Debate: Are 12 Step Programs Obsolete?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ต.ค. 2024
- Watch as Dr. Caleb Lack and Mr. Mike Rinehart take part in the Dionysium Summer 2017 show, "Habit." Dr. Lack argues for the resolution "12 Step Programs are Obsolete." This debate on whether or not AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) type treatments presents evidence showing how other evidence-based treatments are more useful.
For more on the Dionysium, visit dionysium.com
AA tries to keep you sober by spending your entire life in AA meetings. In my mind that qualifies as a cult.
It's not the intent of the organization but "just go to meetings" is how most ppl really end up "working the program". I got to a point where I realiz3d these were old drunks while I had my life ahead of me. I did the steps with a sponsor and even made some amends that were awkward af looking back. I remember getting mad at media depictions of aa but in hindsight, putting aside the craziness you expect from animated comedy most of them are spot on. I was "that guy" even after going to a program because I thought it as "that guy" at parties from how I drank. Nope. AA actually made that worse, and let me experience the anxiety of crushing self-awareness allowing me to see the exact moment I caused the other person to think "oh, he must b crazy".
Definitely not a cult. It really doesn’t meet any of the criteria for that. It doesn’t claim to hold absolute truth, doesn’t try to isolate its members from the outside world, does not follow a supreme leader, does not follow any set of rigid rules, does not threaten members with ex-communication. The program is really open-ended and allows people to go at their own pace in their own way, or to not do it at all.
If it was a cult, it wouldn’t be as harmful as it is. What makes AA so harmful is that it is seen as the only approach to substance abuse treatment. Often members believe and promote the idea that the program is some sort of panacea. That is incredibly dangerous.
But just to be generous to AA, it does provide many people a place to go and constant support. Many people going to AA have to friends, no family, no home. It is really the last house on the block for some people, and they find a community there that they love. There’s nothing wrong with that. AA does not command that people go to meetings forever. Most old timers actually enjoy it.
I know people that have been going to AA meetings several times a week for over 30 years. These people actually think that if they stop going to meetings they will relapse. Nothing could be further from the truth. Are they addicted to AA meetings? Absent-freaking-lutely! These people spend decades of their lives sitting in those meetings when they could be doing other things.
Most old timers actually enjoy going to meetings. They gain a sense of fulfillment out of them and meetings don’t hurt them or anyone else. This is not addictive behavior. They are usually going to meet friends and help people who are newly sober.
And really what else would they do with their time? Eat at Wendy’s? Watch Netflix? Play pickleball? There’s really only so much to do in a day bro. Quit acting like spending a few hours socializing with people who you love and care for qualifies as addictive behavior.
I got as much beef with AA as anyone, but I think many of the common arguments (that AA is another addiction, that it is a cult, that it is full of s-xual predators) are all pretty much nonsense.
I’m an atheist currently attending AA. 54 days sober as of 12-24-2023.
AA is definitely a religious organization. “Finding god” is right there as “how it works” is read aloud.
One of the first questions that my sponsor asked me was did I believe in god. Much to my shame, I lied and said yes because at the time I felt that I really needed a sponsor
There are other programs and fellowship that doesn't 'work' on the basis or premise of religious belief. I can't help but think how much of how it works is because of groupthink and peer pressure, and how many people will ignore and overlook the truth if there are not a bunch of people espousing it? It seems far less likely for free thinkers to come together than conformists and they are probably not inclined to question anything if it 'works.' Peer pressure as a source of power seems a really sad commentary on human nature though.
I don't care what anyone says. AA is a religious organization, that's why no one that believes in AA that watches this debate is going to change their mind even though the doctor arguing against AA clearly won the debate. It's not about recovery, it's about religion.
PS. No matter how hard AA tries to conceal this fact, their message is that God (higher power) will heal you. God does not exist. I will say this again, the only one that can keep you sober is yourself, if you believe that some invisible non-existent spirit is keeping you sober you will surely fail. In your moment of hardship you will cry out to that "God" higher power or whatever you want to call it and there will be no answer. The answer lies inside yourself.
Thank you Mike , AA has given me a good life,the twelve steps have made me a better person, most of all it is simple and free and has changed the lives of millions of families for the better, what more can a person desire.
I have done the 12 steps a few times. But I just don't know anymore. I been having a hard times. I am doing meeting yet at times I have been feeling lost at times with in the programs. I have also done SMART Recovery too. Some times I do feel more connected to the CBT approach.
Each to their own I guess whatever keeps you sober is the best for you… I’m not a fan of 12 step groups but I salute to everyone who is and who’s life is improved because of it
What is more valuable than time? AA meetings are free? Are they? How much is your time worth?
They're free but keep coming back and not putting a buck in the basket. But yeah now after years in thebprgram and with a sponsor I think you'd have to pay me to go sit in a room with a bunch of old drunks probably smoking and drinking coffee while saying their higher power thinks they're special.
They actually tell you in the AA meetings that if you don't believe in God your higher power can be anything. A tree can keep you sober. The moon can keep you sober. Your dog can keep you sober. The whole thing is insane.
PS. News flash. The only thing that can keep you sober is you.
Thats the new age aa. The book is religious batshit crazy too but it's more consistent than randos at meetings who don't have as many brain cells to spare as the founders of aa did
Funny how one of the two debaters was clearly inebriated in a debate about the effectiveness of the twelve-step program
Tevejé - who? I wasn’t, and I also won the debate 🤷🏼♂️
The voice of the pro AA/12 Step guy is rather obnoxious and I can see how another commenter might have been thinking they were inebriated. I can't view the rest on that basis alone.
As far as the some 279 12 Step groups in existence, the pro AA position seems to automatically consider that to support the validity of the model, but not only are some of them not based around substance use addiction, some are not addictions at all. I once heard one person wanted to make a 12 Step group around depression. If the particular version of the Steps are examined a good number of times it will not be significantly different from the original AA Steps, it's as if it's a copy and paste with a few words changed. When the program is not even about addiction in the first place, this situation starts looking like people are just obsessed with the 12 Steps model, and I have to wonder how much of it is just because it's popular.
btw, for those who want to cite the 279 fellowship number, have you ever considered any of those not to be addiction or maybe not a real issue? So if that's the case it's a bit contradictory to use at least all of them as a support when a good number of pro 12 Step traditionalists would turn right around and invalidate them in another context isn't it?
12 step programs are absolutely cancer in my opinion. Do more harm than good.
The step supporters opening statement was simply AA is as good as is has ever been without any citation to show it is good at all. He also open by calling his opponents datat that he cited as opinion.
Dang it I have to comment one more time. I was trying so hard not to.23:00 there it is in Spades "the spiritual solution" right there is why it does not work. The whole thing is based on bullshit.
moderatrix? lmao
oklahomans anonymous.