30 Year Old Winchester Classic Ammo Ballistic Test -10mm Silvertip VS .357 Mag Black Talon
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ก.พ. 2023
- Testing some old Winchester defensive ammunition in 10mm and .357 Mag. The .357 Mag is a 180 gr SXT Black Talon and the 10mm is a 175 gr Silvertip. I test the old classic Silvertip VS modern Silvertip as well. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.com/user?u=5828221
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I started in law enforcement in 1990, I carried a glock g20 in 10mm. We were issued silvertip hollow point. I still have 3 boxes of it, nervver shot it. I was excited to watch. Thanks for bringing back some memories.
Joe I carried a 20 Glock my own pistol on duty and we used the Winchester 175 gr silver tip. We did a lot of testing and it proved to be outstanding. I still use it today although I believe it's been discountined. Great full power load. We also issued the Winchester 145 gr STHHP .357 Magnum a very potent loading as well.
I really want to get black talon 10mm ammo they are charging 150 a box 😢😢
Same setup here brother. We’re telling our age now😂
@@perez5249I started in 1990 and retired in 2017 so 27 years for me. I still have 7 boxes of the 10mm silvertips. I used to tell everyone that I carried them in case I ever ran into a werewolf. lol. Thanks for responding and wishing you a very Happy Holiday.
I'm in my 50's now and even though .357 Mag on its own is fun enough, every time I hear about the Black Talon throwback I *still* giggle like a child - anyone younger just has no idea what a huge step up in projectile they were against old lead ball, wad cutter & the various other "regular" .357 we could afford to shoot without selling the wife & kids AND second mortgage
So true! Lol
I still have some Black Talons in .357, 9MM and .45 ACP however, I don't carry any of these as an EDC round any longer. I switched in the mid 2000's to a SIG P226 in .357 Sig with Hornady Extreme Duty as my personal defense round.
I have no idea where this memory comes from but I seem to remember tons and tons of controversy when the black talons hit the market, some idiotic jurisdictions trying to make them illegal to carry (not own, just carry) but that's been 30+yrs ago.. I just can't remember. No different than today's idiotic schtick from antigun gun-knownothings
Vintage ammo test is dope
Silvertips are a classic. Used to carry those in my Taurus .357 back in the late 80's & Glock 9mm in the 90's.
That heavy .357 magnum did way better than I expected. Except for the scarcity and resultant price, it'd make good overall ammo in my area.
The 10mm was really good, both modern and original. Fun tale (to me, at least) -- In January of 1991 I attended a local police academy. One of my classmates had a Colt Delt Elite 10mm. All the ammo he brought (all 500 rounds .. rich boy that he was, LOL) was Winchester Silvertips. On our night-fire course they eventually made him shoot alone because if he shot with a full line of cadets, they'd wait for him to shoot and his muzzle flash would light up the range enough for them to use their sights. LOL. Good to see that the modern version works quite well, too. :)
As for shooting long range, the whiners need to hush. Those long shots you make tell a lot about stability of the round, and no one can guarantee they're not going to have to make a long shot. I refer them to the story of good Mr. Dicken in a certain Indiana mall.
That first black talon on the steel was a definite one shot stop. All that ammo did quite well. I would definitely want a full size all steel revolver to shoot that 357 stuff though! Even the 180gr HTP from Remington has some smack on the hand.
I like the 75 yard tests. They are not unrealistic at all. If some guy with a rifle starts shooting up your local Walmart and you are there with your kids, 75 yards might be what you have to do if you can't exit the building.
I recall the initial test with the .357 Talons and I did use a 2" barrel. Very jumpy recoil.
@@GunSam Anything like catching a baseball bat swung by a heavy hitter?
Black Talon rounds are what the City of Miami Police Dept. Officers carried in their issued Glock 22s' (.40S&W) during the 90s' . They were reportedly extremely effective , "lethal" , to quote a friend of mine on the Force . And by the looks of the .357mag results on the video , the Black Talon seems to perform regardless of caliber . Great video as usual Gun Sam !
9mm & 38 special are the only calibers I've seen them struggle in.. sometimes 45 but the 40 357 mag & 10mm if they load it are all awesome in Ranger T series and the 45 ACP too but it's not always consistent in 45 kinda like 9mm & 38 but 40 & 357 seem to hit the sweet spot with Ranger T's which basically are black talons
Thanks. I still have some of my duty ammo from 1980. R&P 158 grain JHP .38+P. Shot some a year ago, and it still works.
Takes me back. I think I still have some 85 grain Silvertip .380 that I carried in my PPK more like 40 years ago. And yes, they look like aluminum jackets. Not surprised that newer ammo tends toward more timid loadings.
I've got some too in 380. The aluminum jacket is much less shiny then the modern nickel alloy ones. I keep them for nostalgic purposes.
The classic Silvertip ammo used aluminum jackets in non-magnum loadings, such as.38 & .44 Special, .32, .380, & .45 ACP.
.357 & .44 Mag use a cupro nickel alloy jacket.
A late friend of mine pulled some.44 Spl Silvertip bullets and loaded them into.444 Marlin.
Due the thin aluminum jacket on the .44 Spl bullets, it leased the bore of the .444 BADLY.
He ran a very few rounds through it and pulled the rest.
I grew up on .444 Marlin. My brother had one, went to college in 1990 and if was all me then lol. I remember my dad being like "the price is insane, I means 75 cents a round!". Now days a $15 box of .444 Marlin don't sound so bad.
My two self-defense loads back to the 1990s.. in my snubs were Winchester silvertips and federal Nyclads.. later on Hydra shocks
I’ve got maybe 200 rounds of that .357 Magnum Silvertip from that vintage. A very elegant round - more so that the tin foil jacketed stuff. I saw a couple of boxes of new manufacture .357 ST at a shop here while back. It was $50 for a box of 50. I didn’t buy it cause I the only .357s I have are a couple of Combat Magnums and don’t wish to abuse them anymore than I have to. In the mid 2000s, Winchester supposedly loaded the 357 version to be a bit more pleasant for the recoil sensitive. .357 Silvertip was an option for Border Patrol Agents who were willing to buy their own. I like that old .357 load. I thought it performed great. It’s good to know that it has sufficient penetration and expansion to take down a werewolf with one, two rounds at the most.
These are the rounds that I carried back in the day, in my Ruger GP100 and my Glock 20.
@8:45 It looks like the modern Silvertip is segmented on the lead to create even peeling back of the lead strips. The older Silvertip looks like it peels back in one large mass.
You are my absolute favorite gun tuber you are no bullshit straight to the point set in reality kind of guy
Thanks!
In cold storage ww2 ammo still works in my experience .
Way back at the end of the 70's beginning of the 80's my dept switched from super vel 125 gr 38 spl to silvertip 38's, 125 gr IIRC. We stopped using the silvertips within a year or 2 because of lack of expansion.
Hi -sam, seen from here, all three rounds made a good job, also, all three knocked on the steel pretty hard at 75 yards.
I have 30 rounds of Silvertip +P .38 spl HPs I bought on Feb. 24, 1994. I fired the other 20 testing out my (then new) Detective Special. I have no doubt they will fire.
👍😊 ammunition has improved but the old stuff is still good. There’s a lot of marketing for more money.
Good testing , I feel better that the black Talon 44mag I got back in the day should still get it done.
Thanks you!
If I had known that Black Talons would be worth so much money today, I wouldn’t have shot any of mine in the early ‘90s.
Probably not really worth it, but they did sucker me into a box for coolness factor.
Another gr8 idea for another gr8 show!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for the info GunSame!!
10mm and 357mag good chance it's going to be a great video!!!
Great video, Sam! I learned several different things. Love the channel!
Interesting seeing older ammo tested
Good test, Sam! While I've always liked the Silvertip, I have never been confident in the Black Talon rounds because they were always heavy for caliber and prone to not working correctly, as they did in the 357 heavy clothing test. Penetration was good but the bullet simply did not open correctly, which was the same experience I had with the 9mm BT's. The Silvertips, especially the older, faster ones, always opened up and penetrated fairly well. And I never experienced any jacket/core seperation, the bane (for me) of the XTP's. I will be sticking with my Lehigh Xtreme Defender ammo but the 10mm Silvertips might make a good back up! Especially since Speer has failed to make any 10mm 165gr Gold Dots for us reloaders! I do love those bonded bullets!
Cheers,
jc
There are times I think ballistic gel has hurt as much as it helps in bullet design. From the 2 boxes of 31 year old ammo I think it can be seen. The new ammo was designed to go a certain depth with x amount if expansion. Instead of keeping bigger caliber and more powerful round the hit harder peneteared deeper than the smaller calibers and less powerful. Now they neuter the bigger more powerful ammo to hit the desired by them a certain amount of penetration and expansion. Then they power up the lesser ammo and want us to all believe they all do the same thing.
Sorry for the rant. I do appreciate your work and your video. They seem to really help the shooters that are new and have only Hollywood for reference. Thanks again Sam
A few times when you were comparing multiple calibers and/or barrel lengths you put all of your ballistic summaries on the page at once. That sure was appreciated.
Great video, 2 of my favorite pistol calibers. Very interesting results. My Preconceived notions were not correct. Thanks for the test
Cool vid! Good guys have made 42, 50+, 75, 104 yards completely justified shots real world w pistols and revos in dgu.
Thanks. I like to have the skill and not need it VS the opposite.
Thanks, a good and interesting video. As always nice distance shooting. Take care.
Good tests & results. Thanks
Excellent video. Thanks. I have a few boxes of those 1992 rounds left over from my serving days in LA during the riots so it was very interesting to see how it performed.
I have some Black Talons. My local PD thought that they were frangible. They are better than the Ranger T. The T's have less in expansion.
Awesome video sir!
👊🏼💯👍🏼
That 357 hits hard. I really do like wheel guns.
Thanks for the comparison video. Any of the three look like they would be a good choice for carry. Interesting that the "old" ten Silvertip had more energy than the new version.
Thanks for watching!
Unfortunately, what you described is true for the vast majority of 10mm loadings nowadays.. most 10mm ammo, even in modern defensive loadings, are loaded no hotter than 180 grain .40 S&W… (see Paul Harrell’s .40 vs 10mm video for a longer explanation on that)
If you need true 10mm power in a 10mm, go with any Underwood 10mm, any Buffalo Bore, or go with Federal Premium’s “Trophy Bonded” or their Hard Cast 10mm. Have a good one sir!
@@richardw.johnson2875 yes ma'am, this is true. But some of the mainstream companies are stepping up; Winchester has a 180 grain load putting out roughly 600-650 foot pounds of energy. Fiocchi also has a decent 180 grain load with similar ballistics. But one does wonder: why water down most of the offerings in the first place!
Nice! Couple of good rounds that would darn well get the job done right there…
Thanks Sam, good video.
Old, using the definition of 30 years,as old usually still fires with no noticeable reductions in power as long as it's not been kept in damp places.However rimfire and shotgun shells are very unreliable after a long time.Someone gave me a box of 9mm Flobert shotgun shells from the 1970's and only about 20 percent still fired although I can't complain as the ammo was free and I love quirky sizes like 9mm Flobert.Paper shotgun shells are rare now but I had some in both 12 and 20 gauge from the 80's and maybe only half of them worked.I think with normal shotguns it's due to the size and it's easier for damp to get in so even plastic shells wouldn't fare much better.Handgun and rifle rounds are small and well sealed.With rimfires I suspect that they rim primer deteriorates over time falling free of the rim meaning that they won't go off?
the wsthp 10mm was a good 10mm round way back when. it has since been watered down for profit and not much better than standard .40s&w but still costs more. go figure.
I usually do defenseive 10-18 yd and 40-50 yd. because situation might require it and your prepared for it. if necessary.papa enjoyed the video.
Cool comparison!
Thank you
Great video. I have lots of old ammo. Good stuff too.
Great video choice.
Good test.
Another timely vid drop, both cartridges and the difference in new and old, I’ve found that most handgun ammo is less powerful than the old, maybe part in the less for more mentality of the manufacturers and a bit of litigation avoidance, whatever it is, it’s still a fact that most of my older ammo of the usual shelf stuff, excluding Buff bore, underwood, cot-bon types, Chronographs hotter that the Covid era ammo.
That 357 was awesome
I shot a box of Federal Nyclad 38sp I was issued in the early 90s a month ago. It appeared to be just fine.
I love shooting old ammo
FYI , i got a box of 100 rounds Winchester Target & Practice 9mm 115 gr. FMJ, 4 of the first 10 didnt fire. Gun had good primer strikes , plus I double checked ammo in another weapon.
Within the past couple years I have seen wonky things I never saw before that. Like main brand companies resorting to outsourcing things like primers, so they probably weren't even Winchester primers. Weirdest thing I bought around that time were Federal JHP loads that were loaded with Hornady XTP bullets.
You do a good job bro. 🇺🇸 👍
I have some older and newer Silvertips in .44 special. They changed the hollow point in the new ones with deeper serrations. I read a posting on a forum from someone who stated he tested both of the rounds in gel and he found the newer ones expanded better than the older ones through 4 layers of denim. This is all the information I could find, as no one has a video testing these loads.
That's awesome. I have been looking for Silvertip and V-Crown .44 Special since 2020 when I got my model 69. No luck ever since even looking on ammoseek all the time.
@@GunSam I found these on Gunbroker. I don't think they manufacture these in .44 anymore.
Either of those tens, Classic or New, would be good self defense rounds.
In the mid 90's I carried a Ruger GP100 in 357 Mag. I carried a mix load in it of Black Talons and Silver Tips. In fact I still have a couple boxes of Silver Tips in both .357 Mag and .38 Special from back then. Recently I just fired a dozen rounds of the .357 Mag to see how my Coonan would handle it and it all fired without an issue. Same for the .38 Special through my Henry Big Box X Lever in .38 / .357 . While I was happy the ammo was still good the sticker shock of the cost to replace it made me think twice about replacing it. I know carry a SIG P226 in 357 Sig and while it is scare I can still find it in both Range and Personal Defense loads at about the same price.
I miss the old Super X .38+P 125 gr Silvertips. They were pretty ideal in some of the older water jug testing I did. By the time I got into gel testing the Super X Silvertips were no more and I had to test those standard pressure 110 gr ones.
@@GunSam yeah I miss a lot of the older loads like the 147 grain Hydra Shocks for .357 and 9MM. My favorite modern round is .357 Sig and I wish it was offered in the same variety as modern or even older 9MM.
@@GunSam correction. I meant the 147 Grain Golden Saber round in .357 Mag and 9MM. While I have some 147 Grain Hydra Shocks in 357 I do not recall seeing them in 9MM.
It's like a time capsule but interesting!
There is a old saying that sxt stands for same exact thing referencing the black talon being they are the same round
Got the black talons loaded in the clip_ Biggie Smalls
Thanks, I have some old ammo some hand loads and commercial
Nice to see the comparison. The evolution of ammo. I remember silver tips used to be the standard until 1986 then everything changed. hST, Gold Dots, and Golden Sabers became the go to standard. Black Talon came along and changed everything in the industry. 🎩♠️🇺🇲🎱🏁🇺🇦🌻🌼💮🌸🏵️🏴☠️🏹
🇺🇦💩🇺🇦💩🇺🇦💩🇺🇦💩🇺🇦💩
@@N238E troll
@@ratagris21 I guess the kids in eastern Ukraine never mattered huh? Gray Rat... what a fitting name.
@@N238E go ask Putin. It seems like they don't since he wants genocide which you seem to support.
@@ratagris21 it seems like YOU support it, since he actually stopped a genocide by stepping in when he did. seems to me you get your information from CNN. don't forget to take your booster. might want to stay away from cardio though.
The white, orange, red Winchester Rider boxes were made from 1983 to 1996. It was followed by the gray box pictured which was made from 1997 to 2011. If you could give the ammo code the day, month and year of manufacture can be deciphered. It is a convoluted code to say the least!
I received a old box of Remington.38 Special from a guy . They are not all of the same vintage. The box looks like late 1960's. I don't have a good test in mind I think I will shoot them for accuracy. Reload the brass, keep the old paper box. Also have one original box of .22 WMR fmj from 1982.
I prefer the modern silvertip in 10mm and for woods protection. Black bears and big hogs are my concerns.
.357 Mag, baby! 💥 BOOM!! 😃
Sam: Please do 9mm 147gr +P+ underwood vs .40 165gr underwood.
I’ve seen on a lot of videos from many channels how the round sometimes suck back in the gel. Could that happen in a defense situation or is that just in gel?
amazing how "modern bullet technology" that supposedly made the 9mm so much more potent is actually NOT modern. the SXT and Golden Saber have been around, petal JHPs, for decades. 9mm got more potent because +P rounds started being able to achieve +P+ velocities while staying inside SAAMI, as CorBon learnt to do way back then. Std pressure 9mm in any JHP is still a low energy round that is not particularly effective. We see this in the police involved shootings that involve high round counts almost as a rule where 9x19 is concerned. the high energy rounds for 9mm were effective then, and effective now. They perform like other calibers that produce comparable energy.
What make of 10mm barrel did you put in your Glock 41? Those 180 grain Silver Tips are hotter than my 180 grain solid lead flat tip HSM Bear Loads. I could only manage 1000 FPS out of a 4" barrel, but I suspect they will penetrate deeper because they do not mushroom.
You want to go with a 10mm, go with XDm Elite from Springfield. Eats everything, from what I've seen.
You interested in testing some Glaser Safety slugs I've had sitting around?
It might be time for you to drop $199.95 and get a real 10mm. The new Hi-point. For lugging down to range and ammo testing it would be perfect!
lol. For me personally I will probably never do that. However, I have had the S&W 610 revolver on the radar for some time, yes it's $1,120 but so worth it. It's an N frame and it can shoot .40 that everyone is giving away, would give some fun cheap range time (cheap after the gun purchase) as .40 is cheap but it heavy and will swing the steel.
As crappy as Hi-Points are, the 10 mm is definitely more reliable than the cobbled-together Tupperware gun. SMH
How dare you ever practice at 75 yards with a carry handgun? I’ve never shot game with my 2.25” sp101 ccw past 50 yards so what crazy coot would possibly need to shoot further than that.
Ps, with how often you need to restate this point I felt the need to poke fun at it. Great video as always. Can you/have you tested a 180+ grain swc from a snub standard pressure 38spl for a ccw?
Or a 38s&w test?
I like to shoot at distance when practice bc if I can hit at 50-75yards I’ll be good at 5 yards.
I have 21 rounds of 20-10 year old 38 +P sivertips in my S&W model 520 and this round makes a mess in water jugs or wet magazines.
The Glock recoil spring probably is too light.
I found that I had to replace mine with a Wolff spring, 22 pounds I think, for it to run with full power loads.
But mine was a Glock 20, unfortunately yours has a dual recoil spring so might be more expensive to remedy your situation.
Actually not, Wolff dual spring and guide rod is only $35
i'm not looking for a remedy. I don't test a lot of 10mm, just randomly and the malfunctions don't effect the terminal ballistics so I could care less. People seem to get upset about it though, when i'm not reviewing any guns, just terminal ballistics.
Sam great..great video now the 180gn .357 round is designed more of a 75 yard pig and deer round from hand gun or lever action carbine, 10mm performed as designed and these too will also make good close range pig and deer rounds with a long barreled pistol or semiauto carbine but i would prefer to use a 200gn jacketed or hard cast in either buffalo boar, under wood and Cor-bon for hunting and the silver tips for personal defense.
Thanks Angelo
@@GunSam 👍
Oh my? I'm still older than this ammo 🤣🤣🤣
My older Sampson .38 Special 1983 production is getting close to being as old as I am
I've seen black talons up to 500 magnum. i think they just changed the name. both gonna have some recoil.
@Peter Angles it might of been silvertip
lol. Doing a quick search, my best guess is you had some Winchester Super X 350 gr Reduced Recoil ammo, based on the boxes as the Super X box and the original Super X Silvertip box were near identical.
@@kc0lif or Dual Bond or platinum tip. Both have black boxes, Say Winchester on the box and have silver looking bullets.
It is my opinion that all old ammo is hotter. My reason is that the powder breaks into smaller particles from being shaken and moved. This causes the burn rate to be quicker. Just one canadian guys opinion and yes im sorry.
And I get that right you were shooting 10mm,at of a 45ca,Glock.
had some 17 year old winchester white box i took out to shoot. had about a 35% failure rate. my brown bear was 100% reliable though. Wouldnt buy winchester anymore. I have had a long history of failures with that brand in multiple guns. I'll stick to Remington, Federal, Hornaday, and PMC personally.
What do you mean when you say "failure". Fail to feed? Fail to fire? Fail to eject? If you experience more than one out of a million failures to fire with centerfire rifle or handgun ammunition there is a problem with your firearm not the ammunition. A cartridge that is loaded with too much powder blows up the firearm. Too little powder lodges the bullet in the barrel and the next shot blows up the firearm. This kind of thing happens but it's so rare that probably less than one in a million shooters will experience it. Primers will sometimes be loaded upside down and cause the cartridge to fail to fire. Very few people will ever experience this problem. A primer cup could fail to be loaded with priming compound but this also doesn't happen one in a million times. Primers can fail to be seated all the way which will make the cartridge fail to fire but this also doesn't happen one in a million times. Some primers are harder than other primers and might require a harder strike than another manufacturer's primers and some makes of firearms may lack the hammer or striker energy to reliably set them off. Those are issues with the firearms and not the ammunition. Ammunition is designed to fire every time and it will fire 99.99999% of the time. If you have one cartridge fail to fire in a box of factory loaded ammunition you should play the lottery. If you have two fail to fire the problem is your firearm. If you are submerging your ammunition in Wd40 you might have issues.
@@brianwilson4861 the ruger p95 is a very reliable firearm and mine has stayed in prestine condition and is only taken out for range trips once in a while. I shot the other ammos mentioned before,m and after with no problems. Winchester whitebox is just poop ammo. I had it fail in other firearms in the past like my beretta .25 Tomcat and my Marlin 795. The box I am talking about had 2 failures to fire, even with second, third, and fourth strikes to the primer. It also failed to feed new rounds as it wasn't pushing the slide back far enough. Crap ammo, would never buy again. Pmc, Remington, Federal, Fiocchi, Hornaday, and Sellior and Bellot have never been an issue once for me. Magtechs are not very good ammo either but mostly because they are so dirty.
10 bucks a round for old stale ammo with 40 energy..hmm , I would think maybe the old black talon would be collectable but not those Silvertips, but old ammo is not my specialty.
$10 a round, and I thought my .45lc was pricey at $1.12 a round.
A 10mm!!!!! Finallyyyyy lol
10 bucks around!?!?
Rounds look good plenty of power.$10 dollars a round that's criminal,not that powerfully.
Insert comment here.
*burglars enter GunSam property* Hmm we’re about 76 yards from the property , I think this will be a good area to stop and review the plan one more time.. GunSam walks 3 feet forward w 10mm n revolver duo
Your Glock jamming is naught to do with it being too light I'm sure of it the Glock 29 an the 20 or all in the same weight category and they don't jam they're literally the same gun barrel and recoil spring difference if you haven't played with your spring that's probably going to be it your extractor spring could be a little to strong bought a new Shadow systems recently and it was jamming because the extractor spring was way too strong they told me a 200 round break-in. But it had more rounds in it than that and it was still doing it also just received a new Glock 19 x has a bent striker when you would dry fire it it jams with the striker sticking out the front finally found out striker was bent or warped probably during heat treat because the striker was bent when it got dry fire Stryker got in such mine when you wrap the pistol the striker would stay protruded out the end of the firing pin hole causing the rim of the case to hit the firing pin I would check your Glock out they're really fine guns there's something they're messing with it check your conversion barrel if it don't do it with standard barrel
have tried multiple springs. I have done everything that could be done in that regard. The 41 is not the same gun, the slide, extractor etc are all different size, it's a 9mm slide on a .45 frame basically. When it is in it's .45 factory setup it runs fine as long as the ammo is generally within standard pressure or low end +P.
The new Winchester pdx1 or Ranger SUCKS through clothing. Clogs EVERY TIME!! Unless the intruder is naked that ammo is useless
I don't get the whole thing with people on TH-cam who seem to just look for something to complain about. Nothing new there, judgmental idiots have been a staple of TH-cam since the beginning.
Darn g000tube didn't give me no notice