorgar to force him into eternal servitude in a misguided sense of duty, to drag humanity into ‘enlightenment’ by force and deceit if he had to. The other primarchs, barring perhaps Konrad Curze at the end, had ambitions, dreams and wants for the future. They did not suffer as Angron had to the point where all they wanted was to die. None of them had been forced to live the life of a slave at the whims of sadistic masters to the point that freedom was worth any cost. When death is a relief and freedom is worth everything there is no promise of empire that means anything. Angron didn’t set out to destroy humanity in its entirety. Just the latest in an endless line of empires that trampled him underfoot, maybe they could start again without high-riders and he could get the death he was denied.
@@WiheScarsOfKhanyou clearly don’t understand what the butchers nails did to his brain, he couldn’t move on because of the mutilation of his brain, any reasoning or thought is gone, only pain
Lorgar understood Angron the most and understood him decently well, you can see this in one of Lorgar's conversations with Magnus, but Lorgar had plans for him
Angrons right in his argument, but wrong in his answer. G man is wrong in his argument, but right in his answer. Or at least that's my take away from it. Angrons right, no one's really in a position to give him flak, what happened to him was extremely fucked up. But he's also wrong, as much of an asshole POS that the emperor is/was, he genuinely tried helping angron, even didn't kill him right away because he believed angron could redeem himself, and he was genuinely helping humanity, he was genuinely doing his best. "We are humanity dramaticized, it's strengths and weaknesses" (i don't remember the exact quote but I think that's pretty close). The emperor was just a man doing his best, he wasn't some infallible god.
Even though Angron spit bars about courage and honor, it's completely invalidated by the fact that he and Lorgar attacked the Ultramarines from behind.
Angron could have been saved and redeemed if the World Eaters had focused on safely removing the nails instead of replicating them. Kharn doomed his Primarch in his blind obedience.
If the emperor who studied all human sciences couldn’t remove the nails then the world eaters wouldn’t be able to, the best course of action was to throw angron to wars alone so he may die fighting , he shouldn’t have been allowed to lead his sons, after all you wouldn’t let a lobotomised suicidal man lead your army, right?
Sometimes Angron makes me forget that he forced his son's to endure that same mutilation ... 😢 The conversation between Kharn and Argel'Tal where he admits to feeling nothing at all at the sight of his gene-father is heartbreaking ... they took the Nails in hopes of being closer to their father 😢 Angron should be angry at the very forces he now serves. Had they not been scattered, they'd gave grown up together, loved and protected 💔😭
His brain was mangled and mutilated, his rationality was gone, he couldn’t think straight and forming a rational thought was hell to him, he lives with a butchered brain and a torture device in his skull, like saws going back and forth all day every day hacking at his brain asking him to be rational and reasonable is impossible, his sons should have known better then to Liston to the lobotomised man with nails in his skull
@@DavisJ-ln6fw Not at all Horus is worse then they are, he is also clearly portrayed and understood as a bad guy. The Loyalists delude themselves and others as to what they really are. Angron knows what they are, what they are made for.
Angron is correct that he got a much worse hand compared to Guilliman. Guilliman got the best adoptive parent among all primarchs while Angron got the nails. But that is not an excuse, other primarchs had similar start (Corax, the Lion etc) and not everyone turned traitor and not all of them decided to take their anger on their legion. Angron was a slave of the high riders, he then became a slave of his anger and finally became a slave of a chaos god. PS. Perturabo also got a nice start like Guilliman but he is still a manchild so i think it's safe to say that you can still be a dick even with a good hand.
This is one of the bust scenes in the whole 40k setting. Angron gave big blue the biggest dressing down in the whole setting and all big blue as to say is empty platitudes
RG was completely right though and I find the idea of people agreeing with Angron that a 'priveleged' person can no nothing of courage and honor disturbing.
Lorgar was a fool, I have nothing to say about him, and Angorn is a slave who has lost his future. Unfortunately, Angron was an easy prey to fall into chaos. The butcher's nails drove him into madness, he constantly remembered that his brothers were dead, and could his brothers be saved? Most people would say yes, but the Emperor was a visionary. If he could do this, be sure he would do it.
Why is it literally every video of Guilliman arguing is him going "nuh uh" and then throwing an ad hominem at his opponent. I thought he was supposed to be smart?
To be fair, I don't think I'd have a lot of room for logical discussion with my brothers if they had just tried to annihilate me and my children with heavy weapons, then later I caught up with them after they'd decimated an entire planet's population over crimes committed generations ago. Honestly, Gulliman strikes me as the most human in a lot of this: trying to be logical, but stuck on the front line as a civil war breaks out, everything he's worked for is falling apart in front of his eyes, and all he can do is start swinging before finally getting to where he can regroup. Then and there, thinking it's all fallen apart, he tries to regroup and ready his forces as best he can, then beelines it home once he realizes there's still a chance. In comparison, while I like Jaghatai and his sensible approach to the Heresy, I can't help but note he had time to think things out logically and gather all the information he needed while Gulliman was literally there at the start (barring Istvaan, of course), and after that, the time for talk was already gone.
Angron bemoans Guilliman and his sons for not understanding "courage and honor" when he is backing literal demons to attack his brother and his sons who have done literally nothing to him. Angron's defense of "my upbringing was worse than yours" doesn't justify making his brother's(and his people) life hell.
Corax did have to nuke five cities to liberate his home world. But he did free the slaves and rebuild a functioning society from what remained. Angron would not have and could not have done that.
@@infidelheretic923angron didn’t have the chance to do so, he was picked up the emperor before his uprising was finished, the emperor left the slaves to die Imagine if corax was kidnapped by the emperor before he could free his fallow slaves, imagine if corax on the emperor’s ship watching his friends getting slaughtered unable to save them
@@mitab1 The thing is, Angron's rebellion had failed, he was about to die. Whereas Corax had things well in hand. Which is why Big E simply waited for him to clean up and then visited him solo in a small transport. As for not saving Angron's friends, an easy explanation would have been that they were a Khorne cult in all but name and that he saw they were beyond saving. So rather than having to put them down personally and antagonizing Angron further, he just let them die.
@@OverLordRiper the difference is coral had the ability to go invisible and wasn’t a slave himself, mean while angron was a slave and fresh out of a lobotomy Plus in corax’s planet the jailers didn’t even know he existed for the longest time, mean while every gourd was well aware of angron’s strength and abilities and they had a lot of in place to control him and keep him in chains Corax’s invisible was the reason he managed to conquer his planet and even then let’s not forget he had access to fucking nukes while angron only had an army of starving slaves with torture devices in thier heads
Angron was also literally being labotimized the entire time by the butchers nails, making him incredibly unstable. corax never had to deal with that type of thing, so Angrons "childish" behaviors stem from the labotmization of his mind it is in no way his fault.
AngryRon was and still is a professional victim. Eff him, its so easy to hate the bastard... This shows how amazing the writing is. Not like Roboute never faced adversity... The biggest Irony is that Roboute ended up proving AngryRon wrong multiple times both during and after the Heresy.
Bro has zero empathy in him, is it really Angron's fault for ending up on Nuceria, being enslaved, having half of his brain twisted into the butchers nails? He's doomed to end up like this, he's a tragic character - because he's a shadow of what he could have been, the empathetic primarch who eases the pain of others.
@@Fireground42 He has zero empathy because Angron and Lorgar had, at that point, lead a massive campaign of horrific torture and slaughter across Roboute's worlds. So he can't exactly bring himself to care about Angron's sob story when he and his boys have been literally eating babies in Roboute's backyard.
Angron confused Bravery, Honor and foolishness...he was given a chance to become great, to rise above all that was wrong with his life but he chose to embrace it and be consumed by it, sad idiot.
I don't think he ever had a chance to get away from the scifi lobotomy that was the Bucher's Nails. Also, as both he and Mortarian pointed out, "moving on" was essentially putting the galaxy under the reign of their totalitarian tyrant of a dad who had them annihilating countless cultures without ever telling them about the (literal) unholy reason this was all necessary in the first place. Think of it this way: leaving aside the particulars of how Angron or Mortarian met the emperor, if after you spent your life fighting against tyranny only to get drafted under another guy who forced you to build an empire for him, destroying any who dare resist and doing so on a scale you'd never conceived of, then one of the leaders in this army (someone who seemed to empathize with you and you actually liked/respected them) declared his intention to rebel, what would you do? Keep in mind, you have no idea this guy has literally sold his soul to the devil (or rather, four of them) and plans to do so with yours and that of your brothers. You only know him as the hero who'd led from the front and proven his courage and leadership so many times before while also making it clear he's willing to be more diplomatic and friendly with others rather than outright conquering them and he doesn't seem nearly as secretive.
Angron never realized that he couldve been the better of all. What he went thru was terrifying. All he had to do is ask his Father to stop the pain. Childish indeed
I’m surprised angron actually talked instead of “AHHHHHHHHHHH”
angron used to spit the most truth out of all the primarchs.
angron was literally the most woke of them all, hes scream of freedom like william wallace, makes him the most woke and real primarch
@@npc1172 Not at all, Vulkun spits the truth.
@@Khorne__ I mean considering he was the only primarch to be a fucking slave his whole life it makes sense.
@@Khorne__ lol the woke don't call for freedom. The woke are as fascist as they come. Get real..
Whenever Angron doesn't just scream and starts spitting hot bars.
@anirecapped. I found the Ultramar spy
@anirecapped. He's right though. The Emperor is a tyrant: Jaghatai thought so. Angron thought so, plenty of other primarchs thought so. Compared to many contemporary human civilizations, he was a regressive tyrant. I don't care if he was some sort of psychic godlike entity, he can kiss my fucking ass when he takes away human liberty.
The Emperor is also hypocritical. He's said and done so many hypocritical things that I don't even feel the need to cite specifically one to get my point across.
He's the only option in the modern setting because he made it that way. Not because there weren't other options.
@@inwit594Yeah, that was also that option where humanity destroys itself or remains splintered and wrecked by xenos. If a united imperium struggles against something like the Tyranids, how do you suppose divided worlda would hold up ?
@@lapantony Divided? That is partially what turned up and ended with half of the imperium's elite army starting the horus heresy.
Despite the interventions that happened with chaos in the primarchs maturation, it in the end depended on emperor and his closest advisors' decision making into how to improve the predicaments that had fallen onto their expensively designed generals.
In many cases he had failed.
@@Coppermeshman So we take all of the responsibility from actual perpetrators of the whole shebang and lay it on the Emperor because He ShOuLd HaVe PReVEnREd It. Amazing. Honestly his greatest mistake was not yeeting Lorgar into a bioreactor at the earliest opportunity
Fire as always bro
In Dark Imperium, the Emperor says Mortarion can still be saved. But fuck that, he doesn’t deserve mercy or redemption. Angron does.
Mortarion only accepted Nurgle to save his sons from eternal suffering from Nurgle's rot
Whether he "deserves" it doesn't matter. It is impossible.
The butchers nails can't be removed without killing him, and he wouldn't allow them to be even if they could.
Demonic ascension also can't be undone. Not by any means I'm aware of.
And let's not forget that HE ordered the nails be put into all his warriors and wiped out entire worlds with these warriors.
He may have been forced to do terrible things, but the choices he did make when he had the freedom to do otherwise were just as bad.
He can not be redeemed.
@@wailmerpailhe’d already decided to be a traitor though.
Listen here at least Mortarion tried to save his sons that is why he fell , Angron? Angron killed his sons first then gave them the nails . If anyone needs redemption is Mortarion , Angron can rot in the 8 hells of the skull God.
@@kagato23 Correct me if I am wrong but isnt Mortarion's and Angron's reasons for despising the emperor very much alike? I mean like, Angron was born and raised as a slave, Mortarion was born and raised just to be tortured. Both led rebellions. Angron's failed miserably and was on the very brink of being snuffed out until the emperor saved the day. Mortarion's was at its final stage, pressured by the emperor to finish the job or he'd finish it for him, stealing Mortarion's lifetime achivement.
But heres a question regarding the original poster mranderson: Why does Angron deserve mercy and redemption but not Mortarion? Mortarion fought the same if not arguably worse oppresors than Angron did. He was adopted and raised by one of the tyrants but still saw what was wrong and led a rebellion against his own adoptive father. Whole reason for joining the traitors being he saw in the emperor what he saw in his adoptive father, a tyrant. Which you cant really deny considering the tyrants of Angron's homeworld was spared and allowed to continue what they were doing soley because they accepted to join the imperium.
Angron in the meanwhile is simply mad and joined the traitors just because the emperor wouldnt let him die. Noble, sure. But stupid- and as Robute claims: Childish. Angron could best be described as a angry teen upset their parents wont let them go to a party.
I love Angron but cmon. The only time he says anything coherent its him complaining he couldnt die with his brothers and sisters.
Mortarion on the other hand- when serving the imperium. Were so disgusted by tyranny that when he found pocket empires that treated their people like cattle he would refuse their option to surrender just so he could destroy every bit of evidence of their existence. Getting him in deep shit with the emperor.
Bottom line is: How can you blame Mortarion for turning traitor when he spent his entire life fighting tyrants just to be forced to serve a tyrant when the Emperor came around? (Shame nurgle got to him.)
worst part is both Angron and Roboute are right
Meh robuste was acting hypocritical.
Calling culture that just refused the emperor as heretical culture even if all they want is not be turned into slaves
It’s the least damage but using the word honor just doesn’t work for the emperium.
Specially since they mostly conquered human worlds
@@dumbidea1007 To us they both come off as right/ understandable, but to someone observing in universe, Robo G, is a cold A hole. EVERYTHING Angron said is true , and RG, just goes "Yeah that sucks, move on bro. ". Its easy to win the marathon when youre plopped 1cm from finish line , and that is what RG got. Angron said it "I died the day the emperor took me , and left my men to die to"
@@user-yf4gx4rf8h that depends on the "someone" doing the in-universe observing. RG's final rejoinder "too spiteful to prosper" hits home in a universe that brought humanity to the brink of extinction. The Imperium is about ensuring humanity's survival. Measured against the goal of species survival Angron's personal agonies, while moving, are petty complaints. RG had it better than Angron, but that doesn't mean he had it easy. Sure he had a loving foster father, but he also had to watch that loving father die at a traitor's hands. Instead of giving into rage over that injustice RG worked to make his world a better place. I would not say Angron ever had that option, and I cannot blame him for what he became. That said the moral difference between destructive rage and constructive justice is embodied in these characters, and that is a difference we cannot ignore.
@@user-yf4gx4rf8h Roboute didn't choose the world he landed on no more than Angron did. To blame Roboute for his upbringing is childish, end of story. " The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of convenience and comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy" - Martin Luther King Jr.
Roboute has always done what he thought was right no matter the cost, Angron gave in to madness and despair and couldn't move on. I wonder what Angrons brothers and sisters of Nuceria would think if they could see what he had become? No better than the masters that once called Angron slave. Now a slave to the beings that are responsible for Angrons upbringing.
@@propain8936Angron wasnt childish. Guilliman is a hypocrit. To say he is childish when he understand not a touch of pain Angron has gone through is worse then what Angron says to him. It doesnt matter if they had a choice of world. Guilliman who had everything given to him has no right to speak of courage nor honor. Nor to call Angron childish when he cant understand a spec of Angrons past.
Shit I didn’t realize you did 40K stuff, I’m very glad to have subscribed during the game awards stream.
Man... how far Angron has fallen.....
Pretty sure that was his last day as 'himself'. When he could still form coherent thoughts and sentences. When you could catch a glimpse of who he was supposed to have been, under the pain of the Nails and the horrors of his youth.
When he became a daemon prince.
THANK YOU LORGAR!
You are my head cannon Angron it’s not even close brother
That is one of the best compliments I can ever hear
@@RufusJuice brother I swear I’m not trying to be a weirdo or sound like a complete loser but when I’m really sad or stressed out I put this on, hear the plight in angrons voice, and it really helps me get through some shit. The conversation you did with him argel tal, and kharn should be illegal, the subtle grunts, and transgressions, i think you really capture somehow that angron was supposed to be an Angel, but was recusant for most of his existence idk sorry I think your shit is dope 💯 don’t mean to glaze you in ya TH-cam comments! Hope you get a chance somehow if the emperor wills to get a chance to voice him. Henry cavil needs to call your ass. The emperor protects!
@@RufusJuice and that “the blessed lady… creature, was that your whore priestess?” 🤌🏽 fucking mint so fucking angron I was like goddddd damn
@@ObamasLover-s9d amen to this
While Guilliman certainly is right about him still being a slave, Angron kinda has a point here lol. Given all he went through, why would he stay loyal? He was screwed from the start and Big E didn't really help those matters...
I think Guilliman understood Angron's rage after this monologue of his. Yet he didn't understand what it really means have Nails in skull. He didn't understand, how Angron could bear all that hate all this time and didn’t at least try to throw away his hate and past away. Actually, I really didn’t understand, why people just didn’t try to motivate him like "how many guys like you are right now force to kill just for scum's entertaiment in pits? How many guys are forced to kill their friends and fathers? How many guys are forced to have nails in their skulls? You know how many? Thousands and milions, and they are waiting for you to free them"
Guilliman is someone who looks to the future, who tries to make things better. What disappointed him especially was not just Angron rebelling but WHY he rebelled.
Angron is not rebelling to make things better for anyone. Angron is not rebelling due to 'morals' . Angron just hates the Emperor and wants to kill him and burn everything he built.
If the Emperor had built a literal paradise on earth, Angron would burn it down not because he objected to Paradise but because the Emperor built it.
The issue is that by accepting Chaos he's joining the side that directly caused his predicament and will have him be a slave for all eternity
@@Aravaganthus Clock it!
@@Aravaganthus tbf, he didn't accept Chaos, he was just a traitor to the Imperium. He just wanted to die ultimately. Lorgar just gave him to Khorne w/o his consent...
Guilliman was genuinely hurt here
Angron hitted him harder with words than with gorefather.
This speech takes Angron from silly angry man into top tier philospher primarch
Angron likes big speeches while he was still human about who is right or wrong and in the end he has fallen so low to become 10 times what he hated.
@@THMonstar highrider PROPAGANDA
@@THMonstar I don´t think he become the Emperor. Or got that low.
Both have valid arguments.
@anirecapped.only one salty here is you covered in G-man’s salty seed.
@anirecapped. you tired hard on that one. Maybe next time
@@rayscott1667 jesus you're sad
@@Pool-h5w sick burn…I guess….lol
Angron sounded spot on to me. That was great. I often wonder if, now that Guilliman is awake and looking out at the wreck that the Imperium has become, and is hearing the nonsense legends and myths about himself and his brothers and the Emperor, if he thinks back to this encounter with Angron. Maybe looks past the hatred and listens to his words and thinks "...Angron was right. Even in his madness, with the Nails eating at him, he was right." and mourns a brother he barely knew because of the divide between them
No, you missed the point.
"You're still a slave, Angron" soundly refutes everything Angron has to say. Because he is. Whatever happened, whatever horrors, whatever suffering Angron endured: He *chose* to pass that on to his sons. He *chose* to pass that on to the galaxy. He *chose* to pass that on to everyone he met. He *chose* to not do better, to make nothing better.
Yes, the Nails sing. But even Kharn could choose when to kill and when to stop, before Angron sold him to the Blood God. Angron chose slavery. To his past, to his Nails, and to his new master. Guilliman was right. You are always what you choose to be.
Not quite. Angron chose to stay a blood maddened monster, he might not have chosen to become a Daemon but there were other things he did. He didn’t have to kill a bunch of his sons when he met them. He didn’t have to take out his rage on those around them. Also his mocking of the Ultramarines “courage and honor” saying is really ludicrous when he’s the one attacking Guilliman and his sons who did nothing to him.
You'd think Angron would not wish his predicant on others but no, he also put nails in his sons' heads for whatever twisted reason he has.
@silenthero2795 they did it to themselves to try to meet him on middle ground. I doubt he would have wanted it, but they went and did it themselves and he just accepted it. Probably raged for a week, but there was nothing he could do.
Angron only has the nails at all because it was imposed upon him when he refused to fight his mentor back on Nuceria. Angron couldn’t have the mechanicus remove the nails because they (being made for human physiology, not for primarchs) were so integrated into his brain that removing them would kill Angron. Angron chose neither of those, and for a long time pre heresy ENDURED the pain so that he could lead his legion. Angron CHOSE to lead and to do things in spite of the nails. His legion had the apothecary research the nails so they too could understand the pain that Angron had, and to become closer to him. Kharn went to go find him and supported that, as well as bargained the fact that the legion wants the nails so they could become ‘sons’ in the eyes of their Primarch. (Angron disowned them because he believed his true sons were his brothers and sisters that the Emp left on Nuceria.)
I think to say that he was enslaved wasn’t wholly inaccurate, but I still think Angron to unironically be the voice of reason here. By this point in the story he was in such a horrible state because of the nails and still had the mental fortitude and capacity to recognize the hypocrisy that the emperor was doing.
Whether or not he was on Horus’ side or the loyalist’s side didn’t actually have any stake, Angron only turned because he hated the emperor, not because he loved chaos.
Roboute: 😠😒
Angron: 😡🤬👺
Meanwhile Lorgar, the “word” bearer: 🗿
Lorgar: waiting akwardly for his turn to speak while doing cheering hand gestures for angron
"Too hateful to learn
Too spiteful to prosper."
Great writing
0:50 - 41k Guiliman actually got fair taste of Angron's fate... and...they both made good points. Though funny how Angron assumes Guiliman incapable of vicious intrigue and doesn't understand, that Guiliman had earned his place, through both work and restraint.
I've never seen 40k brought to life like this. Best dramatic reader I've ever heard. Bravo.
I highly recommend checking the following channels: A Vox In The Void, Warrior Tier, The Amber King, and Baldermort. Vox's performance as Angron in Warrior Tier's latest video about the Primarch was just as good as this, if not better.
@@MrJordwalk I’ll definitely check those out! Thanks man!
Angron hates that he is a slave. From one master to another, from one struggle to another impossible one. Horus Heresy is a given. A god sent. The irony is, he is still a slave in the end.
blame lorgar, in an effort to "save" angron, he sold the soul of his brother to khorne
@@saco_wea7905 well...
u do know what happens to the soul of mortals once they die in 40k, right?
@@finalboss5966 well yes, but we are talking about the soul of a primarch, it´s not like you can devour the soul of a god easily.
just ask ferrus manus or sanguinius or clongrim
@@saco_wea7905 i am actually not that well informed on the matter. Have a spare time to enlighten?
@@finalboss5966 ok. you know how the primarch were created? the emperor not only use his ADN and the ADN of erda, he also use warp energy to give them power, meaning that the primarchs are in some way warp creatures and not mere powerful mortals.
the huge example of that is corvux corax that in his adventure to hunt down lorgar he became a mutant crow, but he revealed that this is his real form.
Angron was said to embody the Emperor's compassion.
Beneath his anger , you can feel his empathy for his fellow warrior brethren.
Angron to Guilliman: 'Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honor, courage and honor, courage and honor. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom that enslaves you, no matter that their armies overshadow yours by ten thousand to one. You know nothing of courage.
Sanguinius in Echoes: Someone must stand and fight, and if I have, but one choice left, I will make it now. I will stand. I will fight. I will hold this wall, knowing that the Thirteenth Legion makes for Terra with all speed, and if they cannot bring salvation, they will bring retribution. Whether I am alone or whether a hundred thousand of you are by my side when the warmaster’s horde descends.
Angron to Guilliman: 'Honor is resisting a tyrant, when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honor'
Sanguinius in Echoes: 'Not because I can win, but because it is right. I do not know what delusion grips those out there, who were once our brothers and sisters. But I know it is right to oppose them'
The red angel's courage and honor.
Khorne wanted Sanginius but was fine with Angron as a second choice which makes sense since while Khorne is a god of war he is also a god of corage and honor
God, there is not a single day that I live without watching this monologue, and there is not a single night that I do not shed tears of sorrow watching this masterpiece. Words cannot describe my grief, and they shall not.
What’s funny is that both both angron and roboute landed on space Rome and while big G got the good part of Rome, (civilisation,culture and science) angron got the bad parts (slavery, corruption, wars, moral degradation)
And they were near each other too! Imagine if superman had a twin brother who fell on the farm right next to the one superman fell on, and while superman was raised by kind people who thought him morals and values, that shaped him to become a hero
his twin was raised by the worst people on earth, suffering all kinds of abuse and get treated like an animal his whole childhood, and he learned from his adopted family is nothing but hatred and violence, all he experienced was the worst of humanity, which twisted him to become a monster
That is roboute and angron
Lorgar: Imma let you two cook....
"If our position were switched, would our fates be different? Will I have your life, and you mine?"
Would Roboute, the man of logic, structure, order, and stability have weathered the pits of Nuceria? Would Angron, born to take the suffering and pain of others onto himself, have truly prospered under the loving guidance of a noble foster father?
I seem to remember a fan theory from awhile ago, that basically asserts this very thing was the Emperor's original plan. The Primarchs were supposed to go to all of the planets they ultimately found themselves on, but the order was switched up for a lot of them. That's how the most technically adept of them wound up on primitive feudal worlds (Perterabo, Ferris Manus, Gulliman) while the ones to be the empathic faces of the Imperium came to be in the most violent and despicable societies (Conrad Curz, Angron, Sanguinius.)
I think this is my favorite voice over for pre daemon Angron so far. I think it fits the best
Great dialog. Fantastic reading. Genuinely makes me respect Angron in a way I never have before.
Damn Angron spitting hard fucking bars to Robotic Gorillaman.
It wonder if the Emperor had taken the time to hear Angron out or allow him to take retribution against the High Raiders if he would have stayed loyal.
Not likely at least in my opinion. Angron had grown up on nuceria and had a his own understanding of what a tyrant is. He’d never be able to stay loyal to someone he saw as a tyrant. His conversation with Leman only made me belittle it more flat out saying if he was a good person he’d take his axe to the Emperors head.
@@knightblade0188 that’s a really good point, like any figure of authority would be a tyrant in his eyes
If the Emperor had fought beside him, or rescued the slaves, Angron probably would have been more loyal. Those slaves he led in revolt were his family. Were those he respected and cared about. If the Emperor had rescued them, he'd have shown himself different to the tyrants of Nuceria, even if he wasn't.
The World Eaters were mutilated by Angron due to the Emperor's actions that day. Turned from hounds to madmen. Angron would have always held them up to his family's standard, but with people who understood how to handle Angron around, he could have, for a time, been loyal.
And all it would take, is for Horus' manic ego to show up in the open, to show himself a slave master, and Angron would have stayed loyal. At least until Horus was dead. He'd be killed not long afterwards by Big E likely. The damage from the Nail were to great.
@@spiderfox1988 Any authority no, but a tyrant like the Emperor would certainly do the trick.
Robot Guiltyspark had the perfect counter. Angeon isn't lying but he is too wrapped up in his hurt to grow past it and become something new.
To be fair it’s hard to move on when your past left you with a torture device in your skull that makes your life a living hell
@mitab1 hard to believe there was not a way to fix him. He didn't want to be fixed
@@nathanrosman-bakehouse359 the emperor couldn’t fix him or didn’t care to do so, and there wasn’t a way to remove the nails, the moment the nails were put in his brain he was lost , the best they could do was try to not make him angry too much maybe then he wouldn’t became a deamon maybe then he could have seen through lorgar’s lies
@mitab1 or they could have put him on ice until Cawl came up with something. Or Fabious could have cloned a replacement brain for him and done a swippyswap. This is the far future, there are ways to fix him. No one tried to explore those options. Big E seems to have been fine with him in that state. Angron didn't want to let go of the hurt because of his guilt and shame. No one else could force him to care.
There is a line of dialogue between Angron and Lehman Russ where Angron muses what kind of man he'd be without the nails, a more virtuous man. Angron's thought is that he'd have marched on the Imperial palace and taken the head of the tyrant. Mutilated as he is, he merely gains satisfaction from the bloodshed the slaving bastard asks of him.
To be fair Angron just upgraded to an even worse bastard in the long run but that is still the mutilated man.
40k lore is insane,humans traveled an colonised the stars only to be cut off from one another to create their own cultures an religions over entire lifespans to be united again under the emperor. What a backdrop
This goes UNFATHOMABLY hard
The Nucerians made Angron a slave, but when he joined Chaos, he chose to be a slave
The imperium makes everyone a slave. The difference is many don't mind being a slave to the big E and the others that do are either with chaos or dead
Funny thing is angron still didn’t even choose that. lorgar forced him to become a demon primarch. when his mind is clear from battle and the nails,he wants one thing above all else…to die and be done with everything.
He didn’t chose to be deamon, he never had a choice nor a chance for most of his life, the true angron died when they put the nails in his head
Funny enough: He joined Chaos to get his chance to either die on the Emperor's blade in defiant freedom, or to kill the Tyrant. 0
Lorgar ruined that.
He forced him to become a Daemon, to be forever chained.
And he resents it.
"Not looking toward the future"
Prior to the daemonhood it was well accepted that Angron had no future, hard not to simp for him.
Well Angron, had you not refused the emperos help in fighting the ruler of that cursed world you landed on, you might have had a world to rule for yourself as well.
These readings are master pieces!
Angron is literally the epitome of every Twitter User.
Why is he literally that?
Angron talks about honour, when he has non himself. Angron talks of freedom, when he is not only enslaved by his past and sold not only his soul, but the entire legion that looked up to him to Chaos. If he had wanted to die as a warrior and be freed of his supposed servitude to the Emperor than he should just go alone and die off by fighting against some orks. Too spiteful to learn. Too resentful to forgive. Too bitter to explore his options. I may pity his fate, but I don't condone his actions.
It wasn't that he merely wished to die. Angron had resented the Emperor from their first meeting, but as time wore on, came to utterly despise the Master of Mankind as the ultimate despot, and His vision of a unified galaxy as nothing less than an eternal slavery. He wanted to strike back against all tyrants, and the Emperor came to represent the apotheosis of this in his own tortured mind. But, on the other hand, he wasn't exactly wrong to think that either. He had spent decades, maybe centuries, being his Sire's butcher, slaughtering the populations of entire worlds for the crime of non-compliance.
Although Guilliman is logically right, a man can only grow through struggles granted to him and learn to be better from them. If they dont, slaves to that struggle they will become and the world knows Only few can bear them.
But emotionally and tragically the realty is that angron was never given any other option, the universe itself fated him to misery with every event that came to him. And like most men do they say fuck it, and played the cards they were dealt, a hand of a 72 offsuit, While Guilliman was given a royal flush.
He speaks so easily because he didnt suffer, and now as the only primarch hes learning the difficulties a man has to go through, a leader goes through fighing a war 1000 to 1 against the tyranids, tau, eldar, and necrons; leading a force enslaved to the past, and has no one to rely on but himself, afflicted with anger of the current carcass empire and the religious cult it bacame ruled by high lords, Guilliman is just now going to learn of honour and courage the way his slave brother was forced to learn poor depressed mind afflicted guilliman
Angron deserves his revenge
And we... 😋Deserve to die
This is a really sad scene. When Guilliman realizes that his brothers have turned to the dark side and then Angron unleashes his pent up rage against him. “They let me dream” as if it’s the first time in his life that Angron has felt relief from the butchers nails. “The people of your world named you great one. The people of my world named me slave.” And I said think here is where Guilliman thinks about how fortunate he has been but then tries to help his brother by saying “You’re still a slave Angron, a slave to your past.”
It’s just a really well written scene. I hope that if a 40k series comes out that this scene is included somehow
No-one understood Angron.
You can tell by how they speak to him. Not Russ, Not Lorgar, Not Guilliman.
There was no reason for loyalty, no cause to dream of the future and nothing to persuade him from the only thing he wanted.
Russ in characteristic fashion tried to teach a man who didn’t care if he died about brotherhood, yet understood none of Angron’s.
Lorgar tried to manipulate him with dreams of revenge but Angron didn’t really want revenge. Just a way to die fighting.
Guilliman waxed poetic about dreams of empire and the future to a man forced into the present. A man who could not dream and would never live to see such.
Sounds like the Loyalists tried to offer him something they value. If Angron didn't value it that's his prerogative but they did offer and he did reject. I don't know a lot about HH lore but I'm sure there other Primarchs who felt they weren't understood and didn't try to destroy civilization because of it.
@@vulkanofnocturne
Ha! No, neither of them was an offer. Both were a rebuke based on what they thought was their purpose.
Russ did not convince Angron on Gehenna in part because Russ is utterly awful at diplomacy, but fundamentally because he couldn’t comprehend that Angron didn’t care if he died, more than that, wanted to die.
Guilliman’s petulant rant about Angron stems from how he categorically cannot comprehend that Angron would see the Imperium as his enemy. Guilliman is the epitome of what Angron would categorise as a high-rider, someone who has never known the hardship of slavery, only ever knowing what it’s like to rule from above and why those below would hate him.
He thought of the Imperium as a bastion of civilisation where Angron saw where it was built on conquest.
The fact he was never understood is why they could never get through to him. Why nothing they could ‘offer’ or teach ever swayed him.
Angron was a man with such simple yet unattainable wants. He wanted his family back, and to join them by death in combat. To die fighting as they did, as he swore to them he would die with them. A promise that went unfulfilled from beyond his power to change.
To all others devoted to a sense of purpose his rationale was unthinkable. Every one of them, every Primarch but him had that aura that awed others, respected them instinctually, at the same time all but a scant two were born and bred to conquer, to lead armies and empires.
Angron did not. The pretty words of a glorious future meant nothing to a dead man, less when it all had the same markings of tyranny he spent his life suffering the yoke of.
As he himself said, without the Nails to distract him with pain and slaughter he would be a better man, one who would likely try to cleave the Emperor’s head off for his crimes, both against him and against all those forced into his Imperium.
Angron needed no convincing to join Horus’ rebellion even if he had little to respect for him either because he owed the Emperor nothing but revenge. And he was fine with tearing down the Imperium because it was the legacy of the Emperor’s tyranny, it was a system built in his image, shackled to his wants.
An empire of high-riders and their slaves, the former to be cast down, the latter to be put out of their misery.
But perhaps most importantly, this was his last chance to emulate the death he wanted, fighting great odds against a slaving tyrant just as he wanted at Desh’ea, only for Lorgar to force him into eternal servitude in a misguided sense of duty, to drag humanity into ‘enlightenment’ by force and deceit if he had to.
The other primarchs, barring perhaps Konrad Curze at the end, had ambitions, dreams and wants for the future. They did not suffer as Angron had to the point where all they wanted was to die. None of them had been forced to live the life of a slave at the whims of sadistic masters to the point that freedom was worth any cost.
When death is a relief and freedom is worth everything there is no promise of empire that means anything.
Angron didn’t set out to destroy humanity in its entirety. Just the latest in an endless line of empires that trampled him underfoot, maybe they could start again without high-riders and he could get the death he was denied.
Angron was a pathetic chaos slave who couldn't move on. There is no way to understand it because it has no meaning
@@WiheScarsOfKhanyou clearly don’t understand what the butchers nails did to his brain, he couldn’t move on because of the mutilation of his brain, any reasoning or thought is gone, only pain
Lorgar understood Angron the most and understood him decently well, you can see this in one of Lorgar's conversations with Magnus, but Lorgar had plans for him
I agree with Angron, 100% here.
this is extraordinary!
I hope the HH get's made into a film or tv series and whoever makes it does it justice!
What’s profound is that they were All right in their insights.
Angrons right in his argument, but wrong in his answer.
G man is wrong in his argument, but right in his answer.
Or at least that's my take away from it. Angrons right, no one's really in a position to give him flak, what happened to him was extremely fucked up. But he's also wrong, as much of an asshole POS that the emperor is/was, he genuinely tried helping angron, even didn't kill him right away because he believed angron could redeem himself, and he was genuinely helping humanity, he was genuinely doing his best. "We are humanity dramaticized, it's strengths and weaknesses" (i don't remember the exact quote but I think that's pretty close). The emperor was just a man doing his best, he wasn't some infallible god.
Even though Angron spit bars about courage and honor, it's completely invalidated by the fact that he and Lorgar attacked the Ultramarines from behind.
Beware the wrath of a kind man.
I feel bad for everyone here they made valid points. 😭
Angron could have been saved and redeemed if the World Eaters had focused on safely removing the nails instead of replicating them. Kharn doomed his Primarch in his blind obedience.
If the emperor who studied all human sciences couldn’t remove the nails then the world eaters wouldn’t be able to, the best course of action was to throw angron to wars alone so he may die fighting , he shouldn’t have been allowed to lead his sons, after all you wouldn’t let a lobotomised suicidal man lead your army, right?
how would you describe the voice of lorgar? it sounds really good
Sometimes Angron makes me forget that he forced his son's to endure that same mutilation ... 😢
The conversation between Kharn and Argel'Tal where he admits to feeling nothing at all at the sight of his gene-father is heartbreaking ... they took the Nails in hopes of being closer to their father 😢
Angron should be angry at the very forces he now serves. Had they not been scattered, they'd gave grown up together, loved and protected 💔😭
His brain was mangled and mutilated, his rationality was gone, he couldn’t think straight and forming a rational thought was hell to him, he lives with a butchered brain and a torture device in his skull, like saws going back and forth all day every day hacking at his brain
asking him to be rational and reasonable is impossible, his sons should have known better then to Liston to the lobotomised man with nails in his skull
"Guys you are getting in the way of our genocidal campaign of conquest, you big meanies". I am unmoved by the plight of the loyalists.
Lol if you think Horus was against either genocide or conquest I'm sorry .....
@@DavisJ-ln6fw Not at all Horus is worse then they are, he is also clearly portrayed and understood as a bad guy. The Loyalists delude themselves and others as to what they really are.
Angron knows what they are, what they are made for.
Angron is correct that he got a much worse hand compared to Guilliman.
Guilliman got the best adoptive parent among all primarchs while Angron got the nails.
But that is not an excuse, other primarchs had similar start (Corax, the Lion etc) and not everyone turned traitor and not all of them decided to take their anger on their legion.
Angron was a slave of the high riders, he then became a slave of his anger and finally became a slave of a chaos god.
PS. Perturabo also got a nice start like Guilliman but he is still a manchild so i think it's safe to say that you can still be a dick even with a good hand.
You did read Perturabo's Primarch book right? It wasn't a good start, he was an asset not a person
Angron was always a traitor, he never even thought to be loyal to the Emperor.
This is one of the bust scenes in the whole 40k setting.
Angron gave big blue the biggest dressing down in the whole setting and all big blue as to say is empty platitudes
RG was completely right though and I find the idea of people agreeing with Angron that a 'priveleged' person can no nothing of courage and honor disturbing.
@@sarethuskami5082why? Because it's true?
Lorgar was a fool, I have nothing to say about him, and Angorn is a slave who has lost his future. Unfortunately, Angron was an easy prey to fall into chaos. The butcher's nails drove him into madness, he constantly remembered that his brothers were dead, and could his brothers be saved? Most people would say yes, but the Emperor was a visionary. If he could do this, be sure he would do it.
Lorgar be like 😶
Angron is totally on point here. Robute lacks perspective...
Name of music?
It is in the description.
Inferia
Eternal Eclipse
Wings Of Apocalypse
@@cgibbs011Thank you. I didn’t look down far enough in the description.
Why is it literally every video of Guilliman arguing is him going "nuh uh" and then throwing an ad hominem at his opponent. I thought he was supposed to be smart?
To be fair, I don't think I'd have a lot of room for logical discussion with my brothers if they had just tried to annihilate me and my children with heavy weapons, then later I caught up with them after they'd decimated an entire planet's population over crimes committed generations ago.
Honestly, Gulliman strikes me as the most human in a lot of this: trying to be logical, but stuck on the front line as a civil war breaks out, everything he's worked for is falling apart in front of his eyes, and all he can do is start swinging before finally getting to where he can regroup. Then and there, thinking it's all fallen apart, he tries to regroup and ready his forces as best he can, then beelines it home once he realizes there's still a chance.
In comparison, while I like Jaghatai and his sensible approach to the Heresy, I can't help but note he had time to think things out logically and gather all the information he needed while Gulliman was literally there at the start (barring Istvaan, of course), and after that, the time for talk was already gone.
Angron bemoans Guilliman and his sons for not understanding "courage and honor" when he is backing literal demons to attack his brother and his sons who have done literally nothing to him. Angron's defense of "my upbringing was worse than yours" doesn't justify making his brother's(and his people) life hell.
Considering the world eaters have no issue slaughtering defenceless people Angron giving a lecture on courage and honor is hilarious
Angron can cry about his slaved life but he is forgotting about Corax as he lived as a Slave too and manage to free his world
Corax did have to nuke five cities to liberate his home world.
But he did free the slaves and rebuild a functioning society from what remained.
Angron would not have and could not have done that.
@@infidelheretic923angron didn’t have the chance to do so, he was picked up the emperor before his uprising was finished, the emperor left the slaves to die
Imagine if corax was kidnapped by the emperor before he could free his fallow slaves, imagine if corax on the emperor’s ship watching his friends getting slaughtered unable to save them
@@mitab1 The thing is, Angron's rebellion had failed, he was about to die. Whereas Corax had things well in hand. Which is why Big E simply waited for him to clean up and then visited him solo in a small transport. As for not saving Angron's friends, an easy explanation would have been that they were a Khorne cult in all but name and that he saw they were beyond saving. So rather than having to put them down personally and antagonizing Angron further, he just let them die.
@@OverLordRiper the difference is coral had the ability to go invisible and wasn’t a slave himself, mean while angron was a slave and fresh out of a lobotomy
Plus in corax’s planet the jailers didn’t even know he existed for the longest time, mean while every gourd was well aware of angron’s strength and abilities and they had a lot of in place to control him and keep him in chains
Corax’s invisible was the reason he managed to conquer his planet and even then let’s not forget he had access to fucking nukes while angron only had an army of starving slaves with torture devices in thier heads
Angron was also literally being labotimized the entire time by the butchers nails, making him incredibly unstable. corax never had to deal with that type of thing, so Angrons "childish" behaviors stem from the labotmization of his mind it is in no way his fault.
Angron is right!!!
primarchwhocouldntconquerhisadoptedworldsayswhat
AngryRon was and still is a professional victim. Eff him, its so easy to hate the bastard... This shows how amazing the writing is. Not like Roboute never faced adversity... The biggest Irony is that Roboute ended up proving AngryRon wrong multiple times both during and after the Heresy.
Bro has zero empathy in him, is it really Angron's fault for ending up on Nuceria, being enslaved, having half of his brain twisted into the butchers nails? He's doomed to end up like this, he's a tragic character - because he's a shadow of what he could have been, the empathetic primarch who eases the pain of others.
@@Fireground42 He has zero empathy because Angron and Lorgar had, at that point, lead a massive campaign of horrific torture and slaughter across Roboute's worlds. So he can't exactly bring himself to care about Angron's sob story when he and his boys have been literally eating babies in Roboute's backyard.
Angron confused Bravery, Honor and foolishness...he was given a chance to become great, to rise above all that was wrong with his life but he chose to embrace it and be consumed by it, sad idiot.
I don't think he ever had a chance to get away from the scifi lobotomy that was the Bucher's Nails. Also, as both he and Mortarian pointed out, "moving on" was essentially putting the galaxy under the reign of their totalitarian tyrant of a dad who had them annihilating countless cultures without ever telling them about the (literal) unholy reason this was all necessary in the first place.
Think of it this way: leaving aside the particulars of how Angron or Mortarian met the emperor, if after you spent your life fighting against tyranny only to get drafted under another guy who forced you to build an empire for him, destroying any who dare resist and doing so on a scale you'd never conceived of, then one of the leaders in this army (someone who seemed to empathize with you and you actually liked/respected them) declared his intention to rebel, what would you do?
Keep in mind, you have no idea this guy has literally sold his soul to the devil (or rather, four of them) and plans to do so with yours and that of your brothers. You only know him as the hero who'd led from the front and proven his courage and leadership so many times before while also making it clear he's willing to be more diplomatic and friendly with others rather than outright conquering them and he doesn't seem nearly as secretive.
The books got way too Marvelized with primarchs throwing walls of preachy text at each other
Angron never realized that he couldve been the better of all. What he went thru was terrifying. All he had to do is ask his Father to stop the pain. Childish indeed
I think they made it clear they could never get the nails out of Angron's head. The damage was permanent, so he was just being used till he dropped.
Angron did nothing wrong :'(
Angron did nothing wrong
He's done plenty wrong
Yes, he has done much wrong, but it's not really his fault.
Robotkek Gillybob: You really are the WarHammer of 40k