Hard not to be biased in this question and I'm definitely not a mechanic but I don't say the Indian may be the little better I don't know but we're also used to the way the Harley is that hard to go wrong with what you know something about you know
I really like the challenger motor. But, I want one fully dressed like an ultra limited…. Crazy expensive to option a challenger out like that… HD needs to put that new sportster motor on a touring frame… I want a water cooled v twin…
I'm a Harley guy also, and always will be. Harley has a consistent evolution of the brand since 1903. I love the heritage that comes with the motorcycle. Indians heritage ended in the 50's and the Indian motorcycles you see today are an engineers rendition of what they thought the brand would evolve into if the company continued building bikes. Polaris bet on name recognition when they bought Indian and it was a good move on their part. Now having said that. They make a great looking solid motorcycle, I just wish they would have stayed with the Victory name creating their own heritage and not claiming someone else's. Great video as always Gixxerfoo 🤘😎🤘
Thank you I appreciate it! Very well said, it always bothers me when Gary Gray who is over Indians racing program talks about the brand being around since 1901 etc and how they this and they that. I have the same feeling about it that they went out in 1953 and today it's a revived name with a "this is what we feel it would of evolved into". You're absolutely correct they hedged their bets on the name and Victory should of been able to create it's own legacy.
Victory, they should have kept! (They would have canceled it anyway in 2020 , due to….😷 ) But Indian …. Should have been their stand alone brand! What they have done with it is amazing - something that no one ( oh , so many tries) was able to achieve .
I have a fondness for all bikes, but I am in love with my Harley. I almost bought an Indian Scout but chose a 2020 Breakout 114. After pipes, a heavy breather intake, a Wood Knight Prowler 22x cam and a tune, she makes more than enough power. Some might call her pushrod engine antiquated technology, but you cannot replicate that sound or wipe the smile off of my face when I wake her up. Harleys cost so much because you're paying for the soul that comes with them. Ride what makes you happy. For me, heaven on earth is sitting atop rolling thunder at 80mph or whenever I pull next to a car with kids in it, watch them press their faces to the windows and stare at my bike and remember when I was that kid. There isn't a feeling like it in the world.
Very well said! You have a Breakout 114 with with a Wood 22X? I imagine that bike is a rocket with that cam in there, that's about the baddest bold in cam out there anywhere.
I'm a Harley guy also but you have to give props to Indian for the mere fact that they keep Harley on their toes. Harley was too complacent for a while basically being the only game in town. Always enjoy your vids!!
Thank you, I appreciate it! Indian gave Harley some real competition, Victory didn't threaten Harley like Indian has. The Twin Cam ran for years just basically since it didn't have any real competition.
When Indian showed up to King of the Baggers with bone Stock Challengers and thrashed the SGs with the $100K S&S modified HD engines….that’s all you needed to know. Indian will be releasing a Chieftain with that same 108 in 2022. They don’t have heat issues, rear cylinder issues, pressed crank problems, the need for a catch can, etc. Its an easy choice.
They build a solid bike for sure, yeah in King of the Baggers they had that Screamin Eagle 131R engine built specifically for that class. Thing is like 160 horse and torque, stupid expensive compared to the challenger engine which doesn't need much.
Great video, as always. I'm on my 3rd Harley, a Road Glide Special. Love the bike, it has the 114. All I've done for the performance (ok, really just the sound) is Reinhart DBX slip ons and a tune. 2 things about the 114. 1) I can't believe the power it has. I didn't buy it for racing, just touring, but you roll on it and she just goes. Passing is no problem. 2) I just did a trip through the U.P. in Michigan over to the twin cities. Stayed off the freeway the whole trip and was getting 48.5 to 49.5 mpg. On an 853lb bike. Holy cow. That's great. So I guess if I couldn't have a Harley then I'd look next at the Indian. But right now, totally happy with my hog.
First and foremost great video on the information on the two engines and manufactures. I own both but run my Indian a lot more. 1st the thunder stroke engine came out in 2013. The Milwaukee 8 2016. It was ( Indian) way ahead of its time! While Harley was still selling the 96 103,107,110. Right out of the bat you had more engine for your buck! I've had my Road King and have done more maintenance on it then my Indian. Yeah a bit more miles on my King than my Indian but still don't he to worry about something going wrong. Long story short. Bought my Indian with less then 2k miles on it and went 3200 miles in a week. 100 degree weather through desert. Didn't give up just kept going. Couldn't do that on a Harley ( my opinion ) with all the service dos and don'ts. But at the end of the day we all ride what we want. Wave to one another as we share a passion for the road! Hasta luego!
Thank you, I appreciate it! The Indian is a solid bike, I really feel it got Harley off their butt. The Twin Cam was really out of date and that new Thunderstroke engine pushed them over edge on getting a new motor out!
Funny you mention fit and finish. That's EXACTLY what keeps me coming back to Harley. There are other brands that are close (some BMWs, Triumph, Ducati are a few examples), but they are only 90% as good. My '21 Road King Special is a work of art!
Harley's really truly are a work of art, even people that hate Harleys will admit they are good looking motorcycles. I can't recall anyone ever saying anything bad about the finish on a Harley.
My 2021 116 thunderstroke has made my harleys sit. The motor has incredible power and needs nothing for upgrades. My harleys have all needed 4k to get them to on par. I love all my bikes but the indian is hands down the superior bike at this time. Comfortable, powerful and very well done.
They are absolutely wonderful machines, the touring chassis is leaps and bounds above Harley. I am a Harley guy but damn like you said they need about 4K to get them where they need to be.
My biggest thing is part and dealer support. If you go on a cross country trip you can bet there’s someone nearby if you need work done or need help for your HD. Second, OEM and the aftermarket world is almost endless for HD. If you want something changed it can be done which isn’t something other brands can say.
@@antoniocampos6627 you're correct, but you won't need any parts or dealer support on an Indian going cross country, unlike a HD it will just keep running, straight past all the HD's on the side of the road in a puddle of there own oil. 😂
@@antoniocampos6627 not like Indian/Polaris dealers are rare dude. And if you base buying a bike on it being so unreliable as to need a dealer Network for a simple road trip... Damn lol. You can always get a Japanese bike and not have to worry about that.
@@TheAsheybabe89 who said anything about being unreliable? My brother bought his HD back in 2003 brand new and still rides it. He should hit 110k miles on it this summer. He mentioned that when he does cross country if he’s about to hit a service interval it’s nice to pull up an HD dealer and go there and they always took him in right away without having to wait because they’ll accommodate someone who’s on the road. Not many Indian/Polaris dealers will do that aside from maybe a select few. And I’ll never touch a Japanese bike. I know it’s to save weight but I feel like I’m driving some old dodge with how much plastic is on those bikes. Not to mention unless it’s similar to a Goldwing, it’s going to be a hard ride going from the east coast to the west coast. I know it’s possible but not for me and definitely not for the passenger who would come with me.
One thing that HD beats practically everyone on is parts and dealer support. If you need parts, OEM or aftermarket, they’re out there and readily available. As for dealer support there’s likely a dealer or someone at a shop who can work on your HD anywhere in the US which isn’t something other brands can say
I think competition is exactly what Harley needed. They got complacent which I think drove away a lot of potential business. Yeah there's a lot of tradition and heritage in the design of the Harley motors but Harley also has to remember not everybody wants to build their bike out of a screaming eagle catalog some of us want enough power to keep us happy right out of the gate. I like working on motors so building my tc88 is fun to me but I will admit I've been wanting a scout since about 2016. Love it or hate it Harley is about image, they stay with their engine platforms because it gives that Harley sound and they stay with the traditional Harley look, but the m8 proves you can do that while still making respectable power numbers from a stock motor. There's also something to be said for the fact Indian is getting the numbers that they are with a two valve head and just 9.5:1 compression. to me that says that the Indian has more to offer than what it shows stock but that also tells me that Harley probably could have made pretty similar numbers with a twin cam motor and still stayed EPA compliant. I think the biggest reason the M8 came out has to do with the fact if Harley released a twin cam that made the kind of power the M8 makes there would be a lot of people upset that Harley has been intentionally sandbagging their motors to push the screaming eagle line. This way it's less obvious. I do think that Indian is making some very good motorcycles right now and I think Harley is going to lose a lot of business to them if they don't make some serious changes on how they build bikes to push aftermarket parts.
Ive owned a Harley Sportster, Dyna, Nightrod and a Breakout. I didn't realise how junk they were until I bought an Indian Scout Bobber and rode my friends Chief Dark Horse. A Harley will never be part of my stable ever again
I bought a 2021 Sport Glide in August, and DANG that thing is an AWESOME ride!!! At the time I was flipping back & forth between HD & Indian comparable models. What I found, was options that came standard on Harleys had to be added on to Indians, driving their price of comparable platforms higher than the stock Harley comparable. With that being said, if I didn't get my Sport Glide, I most certainly would be almost as happy with an Indian Chief.
The Sport Glide inverted forks and stiffer frame does really handle & ride nice. Easy no tools to set the rear to your weight & ride preference too. I added the Bung King rear shock extender which raised the back of the bike an inch. It actually improved the geometry and the bike became more flickable and I no longer scrape a boot heel in deep twistes. With a 116 HP stage 3 now 114ci I really dig this bike. I liked the Chief Darkhorse 116ci Thunderstroke a lot, but made the right decision. Today I would do the 119ci stage 3 kit but swap for the SE 498 cam & springs. (Per Harley engineers original design ie the 11-1 pistons) And Harley’s new High performance softail exhaust for a great bang for the buck build and to retain full warranty.
I would love to hear ur thoughts and mechanical input on the savage 108 Power Plus in the Challenger vs what the Road Glides have to offer. I realize they are totally different animals, but...horse and torque numbers compared, air vs liquid cooling, compression differences...what makes the Power Plus such a beast ?. I dig the hell out of ur videos and truly appreciate ur knowledge and opinions, so keep it up 🤙
My first bike was a Polaris 2005 Victory Vegas. I really liked the bike. I wanted to keep it but after a few years of dealing with dwindling parts, really crappy OEM replacement parts, no Polaris customer service and hardly any shops that could or would work on it…I decided to look at Indian and Harley Davidson. Polaris left a sour taste for many Victory owners so I eventually went with HD. Two factors sent me to HD. First was my previous experience with Polaris, and second - I was interested in a touring bike. When I compared bikes in my price range, HD had many more options because they’ve been making touring bikes longer. There were more bikes and these bikes has more options. I couldn’t trust an early Roadmaster compared to a slightly older FLHTCUSE. The first Roadmasters under Polaris are from 2015. When comparing those early Roadmasters to Ultra’s I found the Harley to be a safer bet. HD has been on the road a heck of a lot longer historically speaking.
Victory was a strange deal, I noticed for one Victory ended up under an umbrella in multi brand "power sports" dealers rather than a single brand Victory dealer.
@@GixxerFoo right. I guess Polaris went with a sales model they already knew. Instead of building distinct dealerships with no history, they tried to build a new American V-Twin brand inside the ‘power sport’ market. Compared to Harley their marketing wasn’t even close. Marketing isn’t a mark of quality necessarily but it helps get the word out and keeps people buying t-shirts and leather jackets made in China.
I love to see the competitive spirit alive with Harley. Hope to see the revolutions on flat track and in the race leagues. They ran a few at the Bagger Racing League last week in tandem with the hooligan class and they did well.
I really wonder if they will switch motors for Flat Track, they put a lot of money into that Street engine to try and make it competitive. It does great in the production class but it just can't run with the Indians in the Super Twins. Harleys done really well with the Bagger class, that 131R engine is a monster, it makes like 165 horse and torque. That torque starts as soon as you let the clutch out.
Living in the past with V twins is shakey to me, my 1986 honda magna V4 is so smooth and reliable. Riding a Harley is like having a furnace between your legs literally, been riding since 15 now 72 I'd never by one! I also drive 1998 goldwing heat goes outside of cockpit area, much cooler many more benefits! You have to be tougher than me to ride a Harley.
Totally agree, I was out riding around town this week , and had two new Indian baggers pull up at the stop sign and I could not hear them at all and I didn't have my helmet on at the time , no rumble , no nothing . . I just don't like the look of Indian. Sure they have some more model tech but they are packaged in plastic covers over everything and just doesn't look very good .
I was a Harley owner for many yrs until I rode on an Indian scout and now I own an Indian Bike. they are very good motorcycles for handling and riding they can't be beaten.
You can't take anything away from the ride of the Indian, that touring chassis is superb. Harley needs to get their touring chassis updated to a mono shock design.
The main reason that the Milwaukee 8 engine was designed was to meet the EURO 4 standards. Four valves heads are much more efficient in burning fuel than a two-valve head. The new sytle single fire ignition fires each piston on top dead center and lets the engine burn fuel much better than a waste spark ignition that Harley has used for years. The new style throttle body which uses fuel injection is much more efficient than the CV carburetor that Harley used before the M8 engine.
That's very true and Harley knew Euro 5 was on the horizon, they would of rode that Twin Cam pony to the bitter end if they could. The Twin Cam was really running beyond it's limits when it came to how lean it was.
I'm an old school Harley guy. I don't know about the new stuff but prior to 1953 when the original Indian was still around..... They had a rear suspension in 1940. They had a wet clutch. They had a front suspension like the Hydra Glide. They only went under because they started importing/rebadged Brit bikes, and they wouldn't go to overhead valve. The New York City Police loved them so much they actually wrote the bid in 1956 for specs that only Indian could fill. They put enough enough bikes together to supply the bid, even though they were already out of business for three years.
You forgot to mention that Harley has survived mostly on their own except for AMF days, while Indian has been revived multiple times with completely new design and owners.
Harley has stood the test of time, it just bothers me the way Polaris talks about Indian. They talk like it never died, l mean own the revival of the brand. There's nothing to be ashamed of coming back, l mean Polaris couldn't of done it any better with design.
Man that street glide looked great . Do you ever think what Harley's original owners would approve or disapprove of on whats going on today . Would they have a parts list for all them old bikes . Would they bring the VROD back . I think about what they'd be thinking of what's going on now . I do think they'd really appreciate their loyal customers on all them bikes and cause of this they'd have parts and service on all them old Harley's
They for sure left a lasting legacy, I feel like though they would of wanted the best in the bikes today with the Screamin Eagle parts right out of the box. I don't think they ever could of imagined what Harley-Davidson would of become right out of a back yard shed.
I haven't ridden an Indian yet, but I rode a 2021 Road Glide Special and man is that bike smooth. It would be great having a one-piece crank assembly, but HD would probably have to compromise something else to get there. Remember too, HD isn't designing these bikes to last forever, they want you coming back buying another one every 3-5 years. LOL!
The Indian really are great bikes. I ended up buying an Indian FTR once Harley announced they were scrapping the street fighter. It's an extremely fun bike, but not in the traditional Harley cruiser sense.
Got a ‘19 trike M8-114 for my wife; 6’4” 250#. Built on a Wednesday. She loves it ... stage 2 but still wants the deep lope and sound.... Does the cat really smooth out exhaust thrust? Comming off anyway after warranty for excessive heat .
The cats are great for torque, but they do create a lot of heat and knock down the sound. The M8 has a good low idle at 850, but to really make them lope and thump it takes a good aftermarket cam. If you go with full exhaust that eliminates the cat with the stage 2, (assuming SE cam) you should get some more lope.
Great Vid Gixxer, I had considered purchasing and using a Jagg 4700 and running a small Ford power steering pump cooler off the left down tube on my 95" Twin Cam as I am really hesitant about putting a cooler smack-dab in front of the front cylinder head. Won't it restrict airflow somewhat? Thank you!
I'm not a huge fan of them mounted in front of the front cylinder either, it doesn't cut a lot of air flow but I still want to get as much as I can over the engine. I like the side mounts personally, yeah they are more visible but you have less risk of taking a rock like on the low mounts. It's also out there in the open air where it gets some good flow and way from the engine heat.
When I went thru the riders course , I said to myself if I just had to have it I would have gotten a Harley… I waited to test ride my dark horse. Man I’m glad I did. I love that bike. Nothing against Harley. But they are a dime a dozen! Everyone has one. Same old same! I do think that they will be good for each other as they will encourage competition, which will mean innovative upgrades! Be safe S/F
I am a proud owner of 2017 fxdls But would prefer to own ( provided they are the same price) as my next bike - Indian Springfield Classic, rather than M8 road king . I rented one. It’s great! It’s not perfect! The rear cylinder heat , ( would be nice to have a 7th gear) the weight, ( I’m 5’5” plus 150 lb wife 😨) But the balance of the bike is incredible! I wish Indian( current Indian) would not Bragged about 1901 , because that is not the same brand ! ( lawyers dictate the rights) But it is a great machine! Finally, it is no longer a Harley clone ( that it has been for a such a long time since its revival so many times, since late 90s) Hopefully….one day……
That's my biggest issue is that they keep talking like it's not a revived brand! The Indian can be more expensive than the Harley which is surprising, the chassis is top notch bar none though!
I've owned both the M8 n the thunderstroke powered bikes..the HD had the twin cooled motor..ehich ran cooler n smooth..unfortunately I had severe trans to primary migration..the Indian had no problems with mechanical problems..but it did run considerably hotter..which u had to get rid of the cat..install true duels n a tuner..the later has a better suspension n handling capabilities..both have their plus n minuses..but it's nice we have two American co.s to chose from...😀
That oil transfer issue and the sumping has been the absolute nightmare for the M8. It's better now that they've updated the oil pump and put a vent in the primary. Indian is a awesome bike but that two valve head does hold some heat back.
I love the Indian. Harley is just sooo much better when it comes to the paint and chrome and switches. If I ran into a good deal on a Indian vintage I'd probably grab one up to play on
I've ridden both. I've only test ridden the Indian. My opinion is they give you a motorcycle that needs less mods from the factory. The suspension, seat, bars, radio are all pretty good from the factory.
New sub here....long time viewer!...I came from a 2006 Yamaha roadstar 1700...when I was ready for a new ride I looked at Harley and Indian....when Harley came with the M8...I gave it some time and went with a new 2020...some harley guys don't like this comment...but the M8 is A LOT like the yamie 1700!...I'm very happy with the 114!...great videos!...stay safe out there!😎👍🤙👍🤙🇨🇦
Thank you for the sub! That 1700 Yamaha motor is awesome, l always loved those. You did the right thing waiting on the M8, the 2020 has the updated oil pump which has helped a lot with the sumping issues!
I haven’t had any issues regarding oil e with my 117 and I did a lot of research and check mine all the time because of that complaint….I’ve got 13K on my 2018 SG CVO I’ve been told by a number of professional mechanics to leave well enough alone until if and when it becomes an issue. What say you ?
if Harley went with a forged crank which is much better then their engine design they would have to off set the cylinders. As a retired mechanic I do think the Indian with the forged cranke and bearing shells is a far better design than Harley.. I am a harley owner myself. Keep up with the videos.
Thank you! That's likely exactly why Harley has went with a forged crank and still used a cast knife and fork. Harley has got to keep that signature sound at all costs.
@@GixxerFoo Gixxer, Harley doesn't need to re-design their crank or get all involved in offset cylinders and "signature" sound! All they need to do is WELD the crank they currently have in order to make it just as reliable as the Indian crank!
I'm Also a Harley guy, love my harley's but Motor wise Indian is miles ahead of harley (IE: the Challenger) and have you been to an indian dealer lately, that fit and finish is Damn close to if not surpassing Harley-Davidson on a few models, like if money was no object and i was going Trike, i'd go Indian ALL DAY before HD, or Road Glide VS Challenger i'd take the Challenger. Indian doesn't really make a bike to compete with my Lowrider yet, but in 2022 i may go ride the new chiefs
Lowrider is one of my favorite Harley models, Indian nailed a hole in the market with that Challenger. I really hope to see Harley come out with a big inch liquid cooled bagger. Even the Thunderstroke moto is way ahead of the M8 as far as engine internals and design.
@@GixxerFoo yeah the FX is for sure my favorite, i worked for HD via dealers from 73 to 2010 and i've owned an FXS, FXR, FXLR, FXDL, FXDC, and my current FXDL, I've owned other models loved em all the the FX is Home
I have both. Don’t get me wrong I love you’re Chanel and you’re info on Harley. Since I bought my Indian chieftain I will never go back to Harley touring platform. Just the basic fit and finish of a base Indian chieftain sorry Harley no comparison in power or finish. I have a 114 and it’s a dog against my 111 hands down kick it’s ass all day long. Keep up the great work love the info on twin cams and Evo’s. My bikes are 2019 street glide special ,2019 Indian 111,2009 Harley crossbones,2009 Harley Rocker c.
I was considering a indian roadmaster. In the end I got a HD roadglide limited. Availability and parts were both factors as well. Plus the roadglide just edged out the ultra, and challenger
That Road Master is high $$$, a Harley is actually cheaper compared to that bike. Parts, service and aftermarket support are no where near where Harley is at. Harley is a safe bet for long term ownership.
Big bore M8's are a whole new ball game with possibilities opened up with the 4 valve head. We can even get into throttle bodies and the porting involved paired with an air cleaner. Excellent idea, I just gotta keep it simple and not get carried away lol.
I got my last bike.. but the one piece trans and motor is a serious no go. Young guys today can't even change a tire, no less work on their own bikes.. so dropping it off to let someone else work on it might not be a thing for them.
With the unitized construction you gotta pull the motor, no sane way around that. But you're right, younger guys don't work on anything today. It's really sad the younger generation isn't into the freedom and independence of doing you're own work.
Polaris Victory/Indian forced Harley engineers and designers to actually have to work. The competition that followed ultimately benefitted the customer.
Just added a Honda 2013 cb1100 retro looking to the stable. she is sweet but a different animal all together but i still love my 1990 flhs with 50,000 miles and counting. I wonder what my runout is?. probably better than a new one.
Yeah crank run out isn't an issue with the Evo engines, lol never has been on those bikes. If they just would of carried bottom end setup into the Twin Cams it would of been a excellent motor right out of the box. I really do like those new retro bikes, they are gonna be worth some money in the future. It's as close as you can get to the hard to find classics with todays modern performance.
I've found my M8 Road King to get better gas mileage at ~45 mpg than a T-stroke at ~38 mpg. The M8 came out with rear cylinder deactivation first which was a big bonus for us southwest riders but Indian has it now too. Your knock on the T-stroke for being more complicated is questionable given the 8 valve valve-train VS the 4 valves in the T-stroke. The Harley clutch pull is definitely stiffer and took some getting used to, which I don't like. But a motorcycle is more than just its' engine. I rented an Indian for a weekend ride and found its' controls, smoothness, suspension performance, handling, ergonomics for a tall rider, standard equipment, and chassis design, all superior. Indian comes with all LED lights too. And what's with those two turn signal switches, who does that and why? (talk about complicated) I could take an Indian off the showroom floor and ride it cross country comfortably. The Harley has so many compromises overall that it requires customization in order to be suitable for long rides by any particular rider.
Harley for sure does some interesting things, like the turn signals. Lol you're right, no one else does that but they are at least self canceling. Indian with the all the all LED lighting is something Harley should of done years ago, Indians touring chassis is second to none!
Funny you bring up the gas mileage. When I had my 2015 Roadmaster I would get 45 MPG pretty consistently running 70 MPH. If I took the two lane highways and ran 60 MPH then I could get close to 50 MPG. I was honestly shocked at how good it is on gas. I wish I never sold that bike.
I looked over an Indian, yes fit and finish, the Harley is made with quality parts, huge after market, I'm a Harley guy. But... Compitition is a good thing.
That's what got me on the Indian, chassis is excellent and so is the motor. But so much plastic the price is right up there with a Harley and more expensive on some models.
I'm a harley guy, but the Indians do look good. Agree on the fit and finish though, nothing can touch Harley's paint and chrome quality. I'm not crazy about the looks of the Indian engine.
The Indian is a great looking but agreed they don't have the paint and finish of Harley. I am just glad they started offering a modern and classic look, I wasn't crazy about the large old style fenders.
HD is the dream until it spends more time in the shop than on the road. Logged 18,000 miles this year and ALL the bikes I saw on the side of the road were HD.
It seems over and over, HD launches a new design and does not seem to run testing. There are too many issues to say we did not see this in testing. The M8 had a list of issues and HD continues to push the problem to their customer. I have two TC 88 bikes that have spring loaded cam chain tensioners. HD did not do anything to help customers that bought these bikes. To me, spring loaded cam chain tensioner is an obvious design miss. I enjoy my tow Harleys, but I think I have purchased my last HD.
I agree, as much testing and miles Harley claims to put on these new motors no reasonable person is going to believe they missed that sumping and oil transfer in testing.
You forgot about with Harley Davison that stupid automatic primary chain adjuster. They need to put the egg old-style back in there. You know those things get so tight you have compensator problems S and especially transmission bear
@@GixxerFoo it would be nice if they had the old style inspection plate where are you can get to the tensioner without pulling everything apart. It would be so easy put a manual tensioner back in and just check it now and then. Or even better yet go to link your drive. That would be awesome. I gear drive primary like in Indiana. That would cut back on some maintenance I would think if it’s done right. Maybe build in America. Got rid of the Brembo hydraulic clutch. More maintenance more breakage. It gives you a little more adjustability but i’ve had one since 2011 CVO I like it. Seems like Harley is just taking more and more off of these bikes. What really freaked me out is when they start taking lights off of the bike. 2016 they started taking their tail light off dresses. Touring . I have to check your video I think I seen it but talk about fuck it up a motorcycle with that automatic chain tensioner. Maybe hydraulic would be better but I guess that would not work in a primary. Thanks enjoy your videos
Although I believe Indian is a solid player I am still irritated at Polaris for dropping Victory owners and their promise of parts for 10 years being somewhat of a joke.
Yep I was a bigger fan of the Victory's than any of the Indian's. It kinda makes sense since it was like GMC and Chevy, same bikes just different aesthetics
@@TheDeplorableOne Well, you can thank the Barack Obama disaster economy for scaling back in a production facility on a product that totally relies on disposable income. Trump was the best thing that could have happened to recreational motorsports and Harley had a little comeback under Trump. Now we have gone back to pay-cut Biden and the same disaster economy. I'm afraid he will put the nails in the coffin of Harley Davidson and Indian both.
I am an EVO guy and have the numb butt to prove it. That said, I would have no problem owning either a new Indian or Milwaukee 8 powered Harley. Having competition is good for us, the consumer.
@@wcraiderevo8078 Went stage 2 and did wide band sensors/self learning ECM. The bike runs smother and more consistent. The switch between summer and winter fuel blends used to mess with the smoothness. Now oh wow! The guy who bought my evo is very happy. I did a similar setup on the evo. Heads mild port, cv carb and supertrap. 85,000 miles and ran like raped ape.
myself , i like the design of the Indian roadmaster fairing . i have seen vids of several issues with indians . most seem to be older models though, not old enough to me tbh lol. even though its not air cooled i think the Challenger is doing well against the Road glide. myself i hate the Challenger fairing. from the front it looks good , from the side it looks like someone slapped a box on the front. just the other day i seen a vid by a mechanic saying he has been finding runout on the flywheel on HD to be really bad on some ever since the 96" twin cam. most of the time when there was sumping issues that the runout was bad. some cases the primary chain tensioner could be making it worse. which looking at 07 or newer bikes makes one skittish unless you are prepared to fix these possible issues. good thing about HD is , and its a major selling point, is that you can get every part in the aftermarket. build the engine stock or go all out. frames,tanks,seats,fairings, suspension. bad thing is most people feel you have to go to the aftermarket to get a good bike. most people say if you want fast/ reliable bike get a Japanese bike. its a messy topic that causes a lot of arguments im sure lol. as one who has arthritis and i know it will just get worse , features like DCT, and rekluse auto clutches are a big selling point for me. or a trike setup so i can make it a foot clutch /hand shift. good vid
You can literally build an entire Harley without one single factory Harley part! Indians had some teething issues early on, electronics were little sketchy there for a while. They are really solid machines now, I think the Challenger is going to be the future of baggers going forward. I look for Harley to come out with a liquid cooled performance bagger some day.
Thank you! Indian is a solid bike but they use a lot of plastic looking parts to me, I just couldn't spend that kinda money for one. Especially when they are just as much if not more than a Harley, I'd still take the Harley myself too!
Great video! I rode an Indian when they first came out nearly a decade ago on a 20 mile test ride. I liked it and thought Indian would give HD a run for their money. Yet I didn’t buy one and am still skeptical about the lack of aftermarket and dealership support, something I also believe about European brands here in America. Nonetheless, competition is good. HD is better because there is legitimate competition from Indian and we as consumers are better off too.
The competition has really good in the big twin market, I am the same way about the Indian myself too. I know I can get Harley parts anywhere from just about anyone. The Indian parts are still hard to come by aftermarket, S&S is about the only aftermarket source.
You don't hear anybody having problems with anything Indian your face by their octane their bobbers Harley has had problems with the Mac since the beginning catastrophic engine failure with ridiculously low mileage cheap Parts in the engine I have a Sportster with 350,000 trouble-free miles on it you've drive around every driveway you see has a Harley in the driveway with a for sale sign on it the goose that laid the golden eggs for Harley is dying or already dead Harley dealers will not deal with used bikes it's the same amount of work to sell a used bike as a brand new one the old dealers were enthusiastic about the brand and the bike the new dealers well they could be showing frigerators in appliances for all they care and it shows in customer relations
Harley should put a belt primary drive on the bike it's moves it out so much I rode a Shovelhead in the 80s with a belt primary and a belt final drive and it was almost as smooth as my BMW
I think there might be a little bias about the fit and finish, I've seen some pretty amateur welds on new Harley's. And I can only speak about the Scout, the seat, the suspension and the exhausts all of them need upgraded *ahem* customised but who has a stock Harley? And it's with customisation where you reach a bit of a hurdle because there just isn't really enough. There are more parts for a Yamaha XV950 than for a Scout. Mostly that's because metric parts are pretty universal but the Scout has a weird mix of both. The handle bars are both 1 inch AND 7/8's! So you better love Indian because that's all you're getting.
I can’t believe they pick on Harley over emissions when here in PA. Diesel’s are exempt from emissions, even for personal use hence we have people buying diesel trucks & they make them loud & puff black smoke on purpose🤦♂️🤦♂️
Hi! I really like your video's and i have a question to you. I have HD road king Evo and i would like reduce RPM when i ride 70-80 mph. What do you think about it. Do you have any idea how can i do It? Greetings from Poland 🙂🔥
The twin cam set up was better idk why they went away from it. The rocker box on the m8 is gotta be the 2nd ugliest behind the Indian rocker box. Indian should've stayed with the victory rocker box they used before. They current one looks cheap and like they couldn't afford to clean it up after it was cast. As for Harleys it just looks like they put minimal effort into the design.
I have my forever HDs (16 Streetglide and 17 Dyna LRS) I wanted the last of the TCs. Theyre both built with performance in mind brakes, suspension, chassis, engines and have no interest in starting again. Honestly nothing new really excites me from HD anyways (aside from PA). HD guy and wouldnt go with Indian ever, but no doubt HD needs the competition. Competition is what theyre getting too, Indians not doing too bad in the BRL series. Indian can only push HD to build.
Those last years of the Twin Cam are the absolute best motors they every produced, I am waiting for Harley to test the waters with their own big inch liquid cooled bagger.
I have a question regarding my engine. I have a 2010 Harley Road King with a 96 motor. As everyone seems to be talking about EVO's, M8's etc, what is my engine? Please, no nasty comments, we all have things we don't know.
Your 96 would be a Twin Cam engine, Harley used two cams from 1999 to 2017 in those motors. In 2017 on the M8 they went back to a single cam like the Evo had.
You mentioned Heal-Toe shifter, my foot gets hung up in between the heal- toe shifter on my twin cam. Do they make longer shifters to give my foot more room or better yet do they make a shaft that is made for just the toe shifter? I never use the heal shifter. BTW, your videos are the best!
Thank you, I appreciate it! Yes, there are actually conversion kits out there on the aftermarket to eliminate the heel shifter, I always found the heal shifter to just be in the way myself.
They do make longer shifters for people with big feet too. I didn't like the heal toe shift at first but now it feels weird when I ride something without it
I brought a brand new 2019 Indian Chieftain Limited. And Polaris/Indian was the WORSE BIKE I’ve ever owned. The bike went into limp mode at exactly 2,000 miles in a state I was unfamiliar with. Although the bike was under warranty, the dealer told me that it was my responsibility to get it back to the dealer. So that’s what I did. The bike went to two different dealers and both of them told me, the bike couldn’t be fixed until Polaris/Indian built a new software for it🤬🤬🤬🤨🤨🤨. When I asked them to trade the bike for another one, they refused. They expected me to continue to make monthly payments for a brand new bike , I couldn’t ride 😕😕😕. I traded that piece of TRASH and brought a 2019 Road Glide Special. I brought my wife a2020 Road Glide Special. The only problem I’ve had with the H-D is a flat tire.
Damn that's some bad customer service, sadly l have heard of ridiculous things like that more than the once. It's things like that they make the Harley really stand out on top.
I have owned Indian's & Harley's along with Victory's All 3 are great bikes but all i have left in mt stable now is a 2009 Rocker C, 2014 Dyna Wide Glide & 2021 Street Glide so yeah, i guess im a Harley Guy!
I have seen some stand out factory paint jobs on the Indians . But there are areas like the neck where it's like cast and I even think at one point they were getting fractures around there.🤔I personally am and always will be Harley Davidson. Why ? Well I used to live in England ( long story) and Bill Harley's family home was just down the road from me. This is his ancestry home.before his family came to America. Also the Davidson's came originally from Scotland. So you could say it took the Blokes and Scott's to create Harley Davidson. Also the first Black Harley Davidson dealer and AMA member was William Johnson 😂Even though I'm white I feel I have a connection with HD. And my 2005 Deuce and 2014 Street glide will do me just fine God willing they stay reliable.
That's awesome! That's really going way back into Harley-Davidson history, that is never talked about before they came to the States. Indian has a really nice package, but as you mentioned there's some details that make you wonder.
Polaris proved that money is the object and not customer service. Polaris cut the Victory brand as if it was a red headed step child. So, why would I trust that they will not do it with Indian if the big bikes start to slow down in sales??? BTW, I would rather buy a Moto Guzzi than an Indian since Moto Guzzi is in the game to stay.
I wasn't thrilled about Victory getting the axe, but Indian is a bigger name and the name is what sells them. I highly doubt Polaris would do the same to Indian, that would be a disaster for Polaris.
Honda using that single pin crank was so close they stirred Harley up good lol. The only thing closer would of been push rods instead of over head cams. Harley lost the suit, it was ruled they couldn't patent a sound.
Amen brother; excellent video 👏👏👏👏👏👏 Yeah; I like the separate trans also . For same reasons. I wrote on Indians video. “ I think it’s a Polaris with Indian theme “ - A bit strong reply but when the left the 42 degree angle they lost the essence of the Indian . Close together the cyls we’re . Bolt between cylinders on crankcase was tiny !!!- so ; but they did what they did and went 50 degrees. 🤔 hum well got to give em credit for what the have done towards Indian brand . I’ll still take the old real Indian any day over the new ones . You didn’t mention the challenger engine and hp and torque numbers . I think it’s a 4 valve - ✊🏻👍👌
I just don't like that "Indian" doesn't acknowledge the truth of this being a rebirth of the brand and they talk like they owned it forever. But I agree they have done a wonderful job with modern revival of a long defunct brand. It's not a Harley clone engine with Indian styling like they used to be.
Good info brother friend of mine that I ride with just bought a 2019 Indian it is a very very nice motorcycle but I'm just a Harley guy always have been always will be
Still waiting for the Revolution Max on a bagger. I still think the best air cooled engine from Harley came on a Sportster. I’m biased on that. This was a great video and an honest comparison.
You and me both! I really think it's coming, Harley needs a big inch motor on that Revolution Max platform. That Challenger motor is the future of performance baggers.
@@GixxerFoo I'm holding out because I really do not want the pushrod motor with the primary chain drive that is terrible at low speeds. I'm spoiled with the overhead cam engine and gear drive. Tinkering with motorcycles can be fun if it is done just for fun. It was like tinkering with cars back in the day but you are not doing it anymore. Harley Davidson right now is not putting any thought into their big bikes like Indian is doing and I'm thinking that is because the Victory line designers are now on the Indian line. How many times have you heard that Harley is not listening to their base customers? Well, it looks like Indian is. Now with Joe Biden in I really want to buy the last Harley and the last Indian before he drives them both out of business or to China. LOL!
Ride whatever you like, your choice. If you do a “fair and balanced” assessment of Indian vs Harley or Thunderstroke vs. M8….it would come down to what you like best. Workmanship and overall LESS repairs and maintenance….Indian has HD beat. The paint game, HD is the winner. Customization, HD again is the winner. What’s important to me….having a smooth riding, reliable, good looking bike for long hauls regardless of climate and for that Indian is the clear winner. A lot of cats I ride with say I am an HD guy for life. Not sure why you wouldn’t take a look at the competition. I have owned multiple HDs and multiple Indians…and at this chapter of life it’s Indian for me. When HD becomes more consistent across its dealer network w/improved customer service and reduce the service bulletins…I may come back.
Very well said, it really comes down what you like. Harley's got it problems and I take some issue with that. Harley doesn't own the issues and dealers are independent business, some are great and others are down right awful. Indian makes a great bike, you can't take anything away from it and really comes down preference.
Absolutely, I've been wanting to dive into the Victory engine. Likely the Freedom 106, that was the best years of the Victory motor when they really gained some traction. The Freedom engine was total different architecture than the Indian though, but the Indian does have some of the same concepts in it.
I would've liked a one piece crank in the Milwaukee eight also. The Milwaukee eight does have some problems. I still prefer it to the Indian engine. My biggest problem with the Indian engine is that it has no sleeves in the cylinders. I do not like the coated aluminum cylinders. moving beyond the engine I like the styling of the Harley Davidson motorcycles.
Indian used that Nikasil coating in the cylinders, I like the sleeves personally myself too. A plain bearing one piece crank in the M8 and Harley would have to offset the cylinders. I'm betting that would sacrifice the signature sound and Harley isn't going to do that!
Am I a H.D. or an Indian enthusiast? As anyone worth his salt knows, they're Both good. Point well taken, that each provides competition for the other. I had a 1969 Honda 450, long gone now, but enjoyed it, learned how to ride on it, but no other bike experience until as of late. Rode an '06 H.D. this past summer, not mine, just borrowed. Taking a liking to the soft tail. But now impressssed with ((Polaris')) INDIAN Chief, Classic, Vintage, & Springfield. So, no I don't need a crotch rocket to enjoy the ride. What's the deal today?? Well, honestly I am discouraged by these companys putting up these Xtra Charges. "Short inventory". "Wait time order six months." Surcharge, shipping, setup...Etc, etc, etc.. . Ok it's a sport, luxury thing. I get it. But us oldtimers who want to ride again on 2 wheels before we graduate to a trike, can't those guys in the big corner offices hold prices for a while? Who cares? I do. And I guess a few hundred other oldsters that I can name off the top of my head. PS... I tried negotiating price with my local dealer who basically said 'no way'. They were not rude, just won't budge.
Both Indian and Harley are great motorcycles and of course there are trade offs between the two. The price gouging right now is absolutely stupid "market adjustment" is the BS language I've seen a lot. I get the freight and setup, dealer pays to get it and someone to set the bike up out of the crate. But outside of that we start getting stupid with 500 dollar doc fees, that's crap.
My favorite thing about Indian is the kick in the a$$ it gave HD. The M8 is a great engine. Amazing TQ and HP potential. All HD needs to do is step up their quality.
Totally agree, Harley needs to up their quality and take the hit with keeping the price about the same. Indians cost a bit more but what they lack in fit and finish is more than made up in mechanical quality.
Nice job ! I do like the one piece crank but babot style bearings do require some healthy oil pressure ! It probably would have saved Harley some greif but they probably would have screwed up the oil pressure & the rods ! LMAO !
Oh yeah you gotta have some oil pressure for the plain bearings. If Harley ever went that route I would for sure wait several years. It's just like Harley developing water cooled engines with Porsche, they catch a lot of grief for that. But knowing Harley, would you reeeeeally want them building a water cooled motor on their own?
Yrs ago I rode a big Indian (alright perverts I'm talking about the motorcycle), it was fast and smooth, handled nicely......at that time 96ci was the biggest Harley I had ridden......I haven't ridden an M8 so I can't compare, plus it was yrs ago that I rode an Indian. I sat on the little fast Indian and it was small....I'm 5'10.5", but since then I've ridden(bought) a night rod mid controls skinny back tire, first sit on it made me think small but after riding a couple times I found it to be very comfortable (maybe the little Indian would be too) I'll probably get an Indian when they start popping up used at reasonable prices, I was lucky getting the Rod in near showroom quality, under 3k miles at avg NADA price........ it'll be yrs before you can get any used bike for NADA price
@@GixxerFoo You're right! Designed as the Freedom 2.0, really, and reborn (ironically) as an Indian. Loving the competition! It's bringing out great products in both companies.
Yeah that Indian is really heavy, getting it off the stand you feel it for sure. The Harley is not light weight but it comes off the stand a lot easier. But that mono shock touring chassis on the Indian is second to none.
What's your opinion between these engine? Which engine do you think is better?
Hard not to be biased in this question and I'm definitely not a mechanic but I don't say the Indian may be the little better I don't know but we're also used to the way the Harley is that hard to go wrong with what you know something about you know
I like my Harley.
I really like the challenger motor. But, I want one fully dressed like an ultra limited…. Crazy expensive to option a challenger out like that…
HD needs to put that new sportster motor on a touring frame… I want a water cooled v twin…
Can’t beat the po-ta-to sound of the 114 w/4.5’s
GixxerFoo is the Thunderstroke a S&S X wedge? I’d purchase a stripped down 111 over a Davidson
I'm a Harley guy also, and always will be. Harley has a consistent evolution of the brand since 1903. I love the heritage that comes with the motorcycle. Indians heritage ended in the 50's and the Indian motorcycles you see today are an engineers rendition of what they thought the brand would evolve into if the company continued building bikes. Polaris bet on name recognition when they bought Indian and it was a good move on their part. Now having said that. They make a great looking solid motorcycle, I just wish they would have stayed with the Victory name creating their own heritage and not claiming someone else's. Great video as always Gixxerfoo 🤘😎🤘
Thank you I appreciate it! Very well said, it always bothers me when Gary Gray who is over Indians racing program talks about the brand being around since 1901 etc and how they this and they that. I have the same feeling about it that they went out in 1953 and today it's a revived name with a "this is what we feel it would of evolved into". You're absolutely correct they hedged their bets on the name and Victory should of been able to create it's own legacy.
Victory, they should have kept!
(They would have canceled it anyway in 2020 , due to….😷 )
But Indian …. Should have been their stand alone brand!
What they have done with it is amazing - something that no one ( oh , so many tries) was able to achieve .
Victory is Indians legacy.
Indian sure as hell is selling compared to Harley these days
@@UncleRobsGarage, I don’t think so, I see a lot more new harleys than I see Indians, so where did yo get this idea?
I have a fondness for all bikes, but I am in love with my Harley. I almost bought an Indian Scout but chose a 2020 Breakout 114. After pipes, a heavy breather intake, a Wood Knight Prowler 22x cam and a tune, she makes more than enough power. Some might call her pushrod engine antiquated technology, but you cannot replicate that sound or wipe the smile off of my face when I wake her up. Harleys cost so much because you're paying for the soul that comes with them. Ride what makes you happy. For me, heaven on earth is sitting atop rolling thunder at 80mph or whenever I pull next to a car with kids in it, watch them press their faces to the windows and stare at my bike and remember when I was that kid. There isn't a feeling like it in the world.
Very well said! You have a Breakout 114 with with a Wood 22X? I imagine that bike is a rocket with that cam in there, that's about the baddest bold in cam out there anywhere.
@@GixxerFoo th-cam.com/video/6KSTPatuYL8/w-d-xo.html
@@GixxerFoo yes sir. Depending on the air temp, she's good for about 120hp and 130ft/lbs. She is definitely quick enough for me.
I'm a Harley guy also but you have to give props to Indian for the mere fact that they keep Harley on their toes. Harley was too complacent for a while basically being the only game in town. Always enjoy your vids!!
Thank you, I appreciate it! Indian gave Harley some real competition, Victory didn't threaten Harley like Indian has. The Twin Cam ran for years just basically since it didn't have any real competition.
Been riding a Springfield since 2016. Love the bike.
They are awesome bikes, they do handle very well. They are bit heavier off the stand but once you get them up right you don't feel the weight!
When Indian showed up to King of the Baggers with bone Stock Challengers and thrashed the SGs with the $100K S&S modified HD engines….that’s all you needed to know.
Indian will be releasing a Chieftain with that same 108 in 2022. They don’t have heat issues, rear cylinder issues, pressed crank problems, the need for a catch can, etc. Its an easy choice.
They build a solid bike for sure, yeah in King of the Baggers they had that Screamin Eagle 131R engine built specifically for that class. Thing is like 160 horse and torque, stupid expensive compared to the challenger engine which doesn't need much.
I think King of the Baggers race showed the Bagger World that Indian wasn’t playing around. Good for both companies actually!!!
Great video, as always. I'm on my 3rd Harley, a Road Glide Special. Love the bike, it has the 114. All I've done for the performance (ok, really just the sound) is Reinhart DBX slip ons and a tune. 2 things about the 114. 1) I can't believe the power it has. I didn't buy it for racing, just touring, but you roll on it and she just goes. Passing is no problem. 2) I just did a trip through the U.P. in Michigan over to the twin cities. Stayed off the freeway the whole trip and was getting 48.5 to 49.5 mpg. On an 853lb bike. Holy cow. That's great. So I guess if I couldn't have a Harley then I'd look next at the Indian. But right now, totally happy with my hog.
First and foremost great video on the information on the two engines and manufactures. I own both but run my Indian a lot more. 1st the thunder stroke engine came out in 2013. The Milwaukee 8 2016. It was ( Indian) way ahead of its time! While Harley was still selling the 96 103,107,110. Right out of the bat you had more engine for your buck! I've had my Road King and have done more maintenance on it then my Indian. Yeah a bit more miles on my King than my Indian but still don't he to worry about something going wrong. Long story short. Bought my Indian with less then 2k miles on it and went 3200 miles in a week. 100 degree weather through desert. Didn't give up just kept going. Couldn't do that on a Harley ( my opinion ) with all the service dos and don'ts. But at the end of the day we all ride what we want. Wave to one another as we share a passion for the road! Hasta luego!
Thank you, I appreciate it! The Indian is a solid bike, I really feel it got Harley off their butt. The Twin Cam was really out of date and that new Thunderstroke engine pushed them over edge on getting a new motor out!
Funny you mention fit and finish. That's EXACTLY what keeps me coming back to Harley. There are other brands that are close (some BMWs, Triumph, Ducati are a few examples), but they are only 90% as good. My '21 Road King Special is a work of art!
Harley's really truly are a work of art, even people that hate Harleys will admit they are good looking motorcycles. I can't recall anyone ever saying anything bad about the finish on a Harley.
My 1998 heritage still looks new
Aprilia is another brand that has some great quality to them
KOOL-AID alert...
@@bradleyyounger8499 As does my 20 year old Road King Classic.
My 2021 116 thunderstroke has made my harleys sit.
The motor has incredible power and needs nothing for upgrades.
My harleys have all needed 4k to get them to on par.
I love all my bikes but the indian is hands down the superior bike at this time.
Comfortable, powerful and very well done.
They are absolutely wonderful machines, the touring chassis is leaps and bounds above Harley. I am a Harley guy but damn like you said they need about 4K to get them where they need to be.
My biggest thing is part and dealer support. If you go on a cross country trip you can bet there’s someone nearby if you need work done or need help for your HD. Second, OEM and the aftermarket world is almost endless for HD. If you want something changed it can be done which isn’t something other brands can say.
@@antoniocampos6627 you're correct, but you won't need any parts or dealer support on an Indian going cross country, unlike a HD it will just keep running, straight past all the HD's on the side of the road in a puddle of there own oil. 😂
@@antoniocampos6627 not like Indian/Polaris dealers are rare dude. And if you base buying a bike on it being so unreliable as to need a dealer Network for a simple road trip... Damn lol. You can always get a Japanese bike and not have to worry about that.
@@TheAsheybabe89 who said anything about being unreliable? My brother bought his HD back in 2003 brand new and still rides it. He should hit 110k miles on it this summer. He mentioned that when he does cross country if he’s about to hit a service interval it’s nice to pull up an HD dealer and go there and they always took him in right away without having to wait because they’ll accommodate someone who’s on the road. Not many Indian/Polaris dealers will do that aside from maybe a select few. And I’ll never touch a Japanese bike. I know it’s to save weight but I feel like I’m driving some old dodge with how much plastic is on those bikes. Not to mention unless it’s similar to a Goldwing, it’s going to be a hard ride going from the east coast to the west coast. I know it’s possible but not for me and definitely not for the passenger who would come with me.
One thing that HD beats practically everyone on is parts and dealer support. If you need parts, OEM or aftermarket, they’re out there and readily available. As for dealer support there’s likely a dealer or someone at a shop who can work on your HD anywhere in the US which isn’t something other brands can say
I think competition is exactly what Harley needed. They got complacent which I think drove away a lot of potential business. Yeah there's a lot of tradition and heritage in the design of the Harley motors but Harley also has to remember not everybody wants to build their bike out of a screaming eagle catalog some of us want enough power to keep us happy right out of the gate. I like working on motors so building my tc88 is fun to me but I will admit I've been wanting a scout since about 2016. Love it or hate it Harley is about image, they stay with their engine platforms because it gives that Harley sound and they stay with the traditional Harley look, but the m8 proves you can do that while still making respectable power numbers from a stock motor. There's also something to be said for the fact Indian is getting the numbers that they are with a two valve head and just 9.5:1 compression. to me that says that the Indian has more to offer than what it shows stock but that also tells me that Harley probably could have made pretty similar numbers with a twin cam motor and still stayed EPA compliant. I think the biggest reason the M8 came out has to do with the fact if Harley released a twin cam that made the kind of power the M8 makes there would be a lot of people upset that Harley has been intentionally sandbagging their motors to push the screaming eagle line. This way it's less obvious. I do think that Indian is making some very good motorcycles right now and I think Harley is going to lose a lot of business to them if they don't make some serious changes on how they build bikes to push aftermarket parts.
Ive owned a Harley Sportster, Dyna, Nightrod and a Breakout. I didn't realise how junk they were until I bought an Indian Scout Bobber and rode my friends Chief Dark Horse. A Harley will never be part of my stable ever again
Polaris has done an excellent job with the Indian brand, they are solid motors and they sound really good!
I bought a 2021 Sport Glide in August, and DANG that thing is an AWESOME ride!!! At the time I was flipping back & forth between HD & Indian comparable models. What I found, was options that came standard on Harleys had to be added on to Indians, driving their price of comparable platforms higher than the stock Harley comparable. With that being said, if I didn't get my Sport Glide, I most certainly would be almost as happy with an Indian Chief.
Indians are actually more expensive than Harleys in a lot of cases. I love that Sport Glide, it's the best of both worlds!
@@GixxerFoo I love the way my bike sinks into tight corners & just powers out of them. It really does carve corners well.
The Sport Glide inverted forks and stiffer frame does really handle & ride nice. Easy no tools to set the rear to your weight & ride preference too. I added the Bung King rear shock extender which raised the back of the bike an inch. It actually improved the geometry and the bike became more flickable and I no longer scrape a boot heel in deep twistes.
With a 116 HP stage 3 now 114ci I really dig this bike. I liked the Chief Darkhorse 116ci Thunderstroke a lot, but made the right decision.
Today I would do the 119ci stage 3 kit but swap for the SE 498 cam & springs. (Per Harley engineers original design ie the 11-1 pistons) And Harley’s new High performance softail exhaust for a great bang for the buck build and to retain full warranty.
If you could see The Crankshaft and Rod assembly the Indian looks like they skimped on Rod Size.
I would love to hear ur thoughts and mechanical input on the savage 108 Power Plus in the Challenger vs what the Road Glides have to offer. I realize they are totally different animals, but...horse and torque numbers compared, air vs liquid cooling, compression differences...what makes the Power Plus such a beast ?. I dig the hell out of ur videos and truly appreciate ur knowledge and opinions, so keep it up 🤙
Great video, Gixxer! I really enjoyed your detailed comparison of the two engines!
Thank you! I appreciate it!
" Till the wheels fall off", I'll stick with my Victory magnum
Those are some solid bike right there, Victory has proven to be very reliable.
My first bike was a Polaris 2005 Victory Vegas. I really liked the bike. I wanted to keep it but after a few years of dealing with dwindling parts, really crappy OEM replacement parts, no Polaris customer service and hardly any shops that could or would work on it…I decided to look at Indian and Harley Davidson. Polaris left a sour taste for many Victory owners so I eventually went with HD. Two factors sent me to HD. First was my previous experience with Polaris, and second - I was interested in a touring bike. When I compared bikes in my price range, HD had many more options because they’ve been making touring bikes longer. There were more bikes and these bikes has more options. I couldn’t trust an early Roadmaster compared to a slightly older FLHTCUSE. The first Roadmasters under Polaris are from 2015. When comparing those early Roadmasters to Ultra’s I found the Harley to be a safer bet. HD has been on the road a heck of a lot longer historically speaking.
Victory was a strange deal, I noticed for one Victory ended up under an umbrella in multi brand "power sports" dealers rather than a single brand Victory dealer.
@@GixxerFoo right. I guess Polaris went with a sales model they already knew. Instead of building distinct dealerships with no history, they tried to build a new American V-Twin brand inside the ‘power sport’ market. Compared to Harley their marketing wasn’t even close. Marketing isn’t a mark of quality necessarily but it helps get the word out and keeps people buying t-shirts and leather jackets made in China.
Competition is always good!
Thankyou for this informative video!! 👍
It really is, it's actually got Harley to move and do some updating. They are so traditional and hard to move forward with anything!
I love to see the competitive spirit alive with Harley. Hope to see the revolutions on flat track and in the race leagues. They ran a few at the Bagger Racing League last week in tandem with the hooligan class and they did well.
I really wonder if they will switch motors for Flat Track, they put a lot of money into that Street engine to try and make it competitive. It does great in the production class but it just can't run with the Indians in the Super Twins. Harleys done really well with the Bagger class, that 131R engine is a monster, it makes like 165 horse and torque. That torque starts as soon as you let the clutch out.
Living in the past with V twins is shakey to me, my 1986 honda magna V4 is so smooth and reliable. Riding a Harley is like having a furnace between your legs literally, been riding since 15 now 72 I'd never by one! I also drive 1998 goldwing heat goes outside of cockpit area, much cooler many more benefits! You have to be tougher than me to ride a Harley.
Totally agree, I was out riding around town this week , and had two new Indian baggers pull up at the stop sign and I could not hear them at all and I didn't have my helmet on at the time , no rumble , no nothing .
. I just don't like the look of Indian. Sure they have some more model tech but they are packaged in plastic covers over everything and just doesn't look very good .
I was a Harley owner for many yrs until I rode on an Indian scout and now I own an Indian Bike. they are very good motorcycles for handling and riding they can't be beaten.
You can't take anything away from the ride of the Indian, that touring chassis is superb. Harley needs to get their touring chassis updated to a mono shock design.
Indian Scout? Isn't that a chicks bike?
The main reason that the Milwaukee 8 engine was designed was to meet the EURO 4 standards. Four valves heads are much more efficient in burning fuel than a two-valve head. The new sytle single fire ignition fires each piston on top dead center and lets the engine burn fuel much better than a waste spark ignition that Harley has used for years. The new style throttle body which uses fuel injection is much more efficient than the CV carburetor that Harley used before the M8 engine.
That's very true and Harley knew Euro 5 was on the horizon, they would of rode that Twin Cam pony to the bitter end if they could. The Twin Cam was really running beyond it's limits when it came to how lean it was.
great info. i did not know those details about the 111 till this video. just good stuff. thanks
Thank you for checking it out, the 111 is a really interesting design. Some similarities to Victory but not many.
I'm an old school Harley guy. I don't know about the new stuff but prior to 1953 when the original Indian was still around..... They had a rear suspension in 1940. They had a wet clutch. They had a front suspension like the Hydra Glide. They only went under because they started importing/rebadged Brit bikes, and they wouldn't go to overhead valve. The New York City Police loved them so much they actually wrote the bid in 1956 for specs that only Indian could fill. They put enough enough bikes together to supply the bid, even though they were already out of business for three years.
That's some awesome history, not a lot of people know that about NYPD! Indian was really ahead of their time in a lot of respects.
100% agree! Nothing comes close to the sound and look of H-D.
You forgot to mention that Harley has survived mostly on their own except for AMF days, while Indian has been revived multiple times with completely new design and owners.
Harley has stood the test of time, it just bothers me the way Polaris talks about Indian. They talk like it never died, l mean own the revival of the brand. There's nothing to be ashamed of coming back, l mean Polaris couldn't of done it any better with design.
Your right on point 👍
Thank you, I appreciate it!
Man that street glide looked great . Do you ever think what Harley's original owners would approve or disapprove of on whats going on today . Would they have a parts list for all them old bikes . Would they bring the VROD back . I think about what they'd be thinking of what's going on now . I do think they'd really appreciate their loyal customers on all them bikes and cause of this they'd have parts and service on all them old Harley's
They for sure left a lasting legacy, I feel like though they would of wanted the best in the bikes today with the Screamin Eagle parts right out of the box. I don't think they ever could of imagined what Harley-Davidson would of become right out of a back yard shed.
@@GixxerFoo 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
I haven't ridden an Indian yet, but I rode a 2021 Road Glide Special and man is that bike smooth. It would be great having a one-piece crank assembly, but HD would probably have to compromise something else to get there. Remember too, HD isn't designing these bikes to last forever, they want you coming back buying another one every 3-5 years. LOL!
You got a good point there, they may of learned after the solid reliability and simplicity of the Evo motors!
The Indian really are great bikes. I ended up buying an Indian FTR once Harley announced they were scrapping the street fighter. It's an extremely fun bike, but not in the traditional Harley cruiser sense.
LOVE YOUR VIDEOS - by far the best motorcycle channel out there
Thank you! I really appreciate that!
Got a ‘19 trike M8-114 for my wife; 6’4” 250#.
Built on a Wednesday. She loves it ... stage 2 but still wants the deep lope and sound....
Does the cat really smooth out exhaust thrust? Comming off anyway after warranty for excessive heat .
The cats are great for torque, but they do create a lot of heat and knock down the sound. The M8 has a good low idle at 850, but to really make them lope and thump it takes a good aftermarket cam. If you go with full exhaust that eliminates the cat with the stage 2, (assuming SE cam) you should get some more lope.
@@GixxerFoo thank you!
Great Vid Gixxer, I had considered purchasing and using a Jagg 4700 and running a small Ford power steering pump cooler off the left down tube on my 95" Twin Cam as I am really hesitant about putting a cooler smack-dab in front of the front cylinder head. Won't it restrict airflow somewhat? Thank you!
I'm not a huge fan of them mounted in front of the front cylinder either, it doesn't cut a lot of air flow but I still want to get as much as I can over the engine. I like the side mounts personally, yeah they are more visible but you have less risk of taking a rock like on the low mounts. It's also out there in the open air where it gets some good flow and way from the engine heat.
When I went thru the riders course , I said to myself if I just had to have it I would have gotten a Harley… I waited to test ride my dark horse. Man I’m glad I did. I love that bike. Nothing against Harley. But they are a dime a dozen! Everyone has one. Same old same! I do think that they will be good for each other as they will encourage competition, which will mean innovative upgrades! Be safe S/F
Indian makes a dang good product, Harley really needs to get their touring chassis updated to be on par with the Indian for sure!
Before I got into motorcycles, I use to call every chromed oldish style motorcycle a Harley Davidson.
Harley-Davidson is the most recognizable brand out there to just about anyone, if it's not a sport bike it's a Harley if you don't know.
I am a proud owner of 2017 fxdls
But would prefer to own ( provided they are the same price) as my next bike - Indian Springfield Classic, rather than M8 road king .
I rented one. It’s great!
It’s not perfect!
The rear cylinder heat ,
( would be nice to have a 7th gear)
the weight,
( I’m 5’5” plus 150 lb wife 😨)
But the balance of the bike is incredible!
I wish Indian( current Indian) would not
Bragged about 1901 , because that is not the same brand !
( lawyers dictate the rights)
But it is a great machine!
Finally, it is no longer a Harley clone ( that it has been for a such a long time since its revival so many times, since late 90s)
Hopefully….one day……
That's my biggest issue is that they keep talking like it's not a revived brand! The Indian can be more expensive than the Harley which is surprising, the chassis is top notch bar none though!
I've owned both the M8 n the thunderstroke powered bikes..the HD had the twin cooled motor..ehich ran cooler n smooth..unfortunately I had severe trans to primary migration..the Indian had no problems with mechanical problems..but it did run considerably hotter..which u had to get rid of the cat..install true duels n a tuner..the later has a better suspension n handling capabilities..both have their plus n minuses..but it's nice we have two American co.s to chose from...😀
That oil transfer issue and the sumping has been the absolute nightmare for the M8. It's better now that they've updated the oil pump and put a vent in the primary. Indian is a awesome bike but that two valve head does hold some heat back.
I love the Indian. Harley is just sooo much better when it comes to the paint and chrome and switches. If I ran into a good deal on a Indian vintage I'd probably grab one up to play on
That's my hand up on Indian, the fit and finish isn't exactly up to where Harley is at but they cost just as much if not more than a new Harley.
I've ridden both. I've only test ridden the Indian. My opinion is they give you a motorcycle that needs less mods from the factory. The suspension, seat, bars, radio are all pretty good from the factory.
New sub here....long time viewer!...I came from a 2006 Yamaha roadstar 1700...when I was ready for a new ride I looked at Harley and Indian....when Harley came with the M8...I gave it some time and went with a new 2020...some harley guys don't like this comment...but the M8 is A LOT like the yamie 1700!...I'm very happy with the 114!...great videos!...stay safe out there!😎👍🤙👍🤙🇨🇦
Thank you for the sub! That 1700 Yamaha motor is awesome, l always loved those. You did the right thing waiting on the M8, the 2020 has the updated oil pump which has helped a lot with the sumping issues!
I haven’t had any issues regarding oil e with my 117 and I did a lot of research and check mine all the time because of that complaint….I’ve got 13K on my 2018 SG CVO I’ve been told by a number of professional mechanics to leave well enough alone until if and when it becomes an issue. What say you ?
If you're not getting any oil transfer to the primary or exhibiting any signs of sumping I wouldn't mess with it honestly.
Very interesting comparison and discussion of the engine differences, good vid thanks!
My pleasure!
if Harley went with a forged crank which is much better then their engine design they would have to off set the cylinders. As a retired mechanic I do think the Indian with the forged cranke and bearing shells is a far better design than Harley.. I am a harley owner myself. Keep up with the videos.
Thank you! That's likely exactly why Harley has went with a forged crank and still used a cast knife and fork. Harley has got to keep that signature sound at all costs.
@@GixxerFoo Gixxer, Harley doesn't need to re-design their crank or get all involved in offset cylinders and "signature" sound! All they need to do is WELD the crank they currently have in order to make it just as reliable as the Indian crank!
I'm Also a Harley guy, love my harley's but Motor wise Indian is miles ahead of harley (IE: the Challenger) and have you been to an indian dealer lately, that fit and finish is Damn close to if not surpassing Harley-Davidson on a few models, like if money was no object and i was going Trike, i'd go Indian ALL DAY before HD, or Road Glide VS Challenger i'd take the Challenger. Indian doesn't really make a bike to compete with my Lowrider yet, but in 2022 i may go ride the new chiefs
Lowrider is one of my favorite Harley models, Indian nailed a hole in the market with that Challenger. I really hope to see Harley come out with a big inch liquid cooled bagger. Even the Thunderstroke moto is way ahead of the M8 as far as engine internals and design.
@@GixxerFoo yeah the FX is for sure my favorite, i worked for HD via dealers from 73 to 2010 and i've owned an FXS, FXR, FXLR, FXDL, FXDC, and my current FXDL, I've owned other models loved em all the the FX is Home
I have both. Don’t get me wrong I love you’re Chanel and you’re info on Harley. Since I bought my Indian chieftain I will never go back to Harley touring platform. Just the basic fit and finish of a base Indian chieftain sorry Harley no comparison in power or finish. I have a 114 and it’s a dog against my 111 hands down kick it’s ass all day long. Keep up the great work love the info on twin cams and Evo’s. My bikes are 2019 street glide special ,2019 Indian 111,2009 Harley crossbones,2009 Harley Rocker c.
Indian's touring chassis is second to none, Harley needs to get their touring chassis updated really bad.
I was considering a indian roadmaster. In the end I got a HD roadglide limited. Availability and parts were both factors as well. Plus the roadglide just edged out the ultra, and challenger
That Road Master is high $$$, a Harley is actually cheaper compared to that bike. Parts, service and aftermarket support are no where near where Harley is at. Harley is a safe bet for long term ownership.
Harley M8 came out in 2017 which was already in the works when the TS 111 came out 2014
One thing about Indian is they can go from start to finish on a new motor pretty quick.
Always great content, even in the comment section! Happy Holidays!
Happy holidays! I gotta admit we have a great comment section on the channel, it's always interesting to hear the stories and commentary.
how about a video on m8 big bore air cleaners and the best flow
Big bore M8's are a whole new ball game with possibilities opened up with the 4 valve head. We can even get into throttle bodies and the porting involved paired with an air cleaner. Excellent idea, I just gotta keep it simple and not get carried away lol.
Good stuff brother💯👊🏽😎
🤙 Thank you! Hope you're doing well!
@@GixxerFoo doing ok brother, hope you are too💯
I got my last bike.. but the one piece trans and motor is a serious no go. Young guys today can't even change a tire, no less work on their own bikes.. so dropping it off to let someone else work on it might not be a thing for them.
With the unitized construction you gotta pull the motor, no sane way around that. But you're right, younger guys don't work on anything today. It's really sad the younger generation isn't into the freedom and independence of doing you're own work.
I know my Sportster is a 45 degree V twin. I thought big twins were always 60 degree V twins.
All 45's across the board, well except the Vrod, Street and the new Revolution Max engines.
Polaris Victory/Indian forced Harley engineers and designers to actually have to work. The competition that followed ultimately benefitted the customer.
It really did, Harley had a lock on the big twin market for years with only competition from foreign manufacturers.
Just added a Honda 2013 cb1100 retro looking to the stable. she is sweet but a different animal all together but i still love my 1990 flhs with 50,000 miles and counting. I wonder what my runout is?. probably better than a new one.
Yeah crank run out isn't an issue with the Evo engines, lol never has been on those bikes. If they just would of carried bottom end setup into the Twin Cams it would of been a excellent motor right out of the box. I really do like those new retro bikes, they are gonna be worth some money in the future. It's as close as you can get to the hard to find classics with todays modern performance.
I've found my M8 Road King to get better gas mileage at ~45 mpg than a T-stroke at ~38 mpg. The M8 came out with rear cylinder deactivation first which was a big bonus for us southwest riders but Indian has it now too. Your knock on the T-stroke for being more complicated is questionable given the 8 valve valve-train VS the 4 valves in the T-stroke. The Harley clutch pull is definitely stiffer and took some getting used to, which I don't like.
But a motorcycle is more than just its' engine. I rented an Indian for a weekend ride and found its' controls, smoothness, suspension performance, handling, ergonomics for a tall rider, standard equipment, and chassis design, all superior. Indian comes with all LED lights too. And what's with those two turn signal switches, who does that and why? (talk about complicated) I could take an Indian off the showroom floor and ride it cross country comfortably. The Harley has so many compromises overall that it requires customization in order to be suitable for long rides by any particular rider.
Harley for sure does some interesting things, like the turn signals. Lol you're right, no one else does that but they are at least self canceling. Indian with the all the all LED lighting is something Harley should of done years ago, Indians touring chassis is second to none!
Funny you bring up the gas mileage. When I had my 2015 Roadmaster I would get 45 MPG pretty consistently running 70 MPH. If I took the two lane highways and ran 60 MPH then I could get close to 50 MPG. I was honestly shocked at how good it is on gas. I wish I never sold that bike.
I looked over an Indian, yes fit and finish, the Harley is made with quality parts, huge after market, I'm a Harley guy. But...
Compitition is a good thing.
That's what got me on the Indian, chassis is excellent and so is the motor. But so much plastic the price is right up there with a Harley and more expensive on some models.
I'm a harley guy, but the Indians do look good. Agree on the fit and finish though, nothing can touch Harley's paint and chrome quality. I'm not crazy about the looks of the Indian engine.
The Indian is a great looking but agreed they don't have the paint and finish of Harley. I am just glad they started offering a modern and classic look, I wasn't crazy about the large old style fenders.
Agreed!!!👍🏻
M8 114👍
That longer stroke makes quite a hit of difference!
@@GixxerFoo even more so when at some point I fit the new Woods cam for a stage2.
No kid ever grows up wishing he had a Polaris......
Unless its a snowmobile.
Harley is the dream, but hats off to the Indian brand for making a dent in Harley's market share. Victory sold, but never caught on like Indian.
Polaris makes a bad ass snowmobile!
@@GixxerFoo Yes they do!
HD is the dream until it spends more time in the shop than on the road. Logged 18,000 miles this year and ALL the bikes I saw on the side of the road were HD.
It seems over and over, HD launches a new design and does not seem to run testing. There are too many issues to say we did not see this in testing. The M8 had a list of issues and HD continues to push the problem to their customer. I have two TC 88 bikes that have spring loaded cam chain tensioners. HD did not do anything to help customers that bought these bikes. To me, spring loaded cam chain tensioner is an obvious design miss. I enjoy my tow Harleys, but I think I have purchased my last HD.
I agree, as much testing and miles Harley claims to put on these new motors no reasonable person is going to believe they missed that sumping and oil transfer in testing.
You forgot about with Harley Davison that stupid automatic primary chain adjuster. They need to put the egg old-style back in there. You know those things get so tight you have compensator problems S and especially transmission bear
That's the truth, l did a whole video on that auto tensioner nightmare.
@@GixxerFoo it would be nice if they had the old style inspection plate where are you can get to the tensioner without pulling everything apart. It would be so easy put a manual tensioner back in and just check it now and then. Or even better yet go to link your drive. That would be awesome. I gear drive primary like in Indiana. That would cut back on some maintenance I would think if it’s done right. Maybe build in America. Got rid of the Brembo hydraulic clutch. More maintenance more breakage. It gives you a little more adjustability but i’ve had one since 2011 CVO I like it. Seems like Harley is just taking more and more off of these bikes. What really freaked me out is when they start taking lights off of the bike. 2016 they started taking their tail light off dresses. Touring . I have to check your video I think I seen it but talk about fuck it up a motorcycle with that automatic chain tensioner. Maybe hydraulic would be better but I guess that would not work in a primary. Thanks enjoy your videos
Although I believe Indian is a solid player I am still irritated at Polaris for dropping Victory owners and their promise of parts for 10 years being somewhat of a joke.
I really can't believe they just dumped Victory, they could of scaled back the models or something. That was a waste of an excellent engine platform.
I went to a Victory demo a few years ago and if I'd had £9000 that day I'd have gotten one that day
Yep I was a bigger fan of the Victory's than any of the Indian's. It kinda makes sense since it was like GMC and Chevy, same bikes just different aesthetics
@@TheDeplorableOne Well, you can thank the Barack Obama disaster economy for scaling back in a production facility on a product that totally relies on disposable income. Trump was the best thing that could have happened to recreational motorsports and Harley had a little comeback under Trump. Now we have gone back to pay-cut Biden and the same disaster economy. I'm afraid he will put the nails in the coffin of Harley Davidson and Indian both.
I am an EVO guy and have the numb butt to prove it. That said, I would have no problem owning either a new Indian or Milwaukee 8 powered Harley. Having competition is good for us, the consumer.
Long live the Evos!
@@GixxerFoo I had my evo dresser 30 years. Love my M8 softail.
I have owned 3 evos..loved them all
@@larrys.3992 The hard part is trying to decide between going new school or sticking with an old school EVO. Choice is good.
@@wcraiderevo8078 Went stage 2 and did wide band sensors/self learning ECM. The bike runs smother and more consistent. The switch between summer and winter fuel blends used to mess with the smoothness. Now oh wow!
The guy who bought my evo is very happy. I did a similar setup on the evo. Heads mild port, cv carb and supertrap. 85,000 miles and ran like raped ape.
myself , i like the design of the Indian roadmaster fairing . i have seen vids of several issues with indians . most seem to be older models though, not old enough to me tbh lol. even though its not air cooled i think the Challenger is doing well against the Road glide. myself i hate the Challenger fairing. from the front it looks good , from the side it looks like someone slapped a box on the front. just the other day i seen a vid by a mechanic saying he has been finding runout on the flywheel on HD to be really bad on some ever since the 96" twin cam. most of the time when there was sumping issues that the runout was bad. some cases the primary chain tensioner could be making it worse. which looking at 07 or newer bikes makes one skittish unless you are prepared to fix these possible issues. good thing about HD is , and its a major selling point, is that you can get every part in the aftermarket. build the engine stock or go all out. frames,tanks,seats,fairings, suspension. bad thing is most people feel you have to go to the aftermarket to get a good bike. most people say if you want fast/ reliable bike get a Japanese bike. its a messy topic that causes a lot of arguments im sure lol. as one who has arthritis and i know it will just get worse , features like DCT, and rekluse auto clutches are a big selling point for me. or a trike setup so i can make it a foot clutch /hand shift. good vid
You can literally build an entire Harley without one single factory Harley part! Indians had some teething issues early on, electronics were little sketchy there for a while. They are really solid machines now, I think the Challenger is going to be the future of baggers going forward. I look for Harley to come out with a liquid cooled performance bagger some day.
Great video. Appreciate the comparison. Harley wins in my opinion, but mainly cause the aftermarket companies make it cooler.
Thank you! Indian is a solid bike but they use a lot of plastic looking parts to me, I just couldn't spend that kinda money for one. Especially when they are just as much if not more than a Harley, I'd still take the Harley myself too!
Great video! I rode an Indian when they first came out nearly a decade ago on a 20 mile test ride. I liked it and thought Indian would give HD a run for their money. Yet I didn’t buy one and am still skeptical about the lack of aftermarket and dealership support, something I also believe about European brands here in America. Nonetheless, competition is good. HD is better because there is legitimate competition from Indian and we as consumers are better off too.
The competition has really good in the big twin market, I am the same way about the Indian myself too. I know I can get Harley parts anywhere from just about anyone. The Indian parts are still hard to come by aftermarket, S&S is about the only aftermarket source.
You don't hear anybody having problems with anything Indian your face by their octane their bobbers Harley has had problems with the Mac since the beginning catastrophic engine failure with ridiculously low mileage cheap Parts in the engine I have a Sportster with 350,000 trouble-free miles on it you've drive around every driveway you see has a Harley in the driveway with a for sale sign on it the goose that laid the golden eggs for Harley is dying or already dead Harley dealers will not deal with used bikes it's the same amount of work to sell a used bike as a brand new one the old dealers were enthusiastic about the brand and the bike the new dealers well they could be showing frigerators in appliances for all they care and it shows in customer relations
Harley should put a belt primary drive on the bike it's moves it out so much I rode a Shovelhead in the 80s with a belt primary and a belt final drive and it was almost as smooth as my BMW
I think there might be a little bias about the fit and finish, I've seen some pretty amateur welds on new Harley's. And I can only speak about the Scout, the seat, the suspension and the exhausts all of them need upgraded *ahem* customised but who has a stock Harley? And it's with customisation where you reach a bit of a hurdle because there just isn't really enough. There are more parts for a Yamaha XV950 than for a Scout. Mostly that's because metric parts are pretty universal but the Scout has a weird mix of both. The handle bars are both 1 inch AND 7/8's! So you better love Indian because that's all you're getting.
Indian used some interesting parts on their bikes, I found that out the hard way!
The Indian Piston Rods are weak looking beside a Harley Piston Rod .
They did have rod issues which came to light with the 116 kits, but they've since corrected that.
I can’t believe they pick on Harley over emissions when here in PA. Diesel’s are exempt from emissions, even for personal use hence we have people buying diesel trucks & they make them loud & puff black smoke on purpose🤦♂️🤦♂️
Especially when motorcycles count for such a minute amount of emissions, lawn mowers and small engines count for more than motorcycles.
@@GixxerFoo
Absolutely
Hi! I really like your video's and i have a question to you. I have HD road king Evo and i would like reduce RPM when i ride 70-80 mph. What do you think about it. Do you have any idea how can i do It? Greetings from Poland 🙂🔥
I know they aren't in making them anymore but I am curious to hear what you have to say about the Victory Freedom 106 engine.
It's a very interesting comparison to the Twin Cam which was its direct competitor and then the shift to the Indian Thunderstroke.
The twin cam set up was better idk why they went away from it. The rocker box on the m8 is gotta be the 2nd ugliest behind the Indian rocker box. Indian should've stayed with the victory rocker box they used before. They current one looks cheap and like they couldn't afford to clean it up after it was cast. As for Harleys it just looks like they put minimal effort into the design.
I have my forever HDs (16 Streetglide and 17 Dyna LRS) I wanted the last of the TCs. Theyre both built with performance in mind brakes, suspension, chassis, engines and have no interest in starting again. Honestly nothing new really excites me from HD anyways (aside from PA). HD guy and wouldnt go with Indian ever, but no doubt HD needs the competition. Competition is what theyre getting too, Indians not doing too bad in the BRL series. Indian can only push HD to build.
Those last years of the Twin Cam are the absolute best motors they every produced, I am waiting for Harley to test the waters with their own big inch liquid cooled bagger.
I have a question regarding my engine. I have a 2010 Harley Road King with a 96 motor. As everyone seems to be talking about EVO's, M8's etc, what is my engine? Please, no nasty comments, we all have things we don't know.
Your 96 would be a Twin Cam engine, Harley used two cams from 1999 to 2017 in those motors. In 2017 on the M8 they went back to a single cam like the Evo had.
You mentioned Heal-Toe shifter, my foot gets hung up in between the heal- toe shifter on my twin cam. Do they make longer shifters to give my foot more room or better yet do they make a shaft that is made for just the toe shifter? I never use the heal shifter.
BTW, your videos are the best!
Thank you, I appreciate it! Yes, there are actually conversion kits out there on the aftermarket to eliminate the heel shifter, I always found the heal shifter to just be in the way myself.
They do make longer shifters for people with big feet too. I didn't like the heal toe shift at first but now it feels weird when I ride something without it
I brought a brand new 2019 Indian Chieftain Limited. And Polaris/Indian was the WORSE BIKE I’ve ever owned. The bike went into limp mode at exactly 2,000 miles in a state I was unfamiliar with. Although the bike was under warranty, the dealer told me that it was my responsibility to get it back to the dealer. So that’s what I did. The bike went to two different dealers and both of them told me, the bike couldn’t be fixed until Polaris/Indian built a new software for it🤬🤬🤬🤨🤨🤨. When I asked them to trade the bike for another one, they refused. They expected me to continue to make monthly payments for a brand new bike , I couldn’t ride 😕😕😕. I traded that piece of TRASH and brought a 2019 Road Glide Special. I brought my wife a2020 Road Glide Special. The only problem I’ve had with the H-D is a flat tire.
Damn that's some bad customer service, sadly l have heard of ridiculous things like that more than the once. It's things like that they make the Harley really stand out on top.
I have owned Indian's & Harley's along with Victory's
All 3 are great bikes but all i have left in mt stable now is a 2009 Rocker C, 2014 Dyna Wide Glide & 2021 Street Glide
so yeah, i guess im a Harley Guy!
There's just something about a Harley, I don't know what it is but they draw you in!
I have seen some stand out factory paint jobs on the Indians . But there are areas like the neck where it's like cast and I even think at one point they were getting fractures around there.🤔I personally am and always will be Harley Davidson. Why ? Well I used to live in England ( long story) and Bill Harley's family home was just down the road from me. This is his ancestry home.before his family came to America. Also the Davidson's came originally from Scotland. So you could say it took the Blokes and Scott's to create Harley Davidson. Also the first Black Harley Davidson dealer and AMA member was William Johnson 😂Even though I'm white I feel I have a connection with HD. And my 2005 Deuce and 2014 Street glide will do me just fine God willing they stay reliable.
That's awesome! That's really going way back into Harley-Davidson history, that is never talked about before they came to the States. Indian has a really nice package, but as you mentioned there's some details that make you wonder.
Polaris proved that money is the object and not customer service. Polaris cut the Victory brand as if it was a red headed step child. So, why would I trust that they will not do it with Indian if the big bikes start to slow down in sales??? BTW, I would rather buy a Moto Guzzi than an Indian since Moto Guzzi is in the game to stay.
I wasn't thrilled about Victory getting the axe, but Indian is a bigger name and the name is what sells them. I highly doubt Polaris would do the same to Indian, that would be a disaster for Polaris.
Honda was sued by Harley for copying the sound of a Harley on their Honda ACE cruiser.Honda used a solid crank and a 45-degree engine
Honda using that single pin crank was so close they stirred Harley up good lol. The only thing closer would of been push rods instead of over head cams. Harley lost the suit, it was ruled they couldn't patent a sound.
Amen brother; excellent video 👏👏👏👏👏👏
Yeah; I like the separate trans also . For same reasons. I wrote on Indians video. “ I think it’s a Polaris with Indian theme “ -
A bit strong reply but when the left the 42 degree angle they lost the essence of the Indian . Close together the cyls we’re . Bolt between cylinders on crankcase was tiny !!!- so ; but they did what they did and went 50 degrees. 🤔 hum well got to give em credit for what the have done towards Indian brand . I’ll still take the old real Indian any day over the new ones .
You didn’t mention the challenger engine and hp and torque numbers . I think it’s a 4 valve -
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I just don't like that "Indian" doesn't acknowledge the truth of this being a rebirth of the brand and they talk like they owned it forever. But I agree they have done a wonderful job with modern revival of a long defunct brand. It's not a Harley clone engine with Indian styling like they used to be.
@@GixxerFoo amen- ✊🏻👌👍
Just did S&S geardrive cams on my 02 " Timken bearings" Lowrider 🇺🇸
Harley guy here!!!
That's a solid setup on a 2002 model!
Good work
Thank you! Cheers!
Really like your new videos.
Thank you, I really appreciate that!
Good info brother friend of mine that I ride with just bought a 2019 Indian it is a very very nice motorcycle but I'm just a Harley guy always have been always will be
The Indians are really nice bikes but they just aren't for me either, I still have to have a Harley myself.
Still waiting for the Revolution Max on a bagger. I still think the best air cooled engine from Harley came on a Sportster. I’m biased on that. This was a great video and an honest comparison.
You and me both! I really think it's coming, Harley needs a big inch motor on that Revolution Max platform. That Challenger motor is the future of performance baggers.
@@GixxerFoo I'm holding out because I really do not want the pushrod motor with the primary chain drive that is terrible at low speeds. I'm spoiled with the overhead cam engine and gear drive. Tinkering with motorcycles can be fun if it is done just for fun. It was like tinkering with cars back in the day but you are not doing it anymore. Harley Davidson right now is not putting any thought into their big bikes like Indian is doing and I'm thinking that is because the Victory line designers are now on the Indian line. How many times have you heard that Harley is not listening to their base customers? Well, it looks like Indian is. Now with Joe Biden in I really want to buy the last Harley and the last Indian before he drives them both out of business or to China. LOL!
Hell they are ramming this electric everything down our throats now. All the manufacturers making crazy claims about going all electric in 10 years.
The way Indian is always in, and out of business, who would want 1?
I think they will be around for a while now but who knows since Victory went out.
Ride whatever you like, your choice. If you do a “fair and balanced” assessment of Indian vs Harley or Thunderstroke vs. M8….it would come down to what you like best. Workmanship and overall LESS repairs and maintenance….Indian has HD beat. The paint game, HD is the winner. Customization, HD again is the winner. What’s important to me….having a smooth riding, reliable, good looking bike for long hauls regardless of climate and for that Indian is the clear winner. A lot of cats I ride with say I am an HD guy for life. Not sure why you wouldn’t take a look at the competition. I have owned multiple HDs and multiple Indians…and at this chapter of life it’s Indian for me. When HD becomes more consistent across its dealer network w/improved customer service and reduce the service bulletins…I may come back.
Very well said, it really comes down what you like. Harley's got it problems and I take some issue with that. Harley doesn't own the issues and dealers are independent business, some are great and others are down right awful. Indian makes a great bike, you can't take anything away from it and really comes down preference.
good video, can you compare Indian with Victory motors? I'm sure the Indian R&D was born @ Victory.
Absolutely, I've been wanting to dive into the Victory engine. Likely the Freedom 106, that was the best years of the Victory motor when they really gained some traction. The Freedom engine was total different architecture than the Indian though, but the Indian does have some of the same concepts in it.
I would've liked a one piece crank in the Milwaukee eight also. The Milwaukee eight does have some problems. I still prefer it to the Indian engine. My biggest problem with the Indian engine is that it has no sleeves in the cylinders. I do not like the coated aluminum cylinders.
moving beyond the engine I like the styling of the Harley Davidson motorcycles.
Indian used that Nikasil coating in the cylinders, I like the sleeves personally myself too. A plain bearing one piece crank in the M8 and Harley would have to offset the cylinders. I'm betting that would sacrifice the signature sound and Harley isn't going to do that!
Am I a H.D. or an Indian enthusiast? As anyone worth his salt knows, they're Both good. Point well taken, that each provides competition for the other. I had a 1969 Honda 450, long gone now, but enjoyed it, learned how to ride on it, but no other bike experience until as of late. Rode an '06 H.D. this past summer, not mine, just borrowed. Taking a liking to the soft tail. But now impressssed with ((Polaris')) INDIAN Chief, Classic, Vintage, & Springfield. So, no I don't need a crotch rocket to enjoy the ride. What's the deal today?? Well, honestly I am discouraged by these companys putting up these Xtra Charges. "Short inventory". "Wait time order six months." Surcharge, shipping, setup...Etc, etc, etc.. . Ok it's a sport, luxury thing. I get it. But us oldtimers who want to ride again on 2 wheels before we graduate to a trike, can't those guys in the big corner offices hold prices for a while? Who cares? I do. And I guess a few hundred other oldsters that I can name off the top of my head. PS... I tried negotiating price with my local dealer who basically said 'no way'. They were not rude, just won't budge.
Both Indian and Harley are great motorcycles and of course there are trade offs between the two. The price gouging right now is absolutely stupid "market adjustment" is the BS language I've seen a lot. I get the freight and setup, dealer pays to get it and someone to set the bike up out of the crate. But outside of that we start getting stupid with 500 dollar doc fees, that's crap.
My favorite thing about Indian is the kick in the a$$ it gave HD. The M8 is a great engine. Amazing TQ and HP potential. All HD needs to do is step up their quality.
Totally agree, Harley needs to up their quality and take the hit with keeping the price about the same. Indians cost a bit more but what they lack in fit and finish is more than made up in mechanical quality.
The Indian engine seems closer to the evo sportster engine.
Those perfectly vertical pushrods are definite plus on that engine, that makes a huge difference.
Nice job ! I do like the one piece crank but babot style bearings do require some healthy oil pressure ! It probably would have saved Harley some greif but they probably would have screwed up the oil pressure & the rods ! LMAO !
Oh yeah you gotta have some oil pressure for the plain bearings. If Harley ever went that route I would for sure wait several years. It's just like Harley developing water cooled engines with Porsche, they catch a lot of grief for that. But knowing Harley, would you reeeeeally want them building a water cooled motor on their own?
Yrs ago I rode a big Indian (alright perverts I'm talking about the motorcycle), it was fast and smooth, handled nicely......at that time 96ci was the biggest Harley I had ridden......I haven't ridden an M8 so I can't compare, plus it was yrs ago that I rode an Indian.
I sat on the little fast Indian and it was small....I'm 5'10.5", but since then I've ridden(bought) a night rod mid controls skinny back tire, first sit on it made me think small but after riding a couple times I found it to be very comfortable (maybe the little Indian would be too)
I'll probably get an Indian when they start popping up used at reasonable prices, I was lucky getting the Rod in near showroom quality, under 3k miles at avg NADA price........ it'll be yrs before you can get any used bike for NADA price
😄 you didn't leave the door open there! Indians hold their value really well, you can damn near buy a new one for what they want on a used one!
Now do the Power Plus engine in the Indian Challenger.
That's a good one, it's really a reborn Victory 106 with water cooling in a lot of ways!
@@GixxerFoo You're right! Designed as the Freedom 2.0, really, and reborn (ironically) as an Indian. Loving the competition! It's bringing out great products in both companies.
Best suspension for 2017 flhtk
Best suspension, I would go with remote reservoir rears and see how you like it. Legends is expensive but man they are hard to beat!
I don’t believe the Indians get the mpg that Harley gets . That Chief is heavy !!!
800 lbs + -
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Yeah that Indian is really heavy, getting it off the stand you feel it for sure. The Harley is not light weight but it comes off the stand a lot easier. But that mono shock touring chassis on the Indian is second to none.