10mm VS .357 Magnum Winchester Silvertip Gel Test
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 เม.ย. 2021
- Testing out the current production line of Winchester Silvertip in 10mm Auto and .357 Magnum. Running through the chronograph and also doing a ballistics gel test. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.com/user?u=5828221
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Don't worry, I tested this .357 Mag ammo in my 2" snub VS the 115 gr 9mm Silvertip in the G2C. I know I will get a lot of "Can you test this in a snub nose? PLEASE?!", so I decided to test it before I was asked.
i do carry a g2c but switched to the g3 for reasons capacity and trigger all work well great video never bought silvertips just use hst punch or hornady stuff
@@joemorganeatmyshortschannel Thanks. I do find the G2C's trigger to be weird. The way I pull triggers is to use a bit of finger joint, which with Taurus's design is causing the trigger blade to not depress fully, and click through like it's trigger bar is catching.
Seeing to the needs and concerns of the viewers before we ask. You sir are champion content provider. 😉
@@scubaguy007 Eh, easier than that lol. It's just a consistent annoying comment asked over and over again with literally ALL .357 Mag I test in a 4" barrel "can you test it in a snub nose please?!". Not sure I have ever tested a .357 in my 4" barrel where someone did not ask for a snub test.
Revolvers are COMPLETELY obsolete, they have been ever since 1911, if 15 to 17 rounds (Glock mag extension) of hot loaded 10mm or 460 Rowland won't do the job then you need either a submachine gun, carbine or shotgun. I don't care what you say, the revolver is dead, yes even for hunting. It's literally an antique for crying out loud! A good semiauto with a compensator or threaded barrel can be pressed against a target and shot just like the revolver, and semiautos simply have fewer moving parts than and can handle MUCH more abuse and lack of maintanance than the revolver can.
LOL, at first I didn't notice the screen on screen, it appeared like you were shooting steel at like 10 feet! haha The background blended right in. Thanks for the vid
In this one I didn't do this, but usually I let the secondary camera not pop up until a few seconds before I pull the trigger. Reason being, I had a couple people yell about how stupid I was for shooting from 10 feet. I'm like, what are you blind lol.
No kidding. I could hardly tell myself.
This is about what I expected. I've noticed newer Silvertip ammo is definitely loaded lighter than original stuff but they also changed the HP design a bit to be more reliable as the older Silvertips were known to be inconsistent with expansion. While light for a .357 Magnum load, consider that in a 2 inch snub nose you're still seeing over 1,100 fps typically which compared to even .38 Special +P makes a big difference. I believe they wanted a load designed to operate in typical self defense carry guns which in .357 are either snub noses or 4 inch barrels. Which, it's still plenty powerful to put somebody down, but not what it's capable of at all. That's the curse of compromise, got to give something up to be versatile.
The variation of velocity and expansion in caliber is I think the real story.
Nice set up you have for testing! Glad to see the 10mm ST still hasn't been watered down. I did my own little test back in early nineties with the 10mm ST and was REALLY impressed with it back then. My main CCW was my lovely Delta Elite for over 9yrs after that. I'm still a huge fan of the round.
Thanks for testing this! I wrote and asked about it a bit ago, and I really appreciate you doing this and other tests.
Your videos get better every time. Thanks!
Thanks. I keep trying to find ways to improve them or my setup. Got some tweaks coming to hold denim, targets better, got some vintage S&W signs to hang etc. Fun times.
As always, an interesting comparison. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks!
Wasn't gonna ask but glad you tested it in a snubby. My 357 revolver actually has a 3" barrel so I'm kinda always in the middle of 2" snubby and a 4" barrel but it's not to hard to figure out. It still gives me a pretty good idea how ammo will work in my gun. Thanks for your testing on ammo as it really helps us on what ammo to try and what to stay away from.👍👍
I had some, really weird things happen in the snub with this ammo. REALLY weird.
Also - I don’t see why anyone would be overly disappointed with ballistics gel.
Particularly when you have such a large volume of videos to compare... jugs... gel... both tell a good story when you’re consistent. Particularly with chrono readings.
Still one of the most well documented resources in terms of velocity/vs barrel length/chrono readings/vs practical penetration - compared to factory ammo from handguns as a resource to reloading revolvers that I’ve found on TH-cam. Keep up the good work bud
Love these videos
Hey man I think your channel is amazing and very entertaining and informative so I went and left links to your channel on some bigger gun you tubers and other channels to try and help you out
Hope this helps👍
Thanks!
Great review. Please keep the Jug or Not. I love that.
Great video. I like you bullet weight selection per caliber, similar sectional densities.
Not gonna lie. Was super excited to see your 10mm running smoothly on the first go. Dang last round 😂
Seems like the quality in revolver ammunition is not getting the right attention by most manufacturers. That .357 magnum was WAY UNDER CHARGED, but that 10mm had a good powder charge. It is almost to the point where you have to test ammo just to see who takes which caliber more seriously.
Yeah IDK about you but when I see .357 magnum on the box I expect .357 magnum performance.I guess if I had a lightweight snubnose .357 I could could see the point of a lighter loaded .357 but I would hope the box was labeled short barrel or reduced recoil.
@@rob.3575 I agree. That .357 magnum ammunition is mislabeled. My S&W M329PD .44 magnum revolver has insane recoil, but I would never want to reduce the power output of it. If I want to shoot light, I'll use my .357/38 Taurus 605 instead
👍 Thanks GSRA
Just checking in, 🙂
Good load in 10mm, very weak ammo in 357 mag...
One of the first pistols I ever owned was a Llama 1911. It was a nightmare of a gun for being unreliable but the one ammo I remember it never failing on was the Winchester 185gr silver tips. It would jam up on 230gr ball constantly but it never seemed to fail on those silver tips. I traded the Llama for a Classic Charter Arms Bulldog in 44spl. I still have that revolver, it’s a fun gun to shoot, but it’s not a carry choice for me. I also have a newer stainless steel version of the Bulldog called the On-duty model. It has a shrouded hammer and it is a carry choice. But it’s not my first choice, but for $300 it’s handled so pretty potent 44spl ammo.
I have a friend who had a Llama .38 Special, he gave it to his dad lol. Shows how much he cares. He used to talk bad about his parents as a kid too. What a great son right.
These are such great videos, these comparisons.
I don't know if Winchester has changed the powder or anything since 1991, but if you'll allow a tale: Back when I was in the Police Academy locally, we were doing a night-fire qualification. One of our cadets had a Colt Delta Elite 10mm and he brought a case of Silvertips. When he'd fire it would light up the whole range so well we'd all get excellent sight pictures if we timed our shots just right. It wasn't long before he had to shoot all alone because he was giving us too much "advantage." LOL. Also, part of the course calls for a "draw and double-tap" and they wanted "two shots should sound like one!" Well, while the rest of us with .38s, .45s, and 9mms could manage bu-bang!, the BEST he could do was Boom ... Boom!
My impression that day was ... I GOTTA get me one of those! :)
Thanks. Sort of makes me picture Robocop in the shooting range scene with the other cops running to see what he's shooting.
@@GunSam - ROTF and that image is about right. Dude was a spoiled rich kid who was a part-time deputy because he couldn't afford the pay cut to be a real cop. ;) He brought a lot of cool and expensive toys to the academy. He didn't last long, real world, but man ... that Delta Elite was SWEET as was the caliber.
Another great video. The picture in a picture views work for me. I like the chrono view and the caliper view etc. Question; Chrono distance from muzzle when testing 38 Special handholds? (Like when working up data) Thanks
I'd stand as close as possible without error reads. I can't tell you what each and every chronograph is like, but I stand 4 yards for a reason. Any closer and smoke skews the read, any further and I might pull the rounds too far off windage to get a read.
Most of you newer .357 magnum self defense loads from major manufacturers fall around the 1250fps velocity. It's because most of them are loaded for short barreled revolvers, and revolvers that are not all steel. I mean if they loaded them for 1500fps out of a snub nose you'd get a gigantic fireball, and out of a airweight they would recoil horribly and probably stretch the frame pretty quick. So the end result is a modern .357 magnum that's basically a 9mm +p+.
Why I generally refer to them as glorified .38 special's be it a snub nose or some premium major brand jhp's in a fancy box. Also for some reason people think ammo loaded for short barrels will generate much much higher velocities in longer barrels. I don't know where that myth started but it's kind of comical when you understand how a cartridge works.
Yep. And based on what I’ve observed so far, it seems like you have to buy ammo from “higher-end” brands Buffalo Bore or Underwood in order to get true 38 special or .357 magnum velocities nowadays. Kinda sad how revolver rounds are being neglected by major manufacturers.
@@FirstNameLastName-dq5lv Some companies do this with 10mm as well,load them closer to .40S&W than what 10mm is capable of. Kind of defeats the purpose of having a 10mm.
I have found that there's always an increase in velocity with a short barrel load in a longer barrel in .357 Magnum, even if it's a fast burning powder. Like, this .357 Mag ammo gave me 1,095 FPS in the 2" and 1,201 FPS in the 4". With the Gold Dot SB 135 gr I got 1,137 FPS in the 2" and 1,212 FPS in the 4". The one time I have seen literally no increase and even a decrease going from 2" to 4" is with really really weak fast burners like .38+P HST. More velocity in the snub than the 4" because the bullet is long and has a lot of friction and not much powder.
Yeah, and the the only other option besides paying for premium ammo like Buffalo Bore, CorBon, Underwood or Double Tap in order to get true 357 Mag performance from a 357 Mag is to handload your own ammo. 14.5 grains of Blue Dot or 19.5 grain of W296 behind a 140 grain Sierra Sport Master JHP or Hornady XTP - HP bullet out of a 6 inch barrel GP-100 revolver at 1,500 f.p.s.
I love the jug or not box
My experience with the silver tips is the older, the better. I have an old (25-30 years) box left (last one) that I use as carry/home defense that are noticeably more accurate and snappy than the 2 newer boxes I've tried. Since it's my last box, I don't use them at the range anymore, they stay at home or loaded for carry.
This is the accuracy test I would like to see on 10mm ( any gun ) >> just like today , you could use the same clip VS any kind of rest , prone , sitting over your knees , a chair with some kind of rest , wrists / and or Frame only on a soft rest , barrel should always be free of contact ( rifle - Revolver ) . I think a rest of any kind should will cut your groups in 1/2 or better . I think it's good to practice that type of shooting , I wouldn't call it ammo accuracy testing . I think even av poor ammo will out shoot most humans free hand @ 25 yrd . That would be testing your test .
Jerry Mc I'm not talking about you ! Cyborg !
My experience with Win Silvertip in 357 was the same. Had a Ruger that liked em and a Ruger that didn’t. They are loaded a bit weak, because any faster and they’ll come apart.
I noticed that all the way back 3 years ago when testing them when they were still labeled Super X Silvertip, in .380 ACP. Was astonished that in my little LCP the bullets would pancake the way a 10mm would. So I know there, either the core was soft, the jacket was thin, or both.
Are you seeing any bullet seating issues with the Silvertips? I bought a case of Silvertip 38's a couple of years ago and about 30% of the bullets were not seated properly. The overall length was all over the place.
I haven't noticed that, but I have with other Winchester ammo like PDX1.
Ever tried to polish the feed ramp and hone the chamber of that 10mm. Maybe a little mag lip work would help?
No, because it don't matter enough to me. Like, if I were to do something more than these videos with 10mm, I would go all out and have an actual 10mm pistol, but for these videos it's not worth my time to do anything really. Bullets still read velocity and damage stuff, a few jams is fine. I think that's fine as long as I always make mention of it, rather than get jams and be like "huh?". I'm a pretty big guy so a lot of people think i'm using a G20 lol, but this G41 has over a half inch more barrel.
Ok, so as soon as you factor in a shooter into an accuracy test, you may as well thrown that test out the window. You should clamp the gun down in a vice to see how accurate a round is. And even then your testing more the gun than the ammo. A Smith & Wesson Performance Center 357 is usually going to get better groups than say a Rossi.
Do you ever plan on getting a actual 10mm pistol instead of using the conversion?
Great video
No. I thought I had explained that.
He did say that in the vid, an why when you have a conversion kit, I had the same sort of problems with my g20 going to a .40 S&W, but got the feed ramp polished an that cured it
Did you even watch the video or videos?has explained it the last few video's or did you think he was just making conversation
@@biggunshandguns3687 😊😊
In the past I shot quite a bit of silvertips and never thought they were anything more than just OK rounds. Nothing really worth pursuing. This just backs it up. Thanks.
Hey Sam its G-Dubb13b, those silver tips seem to be lacking power like you said, I have some prototype 38spl id like to talk to you about ..thanks for the video! 👍🏻👍🏻
As old as the Silvertip line is it’s kinda surprising Winchester still makes these, although they are less expensive than a lot of HPs on the market these days. Used to shoot em regularly back in the late 80s and early 90s when there were few reliable HPs on the market. Back then STs could be relied on to expand even in slow calibers when others often would not.
These definitely seem downloaded vs the old .357 loads. OTOH, the old ones had a reputation for expanding too quickly and would often fragment in .357 so maybe why the current loads are less hot and, I believe, slightly heavier than the old (125g?) version.
The 10mm seems decent but that has to be the most pathetically weak,least penetrating .357 I've ever seen.I'm pretty sure I've seen you test .38spl+p Buffalo Bore rounds with similar muzzle energy.
I have actually tested weaker .357 Mag rounds. But yeah, a real .357 Mag load should be at least 580 ft lbs, and warm ones around 700-800.
In the day (1980's) Silvertips were marketed as the controlable, rapid expansion and controlled expansion option. I believe I have a partial box true aluminum clad 38's
I have a model 60 Smith and it's not terribly fond of the Silvertip .357 round either. Oddly enough, it just loves the .38 special 110 gr. Silvertip loading. It'll put them all in the same hole at seven yards. It's what I carry in it most days.
Same here. I tested the .38 version in my Taurus 605, all touched the bullseye. In the same gun the .357 Mag hurt me, like 20 tiny holes in my thumb from debris, powder, etc. Also 2 inches high right from 5 yards.
What's the barrel length on the Glock? I think the better load for the 357 is 125 grain JHP...
Gave you a thumbs up however bit of criticism… low velocity out of .357 probably because of the short4” barrel 4.5 in will properly fix that
RE: the 357 is a slug ?? It's common thought >> A 357 44 mag MUST be fully loaded , Most if not all the time . I think a +P Special or a down loaded Mag is the sweet spot for a small carry gun . If you can handle it well . That 357 wouldn't be my first choice , better than a sharp stick .
@Gun Sam.... where did you find the .357 Silvertips for sale?
I honestly don't know. Bought them awhile ago.
@@GunSam thanks - thought maybe you'd found them recently.
Does 10mm rival .357 Magnum?
I will always say compare a 10mm to the same 40 cal in that class all you have is 40mm or minutely larger .410 diameter 41 mag so what the 10mm is a .400 diameter then again the 44 mag or 500 mag. So you got a 50ae thats the best you can do in a semi auto. So with a comparison like this why not 500 mag to 44 mag or too be fair a 50ae to a 10mm. lets see if SW will hotrod a 45acp like they did the 500 mag. Personally if you want high power the 50 cal is the way to go. But for a 10mm compare it to a 41mag and be fair. What a semi auto offers is high capacity so you have more chances to miss a target
that .357 was really underperforming for a .357.
Seems to me that the feed ramp either could be polished or cut to a lesser angle by a Smith, jus my .02. I had always thought that silvertips were GTG for SD, guess not. Thx for the vid
Could be. But then again, it doesn't bother me as I do not carry or use 10mm for defense.
The expansion was excellent on both rounds but penetration and velocity was underwhelming. This round might be a good one if your main concern was overpenetration, such as in an apartment or house....
Regardless of how you slice it, there’s absolutely no comparison between the power of the 357 magnum and the lagging 10 mm. No one on earth can explain how I won 140 grain round of Corbin ammunition rated at 900 foot pounds of energy is surpassed by 10 mm round that only generates 700 foot pounds of energy… The Buffalo Bore 140 grain 357 magnum most definitely exhibits SUPERIOR BALLISTICS compared to the 10mm. (899 foot pounds vs 700 foot pounds for the 10mm). In fact, the Buffalo Bore .357 magnum boasts 120 MORE foot pounds (899) versus 788 foot pounds for the Remington 41 magnum HST. So is the.357 mag more powerful than the 10mm? Absolutely YES….hands down and without any doubt.
That 357 might be a good snub nose round depending on recoil ?
Tested it. Lots of recoil, lots of back blast. Shot 2 inches right at just 5 yards.
The jugornot box rules , rulz i tell ya
It's just fun to watch you get covered in bologna and water with the jugornot box LOL,,,357 10mm it's all irrelevent now that I've turned wimp and went away from my revolvers and started carrying a 9mm auto (I've boughy 3 more of them in just the past month so I'm up to five of them now),,,so do something worth the time and start testing a bunch of 9mm ammo and custom loadings so I don't have to would ya LOL, kidding of course (not about owning and carrying the 9's but you doing testing on them,,,,I've loaded up a few different loadings to test out and just waiting for the right day to take the chrono and test media out to the range),,,anyhow good video and info as always and a big thanks for posting good content videos and the work that goes into it.
Thanks. I plan to transition to a bologna/MDF and gel block hybrid test setup. I have already tested with and without the bologna pack and found that about 7" of gel is about what the bologna pack takes away, so I can always say a gel penetration depth. The only issue is that the MDF always causes more expansion than plain gel, so my test in this format will always yield less penetration than straight gel tests.
STHP Shoots all kinds of accurate, in my 10mm.
where did you find that SilverTip ammo ??
On the internet somewhere. I don't recall where
@@GunSam oh ok.
Whatever the results of penetration and expansion were that 10 mil energy dump was significantly more powerful then 357 they say stopping power isn’t a thing but I promise if a bad guy gets hit wth that 10 mil he’s doing a backflip
Probably wouldn’t have been much difference if both rounds would have been on rated velocity.
Did the 10mm go through the denim?
Of course
PROPOSAL: .45 ACP with Underwood 185 grain JHP (from the 45 acp vs 357 mag Underwood test) compared to the 10mm Auto Buffalo Bore 155 grain JHP (from the lower/reduced recoil XTP 10mm vs 44 mag test).
Those rounds both produced comparable damage to their bologna packs, fiber board, and first jug, stopping in the second jug, of the jug-or-not box. I think those two should be considered for comparison in the clear ballistics gel.
Have you tested a 357 sig ?
Not yet
@@GunSam I have 2 of them, a Glock 32c and a Sig 239 (which has never been shot) They both will shoot a 40 Cal also.
@@64samsky Only with a conversion barrel unless you want metal fragments in your hand and face potentially...
@@Predalien195 I have them
When there is ever some sort of misfeed/extract/eject, it is never from a wheelgun. Funny how that is. :)
Your 357 Mag velocity is well below the stated velocity. I think you should try a different brand ammo. If your velocity doesn't improve with the different brand, then there may be a problem with your gun. The energy should be in the 500 ft.pound range.
Silvertips are a 50/50 shot....either they work or they don't. There's other much more reliable functioning rounds on the market when available. I know these were the standard for a while before the evolution in defensive rounds of the late 80s and early 90s. Great video Sam. 🎩♠️☯️
Winchester platinum tip when absolutely need to put something down!!!!!!
Just an FYI.. the volume was a bit low.
It's at 300%, does not go higher.
@@GunSam just seemed very low.. maybe just me getting old
I can not find any .357 or.38 except on line one site wanted $140 for a100 rounds of .38 robbery
Man I hardly ever see 38 or 357 and when I do I just refuse to pay what they're asking. I haven't bought 38spl in about a year but did find some 357 at a reasonable price last summer. Kinda frustrating.
Go to the ammo seek website, then click "ammo" then "handgun" then "caliber", select .38 Special then "start seeking now", then after that go to the left lower hand side of the screen and go to "sort by" and select "total", then select "seek now". Do the same thing for .357 Magnum. You will find a lot of stuff for less money than $140 for 100 rounds. Still a lot, like $1 a round is the cheapest for .38, but it's better than $1.40 a round. If you seek .357 Mag there are several 50 round boxes for like $42 per 50.
@@GunSam Thanks
Thanks Sam by the way excellent video
My batch of Silver tips got 1175 fps from a G20
Highly accurate & works great . On sheet steel ( very heavy ) the H P must get crimped shut , it blows big holes , 1/2 the 125 gr 357 were stopped by 1 sheet , the jacket & some lead stay on the surface & a good part of the core ripped out & got through .The Silver tips blow big holes in double thick area . Holes looked more like a 44 than any other round .
Must be they got the rating from the G20!
@@GunSam I believe their test data is from the Delta Elite with a 5 inch barrel if I recall. Most 10mm data printed on boxes is usually out of a 5 inch. The G20's with the polygonal rifling gives it a bit of a velocity boost despite the overall shorter barrel so it tends to compensate. 1175 is about what I used to get out of Silvertips when I had them on hand. Had a batch of oldschool Silvertips from when the FBI used them that would push a little over 1,220 fps in the G20 at a time.
@@johnklatt3522 Not surprising. Most factory 10mm loads seem to be tested from 5 inch to 6 inch barrels. I doubt it would get 1290 though, but I can't say I'd be surprised by the older ammo. They have definitely downloaded it a tad over time.
The FBI's Silvertips were meh in the '86 Miami shootout, right? Still meh.
Am I the only one tired of .357 loads.. loaded at 9mm specs ?? Anyone ??
I'll say it for the people, "Jug or Not! "Blow it up!" "Jug or Not!" "Blow it up!" "Jug or Not!" "Blow it up!" Just kidding, of course. I was disappointed in the performance of the .357. I had expected better velocity, at least the suggested velocity, and greater penetration. You are slowly pulling me into the 10mm corner. Not as a 100% option for when things go bump in the middle of the night, but an option none the less. By the way, my go to is my .357 magnum.
I have decided with experimentation, that the bologna/MDF can go in front of the gel block no problem, and with experimentation in gel with no bologna VS bologna, that the bologna pack is maybe 7" of "gel", so lets say 9" in the gel after the bologna would be 16" in gel. This gives what most people want to see but without the water.
@@GunSam I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Mark my words...
When I become Earth Czar you are getting a set revolvers in Pistol & Revolver Calibers from every manufacturer... Let it be written. Let it be done.
Also the word 45 ACP Glock conversion to 10mm will be stricken from the language.
How many bologna packs will you make out of 1 politician?
@@patrickbolthouse7354 Found through experiment, that 7" of clear ballistics is about what one bologna/MDF pack is. The FBI protocol is 12" to 18" of 10% gel, so I would say we are set with 3 bologna packs and two MDF boards to make one of those things.
@@GunSam I think you under estimate. A test is in order. Ha Ha Ha. 👌👌👌👌👌
Hail to the Earth Czar!
Ave Imperium!
Good video, but how do you miss at 15'? lol, c,mon man!
I know what NOT to get for the 357
I like your videos. I will criticize your accuracy test. You have way too many variables involved. You are shooting off hand at a bouncing target. That’s a good way to develop shooting skills, not test the accuracy of a round.
Another watered down .357 round. It's sad to see these manufacturers making these .357 loads weaker , it's not just this one , it's a huge trend by others too
I don't normally trust Winchester ammo, even in 22LR.
10 mm powerfull. Like my 357 better
Very weak 357 load