❔ 9mm or .40 S&W for Personal Protection ❔ Speer Gold Dot Ballistic Test (Heavy for Caliber Bullets)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.พ. 2024
- Testing the Speer Gold Dot ammunition in a 147 gr 9mm and 180 gr .40 S&W through my 5" M&P 2.0 pistols. The 9mm is rated at 990 FPS through a 4" test barrel and the .40 S&W is rated at 1,025 FPS through a 4" test barrel. Ballistic test is 10% Clear Ballistics. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.com/user?u=5828221
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One thing I sometimes do not understand, is the strong opposition to facts about cartridges and calibers. While I think 'stopping power' is misunderstood - as people who love less powerful cartridges often yell that it's a myth, that no one falls over - when that was never claimed. 'Stopping power' is a poorly worded way to say cartridge effectiveness, which is indeed a thing. Statistical averages of real world data shows this. So I decided to look at both the Sanow and Marshall data as well as the Greg Ellifritz study and to relay some of their finding. With the Sanow and Marshall data, it's 30 year old data but I think it's still relevant despite Gold Dot or HST either not existing yet or simply not used by LE yet. But on average what is shown there in police shootings is that 9mm hollow points average about a 85% one shot stop, as where on average .40 S&W has about a 93% one shot stop. That might not sound like a big difference, but it is a pretty big difference in terms of real world incidences.
With the Greg Ellifritz study, it's a lot less ammo specific and more real world shootings happened with 9mm, and there's also a lot of hard to understand data points as it's not a 'one shot stop' specific study and we all know cops rarely fire once, but basically with 9mm the average number of rounds until incapacitation was 2.45, percentage not incapacitated was 13% and average one shot stop was 34%. With .40 S&W the average number of rounds until incapacitation was 2.36, percentage not incapacitated was 13% and average one shot stop was 45%. Again, both of those numbers are low and close, but in a real world incident where one shot worked before a second shot was fired (as nearly all shooting are multiple hits) with 9mm only 1/3 of the time did the officer stop firing as if clearly the threat was down, as where with .40 S&W, almost half the time the officer saw that one shot worked and didn't fire another shot. To me this is all clear evidence that the .40 S&W is a bit more effective.
I know some people will instantly say "yeah but some of that data is 30 years old.....modern bullet technology" as if that technology only went into 9mm and the .40 S&W never also got Gold Dot, HST, Critical Duty and the like. I also hear a lot of "yeah but capacity!". My thought on that, is if you are realistically saying that you need 17+1 to stop a threat, and that's better than 15+1 - that's either an admission that the caliber is not effective, or you plan to miss most of your shots - which is it? I also hear the 'multiple attacker' reasoning, but how is 17+1 significantly better than 15+1 when statistically you need more shots per attacker with 9mm, not to mention that this John Wick multiple attacker thing is largely a myth. Not that it's never happened, but it's extremely rare. I ask people for video evidence where a defender stops multiple attackers because of more capacity, and they never give it - if they do, it's a video where 4 guys walk into a jewelry store or convenience store and start trouble, and the defender starts shooting or shoots one of them and they all run off. That's not evidence because the same thing would happen if I opened fire with a 2 shot derringer.
Now I am not here to hate on the 9mm, because with some of the light for caliber +P and +P+ ammo, it is pretty damn good, i'm just saying that .40 S&W is more consistent for stopping threats, the data and also the video evidence I have seen from departments that still use .40 S&W like San Francisco or Houston shows it performing significantly better than 9mm. So, this is just my opinion and this is coming from a guy who more or less teased his best friend from 2001 until a couple of years ago about him carrying .40 S&W. He started carrying it when it was popular and just never stopped. After I started researching and testing the cartridge, I realized he was right about the cartridge.
One last thing, please stop with the "ammo availability" talk. The .40 S&W is literally the 2nd or 3rd most common handgun cartridge out there. I see it at every store reasonably priced, ammoseek has so many results that you can't see all of them without modifying a search to be more specific on type of .40 S&W ammo, and it's as cheap as $12.99 a box of 50. So enough rambling, I just wanted to state some studies, facts, and opinions from my point of view on .40 S&W VS 9mm.
In what scenario is "one shot stop" data relevant for the average person? The only people I hear boosting "myths" or fuddlore are the 40cal/45acp acolytes who think 30 year old arbitrary data on POLICE shootings is a good metric to use to determine what caliber a CCWer carries in 2024. I don't care what percentage of 1980s 9mm Hydrashok dropped someone in one shot because if I have to brandish and fire a gun at Walmart or the post office, I'm shooting several times at a minimum. Most citizen-involved shootings are 7 yards or closer, yet I still see 40/50/75 yard shots because of an anecdote about Elijah Dickensin. Stickers for "data" when it comes to cops incapacitating someone in a single shot or not but when it comes to the data about what you are likely to encounter, we throw away the data and go to what-ifs. What if the threat that's 75 yards away has full-body level 4 armor North Hollywood Bank robbery style? Then it's not gonna matter if you have a 9mm or a 40
But to realistically reply, why would any person disregard data on how effective a cartridge is because a police officer was the one who happened to pull the trigger one time? Why would a person see an advantage, even if it's a small advantage and call it fudlore? We are not talking whatever hero fantasy you have about illegally carrying on federal property like a post office and saving the day, we are talking about terminal ballistics and the differences between them.
If a person wants to remain at 7 yards for practice and not move out further that's their choice, but 75 yards for me is nothing more than a practice to improve my marksmanship up closer, you know - that most important thing people now days don't think about, then have to buy optics. More power to them, it's America but I prefer knowing a thing or two about what I am carrying, before I carry it, not assume it's fine and that i'll just shoot a bunch. That's just me.
BOOM so much! CORRECT!
@GunSam after doing my own red neck science tests with a discarded windshield and a frying pan i would rather carry a smaller barreled s&w shield in 40 or a glock 27 than a full sized glock 17 in 9
Went back to revisit your video and saw your comments to it. Very well stated with facts. I had already read your referenced data. The 40 S&W is superior to 9mm. Capacity is a moot point for civilians. However the 9mm is a great option for folks that can't handle the recoil or are looking for a smaller carry option.
Thanks for your push back and sound advice.
40 is the correct answer vs human sized questions
Agree with you 100%
40...but master the snap
@andrewgates8158 no master your grip n reaction that will help your follow ups
I was a Deputy Sheriff for 27 years also a SWAT commander and firearms instructor. Ive always felt that 180gr was a little heavy for 40. Its grest for 10mm. Ive always preferred 155-165 gr for .40 S&W. It just has better velocity and foot pounds of energy. For off the shelf ammo its hard to beat HST 165gr. Its my EDC round when i carry .40. Thanks for the test, i really enjoy your videos . Hope you have a wonderful day.
Thank you. I agree. The numbers from real incidents do show 155-165 gr as king, often nearly as effective as .357 Mag, and in testing I see similar results, what some people would call "under-penetration" I call perfect. Smacking the gel, blowing apart the MDF, fragmenting and stopping at 10" is about as good as it gets for a regular person.
I agree with you on the .40 S&W.
I do also think, though, that if the 180 grain version were driven just a little faster?
It would perform better than 165 grain.
And I seldom see it mentioned now and haven't saw anyone test it in years.
But there were and maybe still are 130-135 grain loadings that perform about like .357 Sig or standard .357 magnum.
So the .40 S&W really is a more dedicated, self defense/law enforcement sort of cartridge than 9mm Para.
I read once that when the U.S. military was considering adopting a new handgun here in recent years.
That there was some thought being given to adopting either the .45 ACP again, or .40S&W.
But due as much to international politics, and existing large stocks of 9mm ammunition still being in arsenal inventories.
The U.S. military decided to stay with 9mm Para as it's "general issue" handgun cartridge.
However.
There is word that during the GWOT.
The military DID adopt a high pressure, "open tip" cartridge instead of the conventional standard 9mm, for issue.
The 40cal in 155 and 165 grains is what I have been carrying for over 24 years now. A magazine of 155gr and two magazines with 165gr . In the late 90s my research determined what I was going to EDC.
THANKS SAM !!
@davidrdanner4232
For about 15 years I carried .40 S&W 155 grain Winchester Silvertips rather exclusively in my .40 Glocks.
It served me very, very, well.
But of late.
I'm finding myself enamored with Buffalo Bores heavy .38 Special 158 grain LSWCHP, Hornadys Critical Defense 125 grain .357 magnum and a couple of a certain companies 200-190 grain .44 Special loadings as EDC.
And have thus given my usual .45 ACP and .40 S&W pistols a prolonged vacation.
The 155-165 grainers have better velocity and energy due them being lighter than the 180 grainers. The 180 grainers have more momentum, which means it loses energy at a slower rate once it hits something. I read a couple of stories in which the .40 didn't penetrate more than a few inches on a bad guy. I don't recall the load used, however. One was in Pennsylvania, a few LEOs shot an 18 year old bad guy a number of times. They finally put him down with an AR15.
40s 👍
Both rounds did well, but I'm with you: For a self-defense round, I'd rather have the .40. Huge pay off for a small increase in recoil.
40 is great!! Got a great channel
Thank you
I am predicting a 40 comeback. With more and more tests like this it’s hard to argue the 40 calibers effectiveness. I was in law-enforcement for five years and shot a lot of 40 caliber out of my Glock 22. I’ve never been one of those to bash 40 caliber because I’ve seen firsthand how training eliminates any recoil concerns compared to 9mm. 9 mm cartridges in hand guns are great today, but so are the 40’s.
Really enjoy your videos and how they’re formatted. Beautiful day there. Looking forward to seeing green leaves there again.
Hope your health is good Sam
Thank you. Michigan got up to 50 degrees a couple days in a row. Right after a few weeks of 10 degrees and a lot of snow. Usually February and March are pretty wintery, we don't see any tree buds until late April. I'm looking forward to spring.
40 isn’t dead but rapidly dying. Just is 🤷♂️
@@stevesmith756 ive realized 40sw is a cartridge you see a lot of people talking crap on, but people who actually know ballistics know it is a really strong offering
@@milesstover3724 not talking crap on it. Good ballistics. It’s just not a fun round to shoot. Most people find it snappy and in a micro it flat sucks. Woman especially can’t shoot it. That’s why our department and most departments went back to the 9 mm. And also cost
Won't come back unless manufacturers make pistols for it. So as long as people keep buying 9 instead of old 40 stock it's not happening
FBI said that with modern bullet technology, 9mm is as good as 40. But that same technology applies to 40 caliber as well. So, I personally thing 40 caliber is a better option
The FBI started hiring little women and their .40's started jamming on them. So the FBI came up with that modern bullet technology line based on gel testing lol. Then that info got picked up by mall ninjas -"With the right bullet" is always the start of 9mm fanboy's argument, or often it's "with modern bullet technology".
Way back in 1939? 1940? The British Army was doing 9mm tests for the Sten? High Power? My memory fails me on the year/weapon. The ballistics were 1,300 FPE with a 116 gr FMJ bullet. Pretty much equal to todays 9mm. So, in my humble opinion, the 9 mm is a respectable round, but it really hasn't changed in 84 years.
@@GunSam I'd just love to have one of these people explain in math, mechanics, metallurgy, and engineering what "modern bullet technology" they are referring to. Speak intelligently about it, otherwise it's just slogans and words without backing.
Yes HST is good, Gold Dot is good, Critical Duty is good, Golden Sabre is generally good. But this isn't voodoo magic. Explain "modern bullet technology." It's not enough to say something exists today that didn't exist 50 years ago. Current is not always "better." Old is not always "ineffective or worse." Ballistic knowledge and metallurgy isn't an art form invented in the 1990's. Sometimes I feel like online jabber is nothing more than duplication of gun tubers cranking out video after video where all they talk about is "sleek high BC" and "energy down range."
No offense, but the feds hiring “little women” and the “.40 jamming on them” is anecdotal at best, and there’s definitely not stats available based on formal testing to prove that. Moreover, even if said testing was performed, and a true anomaly was identified, the findings would not be relevant to guide force-wide caliber selection because the ratio of male to female agents is so drastic. But it is probable that they made the switch because of modern ballistic capabilities of 9mm
@@DanielMartinez-lz3otit is a respectable round and these caliber arguments are absolutely friggin stupid. Everyone starts by talking the "9mm fanboy" bullshit and then immediately start talking up their favorite caliber and why it's so much better than 9mm. I personally don't want to be hit with any caliber at all and I'm willing to bet that nobody else does either. It really does not matter what caliber it is, if it drills your brain or heart you're most likely dead. I get sick of the debate and hearing about "the street numbers". Just carry a fuckin gun period and protect your family.
Two rounds I nearly bought guns for during COVID were .17 HMR and .40 Smith & Wesson. I'd always see piles of .17 HMR ammo, and nearly purchased a Tika. Two weeks later, I was really glad I didn't. All the .17 HMR dried up really fast for some reason. When ammo started hitting the shelves again, it seemed like the only thing they got consistently was .40 S&W, and NOBODY was buying it. Most stores had about 1 foot of shelf space for 9mm and smaller calibers, about a foot for large calibers, and the entire rest of the shelves filled with .40. But I figured if I bought a 10mm, I can just buy Federal 10mm, and it'll be just like a .40, since that's how Federal loads them.
Whether is was a big stick, a bat, a sword or a sling with rocks.... was using a weapon ever something easy to get on with?
And people cry over .40 S&W because it's fractionally slower or more difficult to handle than 9mm. Yet it's effect is documented. Same with .45acp or .357mag.
Now there is legitimate reasons for someone to seek low recoil, simplicity, and so on. Usually it's permanent physical limitations.
Yet the vast majority of folks make decisions about caliber because of law enforcement and military decisions, because of peer speak, because of clan movement, so little of which made the decision because the cartridge was supposedly 'so effective.'
I can't prove it, but was the "development of 9mm" in the recent decades in response to how great it was, or was it in response to big clients making a decision away from .40 S&W, due to DEI policies, women in LE and defense, and other economic reasons? I'd wager the later.
Train hard, understand tools take time, proficiency with anything takes dedication and intentionality.
.40 in the berettas px4 rotating barrel has significantly reduced recoil. It makes 40 a more viable option for more peeps. It feels like having a shock absorber.
the PX4 is built like a Sherman tank
Also the new Glock Gen 5s in 40 S&W with the heavier slide and stronger recoil spring supposed to have less felt recoil.
@@Gieszkanne The g23 gen 5 has very reasonable recoil.
@@nathanjames7030 I didnt wrote that it has no recoil just less. I have seen many reviews and they say its feel the same like a G19.
@@Gieszkanne I agree
The .40 is a great option for many reasons, I've always liked it but in terms of .40 S&W and 180gr, yes 180gr takes up more room in the case but factory ammo is just that. The same powders that can get you good performance from 10mm also works great in .40 S&W and I've ran 180gr to 1200 fps in a 4" G23. Not seeing much velocity gain from a 4" to a 5" is indicative of a fast burning powder (which is what most factory loads use as it's more economical) , a slower burning powder would show more difference and in addition, heavier bullets react less to barrel length changes than lighter bullets. With the right powder, that 5" .40 S&W of yours could sling 180gr to well over 1200 fps, closer to 1250 fps, which is pretty incredible from a 9mm sized gun. BTW 180gr .400" has the same sectional density as a 230 gr .451" (.45 ACP).
I like the 9mm too, I carry it some and it's good for economical shooting and with good JHP I feel that it can be effective for sure, but it's not a .40 S&W. From everything I've read, the main reason (to many) that the 9mm is better is because it's easier to shoot. The argument isn't "wrong" but the way I see it is this, the 9mm is advantageous to the user, the .40 S&W is advantageous down range, which is more important?
Great video, as usual. I think both cartridges performed very well, and I wouldn't feel undergunned with either one. I have always preferred .45 ACP, but that may be due to using it from the get-go many moons ago. Given that, I tend to carry a nine more often than not, especially in hotter weather, and that is usually a Shield Plus or similar. If the weather is cold enough to wear a true coat (thirties or so) I will then carry a 1911 Commander or Officers model. I just recently picked up a .40, so I am paying attention to everybody's videos, including yours. Thanks for all your work.
165 hst and gold dot are both very impressive ❤
165 HST in my .40 caliber as we speak.
What general weight would you prefer, Sam, in .45acp? 185? 200? 230?
@@lanesworld4000 If you live in California, legal requirements for copper loads would have people seeking options. Generally speaking, .45acp is loaded in the other weights
I own to Khars in 40. The polymer framed gun reminds me of my 2.5 inch 66 a little willful.
In a steel frame gun its great
I like and trust my 40's more than my 9mm's. I also like my 357 sig better than 9mm. Great video and channel I watch your videos regularly.
Federal HST - the best SD ammo on earth!
thanks, great vid.
Great expansion on the 147gr. Speer Gold Dot is good stuff.
That 147 really shines in one of the new pistol carbine accuracy is off the chart out to 50 yards and 75 yards still head shots are possible.
124 and 124+p perform better in all tests for gold dot and federal
Unless u can call in Air Strikes as backup i wouldnt chose a 9mm just cuz the military uses it. For civilians protecting family or possible 4legged threats a 40,357sig,10mm or 45 is hands down a better choice
Many dont consider that handguns in military are just backup guns. The main gun is the rifle.
@@Gieszkanne Absolutely these kids get hardons for Seal Delta Ranger LARP and CQB when the last 2 conflicts the biggest best equipped well fed army in history got spanked by farmers in sandles with smoothbore AKs, booby traps, IED and a will to die for beliefs.
Political crap is responsible for the outcome of our last several conflicts. @@olmangarcia943
Great testing as always!! Thank you!
Those MPs are nice. Good vid, amigo!
I really really like and appreciate your style on this comparison video. Very well done. You present a considerable amount of information and get it out and across in a way that registers for me. That’s always been a challenge for me. Thank you. I went ahead and subscribed to your channel. I look forward to seeing some more of your work
Thanks again,Sam!Love the .40 for home/self defense.
Really good performance from both. I agree with your opinion about the 40 S&W. Glad you're highlighting a great cartridge.
GS. Another good video. Great comparison of ammos. Thanks for sharing and take care.
Thanks 👍
I like seeing the straight line performance through a barrier with good expansion and penatration. Hard to beat a heavy weight for that. Aways enjoy your channel!
I really enjoy your videos. The consistency in testing gives your reviews integrity. The details such as the sectional density of there bullets are great information, and clearly ties the comparison of different calibers together. Keeping up the great work. 😎👍
Thank you
The government bought a billion rounds of 40 SW and then switched back to 9 mm supposedly because of improve ballistics but has a retired Federal Employee I can tell you they switched back to 9 mm because of the fact it's cheaper than 40 SW. 40 SW is ballistically better than 9 mm. Great video as always thanks!
I can tell a few reasons. For us it was cheaper, the female could not shoot the 40 and even the newer gen of male cops can’t shoot the 40
@@stevesmith756 ya they lowered standards for females to be able to qualify and that allowed weak males to qualify. I know from personal experience. I agree with you 💯
Not saying I'm one of the weak males lol. I was in the job in 1985!
I think Europe plays a pretty big role in 9mm production, like we want enough for wars there, to give to NATO or however it works. From some of the employees at major ammo factories mouths, apparently they run 9mm non stop. They don't ever stop loading it and they setup a different line to load .40 S&W on another day, or .38 Special on another day and maybe those are loaded a couple days a week and oddballs like .327 Federal are loaded once every 6 months or whatever, but 9mm has it's own production line that never ever stops.
But I can see why the 9mm is popular, as by random chance, that cartridge runs semi auto pistols extremely well, like the power and recoil, nose ogive is perfect for making a reliable pistol, so that means weaker people will not induce malfunctions and the ballistics are decent. I will have had my M&P9 2.0 for 3 years next month. I have ran thousands of hollowpoint ammo in it, Gold Dot, HST and all the rest including mostly +P and a lot of +P+. I am up to ZERO malfunctions in that time. Which for me, is good considering I got non stop comments how I limp wrist jam my semi autos, because when people see my 10mm conversion videos where I never got it running right, hundreds of people kept screaming limp wrist.
Thanks for a few rounds less in the mag, I'll stick with my 40 cal HST's in my Glock 22. Good review as always!
Another great video. Thanks for sharing!
Thank you
I'm just like you.
I listened to Yeagerite (RIP) Philosophy 4 YEARS that said it was just a "Gun Abuser" with no real advantages but ~ 3 Y ago I bought a 40 slide CHEAP for my FNS 9mm and shot it as well as the 9mm if not better...
Thanks to your vids I'm getting "fuzzies for the 40"!~!!
Looks like an EFFECTIVE cartridge!
i dont want to talk bad about James but his take (and willingness to die on the hill of 40sw) on 40 was absolutely nonsensical. It was almost like he needed to find some contrarian position to take in firearms topics. When i can shoot over 500FPE at the muzzle of my 40sw pistol, I dont really care if it does a couple thousand rounds less in lifetime span than a 9mm setup.
Great comparison !
Great video… 40 gold dot was kinda hard to find… luckily I found some to reload
Good review, Sam. And good shooting at 75 yds. I have a really choice S&W Model 646 in 40 S&W caliber. A lot of fun to shoot. Hope you are feeling better now, Sam. Last video of yours that I saw you weren't feeling well at all.
Thanks. I often don't release in order videos, as I might film 3 in a row no revolvers featured, then do the same with 3 revolver videos in a row and then I release them staggered to keep the content from getting boring. I was very ill from about December 10th until January 20th or so. Lots of doctors, short hospital stay of 3 days, serious bacterial infections. But I think i'm back.
thank you again for all your research and info. i carry a 40 to back up my 605. either an all steel astra a75 or gen 3 glock 22 depending on weather and where i'm going. i have a 9mm conversion barrel for the glock and i have the 9mm version of the a75, too, so i can practice with cheaper 9mm ammo. the a75 takes the same mag in both pistols, carrying one more 9mm. i also have a 9mm laser cartridge for even cheaper practice. i shoot 40 at times, too, to keep it real. i'm not a bad shot, but one day i would like to shoot closer to your ability and skill.
I know in Tennessee the service pistols are all 40 caliber because they do the job vs. 9 millimeter
Great test brother!
Thanks a lot!
I noticed something I had not previously noticed.
A blue jeans pocket makes a pretty good cross draw holster for a 5” barrel pistol. For years the quest was for a short barrel to conceal. A few noted the barrel length is easy to conceal. But the industry responded to making shorter barrels.
You could easily hide the grip do to its natural cant in your pocket.
Yeah lol. I actually wanted one of those Urban Carry pouches as I figured that's a perfect solution to a longer barrel, then I found out they stop at 4" semi autos. That makes no sense, the length is close to limitless the way they are designed. Lots of people struggle with ideas for 5" pistols and concealment while old men laugh. They been concealing 1911's all their lives.
Great comparison video. I carried Gold Dot 165s in .40. That round developed a good street performance reputation. We were issued that round until another manufacturer’s 180 grain was approved and issued (cheaper), and then the Glocks started breaking. I probably would have stayed with the .40 longer if we hadn’t switched bullet weights. I thought both of these bullets you demonstrated performed effectively, at least in gel. Gold Dots in general seem to perform well.
I remember when we switched from Sig 9s to Glock .40s. Initially,scores improved, but in time, they went back down to old bad habits creeping back coupled with lack of practice. The .40 S&W was good for its time because otherwise, one had to choose between something in +p+ that general had good street performance versus the 147 subsonics that had better gel performance, at least in terms of penetration. And the undisputed king, the 125 grain SJHP .357 Mag required a heavier L-frame or Ruger to keep the armorers from being overwhelmed, but even with the heavier gun, many weak and otherwise disinterested police officers couldn’t handle it. In the hysteria of 2013, 9mm was at the highest demand along with 45, .38, and .22, while I remember seeing .40 staying on the shelves longer. During COVID, though, it seemed like manufacturers forgot anything but 9mm or 5.56.
Around how many rounds of .40 caused Glocks to start breaking? Which generation Glock .40s were used? I think Glock came out with Gen 4 to be better for the .40 cartridge.
@@filippocorti6760 Gen 3 s were the ones I saw experiencing breakages - mostly trigger pins, but locking blocks on occasion. Saw one locking block on a Gen 3 27 go at about 200 rounds. Trigger pin on my 27 broke at a lot more. Never heard of such problems with the Gen 4s.
Both have great results. I definitely prefer the 40 and carry the 4.25" & 3.5" M&P40. I typically stick with 165 grain Gold Dot, HST & Critical Defense.
Another great video
Thanks again!
This comment might seem random on this video... Great video, as per usual, but I'm obsessed with mouse guns. I've been wanting to get an old vest pocket style 25 or the naa guardian 32. Any chance of a mouse gun caliber test in the future? I'm particularly interested in 32 acp jhp VS fmj from the tiny barrel of something like an naa or tomcat. I have a 365xl and an lcp max (which I have had zero ftf with, I think you should try one of those too) but I just love the even smaller but heavier all metal micro guns.
Great comparison. I think either works but bigger is alway better!
Personally I would take the .40S&W every time vs 9mm. Around here a .40S&W with hardcast ammo makes a great woods gun. All we have are black bears, maybe a cougar and hogs so no need for 10mm or stronger. This makes me wonder what that same ammo would register on the chrono out of a 4" barrel. Might not be much difference or it might be significantly less than advertised velocity.
I have a bias towards the .40. It's my EDC. The 9 has the capacity advantage. I prefer a big chunk of lead and the concussion it causes.
You reinforced the need to practice the Mozambique drill at the end of the video.
Unless you get a CNS hit, the bigger hole always leaks blood faster.
Yes, however to be devil's advocate, 9mm/.40 S&W/.45 ACP aren't a lot different in size, even expanded. I could see .22 LR as being easier to stop the bleeding than .45 ACP, but an expanded .55" vs and expanded .65" or whatever I got, is both going to look the same as far as how much blood drains.
@@GunSamexpanded 45 acp isn't much different than expanded 9mm?
Sam- try organic gel sometime. See Az Airgunner on this- the organic gel really emphasizes the differences a lot more than clear gel. the stretch cavities are FAR more disparate when you compare 300s fpe to 500s fpe in that medium. a lot of people see clear gel and think "I see no difference"
Thanks again!
Thanks for watching!
I was issued the Glock 23, .40 caliber when I retired in ‘97. Since then the department has returned to 9MM in Federal LE Premium 147 grain HP. We are a major mid size city but fortunately don’t experience many officer involved shootings so I’m not sure if it’s been street tested yet. The current issued weapon is the Glock 19.
I recently read that one of the design goals of the 40 was to get 45ACP performance with a higher magazine capacity.
I had not known this.
The design goal of the 40 S&W was to duplicate the FBI 10mm light load in a smaller-framed gun because the women they had started hiring for field positions had a hard time handling the guns that had a large grip circumference (45/10mm size). The 45 GAP (Glock Action Pistol) was an attempt to get 45 ACP performance in 9mm-size pistols, but the capacity was no better.
Then not long after the .45 GAP tried again to at least get the 9mm frame size even with no capacity increase. Probably the best invention of the 90s to make something as good as something else, was the .357 Sig.
@@noahmercy-mann4323 most agents and recruits could not handle the 10 mm blast and recoil to shoot accurately, plus the wear and tear one the guns was excessive given the technology of that time. So S&W came up with a short 10 mm as 40 S&W for the FBI. Note that the recent 10 mm loads have less velocity, which seems to be an industry wide understanding.
@@PassivePortfolios it would make sense to me why the industry standard weak loads in 10mm exist. I mean, most of these 10mm pistols are polymer frame so the recoil will jam up the guns for a lot of people. Making rounds that work in those sub 30 OZ platforms does make sense.
@@GunSam But with the 40 S&W you cant get also high velocity loads with 135gr that has 357 energy and on the other hand you also can go with slow and heavy up to 200gr with almost 9mm capacity. For me 40 S&W is still best pistol caliber and a better invention than 357 sig.
Good ammos to compare.
Just recently did some testing on Hornady Critical Defense 125 grain 357Mag Poly hp, They did not perform as well at all! this is my carry ammo =O
Should check out 356tsw they brought it back and they make conveesion kits for glocks 115grains at 1600fps
They both seem to have performed pretty good in these tests but I would still rather stick to Federal HST. Great video :-)
I keep 165 gr HST in my 40 caliber and 115+P+ 9BPLE in my 9mm.
@@GunSam for me it's the premium law enforcement 180 grain hst's that I keep in my 40 S&W carry gun:-)
Thanks for your time and 💲spent on these test. I do several test myself. Me personally i think you find out more on bullet performance on meat and bones. I’m old school and love the “meat target” test. Gel is an expectation of performance. .40 is a great round more power in real world. 9is good to but in meat target you never know where they will go there so light. 124+p anyway. 165-180 .40 just truck on through. Both are effective but .40 hits harder
I loved the bologna tests I did except I prefer catching the bullets in gel. I did a hybrid bologna/gel test briefly but that didn't work out so well and it drug bologna into the channel and it became a pain to have to come home exhausted from filming and then immediately start cutting up my gel before it rots.
@@GunSam ya that can be a mess. I do pork loin then pork ribs or beef ribs. Beef ribs a bit harder. Put clothes on them with a watermelon in middle or cantaloupe. Or sometimes wrap them around a water jug. The clothes meat and bones on my test will really test expansion. And all vary on caliber. Thanks for the reply. I always look forward to your videos.
The heavier.40 180 or 165 seems to do better, than the 147 grain 9mm. Thanks for the video
Sam...I have a 5" M&P FDE like you. Who's holster are you using and do you like it? I'm having some difficulty finding a concealed carry holster for the 5". These Smiths are the sizzle!
I don't actually carry it on body. In this video, I actually used a holster made for a Glock 30. It fits a lot of stuff but the muzzle hangs free. I was using a Safariland hard plastic one previously but I used it in my vehicle mounting of what I keep in there. I was debating finding a holster for a 5" M&P and carrying it but the options are limited. I was looking on craft holsters dot com about a year ago at some of the leather ones they offer, as they are one of the few companies to make them like that. If I was going to carry a 5" M&P i'd probably go with one of their leather holsters.
Both are good . 165 gr or less is best for 40 IMHO , with a muffler 180 would likely be Good . Depends on the gun & the shooter . Both do well from a full size .
180 gr is almost as 'bad' as .45 ACP 230 gr in that some hollow points expand great, but often times there's none so one has to be very careful and test 180 gr. The 165 gr is more or less in terms of reliable expansion, about like a 9mm 124 gr+P that rarely fails to expand.
Starts with a 4
@@GunSam
Accuracy trumps velocity. Just my opinion, and my experience.
Energy is what matters in shots-to-stop. If placement is good and the bullet performs, energy dictates- hunters know this
light to mid .40 is best in that caliber.
.357S is #1. 45 +P in 185 is #2. .40 in 155s is #3. 9mm is last after about every other weight in all of those calibers. Only +P+ 9mm like 9bPLE or Win 127s can compete
👍😊 dual wheel those two at 12y .
I think I want a 40 just to have it. I mean I have a 45 9 and a 380 might as well just have 1 of each. Also even nato country has the 9mm so with all this ammo shortage craziness. And all the military stuff going on around the world. It might be a wise move just to have one. That and 1000 pieces of brass and a mold.
The argument about magazine capacity does not make sense were I live. 10 rounds is the max we are allowed here.
Id tend to agree whole heartedly with Sams comments regarding 9mm in the video.
9mm is adequate at best for self defense and benefits greatly from being loaded to +P or +P+ levels.
But at those levels??
One might as well be using the more effective .40 S&W, .357 magnum, or just about any other large caliber handgun cartridge to achieve the same or much better results in combat, while using even fewer cartridges to do it.
_Certain_ "9mm is adequate at best".
@lifted_above
I think sometimes that cartridges like 9mm Para, .45 ACP, and .380 ACP that all hailed in their having been developed at the end of the 19th and beginning of the early 20th centuries?
Can have their REAL world, street performance greatly increased by being loaded to a slightly higher pressure/velocity than what should be considered as their "origin" or "standard" velocities.
Because at the time these particular cartridges were developed.
There wasn't anyone doing metric tons of ballistic research with human tissue simulants or anyone developing anything remotely like modern bullet technology.
At best?
There were early attempts to use tried and true truncated, flat nosed, FMJ, or wadcutter and semi-wadcutter profiled lead bullets and testing being done on things like "slaughter beeves" , hanging human cadavers, and pine or deal wood planks in order to HOPEFULLY achieve better battlefield or street combat performance.
All in all?
Basicly applying what had been learned during the 19th century about bullet ballistics in revolvers and single shot handguns...to early semi-auto and/or select fire handguns.
With even the 9mm Parabellum cartridge itself basicly being developed as a bit of a sales gimmick by Georg Luger, who hoped to interest militaries who preferred bigger bullets for shooting sword, spear, or bayonet wielding enemy troops...at hand shaking distances.
Instead of smaller calibered cartridges like .30 Luger, .32 ACP, or .25 ACP.
His attempt proved to have a mixed reception at the time.
With some militaries either prefering to stick with battle proven, revolver technology and/or large .44 and .45 calibered cartridges for their early "self loading" pistols.
While others embraced the new, semi experimental "self loading" pistol technology and wholeheartedly dove head first into issuing small calibered high velocity cartridges that could perform ok in a lab or on a target range....but often still proved to be only sometimes effective in actual REAL combat.
With usually their rapidity of fire or magazine capacity attempting to be depended upon to kill an enemy combatant....instead of the weapons cartridges capability itself.
Which in time evolved into the three schools or maybe what could be better be termed as "belief systems" that we have today when it comes to the point of WHAT cartridge is best for self-defense or combat.
Which usually breaks down into 3 schools of accepted thought today.....
1) Tends to believe that large caliber pistols or revolvers firing heavy, traditional, standard velocity cartridges like .45 ACP, .44 Special, .45 Colt, etc., are best
2) Tends to believe that small caliber, high velocity cartridges like 9mm Parabellum, that lend themselves to pistols with high magazine capacity and lowish are best
3) Tends to take a middle road approach and believe that medium to large caliber cartridges driving bullets at higher than standard velocity that can still lend themselves to moderate or high pistol magazine capacity are best
With number 3 really proving to be making the most, street and combat proven, sense of things.
But with the first two schools still garnering the most debate, supporters and industry sales each year.
Not bad for 40 S&w gold dots. I swear Speer hates 40 S&w as they seem to underload and underperform the advertised velocities and don't expand as large as some of the better 40 hollow points. I'm only going by tests I've seen on the tube not practical experience.
Actualmente posso usar o que eu quiser destes quatro ..380acp 9mm .40 e .357 mag...e gosto deles todos dependendo do que vou fazer escolho um diferente
After trying so many calibers, which is your favorite for personal protection?
👍👍
Both rounds are very good performers. Some manufacturers produce FMJ BOAT TAIL 147 grain bullets for 9 mm. What is wrong with these people lol?😂
you should have used hst it's better.
SAVE THE FORTIES! IT WAS ALWAYS GREAT & IT WILL BE GREAT AGAIN (In Pistols actually Engineered for it not barrel swapped BLOCKS!). Sam now that you are doing a bit better, can you do the Last 40 vid of what I sent you something like "IS EVEN RANDOM ODDBALL .40 GREAT & Better than 9mm?" I HAVE a ton of upcoming vids showing Gabe White Standards Dark Pin Passes w/40, & 9mm vs .40 in the Same HKP2000 pistols in CCW Drills since I can barrow pistols for vids, and plan to do an HK 9 vs .40 vs .45 Vid!
I'm not even sure if I can remember all of what there is lol. It's that time of the year where it's really difficult to film so I been filming half as much. I would have to really look at a lot of the info I already have on the past videos, take a look for that ammo too.
@@GunSam just take best guess and send em have fun w it
Very nice presentation. Thank you for your time and efforts preparing this amazing video....
Thanks. Thanks for watching!
I'm sticking with 9mm. Ammo availability is a huge thing!
True. I love my 9s. Just dont be the fanboy that compares +++++p+++++ to 40 and 10mm,.😁
During the pandemic 40 was one of the easiest calibers to find at least from what I experienced. Personally I like both! I like having different caliber options for that exact reason. My edc is a 9 but I plan on adding a 40 or a 10mm to mix soon
Lol, you left out my fave, the 45acp. l know I've aged myself, but the 45, shot per shot, surpasses the 9 and the 40 and with diligent reloading, gets close to the ten. So, after the Apocalypse, I'll keep my 45 'til the ammo runs out. Then I'll pull out the 9 !
I never understood the 'stick with' comments. I mean, why can't people do more than one firearm or caliber? Plus - I get the ammo comment, however when we are talking .40 S&W that is AVAILABLE everywhere, that comment doesn't hold much water.
@magnum_0710 That sounds like a good plan. However in a true apocalyptic breakdown, I wouldn't plan on buying any ammo. Your only resupply might be from the fallen, friend or foe. So get supplied ahead of time as best you can. Don't forget to allow for regular training with your supply...
Your commentary on actual police shootings is very valuable.
I have yet to find information on how much energy is absorbed by a bullet to expand into a beautiful flower. I don’t think it is insignificant. I am a flat nose bullet fan boy for this reason.
I get a lot of people coming at me like "bullets need this much or that much speed to expand!!!" Then I am like, why does the Hydrashok .45 ACP expand at 850 FPS lol? I think expansion is such a multi effect thing that it's hard to pin down. Hollow cavity size, energy, velocity, nose shape all play a part. Not to mention bullet construction. No surprise a lead hollow point can expand at 200 ft lbs energy and 800 FPS yet a 115 gr 9mm needs at least like 1,050 FPS.
40 needs to use lighter bullet weights
165 for the 40 all day
I personally think James Yeager is responsible for the whole "9mm is the answer" although he made valid points about the .40 wearing out firearms and the 9/40/45 being so close to terminal damage..
Yeah, I remember a video about him saying how it beats up frames. I think in reality it beat up early generation Glocks and nothing else. Now days guns handle them fine, if that were not the case Glock and S&W would not have polymer frame pistols in 10mm lol
Bigger holes are better
There is one case where smaller holes are better!
40s&w is really good for self defense. Its only unpopular with sheep that follow.
Police use Gold Dot in 223 and 9mm all over the country and its a old bullet, those velocitys were good.
9mm is a paperweight or a great gun for woman! Men carry 357sig or 10mm so they live
The answer depends on the question. Are you asking what the best gun is for personal protection or which gun is best for protection against a person? If you're truly asking which caliber is better for personal protection then he answer is the 40calober b cause with the right bullet it can handle most bears and large game that pervade this country in all but the most urban of areas, but even those ppl go on trips to the mountains. So if you want one gun for protection it's the 40 because the 40 will stop most things not just humans with proper rounds.
And I don't want to hear any morons tell me about how a 9mm can take a bear blah blah blah. Sure, a knife can take a bear to, I watched a guy kill one with a blowgun, but reliability is the key here. I'd rather have bear spray than. 9mm. It's arguable I'd rather have bear spray over the 40 cap even, but if I had to only have a gun it be the 40 because bears are every where and these morons are bringingback wolves in areas they don't currently exist. Anyways, I don't only worry about ppl, I worry about wildlife. That said I do understand most ppl would have to leave their house to encounter a bear so this may not apply, but me, I go outside, and Joe Rogan has done a good job of making worry about a bear eating me alive butt hole first
With the 40 S&W you cant get also high velocity loads with 135gr that has 357 energy and on the other hand you also can go with slow and heavy up to 200gr with almost 9mm capacity. For me 40 S&W is still best pistol caliber and a better invention than 357 sig. Its very versatile! But the differnece here in muzzle rise is significant between 9mm.
No question, 40!!!!
A well-placed shot, not a caliber selection is the important factor
That logic says .22 Short, is just as good as .44 Magnum. You know, you could have said shot placement was as important but you didn't. You said a well placed shot, NOT caliber selection is the important factor. I just have to say, no one agrees with you. No legit person carrying, no government agency/LE agency etc. Caliber/cartridge selection is extremely important as is specific bullet style/load. If this were not the case, Gold Dot and HST should be dumped in the trash and all police should go back to FMJ ammo.
9 mm is cheaper, more readily available, less recoil and blast, higher capacity, less wear and tear on the guns. That's why the 40 S&W and 45 ACP are in decline, especially with law enforcement agencies. The US military officially adopted the 9 mm back in the 1985, with the Beretta 92, ditching the 45 ACP. As for the public, most people are sensitive to ammo prices so the popularity of the 9 mm is growing.
I agree it is cheaper. The military moved to 9mm and Beretta, however, because of women, NATO, and cruise missiles in Italy.
The 9mm is cheaper....that's it. It's under contract to military and police and thus produced daily, never stopping production. So when it's cheap, people often choose all their handguns in that caliber, then after the fact praise whatever they can praise about it to justify their choice. In my opinion, just because a lot of people without a lot of knowledge on gunfights praise something because another person praised it first, doesn't convince me. Price price price is all it is.
Street credibility shows 9mm to be a pretty poor performer, and higher capacity over .40 caliber? Yes, but if you are saying 17+1 is really needed and it beats 15+1, that's sort of like saying - either you need 18 rounds to stop a threat because the first 17 shots were ineffective or one sees themselves getting into a gunfight with 4 guys, pulling off all those shots and winning the day, which I have never heard of such things happening. It happens in movies a lot and people, often very young men, see it as reality.
I prefer looking at the actual statistics of defensive gun uses, and the real world data shows 9mm as not being particularly effective and the news stories of these legendary multiple attackers being shot and only winning because of high capacity, seem to not exist. Sure, you can find videos where a defender is confronted by 5 guys, and the defender opens fire and hits maybe one of them and the rest run for their lives, but that doesn't tell me much as the same thing would have happened if he opened fire with a 2 shot derringer.
@@GunSamTo quote the most excellent James Yeager "If whatever you are shooting at won't go down with a 9mm or 45, you need a rifle." The reality is that the vast majority of handgun calibers are poor performers especially when compared to a rifle. The margin of difference between 40 and 9mm is negligible.
I think the Beretta 92 won the military trails, the bid was lowest, and they agreed to make the guns in the USA. Lol, nothing to do with missiles in Italy. I own several 1911's, 92's, and Sig P226, love them all equally. @@pepere2205
@@kylebrasseur2687Amen bro! I carry a 9mm but I don't get into caliber debates because it's STUPID. That's what's great about having all these options today is people can buy and carry whatever the hell they want, I'm just happy that they have something period. But yes, compared to a rifle, none of these damn handgun calibers even come close. Idk why everything no matter what it is, whether caliber or brand of gun, has to be a comparison to prove which is better. Just encourage good people to exercise their God given right and duty to protect their families and themselves period.
How come u don’t test rifles?
Remember: in 1953 Bella Twin killed a World-record grizzly with single shot of .22 Long (not Long Rifle!).
Just learn how to shoot, don’t rely on “magic bullet” damn it!
So you are saying, don't use cartridges that are documented as more likely to stop threats, use something not likely at all and just shoot good? Genius. I think all law enforcement, military, weapons training and all of that have it all wrong. Thanks for the education.
@@GunSamCould you remind me which military uses .40?
All I say is 9 is as good as 40, just costs 2/3 of 40.
@@surevaliance7940 Because militaries and now police use the cheaper option, does not mean that this cheaper option is a better one. I do know however, there are special forces type units that use the .40 S&W. You can say what you will, but watching video after video of LE footage of 9mm not working, and .40 S&W indeed working well, is all I need to know. I don't need keyboard commandos to tell me the opposite of what I am seeing.
@@GunSam FYI, you’re talking to the former Military and LE with four BOTG tours to Chechnya in 90’s and eight years in narcs.
Again, there’s no magic bullet. Stick with less costly cal., so you’d practice more.
Also, 9 is less snappy, easier to return to the target, higher mag capacity, most common.
BTW, in many LE agencies officers are free to choose their carry cal. Still, they switch to 9. Don’t trust my word - go and see how many LE trade-ins 40’s and 45’s are up for sale.
Sucks that ammo companies are favoring 9mm for their production. Nothing against nine, I Just want full power 10 and 40 ammo.. We should all write some letters😂
Unfortunately the machine has pigeon holed people into 9mm being the only non cost prohibited cartridge to train with. Yep... all by design.... 🤷♂️
A 180grain going the same speed as a 147 sad
I don't care what TH-cam says.... I will use .10mm, I want to stop the threat to my family in a self/family defense situation.
Who exactly is TH-cam? If TH-cam says something, I wouldn't trust what it says. I only gather information from people.
32 Caliber is better than both 😉
Neither , .357 Sig or 10mm
I don't like 40 because it's not 10mm. 😋
But....okay you're right. It's only .40"
9mm is poor choice for self protection
It's one of those things, like how Colion Noir said, that 9mm fanboys who prove how good it is, use everything BUT 9mm. Like they use 9mm+P+ to prove how good 9mm is, when technically even 9mm+P is a completely different cartridge than 9mm. The 9mm is 'good', and with Federal 9BPLE 115 gr+P+ it's about as good as .40 S&W and .357 Mag, sort of....but just '9mm' is a bit underwhelming.
U could say that because 357sig exists;)
@@GunSam Never seen a cop shooting video of a suspect running off after 6-10 rounds of 40sw
I say that bc 9mm sucks
9mm🤢🤮
In many jurisdictions, just using a firearm to defend your life means choosing to die or spend the rest of your life in the penitentiary. Using ANY hollow point ammunition will be portrayed by left-wing prosecutors as indicative of the action of a homicidal maniac. You're probably better off just throwing cash at a home intruder and changing addresses. Ain't life in America grand?
You have no idea what you're talking about
I had you all set up for a sponsor but you never sent me your email address I asked you for it a couple of times
I don't know you or have any idea what you are talking about.