The second theory was inspired by a post I found while researching this topic, so credit is due to the author. Link in the description if you want to read the whole thing!
This is a channel we have needed in the elder scrolls, covering more obscure lore. I like alternate scenarios we don’t see playing out, like if the Thalmor or Mankar succeeded.
Really solid theory, it was probably played fast and loose to begin with, knowing how the early days went, but by the time we get to Morrowind pre-production, I'm sure Ken Ralston or Michael Kirkbride had delved this rabbit hole and hid subtle breadcrumbs that wouldn't be chanced upon for 20 years!
I actually grew to like Tharn somewhat throughout the game. I wouldn't say he was "cartoonishly evil", either. Although he was definitely twisted, there are points in the later stages of the game where he speaks you as a legitimate opponent, not just constantly speaking to you condescendingly throughout your entire anti-campaign against him, like so many other characters in this series. It always felt silly and unrealistic that opponents in these games would shit talk you and mock your efforts to defeat them up until the very moment that you are literally defeating them. Not the case with Tharn, though. As early as halfway through the game, his demeanor towards you changes and he starts to acknowledge you as a serious threat. From then onwards, he begins to greatly respect you and starts considering the possibility that he might have to actually face you directly because it doesn't appear that there is anyone or anything on Tamriel, at that time, that would be capable of matching you, except for him. Ultimately, this is exactly how things end up, with him challenging you one on one to come to the Palace and duel him, bringing everything to a close one way or the other. Which lends credence to the theory that he was making preparations as he could have been preparing a candidate to face the dangers coming to Tamriel and it came down to who was more powerful and eligible for the task- you, or him.
You're exactly right, but you try explaining this to the lesser races. I foresaw everything, but apparently the Eternal Champion was a "Ruling King" able to rewrite the future. I killed him countless times, but he was drawn back to the world each time to try again. Reality is a cruel joke.
I kind of struggle to see the second theory in light of Tharn's cartoon-villain tier comments throughout the game and keeping contact with the player (Who is increasingly close to defeating him) without ever trying to reveal his real intentions.
Yeah that’s very fair. Again, Tharn was always probably just intended to be a cartoonishly evil villain, but it makes him seem really one dimensional compared to other TES villains. I think this theory adds a lot of depth to his character and is really interesting to think about, in that by defeating Tharn you would actually be dooming the world to a terrible fate. Though again, it is just a theory lol.
I was trying to intimidate him. How could I know he was a chosen hero, mantled by someone from a higher plane of existence? He never said a word to me.
I feel like if the point of the imperial simulacrum was to stall the oblivion crisis, we would be able to tell by uriel's reaction to being freed. He seems quite happy to be back, and quite upset with tharn. Also, when you play arena, you die frequently enough that YOU WERE A FOOL TO CHALLENGE ME gets burned into your brain. Tharn had every opportunity to tell the eternal champion, "hey man, hear me out, I'm actually doing this to stop something crazy from happening", and if the eternal champion didn't believe him, then when the empirer is "released", he'd say something along the lines of "homie what are you doing, I was gone for a reason"
Interesting stuff always thought Jagar Tharn was underveloped, really cool to see this and all the other looks you do into TES lore that most people don't cover. Keep it up!
Here is a theory: Both Jagar Tharn and Mankar Cameron are descendants of Ailieds, and they want to restore the Ailied Empire. Both have connections to Mehrunes Dagan, and both are a bit different from other elves. Tharn being officially a Bosmer, but described as some kind of elf of unknown origin. And Mankar Cameran has slightly darker complexion than other high elves, which is how Ailieds are described. And they might even have corresponded or plotted together. Cameron might even have been an apprentice of Tharn. Umbacano is also a potential Ailied. And despite the failure of both Tharn and Cameron, they still managed to conquer the empire through the Thalmor. A political movement possible led by Ailieds. As far as I know the surviving Ailieds were similar enough to the Altmer to bland in, meaning that the surviving ones could have been biding their time, and raised their descendents according to the Ailied ways in secret. It would also further explain the disdain that the Thalmor has for the worship of Talos, as it was humans that allied against the Ailieds and destroyed their empire.
I like to think that tharn and Cameron were played by Dagon. Tharn thought because of his intelligence he could be a good enough statesman to hold things together, he thought he could placate Dagon with the battlespire, he thought he could stop it, but it was all according to dagons plan. Likewise Mankaar Cameron thought that Dagon actually cared about taking over the world, but again, Dagon played him, all he wanted was change, and even Martin Septim, thinking he beat him, actually gave him exactly what he wanted. (Maybe there’s someway to tie daggerfall and morrowind into that as well)
Nah he was definitely working with Mehrunes Dagon in an attempt to weaken the empire and soften Tamriel up for his invasion. That's why Dagon let him trap the emperor in his realm. That's why Dagon gave Tharn some of his minions to act as guards. That's why things went so bad so quickly during Tharn's rule. It wasn't incompetence, it was maliciousness.
The biggest misstep of Starfield was that Bethesda could’ve made an Elder Scrolls game based off of Coda. Sci-Fi Elder Scrolls would’ve been an insane departure but so killer if done correctly.
The parallel theory would've required way too much foresight on the writers' part, it assumes that they already had the Oblivion Crisis planned out well over a decade in advance. Nevertheless, an intriguing thought exercise.
honestly given the amount of magic bullshit throughout the elder scrolls, i say fuck it why not make tharn into a tragic character haunted and maddened by his actions preparing for a crisis too far in advance. someone should just write an official elder scrolls novel with that premise honestly
The second theory was inspired by a post I found while researching this topic, so credit is due to the author. Link in the description if you want to read the whole thing!
2:45 why does this look like something that came out of Warhammer 40k!?
@@Jamiemundy32just thought the style was really cool lol
This is a channel we have needed in the elder scrolls, covering more obscure lore. I like alternate scenarios we don’t see playing out, like if the Thalmor or Mankar succeeded.
Really solid theory, it was probably played fast and loose to begin with, knowing how the early days went, but by the time we get to Morrowind pre-production, I'm sure Ken Ralston or Michael Kirkbride had delved this rabbit hole and hid subtle breadcrumbs that wouldn't be chanced upon for 20 years!
I actually grew to like Tharn somewhat throughout the game. I wouldn't say he was "cartoonishly evil", either. Although he was definitely twisted, there are points in the later stages of the game where he speaks you as a legitimate opponent, not just constantly speaking to you condescendingly throughout your entire anti-campaign against him, like so many other characters in this series. It always felt silly and unrealistic that opponents in these games would shit talk you and mock your efforts to defeat them up until the very moment that you are literally defeating them.
Not the case with Tharn, though. As early as halfway through the game, his demeanor towards you changes and he starts to acknowledge you as a serious threat. From then onwards, he begins to greatly respect you and starts considering the possibility that he might have to actually face you directly because it doesn't appear that there is anyone or anything on Tamriel, at that time, that would be capable of matching you, except for him. Ultimately, this is exactly how things end up, with him challenging you one on one to come to the Palace and duel him, bringing everything to a close one way or the other.
Which lends credence to the theory that he was making preparations as he could have been preparing a candidate to face the dangers coming to Tamriel and it came down to who was more powerful and eligible for the task- you, or him.
It's always interesting seeing that Tharn sees you more as his rival than his enemy as you get further into the plot.
You're exactly right, but you try explaining this to the lesser races. I foresaw everything, but apparently the Eternal Champion was a "Ruling King" able to rewrite the future. I killed him countless times, but he was drawn back to the world each time to try again. Reality is a cruel joke.
It’s so gay when people larp like this lmao
@@dennisthefivestarman8177not as gay as people that hate on it
@@dennisthefivestarman8177 Disgusting fur beast
I kind of struggle to see the second theory in light of Tharn's cartoon-villain tier comments throughout the game and keeping contact with the player (Who is increasingly close to defeating him) without ever trying to reveal his real intentions.
Yeah that’s very fair. Again, Tharn was always probably just intended to be a cartoonishly evil villain, but it makes him seem really one dimensional compared to other TES villains. I think this theory adds a lot of depth to his character and is really interesting to think about, in that by defeating Tharn you would actually be dooming the world to a terrible fate. Though again, it is just a theory lol.
I was trying to intimidate him. How could I know he was a chosen hero, mantled by someone from a higher plane of existence? He never said a word to me.
I could see the Empire deteriorating and being increasingly taxed as Tharn diverts resources into preparations for the Oblivion Crisis.
I like that you also just acknowledge that sometimes it's just simplistic writing.
I feel like if the point of the imperial simulacrum was to stall the oblivion crisis, we would be able to tell by uriel's reaction to being freed. He seems quite happy to be back, and quite upset with tharn.
Also, when you play arena, you die frequently enough that YOU WERE A FOOL TO CHALLENGE ME gets burned into your brain. Tharn had every opportunity to tell the eternal champion, "hey man, hear me out, I'm actually doing this to stop something crazy from happening", and if the eternal champion didn't believe him, then when the empirer is "released", he'd say something along the lines of "homie what are you doing, I was gone for a reason"
Interesting stuff always thought Jagar Tharn was underveloped, really cool to see this and all the other looks you do into TES lore that most people don't cover. Keep it up!
Thank you! I’m glad you enjoy them!
“Jagar Tharn as tragic hero” is a compelling story.
The real reason why the empire went into such decline during the Imperial Simulacrum is because Tharn was too busy slamming prime dunmussy
Considering how the first theory ties into Morrowind, I think it's probably the 'canon' explanation
Here is a theory: Both Jagar Tharn and Mankar Cameron are descendants of Ailieds, and they want to restore the Ailied Empire. Both have connections to Mehrunes Dagan, and both are a bit different from other elves. Tharn being officially a Bosmer, but described as some kind of elf of unknown origin. And Mankar Cameran has slightly darker complexion than other high elves, which is how Ailieds are described. And they might even have corresponded or plotted together. Cameron might even have been an apprentice of Tharn. Umbacano is also a potential Ailied. And despite the failure of both Tharn and Cameron, they still managed to conquer the empire through the Thalmor. A political movement possible led by Ailieds. As far as I know the surviving Ailieds were similar enough to the Altmer to bland in, meaning that the surviving ones could have been biding their time, and raised their descendents according to the Ailied ways in secret. It would also further explain the disdain that the Thalmor has for the worship of Talos, as it was humans that allied against the Ailieds and destroyed their empire.
I like to think that tharn and Cameron were played by Dagon. Tharn thought because of his intelligence he could be a good enough statesman to hold things together, he thought he could placate Dagon with the battlespire, he thought he could stop it, but it was all according to dagons plan. Likewise Mankaar Cameron thought that Dagon actually cared about taking over the world, but again, Dagon played him, all he wanted was change, and even Martin Septim, thinking he beat him, actually gave him exactly what he wanted. (Maybe there’s someway to tie daggerfall and morrowind into that as well)
Subscribe to this man! Top tier, refreshing, Elder Scrolls content. I hope this channel grows to receive the attention it deserves.
Thank you so much for the support!
Nah he was definitely working with Mehrunes Dagon in an attempt to weaken the empire and soften Tamriel up for his invasion.
That's why Dagon let him trap the emperor in his realm. That's why Dagon gave Tharn some of his minions to act as guards. That's why things went so bad so quickly during Tharn's rule.
It wasn't incompetence, it was maliciousness.
Best stories are told by small channels.
The biggest misstep of Starfield was that Bethesda could’ve made an Elder Scrolls game based off of Coda. Sci-Fi Elder Scrolls would’ve been an insane departure but so killer if done correctly.
The parallel theory would've required way too much foresight on the writers' part, it assumes that they already had the Oblivion Crisis planned out well over a decade in advance. Nevertheless, an intriguing thought exercise.
Lmao why the hell did i read the thumbnail as “tamriel’s thug hero” lol
I just assumed his motivation was because a Daedra told him so.
Or some long dead ayleid lich, a vengeful spirit,
Or I guess an angry daedra.
honestly given the amount of magic bullshit throughout the elder scrolls, i say fuck it why not make tharn into a tragic character haunted and maddened by his actions preparing for a crisis too far in advance. someone should just write an official elder scrolls novel with that premise honestly
07:58 Jagar Tharn dit nothing wrong.
😆😆
❤
Isn't tharng the nightingale?
is that the same tharn family as abnu tharn?