I’d like to give a really big shoutout to u/RockWithAMedicineCup for their original research and write-up of this topic on r/teslore, it’s the main thing I based the research for this video off of so they definitely deserve most of the credit. They made lots of great contributions to both r/teslore and UESP so please check them out! Link to the original Reddit post is in the description.
It's interesting how Jagar Tharn was originally planned to be the Elder Scrolls series' equivalent to figures like Ganon from the Zelda series, a singular iconic villain who serves as the "main" antagonist of the series as a whole. But, by the time of Oblivion, they just have realized that recurring villains have become a stale trope.
Yes, because why would you want a singular character to be a source of conflict driving your main plots when you don't have the skill to make interesting main plots anyways. XD
I prefer it this way. The Elder Scrolls has become a series chronicling the history of Tamriel, rather than one particular conflict with one particular person. It makes TES feel broader in scope.
I imagine the story of Oblivion not incorporating these elements is in part due to the absence of the writers responsible for them. By the time Oblivion was being made, writers like Kirkbride and Peterson (which is to say, the genuinely talented writers) were no longer involved in any significant capacity.
@@JayBMods That's why I say he wasn't involved in a significant capacity. He wrote Mankar Camoran's paradise monolog, but even that was tertiary to the larger narrative.
There's also the matter of deadlines and studios sadly having to cut corners at times. I'll give the example of The Witcher 3, often mentioned in conversations of the greatest RPG's of this generation. The amount of cut content could practically make an entire DLC expansion. Most painful by far was the planned storyline about an outbreak of the Catriona Plague, with the player having to find a cure and meeting Iorveth (who never appeared in Witcher 3). Just like the expanded Oblivion storyline, they had to scrap it to meet deadlines and crap, much to the chagrin of us players.
I think Michael would take great issue with your exclusion of his writing partners. Ken and Kurt’s contributions are monumental. Kirkbribes opinion was that Kurt was THE lore master of BGS before his layoff.
There's also mention from Wulf at the Ghostgate in Morrowind before the Dagoth Ur fight that "The Empire has grown to be too old. Maybe there needs to be a change and soon." (or something similar to that) Wulf disappears after you talk to him and turns out to be an aspect of Talos and gives you the "Old Man's Lucky Coin." Granted it is minimal to the Tharn plot point, but considering Talos (Tiber Septim) himself is explaining the plot of the next game and in a prominent main story area before the ending was pretty interesting as well.
He did indeed if I remember correctly. I guess in terms of the original plot we COULD imagine this as Camoran being the latest reincarnation of Tharn, but that’s just a way you can think of it if you want to connect the plots, pure head canon on my part
Mehrunes Dagon is Chaotic Evil, focused on destruction and upheaval. Molag Bal strikes me as Lawful Evil, a demonic tyrant whose goal is to hold mortals in bondage under his absolute authority. So they had a different big bad starring in different games (Oblivion and ESO).
@@LarsOfTheMohicansI'd argue Mehrunes Dagon isn't really evil. His nature is not fundamentally evil. His nature is change, revolution, hope and even liberty. Destruction and upheaval of the present order is merely a means to that end. His very creation served to upend Molag Bal's domination over Lyg, which you'd think to be fundamentally good. His moral alignment is really a matter of perspective. As a Daedra of course he can only be lawfully aligned, even if that law is his nature of change, revolution, hope and liberty. He brought an end to the Empire of Lyg dominated by Molag Bal and now he has brought an end to the Empire of Tamriel dominated by Akatosh and his fellow divines, and when eventually a new empire emerges that takes over the entire known world he will be back to put an end to it.
@@Quintinohthree I'm not buying the "Daedra Princes can only be lawful" angle at all. Explain Sheogorath, the embodiment of madness. Seeing as they're, in layman's terms, the TES equivalent of top-ranking demons in Hell, their morals are entirely incomprehensible to most mortals as they've transcended mortal concepts of good and evil. As such, their actions will routinely strike as mortals as evil even if by the Daedra's own particular logic, they might be serving the greater good. For example, look at Mankar Camoran's Paradise; it's paradise and Elysium on the surface, but Mankar's chosen get killed over and over again in a never-ending cycle of immortality. Why? Because they are being trained to become superior, Daedric warriors, to transcend their human weakness (which strikes me as similar to the Lake of Fire in Hell, human spirits are supposedly dumped in there and after all their human weakness is burned away, they emerge as demonic spirits for Hell's army). Except the entire process is very poorly thought out (I don't know, maybe make sure they're able to kill something like a Scamp before they can take down a Dremora?) and strikes our mortal sensibilities as eternal torture. In other words, Hell. So, much like the djinn from Wishmaster, a Daedra Prince may offer mortals liberty or paradise but it usually comes with strings attached. The final product registering to a mortal as an evil or undesirable outcome.
Im happy with how oblivion's story turned out. Mainly because it's Generic RPG Plot seen from the other perspective. If you think about it, Martin is the stereotypical Chosen One undertaking a Hero's Journey. Living in a peaceful city at the start (tutorial) then getting assaulted by 'totally not basic demons' (first mission) and getting informed by a Mysterious Saviour NPC (player) that he is a chosen lost son of an emperor. After cloud ruler temple it blurs out a little bit but only due to Blades not being idiots and sending their Chosen One on dangerous fetch quests.
I had no idea! This is some super deep research, well appreciated. I think it's for the best the Mankor Camoran & Mythic Dawn became the new story points. Otherwise it would've been another "and somehow, Palpatine returned"
Thank you! Yeah I think it all worked out for the best too honestly, Oblivion is an already great game, but I would be lying if I said that Jagar Tharn returning wouldn’t have been really interesting.
To be fair, Tharn's death was already so vague and odd to begin with (that jewel holds his lifeforce? Why? Since when? This was never established until now!) that I don't think it'd be a big deal for him to return - not to mention just how different the magic is between TES and Star Wars, and I don't think that's too comparable. Plus, Tharn never had his true potential tapped into, unlike Palpatine who already had a 6 film saga dedicated to his antagonism. That's not to say I love the idea of Tharn returning, but it's better than Palpatine as far as I'm concerned. Regardless, I'm still sorely disappointed by Oblivion throwing away all the potential plot threads set up in previous games, however obvious or subtle. So much missed potential to tie up loose ends (that were intentionally left untied for this purpose). Like, the Emperor's heirs may be impostors? Nope, just kill them all before the game starts; we don't need anything that interesting. Riots in the Imperial capital? Nah, even after _the emperor was murdered in the city,_ people barely care. And even before watching this video, some similarities between Tharn and Cammoran are obvious, and it's a little odd they didn't further reference Arena and Battlespire; maybe you try and stop Dagon the way he was defeated in Battlespire only for it to be futile or something. Who knows? The chance has come and gone.
I knew smth was up with these plot points (it's really interesting how this was brought up so many times, I never knew that!). It's a shame this version didn't come to be, but what we got was still pretty good imo Thank you so much for the video!! 💖
Interesting idea. I wish someone would release a mod that uses such a plot. That would explain why in the game there are several npc's affiliated to the mystic dawn and although you can discover and kill them, they are not related to any secondary or main mission. I would assume that the first vision of this quest chain would be to investigate said npc, discover their relation to the mystic dawn and find out that they are some of them are inflated in high imperial office.
This sounds cool but, with or without Jagar Tharn, I wish there'd been more about the Mythic Dawn and what a "cult" is in Cyrodiil and how peripheral cults connect with Imperial society and politics and the official Imperial Cult. There's so much interesting stuff they could have done drawing on Roman religion and cults and factional politics. Instead, the Nine Divines are a generic Christian-inspired church and the Mythic Dawn are generic devil worshipers doing evil for the lulz.
There were supposed to be hundreds of cults, cyrodiil was supposed to be very different environmentally wise. Lush jungles, giant rice fields, massive wetlands around the imperial city. Hell dragons were supppsed to live there, it was supposed to be very Romanesque, and the imperial cultures were supposed to be at the forefront, Colovians, nibenese, and a more Roman melding of the two cultures in the imperial city.
Plot with Jagar Tharn sounds like a nice ending to original story… end of an era arranged by the very person we were (as a Shezzarine) brought because of to it. And idea of Morang Tong as clutists and Emperor Assassins in some way is funny, it would not be the first time hahae, but I am not sure if this fits Morang Tong. I am although definitely sure it does not fit Dark Brotherhood. Albeit it would be very interesting to see Tharn, and maybe add some nice lore, like he remembers You, and tells You about reincarnation, that You are still the same hero, Shezzarine, of course still use this Marcarn lore, that Mundus is just Shezzar's plane of Oblivion. Of course I like Marcarn, but this idea sounds pleasand to me as well. Maybe Marcarn is another reincarnation, avatarisation if You will, of Jagar. All being said please excuse me this making up of lore and my headcannon maybe hahahae.
Personally, I don't agree with the theory that BGS thought it would be too complicated to have Jagar Tharn involved with Oblivion's plot. Mostly because he already is, supposedly. Uriel Septim VII had dreams before the events of Oblivion, and we could trace this back to his time imprisoned by Tharn and Dagon., where it is stated he had Dreams/Nightmares durring his imprisonment. Tharn is also referenced many times in Oblivion. It would have been near impossible for a new player not to hear/Read about Tharn in the game. I think having an incarnate of Tharn run a cult like the Mythic Dawn would have been so much cooler. A thought did occur while watching the Video though... What if BGS didn't fully abandon the Idea? When you mentioned the towers, my mind went straight to the Thalmor. We don't have much lore about the upper ranks of the Thalmor, so what if Tharn or agents of his are influencing things from the Shadows? Really enjoyed the video BTW I remember reading up on some of the info from this video but never put the pieces together completely myself, but I did remember the name/Idea Tharnatos as well as it's refrence to Thanatos. Yoou just earned yourself a Sub for the high quality content. Though I prefer longer videos myself, it just allows for more exploration of an idea or concept rather than being strictly informative.
While i think it wouldve been cool to see some reference to him in Oblivion, i think its fine that they strayed from the original plan. That said... TES6.... 👀
Day-gen? I know sometimes people prefer to pronounce words a certain way because they read it that way for years, and i do realize irl the real Dagon is pronounced that way, but its still weird someone not pronouncing it Day-Gon.
yeah, the story of the enshittification of Elder Scrolls. Todd "don't fix it, cut it" Howard and Emil "ignore the reviews" Pagliarulo. And whoever was their boss, too, for letting them run wild with their stupid idea off widest possible appeal
Boo-frickety-hoo, mah precious Michael Kirkbride no longer there with his acid trip fever dream game concepts, which would be a nightmare to adequately program into the game. His grandiloquent vision of the Imperial City totally would've worked, trust me bro.
One point I'm willing to concede to you is Todd's "streamline it straight to hell" mentality, gameplay-wise. You have a game set in medieval fantasy Rome and you'll flat out delete all spears and halberds from the game? Really, bro? Because the Imperial Legion would not have fought with spears? And the reworked lore of crossbows being abandoned as a concept in favor of the longbow makes them come across as a remarkably stupid military culture, considering how much of a game changer the crossbow was irl. But those gameplay chestnuts are all I'm willing to gripe about, I don't weep for the lost jungle landscape or whatever lame mutant enemies Kirkbride would've brainstormed up (a mouth on two legs, in three unique flavors!).
@@LarsOfTheMohicans Kirkbride wasn't the only guy who worked on Morrowind, you forget other key writers who left right after too, like Bruce Nesmith who actually wrote a lot of the main quest
@@LarsOfTheMohicans You don't need to completely placate MK to make his ideas useful like they have been. Also, what point do you think you're making exactly? Just because you don't care about a particular thing doesn't mean no one else does or should. It only seemsto me like you have a hateboner towards the guy for no reason at all.
Thanks for the analysis! I just don't get BGS' reasoning though. Why would Bethesda oversimplify things when they knew they'd have to dump a lot of exposition about the main story antagonist anyways? They've got Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes that had clearly received a lot of effort. They even mentioned Tharn's shenanigans on their LOADING SCREENS for Kyne's sake! Why don't they use stuff that's already there? It wouldn't be harder to implement, and to the new players, both Camoran and Tharn would seem equally new and fresh. Instead of Tharn returning to power, we've got Camoran and Mannimarco returning to power. So it's essentially the same trope done with other characters. I just don't get it.
Would have made more sense. we're never given much backstory to the mythic dawn and mankar camoran aside from his supposed connection with the camoran dynasty of valenwood. If they had written the mythic dawn and mankar as being agents of Tharn it would tie in more. Alas expect nothing less from BGS a company that hires idiots who can't write or try to simplify and stupidify everything.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
I’d like to give a really big shoutout to u/RockWithAMedicineCup for their original research and write-up of this topic on r/teslore, it’s the main thing I based the research for this video off of so they definitely deserve most of the credit. They made lots of great contributions to both r/teslore and UESP so please check them out!
Link to the original Reddit post is in the description.
Wait till you see what interviews and texts are yet to be released.
It's interesting how Jagar Tharn was originally planned to be the Elder Scrolls series' equivalent to figures like Ganon from the Zelda series, a singular iconic villain who serves as the "main" antagonist of the series as a whole. But, by the time of Oblivion, they just have realized that recurring villains have become a stale trope.
Although they did it to Mannimarco anyways
Yes, because why would you want a singular character to be a source of conflict driving your main plots when you don't have the skill to make interesting main plots anyways. XD
I prefer it this way. The Elder Scrolls has become a series chronicling the history of Tamriel, rather than one particular conflict with one particular person. It makes TES feel broader in scope.
I imagine the story of Oblivion not incorporating these elements is in part due to the absence of the writers responsible for them. By the time Oblivion was being made, writers like Kirkbride and Peterson (which is to say, the genuinely talented writers) were no longer involved in any significant capacity.
Yeah I imagine that's also a really big part of it, I honestly wonder if this plot would have actually been used if they stuck around
Kirkbride wrote a number of new books for Oblivion though, like the Remanada and Song of Pelinal
@@JayBMods That's why I say he wasn't involved in a significant capacity. He wrote Mankar Camoran's paradise monolog, but even that was tertiary to the larger narrative.
There's also the matter of deadlines and studios sadly having to cut corners at times. I'll give the example of The Witcher 3, often mentioned in conversations of the greatest RPG's of this generation. The amount of cut content could practically make an entire DLC expansion. Most painful by far was the planned storyline about an outbreak of the Catriona Plague, with the player having to find a cure and meeting Iorveth (who never appeared in Witcher 3). Just like the expanded Oblivion storyline, they had to scrap it to meet deadlines and crap, much to the chagrin of us players.
I think Michael would take great issue with your exclusion of his writing partners. Ken and Kurt’s contributions are monumental. Kirkbribes opinion was that Kurt was THE lore master of BGS before his layoff.
There's also mention from Wulf at the Ghostgate in Morrowind before the Dagoth Ur fight that "The Empire has grown to be too old. Maybe there needs to be a change and soon." (or something similar to that) Wulf disappears after you talk to him and turns out to be an aspect of Talos and gives you the "Old Man's Lucky Coin." Granted it is minimal to the Tharn plot point, but considering Talos (Tiber Septim) himself is explaining the plot of the next game and in a prominent main story area before the ending was pretty interesting as well.
“Somehow… jagar tharn returned.”
TH-cam translated to *chase* tharn
Finally we can get lore without stretching it to 3 hours video
The original storyline for Skyrim involving the return of Uriel II (with dragons), is equally as up there.
That would have been proper cool, shame they didn't do it.
Uriel V*
I had no idea about this, amazing!
Didn't Markar Camoran have family ties with Jagar Tharn? I seem to recall something around these lines...
He did indeed if I remember correctly.
I guess in terms of the original plot we COULD imagine this as Camoran being the latest reincarnation of Tharn, but that’s just a way you can think of it if you want to connect the plots, pure head canon on my part
I like how they had a generic demon guy in molag bal and decided to retconn an existing deity into a gore and fire obsessed satan allegory instead
Probably Emil's doing. He's an imbecile.
Molag ball is so comedically evil too! He invented RAPE
Mehrunes Dagon is Chaotic Evil, focused on destruction and upheaval. Molag Bal strikes me as Lawful Evil, a demonic tyrant whose goal is to hold mortals in bondage under his absolute authority. So they had a different big bad starring in different games (Oblivion and ESO).
@@LarsOfTheMohicansI'd argue Mehrunes Dagon isn't really evil. His nature is not fundamentally evil. His nature is change, revolution, hope and even liberty. Destruction and upheaval of the present order is merely a means to that end. His very creation served to upend Molag Bal's domination over Lyg, which you'd think to be fundamentally good. His moral alignment is really a matter of perspective. As a Daedra of course he can only be lawfully aligned, even if that law is his nature of change, revolution, hope and liberty. He brought an end to the Empire of Lyg dominated by Molag Bal and now he has brought an end to the Empire of Tamriel dominated by Akatosh and his fellow divines, and when eventually a new empire emerges that takes over the entire known world he will be back to put an end to it.
@@Quintinohthree I'm not buying the "Daedra Princes can only be lawful" angle at all. Explain Sheogorath, the embodiment of madness. Seeing as they're, in layman's terms, the TES equivalent of top-ranking demons in Hell, their morals are entirely incomprehensible to most mortals as they've transcended mortal concepts of good and evil. As such, their actions will routinely strike as mortals as evil even if by the Daedra's own particular logic, they might be serving the greater good. For example, look at Mankar Camoran's Paradise; it's paradise and Elysium on the surface, but Mankar's chosen get killed over and over again in a never-ending cycle of immortality. Why? Because they are being trained to become superior, Daedric warriors, to transcend their human weakness (which strikes me as similar to the Lake of Fire in Hell, human spirits are supposedly dumped in there and after all their human weakness is burned away, they emerge as demonic spirits for Hell's army). Except the entire process is very poorly thought out (I don't know, maybe make sure they're able to kill something like a Scamp before they can take down a Dremora?) and strikes our mortal sensibilities as eternal torture. In other words, Hell.
So, much like the djinn from Wishmaster, a Daedra Prince may offer mortals liberty or paradise but it usually comes with strings attached. The final product registering to a mortal as an evil or undesirable outcome.
Im happy with how oblivion's story turned out. Mainly because it's Generic RPG Plot seen from the other perspective.
If you think about it, Martin is the stereotypical Chosen One undertaking a Hero's Journey.
Living in a peaceful city at the start (tutorial) then getting assaulted by 'totally not basic demons' (first mission) and getting informed by a Mysterious Saviour NPC (player) that he is a chosen lost son of an emperor. After cloud ruler temple it blurs out a little bit but only due to Blades not being idiots and sending their Chosen One on dangerous fetch quests.
I had no idea! This is some super deep research, well appreciated. I think it's for the best the Mankor Camoran & Mythic Dawn became the new story points. Otherwise it would've been another "and somehow, Palpatine returned"
Thank you!
Yeah I think it all worked out for the best too honestly, Oblivion is an already great game, but I would be lying if I said that Jagar Tharn returning wouldn’t have been really interesting.
To be fair, Tharn's death was already so vague and odd to begin with (that jewel holds his lifeforce? Why? Since when? This was never established until now!) that I don't think it'd be a big deal for him to return - not to mention just how different the magic is between TES and Star Wars, and I don't think that's too comparable. Plus, Tharn never had his true potential tapped into, unlike Palpatine who already had a 6 film saga dedicated to his antagonism. That's not to say I love the idea of Tharn returning, but it's better than Palpatine as far as I'm concerned.
Regardless, I'm still sorely disappointed by Oblivion throwing away all the potential plot threads set up in previous games, however obvious or subtle. So much missed potential to tie up loose ends (that were intentionally left untied for this purpose). Like, the Emperor's heirs may be impostors? Nope, just kill them all before the game starts; we don't need anything that interesting. Riots in the Imperial capital? Nah, even after _the emperor was murdered in the city,_ people barely care.
And even before watching this video, some similarities between Tharn and Cammoran are obvious, and it's a little odd they didn't further reference Arena and Battlespire; maybe you try and stop Dagon the way he was defeated in Battlespire only for it to be futile or something. Who knows? The chance has come and gone.
aaaw man that would have been cool to see a reincarnating assassin or one in the games that would be so cool.
maybe they’ll bring it back for tes 6 👀
@@ceedott indeed that would be funny to see Astrid in that game wo my character can kill her.
I knew smth was up with these plot points (it's really interesting how this was brought up so many times, I never knew that!). It's a shame this version didn't come to be, but what we got was still pretty good imo
Thank you so much for the video!! 💖
Thank you for watching it!
Interesting idea. I wish someone would release a mod that uses such a plot.
That would explain why in the game there are several npc's affiliated to the mystic dawn and although you can discover and kill them, they are not related to any secondary or main mission.
I would assume that the first vision of this quest chain would be to investigate said npc, discover their relation to the mystic dawn and find out that they are some of them are inflated in high imperial office.
Thanks YT recommendation for this
Never heard about any of this. Thanks for sharing!
Thank you for watching!
This sounds cool but, with or without Jagar Tharn, I wish there'd been more about the Mythic Dawn and what a "cult" is in Cyrodiil and how peripheral cults connect with Imperial society and politics and the official Imperial Cult. There's so much interesting stuff they could have done drawing on Roman religion and cults and factional politics. Instead, the Nine Divines are a generic Christian-inspired church and the Mythic Dawn are generic devil worshipers doing evil for the lulz.
There were supposed to be hundreds of cults, cyrodiil was supposed to be very different environmentally wise. Lush jungles, giant rice fields, massive wetlands around the imperial city. Hell dragons were supppsed to live there, it was supposed to be very Romanesque, and the imperial cultures were supposed to be at the forefront, Colovians, nibenese, and a more Roman melding of the two cultures in the imperial city.
Plot with Jagar Tharn sounds like a nice ending to original story… end of an era arranged by the very person we were (as a Shezzarine) brought because of to it. And idea of Morang Tong as clutists and Emperor Assassins in some way is funny, it would not be the first time hahae, but I am not sure if this fits Morang Tong. I am although definitely sure it does not fit Dark Brotherhood. Albeit it would be very interesting to see Tharn, and maybe add some nice lore, like he remembers You, and tells You about reincarnation, that You are still the same hero, Shezzarine, of course still use this Marcarn lore, that Mundus is just Shezzar's plane of Oblivion. Of course I like Marcarn, but this idea sounds pleasand to me as well. Maybe Marcarn is another reincarnation, avatarisation if You will, of Jagar. All being said please excuse me this making up of lore and my headcannon maybe hahahae.
god this makes me miss kirkbride and peterson so much
I keep getting Jagar Tharn and Mankar Camoran’s names muddled up; now I know why.
Personally, I don't agree with the theory that BGS thought it would be too complicated to have Jagar Tharn involved with Oblivion's plot. Mostly because he already is, supposedly. Uriel Septim VII had dreams before the events of Oblivion, and we could trace this back to his time imprisoned by Tharn and Dagon., where it is stated he had Dreams/Nightmares durring his imprisonment. Tharn is also referenced many times in Oblivion. It would have been near impossible for a new player not to hear/Read about Tharn in the game. I think having an incarnate of Tharn run a cult like the Mythic Dawn would have been so much cooler. A thought did occur while watching the Video though... What if BGS didn't fully abandon the Idea? When you mentioned the towers, my mind went straight to the Thalmor. We don't have much lore about the upper ranks of the Thalmor, so what if Tharn or agents of his are influencing things from the Shadows? Really enjoyed the video BTW I remember reading up on some of the info from this video but never put the pieces together completely myself, but I did remember the name/Idea Tharnatos as well as it's refrence to Thanatos. Yoou just earned yourself a Sub for the high quality content. Though I prefer longer videos myself, it just allows for more exploration of an idea or concept rather than being strictly informative.
I used to use mods to quite literally turn the TES4 MQ off and play the game like Grand Theft Cyrodil. It was much more fun that way.
While i think it wouldve been cool to see some reference to him in Oblivion, i think its fine that they strayed from the original plan.
That said... TES6.... 👀
Day-gen?
I know sometimes people prefer to pronounce words a certain way because they read it that way for years, and i do realize irl the real Dagon is pronounced that way, but its still weird someone not pronouncing it Day-Gon.
yeah, the story of the enshittification of Elder Scrolls.
Todd "don't fix it, cut it" Howard and Emil "ignore the reviews" Pagliarulo. And whoever was their boss, too, for letting them run wild with their stupid idea off widest possible appeal
Well they made a great game so it did turn out well in the end.
Boo-frickety-hoo, mah precious Michael Kirkbride no longer there with his acid trip fever dream game concepts, which would be a nightmare to adequately program into the game. His grandiloquent vision of the Imperial City totally would've worked, trust me bro.
One point I'm willing to concede to you is Todd's "streamline it straight to hell" mentality, gameplay-wise. You have a game set in medieval fantasy Rome and you'll flat out delete all spears and halberds from the game? Really, bro? Because the Imperial Legion would not have fought with spears? And the reworked lore of crossbows being abandoned as a concept in favor of the longbow makes them come across as a remarkably stupid military culture, considering how much of a game changer the crossbow was irl. But those gameplay chestnuts are all I'm willing to gripe about, I don't weep for the lost jungle landscape or whatever lame mutant enemies Kirkbride would've brainstormed up (a mouth on two legs, in three unique flavors!).
@@LarsOfTheMohicans Kirkbride wasn't the only guy who worked on Morrowind, you forget other key writers who left right after too, like Bruce Nesmith who actually wrote a lot of the main quest
@@LarsOfTheMohicans You don't need to completely placate MK to make his ideas useful like they have been.
Also, what point do you think you're making exactly? Just because you don't care about a particular thing doesn't mean no one else does or should. It only seemsto me like you have a hateboner towards the guy for no reason at all.
another instance of bethesda going "what can we cut" instead of add
Rock sweeeeeep
Thanks for the analysis!
I just don't get BGS' reasoning though. Why would Bethesda oversimplify things when they knew they'd have to dump a lot of exposition about the main story antagonist anyways? They've got Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes that had clearly received a lot of effort. They even mentioned Tharn's shenanigans on their LOADING SCREENS for Kyne's sake! Why don't they use stuff that's already there? It wouldn't be harder to implement, and to the new players, both Camoran and Tharn would seem equally new and fresh. Instead of Tharn returning to power, we've got Camoran and Mannimarco returning to power. So it's essentially the same trope done with other characters. I just don't get it.
🤯
Yeah, weird plots like this are why Kirkbride isn't with the company anymore.
Weirder plots have been made since and yet Emil Pagliarulo still keeps on Emil Pagliaruling.
Would have made more sense. we're never given much backstory to the mythic dawn and mankar camoran aside from his supposed connection with the camoran dynasty of valenwood. If they had written the mythic dawn and mankar as being agents of Tharn it would tie in more.
Alas expect nothing less from BGS a company that hires idiots who can't write or try to simplify and stupidify everything.
Interesting.