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Sony A7siii Codec Comparison | Prores Raw vs. XAVC SI & XAVC S
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ส.ค. 2024
- This video is a deep dive into the Sony a7siii's codecs. I take a look at ProRes Raw and compare it some of the a7siii's internal codecs. ProRes Raw is a fantastic codec that you can record when you pair the a7siii with an Atomos Ninja V, so I was excited to see how it would compare to some of the other codecs. The results definitely surprised me!
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Not many youtubers are educating us on this.. Thank You!!
Of course!
I use ProRes RAW on my Panasonic S1 for most things. It’s definitely helpful for real estate videos that have a lot of mixed lighting. That gives me the option to correct things in post without introducing artifacts or other unwanted issues. Great video man!
Thanks Glen! Yeah I bet you have to deal with a lot of mixed lighting in real estate.
Hey Glen. I shoot real estate on an fx3 and I just could never get pro res or pro res raw sharp enough. It always had weird artifacts and noise. Even with neat video rendering for 65 days(😂 obviously kidding) it just never got to a place where I was happy with the sharpness. Do you have any pointers?
@@adamleatherbarrow4229 there is a difference between sharpness and perceived sharpness, sometimes by adding a bit of contrast, lowering the black point or a combination of the two can add perceived sharpness. I don’t shoot on Sony but from what I’ve seen they have a fairly contrasty image from the internal codec and ProRes tends to have a bit less contrast possibly making it seem less sharp. Give it another try! Hopefully this helps get the image where you like it.
Great comparison. I stopped using pro res raw because of its massive files. I was using Xavc S on my sony a7iv for awhile but I did some comparisons myself and can see that the pro res is definitely worth it.
Great vid, thx! A note on the XAVC HS format. The new Apple laptops with in-house M1 processors can actually handle these H265 well. Compared to my Intel Macbook pro from 2019, the difference is not small but huge. So worth taking into account.
That’s what I’ve heard! I’m hoping the new processors make their way into the iMacs or MBPs soon!
Also, any PC, even cheap and years old can handle it easily.
A BlackMagic Video Assistant 7" 12G monitor recording to ProRes has been a remarkable improvement over internal Sony recording in 100Mbps XAVC-S. Getting ultra-pure balanced audio in the ProRes video up front has also been a huge improvement.
Would love to see a video like this one compare working with different CODECs in Resolve Studio. After making the change from Premier to Resolve Studio, most editing tasks seem easier, none of the CODEC problems that has plagued Premier for both H.265 and ProRes. Only XAVC-S and H.264 always worked in Premier.
@RileyEndicott Your explanation is really good. Other TH-camrs just favoured one or the other codec based on their personal preference. A person educating shouldn't give statements and instead explain the true reason behind what they are saying which is nicely done in your video. Thank you for explaining the differences between these codecs and then sharing your personal preference. Just a suggestion, it'd be more helpful for us if you could share a link for the unedited footage in the description which is not part of any of your project. This will help some of us in editing and testing the files ourselves for better understanding, as the TH-cam's compression adds some arifacts and banding to the uploaded video.
cool video bro, but next time, upload it in 4k. we can't see anything in 1080p :D
90% of comments under such videos: "yeah shooting RAW is so nice it really helps with capturing the perfect image"
And then you look at what that person has filmed with his 6000$ gear and it usually is some crap like a shaky VLog or a badly graded music video with shitty lighting.
the first comparison on Sony codec that does not limit itself to showing the footage. it is clear that file sizes affect post production, freedom in color correction, and not how you see the native image.
Hmmm so hard to choose, Some ppl say SI, but now i read quite some topics where HS has less macroblocking then both S, and SI, and they say it's because S/SI are H264, while HS is 265. My schooting will be walking around in mountains and panning, zooming. Sony A7RV.
I have the Ninja V+ and A7Siii the ProRes raw is definitely the best best by far. But when I’m doing run and gun or just for fun content I shoot for the All Intra in S Cinetone. I used the HS codec for a music video shoot biggest mistake ever lol 😆
Sounds like a good workflow!
I have done 2 short films using ProRes raw and definitely it’s pain in few ways and low light but gave organic looks whenever my exposure was right.
Just learning the a7Siii now. My Mac with OS Big Sur did not work. Went to my Alienware Aurora R7 w 32 gb and the 1070 gpu. I rendered my first XAVC S-I at 150 mbps with only a one minute clip and it was a little over 1 gb. So, 1 minute = 1 gb approx. Tonight shooting night video of skyscrapers downtown Waikiki. Am excited. Huge learning curve for me. Thanks for the help!
Of course! Good luck filming!
Love the Yosemite B-roll. Any secret filming spots to share? We’re going back in 2023.
Thanks! Glacier point is probably my favorite spot!
awesome review man. very useful and informative info!
Thanks David!
I’m A7S III shooter and just ordered Ninja V+
We needed this !!!!!✌️
Happy to help!! 😁
It makes sense. Prores Raw is rawish, but xavc s is H264.
Great video. Very clear and helpful.
Thanks!
Thank you, Riley! Really helpful. In came to take a look at this vid as I'm in the midst of a feature doc. We've been shooting Prores Raw on the Ninja V with the A7siii, and I want to do a little bit of high speed work. The ninja V won't do 120fps. I'm out on location without access to CF express cards so I'm limited to the Anglebird SD 280mb write 300 read v90. It's still not fast enough to shoot the S-i codec so I guess the takeaway is to go with the 'S'. Wondering also if you've had a chance to do any projection tests with graded ProRes Raw footage. Looking forward to that opportunity. As we intend this film to be released first in theaters I feel very confident about the decision to go with ProRes Raw and make use of those extra 2 bits!
Great video! Excited to see that RAW myself too :)
Thanks!
thanks, but why posted in 1080 ?
I agree with yo about what you said at the end of the video .
Thanks Eric!
Love your stuff man
Thanks Jake!!
Great vid! Got yourself a new sub!
Thanks Rodney!!
Awesome video! I assume your SI/S recordings were all 4:2:2? I'd be curious to see another comparison with 4:2:0 versions too, which I've heard edit even easier on a lot of laptops
Yea everything was 4:2:2. I think 10 vs 12 bit definitely makes a bigger difference than 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0.
Nices. Ehy bro do you use prores or prores Raw? . And how you edit thoses file? do you edit directly from ninja 5 ssd or you import thoses file to ur compuer then to premier? Also do you recomen 550gb or 1tb ssd ninja 5 i would like to use the prores to shot video clips
Prores raw usually. I always edit off of a different SSD.
Which has the bigger file size between ProRes Raw and XVAC SI? And how do other internal codes compare in terms of quality, size, and editing compared to non raw Prores? Trying to see if it's worth shooting all my video in Prores of one form or another.
dostum merhaba , harika bir içerik hazırlamışsın çok teşekkürler ancak böyle detayların izlenmesi gereken bir videoyu neden 1080p olarak yükledin veya hazırladın, gerçekten şuan Prores Raw ve XAVC SI kodek arasında hiç bir fark gösteremiyorsun . I wrote the comment in Turkish, you can translate it if you wish
Great Vid!
Thank you!!
Great info as always Riley. What are your thoughts on shooting just Prores 422? I think thats what i might do for efficiency, at the expense of a mid sized file size. Also, how have you determined how much recording time you have left on the atomos? I've read it isnt accurate like an internal SD card would be. Thanks!
Thanks Nick! That’s definitely an option especially if you have a lot of SSDs lying around and don’t want to buy the pricy V90 SD cards. The ninja V can’t do 4K 120p so shooting standard prores isn’t something I do often for that reason.
Yeah it’s inaccurate. You get about 3x more record time than what is listed. I think it is bc prores raw is a variable bit rate codec and what is displayed is the absolute minimum time you would get. In reality you almost always get 3x times more. It’s a bit frustrating that Atomos can’t get it closer.
@@RileyEndicott That’s my only caviate with the ninja too is not getting that 4k 120. If you’re hooked up to the ninja v and recording externally do you have to go into the a7siii settings and turn off the recording output in order to record internally again to get the 4k 120? Or is there an option to easily toggle between the two?
@@NickSavino If you’re recording in prores raw you definitely need to disable the raw settings in the menus each time. I would imagine it would slow you down for standard prores as well since you would need to disable the record trigger, etc. but I haven’t done extensive testing in standard prores with 120p to know how exactly this works.
Would recommend avoiding using ProRes any lower quality than HQ.
Search "AVCHD better than Prores?" on TH-cam to see why.
I really thought i'd use the RAW image until i found out it bypasses the internal stabilizer in the Sony A7sIII. Pretty bummed about that because trying to not have to use a gimble. I'm really enjoying your channel i have the same setup. Thanks.
Good thing the internal codecs are so good :)
You can always use stabilized lenses to compensate
Great video!
Thank you!
Is anyone missing the 30fps shooting option in XAVC-HS? I'm on the current firmware (2.0) and am worried that it didn't upload correctly to the camera.
Great breakdown. I’m mulling the ninja v bc I know the value in shooting raw, but I edit in Davinci and don’t know how difficult that would make things (I’ve read they’re not compatible). Regardless, I appreciate this info greatly! I’ll sub now, too. Keep up the great work!
Yeah they aren't compatible unfortunately. You would need to use another software to transcode it to prores 4444 to keep the benefit of 12 bit in tact. My recommendation would be to rent it and play around with Final Cut or the transcoding workflow in Davinci.
Just get a Blackmagic camera, you'll get better image quality than ProRes on any Sony and it'll be cheaper.
I've got both Sony and BMD cams and only use the Sony for stills or if I need AF in video.
There's a new ProRes Converter app in the apple store that takes Sony ProRes and convert's it to cDNG which is a raw Codec that works within Davinci Resolve. Now you take use ProRes within Davinci Resolve. The app is called "Raw Converter" is has a free trial. By Nikolaj Pognerebko. TH-cam search the creators name to have him explain in better detail.
@@Diminish12 thanks for the info! This is awesome and much appreciated.
Hi can you make a Hdr workflow in FCP, it would be of great help
Just want to know which editing machine are you using?
Great video and a new subscriber. There is one thing I am not understanding though. I record XAVC on my Sony camera... when I pull it into FCPX it transcodes to ProRes, not a big deal, so at that point the XAVC has gone hasn’t it? I keep hearing people saying ProRes edits much easier... but my edits are often fairly slow and buggy and this is on a reasonably well specced 5K iMac 2015... my confusion is once I have transcoded to ProRes from XAVC is that in effect not the same as editing with footage recorded directly in ProRes on something like a Ninja V and then bought in to FCPX without transcoding?
Thanks John! I'm assuming that you are filming in 4K and creating optimized media and not proxies? Either way, recording prores to a ninja V is going to generate a slightly (and possibly indistinguishable in many cases) better image just because it is less compressed than XAVC S. The editing speed & performance should be exactly the same since both are prores. My advice would be to make sure background render is turned on and to transcode lower resolution proxies instead of optimized media. A 2015 iMac, even a well specced one, might have a hard time keeping up with 4k files. The timeline performance won't improve much if you generate optimized media since your iMac is probably struggling to process the larger files. You also aren't gaining any image advantages for generating optimized media since you are starting with something more compressed than prores. A good proxy workflow will probably solve a lot of the issues you've experienced :)
but.....but why no 4k upload
Haha I have no clue 🤷♂️🙃 I must’ve used the wrong export preset. Very ironic considering the video is basically about maximizing image quality 😂🤦♂️
Which documentary you working on now?
thank you
Hi Riley ! Great video.
I was wondering what picture profile you're using when recording with your camera ? Where do you find the luts that goes along with this profile ? And the Log to Raw conversion ?
Thanks in advance,
Just ordered my Atomos Ninja V and using the Sony A7iii :)
Hey thanks!
I’m using SLog 3 + SGamut3.cine. When you record raw (with the a7siii specifically) that’s your only option. For the a7iii I would recommend using SLog2 or another profile since it’s max is 8bit.
Personally I’m a big fan of James Miller’s DELUTs or Alister Chapman’s LUTs. Filmconvert also supports a lot of different type of cameras too.
If you record Prores Raw you will need to convert it to SLog3 in either FCPX or premiere. Without that step you’ll have a hard time working with the footage since raw is technically HDR and your monitor is most likely SDR. Converting it to log allows you to view all of the information. I have a “prores raw post production workflow” video on my channel that explains this whole process.
Hopefully that helps!
@@RileyEndicott Thank you so much !
@@RileyEndicott Just to be sure to understand, when recording Pro Res Raw, to have more flexibility, should I use a picture profile on my sony A7iii ? Because in your video, after converting your footage to Log. Your images look pretty flat.
To summarize, when recording Pro Res raw on my Sony A7iii, I should set my picture profile to Slog2 and find the log to raw conversion file ?
Thank you for you time,
@@liviohans9261 Do you have an a7iii or an a7siii? The a7iii does not record raw. The a7siii does record raw to a ninja v.
@@RileyEndicott A7iii unfortunately ...
Great Video man! Do you have to de-noise in pro res raw? If so, what do you use?
It’s completely up to your preference. I don’t think it’s necessary on every shot but it will be necessary more often than internal footage. I typically use near video.
@@RileyEndicott Thanks for the reply man. Great channel.
Which format was this filmed in?
How was playback between prores and XAVC-I? Prores significantly smoother?
I think pro res is still a bit smoother. Not significantly but enough for me to notice.
thx bro for good info
Of course!
Hey very nice to learn more, thanks! I am wondering which it the best export chose in FCPX when shooting 600M 4:4:2 10bit (to keep as Master file for future editing)? I believe it must be Apple ProRes HQ?? What will happen it I export in 4444 or 4444 XQ?
I think you are right about ProRes HQ being the best way to go about it. You are already recording in 422 so exporting in 4444 isn't adding any information.
@@RileyEndicott Thanks to reply! I am still a bit confused because Apple says that the Target Data Rates for 4K60p for ProRes 442 HQ is 848Mb/s. If am able to only get 600Mb/s with my cam (A7IV) I am only reaching ProRes 442 (not HQ) which requires 566Mb/s for 4K60P. There is any benefit to export in HQ in my case?
600/Mbs is a compressed data rate. When you decompress to ProRes HQ, your 600Mbs will increase. By how much, I am not sure, but it is reasonable to believe that it will be near 800Mbs.
How come I Only see or can change the iso range of the a7s3 ProRes RAW footage between ISO 50 - 25600..?
Do you need to shoot at a certain iso from the start before being able to change the iso higher in FCP..?
That’s the only available ISO range. I don’t think you have access to the higher ISOs in raw.
@@RileyEndicott Thanks for the reply.
I guess 50-25600 is a range most people use.. so they probably decided it that way
Would still love for the ISO Range to be extended for ''post use in the future..
..it should be possible..
Thankfully I'm still able to shoot at those higher ISO's in RAW.. (getting the most out of the a7s3).
So I'm happy with that.
But I guess If I need to tweak a bit more or a bit less exposure afterwards in Post, instead of using the 'post ISO controls' I'll have to work with grading the footage a bit more the 'standard way...
@@RaymondKPhotoVideography Yeah I think your right. At a certain point ISO is just adding gain anyways. So if you’re above 25600 there might not be a perceptible difference between changing the ISO and changing the exposure slider. But I agree having the option to change ISO would be appreciated especially when we need to make a precise adjustment like adding 1 stop, etc.
I think the File size is pretty important, can you compare file sizes between the same resolution, framerate, and length clips?
Thats a little tricky to get an exact. PRR is a variable bitrate and it will impact the file size based on what you are filming and how it is exposed, etc.
@@RileyEndicott ooh okay, would you say around 2x or 5x times larger?
I wanna make de decision if I should purchase the cards but I don't think it's worth it if they gonna fill up in less than 1 day
@@alejandrocampollo Pro Res Raw is roughly 3x larger than 4K XAVS. But SSD’s are also much cheaper than V90 SD cards. So your biggest cost is going to be in hard drives to edit or archive since the memory cards/SSD cost is somewhat of a wash.
thanks man..alot of information.!, need more subs..
hey dude, loved this. I'm a filmmaker living in Uganda. Do a lot of work for ministries here!
Question, something I noticed and wonder if you have seen or if not, do a test? When I record on my atomos ninja v in 640 and 12800, i see way more noise in 12800. But the file internal doesn't show that. I know that in camera is doing the noise reduction but didn't expect to see so much more noise on the ninja with the two iso levels. I have to stay at 640 now I think when recording when before I was using both iso's.
Thanks Bob! That's very cool!
Yeah 12,800 is definitely noisier than expected in raw. I've found its still fairly clean compared to a lot of the other ISO values though. I've just had to learn to leave enough time to denoise those shots.
As a newbi I got it in first 5 mins! Xavc si is no good, prores raw / other raw is robust. I had a Sony a7s ii which was basic xavc 8bit no wonder I wasted almost 6mm tha trying to get the flexibility shown in raw or anything like it but failed….
For video minimum 10bit all 8bit shooters expect to nail it in camera
So do you think prores raw is worth it?
In situations where a raw workflow or the extra color information makes sense, then definitely.
thank u
Great vid, but 1080p though?
It was uploaded in 4k. Not sure why it isn't showing up on your end.
@@RileyEndicott Weird, it keeps showing 1080
awesome explanation and info man, raw is not for me, im happy with xavcs
Thanks! Definitely can’t go wrong with that!
Xavc and slog they both are same ?
Xavc is the codec (format the file is recorded in) and Slog is the gamma curve (picture profile). So they are different and can be used together :)
@@RileyEndicott thank u
Hi Riley, I want to know if raw footage is easier to edit compare to xavc s-I or xavc s. And are you using ssd on your computer to edit video? Or just normal hard disk?
In my experience prores raw is noticeably easier to edit than all of the internal codecs. The difference is most notable between PRR and xavcs. It’s less noticeable with xavc si but still there. I’m typically editing off of an external SSD.
@@RileyEndicott thanks for your reply Riley! I’m asking this because I can see my computer is having a bit of hard time with xavc s 10bit log footage, I do cooking videos and very often I have to record for up to 30sec or more when I’m cooking, and all my footage usually goes up to one and a half hour with xavc s. That’s why I’m worry about shooting in raw, cos I’m using an external 2TB ssd.
Anymore suggest for me if i shoot in raw? Will help a lot😂
@@hkjerry Gotcha! You could record externally to prores LT. That would would give you similar editing performance and save on some space. Alternatively you could just keep recording in xavcs and transcode proxies to edit off of. It’ll take up more space during your edit but once you’re done with a project you can delete the proxies and gain the space back. Raw definitely isn’t your only option and it might not necessarily be the best option either.
@@RileyEndicott thanks man! Let me try prores raw and see how lt go first. Filming cost so much 😭! Lol
@@RileyEndicott love your video, I found you cos of a7siii raw, make more content about it! Gain more subscribers
The problem with both of these codecs is that they don't play well with resolve, the best grading software and a heck of a good NLE, which is free.
So, braw is the best codec.
Because Davinci doesnt have the license from Apple to use ProRes. Braw is a good codec but its a form of RAW.
can u do avc s vs avc si
You need an upgrade to the new m1 or m2 series macs. They can handle h.265 flawlessly.
I upgraded to the M1 recently 🙂
Can you record Xavcs prores without recording raw?
Like record it externally to the SSD, get a better image with prores and then it be easier on your computer
@@joepineirofilms you can record pro res externally without recording raw, yes.
Just want to know which editing machine are you using?
Just want to know which editing machine are you using?
I’m using a 2019 15 inch 8core i9 MBP
Hey Riley!
great and useful video!
I just want to start using a7siii internally, mostly 25fps 10bit, sometimes 50/100 fps.
I use a 16” i9 MCBP 16GB RAM. Can it handle the H264 50fps 10bit 422 in final cut pro?
And I don’t know, with my extrenal HDD LaCie will works well on these big file sizes because of the 100Mps speed.
In the other hand I have Sandsik Portable SSD 2TB, it seems to be better.
What’s your opinion?
Thanks