Why Zoners Are The Most Frustrating Characters To Fight | Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2023
- In every fighting game even outside of Smash, zoners are frequently ranked among the most hated and frustrating opponents to play against. In Smash that might even be moreso. Today we'll be discussing the zoner archetype and why everyone hates fighting them.
Mockrock's video on zoners: • The Problem(s) With Zo...
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#SSBU #Characters #Zoner - เกม
The other reasons why zoners are hated:
1: the lack of anti zoning tools
2: they are designed horribly
3: online
Reflectors:
@@dhans9662 congratulations! you just mentioned an option available to less than one fourth of the cast!
@@tommywiseau5693 And a majority of the top tiers have winning matchups to over 3 fourths of the cast, whats your fucking point?
@@tommywiseau5693Don't forget you don't even see Reflectors that often in top level play simply because it is easier to just avoid the projectile than to reflect it simply because the reflectors we do have are mediocre options, even if they do have high damage multipliers. Like a certain angry Japanese man kicking having a higher multiplier than any other reflector.
@@dhans9662damn, i wonder where kirby or meta knight have thiers 🗿
Why are zoners the most frustrating to fight? Because I'm a Ganondorf main😭😭😭
It’s even worse for me I’m an Incineroar main
@@Ciaranos what do you mean worse than ganon. you have basically the same speed except you have one of the best anti projectile in the game with down b
I main Kirby
To be fair, as a ganondorf main, isn't every archetype the most frustrating to fight except for heavyweights
my condolences bro
One thing about Smash Zoners that doesn't get brought up enough, is that if you dash forward and then get hit, you get knocked back and essentially accomplished nothing.
That's all zoners. It's the classic counterplay
@@tarantula4569not necessarily, he means in traditional fighting games you’d usually just take damage but you’d be in the same spot so you aren’t restarting
@EmeraldBlade98 oh well my experience is against peacock in skullgirls so taking hits usually is resetting
yes that is true but the difference between hated zoner in something like mk and an ok one is the fact that if you block a projectile, you still get pushed back quite a lot.
so pretty much all zoners in smash have the issue that hated zoners do
@@EmeraldBlade98 what games are you talking about?
Biggest problem is the lag online, there's a LOT of stuff that's basically unpunishable and unfair online, but if you played offline you'd see that it's actually quite reactable and punishable.
True. The non-technical zoners get such a boost in power when playing online, it's insane.
Worst part about fighting zoners is that traditionally in other games zoners benefit from excellent long range pressure at the cost of a weak up-close game. In Ult that is almost not the case as the zoners have really good close range buttons. Generally have a good up b oos like Samus and Belmonts at frame 6. Snake's normals are insane for what they do such as his grab game and dair oos. Young Link has little to no lag on his projectiles with the speed to combo off of them from the entire stage length, insane frame data on his moves like nair, and has a defensive option in up b oos that he can combo off of. And Pac Man has no reason to have some of the best boxing options in the game. The weakness that zoners have in other games is nearly nonexistent in Ult making them the cream of the crop, even thought they aren't the best of the best.
Yeah. Even the worst competiive fighting games still balance them better than Smash in the "weak close, strong long". Yes, even Jump Force with Vegeta does it more balanced.
Agree. And their recoveries aren't even that bad which makes it less rewarding for finally getting in and putting them at a disadvantage. For example Samus is a character who can stall and move around a lot off of the edge.
Also in retrospective to smash's design it's not a "fighting" game but a party game. So, the balance decisions don't really focus on the fighting game aspect.
@maestrotritone5975 well it's pvp game above all else, and in that case, you should focus on balance as it makes the game most fun. game isn't going to he very fun when your favorite characters are trash while the good characters are extremely frustrating to play against
"... even thought they aren't the best of the best." Exactly. Zoners aren't that bad when you consider there's an invulnerable heavy-weight collection of combos, a stage modifier that can nullify any hit, and the Aegis.
I feel like a lot of their issues would be resolved if parrying just reflected all projectiles like power shielding once did
Parry system is in Rivals
I don't think it would because it'd only benefit very good players and be almost impossible to do online , which for a casual pvp game, you don't want an answer to such a common obstacle be extremely difficult to pull off
@@grimsdol4665I think it would still be a great addition. That and maybe increasing lag of projectile moves across the board. Some characters projectile moves are only punishable if you preemptively call it out
@@onomatopoeia300 that's probably the best move, that and reduce max range, there's way too msny projectiles that you can spam across the stage for free and even at mid range
@@grimsdol4665Power shielding has always been easier than parrying. A beginner can more easily use reflexive L/R presses, but telling them to release shield in the face of an incoming hitbox is counterintuitive and ambiguous. Parrying was added as a kind of nerf to how effective shielding was at all levels of play. Now it is more luck-based online how most players experience the game, and it takes more total frames to pull off and need way more advance preparation to press the shield button.
Zoners would be less annoying if many of them didn't have really good options against counterplay. Samus has her insane up-b OOS, long grab range, and a great anti-air in fair and upair. Like if I have to go through your projectile obstacle course, why do you also have weirdly strong answers against the options I'm forced to use
Cause Samus gets more milage out comboing with her projectiles or comboing into them. I know theres the wifi samus meme and all that shit but she does better switching between being aggressive and passive. Hell 2 great examples are icymist and sisqui with icymist being the more aggressive of the 2
Samus's design in this game BAFFLES me
@@FartChamp69 why ? She mostly uses her gun arm in her games. She should be using it MORE to be more accurate to her games
@deathserpent9747 Because her close range options are way overtuned for how good her projectile game is. Her Fair and up special are way too strong imo for a character so predicated and rewarded for camling
@@FartChamp69 her fair cant hit grounded opponents and her up b is nerfed considering what it does in her games. She doesnt even get rewarded for camping either cause reflects exist. Her up smash is borderline useless and she's too slow to deal with characters like sonic and pikachu when they get up close. If anything, samus needs an updated moveset.
They have long and short range that's why.
Rushdown? Distance with projectiles. You manage to get close? Decent combat attacks
Campy? Projectiles.
Oh and edge guarding? Projectiles and recovery
It's one thing that there is basically only reward for the excessive use of projectiles, so much so that even characters that only have one will more than likely turn to spamming it, but even those that can be classified zoners have get off me tools and highly lethal melee range moves. There's no balance to them at all other than they might be floaty or a little slower than an agile brawler, and being floaty usually just means they likely also have good recovery on top of it all.
It's just frustrating layer on top of frustrating layer.
Touch of death characters like Kazuya (any of the FGC’s really), Luigi, and ICs are far more frustrating for me personally. I don’t like playing lame because it makes me feel like an asshole, especially if it’s non bracket games because that can make the situation awkward. The only zoners that make me anywhere nears as frustrated as them are Snake (because he’s such a privileged character) R.O.B (even though he’s a fake zoner high key and also beyond privileged) and Steve if you’re willing to count him as a zoner.
The frustration of zoners is when you’re new to the game and don’t have your movement and game knowledge locked down imo.
for me its snake. As grenade combo breaking is crazy privilege no one else really has lol. (Yoshi sort of with his flutter jump breaker)
Yeah snake grenade is kind of bs but i mean Banjo can do that too and then shulk has mallc and dial storage to sometimes break out of combos as well. This game was not properly playtested nor were the updates by any means.@@FlightX101
I feel Terry is the most fun fgc because he can SAUCE YOU but you can definitely beat him Kaz is dumb tho, not agregious, but knowing he can approach you and leave combat essentially at will because of his super armour which is the main reason Kaz is so good, remove that from enough moves and he would drop quite a bit
Yeah, those characters are definitely the more whack archetype. They excel against rushdown characters and get destroyed by boring characters like Steve, Min Min, etc.
Because of that, I'd say that they actively hurt the meta more than zoners because zoners at least tend to not do as well against rushdowns.
I personally don't mind ICs as much because there is a noticeable barrier of entry in order to do their combos, and the way that they are with desyncing can lead to some cool moments. Also they aren't entirely a "just camp them out" kind of character because Nana is super easy to kill when separated. Because of this, I think there is a good amount of value in having a character like them in the game, even if they are insanely whack if you get past the "they are hard to learn so therefore they are inherently hype" mindset that many less inexperienced players have.
also duck hunts can at least it has a frame 1 start up
Because, even though they have some of the best range in the game, they can still beat you to death at close range
As a Samus main I don’t appreciate people not wanting to fight me whenever I throw more hands than missiles
real
Its because of the trauma
That's also how I play Samus lol😂
Using projectiles as Samus❌
Throwing hands and kicks as Samus✅
Same for me (Belmont main) but it is what it is
But if you want to scrap why play Samus?
Zoners are privileged in Ultimate. In other games this archetype comes with drawbacks-- those being weak close quarters options and lower HP (like Dahlsim in SF). Ultimate has none of this however.
Zoners for some reason have good close quarters and OOS options (Min-min with Up smash and Samus with Screw Attack and Dash Attack) in this game-- meaning that even if you get past their projectiles and get up close they can still beat you. Additionally, there is very little counterplay against them, especially since there's no universal way to do so like perfect shielding in melee and reflectors in general being few and far between-- like why don't the heavyweights have ways to counter zoning and why does Min-Min have a reflector on her Up-smash? They just don't have weaknesses to balance their strengths.
As a Peach, Cloud, and Joker main, I do kinda hate fighting against zoners, but I hate Sora more. Playing Bullet Hell and Matrix-dodging everything just to get in can make you feel really cool if you actually manage to land your hits. Playing zoners, on the other hand, can also be quite fun sometimes.
You js named two of my mains
I think it's Dodging a charge shot frsme perfect might make you feel really good, until they just shield your attack
Bro all of your mains win against sora why even complain
@@EpicMinecraftFail Absolutely not. Peach probably goes even or loses, and Joker is more slight winning/even. Cloud is the only one of these that I'd say is a winning MU, but he can also just get gimped by Sora. And I wasn't complaining, because if I was, I'd say more than just "I hate Sora more." He's just annoying. That's why I dislike him. Had a friend who mained Sora and all I would hear for the next hour would be Sora saying "back off!" and "take this!" Though I mainly counterpicked Fox or Snake against him because he absolutely hated going up against my Fox and Snake.
@@bluyu Joker ain't slight winning bro, that's a very positive matchup maybe +1 or 2. But yes peach loses
I love that you showed all the zoners at the beginning in the upper left corner. As a smash beginner, I sometimes struggle with specific termini so this helps me a lot!
I think the main problem is that zoners are not being properly addressed. In regular fighting games a zoner would have limited ways to fight at close combat (if there is even any). In smash (say samus). She can just do up smash first available frame and go back to the corner. And thats the problem, zoners are being given tools that dont belong to them, another example: snake, he can kill at 90 with up till, yet heavies and rushdowns need this and most dont have it.
Long range fighters having close range tools is very capable of working. It's not inherently bad design. That much is proven by Kid Icarus Uprising having for example a melee clashing mechanic where you can have your megaton melee hit be clashed off to deal no damage, but you still have your Shots to bypass that, you still have Powers like Super Armor for setting up cross-counters, things like that.
The problem lies in insufficient direct interaction with the long range tools. That invents matchup bias. It's significantly less problematic in KIU because of Powers like Black Hole, and that shows when even overall very broken stuff like Predator Cannon Back Shot under Shot Homing+3 and Shot Range+3 can still be punched through to decent effect because of important foibles.
Megaman: "Why'd you forget me? 😢"
Because megaman for some reason fights more than zone. (Even though he IS a literal war fleet of projectiles)
Zoners are frustrating because compared to other fg there's no tradeoff between frame data, properties, range ecc. so you get swordies who can spam attacks in the air and YOU are the one who has to put all the work in surpassing all that bullshit to get a hit in, zoners with mario frame data on disjointed moves, rushdowns that spam backairs or smash attacks that are basically unpunishable and so on
So when you're fighting what feels like the same samus over and over and you finally get close and SYKE he up b's you because he can and you have to restart, well that just doesn't feel fair
Super Smash Bros Ultimate Power Creep, huh?
The problem with Zoners is that they have projectiles, but there usually isn't _any_ real downside when fighting up close. All you have to do is land one attack to get the opponent away (just one side tilt) and you're back to spamming projectiles.
I would love to see you cover diddy kong in a video, super cool and complex character:)
now this is gonna be a fun watch. Been lookin forward to this one!
I'd say that tge parry mechanic should give the option to reflect projectiles I mean melee allowed this with the perfect shield why not ultimate as well
This video was so interesting, the implicit advantage state is something I've felt countless times against zoners but this is the first time I've heard it put into words
I like playing zoners but my main is duck hunt and i love playing him because he has a key difference a lot of other zoners have that he doesnt. He isnt the best at up close scrapping. Characters like samus and snake and pacman all have amazing boxing and/or oos options, so you get through oppresive neutral and projectiles, to then in some cases getting out boxed. Duck hunt is not that at all, his options are all decent and usable, but only way you are gonna beat someone like mario in that up close game is with good awareness and spacing. It makes it more punishing, and for me fun, knowing that im not just zoning because his projectiles can be oppressive, but because i have to play in legit fear of getting opened up and absolutely stomped if they can get in.
I love duck hunt
11:14 By your definition of trapping, Duck Hunt is a trapper rather than a zoner considering that I (a duck hunt main) can act completely independent from the Can, clay pigeon, and gunmen.
WHOA A VARS III UPLOAD!! i didn’t think i’d ever seen another one again after last week 😭😭
Vars: why zoners are annoying to fight
Ranges toplaners: allow us to introduce ourselves
Me me what is frustrating about zoners in smash compared to other fighting games it that blockstring offense is SO weak in this game, where in an other game, youre fine playing "their game" since you know that once you get in, its going to be your time to have fun
the reason why they're so frustrating isn't just that zoners are bizzarly good up close, the issue is that sometimes there's statistically nothing you can do to punish them as your character in question might not have the speed to consistently punish. in a pvp game people want the better player to win. but when going up against a zoner you need to be a fast character or have a specific tool otherwise it's a massive uphill battle
This is made worse by online stages preferring Final Destination. Battlefield was invented as a way for characters to have more options for both maneuvering around projectiles and landing after a juggle. Sakurai has talked a lot about how he sees platforms as a required balance element, but understands the popularity of Final Destination.
@@WarningStrangerDanger
I play Kirby, so going high and starting a combo with dair is my go-to zoner counter, and hitting an enemy with a dair when they're under the platform is a massive pain to me 😓
@@QuokkaWaka The Zoners really don't get to choose to defend the stage AND the platforms, so simply opting for one they can't reach can be enough to put pressure on them to come up or move. I play Ness and Falcon and both don't like FD against Zoners.
@@WarningStrangerDanger
I don't want to solve camping by camping 😭
@@QuokkaWaka Don't camp, just use them to close the distance. You can mix up landing on platforms and holding down to phase through them as well as using wavelanding with L/R to weave through the spam and close the gap. This has been the purpose of Battlefield since even the N64.
Nice choice with the duel links music
Great video. I hope you continue about this content regularly if you are not capable weekly.
I've never liked zoners in any fighting game that shares space with close-range fighters because I feel like it kind of invalidates the close range on a philosophical level. The entire reason why long range weapons were even invented in the first place was for the purpose of being able to hurt/kill something from a distance and avoid *interacting* with it. Even for a time before civilization, bows and arrows were used to kill prey and other enemies in the most safe way possible, so that they can't get close and kill you.
By that logic, if you put a professional MMA fighter in a battle against some jobber with an AK-47 who knows how to pull the trigger, it doesn't matter how skilled the MMA fighter is, as long as the shooter can aim and pull the trigger, they immediately win. How is that fun for anyone except for the shooter?
Thank you for this video.
I'd still love to see a "why no one plays" on duck hunt!!!
Because he's the most boring zoner to play
@@dhans9662hes more hard tbh than boring
@@DrunkPanda239My sentiment exactly.
Min Min is easily the most frustrating for me. She has a good oos shield option that functions as an anti air and is just huge with usmash, shield isn't safe against her because her grabs boost her power, and unlike characters like Samus who momentarily pause to shoot, she can still inch forward with the arm spam
She's not broken, but my god is she one of the most aggravating characters to fight and sucks any enjoyment out of the game for me. She controls like half the stage just by existing and approaching from above is harder than it seems because her arms are fast enough to intercept you. Even after playing against her so much and after the nerfs I feel like I have no answers to this fricking character
I hate when zoners or trappers have good up close options, ROB is probably the worst example
Min Min is honestly the worst designed character in the entire game, maybe tied with Kazuya. She should not have the tools to annihilate you from across FD while also being able to outbox you consistently up close.
@@343Films I 100 percent agree. I don't care if the design is accurate to ARMS, just like how I don't think input fighters work in Smash this system is so bad to fight against
@@343FilmsI agree except kazuya at least required a really high skill ceiling compared to a spamming min min
Love the yami yugi duel links theme in vid 👍
As a Wolf main, I got a love/hate relationship playing zoners. I won against a good amount of them by either spamming blaster to make them feel my pain or using my reflector to make them thinking twice before projectiling me again
They really should bring back the power shield mechanic from Melee where parry a projectile reflects it
With my friends, we make wolf vs. Kahzuya look like Belmont vs. Duck hunt
Granted I have never played a zoner in Smash specificlly, but being aware of the risk doing a projectile has (Like if i press it can they just jump over and punish) and not getting prediactable enough to allow the opponent in can make playing neutral as a zoner a stress, but yeah fair enough about zoners having an upper hand in neutral, It is just that that advantage wanes as the opponent is closer.
Seeing duck hunt and zoner in the same sentence pains me. As brought up in the trapping video, duck hunt's can is a great trapping tool, and nearly everything duck hunt player does is a way to advance the can towards a favorable position to make their opponent die for moving. He's a textbook trapper character; his entire gameplay revolves around playing a game of tag where a dog, duck, and can are it
I disagree with people putting such a hard distinction between traps and zoning, just because you are doing zone control with a trap doesn't make you not a zoner, it just makes you a trap based zoner
@@notmyfullname598 Duck Hunt is attacking you alongside their can. while those explosive beans are being sent worldwide, the dog and duck are making sure you can't do squat about it. Both them and their projectiles are attacking you from different angles to ensure no escape. If we're going to be so lenient with the boundaries of zoners and trappers, what will the boundaries be? Trappers use their lingering objects to act while their projectiles are in ample position to block ideal options. That's Duck Hunt in a nutshell.
Another high quality Vars III video
Me after loosing to a samus in quickplay:
Zoners in smash are particularly frustrating due to how projectiles and defense work in Smash and how a lot of zoners are not really that bad at up close game aside from a couple and this says nothing about the zoners who have excellent zoning game and close quarters tools (mainly ROB).
Rob and Young Link always come to mind. Who’s idea was it to give those two characters an amazing boxing game on top of broken zoning tools?
I was wolf and was put against a righter main.
I reflected most of his projectiles and i spammed neutral b so that he feels the pain of a zoner.
I also took away his down b and it was hilarious when he tried throwing one out
As a Wolf main, I salute you king. Give ‘em a taste of their own medicine. All I see is sobers in Elite smasg
Zoners
@@blockingbeast yep
@@blockingbeast i usually play captain falcon or roy
@@Speedster428 they’re way more enjoyable to go fight as a Wolf. No hiding, straight neutraling and scraping
Thank god i play melee.
Zoners wouldn’t be so bad if non zoners had better movement speed. A lot of them do, but characters like byleth can’t do shit because you can’t get in quickly enough.
you have to make the character move faster
Completely unrelated to the video...but what is the ost playing in the background? It's fire!
The real question is sonic a zoner we will never know
How do you combat someone using that Young Link strategy? The other day I was facing someone like that online & they were a pain in the butt, I tried but I just couldn't win against them & my score really went down
Losing to a hailmary charge shot feels absolutely horrible... but ive done it too so I can't hate 😅
The things in smash is that there is no corner or wall so you can finally be in that position where the zoners doesn't want you to be and everytime you hit him you are putting him in a better position for himself. Not to mention most zoners have real fast get off me tools out of shield like belmonts, pacman, Links, Samus, Min min ( who also have a reflect out of shield so you can counter camp her).
The only problem isn't the lack of full wall for the long range fighter to get stuck on. There's also the involvement of the 2D space where you can't strafe the projectile mess and be done with it in the first place. Of course, the gameplay space involvement is inevitably just a partial explanation, since strafing inherently removes any chance of the full wall thing happening anyway, though at least it involves extra movement for both sides to read.
I should mention that Kid Icarus Uprising does involve get-off-me tools, Meteor Shower being something that comes to mind as a heavy hitting attack that is capable of that much and its being a Power makes it available to everybody who can make way for it on the Power Grid as well. However, EVERYBODY rather than just the majority of the cast has multiple projectiles even without any Powers, and the Power system itself provides tools to help allow for having an easier time majorly amplifying use of how Flintlock Staff Shots lacks any homing or size, or how Eyetrack Orbitars Shots are slow, or even that Ninja Palm Shots other than the Back Shot have low lifespan. The long range fighters can and do use the Power system too, but your acquired tools from it exist at all (just the name "Super Armor" for a Power should tell you everything about that) while theirs have inevitable checks and balances up to and including Power Grid shapes. Again, the gameplay itself is also important.
The problem with zoners is that it forces you to slow down and it’s more exhausting on the brain
Being a low tier zoner and still getting crap for it is so annoying. I play Mii Gunner, I'm slow as shit and basically have no combos. I understand people who hate Min-Min, Pacman, Samus, Link, etc but I honestly feel like I deserve everything I get.
There is a lot that makes mii gunner frustrating to deal with like Charge blast for some reason having less total frames than Samus’ charge shot or fair being this safe on shield while also creating space making it way safer than it should be (there is more, but I’ll leave it at that).
What I’m trying to say is that mii gunner has a lot of low-commitment options that do lots of dmg and they still have options to create some distance even though they are “slow” (this also applies to other zoners btw).
I thought you weren't posting on this channel?!
In the long run Samus has been more annoying to face than Min-Min, purely because of Charge Shot cancelling
As someone who mains Ness, facing zoners is a bit easier with my main since it can sometimes deny certain strategies since Ness can both heal off and reflect projectiles
PK Fire is the bane of my existence lol 😆🔥
@scottpaddlety8741 if you can't DI you gonna die
There's also few counter play options in ultimate. Imagine if your parry could reflect back projectiles. That would totally change the game by forcing zoning characters to be more deliberate every time they threw a projectile
Is this the final video before the break?
i mean it's the same thing with all matchup where u get outranged
- work ur way into a favorable distance where u either
- rock paper scisor
- you get terrain / you win the interaction/ you lose the interaction
repeat until the end to the game gg
Im quite simple. I see duck hunt, i click. Then I dont watch and wait for duck hunt to be mentioned.
Zoners have more combat tools than rushdowns lol. This game is so wack with its character balance. Projectiles are king in ultimate and if you don't have one you are at a major disadvantage lest you have a spammable disjoint. Also anyone else think about how shields use to be far weaker in ultimate and have large counterplay but then in teh first same week as release people complained about regeneration being far too slow and so they made the shields have like 5 second full regen? On top of this every patch after at some point increased shield sizes universally. Ultimate would be such a better game had the regeneration change never happened. Why does a majority of projecitle characters have longer comboes than rushdowns like fox?
I started playing falco specifically because I hated zoners and spiking them was satisfying
What is the name of the ost ? 6:05
Are Pacman and Sora zoners? Both are my mains and im curious.
Zoners are one of the major reasons I play Falco. His reflector largely invalidates them, at least at my (low) skill level. Falco is also very good against Steve if you consider him a zoner. You can reflect his minecart and anvil; it's quite a hilarious way to kill him.
Any tips for fighting a good Samus?
i want to throw myself offstage when i have to go against simon/simon clone and samus
So a lot of people like you hate the Ballmonts, huh?
Duck hunt video when?
smash ultimate has a whole has terrible competitive design choices
So, any advice on how Zoners in any fighting game can be less frustrating, and polarizing? 🤔
Im a Wolf main and I lose zoners shine being able to be jump cancelable after reflecting something is a niche interaction most people don’t know.
Of course blaster is better than some zoners too.
It should be like smash 4 where putting up a shield reflected projectiles, it would make every character more viable (unless you’re fighting min min)
That was perfect shield in melee and brawl, removed in smash 4 (I’m guessing because the 3DS couldn’t handle it)
Min min should have armor on her arms. She wins trades but can still be grabbed with precise timing.
@@classarank7youtubeherokeyb63 nah
@@classarank7youtubeherokeyb63no, she just should have a hurtbox on them no fucking reason for those to be so ridiculously disjointed and then also classified as a melee attack
As a Falco main I feel like such a jerk everytime I face a zoner. Neutral turns into forcing them to approach since he's such a reaction-based character. Usually this is just spamming laser or reflector until they get impatient. It's a reliable way to win, but I feel like such a tool when I do it. Does this mean that I have become the zoner myself?
??? Min Min and Olimar? Olimar maybe, but Min Min? If long range = zoner then where's Sephiroth and Cloud?
6:56 You say while showing Min Min, whose attacks aren't projectiles and thus is putting herself at somewhat risk to attack still. Cloud almost gets in and he's a fairly slow character, and that was Min Min using one of her moves that has the lowest endlag for how much range it has...
10:57 uhhh, skill issue
11:07 Ridley has a projectile charge for plentiful projectiles that can clash and overwhelm Min Min's arms, high air speed with a lot of aerial jumps to mix up aerial approach, and also IIRC aerials that clash with Min Min's arms, not to mention a long range command grab dash that quickly closes the gap on an endlagging Min Min, and Ridley's large size means that even with all those options it's not like he's one of the better options against Min Min, he's just still got options. Byleth has a similar situation with their neutral and side specials, though also they're a slow character so Min Min's long range should naturally be a disadvantage to them anyway. Ike is an extremely slow fighter so it makes sense that he struggles to approach, though even then with the right movement Ike can side special into Min Min. and Peach+Daisy? PEACH+DAISY?!? THE CHARACTERS INFAMOUS FOR THEIR SPAMMABLE ITEM PROJECTILES?! NOT ABLE TO GET IN ON MIN MIN? WHAT?
11:17 And Min Min can die from that 0% interaction, and otherwise take a similar amount of damage to you. Sort of like, you know, a Glass Cannon. And yet there are plenty of people who praise characters like Captain Falcon who can do tens of % off of a near-true combo and is not nearly as vulnerable up-close.
12:39. Because it's boring😒. At least for me it is. I play Samus and Duck Hunt, but I still like to box a lot of the time and use projectiles mainly as a supplement or a finisher
Literally me. I play Min Min because I play ARMS, and the most fun interactions I've had are when I just say "fuck it" and deliberately avoid using any standard punches for the next 40 seconds
10:00 mario isn't a good example mario can combo a fire ball into imagination lol.
Ever since smash 4 it seems sakurai got way to confortable giving characters projectiles
Projectile abuse has always been around. Melee Fox and Brawl Meta Knight simply aren't around to rampage and shut out range attack flowchart.
@@MasterKnightDH yea but look at every character since 4 and more than 50% have atleast One projectile
@@pedrogoncalves4585 Actually, why don't I provide a list of characters in pre-Smash 4 who had projectiles:
Smash 64 (12 characters):
-Mario
-Luigi
-Yoshi
-Link
-Samus
-Kirby (somewhat tangential but Final Cutter has had moments of being spammable)
-Fox
-Pikachu
-Ness
Melee (14 new characters):
-Peach
-Bowser (tangential)
-Zelda
-Sheik
-Ice Climbers
-Game & Watch
-Mewtwo
-Falco
-Pichu
-Dr. Mario
-Young Link
Brawl (18 new characters counting Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon separately as I'll do here):
-Pit
-Diddy Kong
-Zero Skill Samus
-Wario (tangential but Bike does still exist)
-King Dedede
-Squirtle (granted, Water Gun doesn't cause flinching but it still causes pushback)
-Ivysaur
-Charizard (tangential)
-Lucario
-Olimar
-Robotic Operating Buddy
-Snake (SNAAAAKE!)
-Lucas
-Wolf
-Toon Link
Even if we ignore Squirtle and the tangential cases, that's still at least 66.67% with ANY of the pre-Smash 4 titles. I can tell you how the issue lies in a SERIOUS overreliance on mobility advantage to break through projectiles or otherwise disrupt them, something that the later games ended up making even clearer. In Kid Icarus Uprising where EVERYBODY gets a projectile even if we ignore Attack Powers like Mega Laser and Meteor Shower, you have:
-Powers like Reflect Barrier and Black Hole disrupting long range combat
-Powers like Super Armor and Counter to call out careless attacking with momentum advantage and consequently provide stress relief just by existing
-Shortcomings for weapon types like Flintlock Staff even in long range to make identification significantly more worthwhile
-The Parry Chargeup mechanic granting chargeup for a successful Parry Dodge
There's probably more that I'm missing, but these are what come to mind, and honestly, I'm wishing Smash 4 and beyond took notes.
@@MasterKnightDH Parry should reflect projectiles imo. You make a fair point
Nice
what about any setplay character in smash?
Olimar just wants to make sure you're getting your daily amount of fiber. He's a good guy, I promise!
My favorite zoners are the ones who don't use the B button.
There should be an item named Bowyer who would be likely to shoot the B Button. Done.
I usually play zoners in fighting games because that's usually just what works for me. I've played all kinds of characters, but my general problem is that my brain shuts off every time I go in. So I need a character that just tells me to relax, think and take my time.
I am pretty disappointed with most of the zoners of Smash Bros, mainly because very few of them comes from games that I really like. Robin would have been perfect if it wasn't for his mechanic. I like Zelda and Rosalina tho, so I guess they're my babes.
I really want to learn how to play Min Min.
Good news! ARMS' pressure and attack muscle-memory transfers over almost 1-to-1 with Smash! If you get good with Min Min (or anyone except Helix or Coyle) in that game, the knowledge usually carries over.
zoners are very annoying and anti-fun but straight OP broken characters (and Sonic) are always the top most annoying, give me a duck hunt over Kazuha or Steve or Sonic any day
Kazuya aint that bad to fight if you mix up your di and zone him out. Usually characters have ways to not interact with him and if you hate that thats how ultimate is played and meant to be played sadly. You get no reward for interacting much anyways.
@@dave9515 You can say that about literally anyone, no one is bad to fight if you do everything perfectly but vs an overtuned character it's always an uphill battle regardless of what you do
I'll take any zoner over him
Kazuya is mad overrated. He has the worst disadvantage in the game and you can edgeguard his recovery. My advice works but i also play characters like shulk, cloud, sora so i do admit i have bias and i definitely hate zoners more aside from pacman cause for some reason i think pacman is really cool. There really is no uphill battle against kazuya and as time goes on he gets weaker and no where did i even say one has to play perfectly to beat kazuya i just said don't approach or botehr approaching and just zone him out as this is just ultimate's gameplay loop. Zoning others out and using time to pressure people to approach is the only way to play ultimate. @@----x-----
And if you get hit just mix up your di as that makes it far harder for kazuya mains to always follow up from ewgf as well.@@----x-----
I play dk, and kaz is so overrated. That man is one of the easiest chars to juggle in the game, and his recovery is dogshit. Most ppl who complain about kaz don’t know that you can di ewgf
I think of duck hunt as more trapper then zoner
Ignoring outliers like MinMin or Pac-man because most top tiers are that good by ignoring archetypal weakness, Pac-Man having some fast as fuck buttons, and MinMin having half-stage disjoints that negates both counters and reflectors as means of counter play. This holds true for most top tiers, not just zoners. Roy is a rushdown with a sword, Pika has T-jolt which out zones any non-projectile zoner (sword characters), and Shulk has Manado, Et cetera, Et cetera.
To that end while it is frustrating that they have an implicit advantage in neutral, because the high commitment and poor frame data of moves not named Jab on most zoners kits you have an implicit advantage in neutral once you get into roll distance or slightly further, unless you play heavyweights but zoners are supposed to hard win that matchup by passive attributes of the archetype so the heavyweight loses unless they were designed as the anti-zoner heavy. While it is a chore to get into that neutral range where you have the advantage via framedata or disjoints you have to flip the coin and see how much of a hassle it is to keep you out as well, unless you play MinMin that shit is free. 4:26 here is the fun part that people ignore, projectiles are for the most part thrown at a reactable range due to the high startup of the moves as where most normals in the game be it grounded or aerial are unreactable, so to avoid it or beat it you need to anticipate it, You can always just react to the zoners options, depending on scenario you might not have an option to avoid that is not punishable but that is the case of a character successfully completing their gameplan, and as such should be rewarded.
Also, 2:20 most (projectile) zoners have a projectile that does that. Gunner/Samus have bomb, Duck Hunt has can, Villager/Isabelle have Lloid, Belmont has Cross/Holy fire, Links have bomb/boomerang, Robin has thunder and fire, hell if you want to be weird you can say MinMin throwing second arm counts.
Two things if it is not clear, fuck MinMin best anti-zoner because arms just eat most projectiles and Up-smash is good as hell even after nerf, don't ban her though. Also I have a mii gunner secondary and I play zoners in other fighting games, mainly normal based zoners.
Before video starts: because if they play right, you don't.
ahh vars vid just dropped yays
I love zoning ❤❤❤
It's in the name 😂
Zones are frustrating to fight because they spam the B button
Real
Can confirm from someone who plays a zoner
Bowyer would have an easy time. All he'd have to do is shoot the B Button and watch them melt down.
I know a common issue that MockRock had mentioned about zoners is the out of shield options they can have, which to an extent is sometimes unfair but then there's no fair way for the zoner player to relieve themselves of close quarters pressure, and it doesn't even have to be a great out of shield option. Belmonts' Uppercut, Samus's Screw Attack, Olimar's Up Smash, Min Min's Up Smash, Villager's Neutral Air and Up Smash -- you name it. Everyone's gonna try to be spacing on your shield or crossing up against shielding zoners, and most of them don't really have the range to contest spaced moves on shield or struggle to deal with getting crossed up. The thing is, even when you are hit by these zoners, you are usually sent above the zoners, so you're not really far in distance, but rather height and most zoners would prefer you away from them in horizontal distance to maintain that neutral, aka a second advantage state. These options can eventually kill you but depending on the zoner, they can kill later (unless it's Olimar's Up Smash being Purple) or have had their power nerfed. Not to defend Min Min (as much as I love her), they call this move not okay to have on a zoner but really, it's moreso easier to play around, since it's a reflector tied to her only good out of shield option outside the slower ram ram nair, and thus most fighters with a projectile can bait this out and punish, and thus, you don't see most Min Min players use this move for the reflector aspect as it's too committal to do so, unless the projectiles are being fired so obviously. Realistically the killpower of these out of shield options on zoners should be nerfed if they are gonna be that fast.
While zoners may get a lot hate, especially Min Min, but an underappreciated value of zoners like her and Samus for example, is that they can keep away from the characters that can kill you in one interaction, or grab, namely Touch of Death characters and it's not just zoners people hate, it's the ToD characters too that people loathe dealing with. Kazuya, Steve, Luigi, Peach -- they get flak for the one interaction = your stock taken equation that happens all the time. And it would be great to have that early advantage that zoners get.
Zoners aren't supposed to have a way of relieving themselves of close quarters pressure
That is the whole point of the archetype, they keep you away, and when they fail to do that, you get to dish back at them, except in smash, zoners also have ridiculous close quarters tools for no reason
if u cant prevent people to get to you as a zoner u are just trash
@@xolotltolox7626 Let's be fair: Smash Creator wanted to avoid one-trick ponies when giving out close range combat. Only problem is that there's blatant mishandling by failing to make sure the Counter Play is sufficiently working.
If you don't believe me that he has gone with that design philosophy before, well, did you know that Flintlock Staff in Kid Icarus Uprising has inflated knockback infliction on its Melee Dash Attack and Melee Combo 3 hits? That's not common knowledge because Armor Powers exist for multiplayer, but it's noticeable when fighting Kid Metroids with Flintlock Staff in singleplayer.
What is overtuned is how powerful the long range options are without acceptable drawback to add options to the guy on the receiving end, seeing as that has been a problem in previous Smash titles too, but it sounds like Ultimate doesn't even have somebody like Meta Knight rampaging in the first place to pull some Cavalry beats Artillery RPS shenanigans against it, which I can surmise is why the problem hadn't been noticed before. Contrast to Kid Icarus Uprising where I can tell you how I use Armor Powers to punch through the spam, Black Hole to root the other guy in place, Super Speed and Jump Glide for burst mobility, things like that, and if you think you can just break me with something like Reflect Barrier, I have more than enough ways to outmaneuver that to strong effect too. And keep in mind that this is me maining a weapon type that makes Incineroar look like a marathon runner. There's still some messy balancing, but at least KIU gets good ideas on how to better balance long range.
Imagine if steve was a zoner too, i can see why hes not LMFAO 😂
I’m curious. Would Ness and Lucas be considered Zoners?
Ness and Lucas are not typically considered zoners. Zoners are characters who excel at controlling space and keeping opponents at a distance using projectiles or long-range attacks. Ness and Lucas both have projectile attacks (PK Fire, PK Freeze, PK Thunder etc…) but their playstyles are more versatile and can involve a mix of close-quarters combat and aerial maneuvers. They are often categorized as “all-around” characters rather than dedicated zoners.
@@TreebeardXIV thanks for that! That makes so much sense. I’m a Lucas main so I’ve always had difficulty describing what type of fighter he is.
I main Samus but play her very aggressively. It's not as good as that running away, charging etc shit, but playing like this simply makes no fun at all for me... when playing against other Samus' and they play like this shitty running away it's just so boring. Robin is even worse. Or how many play Villager/Isabelle is just disgusting. Or Young Link/Link...
It's like in some shooters: having a guy with fast rifles, but just laying around in a room: no fun playing like this
Developera can't help but add fast zooners eventually. You'd think long range would be slow but this is not the case. Mac with his crap range isn't even that fast. Dr.Mario for his short range is so slow.
That's more reason why evasion busting tools are important. And it's not impossible to make well-designed ones either. Of course, even with those, take one look at Gemini Orbitars in Kid Icarus Uprising and tell me what is fair about high homing charged shots that are undodgeable at 50 meters or less in a game that is meant to be designed to involve melee opportunity with running speed standardized to 9.6 meters per second. Quite simply, long range should NEVER be unreasonable to outmaneuver regardless.
@@MasterKnightDH The solution is quite simple, weaker projectiles. Never before has the top characters in smash been zoners like it is in this game. They took Bayo with her busted Smash 4 set, Meta with his busted Smash 3 set and gutted their knock back. In a fake attempt at balance because this game is terribly designed gave everyone similar damage outputs forcing zoning characters to the top. How do we know this? When they buff weaker characters like Bowser Jr, Dr.Mario and DonkeyKong they just increase damage output and call it a day. Terribly designed game.
@@babyvaso3855 You actually can have some strong projectiles here and there in terms of raw power. The counter play just has to be reliably valid to end any abuses they could pull.
That said, the baseline power for longer range attacks should be low enough to allow for breaking flowchart without some absurd passive mobility advantage. There's a reason Japan detests Min-Min.
I love Playing MEGA MAN the less you interact with your opponent, the less damage you will take 😉
The main trouble is that Smash doesn't have the base mechanics and balancing factors that fighting games do have to keep zoners in check. A zoner in a fighting game like Dhalsim in Street Fighter has to deal with long projectile animations that you can get counterhit out of for extra damage, hurtboxes on his large attacks, and really bad options up close because of a lack of fast or invincible moves.
Now let's take a look at the Belmonts. They do not have to worry about counterhits, have pretty short projectile animations, no hurtboxes on their whip to worry about, and actually good options up close like a frame 6 out of shield option with a bit of intangibility.
Zoners in fighting games are annoying. Zoners in Smash barely even have counterplay.
At least in previous games there was a universal reflector. They should bring that back.
The Belmont's are balanced by a thin hitbox, predictable endlag timings for 4 of their whip moves, and an exploitable recovery after 40% or 2 combos. They also have to win the war of attrition by consistently timing or give up stage when they're wrong. They also can't jump well with no ability to change direction making their anti air game almost entirely air to airs you can just watch and punish. Belmonts are kinda bad unless you can't bait and punish f tilt/bair.
Zoners have counterplay due to the fact that in platform fighters characters are much more mobile than in traditional fighters. You just have to mix up how you approach and force the zoner to guess wrong (for example shield dash can beat Samus trying to anti air you with forward air.)
If I can beat zoners with Ridley consistently in bracket, you definitely can with your character too.
Saying zoners, ESPECIALLY belmonts have no counterplay is the hardest cope I’ve ever seen. If you think Belmonts don’t lose up close because they have ONE good close quarters tool, then I have no idea what to even say other than open your goddamn eyes. Their overall framedata is garbage, their hitboxes are skinny, their mobility is terrible, and their disadvantage is really REALLY bad. Smash has much higher mobility and freedom compared to traditional fighting games, and THAT is how you beat out projectiles. You jump over a projectile and you’re not committed to that arc. You can reel back, double jump, throw out aerials, air dodge. You have so many options to deal with projectiles by Smash’s focus on mobility alone, that closing gaps with zoners is more than manageable; comparing them to tfgs in this instance isn’t really valid. And because of that, if you give zoners literally nothing to work with up close, you just end up with a terrible character. Belmonts have the BARE minimum of a good up b out of shield, and a good down tilt to escape tight situations and that’s it. And because of that, they’re considered C- on the official tier list. You don’t make zoners in Smash by just making them literally helpless up close. You make them bad up close, but capable of sending their opponents away again when the right circumstances arise.
Also saying Belmonts have short projectile animations blows my mind. Axe is frame 30, cross is frame 19, holy water is frame 18. They have 66 total frames, 44 total frames, and 45 total frames respectively. In a game like Smash, that’s a lot of time considering a ton of aerials come out with single digit startup, there are one THREE characters in this game to not have any single digit startups. You see people jump over Belmont’s cross and counterattack ALL the time.
Oh oops, I guess that's just me not knowing much about the Belmonts.
🥶
As someone who likes playing characters with decent zoning tools in any fighting game, getting people tilted as part of the fun
The most annoying people to face are the people with more patience than me
Idk why, but a part of me always starts to feel guilty when I sense the other player getting tilted and start to play different. Which is dumb af but I can’t stop LMAO
@@JKBeta1021 If playing for fun then yeah I won't go as hard
In a serious match? I'm making them full tilt
this is why no one invites you to parties@@AngeVNs
@@ohmygoddiosmio9138 at parties I play much more casually. I'll play any character