Why 12 Step Programs Are Toxic
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ค. 2024
- Since I finally feel ready to talk more about my own addiction recovery, & pass on some hopefully helpful tips, including tapering off a 30-40 unit-per-day alcohol habit without help, since physical addiction to alcohol is a sod of a corner to get backed into, when you know cold turkey would kill you, but either you can't get into rehab or the programs aren't right for you - while 12 Step would you have you believe you are incapable of consuming alcohol in a limited, medicinal, tapering capacity, it is possible, I did it, & I'd like to pass that on, along with advice on keeping 'occasional' drinks or dabblings just that, so, subscribe if you're interested in seeing those over the next few weeks! ...but before I talked about anything recovery oriented, I knew I had to address the braying elephant in the room of every recovery discussion, which is 12 Step, & why it is not the doctrine I personally follow.
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Thank you for this! I always hated 12 step... "You don't believe in god? Well, your higher power can be a chair! It can be the people in the room! It can be anything!" When someone tells me that I can become sober, but only with the help of my spiritual aid, the chair... I just find it super condescending.
Yeah and it’s like I’m already struggling with an addiction you don’t have to add on a religious crisis 😓
Also, if it's the people in the room, who are addicts themselves, who are apparently also powerless, how is that supposed to add up???
Omg I had a therapist like that with the “must believe in a higher power” thing, it wasn’t so much drug related but she literally wasted a chunk of the session and was so baffled. I think I remember saying trees were mine so we could move on
@@purpleguineapiggie Yes! I've had a very similar experience. And just because I'm not religious myself doesn't mean that I don't think it's wonderful when addicts are able to help themselves through prayer and religion. But my experience has been that the 12 Steps are a fundamentally religious program-- that surrendering to god is numero uno. Being in a counseling situation (or group counseling) where I could talk to other women was surprisingly healing for me, personally. I hope you are doing well, Comrade!
Yup, I have always felt they just say that stuff, nobody really means it. That's why that higher power thing never got to me, I just did nothing for me
That was a hard watch, got my blood boiling. The 'powerless' thing is so damaging, and is what kept me in substance abuse. I was put into a program after having been hospitalized for alcohol poisoning a second time, and they told me to distance myself from 'arenas where alcohol is available', which meant I didn't go to concerts and club events with my friends. Result was me sat home drinking on my own instead, and my overuse actually increased during that time.
Why people think forced isolation is key to solving problems, idk.
Should have had better friends & different pastimes. Its on you.
@@naelyneurkopfen9741 I don't know where you live and how old you are, but I find it hard to find friends who don't drink/drug and there's alcohol at nearly any social event you go to.
@You can't leave this empty lol dont worry, wasnt planning on giving them any of my time. Dont know shit about my situation, just baiting for drama.
Dude, I hear you! They say to stay away from places and events where alcohol is served and its very damaging. There is an old Incredible Hulk episode from the 80's that stuck with me, where there was a girl with an alcohol problem who regularly worked in night clubs, and she got to a point where she had to quit and felt that it was best to not only stay away from the clubs but give up doing something she was passionate about (I think she was a singer/performer of some type). Eric/The Hulk said something that really stuck with me. He told her she has to be able to walk in to that night club, and be surrounded by booze, and still be able to say no. You'll never fully recover unless temptation is staring your dead in the face and you're literally indifferent to it.
Inspiration comes from the weirdest places, but I'm glad it did, lol.
I could never get down with the 12 steps nor their meetings..."No substances! None at all!!" While chain smoking cigarettes and pounding back coffee straight to the face.
LMAO THAT IS SO TRUE!!! Not that I’m dogging on those addictions, but every NA meeting I went to preached a completely sober, straight-edge life, and then they all had a smoke break and drank a shit tonne of coffee. It’s always bewildered me
Yes. 😂😂😂😂😂😂 pure hypocrisy. She is right. Keep yourself busy.Get a new hobby. I work At home. Devil makes work for idle hands.♤♡◇♧
😂real and Based
you should do podcasts. I love your voice, the topics and your opinions. :)
This.
Please!
If he did podcasts how would i know what his eyeshadow looks like ☠☠☠
I second this!
YES
This is not treatment. This is classic indoctrination by taking advantages of insecurity. Worst of all, the practitioners don't even know this.
Well yeah, any teaching of principles and a way of living to other humans is indoctrination.
No
Government funded in Australia. Creepy as hell. I met One their counsellors. Eeekkk😢😢😢 a liar and a bully
I feel like for 12 step to work you have to place most of your value in interactions with other people. For people with things like social anxiety, it’s just draining and triggering.
I just told a non addict who has no idea how 12 step programs work, the shit they drill into your head and she couldn't believe it. I told her about the 90 meetings in 90 days thing and how a lot of meetings have people who act entitled because of how much clean time they have and it's the 12 step programs that create that mentality. I always hated being told I needed god to get clean and for years I struggled with those steps because I'm not religious. Now days I tell people I don't follow the 12 steps because it was created in 20s or 30s by Christian white men and it doesn't work for everyone. Also I hated being told that because I'm a heroin addict I'm now addicted to everything, I can drink if I want but according to na/aa that's not possible.
Also the powerless thing reminds me of the South Park episode with Randy saying he can't stop drinking because it's a disease and he's powerless.
The 90 meetings in 90 days thing is not supposed to be a part of AA or the 12 steps.
It was a demand from a landlord that he could house homeless alcoholics for 3 months while they looked for a job and another place to stay IF they attended meetings with their sponsor every day during this time.
Later some groups started using it for other things and it spread like wild fire after rehab centers started promoting it. It is not a part of the 12-steps ans should not be a part of AA.
@@Senjinonethat’s insane!! So good to know
This is why I left AA. I had always thought it very cult like- and definitely there is a big push for conformity in the meetings. There's also a lot of "I know more than you because I have more time than you." Also they try to use gaslighting to explain away questions, and it honestly felt like the same reasons I left the church. I was constantly emotionally exhausted from having to find a MINIMUM of 3 meetings a week, with no regard for the fact I had no money or transportation. Any mention of any spirituality OTHER than christian had to be done in whispers because otherwise it might "make people uncomfortable". I was denied 3 sponsors because I wasn't christian, and even was told that I needed to come to christ to truly recover.
I recognize your story from my own AA experience. I found it creepy, and cult like. The conformity really weirded me out, cause, Imo, this was supposed to be a place of accept and compassion, but I quickly found felt there was lots of things there was unacceptable to say. Like you mentioned they say "a higher power", but they ONLY mean god.
@@AnneSofieLovesMozart yes! They say it can be anything, but there are implicit criteria for it. For instance, asking a higher power to remove your shortcomings requires that power to be both willing and able; if you believe in an impersonal deity that doesn't involve itself in human lives, where does that leave you?
@Francesca Treharne You have another experience of it, but I had a completely different experience in the time I was in AA. I can see that AA and NA and so on is really helpful for many people, I'm definitely not denying that. I just didn't like that particular approach that those 12 step programmes have.
And if you’re a woman there are plenty of guys there trying to “13th step” as they call it. I really think it’s such a toxic brain dead environment. Having sober friends from rehab did help but meetings were just this place my body had to be in order to stay sober because I was told that was the rule. Also, here in America meetings are required for just about any drug or alcohol charge. It’s a cheaper alternative that providing actual mental health services.
AA is more a thinly veiled religious organization than a recovery program. It does work well for the people it works for, but that's the minority given AA's abysmal success rate.
I really hate AA. I was forced to go for years and I could never get sober. When people stopped shoving it down my throat and I was able to get sober on my own, I was finally able to after years of trying. I’m sober a year now. Before that I was in AA for 4 years.
This is my story as well.
Forced by who?
THIS is exactly why I left AA! I couldn't get past the first 3 steps much less the others. I've been sober for half a year on my own!
Yes
I've met many Christians who don't just believe that the good things you do are because of god or the holy spirit, but they also want to absolve themselves of responsibility when they do things wrong. They think that if they slip up, it's because they're being controlled by the devil and need to be prayed for. So much for the whole free will concept lol
I'm a Christian and I don't think that way, if I mess up it's me, myself and I that messed up lol...but I used to be in 12 steps and know people that did horrible things and others would be like "oh they just haven't been doing their steps" no it has nothing to do with the steps, with or without the drugs they are just morally shitty people
i feel like in a way, 12step was never designed to be long-term successful to begin with, because in many places, it has a whole industry surrounding that which profits off addicts coming back over and over and coming back to rehab and paying the costs of rehab, over and over again. if they were cured for life, then they wouldn't have a need to continue funding such programmes after the first time...
12 step programs are free. People take time out of their day to speak and give you free booklets. Relapse isn’t failure. Not everyone goes to rehab. Psychiatrists make money too. Health care is not free here
@@lanietalk she said the industry surrounding it not the meetings themselves and I entirely agree with that
@@lanietalk books aren't. They cash out a shitload. Tradition 7, self supportive.
@@lovorka3321 You're not saying AA doesn't make money, right? It generates millions a year
@@jasonwillett2126 I'm saying it makes a lot of money. But they make it look like they don't which is how they do everything, they pack lies and serve it as truth. Sick.
As an atheist I couldn't make 12 steps work for me.
It does not work for a variety of spiritual beliefs really.
Most Christians can't even make 12 steps work.
12 Steps: You need god
Addict: Praise Shiva
12 Steps: 👀 Not that god
Apparently your higher power can be anything. 12 steps didn't work for me and I did it myself. Not for myself, for my dog. He's a difficult dog to understand if you don't know him, so I didn't want to die and leave him. Someone suggested my dog should be my higher power coz he knows what he's doing and what he wants. He's not distracted by overthinking. I was like "that's because he's a dog"!
AA/ NA Only works for about 5% of people.
The Surprising Failures of 12 Steps
www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/the-surprising-failures-of-12-steps/284616/
This is the second time in my life you have driven me to tears. A few years ago I was suffering from an eating disorder and watching you helped me cope with constant nausea and weaknesses.and now you helping me with my alocholism. Thanks is all I can say!
I think 12 step programs are a product of their time. I mean in 1939 when AA started there really were not really any proper mental health services for addiction and alcoholism was not even really treated as legitimate at all. So it was better then a hole in the head but that is not saying much. I went the DIY way myself with alcohol. That being said one thing I think they do get somewhat right is the social aspect of making people feel they are not completely alone in the world and not the only one struggling through this fight.
hooo i know, reading that old literature is really something haha. glad you found what works for you :).
No need. Anyone with half a brain can figure that out themselves. My dogs are better companions then this crap.
I don't like the "I'm better than you" mentality that a lot of the hosts have
++ the AA I went to as well told me I shouldn’t take my methadone / weed / anti anxiety’s and stuff like that. Super toxic and they would shame the people who relapsed horribly , so nasty. I shouldn’t be told by NON DOCTORS not to take my prescriptions !!
1000%. Also that forced social interaction every day full of an hour of triggering conversation is definitely not the best for all people. AND because the majority of people are going while still sick, looking for a reason to get clean, it can just create this daunting circumstance that you feel like you can never even step up to the barrier of entry to.
Being on methadone or on benzos under a doctors prescription is accepted in NA from what I’ve seen,i know for a fact that they don’t view maintenance as using and allow monitored patients in,same goes for non recreational benzodiazepines,I’m sorry you had to hear that horrible unprofessional advice but i also know people who actively attend meetings and are prescribed these substances,no one should tell you you can’t take it if a doctor prescribed it to you and you’re not abusing!,they can encourage you to try and taper if you want to but it is entirely up to you!
@@AnatoliKap it's changed over the years and it varies from group to group, so not every one enforces this, but it is a very common issue.
@@Clara-eu3mp at least in my area, methadone and other maintenance medication is absolutely not considered as a viable recovery option. No one will sponsor you, you can’t collect keytags or do step work until you’re off of maintenance medication. You can continue to go to meetings, but people will make it clear to you that you aren’t, in fact, clean.
@@notaperson9831 that's terrible! It must scare so many people away from reaching out.
I went to eating disorder meetings (12 step) however it didn’t help, instead I found out about these black market laxative and woke up in the ICU. Not good
My MIL is a bigwig in the OA business and frankly, the least cognizant human I know.
that is nightmarish. i have always heard horrible things about OA
luiysia I wasn’t technically in OA I was in a twelve step ED group but it was filled with bulimics and anorexics sharing tips
Some groups of people should not have group therapy. (Many men/oldtimers hate to hear that, but it is group therapy) For example, group therapy for those of us with borderline is likely to backfire. You learn new ways to act out, for example. And it can quickly become competitive.
@@C-SD competitive, exactly. the NA meetings i've seen had everyone trying to one-up everyone else with their horror stories & fetishizing their drug use to absurd extents. court-ordering people to go to these things is right up there with DARE in populating prisons with drug "criminals"
Thank you! I quit my "drug of choice" as they like to call it, over ten years ago. I still drink and I occasionally smoke weed. But I did it on my own and I'd rather die than use the other drug again. I went to a few meetings, but I knew the other people were just LYING and smiling and receiving pins they didn't really earn.
It can be done. We need to learn moderation. Prohibition DOESN'T WORK.
Congratulations on your recovery, Rowan! 😊💜
So I can do heroin on the weekends only.. yea no. “One is too many & more is never enough” There really is no moderation for an addict.
Maybe if it’s not your drug of choice but even then, I know many who have never had issues with alcohol and thought they could drink occasionally after hard drugs.. they became full blown alcoholics or went back to drugs because the alcohol wasn’t doing it for them. I occasionally drink myself but very rarely & unfortunately I’m part of the very small minority, most addicts just don’t work like that but everybody’s different
@@motherofaxolotls2222 see that’s the thing I don’t like about AA/NA, they act like all addicts are the same, and that the 12 steps are a one size fits all solution. not everyone needs to fully abstain from all drugs, not everyone needs to go to meetings to stay sober, etc. I literally had people tell me that if I didn’t go to meetings I would go back to using drugs and die. Guess what, I didn’t, I have stayed clean off of opiates, but I can have a drink with friends, or smoke a little from my weed vape sometimes without issue. I’ve never had the whole one is never enough issue, I don’t even like to be too high or too drunk, never did, even during my addiction I just used enough to feel mild affects. I purposely never used a needle because I didn’t want to get too high. Everyone is different and that’s okay.
@@aliciam3542 Well said. That was my experience with 12 step. Absurd one-size-fits-all approach. I used to have a problem with alcohol. Don't anymore and meetings had nothing to do with that. I still enjoy weed and occasional psychedelics with no problems. If I stuck with AA I'd probably still have the temptation for alcohol since being surrounded by alcoholics talking about it and being denied the therapeutic benefits I had gotten from weed and psychedelics would've made recovery much, much harder.
Wait.. they call it "drug of choice" after saying you're powerless? 😂 I...
I have a condition, MS, where you literally don't know what's the next bad thing that it's going to happen with your body and yet the first thing you are told is that you a have control because knowing that there's something you can do it's very important for your mental health. I can tell by experience that feeling powerless is horrendous, so telling someone that's how they should feel, it's not only that I have doubts on how it can actually help in terms of mental health, it's that I think it's cruel.
I hate when people tell me how I should feel and think they're somehow helping me.
Yes, I totally get and agree with where you're coming from. Autoimmune disorders run in my family, I have them, and my grandfather had MS. Tough disease, but you can and will learn how to manage It! Take care :)
I work at a hotel, we have events for A&A and we always find $1 liquor bottles hidden in the bathroom, i feel bad. Support system is nice, but its like theyre pressured to follow the rules.
Yes and if you let old timers know you smoke weed, or you quit with subs or methodone, you will NEVER be sober to them.
@@mentalalchemy4819 completely.
Because they’re people trying to get sincere help and the only help they’re allowed is to convert to the faith of the sponsored missionaries whose whole purpose is to target addicts for building their congregation. Religious shame cycles in particular tend to create escalation in indulging in perceived devious behaviors, so something that starts out harmless or self destructive but not hopeless by any means, become more and more distorted by the way your own worthiness is distorted, your sense of value is distorted, and the plethora of human evils whatever your 12 step faith’s god condones become justified to you. God allows them. God and his people can protect you. This makes a cycle where people who could’ve been sorted out with empathy and hard tested information and medicine, are funneled into repeating abuse cycles, or starting new ones out from themselves.
It’s sick. It reminds me of how MLMs prey on grieving people.
@@Lucifersfursona when you mentioned MLMs, a tiny lightbulb went off in my head. I'm going to be thinking a lot about that comparison...
Except no.
There are no rules in AA.
Only suggestions.
I've known 12 steppers who considered having something cooked in a wine sauce to be a relapse lol! Tried NA for years, finally clean from heroin for over three years without the 12 steps and loving life.
Lol. The same with vanilla extract. Ckean for 2 years myself after finally ditching AA/NA . Congrats in your sobriety!!!
@@bonniehowell4259 thank you!
But not everyone in AA feels like that, and what works for them and keeps them safe is ok
NA did nothing but make me a worse addict. I found it such a humiliating experience, and I got this idea that I was powerless and only a higher power could save me but I had zero belief in any higher power. And being told I was doing it wrong made me just shame spiral that I was a lost cause.
I got past addiction on my own, literally with no help at all. I did it slow and took my time; everyone said I would crash and burn but they were wrong. It's been 3 years since that decision (and leaving an abusive situation), and I just hit the ground running. 3 years later, I'm still good. It's been a full 180 and it felt SO good to know that I am the one that made it happen.
At the end of rehab for tech addiction you get your phone back.
People in recovery for sex addiction are allowed to have sex.
Interesting to think about
:o you’re right
Neither of those addictions will kill you right on the spot. If you do drugs like heroin, you might just die right then and there
Same as food addiction. Therefore your mindset must change around it.
Smoking is completely overlooked. In AA/NA/CA. Although it’s an addictive mind altering substance. Even although the program promotes freedom from all mind altering substances….contradiction much. It’s even encouraged at some meetings. Through having a smoking break.
I have to surrender to god but... god gave me the addiction.... I’m so confused 😓
RIGHT! God's plan, right?! Lol
So you think you have no responsibility over everything that you do?
@@loris7060 i don't think that's what they meant. I think they meant that the program they were in said that god gave them their addiction as a test of strength and they have to surrender to god to be healed again.
Which is stupid but it sounds plausible to me
Nooooo, god just gave you an opportunity to get closer to him by humbling you through addiction… there’s always some hair brained justification with the religious nut jobs.
Nooooo, god just gave you an opportunity to get closer to him by humbling you through addiction… there’s always some hair brained justification with the religious nut jobs.
I always thinking about 12 steps as almost some kind of cult.
In collage I meet ppl from program In my classes, and as dda myself I find this extremely painful and harmful for me, and for them is very missleading and toxic. This walk of shame is act of self destruction and may be as dangerous as alcoholism in my humble opinion.
I agree. I've been to a lot of meetings in the past and every single meeting gave me major cult vibes. The language, the alternating between love bombing and intense shaming, the steps, the room of people chanting in unison in every damned meeting (!!!!), insisting you needed to give up all will and power to "god"/their meetings and saying you'll never truly recover so you need to go to AA/NA meetings for the rest of your life...too many things about it were just massive red flags. Plus there were always dealers waiting outside - what a toxic soup.
My longest bouts of recovery were entirely self directed and I stayed the hell away from meetings because by then I'd learned that it was not a good scene for me. Finding a counselor who is trained in addiction and taking medication if needed has been much more helpful in my own personal experience. And taking control over my own recovery is so much more empowering and positive than being told I'm weak, I'll be weak and powerless forever, I'll be an addict forever, and need some god I don't believe in to...well, not even fix me because apparently even god can't truly fix addiction - if he could, how would they convince people that they needed to keep coming to meetings, right? Hmm...🤔 😂
My mother was an alcoholic who never recovered. I had read about the 12 steps decades ago and came to the same conclusion you did, they just don't make sense other than to keep someone downtrodden. People who are addicted often have other mental issues and these need to be addressed and the person needs to be empowered to do so. Everyone has value and when they see that in themselves, their life always gets better.
Also, these programmes can be dreadful for the very vulnerable, those who'll go for years, almost a brainwash, destroying someone's character by letting them know they're hopeless and need to humble further, make them aim to start from scratch whilst occupying their time with things they must do if they hope to move forward, push them to find a trigger, reminds me of trama based mind control.
Its horrible.
Exactly
There is absolutely no allowance for trauma in the programme and fellowship. This is appalling. I was in AA for 20 years. At first it helped me, but for a long time I think it just shamed me.
It absolutely makes sense to me that addicts can learn to moderate their use.
I never bought the idea that if you were addicted to one drug, you will be addicted to any drug you try, either.
mhm yea. it just seems like fearmongering and its really offputting,, being able to drink (for example) socially without worrying is a huge plus in my opinion!! regaining something like that would be great and it almost feels like they do that whole 'all or nothing' thinking to make lifelong recovery less likely so they can keep making money off the same addics who have bad relapses bc off the all or nothing mindset
@Cee-c for real lol. The thing that actually saves lives.
People are capable of finding their moderarion point.
Agreed, I have a pretty bad coke binge habit, so I avoid that completely. However I still enjoy hallucinogens that have never caused me grief, so am I sober? No. Am I still struggling? Not at all
@notaperson9831 not everyone wants to be saved. Did you consider that? Now sex addicts? Ha ha. No chemicals. O M G. What will AA DO ?
I couldn't stand them "you'll forever be broken keep coming tho" bad vibes,cliques, drug deals AT meetings. NOPE. This is so important
They say, "Keep coming back, it works." These untrue cheesy slogans. No, it doesn't work, don't go back, find something that does work (for you)-
Yeah, I couldn't handle the part where ppl seemed to be obsessed with identifying as a piece of shit. I'm over it. I got so sick of thinking & talking about alcohol all the time!! I'm at a point where I'm just done with it & I don't even want to drink because I know what happens &I immediately feel sick anyway.
for realllllll i also couldn't vibe with the "u have a god shaped hole in u"
@@ashmac87 for real like i got sick of fucking calling myself a piece of shit & talking about heroin & all the crazy, awful things i did
The logic of 12 steppers. "You are Powerless over your addiction! Wait why aren't you recovering? You aren't trying enough. LAZY!"
Telling someone they are powerless then blaming them for being powerless is a little twisted and sadistic.
It's not you are, it's you WERE. I think a lot of people don't actually look at the program, but at the fellowship. The fellowship can be toxic as shit, but the steps helped me deal with a lot of my childhood trauma that kept me addicted
@@waynelscheurer5453 See, we are actually agreeing here. I said "12 Steppers" not '12 step programs.' I was talking about the toxicity of the 'fellowship'. Had more than a few friends who were recovering addicts. Most of them described the rhetoric as being present tense the whole time. They hung around me because i didn't drink until my late 20s and that made them feel safe when i wouldn't drink around them. They told me about the programs they went through. Toxic would be putting it lightly for some of them. I had to do my share of building people back up after their 12 step fellows broke them down. Got slapped by one of their 'mentors' when i said "god loves you even when you are an addict." Even if the programs aren't Sadistic, some of the adherents sure are, and that is who i am railing against in my comment up there.
and now that you mention it, their Materials for the most part said 'were powerless' but the mentors said 'are powerless.'
It was refreshing to hear another who isn't a fan of 12 step. I'm currently recovering from an opiate addiction and I get told all day long to 12 step and that I'm not really in recovery because I'm not in 12 so hearing someone who also sees flaws in the program makes me think I'm not crazy
And not to mention as a young abused women that sponsors are often creepy old men
THIS! it's such a huge issue that no one seems to talk about
Even if you’re not a woman. I know a guy who was sexually assaulted by his sponsor. As if he needed another issue on the pile.
Women are supposed to sponsor women and men sponsor men
There is a really good documentary called "The 13th Step" by Monica Richardson It documents the abuse of power towards new people in the these groups-
Of course they are, its an industry of old perverts praying on vulnerable girls.
Thats the real world sorry to say, and its never gonna change. Its a world of hate and pedophiles.
Yikes the first steps sound like a hazing period. I told my therapist I would try to only drink two nights per week, she wanted me to make a goal that would be easier to do than one night a week.
I’m going to distract myself with music and art tasks that I couldn’t do if I was shitfaced.
Or exercise because no more alcohol calories.
Just a suggestion that works for me I take 2 weeks off drinking a couple times a year that’s how long it takes your body to detox booze
I found drinking tea at night helped. Especially the lavender stress relief.
I like that your therapist helped you choose a realistic goal! Hope it's been going well :)
The twelve step theory, especially NA, is that getting buzzed opens the door to the cage and the tiger gets out. I have 38 years clean and I have seen this syndrome over and over and over again. Even the antidepressants open the door. Only seen 7 people thane antidepressants and stay clean long term. My experience has been completely different from yours.
I go to a ton of meetings and have a lot of friends in 12 step. For me it is a very good life.
I'm been an opiate addict since I was 16 (I'm 23 now) and I tried many things to get clean. In NA, i enjoyed the comfort of having people root for me and listening to other people's stories to feel less alone. I was never big on talking about my own issues but I loved hearing from others.
However, I completely agree with you about most everything in this video. I cant even count how many "first day" tags I collected after collecting my one month, 3 month etc and feeling like such a failure and doing the walk of shame in front of all the other members after admitting I relapsed once. It was devastating and "starting over" felt impossible sometimes when in reality I wasnt. I didnt go out and binge for days, I used once and the idea that I had to give up all I worked for was so damaging.
You're awesome girl, good for you for finding out what's right for you! Everyone will have different things that work. I'm still finding that out but I know I'll get there.
eva, as a person helped by 12 step, i just wanna say that's awesome that you were honest and went back to day 1.. i bet it was inspiring to a lot of people and helped them keep coming back when they felt shame.
for me the sharing is the best part.
Yea. You werent starting over at all thats why its so damaging. You knew you were mentally better off than before and werent actually on day 1. My sobriety date is 9/3/19 and i will often be shames for forgetting that date because the date is so trivial to me
Walk of shame?
stopped going to meetings when i realised they tend to attract a very specific kind of person - people who love being on their soapbox, talking about themselves for as long as they're allowed, whether it's about how great their lives are now they're sober or what a horrible disgusting POS they are/were. it's a massive, one-uppy circlejerk in my experience. and thats not to mention the predatory older men who, retrospectively, definitely tried to exploit the fact that i was a 20 yr old woman in early sobriety. you couldnt pay me to go back.
I spoke to a counsellor on the phone like that. Alchohol was a devil for me. Blah blah
Your experience of AA is exactly the same as mine! I'm an introvert, but I feel shamed into speaking all the time, or I'm accused of not contributing to the meeting by my sponsor.
I know the eating disorder 12 step program was really fucked up when I tried it. I wasn't even allowed to go to people for support by talking about my struggles. I wasn't allowed to say what I was struggling with example is I wanted to purge I couldn't say "I'm really wanting to purge rn, can I have some help through this?" I had to say "I am thinking about participating in behaviors". There was no forum of connection and I was forced to feel like I couldn't talk about what I was going through. The program just made me feel further alone in my disorder. This caused me to take much longer to recover then if I had never tried 12 step.
Go r as e ex eeee ex
Very, very small thing I want to add: When you talked about the total abstinence rule, you mentioned other people's negative reactions at social gatherings if one refuses to drink alcohol and how that causes the addiction to be "in the room". I just wantes to add that this probably depends on your social circle; I know a number of people who never drink alcohol (for various reasons) and our social circle accepts that fine... may be an age group thing or a "my social bubble thing". But it is possible with the right people to say you don't drink and nobody blinks.
Sounds really weird... Are there really people who try to force people to drink? Sounds like something someone with a drink issue would say to excuse the fact that they lapsed....
Self positivity is what gets me through every day of my life..... I've been to hell and back and some very dark places.... I've been dealing with all the negatives in my life and all the disasters its given me..... we need positivity and not people who you think are friends pushing one down even further..... unfortunately those closest to me still don't understand.... but I do my best every day and it's the best I can do.... I've been to the edge of self destruction but I'm still here.....
I'm glad you're still here, Neil. Keep fighting and finding ways to be positive every day, I've been trying to do the same. Hang in there and take care. 💜
Reminds me of a saying from a YTer I watch Jake Monro, he says “Today was a good day, because I made it one.” Not a bad attitude to have, because it matters most how we react to things, and what we give weight in our lives
I've been thinking a lot on the more sinister/flawed aspects of 12-step and I couldn't agree with you more! One of the aspects that I find most harmful is the reinforcing of catastrophic thinking: "You had one slip-up! All of your efforts were for NOTHING! NOTHING!" Well, what about all those weeks, months, or years sober? Why would they suddenly count for nothing? Those were times when you weren't making an ass out of yourself, or disappointing your friends, or whatever form of hurt ones addiction takes.
Also, how major was the slip? You have to put things in perspective. Breaking your own rules but without any negative consequences (other than maybe a sense of shame/disappointment) is way different than going on an all-out bender. Saying both are equally bad and cracking down on ones self equally hard is not a good path to go down in the pursuit of mental health.
Refuge recovery saved me when AA didn't speak to me. If you're struggling and are into buddhism, highly recommend
Nice! How does the Buddhist perspective approach it? Im very devout to the practice of liberation from Avidya (the three poisons of all suffering, Ignorance, Aversion and hardest Attatchment... Tbh yuh, three words answer all things if you meditate pn the where and how) so i could see that, and have used that, to help defeat my own addictions. But im defo interested on their methodology diff.
@@SombreroPharoah Refuge itself takes elements of buddhism, mindfulness, meditation etc. It doesn't dive 'deep' per se but the more knowledge the better. Most meetings consist of a half hour silent/guided meditation, and a topic/discussing struggles for an hour. No chips, no ones an 'addict' or 'alcoholic,' no cakes. Here's a link to their meetings, may be one near ya :) refugerecovery.org/meetings
Refuge recovery was one of the classes in my rehab and it makes so much more sense! Thank you Buddha 🥺🥺
your hair looks great dude! and this MAKEUP is SO BEAUTIFUL!
*edit: careful talking bout onision rn hes copystriking everyone cause theres those nasty "allegations" lol
all I have to say without rambling on and on about “me me me” and my journey (which I always do on your great-topic videos especially about EDs and addiction) is THANK YOU. to put it bluntly, NA triggered the fuck out of me. a single mention of any of my favorite drugs made me shake and sweat, literally and figuratively. I’m almost 3 years clean and have not been to a single meeting in 2.5 years, nor did I ever get a sponsor. being around other addicts, especially who were struggling as much as me no matter the length of time they’d been clean, made me want to get high, period. I would walk out of there feeling more motivated to get high than ever. and I feel you on the paganism part that we put out energy but we don’t leave it at that, we work on shit by ourselves too. and even an attempt at the steps took over my entire life, leaving no room for actual life. how bout just go to therapy and mend your relationships by proving your trust back to the people you fucked over, and taking care of yourself? putting all the power in everyone but yourself is a HUGE WASTE. LaVeyan Satanism has better morals than that.
love you!
Thank you for this video. I have never been an addict but my father was a raging alcoholic. When I was four my mother grabbed my six siblings and I into this old mini van and we lived about a year couch surfing until my dad left the house. A couple years later my mom started talking about Alanon and Alateen. Alanon being for spouses, adult children, or friends of alcoholics and alateen just being for teens/children of alcoholics. I was to young to go to either but my older brothers went to meetings and I saw a small bit of improvement. They became fired up about it, I remember going to "Round Ups" and stuff the only way I can explain it is basically a comicon but for AA and alanon. We were poor so these were pretty much our vacation. I started meeting when I was 11, I was stoked because I had allot of issues due to my older brother constantly bullying me and past trauma with my dad. I wasn't sure what do expect but I wish I could have pulled myself out of there and gone to a therapist instead. The woman who was running it was controlling and condescending. She would often use phrases that were impractical but would get in your head. One that pisses me off to this day was "You choose to get angry" whenever I would tell her about something that was making me mad. I tried to stop myself from getting angry but to no avail and just ended up getting angry at myself, it seemed like that is what it wanted, but I was always wrong. As I got older I became more hostile and depressed but tried my best to work the program. The last round up I went to I shared my story and it makes me shudder to this day that I told an atiruom full of people my darkest days. Finally at age 14 I woke up to the fact that I was being manipulated and in order to recover I had to kick the program. I remember the final time I said "Keep coming back it works if your work it" with the largest grin on my face because I knew I would never come back to that BS again. I'm happy to say at the age of 19 I am working towards a better life with a therapist that doesn't treat me like trash.
I can’t believe there is someone that feels exactly the same way as I do, I was thinking about making a video about it but after watching yours there’s literally no point, I’m so happy you made this because it’s reached a lot more people than I would’ve been able to. I went to rehab when I was 18 for hard drugs, and always had a huge problem with the 12 steps, I never got past the first one but somehow I am the only one I know from my rehab friends that hasn’t had a horrible relapse...I’m 28 now. The only reason I ever went to an AA meeting was to find drugs. I know that’s messed up, but it’s the best place to find connects after you’ve wiped your phone. I used to smoke weed before I got a job in medical where they drug test, and I still drink. I haven’t had a problem with either. I quit smoking cigarettes which is honestly harder than quitting heroin in my opinion (at least it was for me) and I did that by myself I did not need a higher power.
Edit: I only assume cigarettes were harder to quit for me because I smoked for 15 years and only smoked a couple grams of heroin a week for like 6 months. Not dismissing how horrible heroin is to quit, my cousin just died from an overdose. I just got lucky in that aspect. I shot up twice and did not like it. It was “too strong” lmao. (Idk why that’s funny to me, I guess it makes me feel like a pussy lightweight, but I’m lucky I am) My problem was ecstasy, I rolled for an entire year straight. Serotonin went bye bye. 10/10 would not recommend.
I think there are plenty of reasons to make a video like this and i encourage you to do so. TH-cam needs more content calling out 12 step programs and every voice and video counts. Please do put your thoughts and criticism of 12 step recovery out to the universe ! It needs it , we need it!
so if those with eating disorders were to use a 12 step program,
Step 1
"I am powerless over my ED"
Ana "starve then"
Mia "B/P then"
Ednos "starve, Binge or B/P"
all EDs in unison
"Is this a challenge?"
"Challenge accepted!"
So the 12 step is an instant failure!
for those that are unaware, eating disorders are similar to addictions, the major difference is you can live life without using drugs, but you can't live without food.
thank you for the quality content! keep it up!
and Russel Brand has Just released a 12 step program, so I wonder if it's been adapted or if its the same basic premise?
Russell Brand is a whole other story 😂
I believe it's just the regular 12 Steps but in his own words, unfortunately. That's what I've heard any way. 😒
I did russel brands version its just like regular 12 steps but he swears and talks about his life and his interpretation he did good with step 4 it wasnt as self deprecating as i seen in other situations but other then that it was kinda the same
Brand is one of my all time favourite comics....but hes not your average person. Hes quite narcissitic and 12 step may have suited him(the archetypal AA speaker who loves telling a captive audience every week how low they got!!! How they survived!!!! How they are still alcoholics/sinners!!!! But they are actually amazing...but no they are still addicts/wretches!!!!) he still has quite a good attitude to addiction and is a proponent of the anti-"one size fits all* take that the government etc have.
"so if those with eating disorders were to use a 12 step program, "
The problem here is that the step was created for alcohol. Period.
The people that created the 12 steps did not in any way say it works for anything else at all. If you know how the steps are designed you can actually say they are created for alcohol specifically and nothing else.
0:47 I haven’t seen the whole video yet, but I’m just thinking of something Telltale Atheist said in a video once: a lot of 12 step programs are problematic cuz of how religious they are and in that they expect you to use God as a means of recovery while your reason for recovery should be focused internally instead of externally. He did a whole video on it tbh and it’s a good watch.
"Dear God, Onision", indeed
sounds like theyre taking advantage of the fact that addicts often replace addictive behaviour with other behaviours; people get addcted to NA
There's no one size fits all any area, it's hideous when someone tries hard only to be told they didn't try hard enough or take it seriously because it didn't work for them.
I'm so glad I found this video. I was in 12 step for 3 years and almost relapsed several times. I had such low self-esteem, felt like I was weak, and was full of so much guilt because I just didn't believe in God. I remember feeling so awful the first time I went through step 4. I had listed down all my resentments (a lot of them were against those who had abused me), then I was told I had to find the part I played in each one. So, I was abused and I had to determine how I was at fault. Then, when I couldn't forgive my abusive ex, I was told to pray for him until I found I could forgive him. So there's forgiveness shaming too. Just over a year ago, I ender up finding a secular/nontheistic recovery program, which I'm still part of today, and it has helped me so much.
Thank you so much for your input on this. I am an ex-member, and almost every point you made was a fleeting thought that I had at one time or another, when I was in the program. I can still remember the day when I felt emboldened enough to voice this with some of my fellow members, and it nearly incited a riot among them. One person actually told me, “You really need to change your attitude. You’ll never get better if you don’t.” That was 3 years ago, and I’m still sober. 😎
I absolutely love this. I went to a meeting when I was one month into my sobriety and just found it so bleak and soul crushing.
It was interesting hearing people’s stories and how my own habits and behaviours matches up with theirs but I just felt so ‘other’ that I can’t imagine I’d go to one again.
22:17 something in thinking of right now that could be useful as a metaphor is a kind of craft project for self harmers to track recovery. So you make this paper chain of all these pretty colors, one links for everyday free of harm, but if you have a relapse you don’t stop the chain and start over, you just put a white link instead, keep the chain going, keep your story going. It’s a part of your journey and relapse doesn’t mean your journeys over, it’s just a dip in the road.
Really interesting video. Completely agree about the banging on about misery. I did 9 months in a non-12-step rehab then tried 12-step for a while out of curiosity. Stuck with it for a few months and went through the steps but I just got sick of hearing the same shit all the time... People trying to one up each other on their misery. I wanted to move on with my life... I got a few bits and pieces of wisdom along the way but honestly it felt like a trap, there's nothing productive about it at all.
They get addicted to going at these meeting. It's just a change of addiction. I'm a aspie just like my kid's and altough i do need to keep track of our specific interest so they do learn how to manage these and keep up with life.
oh yeah that is toally true, the meetings become the new addiction. but for people like me, i have to be addicted to something so i want it to something relatively positive hah.
I am a recovering addict, I’m over a year clean and solid in my recovery now. It’s so refreshing to hear your point of view about 12 Step Recovery, because I feel the same way and was kinda being made to feel bad about it. Why I say that is because other recovering addicts and even my therapist makes me feel like just because my every waking moment is not centered around my recovery that it’s a bad thing! My days are filled with working, my husband, son, pets, housework, etc. I’m just happy to hear someone else feels the same way I do and what I’m feeling is not wrong! Thank you!!! BTW, I’m new to your channel but I absolutely LOVE it!!!
I have 38 years clean in twelve step. Got clean at my first meeting. I don't miss it. I was almost dead when I showed up. I bought the program hook, line and sinker. I love it and have a great life. Just sayin.
i appreciate so sincerely that you’ve made this video. i’ve had quite a while of recovery and against everyone’s will, i did it without the twelve steps. meetings were a bad place for me in early sobriety and they’re a bad place for me now. thank you for articulating so well why they didn’t work for me and reaffirming how it is possible and good to be sober without a program.
I tried the 12 steps, and I fell off the wagon during the tour of shame. I thought that I was doing the right thing, since I was told it was the only thing. Thank you so much for this video, because it was so damaging for me, and its so validating to hear that it's not just me.
12 step has always bothered me in a way. (I've spent hundreds of hours at AA and NA meetings)
I'm taking life and mental health advice from someone who has no knowledge outside of their personal life experiences, I never felt comfortable taking such heavy advice from sponsors.
Also many people use meetings as a free dating scene. Or a place to show off themselves.
At times I'll find a genuine meeting but often it is rare.
I've seen sooo many toxic people guide others and it did not turn out well.
Also the steps always ruined me. And some of the steps require a SEX list. Yes a sex list. As someone in a relationship the last thing I want to do is write down everyone I ever slept with and why.
I just spent over three weeks going to those meetings, sometimes more than three times a day, and honestly felt like my life was being taken over. Some meetings were really good and positive, but some were incredibly depressing, and yeah, there are some really creepy predatory types around. I feel like I just narrowly got away from a cult.
I didn’t have to do that
The only hope I ever had with depression was that I could do something about it. To tell me I am powerless would have killed me.
A guy in Los Angeles was running a Depression Anonymous Meeting for years using the 12Steps & the Powerless aspect.
@@greatone7314 I hope he helped a lot of people. I have tried the 12 steps for addiction and it was not for me. Definitely not helpful for my depression either.
@@patti6178 No he did not..99% of the people who went there left and the 1% who stayed kicked him out of the meeting and started their own format. It certainly did not help him for sure as he is worse than ever. If it was that simple that God/HP can lift one's depression or addiction then it would be at the snap of a finger.
@@patti6178 In Missouri they have a saying "Show Me". He had nothing to show after over 30 years of 12step work, in fact the same goes for AA/NA etc
I’m not an addict but I am a person with mental illness who grew up in a very strict religious household. I was never able to get better in that environment because my mental illness was equated to a moral failure- what’s worse, a moral failure I could not control.
My main problem was anxiety. Anxiety was a moral failure because I didn’t have enough faith that God would take care of everything. How do you fix the panic attacks? Well you pray for God to give you faith and to take it away. But even faith isn’t something you can achieve. God has to give it to you.
In short, it was a horrible cycle of: have a panic attack, pray for faith, still feel horrible, now feel rejected by God because he didn’t take it away, wonder why God didn’t fix it, and have everyone else simultaneously blame me for the mental illness AND tell me I had no power to fix it.
Then I went to therapy for the first time at 22 and they told me I needed to take meds, eat better, exercise more, cut out toxic relationships, and distract myself. It worked. Surprisingly, the religious trauma didn’t.
The 12 steps are about work. And honesty. It’s a paradoxical program but has helped bring many out of the depths of despair. It’s not the only way. It doesn’t claim to be. I’m 18 days sober and I need the social structure and people that have recovered before me
It’s so nice to see someone else say this about 12 step. I gave the program a real chance when I was young because I wanted to be open minded and try to listen to ideas besides my own. I was convinced my overthinking was my problem so I tried to close my mind and give into all that stuff they said. I won’t go into all the details but it obviously didn’t work and I came to many common sense realizations very fast.
Totally agree every time I relapsed in the past it was being around other addicts. I do much better on my own, and I have a counsellor if I need them. I certainly refuse to feel shame or disgust in my old behaviour anymore, I felt these groups only wanted to talk about the bad stuff constantly, I am not powerless at all I feel I have all the power in my recovery now.
I wish I found this particular upload earlier into recovery.
I was always told 12 step programs were the only way to heal from addictions. I quickly noticed they didn't help and also felt alienated when voicing that opinion and concerns.
Personally, I found their general beliefs and procedures were more triggering than helpful.
I never understood how making people feel like they're absolute failures and go back to day "0" after one single use is helpful to your psyche let alone actual recovery.
Don't even get me started on the lie that AA/NA are secular organizations. The "Big Book's" orginal writings clearly stated "God" and was only later revised to "Any Higher Power" after wanting to reach out to a broader audience.
Regardless of the revised wording, those intentions are still clear.
While I'm a religious person myself, I feel it's wrong to guide other people under false pretenses....
Every single thing you mentioned in this video is so spot-on. What you mentioned about how being around other addicts in this space where we’re all obsessing over our addictions is really detrimental. Also really hate the idea that we as addicts don’t get to take pride in our accomplishments we make in our recoveries. This shit is hard and we deserve to be able to own the accomplishment of becoming sober.
thanks for making this video, youre easily one of the most charismatic, eloquent, and empathetic people Ive seen on youtube-impeccable sense of style, too!!
9:19 I think apologizing for some of the shit you’ve put your loved ones through is fine, but I don’t think it’s necessary to make a list of who to apologize to and for what exactly. Just look around you and see who’s stuck by your side through the whole thing and apologize for putting them through the stress and let them know how grateful you are they’re still there and to have their support. It’s doesn’t have to be detailed and specific, just a small little thing where you open up a bit to those who’ve stuck it through with you.
i think the moral inventory is kind of supposed to be like a self-reflection tool. so you can think about what you were feeling at the time, and things yoi couldn't address within yourself then. you don't necessarily have to make amends with everyone on the list, in the steps it says not to if it would cause any harm.
12 step programs give me DBT vibes; they imply you’ll need to go for a very long time, they imply your problems are due to your character, and they somehow act like it is a disease but simultaneously all the struggles you have are your fault
Hi, could you please tell me a little more about DBT? I have *most likely* BPD and was thinking of doing that therapy. What did you like and not like about it if you went through it?
Diabolical Behavioral Therapy
I admire your ability to detect the dysfunctional systems of society and your courage to criticize and question the methods and treatments that the system presents as the only right way.
As a medicine student who wants to work in mental health I find this really usefull, is clear we owe better programs for adiction recovery.
Agree! ED's don't have the luxury of complete abstinance. We could never say 'I am powerless over food.' We had to face our own distorted thinking in order to peacefully co- exist with food.
I've been in Al-Anon for basically my whole life (seriously one of me parents brought me to a meeting when I was like 4,,,,, way to young but still) and I've always thought of the first step as like,, people who try to control it or who are still trying to somehow justify they don't have a problem or as big as a problem as they do. because the point of the 12 steps is recovery, they want people to do well and try things to help, so I feel like your depression analogy doesn't really work the same. It's not saying you'll never be good again it's saying you have a problem and you can't control your drinking habits. obviously a guy who is so deep into addiction they drink hand sanitizer is powerless. I hope this doesn't come off as like,, hurtful or anything and I hope you the best but I think some of the ways you take the steps isn't how they are supposed to be taken and it's possible you went to bad meetings and they didn't cover the steps that well but I feel like this could be a little bit of misinformation,, and I'm not trying to say that you need to go to 12 step meetings to recover I agree with you on that I'm just putting in my two cents
Realmkeeper Thanks for the explanation. I don’t think a lot of people
understand step one.
The steps dont work thats it.
@@jfmorache if they didn't work then AA wouldn't still be around :/
@@jfmorache it doesn't work for everyone but saying that they don't work isn't accurate
@@realmkeeper7770 "iF tHeY dIdNt WoRk It WoUlDnT sTiLl Be ArOuNd" yeah sure keep telling yourself that lmfao
I've been watching your vids here and there but this is the one that got me to subscribe. No one ever has this right in the recovery community and you nailed it!
For what it's worth, I could never thank you enough for your content
🖤
You definitely don't have to constantly go to meetings.
Everyone has free will in 12 step programs.
Saved my life!
I think it depends really on the personality and the thought patterns (and very much the culture) whether a 12-step program works for someone or not. Many people (thinking binge drinkers for example) have the "I'll just drink one drink, I can control it" mindset, then end up getting shit faced, over and over and again. They need a downer, they need to hear, nope, they can't control it, they can't have "just one drink". Others however are so desperate, they don't believe they have any agency. I've heard many heroin addicts believe they are lost forever after they tried it, they will always be on H, etc. etc. They need to learn that they have the agency to stop using.
Thanks Dorian! I've been binge watching you for a couple weeks. Your voice and demeanour are so relaxing. I usually throw on your videos right before I go to sleep so I can listen to you talk about random stuff. I never once considered quitting anything 100%. My brain just doesn't work that way at all. I quit smoking but if I've had a really horrible ass day and I really want a smoke to unwind I'll have one without feeling guilty about it. I quit 6 months ago and I've had 3 smokes out of my emergency pack in that time. I think that's a major win! :)
Wow, you really hit the nail on the head here. Great video. I’m coming up on 3 years off opiates, and I’ve done it my own way. 12 step was very toxic from my experience, and they don’t seem to want you to recover. They say at every meeting “keep coming back” and they mean it. Thank you for the video ❤️ Cheers
I wish I could just sit with you, have a smoke and talk!
Thank you so much for making this video Dorian. It echoes my own stand and personal approach many years ago. The danger is very real. I think people with an ED past have a better understanding of all this.
I loved this video..I had already thought about some of the negative aspects of these programs before, and you totally hit on all of them in much more detail than I had even thought out yet. Completely agree; thank you so much for sharing your sensible and equally effective attitude towards recovery.
Thank you so much for this video! I definitely resonated with this. The people in the meetings say that without getting on your knees and praying, you won't get sober or be happy. I was working the steps buy could never "find" god. Last night, I told my group I didn't pray, and they recoiled lol. That night is what validated my doubts.
Also (sorry this is my second comment) but a common phrase in AA is “If you never have another drink, it’s only because you didn’t live long enough to do so”
My husband had court ordered AA/NA at one point in his life and has always remembered that bit. That’s just self-exposing that their plan does not work in the long term.
That is so bizarre. AA was what worked for me, but I've never once heard that.
@@errrktsame it’s worked for me for 14+ years and never heard that once.
I stopped going once i had good footing in my recovery (and got sick of the cliques). Two years clean i went to a meeting to get my 2 year tag and i literally was treated like i was lying. One person came up to me to say congratulations. I havent been to one since but have 5 years clean.
THANK YOU DORIAN!!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 I love that you addressed how toxic the 12 steps are. I’ve conquered many addictive battles and I’ve done it on my own, alone. I can’t buy into that cult-y shit. Thank you for speaking out for the other side of us who have made our own way, responsibly, and with mindfulness.
I can listen you ramble about anything for hourssss I love these kind of videos of yours 💕
The only thing I will correct is the “rest of your life” concept. I can’t speak for everyone else but I’m in recovery with NA and the only thing I’ve ever been told is “Just stay clean for today”. I’ve never been told that I can never drink or use again. Also, I know plenty of people who relapse and don’t spin out of control. They just hop back on the band wagon. It definitely isn’t for everyone and I agree with 99% of what you’ve said but it’s not as black and white as you’re suggesting here.
I feel like this way of recovery follows the "climbing the mountain" metaphor. Where if they slip, trip, stumble and fall down they tumble down the mountain back to the bottom. Battered and bruised, already exhausted from the hike they just made, feeling defeated, they look back up at this steep, daunting mountain. From the experience they just went through, they know it's a bitch of a climb and they have to climb it AGAIN starting at square one. Walking back over the steps they already took. Making progress that's already been made. Then, if they slip again, that's twice they have to start over, then again, and again, and again. Everytime they make a single mistake they start over more exhausted and battered then the last time. Of course some people just give up.
I think (in my humble ass opinion that I'm shouting into the void of the internet) it's much healthier to see recovery from any kind of addiction as a trail. Yeah, you may trip, hell, you might trip so bad you face plant wild animal shit, but when you fall you remain in the same place. You've still made it this far. Falling down doesn't erase the miles (or even feet) you've already walked. You may have to sit down for a minute to catch your breath, gain back your motivation, or maybe even tend to a wound if you fell pretty hard, but you've still made progress. You're still on your way to where you're trying to go, and everytime you get up from a fall and start walking again, you're only getting closer. I feel like this perspective creates a feeling of accomplishment, and hell, maybe even excitement as every step taken is bringing you closer and closer, as opposed to walking over the same steps over and over again until you build a trench that you're stuck in.
Idk, that's my two cents on the matter. I've come back to this video a few times and felt like I should say something instead of being a strange creature lurking about in the dark (although it IS in the name). Okay, I need to shut tf up now or I never will
I really appreciate sharing your experience and opinions, it is so important to talk about things that can be deemed “shameful or taboo”. Not talking about it just feeds the negative aspects of it.
Thank you so much for this video! I thought I was the only one that felt this way. I’ve been sober for over 3 years now with the help of therapy and finding new hobbies. AA is so draining man.
I find meetings more triggering than anything, sitting talking about all the fun you used to have, dwelling on all of it, it doesn't help me. I've been around people who are so judgmental if you are on methadone or suboxone. I went in looking for help when I was young, and my bf did as well, they assumed I wasn't there for myself, and acted like I didn't know what I was talking about. I've had people tell me I didn't need help, after I od'd on heroin after being on it for years. It pisses me off so much, but I'm surrounded by people like my bfs Mom who thinks it's the only answer.
I had similar issues cbt therapy they say well you fit in these boxes and these black and white statements apply to you whereas if you're a somewhat logical thinker not many of these wishy washy systems hold much hope for you as most of us are much more grey area and it really doesn't allow for that
Unfortunately there is quite a big amount of therapists that work that way, you can just not make another appointment. I have gone to 12 different therapists in different times in my life and for different matters, and I have seen only 4 of them more than once. You need to find someone that can actually get what the problem is and who actually tries to find a solution that suits you and not them. It's hard, but imo it's worth it.
I found exactly the same with CBT you fit here, it’s this, it’s caused by that.
When you don’t get it because you don’t actually fit there and it’s not caused by this or that they seem to think you are rejecting therapy and denying yourself ‘freedom’
They can’t see any way other than that from their training
@@tarawells1553 sounds like you guys need to find better therapists...
@@stalinbeballin that’s the problem, they are meant to be psychologists.
Higher than therapists.
I couldn’t agree more though.
Could do with a great therapist with a whole lot of time and I’d need a hell of a lot of money!
YES I AGREE WITH THIS SO MUCH. i'm recovering from binge eating addiction. there is a "twelve step" based basically on AA for bingers/ "overeaters" called OA and it's basically the same thing lol. i think that self-efficacy is so important in recovery so i also really had a problem with the whole "admitting you're powerless" thing. you've got to believe that you can do it, that you DO have the power to fight, in order to beat the addiction. AA/12 step just keeps u stuck in addiction mindset imo. this video really helped me believe that i CAN do it, so thank you. i really liked the bit about having a POSITIVE self-fulfilling prophecy.
i don't know how OA deals with the "total abstinence" thing because i haven't read that far, since obviously you can't "abstain" from food forever. but that dieting metaphor was spot-on. especially when addressing a binge eating addiction, you've got to learn how to deal with "slip-ups" without it turning into a full-on crazy binge every time. i agree that the "black-and-white thinking" that AA/12 step promotes is problematic & damaging.
I'm extremely grateful for havIng found your channel... hearing you speak about recovery has made me cry more than once - good cry. validated feelings kinda cry. thanks
so regarding the "powerless" thing, i agree that it sucks but for kinda a different reason? i'm schizophrenic and i am very much "powerless" against a lot of my psychotic symptoms, i can take meds and do therapy but they WILL always happen. and this idea in 12 step of being powerless over addiction made me think for a long time that my alcoholism was like my schizophrenia - always gonna be there, absolutely zero input from my own behaviour/personality/environment/etc. which made it a hell of a lot harder to recover.
Serendipitous timing for this video. Blessed be 🦇🌒🌕🌘🦇
I used to go to meetings and one thing I always found laughable is how they’d say “oh this only ONE of the ways to get sober” and then go on to say how they’re the ONLY way. They constantly contradict themselves like that.
So happy you made this!! I've been talking about the toxicity of 12 step for about a year after attending a few meetings. Love this.