False equivalents, but there are different dots to connect. Such as that society gives limited resources to men and that they lack purpose or duty. Men don't want to give out emotions because they don't have to or most people don't really want to care about their issues so they must endure and become stoic for they know. Help isn't coming or it won't come in time.
The gay conservative guy saying "seeking acceptance starts with accepting society as it is" is the absolute peak of irony. Just 30 years ago, he would _never_ have been accepted if everyone just rolled over and accepted the way society was. How does he think society came to be accepting of gay people? It's from people working to CHANGE society.
society moves in a predictable pattern. Normal? no Secret, Scandal, Threat assessment, Action. you have to accept society is what it is, and that it won't like it, to keep it a secret. and you have to keep it a secret to put the chain in motion.
I’m just a bit perturbed when I keep hearing feminine traits being referred to as weakness…I’m very feminine and I’ve never fell out on the floor crying. As if we don’t have any self control and the ability to manage our own emotions. That should be a human trait.
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Right!! Like uncontrollable emotions aren't the same as simply being in TOUCH with your emotions and being able to feel each one. He's just a well trained drone. He's textbook
Because women are known for being controlled by their emotions. It’s exactly why they were never looked to to lead. Women are made that way for a reason. Nothing wrong with it…but it’s why men and women have their roles. Working to echo others strengths and weaknesses
@@Morrow45105 that is flawed logic. someone isn't "created" or born to be more emotional in others. it's just socially acceptable for women to express their emotions and not men. these concepts of what women should do or what men should do is what humans created
Wrong! Men and women are wired different. Men are more logical based and women are more emotional based. Women are more in touch with their emotions than men are. Both men and women think logically but 99% of the time. Women think emotionally. It's a fact whether you like it or not. Men and women are wired differently.
@@tibodeclercq2131 It's definitely not a first category problem but I think ppl talk abt things they can have control over. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anyone in this video can actively fix the situation is Ukraine.
@@tibodeclercq2131 no one said it was a first category problem. Do you piss your pants over anyone talking about an issue aswell? Or is it just when trans people are mentioned?
Why is 'being emotional' always reduced to 'crying' and therefore showing 'weakness'? There's a whole spectrum of emotions (also positive ones) and ways of expressing them. Being in tune with your emotions and not being afraid of expressing them to others may be one of the strongest character traits one can have and it will prevent so many mental health issues. If you want to talk about men's suicide rates, this is a big part of the solution.
Crying is basically when emotions override logic. The "weakness" is when you can no longer debate and provide points and counterpoints, but instead it's an over emotional crying response that elicits a reaction of sorrow from others.
Because its part of it. I don't know what you mean with being in tune with you emotions, but if it means that you're able to recognize what and why are you feeling things I agree. We express emotions but some of them are not for show; we have to deal with them alone, and being able to do so makes you stronger, not sharing them.
@@avilio6574 Can you give me an example of emotions that you must deal with alone? I agree that in certain situations you have to be able to contain your emotions at the time, for example in the workplace. But when you go and have a drink with a friend after a tough day, I think you must be able to express and discuss those same emotions. That's how you process emotions. If you have no-one to confide in, to be vulnerable with, you will inevitably feel alone and get stuck with these negative emotions. Which results in depression or violence as an outlet. That's not strength, that's creating mental health issues.
@@PlayafromtheHimalayas Crying is simply a biological response to any type of strong emotion, including happiness. Some people cry easily, which isn't because they're 'overly emotional' or weak, it's simply how their bodies react. Men also tend to forget that when they react angry and aggressive in certain situations, they are actually the overly emotional ones.
@@houseofmatrix6174 how? Explain please I'd like to hear your logic on this. How does showing ones emotions that are hardwired into each human brain make them weak?
Try a visit to the podiatrist and a more comfortable pair of shoes. The narrative suggests that gender is fluid, and simultaneously suggests that the justification for gender reassignment surgery and treatment is that the girl who's trapped in a male body, has an immutable male identity. Both can't be true
I really appreciate that they brought in people of different ages, ethnicities and experiences on both sides. This was about as respectful as this conversation could’ve been.
@@matheust.2717 thank you, I didn't know him. But also could be Buck is less celeb than I think in general US population than in trans related people from other countries like me. :-)
@@peanutbutter8986 Yeah it was interesting. He completely dismantled the trans pronoun argument. But I wonder how it would have gone with these trans people. They have more experience and use common sense. Leading to more sophisticated arguments. I would've loved to see that
Men absolutely can cry. As a therapist, you might be surprised to know that men cry just as much. It is human. It is healing. Feelings ought to be felt by the body.
@@katieandnick4113 That doesn’t make it impossible. Humans cry. Emotions don’t give a damn about what gender or sex you are. Bottom line is that western social conditioning is what prevents men from crying. It’s *unnatural* to suppress crying. Crying is neither feminine nor masculine.
@@katieandnick4113 as a health professional, let me tell you…that is really not true. At all. Men have been socialized not to cry from day one. Big boys don’t cry, etc. My male clients actually are more emotional and often times cry more. I also have a lot of male clients. Testosterone may have a very minor effect. Once men are given permission to cry…they let it out.
This episode was so much more civil than I ever could have imagined, one of the men literally stopped interrupting another and said "I'm sorry you're still speaking" Almost unfathomable to me but here's the video to prove it.
@@kornuithildr4129 yeah you must not have watched any other middle ground videos because most of the time its people yelling over each other and not listening to what the other side has to say.
that one dude: "it's okay to suffer in silence" him later, trying to say male privilege isn't real: "men commit suicide at higher rates than women" like sir... you're almost there, you just gotta connect the dots
The thing is, men use lethal means of force, however; Women attempt it more-- so is that an indicator that they're more screwed up? You just gotta connect the dots 😏
@@zachman5150 exactly. Women attempt it more. In fact almost every girl Ik had attempted it but mostly by just trying to swallow too many pills or something. Men on the other hand will jump off cliffs, hang themselves, shoot themselves and the like with a super high success rate. This implies that men are generally wayyyy more depressed and genuinely see no way out
‘Accepting society for what it is’ doesn’t make people happy, it makes them indifferent to suffering that doesn’t affect them. Indifference is not happiness. Society can and should be continuously improved upon.
Yes, and all biological creatures need to evolve in order to be better suited for the new environment, both socially and literally. What worked back then may not work now, especially if what "worked" back then glossed over the plight of other groups of people.
@@Nadia-id4bu the short answer: you can only control yourself and how you respond to things, you can’t control the way society is or how it responds to things.
I lost a mother when I was 11 to cancer, I accepted it for what it is but in no way did it make me indifferent to missing her or to anyone else having to go through something similar. You conflate acceptance with indifference, acceptance is realizing the reality that's presented in front of you and not simply trying to upend everything at the cost of social cohesion just so we ourselves can feel better while everyone else is more confused than ever.
If showing your emotions by crying is seen as weakness, surely showing your emotions by getting angry or losing your temper should also be seen as weakness...
@@wd4440 That was literally my point, that a lot of guys will act like crying is weakness but losing your temper and being aggressive makes you an "alpha" or something...
Being unable to control your temper is definitely seen as a weakness, yup. Nobody disagrees. That doesn't mean that anger is useless and can't be channeled into something powerful though. But throwing a tantrum? Weakness.
EXACTLY!! I ALWAYS tell men they are being emotional as well by being angry and using force. Thats the same as crying. So yes men can be 100% emotional people
I love how Buck kept nodding his head to some of the opposing side points. All around, this was a civil discussion and I’m glad that there were no arguments being had.
@@zachman5150 I will admit he got better towards the end but yeah, I suppose some of the stuff coming out of any of their mouths did leave me shocked. Doesn't mean it's the only thing I took away from this all of the convo though. :)
@@breadletsky473 well,, you can't say that every single girl ever lays on the ground and cries because that's "what girls do" based on the few girls you know ..
when he said that i cringed. especially when he said “we aren’t talking about the 1920s”..a lot of things are systematic because of what happened in history
@George Floyd May Rot in Hell isnt the alpha theory a super chad thing anyway? I dont know of any important individual that spends 1 second of their day considering wether theyre alpha beta sigma omega ...its all more subversive capitalist bullpoo.
They need a curve ball question when everyone is just standing like "should learning a kickflip be required in schools?" And just see the reaction lol just a tension breaker of sorts
Damn this one was a rollercoaster, you can really see in some of their eyes the hurt they feel, but verbally are being respectful. When Clarkson tells the trans men they are not men, I was ready to see everything blow up.
@@Bedfastfoil I was also surprised when things went so smoothly...But I think there was a cut in the video around the argument so they may have cut that part out, nonetheless, a very civil session!
I'm going to be honest, it would not be the same, nobody would care if femininity disappeared. Masculinity, on the other hand, can be a issue due to the large number of values that society intrinsically associated with males.
@@isaacvazquez627 not true, straight biological men would care if feminity disappear! Whether they know it or not , straight men are attracted to feminine features and traits
Please don't ever just 'suffer in silence', men, women, or any one in between. Its ok to share your emotions with other people, it doesn't make you weak, I think it actually makes you stronger to be able to open yourself up to other people.
This is one of the calmest Middle Ground videos I've ever seen, lol. I appreciate and respect everyone's perspective here and it was nice to see very little yelling.
Something that confused me was about 30 minutes in, one guy said he gets his validation from within. Earlier in the video, they were saying they feel less manly when a woman doesn't need them. Is it just me or do these two trains of thought go completely against one another?
Who are we kidding- it's clear these kinds of men are the most vulnerable when it comes to feeding that ego externally. Interesting to point that the validation they seek is just as much (if not more) from other men as from the women they surround themselves with 🤷♀️
I’m actually surprised at how well articulated this conversation was and how respectful both sides were. Thank you all for just being nice, respectful human beings
Wow, this was very powerful. I can't get enough of witnessing people being respectful and open to letting others different from themselves share their unique, personal experiences. Incredible.
Yeah, I like that as well. Just guys being respectful with each other. Reminds me of this warrior weekend I attended, where everybody accepted all types of guys, with all types of sexualities, not just biological straight guys.
Can we please have a video between lesbians and gay men? I think there’s a really important conversation to be had there about femininity and masculinity in terms of gender roles, social perceptions and sexism that is still very rife and real in the LGBT+ community.
Only thing I feel empathetic for is the fact they are living in a delusion. What angers me is that fact they are trying to push that delusion on everyone else and if people don't agree then they are a bigot ect ect. It's disgusting that has went on for so long
@@MissLadyG99 cuz they give off a false narrative of women, their saying how they think women feel as fact… that’s what’s wrong with the people nowadays
If you're ever in an argument with someone that goes crazy as soon as you mention they may have privilege replace the word with advantage. Got this concept through to a lot of people by using the disadvantage and advantage concept.
I think for me it’a the whole “men have it better than women” thing that’s shoved in our faces in every piece of media. It’s simply just untrue and divisive given the many advantages and disadvantages we both have.
@@mogensgallardo3288 I would disagree. There’s plenty of advantages women have over men and Vice versa. The obvious one is even now in Ukraine they won’t allow any males 13 to 60 years old to leave in order to fight. Not only is that alway something men are always expected to do for war but in daily life. You’re a coward if you don’t confront physical confrontation to protect yourself or others. Not saying I disagree with it but it is what it is. Of course there is the men lose custody 90% of the time along with that women are always granted doubt of mischievous or irresponsible behavior. Women are incarcerated for shorter times for similar crimes. And on top of that women use sex appeal to their advantage a lot, so much that sometimes it’s a career (only fans). And this is just a few things.
This was the most productive and healthy debates that I’ve seen about this or relating topics. I think the representation was immaculate and this is the best this conversation could’ve been. Thank you so much for this engaging and educational content.
Suffering in silence is the worst thing you can do to yourself and this is something men have lived with as this unspoken rule and look at where it leads.
@@boguszmakowski2357 knowing when you need help and asking for help are 2 very different things. suffering in silence is when you know you need help but dont ask.
Suffering in silence and getting through it makes you become very very strong and independent and you can survive alone but staying alone or if you don’t get through it which is likely you will break and or be unhappy. I got numb to a degree of feeling to a degree and I’m wondering from time to time if I even live. It derived from trust issues and maybe it’s how I developed. It’s not that I like being alone it’s that I have yet to meet someone
@@namedasurname3968 I mean no, it really isn't that hard. There's only one new word and you already seem to know what it means, so either you're willfully ignorant or you're the one who's been brainwashed.
One of the hardest parts of the video as a woman was when they were talking about male privilege and how men don't have it. These men never had to call a friend when they're walking late at night, never had to worry about someone following them in the subways, etc. I do understand that women have privileges in other areas such as custody battles, etc. but in my experience, men have more privilege when it comes to safety and respect.
@@aglioeoilo no ones invalidating that. What they’re explaining is everyone has their own privilege but you’re solely picking out make privilege and portraying it is were better
i love the fact that this was supposed to be a conversation about individual masculinity and it actually just turned into men speaking on their perceived issues of women
How is Brandon gonna say that Men should suffer in silence but then also say that Men commit suicide more often a minute later as if those two statements don’t contradict themselves? 💀
Because it's how men have been wired for survival ultimately. Men who can control their emotions, stoic in the face of adversity, assertive and motivated instead of passive and lazy, who remain analytical even when upset or angry, just were able to survive better over the past millions of years. If a family member passed away, our grandfathers still had to work in the mines the next day or do some other laborious job WHILE grieving. Any mental health issues that would inhibit our grandfathers from working would result in the failure of our families. If there was a war between tribes or countries, the men who fought in them had to control their emotions. We have been wired to be this way. And if you aren't built like this then society would be tough for you, but that doesn't mean we should not want men who cannot control their emotions.
@@TheStoicBrowser many men CANNOT control their emotions tho. The amount of unprovoked violence we hear about that men start is too much. There are men killing their entire families over nonsense. There are too many men who act like they are in control of their emotions but they are overgrown children who hurt others. I dont see this level of emotional instability from women.
His entire platform is a big contradiction. I’m not a liberal or a conservative but he has skewed and problematic views on the Black community as a collective. His wife is White, which is fine, but what he does is put Black women down in the process to praise the White race of women. The fact that he tried to do the “what aboutisms” when they discussed r*pe and cat calling, it was VERY disingenuous. I don’t even think he believed what he said.
"some people believe that men need to cry and lay on the ground and be feminine like women" crying is not a gendered activity lmfao it's a natural human response
I’m not a woman, but also I didn’t think that lying on the ground crying was something particularly commonplace of women. Like not saying it’s an abnormal response depending on the circumstance, but the point comes across like women have no restraint on their emotions
@@AA-5690 men usually cry less because then were raised to think that boys shouldn’t cry or get made fun of in school for doing so. My boyfriend cries a lot (like when watching media) but he doesn’t cry around others. Similarly, I (a woman), used to a cry a lot but now don’t because I was told a lot as a child that I was too sensitive.
It's super weird that people use Timothee as an example of non-masculine men. His face and style is overall very masculine. Is it just because he's skinnier and actually knows how to dress himself in clothes that fit and aren't plain black?
@@bmwjourdandunngoddess6024 Because I don't think two of the transmen look masculine at all lol. Little bit of facial hair but, they're super short. Sit effeminatly. Not saying that's a bad thing, i just don't think they look masculine in my own opinion.
I really love that Buck nods in acceptance of what others are saying--even when he may disagree on some part of it. It is so validating to have someone listen and acknowledge what someone is saying. Its so wonderful to see great listeners in action.
I don’t know if this is just me, I think saying women are taking on a more masculine role as in being “independent” is quite offensive. Women have always been independent people but the world didn’t want women to be independent for so long. I feel as if my independence is more of me finding my femininity not me finding the masculine side of me.
This is so hard to watch as a woman, there are such general statements that they view as factual about womens perceptions and feelings just isn’t true? There’s just SO MUCH projected feelings. If I took a shot every time I cringed, I’d be dead.
I'm seriously convinced just right off the bat that most if not all of those conservative "men" don't view the trans men as anything other than manly women and if there's anything they've made very clear throughout their comments it's that they look down on and most certainly don't respect women. It's infuriating to have to listen to.
I was taught from an early age that crying in public (or even crying at all) is unacceptable and weak and that I should blame myself for all of my problems, no excuses. I still have difficulty understanding what toxicity is.
clarkson said "we have to accept society as it is". and my question to him is: who said the way society is right now is the only true way?? Is this a rule? A law? who says that's final?
What if everyone said that during the era of slavery? What if everyone said that during the Americans being oppressed under British rule? What would change?
@@MsDudette21 the way you think about biological sex is very wrong, pls go and read some bio books, there are more then two sexes (not talking about gender, I'm talking about what a person is born as.. their sex) sex is just as huge of a spectrum as the present day gender is
Ironic coming from a gay guy too. Unfortunately many of them (white) have become very comfortable with maintaining the status quo now that they’re included in it
Brandon really said men should “suffer in silence” and then say that men have the highest rate of suicide and didn’t think maybe there’s a correlation.
To suffer in silence doesn't mean bottle up your emotions 24/7. It means to bottle them up in that particular circumstance and let it all out later in a better setting. That's different from men who suppress sadness/guilt/hurt all the time.
There isn't Men need support structures Men didn't cry in the 60s , but they had support structures so suicide rates were low Feminists destroyed those support structures
so then how do you explain the fact that women self mutilation is more prevalent amongst women, but not suicide? men have a higher suicide rate simply because our genetic profile is to be more aggressive and impulsive than women.
@@shuarma0 genetic profile? saying aggression results in suicide is a stretch, also suicide isnt usually a quick impulsive decision, its rather something u think over for a long period of time.
You can tell that buck has seen/experienced it all, hes open and sees and accepts everyone’s takes without ego and it is really respectable. We need more people like buck
@Lyler Taley I'm assuming you're acting patronizing and not giving any actual response because you don't have one, you're also overcompensating a bit ngl
"It's OK to suffer in silence" No, it's literally not. There are way too many studies on how that is literally the worst way to deal with trauma. The notion that this is OK and even encouraged is one of the biggest examples of toxic masculinity in our society.
It might be ok but that doesnt mean society is structured that way, i got kneed in the stomach today, worse pain i felt in a while, a bunch of people crowded around me and i just layed there groaning. I had to, and afterwards i felt proud of myself. I didnt cry, i didnt show my weakness. I got up, shaked the other guys hand, and kept playing. I dont want to imagine the social impact of me crying.
I really disagreed with Brandon a lot but I really appreciate how he listened and spoke calmly and with a level head. It seemed like he came at it from a place of genuine curiosity and I respect that even if I don't see things the same way.
I was a little worried at the start when they started raising their voices but this one ended very respectfully and I feel both sides were able to learn from the other. Fine work, boys
Seeing both sides respect eachother is really nice to see, in a lot of these videos i see the two sides usually start yelling and such, really nice sight to see
So as someone who studies psychology, just talk about how you feel. You don't have to cry, you can cry but just showing some sort of vulnerability just allows you to be healthier and less stressed which is better for you.
Gosh America is really an infectious cancer country or literally one of the worst can’t imagine Living in a country where Preferences and sexuality and race is a big deal
Asking for help and not closing up like a hedgehog is something I've worked on a lot in therapy. Just getting your emotions out of your body and bouncing them off of someone you trust can can help so much in figuring them out. You can only do so much analyzing of yourself without a second opinion.
@@bdrummmm This is an ignorant comment. Most countries, especially ones in Europe, are much more evolved than The United States. People cant just "Oh its just America in general". North America is a continent containing several countries, The United States is one of them. Canada is north of us and has universal health care and free education just like most European countries. They're doing much better than we are in regards to their citizens.
i find it so funny that they're talking about catcalling/public attacks as a basis of who's stronger or gets preyed on or whatever. but nobody ever asked, who, overwhelmingly, are the ones doing the attacking?
@@rima.mv2147 women tend to start the physical fight it’s kinda messed up when u consider the fact that lesbian relationships on average have disproportionate high rate of domestic violence against each other
"I just use _their_ name... I feel like I'm giving into the narrative that men can be women and women can be men if I use the pronouns that _they_ want." I've gotta say seeing a conservative use they/them to avoid properly gendering a trans person is a new one to me.
as soon as i saw how much he tried to avoid using the correct pronouns for his trans friend, to the point he started using they/them, i knew what arguments that dude would be bringing up 😭
I'm sorry but I feel so bad for that guy's friend 😭 imagine actually liking someone that disagrees with your existence. He must really like him if he stays his friend despite that. (Not judging btw, I've been through that too, it's just,, upsetting)
I don’t think he was using they/them pronouns. People have been using “their” instead of “he or she” in grammar for a long time grammatically speaking. It’s incorrect technically but that’s just the language that has been used. We gotta realize how recently the concept of choosing pronouns is.
@@cobrabosse Two things. One: if people have been using a word a certain way for a long time then it is not technically incorrect. Language is living and spoken, and trying to apply rules to it that go against the instincts or understanding of native speakers is called prescriptivism. This is generally frowned upon. Second: he was using the words “they”, “them”, and “their” in place of a proper noun (his friends name). That’s a pronoun. The part of speech that he was using is called a pronoun, and the use of these pronouns for a single known individual is generally what conservatives rally against. I was just noting how interesting it was.
yes a looooot of "men commit suicide" more than women actually, but when you also wanna say stuff like you "don't wanna cry in front of your family" and just want to "suffer in silence" you have to wonder why suicide rates are so high in men... these points are contradictory and some men (not always by fault of their own) are making their lives harder :/
The main reason why men's suicide rate is so high is because they often use irreversible methods (e.g. guns, tall buildings, nooses). Dealing with men depression is much different than women's, and much of the psychological literature treat them the same. That's not an endorsement of the "suffer in silence" point, but you don't help mens depression by simply "talking it out" like you would with women on average.
hit the nail on the head. thats why men commit suicide more. if u wanna get technical women attempt more, but men succeed, for lack of a better word, more in committing suicide. women generally try to overdose while men are more likely to use a gun. men are so used to aggressive behavior that they resort to killing themselves in a very harmful way. men need to be more emotionally available to each other and society in general needs to tell men having feelings isnt a weakness. it simply makes u human
I love whenever people talk about mens suicide its always in a way that blames men. Men need to do this or that. Its not treated as a mental illness issue its treated as a fault of them. Funny as fuck and super hypocritical.
@@HawkUnleashed no its not. We're trying to understand the root of certain ttitudes and why men are so depressed lol. It's never anyone's fault but when a literal patriarchy upholds those attitudes that cause men lower on the social spectrum to hurt themselves we have to address it.
@@HawkUnleashed no one's treating it as a fault, however you can't say men shouldn't express their emotions and then be surprised when they do it in a harmful way. They don't know how to do it properly. Part of trying to address the issue is looking for possible reasons why the rates are so high, and that's one of those reasons. How about stop taking everything as an attack towards men when we are literally discussing something that would be beneficial to them
Suffer in silence is never OK. Having a cry is much better than “ suffering in silence.“ suffering as silence is what leads a whole bunch of people into channeling their emotions in negative way such as anger, abuse, drug, alcoholism, self harm, etc.
that’s a normative statement, perhaps someone who struggles with channeling and dealing with emotion would fit under your opinion, but some people may just find it easier to deal with their emotions within and feel more comfortable in doing so, without fitting under your opinion
@@orm2236 Actually no, even those who feel better being quiet about it, do so because of shame and embarassment. Even the most introverted people want atleast one understanding person to lend them a shoulder, where they can open up about themselves. Humans are social beings, civil people who solve things with discussion. Most people are horrible at dealing with trauma all alone.
Makeup, wigs, robes and high-heeled shoes - we don't consider these things to be typically masculine nowadays, but they were once considered masculine - especially for opulent, upper-class men. I think the very fact that this aesthetic instability exists suggests that masculinity and femininity are not unchanging ideals and never have been.
@@4tk37 wow, such a smart and educational counter argument. Go back to groveling alone and not being to have genuine connections with the people in your life because you refuse to see the side of someone who sees things different than you.
@@apessimist903 i was not being offensive. I'm bringing awareness to the fact that you are not obligated to believe in other people's ideology or philosophy. The offensive thing for someone to do is to lie to them to their face.
@David Emblow I disagree, I have never heard anyone claim that they are better than anyone else for having experienced hardship. Personally, my hardships have made me a worse person, they make it harder to grow. The conversation should actually be about accountability, because that's what people are really asking for. If someone is abusive or a system is abusive, it should be recognized as such, so that they/it can change for the better.
How can someone encourage the narrative of 'men should suffer in silence/not cry etc' then also talk about Male Suicide rates as a lack of privilege? How don't you connect those two issues and understand them as cause/effect? I don't think I could ever do a show like this because I couldn't sit and talk with people who don't respect me or my identity. Huge respect to these Trans Men for being able to do that Edit: I've muted notifs so by all means continue arguing with yourself, have a nice day :)
@@ace2311 no I have many conversations with people who differ in opinion to me when it comes to politics etc. I don't have conversations with people who fundamentally disagree with my identity because unsurprisingly that's incredibly stressful and dysphoria enducing.
@Gavin Reed Do you have any sources to back up your claim that men are "designed to be less emotional from birth"? I'd be curious to know if any research exists to back that up.
@leshithoshithonski8168 I mean have you ever seen someone like Ben Shapiro interview a trans person, or just liberal in general in front of an audience? Every single time, one side stutters, and the other yells, and eventually in devolves into both sides talking over each other and never making an effort to see the other side.
What percentage of a population do lgbt people make up? Yet the amount of attention they have gotten over the past few years is astonishing. Do you think that happened because they are the calm, quiet ones? If conservatives were as unproductive as you claim, we would have no semblance of society at all.
I'm sorry, what?? When Clarkson said "Anybody that wants to fundamentally change society and change gender roles, that's not happiness. And if we want to fight for acceptance, we need to start with acceptance...which is accepting society for what it is." So what I'm hearing him say, is society is what it is and we shouldn't strive for a better one? That's absolutely bonkers.
@@kasunkavishka2976 It's pretty clear that not all conservative beliefs discriminate LGBTQ individuals if there are queer conservatives. Just like there's religious people who're more progressive.
Jubilee can be off the charts cringe sometimes, especially when tackling some of these culture war topics, but they absolutely crushed this one. Excellent panel and the longer form did the topic so much justice. Excellent work
So true! I like that they do stuff for all the different ppl in their audience. Like they'll do these but then they'll do lighter almost silly videos like "take someone on a date based on their outfit!" Its a nice balance, their team is obv full of ppl with ideas and it's cool that they make them a reality! Prob why theyre so successful 😄
Jubilee, I love your disclaimer message at the beginning of each video. There is humanity in us all, and I love that you encourage others, despite how controversial these topics can be, to approach each other with empathy and kindness. Keep doing these videos. It’s great to see people with such different lives and views to come together on something, anything.
If someone is also reading this and came down to the replies, chose VERY carefully who you want to share your suffering with. Most people are not trustworthy, and letting all your emotions out to the wrong person could encourage them to use it against you. While suffering in silence isn't great also don't go around telling most people what you are going through, they would either just make fun of you for not being able to cope or use it against you, been through that before. So be incredibly careful about who you share your stuff with. Because bottom line is, if you share your stuff with most people they will make it even worse for you by saying the wrong things.
Clarkson and his denying that people NEED external validation was so frustrating. If everyone he encountered misgendered him and invalidated his identity he would be a mess
Anyone who believes that an individual needs zero validation outside of themselves, especially during developmentally critical stages of their lives, is either lying or very unknowledgeable.
They’re missing the whole point when they said “women dress masculine to feel empowered” No. The empowerment is not there, it’s in the ability to CHOSE to dress how you’d like, to define for themselves how they want to be. Deciding our ways for ourselves is empowering, (and for some it’s being masculine, feminine, or even androgynous) and not putting on a suit to “”””be like”””” men who are empowered (in power?) Have they talked with a woman? Because they all say that! That they feel empowered to be *themselves*, the emphasis is always on the choice and not the clothing !
That was the issue here. They thought that empowered meant in power. They are not the same. While I agree that women have always been empowered, in theory this works as a statement but looking at history and correlating that with actually power is just silly. Great comment!
Jacob had one of the best points on the panel - granted results will vary but instilling pride and confidence in young LGBT kids and toughing them up to the world’s criticism is a a huge factor - for every child!!! But especially for the ones who want to express theirselves in that manner.. the world is harsh to everyone. It’s life, you can’t change the way the world operates
As a women I agree with needing community and togetherness from time to time, to support and strengthen each other mutually IF there is need. However if you have to rely too much on others, it can only lead to inequality and trouble: either you are burdening someone with your problems (emotional or financial) and they are the ones having to improve your situation & support you - or you are the one doing that. And once this inequality is presented, there will inevitably be a breaking point for "the provider" where they will be like "sorry, I can't do this anymore" and leave you. Which is why it is better to strive for independence if you can - you have your own self to support and your own battles to fight.
@@raghuvenkatesan6792 Be it men or woman, in general try to take care of yourself and only rely on them IF you need to :). Besides unless you want to reproduce, there is no need for a certain sex specifically.
Listen I LOVE being feminine, even hyper feminine. I love pink and dresses and cute and pretty things and like spending time on looking nice. But I’m also in the top 10% of my program, and working on strength training, and just got accepted to a top law school. My femininity doesn’t make me weak or fragile, it’s just another part of me. Femininity is really just an identity and has next to nothing to do with gender and doesn’t make men nor women inherently weaker for it. edit; if you’re gonna be talking abt me in the comments please use she/her pronouns!
Yes, explained perfectly 👏 Femininity doesn't make us weak, it's just a part of who we are. What does make us weak is the biological aspect that women are physically weaker than men. It's not necessarily about femininity though, just womanhood.
All of the things you've said are not even inherently feminine, pink, dresses, cute & pretty stuff being associated with women is just a social construct. Edit for clarity : I'm not criticizing what OP said, I agree with her and feel the same. I'm just adding on her comment.
@@Khayran Can you explain why heels were invented for men, but now women use them? Why did men wear dresses (and still do in some cultures), but now it's associated with women? Why is pink a feminine color and blue a masculine color, did nature decide that or was is it humans?
@@elriane94 femininity isn't just what we wear, it's how we wear it. Things like frilly skirts and sundresses can't be compared to kilns that Scottish men wear or thobes like the Arabs wear because women's dresses are designed to fit the female body. Same with high heels. Rockstar boots look okay on men, but if they wear women's heels then they resemble dragqueens. Femininity is also behavior, as in soft, emotional, caring and the like of making one's self pretty. Blue and pink are just colors btw. Some people just prefer pink over others, idk. I'd say I'm girly but don't really prefer pink.
If slaves around the world accepted society for what it was they would have never been free. If women accepted that they were never gonna be able to vote, they would still not be voting. Personal opinion but it was a very ignorant statement. Also we can never judge the current state of the world without understanding and knowing how it came to be.
This was easily the best episode of middle ground, it wasn’t too chaotic to the point where no progress was made but it also wasn’t too timid to the point where everyone was just agreeing to disagree, this was some really amazing discourse to watch.
I was thinking the same… even though I don’t agree with his thoughts… the way he states his thoughts makes me want and accept him for who he is. I really like Buck.
That's the voice that should be amplified I think not the crazy be like us or or your evil people. Buck was the most rational person on either side and I like Brandon Tatum he's sincere but that buck guy doesn't allow his belief to be paramount over others and Brandon does that sometimea
@Gavin Reed Effective as In feeding into toxic masculinity and creating a lot of toxic society norms ?? Cause if it’s that way then yes 100%agree. The way you guys use “evolutionary effective” as if the evolution we’re in now is perfect will always amaze me 😃As if that’s the reason society has been successful ..like we’re successful now because of those traits ,when in fact that’s actually the very reason it’s depleting.
It’s really interesting seeing how people interpret questions differently , for example for the first one I would deff say that masculinity and femininity are both part of a human being and that it can never disappear , you can just suppress it
Umm same, masculinity comes in different forms and it is not disappearing. Those men are just frustrated that there are other people who are not what they envision masculine should be.
Why would that make you sad? That is a true statement. What I find interesting is how people hear and interpret his answer. Can one be vulnerable without breaking down and crying in front of your family or anybody? I agree with his answer. You don't have to do it, it doesn't mean he hasn't or doesn't.
As a non-binary bisexual person who suffered in silence for years pretending to be a straight woman and following stereotypes, I didn't believe in just to fit in... I feel that
why women feel the need to tell men how to express their emotions? I don't get it, lady stay and your lane and let men figure out by themselves or with other men smh
as a woman this is hard to watch, for many reasons but also i’m so sad for men thinking they have to uphold this ideal that they don’t have feelings “it’s ok to suffer is silence sometimes” no it’s ok to have emotions my guy
Its not that they don't wanna show emotion. Its all about how it effects those around them. Sometimes you have to be strong for those around you. Its a mental thing that honesty some people just don't understand. Its kind of like a struggling mother who cries outside the site of their children.
@@TheSaintsfan16 1. If they never express themselves to anyone, it causes mental illness. 2. Never letting your kids see you struggle also causes mental illness 🤷♀️ but there’s a balance. Your kids don’t need to know the details of everything, that would be inappropriate too. But teaching them how to bounce back or how to apologize is important.
Thats what women say, but they dont mean it. I cant remember the amount of times a guy friend has been dumped by his gf because he opened up, because whether you like it or not, most women see that as weakness. There is no benefit for a guy to open up to a women, none.
@@johnfisher8401 I was just thinking this, I even noticed in myself before I grew up and relieved my ignorance, seeing a guy crying right infront of you was a shocking foreign feeling. Now days I do not feel that way, but many women are living in that head space. I dont think a lot of women mean it when they say they do.
fr i keep needing to take breaks watching this because i equally know this conversation is so important and interesting but also cannot stand to hear some of what is being said ahah
@@JoeMama-mg5dk THIS is the best comment because it makes me think..WHY do I have a problem with the sentiments? Is it because they are expressing views that I may not align with? Is it because one person said something I'm absolutely against? Idk. But that's me being human and willing to listen.
Fact check: women attempt suicide more but have a much lower success rate, usually due to less lethal means. Anecdotal evidence: of all the times I have been to a mental hospital, there have always been more women than men.
I dont suffer in silence I suffer in solitude. I also choose that because I made the mistake of grieving my recently deceased mother in front of my ex and she totally lost respect for me after that. The relationship turned very manipulative and abusive because I was in an emotionally vulnerable state so she made the most of that oppurtinity to turn my friends against me as well. Suddenly when I needed my friends the most, I was "too depressing to talk to and negative". So in addition to losing my mother, I lost my relationship AND all those friendships. I know not all girls are like this but I learned a very valuable lesson that year.
I’m so sorry that happened, and I am sorry for your loss. I genuinely hope you find a more loving and respectful life partner. It is okay to be vulnerable and you don’t have to suffer alone. 🫂
@@joeysalazar98 you are very kind and I appreciate your words greatly. But I have been down this road before and I have taken much abuse before this. If anyone is to be let in they will have to prove to me that they are worthy of my vulnerability. Until then I will be open with my boys, and closed to all others.
it's so strange to me that people see critique of toxic masulinity and the existence of trans men as somehow an attack on men. edit: masculinity isn't toxic. nor is it specific to men. toxic masculinity is what is being talked about; if you don't know what that means, look it up or go argue with your strawman somewhere else.
As I see it, one of the main reasons so many men feel that critiquing toxic masculinity is an attack, is because it often gets translated as “stop being masculine.” I think it also doesn’t help that we don’t acknowledge the existence of toxic femininity, or if/when we do, it often gets justified by claiming to be a product of the patriarchy, with the implication being that, even toxic femininity is men’s responsibility to fix.
@conartist j wdym? Men bottling up their emotions has no specific effect on women outside of the net negative effect on society when someone cracks and shoots up a mall. Toxic feminity is attacked all the time. Femme Fatale are usually villains. Noone wants a waste of space that just walks around doing no work and seducing men - it's a dead weight for society and women who rely on it wind up with no societal value when they hit middle age.
He’s nice to listen to, but he was quite disingenuous for parts of the convo. The minute he refused to acknowledge the difference in how men and women would feel while being catcalled or the male privilege in feeling safer in general, I couldn’t take him serious.
I literally cried when luckie mentioned kids needing validation from their parents, it was so annoying how the other side was trying to disregard this fact.
@@ai_battle I mean Kim petras transitioned early and she’s doing amazing. Some kids are. Also various genders have always existed. In various cultures. Your just uneducated and want everyone to cater to that. Point fuck’n blank.
"it's ok to suffer in silence"
"men's suicide rate are higher"
dude, my dude connect the dots
Men are mostly depressed because of lack of purpose and direction.
False equivalents, but there are different dots to connect. Such as that society gives limited resources to men and that they lack purpose or duty. Men don't want to give out emotions because they don't have to or most people don't really want to care about their issues so they must endure and become stoic for they know. Help isn't coming or it won't come in time.
If jubilee was shady the next question after that "suffer in silence" should had been whether forms of masculinity can be toxic.
@@kovacsnovak6745 ^^
you never heard of stocism
The gay conservative guy saying "seeking acceptance starts with accepting society as it is" is the absolute peak of irony. Just 30 years ago, he would _never_ have been accepted if everyone just rolled over and accepted the way society was. How does he think society came to be accepting of gay people? It's from people working to CHANGE society.
THIS!!
Exactly what I thought
society moves in a predictable pattern. Normal? no Secret, Scandal, Threat assessment, Action. you have to accept society is what it is, and that it won't like it, to keep it a secret. and you have to keep it a secret to put the chain in motion.
@@ubergamer0198 republicans want a repressed society.
Gay
I’m just a bit perturbed when I keep hearing feminine traits being referred to as weakness…I’m very feminine and I’ve never fell out on the floor crying. As if we don’t have any self control and the ability to manage our own emotions. That should be a human trait.
Right!! Like uncontrollable emotions aren't the same as simply being in TOUCH with your emotions and being able to feel each one. He's just a well trained drone. He's textbook
Agreed this video made me really angry
Because women are known for being controlled by their emotions. It’s exactly why they were never looked to to lead. Women are made that way for a reason. Nothing wrong with it…but it’s why men and women have their roles. Working to echo others strengths and weaknesses
@@Morrow45105 that is flawed logic. someone isn't "created" or born to be more emotional in others. it's just socially acceptable for women to express their emotions and not men. these concepts of what women should do or what men should do is what humans created
Wrong! Men and women are wired different. Men are more logical based and women are more emotional based. Women are more in touch with their emotions than men are. Both men and women think logically but 99% of the time. Women think emotionally. It's a fact whether you like it or not. Men and women are wired differently.
Kudos to Brandon and Buck to have such a way with their dialog towards the topics presented while being on opposing sides.
You know it’s gonna get toxic when they put a disclaimer at the beginning lol 🍿
You mean interesting debate?
@@tibodeclercq2131 There's always been war. And there's always time for a discussion like this to be sparked.
@@szasbaddest1 yeah but to see it as a first category problem is ridiculous
@@tibodeclercq2131 It's definitely not a first category problem but I think ppl talk abt things they can have control over. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anyone in this video can actively fix the situation is Ukraine.
@@tibodeclercq2131 no one said it was a first category problem. Do you piss your pants over anyone talking about an issue aswell? Or is it just when trans people are mentioned?
Why is 'being emotional' always reduced to 'crying' and therefore showing 'weakness'? There's a whole spectrum of emotions (also positive ones) and ways of expressing them. Being in tune with your emotions and not being afraid of expressing them to others may be one of the strongest character traits one can have and it will prevent so many mental health issues. If you want to talk about men's suicide rates, this is a big part of the solution.
Crying is basically when emotions override logic. The "weakness" is when you can no longer debate and provide points and counterpoints, but instead it's an over emotional crying response that elicits a reaction of sorrow from others.
A lot of men are depressed because they don’t have duty or purpose in life
Because its part of it.
I don't know what you mean with being in tune with you emotions, but if it means that you're able to recognize what and why are you feeling things I agree.
We express emotions but some of them are not for show; we have to deal with them alone, and being able to do so makes you stronger, not sharing them.
@@avilio6574 Can you give me an example of emotions that you must deal with alone? I agree that in certain situations you have to be able to contain your emotions at the time, for example in the workplace. But when you go and have a drink with a friend after a tough day, I think you must be able to express and discuss those same emotions. That's how you process emotions. If you have no-one to confide in, to be vulnerable with, you will inevitably feel alone and get stuck with these negative emotions. Which results in depression or violence as an outlet. That's not strength, that's creating mental health issues.
@@PlayafromtheHimalayas Crying is simply a biological response to any type of strong emotion, including happiness. Some people cry easily, which isn't because they're 'overly emotional' or weak, it's simply how their bodies react. Men also tend to forget that when they react angry and aggressive in certain situations, they are actually the overly emotional ones.
It still baffles me that people see crying and emotion as unmasculine. All humans have emotions men and women.
It is not about a single act of crying making you a woman. It is about overdoing it.
Showing emotions does make you weak.
@@houseofmatrix6174 how? Explain please I'd like to hear your logic on this. How does showing ones emotions that are hardwired into each human brain make them weak?
@@houseofmatrix6174 No it doesn't. But being irrational and lacking common sense does, especially when emotions are involved.
Thank u
Masculinity is not bad. Femininity is not bad. Neither are toxic it's only the people who are acting toxic gender or sex has nothing to do with it.
I 100% agree with you.
true
Facts
I believe women need to be feminine and men need to be masculine as much as possible.
@@TamiTribbiani-z8paccording to whom?????
I'm a woman, and I don't cry on the "ground." I cry when I walk
Genius
Well, you walk on the ground. So, technically, you'd still be crying on the ground.
@@AJ-lm5dl Ha technically we are floating, so I'm technically not touching anything lol
Try a visit to the podiatrist and a more comfortable pair of shoes.
The narrative suggests that gender is fluid, and simultaneously suggests that the justification for gender reassignment surgery and treatment is that the girl who's trapped in a male body, has an immutable male identity. Both can't be true
i’m pretty sure it wasn’t meant literally
I really appreciate that they brought in people of different ages, ethnicities and experiences on both sides. This was about as respectful as this conversation could’ve been.
But if on the one side is one media-experienced celeb, Buck Angel, on the other side better also should be one.
@@matheust.2717 thank you, I didn't know him. But also could be Buck is less celeb than I think in general US population than in trans related people from other countries like me. :-)
Literally! And the fact that the episode was long. I felt like these people really had the time and screen-time to voice themself fully
@@kimmietwining4474 That would have been very interesting. He did do a debate on Dr. Phil regarding gender and pronouns not that long ago.
@@peanutbutter8986 Yeah it was interesting. He completely dismantled the trans pronoun argument. But I wonder how it would have gone with these trans people. They have more experience and use common sense. Leading to more sophisticated arguments. I would've loved to see that
Men absolutely can cry. As a therapist, you might be surprised to know that men cry just as much. It is human. It is healing. Feelings ought to be felt by the body.
Male levels of testosterone actually do make it harder, physically, to cry.
@@katieandnick4113 true but doesn’t mean they cant though because they still cry
@@katieandnick4113 That doesn’t make it impossible. Humans cry. Emotions don’t give a damn about what gender or sex you are. Bottom line is that western social conditioning is what prevents men from crying. It’s *unnatural* to suppress crying. Crying is neither feminine nor masculine.
@@katieandnick4113 as a health professional, let me tell you…that is really not true. At all. Men have been socialized not to cry from day one. Big boys don’t cry, etc. My male clients actually are more emotional and often times cry more. I also have a lot of male clients. Testosterone may have a very minor effect. Once men are given permission to cry…they let it out.
Just as much? That is not true.
This episode was so much more civil than I ever could have imagined, one of the men literally stopped interrupting another and said "I'm sorry you're still speaking"
Almost unfathomable to me but here's the video to prove it.
Adults exist you know.
@@kornuithildr4129 yeah you must not have watched any other middle ground videos because most of the time its people yelling over each other and not listening to what the other side has to say.
@@kornuithildr4129 and yet you're not one
@@kornuithildr4129 and still most adults arent like that if u were one ud know.
it’s almost as if all humans are not the same
that one dude: "it's okay to suffer in silence"
him later, trying to say male privilege isn't real: "men commit suicide at higher rates than women"
like sir... you're almost there, you just gotta connect the dots
literally 😂😂
He's misexplaining stoicism.
And not showing emotion is not the main reason for suicide, it can/has been part of it.
The thing is, men use lethal means of force, however; Women attempt it more-- so is that an indicator that they're more screwed up? You just gotta connect the dots 😏
it is okay to suffer in silence just if your gonna do it know your strong enough to do it
@@zachman5150 exactly. Women attempt it more. In fact almost every girl Ik had attempted it but mostly by just trying to swallow too many pills or something. Men on the other hand will jump off cliffs, hang themselves, shoot themselves and the like with a super high success rate. This implies that men are generally wayyyy more depressed and genuinely see no way out
‘Accepting society for what it is’ doesn’t make people happy, it makes them indifferent to suffering that doesn’t affect them. Indifference is not happiness. Society can and should be continuously improved upon.
he was talking as if he wouldve enjoyed living in 1300
Yes, and all biological creatures need to evolve in order to be better suited for the new environment, both socially and literally. What worked back then may not work now, especially if what "worked" back then glossed over the plight of other groups of people.
Why should I accept the society for what it is if the society can't accept me for what I am?
@@Nadia-id4bu the short answer: you can only control yourself and how you respond to things, you can’t control the way society is or how it responds to things.
I lost a mother when I was 11 to cancer, I accepted it for what it is but in no way did it make me indifferent to missing her or to anyone else having to go through something similar. You conflate acceptance with indifference, acceptance is realizing the reality that's presented in front of you and not simply trying to upend everything at the cost of social cohesion just so we ourselves can feel better while everyone else is more confused than ever.
If showing your emotions by crying is seen as weakness, surely showing your emotions by getting angry or losing your temper should also be seen as weakness...
It is one
It is that way
@@wd4440 That was literally my point, that a lot of guys will act like crying is weakness but losing your temper and being aggressive makes you an "alpha" or something...
Being unable to control your temper is definitely seen as a weakness, yup. Nobody disagrees. That doesn't mean that anger is useless and can't be channeled into something powerful though. But throwing a tantrum? Weakness.
EXACTLY!! I ALWAYS tell men they are being emotional as well by being angry and using force. Thats the same as crying. So yes men can be 100% emotional people
I love how Buck kept nodding his head to some of the opposing side points. All around, this was a civil discussion and I’m glad that there were no arguments being had.
Yeah, that was very sweet.
"they want us to cry and lay on the ground, like a woman" wow that speaks volumes
Was that really your take away from that? wow
@@zachman5150 I will admit he got better towards the end but yeah, I suppose some of the stuff coming out of any of their mouths did leave me shocked. Doesn't mean it's the only thing I took away from this all of the convo though. :)
@@rush_amanda to be fair that is what girls do, or more so the ones I've met.
@@breadletsky473 well,, you can't say that every single girl ever lays on the ground and cries because that's "what girls do" based on the few girls you know ..
@@sleepymars5991 in general women are much more open about their emotions, and more emotional at that
As a woman, I don’t not feel empowered because of the vise president. I feel empowered by my own damn self.
for reaaal
wish more women thought lik you
Vise president?
when he said that i cringed. especially when he said “we aren’t talking about the 1920s”..a lot of things are systematic because of what happened in history
@George Floyd May Rot in Hell isnt the alpha theory a super chad thing anyway? I dont know of any important individual that spends 1 second of their day considering wether theyre alpha beta sigma omega ...its all more subversive capitalist bullpoo.
They need a curve ball question when everyone is just standing like "should learning a kickflip be required in schools?" And just see the reaction lol just a tension breaker of sorts
Is a hot dog a sandwich?
@@monissiddiqui6559 this would get way more heated than any of the questions in the video lol. Same with “Is water wet?”
CGC
everyone should try. that'd be fun
Yeah!!! Something straight out of left field like, : ankle or calf length socks?"
Convinced Gilbert’s “friend” is a coworker that’s about to file an HR complaint, cause ain’t no way.
Thinking the same thing. There’s no way they’re friends
I felt real sad for his "friend".
No fr
Damn this one was a rollercoaster, you can really see in some of their eyes the hurt they feel, but verbally are being respectful. When Clarkson tells the trans men they are not men, I was ready to see everything blow up.
he was just being honest.
@@ttrager3 hey there. I’m not sure I understand. Just to clarify, are you saying that then trans men don’t want to be called men?
@@Lucas-nf9xc I was surprised it just didn't get more heated then it did after Clarkson's comment.
@@Bedfastfoil I was also surprised when things went so smoothly...But I think there was a cut in the video around the argument so they may have cut that part out, nonetheless, a very civil session!
To be honest it's the truth not a nice one though.
Doing a female version of this would be very interesting. Great video!
@Ashley link?
just searched and didn't see it
They would all just start crying lol🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@ClashOfGamesV1 wtf bro
I'm going to be honest, it would not be the same, nobody would care if femininity disappeared. Masculinity, on the other hand, can be a issue due to the large number of values that society intrinsically associated with males.
@@isaacvazquez627 not true, straight biological men would care if feminity disappear! Whether they know it or not , straight men are attracted to feminine features and traits
Please don't ever just 'suffer in silence', men, women, or any one in between. Its ok to share your emotions with other people, it doesn't make you weak, I think it actually makes you stronger to be able to open yourself up to other people.
Cap cap cap this is a trap dont do it men ^
Loser mindset from Abigail
@@Madyro trust me we not. Nobody really cares.
@@Madyro So if someone is having suicidal thoughts they shouldn't get help? (By your logic of course).
@@warm_lettuce473 you r putting words in my mouth never said that goofie
This is one of the calmest Middle Ground videos I've ever seen, lol. I appreciate and respect everyone's perspective here and it was nice to see very little yelling.
ya frl n the comments rnt being super annoying either... very refreshing
Something that confused me was about 30 minutes in, one guy said he gets his validation from within. Earlier in the video, they were saying they feel less manly when a woman doesn't need them. Is it just me or do these two trains of thought go completely against one another?
‼️‼️
fr. him saying that he's never needed outside validation because he has it from within was a plain lie
I noticed that too. Very hypocritical.
Who are we kidding- it's clear these kinds of men are the most vulnerable when it comes to feeding that ego externally. Interesting to point that the validation they seek is just as much (if not more) from other men as from the women they surround themselves with 🤷♀️
He is lying to himself
They should have a convo between trans people and people who de-transitioned.
Wow. That would be very interesting
This needs more likes!
i feel like they'd agree on most things because both felt disattachment to their agab at a point.
Yes
🎯🎯🎯
I’m actually surprised at how well articulated this conversation was and how respectful both sides were. Thank you all for just being nice, respectful human beings
This is how men communicate with each other
Remember, this is an edited video.
@@truthseeker73able Conservatives are not people and therefore cannot be men
Yeah, throw the purple haired trans supporters that go to rallys in here and its a yelling match. These are reasonable people
@@truthseeker73able Stated like someone with deep insecurities.
Wow, this was very powerful. I can't get enough of witnessing people being respectful and open to letting others different from themselves share their unique, personal experiences. Incredible.
Yeah, I like that as well. Just guys being respectful with each other. Reminds me of this warrior weekend I attended, where everybody accepted all types of guys, with all types of sexualities, not just biological straight guys.
Privilege doesn't mean your life is fantastic and you don't suffer. It means you don't have to tackle the same issues or challenges that others do.
👌🏾👌🏾👌🏾👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
The problem is that so many people like to throw that word around as a means of having justification to attack or be prejudiced against other people.
I get so frustrated when people don’t understand it or worse, just refuse to. Makes my blood boil.
But no one does.... Regardless of race or gender. No one will face the same exact walk as anyone else.
@@GenXfrom75 yes, and often tines that is because of gender, sex, skin color ect.
Can we please have a video between lesbians and gay men? I think there’s a really important conversation to be had there about femininity and masculinity in terms of gender roles, social perceptions and sexism that is still very rife and real in the LGBT+ community.
I think bi people would also be interesting
@@Andyatl2002 bi would just be normal conversations between people lol
Can we get the lesbians and gay men to wrestle?
please!!
@Chase R what do you mean by that 🤨
Conversations like this need to happen more, everywhere. Hearing about others' experiences is the key to empathy.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think some ppl are afraid of this conversation which may be why they barely happen.
@@DanceArchives24 They're scared of what might happen to them if they don't totally submit to the cult of gender ideology.
@@DanceArchives24 Nobody is afraid to talk about this. The trans ideology is practically debunked on a daily basis.
only if it doesn't turn into violence, which it always does.
Only thing I feel empathetic for is the fact they are living in a delusion. What angers me is that fact they are trying to push that delusion on everyone else and if people don't agree then they are a bigot ect ect. It's disgusting that has went on for so long
I absolutely love the Middle Ground series. Its so humanizing and refreshing.
As a woman it was very hard to watch them talk about how we feel. (Edit I’m not talking about the trans men who have previously lived as women)
How is it hard to watch them talk about how we feel?
@@MissLadyG99 cuz they give off a false narrative of women, their saying how they think women feel as fact… that’s what’s wrong with the people nowadays
Why do women make this all about them?
The 4 people on the left were born and grew up as women…they are technically actual women…
women are more emotional. it's a fact. we are higher in trait neuroticism which means the propensity to feel negative emotions.
You can tell that Buck has had experience in both educating other people, and in directing dialog with anti-trans people in a constructive way.
How is that anti Trans? The guy was spitting straight up facts
@@KitchenWitchery and what you think are *NOT* facts, are in reality; *FACTS* !
Absolutely, I learned a lot listening to him speak
@@officialballisticfox8111 there called opinions…
@@officialballisticfox8111 it's called opinion
If you're ever in an argument with someone that goes crazy as soon as you mention they may have privilege replace the word with advantage. Got this concept through to a lot of people by using the disadvantage and advantage concept.
I think for me it’a the whole “men have it better than women” thing that’s shoved in our faces in every piece of media. It’s simply just untrue and divisive given the many advantages and disadvantages we both have.
Cool idea, thanks for sharing!
When having a conversation about privilege the word “advantage” will always come up anyway.
@@mogensgallardo3288 I would disagree. There’s plenty of advantages women have over men and Vice versa. The obvious one is even now in Ukraine they won’t allow any males 13 to 60 years old to leave in order to fight. Not only is that alway something men are always expected to do for war but in daily life. You’re a coward if you don’t confront physical confrontation to protect yourself or others. Not saying I disagree with it but it is what it is. Of course there is the men lose custody 90% of the time along with that women are always granted doubt of mischievous or irresponsible behavior. Women are incarcerated for shorter times for similar crimes. And on top of that women use sex appeal to their advantage a lot, so much that sometimes it’s a career (only fans). And this is just a few things.
@@theviking8513 Men have it WAY better than women. Stop it.
This was the most productive and healthy debates that I’ve seen about this or relating topics. I think the representation was immaculate and this is the best this conversation could’ve been. Thank you so much for this engaging and educational content.
Suffering in silence is the worst thing you can do to yourself and this is something men have lived with as this unspoken rule and look at where it leads.
it's not bad if you can and want to deal with your problems, you just have to know if you need someones help.
@@boguszmakowski2357 knowing when you need help and asking for help are 2 very different things.
suffering in silence is when you know you need help but dont ask.
@@7svn. i sometimes did and it was better like that, i dont like to share my emotions and some people don't like it as well
Suffering in silence and getting through it makes you become very very strong and independent and you can survive alone but staying alone or if you don’t get through it which is likely you will break and or be unhappy. I got numb to a degree of feeling to a degree and I’m wondering from time to time if I even live. It derived from trust issues and maybe it’s how I developed. It’s not that I like being alone it’s that I have yet to meet someone
Its because of toxic masculinity.
This was so hard to watch as a woman. The misunderstanding of women is underlining the cis men’s opinions on trans men.
What do you mean by the second sentence?
@@namedasurname3968 kneel before a dictionary for your pitiful vocabulary instead
@@ExecutiveGoth No, there is. WORSE for them
@@namedasurname3968 I mean no, it really isn't that hard. There's only one new word and you already seem to know what it means, so either you're willfully ignorant or you're the one who's been brainwashed.
So don't watch. It wasn't about you.
As a biological woman, some of this was extremely difficult and very frustrating to watch...but, I learned quite a bit and it was very interesting.
Same here.
omg me too seriously. It was quite frustrating at times, especially when they did not understand what the others were saying.
One of the hardest parts of the video as a woman was when they were talking about male privilege and how men don't have it. These men never had to call a friend when they're walking late at night, never had to worry about someone following them in the subways, etc. I do understand that women have privileges in other areas such as custody battles, etc. but in my experience, men have more privilege when it comes to safety and respect.
@@aglioeoilo Fr fr. Being unable to leave Ukraine for the men ages 18-60 is a great privilege huh?
@@aglioeoilo no ones invalidating that. What they’re explaining is everyone has their own privilege but you’re solely picking out make privilege and portraying it is were better
I loved the respect these two groups gave eachother they actually spoke AND listened to each-other…this was very well done.
i love the fact that this was supposed to be a conversation about individual masculinity and it actually just turned into men speaking on their perceived issues of women
Half the panel are women who have NO idea what it is to be men
Ah yes classic female moment, you didn't understand a single word that was spoken during this video lmao
That's the issues yall say tho?
Wait... They said gender is fluid and disconnected from biology, so how then, is there male privilege? It's incoherent
Says a woman
How is Brandon gonna say that Men should suffer in silence but then also say that Men commit suicide more often a minute later as if those two statements don’t contradict themselves? 💀
Right?? 😭😭
Conservatives do this all the time. They are always making the point but also just missing it
Because it's how men have been wired for survival ultimately. Men who can control their emotions, stoic in the face of adversity, assertive and motivated instead of passive and lazy, who remain analytical even when upset or angry, just were able to survive better over the past millions of years. If a family member passed away, our grandfathers still had to work in the mines the next day or do some other laborious job WHILE grieving. Any mental health issues that would inhibit our grandfathers from working would result in the failure of our families. If there was a war between tribes or countries, the men who fought in them had to control their emotions. We have been wired to be this way. And if you aren't built like this then society would be tough for you, but that doesn't mean we should not want men who cannot control their emotions.
@@TheStoicBrowser many men CANNOT control their emotions tho. The amount of unprovoked violence we hear about that men start is too much. There are men killing their entire families over nonsense. There are too many men who act like they are in control of their emotions but they are overgrown children who hurt others. I dont see this level of emotional instability from women.
His entire platform is a big contradiction. I’m not a liberal or a conservative but he has skewed and problematic views on the Black community as a collective. His wife is White, which is fine, but what he does is put Black women down in the process to praise the White race of women. The fact that he tried to do the “what aboutisms” when they discussed r*pe and cat calling, it was VERY disingenuous. I don’t even think he believed what he said.
"some people believe that men need to cry and lay on the ground and be feminine like women" crying is not a gendered activity lmfao it's a natural human response
Men cry but certainly a lot less than women...and that too in solitude.
It's gendered that way.
I’m not a woman, but also I didn’t think that lying on the ground crying was something particularly commonplace of women. Like not saying it’s an abnormal response depending on the circumstance, but the point comes across like women have no restraint on their emotions
@@AA-5690 men usually cry less because then were raised to think that boys shouldn’t cry or get made fun of in school for doing so. My boyfriend cries a lot (like when watching media) but he doesn’t cry around others.
Similarly, I (a woman), used to a cry a lot but now don’t because I was told a lot as a child that I was too sensitive.
Being inherently weak and having a victim mentality is 100% not a traditionally masculine trait
@@cameronhester1388 It is
I've been watching these for the last few hours, and I have to say, this was the most calmest and respectful episode I've seen yet
It's super weird that people use Timothee as an example of non-masculine men. His face and style is overall very masculine. Is it just because he's skinnier and actually knows how to dress himself in clothes that fit and aren't plain black?
@@Ipomoeas his face has very masculine features
@@morijin5568 hard disagree
@@zsmusic8708 And why?
@@bmwjourdandunngoddess6024 Because I don't think two of the transmen look masculine at all lol. Little bit of facial hair but, they're super short. Sit effeminatly. Not saying that's a bad thing, i just don't think they look masculine in my own opinion.
I thought that was funny too. He's just skinny, he doesn't even dress feminine lol
Buck is so respectful on everyone's point of view and it is refreshing hearing from someone who's a trans for a long time, great guy.
Lol no she not. She got all sensitive when called out.
@@tangieshogelola6898 He.
@@tangieshogelola6898 He.
@@tangieshogelola6898 He.
@@tangieshogelola6898 he
“My wife has privilege because she has me” had me crying shitting myself.
You may laugh but his wife probably sees it as a privilege too
@@pierrehenry3483 it’s a privilege when he goes to work and gets away from her lmfao
Do you need to wipe?
FR BRO
you should get control of your bowels
I like the fact that everyone was mature in this conversation i really expected them to fight but they were very understanding of each other's view
I really love that Buck nods in acceptance of what others are saying--even when he may disagree on some part of it. It is so validating to have someone listen and acknowledge what someone is saying. Its so wonderful to see great listeners in action.
I think you're mistaken. Buck kept interrupting all the time.
👍 yes
Granted, nodding is really what most ppl do when they're in conversation just to let the other person know that they're being heard.
@David Emblow wait why are you copy pasting this everywhere 😂
Bruh literally everyone does that, he kept interrupting and talking in a pretty attacking way
I don’t know if this is just me, I think saying women are taking on a more masculine role as in being “independent” is quite offensive. Women have always been independent people but the world didn’t want women to be independent for so long. I feel as if my independence is more of me finding my femininity not me finding the masculine side of me.
Yes.
Amen
I absolutely love this take
Exactly 🙏🏻
Well, he did say it’s ‘associated’ with being masculine. Not that that’s necessarily true.
This is so hard to watch as a woman, there are such general statements that they view as factual about womens perceptions and feelings just isn’t true? There’s just SO MUCH projected feelings. If I took a shot every time I cringed, I’d be dead.
Facts from both sides too
The trans side are talking about THEIR perspective of being a woman. Not how it is to be a woman.
@MrCrowley1018 ? What’s your point?
Watch an episode of Survival: Men vs Women and you will know what they're talking about
I'm seriously convinced just right off the bat that most if not all of those conservative "men" don't view the trans men as anything other than manly women and if there's anything they've made very clear throughout their comments it's that they look down on and most certainly don't respect women. It's infuriating to have to listen to.
I was taught from an early age that crying in public (or even crying at all) is unacceptable and weak and that I should blame myself for all of my problems, no excuses. I still have difficulty understanding what toxicity is.
clarkson said "we have to accept society as it is". and my question to him is: who said the way society is right now is the only true way?? Is this a rule? A law? who says that's final?
exactly
i mean u do have to accept biological reality if thats what he was specifically talking about
What if everyone said that during the era of slavery? What if everyone said that during the Americans being oppressed under British rule? What would change?
@@MsDudette21 the way you think about biological sex is very wrong, pls go and read some bio books, there are more then two sexes (not talking about gender, I'm talking about what a person is born as.. their sex) sex is just as huge of a spectrum as the present day gender is
Ironic coming from a gay guy too. Unfortunately many of them (white) have become very comfortable with maintaining the status quo now that they’re included in it
Brandon really said men should “suffer in silence” and then say that men have the highest rate of suicide and didn’t think maybe there’s a correlation.
The implication is to "suffer if silence" sometimes. He didn't mean all the time. And I think there's truth in that statement.
To suffer in silence doesn't mean bottle up your emotions 24/7. It means to bottle them up in that particular circumstance and let it all out later in a better setting.
That's different from men who suppress sadness/guilt/hurt all the time.
There isn't
Men need support structures
Men didn't cry in the 60s , but they had support structures so suicide rates were low
Feminists destroyed those support structures
so then how do you explain the fact that women self mutilation is more prevalent amongst women, but not suicide? men have a higher suicide rate simply because our genetic profile is to be more aggressive and impulsive than women.
@@shuarma0 genetic profile? saying aggression results in suicide is a stretch, also suicide isnt usually a quick impulsive decision, its rather something u think over for a long period of time.
You can tell that buck has seen/experienced it all, hes open and sees and accepts everyone’s takes without ego and it is really respectable. We need more people like buck
Buck is the only non-delusional one, and the healthiest mentally with little to no past emotional baggage.
@Lyler Taley what is he delusional about?
@Lyler Taley I'm assuming you're acting patronizing and not giving any actual response because you don't have one, you're also overcompensating a bit ngl
@Lyler Taley are you okay?
@@MastaOfMonkeyDisasta none of these people are delusional, there is nothing to be delusional about.
Mad respect to Brandon for being open to learning and growing.
Unfortunately nowadays he’s unbearable
@@rickyaburgoswhat do u mean?
@rickyaburgos how do you know?
@@rickyaburgoshe also doesn’t follow the Bible
@@angieg38 cuz he’s active on social media and has done if the most questionable and racist takes, he favors making content for white people
"It's OK to suffer in silence"
No, it's literally not. There are way too many studies on how that is literally the worst way to deal with trauma. The notion that this is OK and even encouraged is one of the biggest examples of toxic masculinity in our society.
It might be ok but that doesnt mean society is structured that way, i got kneed in the stomach today, worse pain i felt in a while, a bunch of people crowded around me and i just layed there groaning. I had to, and afterwards i felt proud of myself. I didnt cry, i didnt show my weakness. I got up, shaked the other guys hand, and kept playing. I dont want to imagine the social impact of me crying.
Bro, why tf do you have a problem with men crying in silence? we can go through our emotions however we want.
@@jahzealjr6810 that isn't what he said at all
Do you understand what “literally” means?
But then he quotes men commit suicide at higher rates.... 🤔
I really disagreed with Brandon a lot but I really appreciate how he listened and spoke calmly and with a level head. It seemed like he came at it from a place of genuine curiosity and I respect that even if I don't see things the same way.
See I didn't disagree with him that much but I appreciate how respectful he was, like buck. Everyone else kinda talked over eachother.
I am extremely happy to see someone that disagreed could also respect him at the same time.
@@unkownquantity4949 same here ! Was pretty impressed ngl
I agreed with him 100 percent
That's exactly how I feel about Buck
I was a little worried at the start when they started raising their voices but this one ended very respectfully and I feel both sides were able to learn from the other. Fine work, boys
@Repent or you will likewise perish. doing God’s work
@@NicDunn they aren’t doing anything but making a fool of themselves on the internet
@@NicDunn you people are losing it
@@areolagrandespoop7269 you people? Which group do you think I belong to?
@@NicDunn the fairytales book club group. Don’t act slow
Seeing both sides respect eachother is really nice to see, in a lot of these videos i see the two sides usually start yelling and such, really nice sight to see
Yelling makes content entertainment so why not be chill and watch chaos
So as someone who studies psychology, just talk about how you feel. You don't have to cry, you can cry but just showing some sort of vulnerability just allows you to be healthier and less stressed which is better for you.
Gosh America is really an infectious cancer country or literally one of the worst can’t imagine Living in a country where Preferences and sexuality and race is a big deal
@@hermeslein6614 whatever country your from is probably worse
@@bdrummmm sorry But I live In Norway where free education and healthcare exist unlike America scary dystopian country
Asking for help and not closing up like a hedgehog is something I've worked on a lot in therapy. Just getting your emotions out of your body and bouncing them off of someone you trust can can help so much in figuring them out. You can only do so much analyzing of yourself without a second opinion.
@@bdrummmm This is an ignorant comment. Most countries, especially ones in Europe, are much more evolved than The United States. People cant just "Oh its just America in general". North America is a continent containing several countries, The United States is one of them. Canada is north of us and has universal health care and free education just like most European countries. They're doing much better than we are in regards to their citizens.
i find it so funny that they're talking about catcalling/public attacks as a basis of who's stronger or gets preyed on or whatever. but nobody ever asked, who, overwhelmingly, are the ones doing the attacking?
Black men
@@sethputnamjr what is wrong with you
Domestic abuse statistics between males and females are pretty much bang on 50/50
@@fractale4322well no duh because that domestic it almost always affect both sides.
@@rima.mv2147 women tend to start the physical fight it’s kinda messed up when u consider the fact that lesbian relationships on average have disproportionate high rate of domestic violence against each other
"I just use _their_ name... I feel like I'm giving into the narrative that men can be women and women can be men if I use the pronouns that _they_ want." I've gotta say seeing a conservative use they/them to avoid properly gendering a trans person is a new one to me.
as soon as i saw how much he tried to avoid using the correct pronouns for his trans friend, to the point he started using they/them, i knew what arguments that dude would be bringing up 😭
I'm sorry but I feel so bad for that guy's friend 😭 imagine actually liking someone that disagrees with your existence. He must really like him if he stays his friend despite that.
(Not judging btw, I've been through that too, it's just,, upsetting)
I don’t think he was using they/them pronouns. People have been using “their” instead of “he or she” in grammar for a long time grammatically speaking. It’s incorrect technically but that’s just the language that has been used. We gotta realize how recently the concept of choosing pronouns is.
@@cobrabosse Two things. One: if people have been using a word a certain way for a long time then it is not technically incorrect. Language is living and spoken, and trying to apply rules to it that go against the instincts or understanding of native speakers is called prescriptivism. This is generally frowned upon. Second: he was using the words “they”, “them”, and “their” in place of a proper noun (his friends name). That’s a pronoun. The part of speech that he was using is called a pronoun, and the use of these pronouns for a single known individual is generally what conservatives rally against. I was just noting how interesting it was.
You’re right. He should just call his friend by the grammatically and biologically correct pronouns.
This conversation will never end. It's semantics through and through.
see that’s exactly the point of a debate. nobody wins or looses a debate.
yes a looooot of "men commit suicide" more than women actually, but when you also wanna say stuff like you "don't wanna cry in front of your family" and just want to "suffer in silence" you have to wonder why suicide rates are so high in men... these points are contradictory and some men (not always by fault of their own) are making their lives harder :/
The main reason why men's suicide rate is so high is because they often use irreversible methods (e.g. guns, tall buildings, nooses). Dealing with men depression is much different than women's, and much of the psychological literature treat them the same. That's not an endorsement of the "suffer in silence" point, but you don't help mens depression by simply "talking it out" like you would with women on average.
hit the nail on the head. thats why men commit suicide more. if u wanna get technical women attempt more, but men succeed, for lack of a better word, more in committing suicide. women generally try to overdose while men are more likely to use a gun. men are so used to aggressive behavior that they resort to killing themselves in a very harmful way. men need to be more emotionally available to each other and society in general needs to tell men having feelings isnt a weakness. it simply makes u human
I love whenever people talk about mens suicide its always in a way that blames men. Men need to do this or that. Its not treated as a mental illness issue its treated as a fault of them. Funny as fuck and super hypocritical.
@@HawkUnleashed no its not. We're trying to understand the root of certain ttitudes and why men are so depressed lol. It's never anyone's fault but when a literal patriarchy upholds those attitudes that cause men lower on the social spectrum to hurt themselves we have to address it.
@@HawkUnleashed no one's treating it as a fault, however you can't say men shouldn't express their emotions and then be surprised when they do it in a harmful way. They don't know how to do it properly. Part of trying to address the issue is looking for possible reasons why the rates are so high, and that's one of those reasons. How about stop taking everything as an attack towards men when we are literally discussing something that would be beneficial to them
Suffer in silence is never OK. Having a cry is much better than “ suffering in silence.“ suffering as silence is what leads a whole bunch of people into channeling their emotions in negative way such as anger, abuse, drug, alcoholism, self harm, etc.
that’s a normative statement, perhaps someone who struggles with channeling and dealing with emotion would fit under your opinion, but some people may just find it easier to deal with their emotions within and feel more comfortable in doing so, without fitting under your opinion
@@orm2236 agreed
Talk to em
As well as depression and other psychological strugles
@@orm2236 Actually no, even those who feel better being quiet about it, do so because of shame and embarassment. Even the most introverted people want atleast one understanding person to lend them a shoulder, where they can open up about themselves. Humans are social beings, civil people who solve things with discussion. Most people are horrible at dealing with trauma all alone.
@@Qwerty-jc3so you can still be social without wearing your heart on your sleeve
Makeup, wigs, robes and high-heeled shoes - we don't consider these things to be typically masculine nowadays, but they were once considered masculine - especially for opulent, upper-class men. I think the very fact that this aesthetic instability exists suggests that masculinity and femininity are not unchanging ideals and never have been.
Nah
@@4tk37 wow, such a smart and educational counter argument. Go back to groveling alone and not being to have genuine connections with the people in your life because you refuse to see the side of someone who sees things different than you.
I completely agree
Yeah, heels were originally created for men only…
@@4tk37 wdym "nah" u in denial and it shows
This was the most civil, respectful and mature debate. Respectful was the most important part. Beautiful to see guys.
i’d love to see this but with trans women and conservative women as well. this was a great video
!!
Absolutely!!
@@crobeastness why did you feel so inclined to go out of you’re way to say such an offensive statement
@@apessimist903 i was not being offensive. I'm bringing awareness to the fact that you are not obligated to believe in other people's ideology or philosophy. The offensive thing for someone to do is to lie to them to their face.
…… “not being offensive” i don’t think you get to chose what people can and cannot get offended by…
It was so interesting to hear the trans men confirm how being male and female determines and influences how people respond to you.
It’s obvious tho
@@brolacoleo1619 Not for most men sadly.
No it wasn’t, it just supports your perspective
@David Emblow I disagree, I have never heard anyone claim that they are better than anyone else for having experienced hardship. Personally, my hardships have made me a worse person, they make it harder to grow. The conversation should actually be about accountability, because that's what people are really asking for. If someone is abusive or a system is abusive, it should be recognized as such, so that they/it can change for the better.
@@Devi_ka well then I guess people are generally less mature then I thought
How can someone encourage the narrative of 'men should suffer in silence/not cry etc' then also talk about Male Suicide rates as a lack of privilege? How don't you connect those two issues and understand them as cause/effect? I don't think I could ever do a show like this because I couldn't sit and talk with people who don't respect me or my identity. Huge respect to these Trans Men for being able to do that
Edit: I've muted notifs so by all means continue arguing with yourself, have a nice day :)
1 word. Americans
So you wouldn't be able to have a conversation with someone that has a differing opinion to yours???oh brother...
@@ace2311 it’s not a difference of opinion, it’s a complete disrespect of identity. Vastly different.
@@ace2311 no I have many conversations with people who differ in opinion to me when it comes to politics etc. I don't have conversations with people who fundamentally disagree with my identity because unsurprisingly that's incredibly stressful and dysphoria enducing.
@Gavin Reed Do you have any sources to back up your claim that men are "designed to be less emotional from birth"? I'd be curious to know if any research exists to back that up.
I find myself more conservative leaning and i absolutely loved buck, super kind and open minded.
Buck is also conservative so
These conversations are so much more productive without a studio audience. So fascinating.
"so much more"?
@leshithoshithonski8168 I mean have you ever seen someone like Ben Shapiro interview a trans person, or just liberal in general in front of an audience? Every single time, one side stutters, and the other yells, and eventually in devolves into both sides talking over each other and never making an effort to see the other side.
tell me u watch TV to much without telling me u watch TV
What percentage of a population do lgbt people make up? Yet the amount of attention they have gotten over the past few years is astonishing. Do you think that happened because they are the calm, quiet ones? If conservatives were as unproductive as you claim, we would have no semblance of society at all.
@@thezimra9429📺 🖥 📺 🖥 📺 🖥
I'm sorry, what?? When Clarkson said "Anybody that wants to fundamentally change society and change gender roles, that's not happiness. And if we want to fight for acceptance, we need to start with acceptance...which is accepting society for what it is."
So what I'm hearing him say, is society is what it is and we shouldn't strive for a better one? That's absolutely bonkers.
Especially since he’s gay. Apparently you can’t spell self hatred without putting Clarkson in it.
@@c.johnson1789 I know. Seeing people in the LGBTQ+ community stand up for conservative beliefs makes my heart sad 😔
@@RachelKay528 lol so a gay guy can't be conservative? What? You know beliefs are a bit more nuanced right?
@@zenfae8373 conservative beliefs literally discriminate LGBTQ individuals lmao
@@kasunkavishka2976 It's pretty clear that not all conservative beliefs discriminate LGBTQ individuals if there are queer conservatives.
Just like there's religious people who're more progressive.
Jubilee can be off the charts cringe sometimes, especially when tackling some of these culture war topics, but they absolutely crushed this one. Excellent panel and the longer form did the topic so much justice. Excellent work
I agree! This is one of the most balanced episodes so far.
Agreed! This is one of the best, one of the worst was the fashion rated by girls to guys.
I agree. I was so into the conversation it didn’t even feel like 45mins. I loved both sides opinions on everything!
So true! I like that they do stuff for all the different ppl in their audience. Like they'll do these but then they'll do lighter almost silly videos like "take someone on a date based on their outfit!" Its a nice balance, their team is obv full of ppl with ideas and it's cool that they make them a reality! Prob why theyre so successful 😄
no ... it's still bad
Jubilee, I love your disclaimer message at the beginning of each video. There is humanity in us all, and I love that you encourage others, despite how controversial these topics can be, to approach each other with empathy and kindness. Keep doing these videos. It’s great to see people with such different lives and views to come together on something, anything.
No, men should NOT suffer in silence. Bad take. If you’re reading this, please know that no one should suffer in silence. That’s called abuse.
If someone is also reading this and came down to the replies, chose VERY carefully who you want to share your suffering with. Most people are not trustworthy, and letting all your emotions out to the wrong person could encourage them to use it against you. While suffering in silence isn't great also don't go around telling most people what you are going through, they would either just make fun of you for not being able to cope or use it against you, been through that before. So be incredibly careful about who you share your stuff with.
Because bottom line is, if you share your stuff with most people they will make it even worse for you by saying the wrong things.
Yes and no
@@Kaledrone %100
No...just no....
@@Kaledrone thats why you should see a professional if possible
Clarkson and his denying that people NEED external validation was so frustrating. If everyone he encountered misgendered him and invalidated his identity he would be a mess
or he wouldn't care, or not take it seriously, life goes on
I have No idea what this even means or is it I dont care,
Anyone who believes that an individual needs zero validation outside of themselves, especially during developmentally critical stages of their lives, is either lying or very unknowledgeable.
@@letsexchangecansandbadadvi4245 dw no one understands what you are talking about either
@@MrHxChris Fr. I can not think of a single person who doesn’t need outside validation
They’re missing the whole point when they said
“women dress masculine to feel empowered”
No. The empowerment is not there, it’s in the ability to CHOSE to dress how you’d like, to define for themselves how they want to be. Deciding our ways for ourselves is empowering, (and for some it’s being masculine, feminine, or even androgynous) and not putting on a suit to “”””be like”””” men who are empowered (in power?)
Have they talked with a woman? Because they all say that! That they feel empowered to be *themselves*, the emphasis is always on the choice and not the clothing !
👏👏👏👏👏
women are very empowered until they are 30 and still single. then they get homely real quick hahaha
Plus masculine clothes are generally built to be more functional and moveable than feminine clothes (leave sundresses out of the conversation😉)
@@sirmister9099 homely?
That was the issue here. They thought that empowered meant in power. They are not the same. While I agree that women have always been empowered, in theory this works as a statement but looking at history and correlating that with actually power is just silly. Great comment!
Jacob had one of the best points on the panel - granted results will vary but instilling pride and confidence in young LGBT kids and toughing them up to the world’s criticism is a a huge factor - for every child!!! But especially for the ones who want to express theirselves in that manner.. the world is harsh to everyone. It’s life, you can’t change the way the world operates
I’m a woman and I need men. I also need women. I need community and togetherness.
As a women I agree with needing community and togetherness from time to time, to support and strengthen each other mutually IF there is need.
However if you have to rely too much on others, it can only lead to inequality and trouble: either you are burdening someone with your problems (emotional or financial) and they are the ones having to improve your situation & support you - or you are the one doing that. And once this inequality is presented, there will inevitably be a breaking point for "the provider" where they will be like "sorry, I can't do this anymore" and leave you.
Which is why it is better to strive for independence if you can - you have your own self to support and your own battles to fight.
Yes but you need men more
@@raghuvenkatesan6792 Be it men or woman, in general try to take care of yourself and only rely on them IF you need to :). Besides unless you want to reproduce, there is no need for a certain sex specifically.
@@raghuvenkatesan6792 YOU need men bruh
@@yubullyme3855 everyone needs men, especially you
Listen I LOVE being feminine, even hyper feminine. I love pink and dresses and cute and pretty things and like spending time on looking nice. But I’m also in the top 10% of my program, and working on strength training, and just got accepted to a top law school. My femininity doesn’t make me weak or fragile, it’s just another part of me. Femininity is really just an identity and has next to nothing to do with gender and doesn’t make men nor women inherently weaker for it. edit; if you’re gonna be talking abt me in the comments please use she/her pronouns!
Yes, explained perfectly 👏
Femininity doesn't make us weak, it's just a part of who we are. What does make us weak is the biological aspect that women are physically weaker than men. It's not necessarily about femininity though, just womanhood.
All of the things you've said are not even inherently feminine, pink, dresses, cute & pretty stuff being associated with women is just a social construct.
Edit for clarity : I'm not criticizing what OP said, I agree with her and feel the same. I'm just adding on her comment.
Gender being a social construct is just a theory that hasn't been proven.
@@Khayran Can you explain why heels were invented for men, but now women use them? Why did men wear dresses (and still do in some cultures), but now it's associated with women? Why is pink a feminine color and blue a masculine color, did nature decide that or was is it humans?
@@elriane94 femininity isn't just what we wear, it's how we wear it. Things like frilly skirts and sundresses can't be compared to kilns that Scottish men wear or thobes like the Arabs wear because women's dresses are designed to fit the female body. Same with high heels. Rockstar boots look okay on men, but if they wear women's heels then they resemble dragqueens. Femininity is also behavior, as in soft, emotional, caring and the like of making one's self pretty. Blue and pink are just colors btw. Some people just prefer pink over others, idk. I'd say I'm girly but don't really prefer pink.
If slaves around the world accepted society for what it was they would have never been free. If women accepted that they were never gonna be able to vote, they would still not be voting. Personal opinion but it was a very ignorant statement. Also we can never judge the current state of the world without understanding and knowing how it came to be.
Preach 👏
Wise words Darlene
That comment from him bothered me so much especially because he's GAY
If we "accepted society for what it is" long ago he would be stoned to death
@@byronstone386 exactly my thought
@@byronstone386 EXACTLY LMAO
I felt like Max was the most open to listening. He came off a lot more humble then the other 3 dudes.
And one of the four cis men is gay. I found his argument with Buck over how women feel hilarious. He’s gay. He has no idea.
This was easily the best episode of middle ground, it wasn’t too chaotic to the point where no progress was made but it also wasn’t too timid to the point where everyone was just agreeing to disagree, this was some really amazing discourse to watch.
Totally agree
agreed. this was incredible
Agreed. Everyone was able to REALLY speak their minds.
Its refreshing to see a mature, thought out and respectful debate these days.
buck is so kind, respectful and genuine. favorite person in this entire video.
I was thinking the same… even though I don’t agree with his thoughts… the way he states his thoughts makes me want and accept him for who he is.
I really like Buck.
Buck and Brandon really made the video great
@@wolfnoggin2165 you should always accept people for who they are. treat people with kindness :)
The definition of peace and love. They should ask a bunch of people who think they can transrace.
That's the voice that should be amplified I think not the crazy be like us or or your evil people. Buck was the most rational person on either side and I like Brandon Tatum he's sincere but that buck guy doesn't allow his belief to be paramount over others and Brandon does that sometimea
Suffering in silence is NEVER the answer.
@Gavin Reed just because it's the innate response doesn't mean it's the right one.
@Gavin Reed high suicide rate =/= evolutionarily effective
Men have to be extremely careful who we open up to though. You can't just open up to anybody.
@Gavin Reed Effective as In feeding into toxic masculinity and creating a lot of toxic society norms ?? Cause if it’s that way then yes 100%agree. The way you guys use “evolutionary effective” as if the evolution we’re in now is perfect will always amaze me 😃As if that’s the reason society has been successful ..like we’re successful now because of those traits ,when in fact that’s actually the very reason it’s depleting.
@Skibi yeah but that’s everyone. Everyone should be extremely careful who they open up to lol.
This is my favorite jubilee video so far. I think this is the most conscious and understanding conversation so far.
It’s really interesting seeing how people interpret questions differently , for example for the first one I would deff say that masculinity and femininity are both part of a human being and that it can never disappear , you can just suppress it
Suppress it at a cost... a devastating boomerang effect.
Umm same, masculinity comes in different forms and it is not disappearing. Those men are just frustrated that there are other people who are not what they envision masculine should be.
@@geniedenverjoven7627 That's because they are not men.
@@geniedenverjoven7627 or maybe it’s that they aren’t masculine and are co-opting it despite not knowing much about it?
Why would you?
in an effort to not use pronouns, gilbert uses the pronouns they/them pronouns
Lmfao
They ain't a pronoun or a gender
@@fur8104 then what is it classified as?
@@fur8104 they is a pronoun bruh
@@fur8104 so what it is, tell us
"you don't have to break down and cry in front of your family to be vulnerable, it's okay to suffer in silence" that statement made me so sad
He also said "you don't have to break down and cry, like a WOMAN". Like that's something only women do or that's all a woman does (?
Why would that make you sad? That is a true statement. What I find interesting is how people hear and interpret his answer.
Can one be vulnerable without breaking down and crying in front of your family or anybody?
I agree with his answer. You don't have to do it, it doesn't mean he hasn't or doesn't.
As a non-binary bisexual person who suffered in silence for years pretending to be a straight woman and following stereotypes, I didn't believe in just to fit in... I feel that
@@nataliare576 majority of women do
why women feel the need to tell men how to express their emotions? I don't get it, lady stay and your lane and let men figure out by themselves or with other men smh
this has been one of the better talks they actualy found middleground and had respect for each other.
as a woman this is hard to watch, for many reasons but also i’m so sad for men thinking they have to uphold this ideal that they don’t have feelings “it’s ok to suffer is silence sometimes” no it’s ok to have emotions my guy
Its not that they don't wanna show emotion. Its all about how it effects those around them. Sometimes you have to be strong for those around you. Its a mental thing that honesty some people just don't understand. Its kind of like a struggling mother who cries outside the site of their children.
@@TheSaintsfan16 1. If they never express themselves to anyone, it causes mental illness. 2. Never letting your kids see you struggle also causes mental illness 🤷♀️ but there’s a balance. Your kids don’t need to know the details of everything, that would be inappropriate too. But teaching them how to bounce back or how to apologize is important.
@@reaper6107 You misinterpreted it my guy, i dont think he meant “EmOtioNaL OuTbuRSts” he meant showing emotion in general
Thats what women say, but they dont mean it. I cant remember the amount of times a guy friend has been dumped by his gf because he opened up, because whether you like it or not, most women see that as weakness. There is no benefit for a guy to open up to a women, none.
@@johnfisher8401 I was just thinking this, I even noticed in myself before I grew up and relieved my ignorance, seeing a guy crying right infront of you was a shocking foreign feeling. Now days I do not feel that way, but many women are living in that head space. I dont think a lot of women mean it when they say they do.
I love that this conversation is happening, but HOLY HELL AM I FRUSTRATED
fr i keep needing to take breaks watching this because i equally know this conversation is so important and interesting but also cannot stand to hear some of what is being said ahah
@@caseyjaz dude, same. I'm listening to music in between. Love this conversation though
Y'all really need to take breaks to hear men have a conversation?
@@JoeMama-mg5dk THIS is the best comment because it makes me think..WHY do I have a problem with the sentiments?
Is it because they are expressing views that I may not align with?
Is it because one person said something I'm absolutely against? Idk. But that's me being human and willing to listen.
@@ajoyner614 whose side are you on? Just curious
Dude actually argued for "men can cry but should suffer in silence" then used "men commit more suicide" as an argument 2min later... cmon dude ... 🤣
Fact check: women attempt suicide more but have a much lower success rate, usually due to less lethal means. Anecdotal evidence: of all the times I have been to a mental hospital, there have always been more women than men.
Lmfao
why do the woman and men be sad like bro just take a hike up a high mountain and you will feel fine
@@hamburger9677 3 sips of beer
@@rich842 exactly
I dont suffer in silence I suffer in solitude. I also choose that because I made the mistake of grieving my recently deceased mother in front of my ex and she totally lost respect for me after that. The relationship turned very manipulative and abusive because I was in an emotionally vulnerable state so she made the most of that oppurtinity to turn my friends against me as well. Suddenly when I needed my friends the most, I was "too depressing to talk to and negative". So in addition to losing my mother, I lost my relationship AND all those friendships. I know not all girls are like this but I learned a very valuable lesson that year.
I’m so sorry that happened, and I am sorry for your loss. I genuinely hope you find a more loving and respectful life partner. It is okay to be vulnerable and you don’t have to suffer alone. 🫂
@@joeysalazar98 you are very kind and I appreciate your words greatly. But I have been down this road before and I have taken much abuse before this. If anyone is to be let in they will have to prove to me that they are worthy of my vulnerability. Until then I will be open with my boys, and closed to all others.
it's so strange to me that people see critique of toxic masulinity and the existence of trans men as somehow an attack on men.
edit: masculinity isn't toxic. nor is it specific to men. toxic masculinity is what is being talked about; if you don't know what that means, look it up or go argue with your strawman somewhere else.
As I see it, one of the main reasons so many men feel that critiquing toxic masculinity is an attack, is because it often gets translated as “stop being masculine.” I think it also doesn’t help that we don’t acknowledge the existence of toxic femininity, or if/when we do, it often gets justified by claiming to be a product of the patriarchy, with the implication being that, even toxic femininity is men’s responsibility to fix.
@conartist j wdym? Men bottling up their emotions has no specific effect on women outside of the net negative effect on society when someone cracks and shoots up a mall. Toxic feminity is attacked all the time. Femme Fatale are usually villains. Noone wants a waste of space that just walks around doing no work and seducing men - it's a dead weight for society and women who rely on it wind up with no societal value when they hit middle age.
@conartist j whoops sorry I just read your username. Guess I'm slow.
There is no such thing as toxic masculinity. It's a feminist invention used to handicap men for the benefit of women.
@conartist j men created men being seen a bank account. What women gotta do with that? She is following along what she has been taught.
Buck and Brandon should do a separate conversation, they seem to be the more mature and articulate of the bunch.
Definitely
Brandon Tatum is awesome, speaks at a lot of events! I got to meet him and would suggest looking into his videos, He’s great!
Brandon’s personal views are extremely antiquated but he’s definitely one of the best here when it comes to conversing.
He’s nice to listen to, but he was quite disingenuous for parts of the convo.
The minute he refused to acknowledge the difference in how men and women would feel while being catcalled or the male privilege in feeling safer in general, I couldn’t take him serious.
@@fighthive4808 and what's wrong with his views being extremely antiquated? Where is it written that extreme antiquated views are bad?
I literally cried when luckie mentioned kids needing validation from their parents, it was so annoying how the other side was trying to disregard this fact.
Seriously you think a 9 10 yo kid who doesn't want to eat vegetables can make a decision about their gender
@@ai_battle who said it was 9 or 10 year olds
exactly, they care so much about children but also thinks its okay to invalidate them and not accept them? makes no sense.
@@ai_battle I mean Kim petras transitioned early and she’s doing amazing. Some kids are. Also various genders have always existed. In various cultures. Your just uneducated and want everyone to cater to that. Point fuck’n blank.
@@ai_battle kids aren't given a permanent choice anyways, the most thing they can get is puberty blockers which isn't dangerous.
This is a pretty respectful and genuine conversation for such a controversial subject matter. Great to see episodes like this