The takeback rule is the most arguable for me. In terms of takeback etiquette, Chess is rather the exception than the rule. Most competitive tabletop games use the rule of predictability. The point you can takeback to is up to something you could not predict happened, whether it is something random or something that was unknown to you, like the other player decision or secret ressources. Also, I'd argue that if you're in a friendly tournament, where the competition is light and the stakes low, it's fine to give advice to other players and think together at what's best for your opponent to do. Those kind of tournament are still training environment, and winning because you saw your opponent do a bad move and did not point it out has a really bad taste.
If my opponent is working out some crazy long shot move I'll always offer advice if there's a route with a chance of fewer or easier rolls because I want to see crazy things suceed and despite being a league and tournament player I want a fun game and that's for both of us
I am the same. Case and point, final game of our league (no playoff) based on points, pouring rain, Wood Elves vs. Humans. He did not roll below 4+ meanwhile I keep getting 2+ to pickup with Sure Hands. Goes for a risky touchdown trying to do three 3+ dodges, and one 2+ pass, I showed him since he had a reroll there was a way for just one 4+ dodge, into a handoff. That touchdown won him the game and the league, but looked dang cool. Humans Out-Elfing Elves.
This is the way to play! When starting only my second team, learning passing the first time, I said I was setting everything up for a pass. I moved my Thrower - without throwing - and then moved everyone else. Then I went to pass and said, “Oh shoot, I can’t pass now…you probably saw that coming.” My opponent just sat there and watched it all happen and then happily took his turn. It f*cking sucked.
My models face the direction of the end zone I'm headed towards and when I activate them I turn them backwards facing the opposite end zone and then the following turn they get turned back the other way and so forth. I like to make sure for cocked dice or a dice that rolls off the table, do we re-roll both dice involved if more than one or just re-roll the one that was cocked/off the table?
I find the most trouble in sharing the pain. Not that I will run around the table screaming "Loser" when I win, but I have found that saying stuff like (using the example in the video here) "Man, that is brutal luck" makes it feel a bit toxic as I am stating the obvious and therefore "rubbing it in." This feels this way especially when I say something kind and then proceed to absolutely stomp my opponent's team on my turn, which makes me feel bad even though it's the best thing to do anyway. But, then, I don't know what decent thing to actually say.
Here's one I would add - don't call for your opponent's dice to fail. No more "Anything but a 1 wins the game" or if they roll a skull and then use a re-roll, don't say "same again please". That is without doubt, my single biggest ettiquette gripe regarding BB. I can forgive everything else on this top 5 list, but I can't stand my opponents who openly express how they want to see my dice fail. We all would like to win our games of Blood Bowl, there isn't a coach alive who likes to lose game after game, but look to win by being better than them, not because the had worse luck than you.
I love the "The enemy of your enemy is your friend" analogy at the end. Not that Blood Bowl is a bad game, but the analogy inspires me to remember that a lot of people have said about any game that the only way to "Beat the game" is to have a good time.
thank you channel is great enjoyed your videos are very informative as being a total noob and playing my first game at the club this week with my Monty python style nobility team
I would like to put forward: “It’s just a game”. I can get over competitive at times, particularly when I’m losing. Remembering that it is just a game and winning is not the be all and end all. The goal of any game of Blood bowl is to finish the game with a person who you want to play against again, and who wants to play against you again too. That is the real prize.
My usual group has a default rule for cocked dice that I like to call the Tower Rule: if it's on the table and you can set another die of the same size on top of it and neither one moves, it plays. If not, reroll. But after watching this I'm realizing I don't bring that up with new people as often as I should, at least not until it comes up. Good looking out, and thanks for another great video.
If it only was a problem restricted to blood bowl players. The most bizarre part of the pandemic has been that so many adults actually need education about how to wash their hands :S
As far as skill rings: In a tournament I make sure I always mark anyone who is different from others of the same position (if I've given all blitzers dodge, for example, I won't bother). In a league, pretty much every player is different, so will often only mark those with skills likely to be key to decision-making, like Guard or Tackle. Sometimes it's even easier to mark the rookie/journeyman player in a league.
Game state is exactly why I preferred "illegal procedure" it wasn't a gotcha, it was a way to make sure the game state was kept correct. It is written in the back of the 3rd edition rulebook, in the designer's notes. The result of the rule is usually "Once bitten twice shy" and coaches who know the sword of damocles is hanging above them don't get caught out very often. Let's not forget that illegal procedure used to cause a turnover, it has never meant immediately losing the whole game. Nothing bad happens when a coach loses a match of Bloodbowl, not in a friendly pick up game, not in a league, not in a tournament. You're still alive and able to play another game. Of course, there can be leniency, it doesn't have to be enforced to the letter, as long as the game state is up-kept. The problem, as your recent tournament demonstrated is that if there is no risk then coaches can and will forget. It's just being human. Is the tournament invalidated because the game state was wrong? No, of course not, it was just a mistake...But if there had been an illegal procedure then one coach would have lost a reroll (or suffered a turnover or whatever) which is a minor mistake for one coach instead of for a whole tournament. Curze was right (to a certain point, i mean we don't need to flay coaches that forget the turn marker, the threat of an illegal procedure should suffice) I'd lean more to the losing / gaining a reroll option, rather than flaying, because more rerolls are useful in this edition. Turn timers. There are two distinct games of Bloodbowl; those with timed turns and those without timed turns. Bloodbowl is a sports game, noted for being fast, furious, frantic even. Timed turns represent this with on the fly decisions, holes in defenses that could have been covered, but aren't !! Players that make mad dashes and fail badly calculated dodges ! This is what makes Bloodbowl exciting fun for both players, because BOTH coaches are invested in the game state, the active player but also the inactive player watching for mistakes to act upon. Without timers it's more like chess, where coaches can and will go into analysis paralysis. This is fine in training sessions, if both players are trying things out in practice. Or helping a new coach learn the ropes. But it's impolite to keep an opposing coach waiting while you calculate every single possibility.... I use timers as a teaching aid; No timers for beginners for demos, even friendly games to get to grips with the game, but once a coach scores a touchdown - and I mean their first real touchdown that they did on their own terms; then it's timer time. Unless, as mentioned above we're doing training sessions, and even then the whole point is to get the plays learned and automatic so it can be done on the timer. Timers and illegal procedure apply to both coaches, if you can't move all your players in time, that's terrible, but then it happens to your opponent, it balances out. :D Let's not remove the fun from Bloodbowl.
A turnover before you get any actions is a HUGE penalty in this game. Losing a reroll is usually a pretty big penalty as well. Combined with the fact that the players who are more likely to forget to move their turn markers are also usually the less experienced players, that can take them from having (for example) 25% chance of winning down to 2.5%. I started playing during the time that illegal procedure was still official. I have never played with it included, because every tournament and league I played before it was officially removed specified that it was only to be used if both opponents agreed before the match. I have also had very few instances of the turn counter not being moved in a way which was not easily rectified (e.g., our counters don't match, whoever is behind one has obviously missed moving theirs once).
Fantastic topic!! I've been doing minitures for 12 years over many systems and the one thing I've learned is "it's who you play with not what you play." Had a great time playing games I utterly lost or had no idea how to play the game. I've also had horrible times playing systems I love just cause my opponent was a pain.
For me, a game gets frustrating if a player constantly forgets to turn their players around after moving them (we normally turn them as a convention), or turns stunned players face-up at the start of the turn. I don't blame them for it, as things are easy to forget, but it can become a headache if it's constant - as it can hand players additional activations by accident. I also think it's a bit cr*pt when players don't seem to respect the difference between high and low tier teams, so take all Tier 1 teams or, worse, then also treat their win vs Halflings as if they definitely outplayed their opponent. I'm not a fan of situations where a player's 'skill rings' are comprehensible only to them. I don't mind 'takebacks' to some degree, but I do if the player's been shuffling their players around like a pea under a cup before reversing it. Or where people argue for house-rules that happen to favour their own teams. Against me, I'm a slow player unless I'm on the clock - so I feel my opponent's pain! Worse, I won the last league I was in but it was very close and included me accidentally playing with 12 players in the final games turn (albeit only for 2 turns, and I paid the full penalty of losing a Tomb Guardian who also had the ball).
I believe in providing always my best game, so I try to be clear (by explaining my teams, using skill rings, nicely painted miniatures and markers for everything), be helpful (help moving, remembering skills and sometimes advice), do not give up (even if diced or with a full casualty box), be a good winner or loser (do not claim someone is just lucky or you have bad dice). What I really hate is unpainted miniatures, even more proxy miniatures (non blood bowl miniatures or Ogre being a Troll) and people just complaining (especially about lucky dice because it is typically just good placement because if you need to roll dice you made something wrong or your opponent did something right and if it is more difficult it was better or worse).
Turn markers and turning players. The way I do it to remember to move my turn marker. When my opponent says his turn is over, and starts turning around his players, I take this time to turn my marker. His hands will be all around the bord turning his players anyway, so instead of sitting there watching, I use that as a reminder to move my turn marker. I also "refuse" to touch other people's models. My friends often say "you can just move him", and I reply "thanks, but I want him moved over there *point at square". I don't mind if the other player touch my player, but I am fairly quick touching the model to indicate that I am about to move it ^^ Cocked dice: Can you balance another dice on top and it doesn't fall off, it's good. If the dice falls off, reroll is in order. You can get as much time and attempts you want to balance it (it probably won't help anyway :D )
Great list and a really interesting points. Not playing in person with strangers so the touching others models was one i will take away regarding the skill rings, what are the ones you guys used on the bonehead championship?
They use Williy miniatures ones which are 10 (5 colors) for 4,95 €. Only problems I have with them: You can not chose the color, so I have each color 4 times, but having some more colors would be good. And they only offer 32 mm, but I still have some 25 mm miniatures and many 40mm Big guys.
The takeback rule is the most arguable for me.
In terms of takeback etiquette, Chess is rather the exception than the rule.
Most competitive tabletop games use the rule of predictability.
The point you can takeback to is up to something you could not predict happened, whether it is something random or something that was unknown to you, like the other player decision or secret ressources.
Also, I'd argue that if you're in a friendly tournament, where the competition is light and the stakes low, it's fine to give advice to other players and think together at what's best for your opponent to do. Those kind of tournament are still training environment, and winning because you saw your opponent do a bad move and did not point it out has a really bad taste.
If my opponent is working out some crazy long shot move I'll always offer advice if there's a route with a chance of fewer or easier rolls because I want to see crazy things suceed and despite being a league and tournament player I want a fun game and that's for both of us
I am the same. Case and point, final game of our league (no playoff) based on points, pouring rain, Wood Elves vs. Humans. He did not roll below 4+ meanwhile I keep getting 2+ to pickup with Sure Hands. Goes for a risky touchdown trying to do three 3+ dodges, and one 2+ pass, I showed him since he had a reroll there was a way for just one 4+ dodge, into a handoff. That touchdown won him the game and the league, but looked dang cool. Humans Out-Elfing Elves.
This is the way to play! When starting only my second team, learning passing the first time, I said I was setting everything up for a pass. I moved my Thrower - without throwing - and then moved everyone else. Then I went to pass and said, “Oh shoot, I can’t pass now…you probably saw that coming.” My opponent just sat there and watched it all happen and then happily took his turn.
It f*cking sucked.
Fantastic and well needed topic.
Thanks Ben 👍🏻
My models face the direction of the end zone I'm headed towards and when I activate them I turn them backwards facing the opposite end zone and then the following turn they get turned back the other way and so forth.
I like to make sure for cocked dice or a dice that rolls off the table, do we re-roll both dice involved if more than one or just re-roll the one that was cocked/off the table?
So i dont need to do any of these right because this is an April fools video?
Sure, you be THAT guy...
If you must graze on hot Cheetos during a game, consider using chopsticks.
Sadly I get bullied by my wife for eating Wotsits with a fork 🙄
I find the most trouble in sharing the pain. Not that I will run around the table screaming "Loser" when I win, but I have found that saying stuff like (using the example in the video here) "Man, that is brutal luck" makes it feel a bit toxic as I am stating the obvious and therefore "rubbing it in." This feels this way especially when I say something kind and then proceed to absolutely stomp my opponent's team on my turn, which makes me feel bad even though it's the best thing to do anyway. But, then, I don't know what decent thing to actually say.
I really like the addition of supporting the game store/ venue. Ever since i got a little insight into margins it simply made sense. Great add
Yeah! I thought it was a great suggestion too! Gotta help the places that help the community!! 🤩
Here's one I would add - don't call for your opponent's dice to fail. No more "Anything but a 1 wins the game" or if they roll a skull and then use a re-roll, don't say "same again please". That is without doubt, my single biggest ettiquette gripe regarding BB. I can forgive everything else on this top 5 list, but I can't stand my opponents who openly express how they want to see my dice fail.
We all would like to win our games of Blood Bowl, there isn't a coach alive who likes to lose game after game, but look to win by being better than them, not because the had worse luck than you.
best tip i have as a BB Veteran if the Oponent takes to long is, Stop talking if its not you Turn.
Hello from Ukraine!) Thx for content, very interesting.)
Hang in there, mate...
I love the "The enemy of your enemy is your friend" analogy at the end. Not that Blood Bowl is a bad game, but the analogy inspires me to remember that a lot of people have said about any game that the only way to "Beat the game" is to have a good time.
Great video, Blood Bowl should always be fun and you know Nuffle is going to screw you over at some point
thank you channel is great enjoyed your videos are very informative as being a total noob and playing my first game at the club this week with my Monty python style nobility team
I would like to put forward: “It’s just a game”. I can get over competitive at times, particularly when I’m losing. Remembering that it is just a game and winning is not the be all and end all. The goal of any game of Blood bowl is to finish the game with a person who you want to play against again, and who wants to play against you again too. That is the real prize.
My usual group has a default rule for cocked dice that I like to call the Tower Rule: if it's on the table and you can set another die of the same size on top of it and neither one moves, it plays. If not, reroll. But after watching this I'm realizing I don't bring that up with new people as often as I should, at least not until it comes up. Good looking out, and thanks for another great video.
one of the guys on the other team in my league uses colored stripes on the side of the base for skills it's really nice
Niiice 🤩
Brilliant! I only wish more players would see this. 👍 the time points are so important. Nothing worse than a marathon game.
Thank you for making the video, Ben. You summarized the issue quite well. Congratulations!!
Am I the only one who equally hates winning by lots as I do, losing by lots? Still, quote of the season
"I don't rely on luck"
Yes, steamrolling an opponent is no fun at all
Great video, I can't believe that basic hygiene has been an issue for at least 20yrs in this hobby
If it only was a problem restricted to blood bowl players. The most bizarre part of the pandemic has been that so many adults actually need education about how to wash their hands :S
As far as skill rings: In a tournament I make sure I always mark anyone who is different from others of the same position (if I've given all blitzers dodge, for example, I won't bother). In a league, pretty much every player is different, so will often only mark those with skills likely to be key to decision-making, like Guard or Tackle. Sometimes it's even easier to mark the rookie/journeyman player in a league.
What if you speak diffrent languages
That's an excellent question Vern! And something we'll be looking into as the World Cup get's closer!
last world cup had a translation booklet as part of the tournament pack, with main skills and actions.
I never thought about this. Makes me happy to think of Blood Bowl crossing language barriers.
Awesome video! Thanks!
Absolutely love this 👌
Game state is exactly why I preferred "illegal procedure" it wasn't a gotcha, it was a way to make sure the game state was kept correct. It is written in the back of the 3rd edition rulebook, in the designer's notes.
The result of the rule is usually "Once bitten twice shy" and coaches who know the sword of damocles is hanging above them don't get caught out very often.
Let's not forget that illegal procedure used to cause a turnover, it has never meant immediately losing the whole game. Nothing bad happens when a coach loses a match of Bloodbowl, not in a friendly pick up game, not in a league, not in a tournament. You're still alive and able to play another game.
Of course, there can be leniency, it doesn't have to be enforced to the letter, as long as the game state is up-kept. The problem, as your recent tournament demonstrated is that if there is no risk then coaches can and will forget. It's just being human.
Is the tournament invalidated because the game state was wrong? No, of course not, it was just a mistake...But if there had been an illegal procedure then one coach would have lost a reroll (or suffered a turnover or whatever) which is a minor mistake for one coach instead of for a whole tournament.
Curze was right (to a certain point, i mean we don't need to flay coaches that forget the turn marker, the threat of an illegal procedure should suffice) I'd lean more to the losing / gaining a reroll option, rather than flaying, because more rerolls are useful in this edition.
Turn timers. There are two distinct games of Bloodbowl; those with timed turns and those without timed turns.
Bloodbowl is a sports game, noted for being fast, furious, frantic even. Timed turns represent this with on the fly decisions, holes in defenses that could have been covered, but aren't !! Players that make mad dashes and fail badly calculated dodges ! This is what makes Bloodbowl exciting fun for both players, because BOTH coaches are invested in the game state, the active player but also the inactive player watching for mistakes to act upon.
Without timers it's more like chess, where coaches can and will go into analysis paralysis. This is fine in training sessions, if both players are trying things out in practice. Or helping a new coach learn the ropes. But it's impolite to keep an opposing coach waiting while you calculate every single possibility....
I use timers as a teaching aid; No timers for beginners for demos, even friendly games to get to grips with the game, but once a coach scores a touchdown - and I mean their first real touchdown that they did on their own terms; then it's timer time. Unless, as mentioned above we're doing training sessions, and even then the whole point is to get the plays learned and automatic so it can be done on the timer.
Timers and illegal procedure apply to both coaches, if you can't move all your players in time, that's terrible, but then it happens to your opponent, it balances out. :D Let's not remove the fun from Bloodbowl.
A turnover before you get any actions is a HUGE penalty in this game. Losing a reroll is usually a pretty big penalty as well. Combined with the fact that the players who are more likely to forget to move their turn markers are also usually the less experienced players, that can take them from having (for example) 25% chance of winning down to 2.5%.
I started playing during the time that illegal procedure was still official. I have never played with it included, because every tournament and league I played before it was officially removed specified that it was only to be used if both opponents agreed before the match. I have also had very few instances of the turn counter not being moved in a way which was not easily rectified (e.g., our counters don't match, whoever is behind one has obviously missed moving theirs once).
Fantastic topic!! I've been doing minitures for 12 years over many systems and the one thing I've learned is "it's who you play with not what you play." Had a great time playing games I utterly lost or had no idea how to play the game. I've also had horrible times playing systems I love just cause my opponent was a pain.
For me, a game gets frustrating if a player constantly forgets to turn their players around after moving them (we normally turn them as a convention), or turns stunned players face-up at the start of the turn. I don't blame them for it, as things are easy to forget, but it can become a headache if it's constant - as it can hand players additional activations by accident. I also think it's a bit cr*pt when players don't seem to respect the difference between high and low tier teams, so take all Tier 1 teams or, worse, then also treat their win vs Halflings as if they definitely outplayed their opponent. I'm not a fan of situations where a player's 'skill rings' are comprehensible only to them. I don't mind 'takebacks' to some degree, but I do if the player's been shuffling their players around like a pea under a cup before reversing it. Or where people argue for house-rules that happen to favour their own teams. Against me, I'm a slow player unless I'm on the clock - so I feel my opponent's pain! Worse, I won the last league I was in but it was very close and included me accidentally playing with 12 players in the final games turn (albeit only for 2 turns, and I paid the full penalty of losing a Tomb Guardian who also had the ball).
This is an EXCELLENT video. Thanks guys!
Solid list! Love this conversation and great job Ben!
Great topic and often overlooked
Thanks
Great video Ben!
Love the content
Surgical gloves or no play!
I believe in providing always my best game, so I try to be clear (by explaining my teams, using skill rings, nicely painted miniatures and markers for everything), be helpful (help moving, remembering skills and sometimes advice), do not give up (even if diced or with a full casualty box), be a good winner or loser (do not claim someone is just lucky or you have bad dice). What I really hate is unpainted miniatures, even more proxy miniatures (non blood bowl miniatures or Ogre being a Troll) and people just complaining (especially about lucky dice because it is typically just good placement because if you need to roll dice you made something wrong or your opponent did something right and if it is more difficult it was better or worse).
Turn markers and turning players. The way I do it to remember to move my turn marker. When my opponent says his turn is over, and starts turning around his players, I take this time to turn my marker. His hands will be all around the bord turning his players anyway, so instead of sitting there watching, I use that as a reminder to move my turn marker.
I also "refuse" to touch other people's models. My friends often say "you can just move him", and I reply "thanks, but I want him moved over there *point at square". I don't mind if the other player touch my player, but I am fairly quick touching the model to indicate that I am about to move it ^^
Cocked dice: Can you balance another dice on top and it doesn't fall off, it's good. If the dice falls off, reroll is in order. You can get as much time and attempts you want to balance it (it probably won't help anyway :D )
Great list and a really interesting points. Not playing in person with strangers so the touching others models was one i will take away
regarding the skill rings, what are the ones you guys used on the bonehead championship?
They use Williy miniatures ones which are 10 (5 colors) for 4,95 €. Only problems I have with them: You can not chose the color, so I have each color 4 times, but having some more colors would be good. And they only offer 32 mm, but I still have some 25 mm miniatures and many 40mm Big guys.