Thank you! Rendering can sometimes be recovered through careful color grading, but there’s no ignoring the fact that a straight conformance looks better when there is more data to sample from.
Kinda bums me out that Sony isn’t supporting the 16 bit linear RAW on the FX line. My FS700 and F55 BOTH shoot 16 bit RAW. Hell my F55 can shoot X-OCN. Maybe there will be some NAB news coming. I do love the look of FX line. Great video, keep up the good work!
For what it’s worth, the output is 16-bit on the FX3. It’s the ProRes codec which captures at a compressed 12-bit. I’m not sure there is quality being lost, but I’d like to evaluate further to be certain. Nevertheless, this is one of the cheapest cinema grade RAW rigs, so that’s cool.
Thanks for the thorough and intellectual breakdown. I believe the 12 bit RAW is worth it if you're shooting any premium content like a short film or music video.
I'd agree, it's worth it for that high-end work where you really need that extra flexibility. I’m curious to see if it enhances my film emulation when converting for 709 as well. More follow ups to come. Thanks for watching!
Why they are looking different on 8 bit 422 rec709 youtube video, if you didn’t applied colorgrading? What is your colorgrading pipeline and which colorspace you used as intermediate? Did you used ACES? Your video is quite interesting, but it inspired more questions, than gave me the answers;)
It’s the additional color data being conformed to a Rec 709 rendering space. ACES is more useful if you’re matching multiple cameras as part of an overall color management workflow, these where straight out of the same camera with only the codec (and recording color space) being different. In an HDR space, both expand to look similar. In this case though, the extra values were collapsed into the 709 rendering. Just so you’re aware, TH-cam uses 420 subsampling, too, not 422.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of color space and bitdepth. What's different between both these takes is that the internal video has the "sony" image processing applied and the raw skipped all that and gave that control to mr secretfader. He can do whatever he likes to the image since it's just bater data. The problem with the internal is that it's been processed already. You're now basically trying to do better or undo what the image processing did. It also has twice the color resolution (444 instead of 422) it's decoded back to 16bit linear from the atomos 12bit log, which is in itself a big change causing the much richer tonal range. So basically when it comes to raw, you only go with it when you want full control of the image. You now have to tweak the colors, the wb, the exposure, the sharpening and especially the noise reduction. But if you want a quick turnaround or a simple flow where you do not push the image or have to do all that extra stuff, go with internal. You even skip the color correction in editing by adjusting the saturation, black level, color phase and even depth from the picture profile menu for a "fully corrected" image to your liking. This turned into a whole essay 💀
Hi Nicholas, first of all I want to say your videos are gorgeous! I love the way you are shooting your subjects. I am actually on the fence whether to try ProRes RAW. With XAVC S-I, I felt honestly that I get better results just by using picture profile 10 (HLG) and foregoing log recording, because my grading just came out wrong if I tried to do anything more than REC709 conversion, and then it's pointless, I can just do it in camera. I am aware I'm not a professional colorist, but I am planning on a solo project.
Thanks! I’m still developing my style, so I hope you’ll stay tuned. I’d say the main reason at this point for shooting in RAW or an in-camera log profile would be for future post production scenarios. HDR standards are still developing, and it’s a question of how long you hope the project will go before it looks or sounds behind current trends. Now though, in camera colors look really good: so you do need to less tweaking for fast deliveries (especially for web). Maybe look up the Atomos support for RAW, rent a Ninja for a day and see what difference it makes. There’s no replacement for research.
Have tried Prores a few times and I like it, but well it just so much easier to record internally when you're running around with the camera. But I really should do more Prores RAW. What do you use to add sharpening and to make the image less noisy if you shoot with high ISO?
You’ll need to tune noise reduction in your editor, but I also try to minimize it in camera by using the base ISOs. So far, if the FX3’s 12800 can’t handle it, the scene is just dark, and that’s how I let it be.
No, in fact, the Raw footage is rarely on the left. I swap them so you don’t expect one image, and fall prey to the placebo effect. The point here isn’t for me to tell you, but to visually (and with video scopes) help you determine whether the additional workload is worth it for you.
Any advice on shooting in All-I 400mbs in camera or even just prores 422 or prores hq on a ninja? Is there something to gain using that those codecs? I like raw and the flexibility but man it’s tedious to work with in post. Having to individually set white balance and ISO per clip and then having to reduce noise. It drags lol
You’ll get the best in camera performance with the ALL-I codec in most cases. Unless it’s a feature I’m proud of, I usually shoot the Sony 10-Bit equivalent. If you have an older edit system, ProRes will be worth the capture size; but you might not gain a lot in other arenas outside of playback and scrubbing.
Good question. In nominal scenes, you can; but careful attention must be paid that it doesn’t look overdone. More color often equals a better tonal balance, so by working in raw, there is much more to draw from in the original signal. The same can’t be said for scenes with high contrast, those fall down more quickly.
I read that 30 minutes in prores raw are approxatimely 900 GB memory space. What about Black magic Raw? Is the files size are the same? I have a sony A7siii and want to shoot in raw, but the files size scary me. How do you manage (like the storage ecc.) this amount of gigabyte ?
@@giacomoerba3293 I don’t have any Blackmagic cameras, so I don’t know about BRAW, but that’s roughly correct for ProRes RAW. I only shoot in RAW for specific projects, so I don’t have to manage the larger files for everything.
@@secretfader last question about prores raw, in terms of dual iso and dynamic range i can choose every iso number i want without loosing dynamic range (I will reduce noise in post). The rule of 640 and 12800 dual iso of slog 3 isn't in action in prores raw and I can choose 2000 iso like 3200, like 6400 and so on as i prefer and than reduce the amount of noise in post but without reducing my dynamic range. Do you think is this correct? Or i'm totally wrong?
@@giacomoerba3293 For Sony cameras, you won’t lose stops of range, but you are playing with gain off the normal ISO bases. I always use Base ISO and adjust in post; but my vibe is a darker scene with less noise, so your needs may vary.
HI Brother, If you love to shoot prores raw and prores raw hq please don't update the new firmware 3.0 I made a mistake by updating the new firmware to my Sony A7s3 and now I am not able to shoot prores raw hq with my Atomos ninja v more than 30 seconds...The camera now outputs DCI 4k to Atomos and I think there is some compatibility issue. Maybe soon Atomos will rectify this with new firmware. But you can record in prores raw compression. and it captures smoothly. As I always use prores raw h q. I am totally disappointed with the new firmware from Sony. Another thing is that if we choose xavcs I in the camera to shoot 23.976 fps , it automatically turns the frame rate to 59.9 fps when connected to Atomos ninja v...
Thanks for the heads up, though that was one of the first first things I did on my Ninja Ultra! I’ve had issues with less than ideal cables causing record issues though, so you might test that.
As do I. The Ninja adds quite a bit of bulk to my rig, but worth it when capturing important stories. I’m following up with a guide in grading for SDR and HDR. Thanks for watching and stay tuned for more.
Nicely explained! 10bit looks nice until you see something better haha! After using 12bit raw for a while, I can never unsee it.🤦♂️
Thank you! Rendering can sometimes be recovered through careful color grading, but there’s no ignoring the fact that a straight conformance looks better when there is more data to sample from.
Kinda bums me out that Sony isn’t supporting the 16 bit linear RAW on the FX line. My FS700 and F55 BOTH shoot 16 bit RAW. Hell my F55 can shoot X-OCN. Maybe there will be some NAB news coming. I do love the look of FX line. Great video, keep up the good work!
For what it’s worth, the output is 16-bit on the FX3. It’s the ProRes codec which captures at a compressed 12-bit.
I’m not sure there is quality being lost, but I’d like to evaluate further to be certain. Nevertheless, this is one of the cheapest cinema grade RAW rigs, so that’s cool.
Love this video!!! Great job on this!
I appreciate you watching, and I hope you found it helpful!
Thanks for the thorough and intellectual breakdown. I believe the 12 bit RAW is worth it if you're shooting any premium content like a short film or music video.
I'd agree, it's worth it for that high-end work where you really need that extra flexibility.
I’m curious to see if it enhances my film emulation when converting for 709 as well. More follow ups to come. Thanks for watching!
Why they are looking different on 8 bit 422 rec709 youtube video, if you didn’t applied colorgrading? What is your colorgrading pipeline and which colorspace you used as intermediate? Did you used ACES? Your video is quite interesting, but it inspired more questions, than gave me the answers;)
It’s the additional color data being conformed to a Rec 709 rendering space. ACES is more useful if you’re matching multiple cameras as part of an overall color management workflow, these where straight out of the same camera with only the codec (and recording color space) being different.
In an HDR space, both expand to look similar. In this case though, the extra values were collapsed into the 709 rendering.
Just so you’re aware, TH-cam uses 420 subsampling, too, not 422.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of color space and bitdepth. What's different between both these takes is that the internal video has the "sony" image processing applied and the raw skipped all that and gave that control to mr secretfader. He can do whatever he likes to the image since it's just bater data.
The problem with the internal is that it's been processed already. You're now basically trying to do better or undo what the image processing did.
It also has twice the color resolution (444 instead of 422) it's decoded back to 16bit linear from the atomos 12bit log, which is in itself a big change causing the much richer tonal range.
So basically when it comes to raw, you only go with it when you want full control of the image. You now have to tweak the colors, the wb, the exposure, the sharpening and especially the noise reduction.
But if you want a quick turnaround or a simple flow where you do not push the image or have to do all that extra stuff, go with internal. You even skip the color correction in editing by adjusting the saturation, black level, color phase and even depth from the picture profile menu for a "fully corrected" image to your liking.
This turned into a whole essay 💀
Hi Nicholas, first of all I want to say your videos are gorgeous! I love the way you are shooting your subjects. I am actually on the fence whether to try ProRes RAW. With XAVC S-I, I felt honestly that I get better results just by using picture profile 10 (HLG) and foregoing log recording, because my grading just came out wrong if I tried to do anything more than REC709 conversion, and then it's pointless, I can just do it in camera. I am aware I'm not a professional colorist, but I am planning on a solo project.
Thanks! I’m still developing my style, so I hope you’ll stay tuned.
I’d say the main reason at this point for shooting in RAW or an in-camera log profile would be for future post production scenarios. HDR standards are still developing, and it’s a question of how long you hope the project will go before it looks or sounds behind current trends.
Now though, in camera colors look really good: so you do need to less tweaking for fast deliveries (especially for web).
Maybe look up the Atomos support for RAW, rent a Ninja for a day and see what difference it makes. There’s no replacement for research.
Have tried Prores a few times and I like it, but well it just so much easier to record internally when you're running around with the camera. But I really should do more Prores RAW. What do you use to add sharpening and to make the image less noisy if you shoot with high ISO?
You’ll need to tune noise reduction in your editor, but I also try to minimize it in camera by using the base ISOs. So far, if the FX3’s 12800 can’t handle it, the scene is just dark, and that’s how I let it be.
Is ProRes RAW always on the right or do you swap these files around? You didn't sign them and I don't understand.
No, in fact, the Raw footage is rarely on the left. I swap them so you don’t expect one image, and fall prey to the placebo effect.
The point here isn’t for me to tell you, but to visually (and with video scopes) help you determine whether the additional workload is worth it for you.
@@secretfader But if you just add saturation to a regular video, won’t it be the same?
Any advice on shooting in All-I 400mbs in camera or even just prores 422 or prores hq on a ninja? Is there something to gain using that those codecs? I like raw and the flexibility but man it’s tedious to work with in post. Having to individually set white balance and ISO per clip and then having to reduce noise. It drags lol
You’ll get the best in camera performance with the ALL-I codec in most cases. Unless it’s a feature I’m proud of, I usually shoot the Sony 10-Bit equivalent.
If you have an older edit system, ProRes will be worth the capture size; but you might not gain a lot in other arenas outside of playback and scrubbing.
So, what happens if you just add some saturation in post, how different would they look side by side then?
Good question. In nominal scenes, you can; but careful attention must be paid that it doesn’t look overdone. More color often equals a better tonal balance, so by working in raw, there is much more to draw from in the original signal.
The same can’t be said for scenes with high contrast, those fall down more quickly.
I read that 30 minutes in prores raw are approxatimely 900 GB memory space. What about Black magic Raw? Is the files size are the same? I have a sony A7siii and want to shoot in raw, but the files size scary me. How do you manage (like the storage ecc.) this amount of gigabyte ?
@@giacomoerba3293 I don’t have any Blackmagic cameras, so I don’t know about BRAW, but that’s roughly correct for ProRes RAW. I only shoot in RAW for specific projects, so I don’t have to manage the larger files for everything.
@@secretfader last question about prores raw, in terms of dual iso and dynamic range i can choose every iso number i want without loosing dynamic range (I will reduce noise in post). The rule of 640 and 12800 dual iso of slog 3 isn't in action in prores raw and I can choose 2000 iso like 3200, like 6400 and so on as i prefer and than reduce the amount of noise in post but without reducing my dynamic range. Do you think is this correct? Or i'm totally wrong?
@@giacomoerba3293 For Sony cameras, you won’t lose stops of range, but you are playing with gain off the normal ISO bases. I always use Base ISO and adjust in post; but my vibe is a darker scene with less noise, so your needs may vary.
HI Brother, If you love to shoot prores raw and prores raw hq please don't update the new firmware 3.0 I made a mistake by updating the new firmware to my Sony A7s3 and now I am not able to shoot prores raw hq with my Atomos ninja v more than 30 seconds...The camera now outputs DCI 4k to Atomos and I think there is some compatibility issue. Maybe soon Atomos will rectify this with new firmware. But you can record in prores raw compression. and it captures smoothly. As I always use prores raw h q. I am totally disappointed with the new firmware from Sony. Another thing is that if we choose xavcs I in the camera to shoot 23.976 fps , it automatically turns the frame rate to 59.9 fps when connected to Atomos ninja v...
Thanks for the heads up, though that was one of the first first things I did on my Ninja Ultra! I’ve had issues with less than ideal cables causing record issues though, so you might test that.
@@secretfader YOu are right. Will change the HDMI cable "
Everyone is asking "Why Prores RAW," but no one is asking how is "Prores RAW."
What would you like to know? File size comparisons, tools to capture, or something else entirely? I’d love to hear so I can answer accordingly.
I’ll do you one better, WHO is ProRes RAW?
I love ProRes raw…
As do I. The Ninja adds quite a bit of bulk to my rig, but worth it when capturing important stories.
I’m following up with a guide in grading for SDR and HDR. Thanks for watching and stay tuned for more.