why I hated Investment Banking
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ค. 2024
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Thought you said you'd stop talking about IB once you're out? Guess anything for those views...
STFU, it's his channel, let him make videos about anything he wants. I enjoyed the reflection
Yeah my views have been going down i needed the kick
@@TheBryanJun 😂
Thanks for your 2c. So glad you opened your mouth
I appreciate a lot when hearing from insiders’ view. If u don’t like pls just quit😅
I’m a former IBD summer analyst and your points really hit; I pissed away my weekends doing projects that literally never mattered or my superiors literally forgot about, even though they forced me to do it in breakneck speed. I couldn’t stand the level of pointlessness, the dated heirarchy, and how much of my time I wasted.
So I took an extra year of college, switched to CS, got into Software Engineering, and now make IBD analyst pay for half the hours and half the unintelligent culture.
They let summer intern go or they actually hire them?
@@benbenjamin7119 from my understanding if you do a good job once you graduate there's a good chance you get hired.
The tears really hit home. You feel helpless because you know you’re right and you know someone is being unkind to you for the sake of it rather than for a purpose that would benefit the business.
:( no more tears!
Just part of the game
There is no constructive "purpose" of being unkind.
@@ThegamerofdeathHD lol aiight homie
well you know what tribe is involved with investment banking
I completely agree! I work in the recruitment department for IB and the clients are super needy, want things done a certain way & when you deliver- it’s like crickets. I think it’s more about being heard and power than actual impact of some of their “urgent” demands. Our processes take forever & are outdated, and the bureaucracy is insane.
As a first year Associate in IB, I completely relate with every point said. The level of redundancy, resistance to change, and false sense of urgency in this industry is heartbreaking
yup the 3 things i despise the most
@Bryan Jun refreshing to hear people talk candidly about this, sounds to me like you’re reflecting on a toxic working culture in banking where respect isn’t afforded to juniors in order to reinforce hierarchy
I have been in investment banking for 22 years. You are correct; outdated procedures take so much time that in reality you end up being an overpaid secretary. This is everyone; with their Microsoft Word fonts, entering data into an excel spreadsheet, using a 10 year old piece of internal software that is ultra slow that requires someone to add all the details into it. All in all, again investment bankers are overpaid secretaries. FYI: my boss refuses to stop using Excel and Outlook as a database but keeps complaining that her PC keeps crashing all while holding onto 6,000 emails. They waste so much of your time with this. Investment banking only serves to feed the person who is above you ego. Their ego says the project has to be in their inbox by Monday at 8 am. There is no accountability or someone to tell these people that the way they do business doesn't make sense.
How have you been in IB for 22 years yet speak like a junior ? Are you an executive assistant?
@@soberhans4209 I know it seams suspicious he’s probably an accountant or something if your in IB for 2 decades your easily clearing over 500k salary and we’re not even including bonuses he’s just some guy who always refused to grow now he’s looking back at his career with regret
@@soberhans4209 If they've been in IB for 22 years, they would neither have the time, nor interest to respond to a defected analyst's TH-cam page. No offense Bryan.
@@soberhans4209 how does he sound like a junior exactly?
Sure bro you've been in IB for 22 years in wonderland 🤣🤣 maybe get out of the wonderland ? You'll do something in life
Friend of mine worked IB ... told me it was trash. He used to go after work and order tons of food at expensive restaurants just because he was working insane hours and needed something to "justify the madness". Thanks for sharing.
hahahah mixed feelings
American psycho vibes
@@pareenp probably the reason he went crazy 😅
Thanks for being so candid, appreciate it. Knowing what really happens out there.
My pleasure!
Glad I’m not the only one who thinks this way and I agree with your video. I absolutely hate it cause there’s so much pressure and stress. It makes you rethink the taking the job
I was a SA last summer and my associate gave me a company overview/pitch deck to do from start to finish over the weekend for the MD to look over before his lunch with a big client on Tuesday. I had to have it done by Monday for the associate to look over. I worked straight through the weekend including nights, it killed me lol. I still had to finish up on Monday and showed it to my associate late afternoon (luckily he was chill). The MD never ended up looking at it lol. I look at these things as tests of grit and focus in a way, knowing that next time I’ll be much more efficient on even harder assignments. Thanks for speaking honestly about banking, and you really shouldn’t be afraid to fully voice your dislikes without constantly disclaiming, regardless of it being a “high-paying” job. It really is not the end all be all and it’s good to bring attention to some of the nonsensical aspects of the job.
just another day
Appreciate your thoughts, your feedback is immensely helpful for someone eyeing the sector for a career. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience and I hope your new endeavor is more fulfilling!
thank you!
Also, there is a caste system in investment banking. They will really do things like force you to work on your time off to show you that in their world you are lower status than them.
I believe that a lot of times with these jobs is that you go in thinking you're getting hired to do the job that you worked and studied for but instead up becoming someones personal assistant
Great insights, thanks for sharing this man 🙌🏾
Thanks for watching
Great video man
really like your takes and honesty about the industry man. I'm planning on graduating in the spring with a finance degree and your info and knowledge and experiences you share help younger people getting into the industry like myself have a better understanding of the finance industry and being an investment banker. we appreciate u man! Happy friday, hope you can enjoy this weekend without worrying about some bs from a vp lol fr tho
yeah forreal glad im out of it
Great points 👍🏻
Thanks!
I sort of agree with the Oxford comma point. I would definitely notice the inconcistency, especially because I have nothing better to do.
Thank you for making this video. This is deep, and it is empathetic.
Just truth
Great Video bro, I really enjoyed this. It was great insight into the culture of investment banking. Thank You
Glad it helped!
Bryan, when you got to that "email in my inbox by 8am" only to hear about it days later, "It got lost in my inbox" part... That cut deep.
:')
very well openly discussed.....all the best for your future :)
Thanks!
I related so much to this. Is not the pressure itself, but when superiors put so much pressure and make you spend so much of your time doing trivial grunt work that adds no value, it eats away at your character.
Im glad I got out.
Great video loved it!
I try!!
Thank you for sharing Bryan :)
so sorry you felt like this. I already know from this video that you're a very creative person. I like giving my input on stuff too
yeah I'm realizing more and more that I am
Thanks for reflecting - very interesting video! Something I've thought about a lot.
thanks much!
I started in startup world and just got into finance as a VP. Granted, I am in asset management not IB so it's a bit different in terms of work life balance BUT I really prefer the structure of a BB over the vague, no real room to grow, hyper visibility of working in a small scrappy startup. I worked in 4 of them before moving into a big bank. All in all I actually think most people will hate whatever they start their career in bc when you're just starting out the transition into a "real job" is just brutal. You will find all the issues with whatever it is and it will mess with your head. The overall way office jobs work is just unnatural and it takes a long time to settle into it.
Yeah id argue asset management is a completely different ball game than IB but id also strongly agree any first job is brutal for adjustment
Yeah
In real world it's so different
Than studying memorising applying
Alot of people can be good academically but miserable in office or workplace
You’re right, in a startup your role is always vague and there are no clear goals for how you can grow or move up and get promoted.
Can’t stress the impact that group culture, and team has on a person’s experience in banking and finance.
facts
I honestly wonder if bankers make busy work to justify head count and billable hours or w/e. Whole thing seems a bit ridiculous
Whatever you have said applies to all industries. There are so many instances of people asking why things are done this way and the response is “because it has always been done this way” If that’s the response then most probably whatever that needs to be done is not that important.
very true
I feel this. Although it could be your industry to meet a deadline over a weekend & then toss the idea entirely, but maybe also poor leadership/ work politics at play as well? (I've never worked in IB, so correct me if I'm wrong). The right managers/ leaders who are not afraid of getting questioned or receive pushback from a subordinate really can make a quality experience for yourself in the corporate scene. Anecdote: My industry has a high burnout/ turn-over rate for employees, but because our management understands work-life balance & we have a reasonable weekend shift rotation in place, burn out is low & everyone seems to hyped to be here.
What is the name of your industry?
That's why the tech industry is so great! We really try to be effective vs lubing up ego's
pros and cons for sure
Tech is stupidly saturated.
I spent first 6 years of my career in front office of the treasury services business in banking. I went to b school part time and ended up doing IB interviews to try to move over. During those interview process, someone very close to me was diagnosed with cancer during this time. Luckily that person made it through and is OK but when I found that out I realized that if I was in IB I wouldn’t have been able to help and spend time with this person. I decided not to go into IB. I am now a Director level and I am happy with my career and making decent money. Not IB money but def very good money and I have a nice work like balance….
Great video
Thanks!!
thank you so so so so much for this video !!
ofc
I work in data center engineering and this sounds like my exact experience. Navigating the job as a subordinate and identifying all of the tasks that are inefficient and working tireless towards a project only to find out it didn’t really matter to them that much
Being in corporate world I feel related to your story in many ways. I just want to let you know u r not alone. Some people r afraid to talk about it. U r brave. Good luck
I'm too brave
I've been an IB for 21 years at Wall Street and Asian banks. When we recruit it's a lengthy process. Popular opinion is that it's too long. I am not in HR, but I am usually the last to interview a candidate and that could be their 15th or 20th interview. When I evaluate a potential future staff member I look for character traits and attitude. What we do is hard. To be good at investment banking you need to be excellent all of the time.
great video!
Thanks!
Bryan you are smart and a critical thinker. Probably the type of person who should be higher up in that field than where you started. Unfortunately these companies have ingrained a type of culture where blind loyalty is more important than actually using common sense or critical thinking. At the end of the day….go someplace where you feel a sense of autonomy and can feel fulfilled and satisfied in what you want to do.
Dude you fucking nailed this video. I worked in Big 4 accounting for a few years before lateraling to investment banking. I experienced everything you described plus more. I couldn’t even last a year before I put my notice in. For anyone watching the his video, this guy isn’t exaggerating and it has nothing to do work ethic. Investment banking is the easiest job I’ve ever had in terms of technical expertise/nature of the work, but most insufferable in terms of culture and peers
i try i try hope you're doing better
Thanks for sharing!
I can relate to this so much. There is just one way out of this hell: being self employed.
truth but so much chance of failure
@@TheBryanJun can't you just trade stocks?
@@abefinance109 I don’t think trading stocks is the stability he wants. Also just because he was an investment banker doesn’t mean he would be a good trader.
this is the answer. So much BS in the corporate world. Skies the limit if you work towards being self employed
Clicked on this video because of how relatable your thumbnail's "why I cried in the office lol" was, and then proceeded to subscribe because of your YT banner 😂 (former lawyer here haha).
But in all seriousness, appreciated your reflective approach and that you attributed various issues to human nature (avoiding risk, routine, etc.). I felt like there were a lot of similar issues in the legal industry because of the same thing, and think it's a really helpful point to make for anyone watching who is considering going into professional services! - Em
Yea all professional services seems to be the same law is slightly sexier imo
Personally as a freshman wanting to pursue IB, I appreciate your honesty. Talking to older people in the industry they try to glamorize the job.
Yeah id still say it's a great start to a career but def pros and cons
Yeah to get suckers to work for them
Lol, these "suckers" earn six figures out of college.
@@thedoomaster14 True that. As they should though considering the recruiting process (especially if you are a non-target school) and terrible work-life balance
@@mckenzies6824 For first major job experience it's perfect. No one has said you need to be in IB your whole career.
I’m really deep in the post college IB disillusionment phase and this video validated how i feel lol. I don’t know what i want to do with my life anymore but it’s not this.
It's real but know there's A better side
Really like your videos.
same
Great job
thank you!
You’ve got a great radio voice
Thatd be a dream job tbh
I worked in Investment Banking for a couple.of years,I really hated it and the worst part was preparing all of these power point presentations
bro your complaints apply to EVERY CORPORATION. every company has "it's" way. every company has endless stakeholders and middle level managers. every company has "yes" men/women. aka the company man. every company has unreasonable and picky clients. every company ignores the input of younger employees. I learned early in in my career that the sooner you try to stop to change/fix/question things, the easier your life becomes and at the end of the day that's all that counts. Half the shit my moron managers had me do over the years for sales pitches never went anywhere. It was always a test to see if you're a team guy or not. They want you to read between the lines. Mind games, always. One time even I had a scumbag sales manager ask me to put together a sales letter as sort of a model/template for our team to use. He never said when he needed it by. That night we had our company Xmas party at a fancy hotel in NYC. At the party he asks me if it's ready for the morning and I said Fk no you didn't give me a deadline. The mofo sent me back to the office to finish it and I missed the entire party like a dork. Pure scum. I left the company a few mo's later. That was in 1998. If and when I see him again, if ever, he's gonna go to the hospital.
true!
The CEO of JP Morgan, Jamie Dimon, epxerienced something like this back in his consulting days. His quitted as he felt that these unnecessary and unproductive over hours are simply bullying. He then entered Havard Business School, found a nice mentor who captapulted his career.
The high pressure, unreasonable and arbitrary deadlines and demands, the long hours, etc, all these things may look and feel pointless, but they are part of the process to test one's commitment to the job and ability to work under pressure.
It's kinda similar to being in the Army. Lots of "hurry up and wait", doing seemingly pointless things, nobody in charge explaining anything, etc.
Great video and great points… I did not work in IBD but I did come from one of the big4 firms and it’s very similar, but actually worse, lower pay and similar hours as IBD and the work wasn’t very fulfilling.
:((
Videos on youtube are always more interesting when they are transparent ☺️💪💪
I try my best
Thanks!
Thank you so much!
great video
thank you!
U speak my soul, I feel like if u r a creative person it's hard to fit into finance , or any industry, better do a start up and change this world
yeah I'm too creative
I feel your suffering. People are ridiculous for doing that and should get a life. I think they did that because they went thru it before and decided they want others to go thru the same
I think suffering might be an overstatement considering the compensation but yeah there's some form of right of passage psychology going on
Agreed
To me sounds like the big IBs have become lax in a very strong business. Prime candidate for disruption…very interested now to see how fintech transforms this industry
Yeah but theres still a long line of peeps wanting the job tho
@@TheBryanJun what is your opinion on starting out in a fintech venture debt fund (revenue based financing) out of college rather than IB I have two offers -the fintech pays considerable less but this video and the venture lending space seems interesting, but I don’t want to pigeon whole myself out of college. My experience is an analyst internship and a junior summer IB internship.
This is pretty accurate. Everything in banking is urgent. 🙄 Definitely one of the most inefficient industries I've ever worked in.
yeah it's unreal tbh
Yeah, so true and some unrealistic targets
The ghetto tbh
Thank you for this video. Everyone likes the show the glamorous side of jobs like investment banking but no one really shows the less desirable aspects of the roles. Do you think it would be like this at most IB firms or just the one you were at?
I actually (and I'm not being forced to say this!!) think very highly of the firm I was at especially in relativity to other banks. I think it's an overall professional services issue
I’m sorry.
Learn from it and become better in your own way.
There are probably so many more pressures in that line of work.
I used to be that way too.
Now, I do it for myself and try (try) not to let over head pressure get the best of me.
Will you ever escape this pressure? No.
But you can look for ways to lessen it. Like taking a less critical/high pressure job. Working hourly, NOT salary.
Yeah banking isn’t the industry for creativity and I don’t see it will ever be… it’s all about making connections and building relationships with your boss and college… if the money doesn’t justify it for you, then don’t go for it… it’d be painful…
yeet
There should be work/life balance in order to live a joyful life. It's not worth killing yourself working nights and weekends. There is more to life than just work
Read the book "Discussion Materials". Fantastic look into Investment Banking as a Junior Banker.
will do
@@TheBryanJun I'd love to see your take on the book in a video. Pretty eye opening.
Hey thanks for the video. Really puts into perspective the whole glamor of IB. But do you think this could be limited to certain organisation and their corporate culture or the industry as a whole?
definitely industry / any corporate job tbh
The money and time that is being lost due to the inefficiency, even in high performing industries like investment banking is absurd. It really is a sign of weakness that the vps and mds seem to find no other way to deal with constructive ideas than to decline them. Jesus, I wanna do things differently and actually, I feel like things are going to change, it just takes a certain number of people from new generations to become part of it
I appreciate the video. I’m a junior in undergrad, and I really like concepts of finance, especially m&a and creating/forecasting values, but it just seems like the culture of a lot of finance firms is just… uhhh 😂 not ideal. I think it’s valuable to show the real thoughts people have about investment banking. It helps me better understand where I want to work.
What are your thoughts on corporate finance in the tech space? Idk, just curious.
Work in a Corporate development Team inside a large fintech company.
Better hours. Have a life.
Don’t die.
iirc, like the comment below, corporate development is a finance role a lot of people who tried IB are shifting into, not as much long term pay, but very good.
Also a sense of control over your time
Your video is bang on the money. Just because they are in a higher position to you, does not mean they are ALWAYS right. And secondly, if they don't want someone who is a free thinker and challenges them, then why don't they just recruit an 18 yr old straight out of high school who will act like a robot and never question anything and show initiative and cost 20% of the salary your making.
Investment banking is basically the IT of the finance world: overglorified and not as flashy as it's made out to be.
If you still are into the high-powered career vibe, you should try out consulting. I thought my job sucked, but hearing this it sounds 100X better. The partners are friendly, we don't work weekends and you are allowed to push back. Everything you do gets used!
Which consulting firm lol?
@@jessielemon2477
That can't be any type of consulting. I am knee deep in it and man, you have to work weekends, and consistently overtime to meet the deadlines that clients put down because your crappy firm won't hire much required resources. Really a world of 1/9 people actually do the job.
Although I see this is a problem mostly with small companies. I joined a big firm and somehow only work 40 hr weeks now, unless we have a really big deadline. Guess it will vary.
@@desfefe That's what I mean...I work for one of the big 4s in Asia, almost never had a 40h week, been 5 years thinking of quitting soon
I did 2 years and was hell. Was tough doing more than a year
Im rather proud of myself sometimes
I agree. Plus everything else about it
Web3 is nice tho hehe
@@TheBryanJun that’s the dream
I think most of the time, we just dislike the upper ups and not the job itself
It essentially rigorous training, some of which makes no sense, but it's designed to create mental toughness, the ability to work under ungodly amounts of pressure and following orders. Can it be considered arcane and even cruel....perhaps....but that is IB's method of training. Not for everyone.
truth
I work in big law and this sort of thing happens all the time there too
Yeah no surprise there
I worked in big law and during the busiest times I felt like shooting myself in the head almost every hour and very seriously not just jokingly. I thought it would feel better than my current situation.
Your tears is over 👍🏿 you doing well now
:)
Bryan, a big part of what you experienced is simply a generational thing. Your generation is taught to question everything, which isn't a bad thing at all. Unfortunately, the people you were working for couldn't care less about your ideas on efficiency. Moreover, 1st year sell-side associates always get shit on, and are assigned the most ungrateful, laborious, painstaking tasks. It's no different for new associates at law firms, they get the same treatment. It sucks, but it's only short-term; they are simply treating you the way that they were treated when they broke into the biz.
Disagree, its mostly about ego and feeling important. If the people your working for don't want you to question anything then why bother end up recruiting at the top universities. If you want someone to be a robot, never challenge or enquire about anything or show initiative and just be a glorified secretary or data input Clark just recruit an 18 yr old from straight from high school who will act like a robot and cost 20% of the money.
@@williamyohananlavi9598 No, you have no idea what you are talking about. You sound like a spoiled, young brat.
Can an auditing and management major work on investment banking?
ultimately, i guess an individual's IB experience all boils down to the team's culture...
this is very true
Niceeee you work at a start up now? What's your position?
Hey, could you be more specific with what position you were in. For example, analyst or associate? Also, what industry were you working. Industrials? Entertainment? Energy? Thanks.
I was an analyst in business services
What about the argument that by getting you to do all that useless stuff, they are giving you a ton of practice in case it ever is needed? Like karate kit with wax on wax off?
I think that's actually a fair argument if you're staying in finance - you get super good with repetition
I was a mca broker
I couldn't get out fast enough
The hours and monotony got to me
Is this IB as a whole or just a poorly ran firm? Im wondering if the sample size is too small to reflect the entire IB industry. Are these MDs you are talking about at majority of banks?
6:00 mark - artificial deadlines suck. it's good to move away from those people
100% accurate.. I thought I was the only one thinking like this.
I appreciate the realism.
real recognize real
Now I’m seconding guessing this field because these things would frustrate me on another level.
nah I still think if you have the opportunity to do so it's the best career start
I think this can apply to any corporate job tbh. One of the products we offer is being spun off into its own business which I will be supporting to an extent. This new business recently hired a director of finance and I set up an intro call with her just to do a meet and greet. 2 minutes into the call, she’s already giving me work to do. Mind you she’s not even my manager lol. Me being new I tell her I have no idea how to do this, but I’ll figure it out. I get a message about 5 minutes after the meeting and she’s like don’t bother with it. I reached out to my manager to ask him to help me with it and he says don’t even bother because that not something we own and not something that falls under your responsibilities.
The most important thing he said was, don’t just take work from everyone because then it’ll stick with you.
agreed
Do you think if you would've entered IB at the age of say 24-25 would you have learned to handle it better and maybe stayed for a few years? Its quite a lot for someone who's straight outta college.
Yeah definitely especially if i came with other work experience - probs wouldve been more grateful for certain things too
@@TheBryanJun how old were you when you got into banking? Do you think you can still enter maybe a boutique IB?
I got shat on hard to n 2007-2008 in investment banking. Can’t be bothered to tell the story now.
If you don't like being told to change to and from Oxford commas, imagine working in a publishing house where you'd be paid about 1/5 to do the same haha
lmfao
How can calendar invites not be done perfectly?
honestly I remember I first saw this video and I thought you were weak and needed to suck it up. I’m an Analyst 3 at a well known IB and honestly I’m so fucking over this industry. The money is not worth the berating and the emotional abuse and there are better ways to make money. What you said about hierarchy and not talking back really hits home - I was literally told that it was a dictatorship and that I needed to shut up. It’s honestly horrible lol and I would never recommend to anyone unless you really want the experience or you have nerves of steel that can take constant and endless berating over the smallest of mistakes; being blamed for mistakes of associate and senior bankers because you didn’t double check (????); the expectation to dedicate your entire life to the job and if you don’t, you get criticized for expecting work life balance as a junior banker… to any young and aspirational men and women considering IB as a career, if you’re smart enough to get into prestigious investment bank, you’re probably smart enough to get a job anywhere. I literally get therapy now because of this job. Value your mental health lol
I work in m&a (4th year now) and am in my 2nd boutique right now and I can attest just how much the core senior team in a house would change your experience. First house, pathetic, unbalanced senior people who would do the exact same things described in the video every single week. Deeply dumb and limited really in terms of managing people, but all deliberate of course so junior team would “toughen up” and be trained like they were
Second house, much more actual and meaningful\pointful work, seniors wont ask for obviously unnecessary tasks and will be transparent on deadlines. Couldnt experience it better. Detail, senior team a thousand times more accomplished in the BB IB scene prior to founding the boutique than in the 1st one
My 100% honest pov is senior\mid level people frequently (I mean really frequently) want to justify the fact that they make so much money from little actual work (I mean it is IB common it doesnt take Harvard graduates to run a pitiful dcf no one will care about and ultimately compare multiples. It does take senior people’s relstionships and brand name so they will source better deals any house would run the same way - pinch of salt Im exagersting a bit but truth is the business’ core is about sourcing, not work volume. I would honestly argue if you took IB’s actual work only it wouldnt rank in the top half of more voluminous jobs. The rest is fetish really) by at least having / making day to day life painful (we dont charge hours - thst would be the case for lawyers). And also because they ve done it back when it was their turn so it is like that acritic dumb dude’s frat-like routine
I also like many of you was fortunate enough to, for ex, have gone to good schools and to have met some of the real deal people out there in actual tough fields for which you actually have to put in meaningful work. Which only makes average self-important IB market dudes look all the more unimpressive to me
I 1000% agree
If u arent willing to do the small things like writing stuff properly (i.e. oxford commas, fonts, etc.) then what makes higher ups think that you have the due dilligence to do the big things properly.
yes