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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2023
- Videos like this made possible by my Patreon: / swolesomemrfox
This one is for everyone who has complained to me about leftists "failing men."
Like... nah, dude. Plenty of guys have gotten onboard for numerous reasons. Stop framing this as needing to teach people the appeal of caring about other human beings, start looking at why they don't.
There's gonna be an unofficial part 2 to this.
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We all need to remember, our minds are machines that are optimized for survival and simplicity, not happiness and truth. If you want it to move towards the latter, it requires work in emotionally and intellectually uncomfortable places.
I kind of disagree with you on that. I do believe our minds are machines that are trying to optimize survival, but I would argue that it does that by creating happiness when we do it right. And while we optimize survival by simplifying the world around us, I think as a species compare too others form of life, we have a more complex view of the world around us. But I do agree that happiness and truth in our society require work in a lot of ways. I just tend to think it comes more from today's society than humans nature itself.
Survival is a prerequisite to happiness, and truth. You can't be happy, or knowledgeable about what is true or not, if you're fuckin' dead.
What I'm getting at is you need to try to actually solve the material reasons why men act this way before you can realistically get them to change.
“Do not confuse my compassion with passivity, do not confuse my patience with not getting it” is SUCH an excellent line. A+ stuff here dude.
I think the modeling of rage that you put forward here is incredible, relatable and understandable for many masculine folks who need a model form of productive anger - without the protective irony that's so often used to dull that wrath. Thanks Finn ❤
What Stoicism advocates need to understand is that our emotions are there for a reason. They provided us an evolutionary benefit that helped us survive as a social species. The philosophy of Greek/Hellenistic know-nothings can’t erase that. Every decision we make, no matter how logical, is rooted in emotion.
I think even trying to make a distinction between emotion and logic is fruitless. You can use stoicism to contemplate why you feel a certain way, but it's useless if you never take any actions.
Or really basically what Swolesome said way better then I did.
Yep. Look into Damasio’s theory.
The original stoicists very much understood this, and valued emotions for exactly that: a wisdom that contained species-wide knowing.
Philosophy Tube did a fantastic video essay about the stoics and how their views differed from modern interpretations. Highly recommend it!
@@TreeHairedGingerAle Like basically everything people think they know about classical antiquity, the general guy Doesn't Get It and thinks that first, contemporary context-less pass is all it is.
There's a word for the thing they're not doing, but I accidentally forgot that one to make room for more Elder Scrolls theology, so you get the huge mouthful version: the "modern stoicists" aren't doing the thing, where you use what you learn in the first pass and the extra knowledge you get from the history of stoics and their biases, and dismantle the subject for your second pass, and you learn a bit more and dismantle it with the new things you learn, on and on and on until you've gotten as deep in that subject as you think it can go. And then you re-analyze it again when something gives you a new lens to hold it under to scrape more knowledge from it.
But that's WORK and some weirdoes don't enjoy the delights of finding new insights from recontextualizing and re-examining something.
Which is honestly a shame because philosophy is where that whole "analyze, change angle, analyze, magnify, analyze, switch lens color, analyze" process shines really well, and learning contemporary context is so EASY for classical antiquity, they left stuff EVERYWHERE and where they didn't, there's dedicated historian nerds chomping at the bit to infodump the context all over you at the slightest provocation!
basically TL;DR of my reply: WORD and also I don't get people who go into philosophy and then won't think hard???
As a genderfluid person who has had a lot of shitty men in my life, I really appreciate this channel. You and men like you help me embrace my masc side rather than hate it. Thank you.
Dominance less about controlling others & more about one's own resistance from being controlled...That's an interesting way to look at it...Gotta think about that for a sec.
It's amazing to see the men who promote such a rigid constricting definition of masculinity try to appeal to the men who are suffocating trying to fit into that mold and that's seen as more accommodating to men than your honest and genuine approach.
Thank you so much, James. 💙
how is it rigid and constricting?
@@bblow6003 if you don't see a problem with someone else trying to tell you how to be yourself then I guess it isn't.
@@curtissjamesd no ones telling anyone they have to act a certain way 😂
what you have is called autism, most people dont have that
@@curtissjamesdlol you got smoked
I love this video and your pragmatic approach to things. I so appreciate your realness ❤
I’m sad to hear the bullshit has been weighing on you. It is deeply frustrating for sure. As someone who is unbelievably sensitive to negative or hostile things people say online (and these are just responses to my comments, not a video that shows my face that I’ve poured hours and my heart and soul into), I’ve started trying to pretend I didn’t read certain responses. It’s hard when it seems like they MIGHT be open to trying to understand, but I’ve found that if I don’t disconnect from the discourse sometimes, it will keep me from sharing my voice even when my voice might be what someone else needs to hear.
Just know that I think your voice is incredibly important, and is such a grounded model for men to see how to be a man in a reflective and thoughtful way. I’m a psychologist at a university counseling center, and when I heard one of my colleagues was planning to run a Men and Masculinity group, I sent him the link to your page and to F.D Signifier. Among a ton of amazing content creators, I think the two of you are the voices men really need to be cued into and connecting with.
Hope you’ve been able to find spaces of peace, love, and connection ❤️
Thank you so much for this comment, and for doing that. 💙
It is definitely taxing, but hearing from people like you and hearing directly from guys who have been helped make it worth it.
I share your anger and rage brother. As a dude, it's astounding to me that people just, as a default, perceive men these scary, threatening, always potential predators who just get angry, commit violence, and take what they want, so they're always on guard around men and treat us like potential threats by default, and other boys and men have just decided that's okay? We're all okay with that? That doesn't piss us off collectively into wanting to change and challenge that perspective?
This! I live in Berlin and there are so many initiatives to get more girls interested in careers dominated by men, and it's infuriating that it doesn't cross anyone's mind to get more boys into careers dominated by women, probably because those are valued less (obviously, since they get paid less).
To be fair there used* to be a massive benefit to it lol
@@bookardtdb I swear I'm not trying to be bad faith here, as I kind of know how you mean, but I don't think I could articulate the exact point your getting at: How do you figure?
@@bookardtdb ...What? Did you accidentally respond to the wrong thread? I don't know what that means, let along how it connects to what I or you said.
@rileylovebucket6080 That sounds like a great idea! I've seen people suggesting woman take on men's job, but men taking on women's job I don't see suggested much. Also, who gendered jobs.
Fist Bump for the Angry Crew! You are ... softer in your anger than I.
If you're not angry, are you paying attention even?
DAMN Brother Finn! I'm glad you rallied your Cpt.Canada 'I can do this all day' energy. Bloodied but still going, and wiser after receiving some cheap shots! I am so glad to have you in my Real Mano- sphere of reference.
New video new video!
(Warning basically an essay content) Great video and insightful as always. When I bring up the left failing men. I don’t think of you. Honestly you are one of the people who’s part of the solution. Granted I’m a person who wanted to be reached (lots of backfire effect)and your voice really works for me.
You always come from a personal point and treat problems that affect everyone. And you make it feel like a therapy session where I can deconstruct why certain thoughts exist. And it feels like you personally saying “no man that’s not why you’re angry. This is.” And not a “this is why you suck” speech.
(Note: that last part might just be because of my self hating brain) it’s also part of the reason I like contrapoints incel video. She breaks down the system that makes them, talks about personal experiences and kinda offers a solution. Also you connect it to the fact that it’s because of the system. That’s also why I like Jessie genders the boys essays.
Hell that’s also why I love Kens story in the Barbie movie. It’s the incel to patriarchy to healing story. In a Ryan gosling package.
But again it depends on if the person wants to be reached. There are lots of people who say it but don’t mean it.
I *like* seeing you pissed off, Finn. Not because it makes me feel good that you're angry, but because I'm watching a guy channel the frustration into work that attempts to achieve good in the world. You're right about those who do good having to be so much smarter than the ignorant haters. Keep being smart and good.
Awesome vid! As I grow older, the one thing I've always wished for from some of my guy friends is vulnerability.
I've known some of these dudes for more than 20 years, and some of them say the words "you're my best friend, we're like family", and so on. But the actions have never reflected that. The conversation only goes skin deep, and the moment it gets real, they run.
But those men who I'm still close friends with, are the ones I've seen cry, the ones who've reflected on their actions with me, and I've done the same with them.
I don't even think it should be called a feminine trait anymore because its not, I think vulnerability is an essential trait!
Very deeply agree. We are a social species!
Much of the evidence provided by fossil records reveal that our ape ancestors very quickly became truly Human, once they started protecting each other from rule via tyranny/dictators among them -- instead, choosing to build lives lived via connection and community-wide collaboration.
Vulnerability helps us understand each other, and shows us ways to help each other that only strengthens communities as a whole ✨
I want to tell myself those kids are trolling him, but i know better. FD's video on this is amazing.
I really appreciate the level of violence you chose for this one. Cuz it's not often you come in with the intentions of hurting feelings, but I'm sure glad you did. 🙌🏾🙌🏾🙌🏾
Doing things the right way is exhausting.
This is really important content. This video is important.
Thanks for what you do, what you say, and what you show. It's inspiring
Thank you so much for all the work you do. It's really helped me personally in my reflections as an non-binary person and it constantly informs my work as an educator. Thank you 🙏
Awesome video Finn! Thanks again ❤
I think there’s a lot that could be taught on how to go from cave licker to someone who can appreciate this approach. There’s a barrier for entry for a lot of us (for me, it’s been a decade in therapy) and I think a lot of cave lickers cannot handle the vulnerability it requires.
However, that doesn’t mean we’re failing them. Kyle Kulinski on the PBD podcast is a solid example of someone who’s aggressive but also thoughtful. Same with a lot of Sam Seder debates. I think people like them can pull dudes with vulnerability issues to the left without making them feel too soft (if that’s too much of an issue for them to confront).
I think there’s room for everyone on the left whether they’re aggressive or soft and philosophical, and in no way does children not finding out about Kyle or Sam before finding Sneako and Tate mean the left is failing men. I appreciate the hell out of your work ❤
Damn swolesome you knocked it out of the park here, I couldn't think of the words to articulate it but felt similarly. I find it saddening a little when I see some of the online left try to indulge and appeal to these people openly conceding to bigotry sometimes just to hand hold them. I get strategically its a good idea for some people who need to be hand held to see others views but I'm very tired of putting up with blatant bigotry and misogyny.
What is your definition of bigotry and misogony?
@@aaronrubalcava7810 Oh look, a debate bro here to try and say bigotry and misogyny aren't real.
@@Jane-oz7pp The world isn't CNN you know. It is real but it doesn't happen as much as you think. How is there so much much misogony and bigotry in the US when so many women are allowed to live freely and so can minorities. I will wait.
@@Jane-oz7pp Nothing? Lol Can't name any facts that support your "theories?"
This is speculation but whenever I've seen this discourse I've always thought about the disparity in incentives. The grifters promise if you just buy into these awful roles society has already been training you for, you will eventually earn everything you want.
The left promises that if you do a ton of work on yourself, learn a lot, and continually improve the way you engage with the world, you can eventually...become part of the ongoing uphill struggle against the corrupt system we're all in. If we disregard for a second that only the latter happens to be true while the former is a total lie, it makes sense why so many still buy into the lie anyway. The word where you get to be the boot is, for many, a more beautiful world to believe in than the one where we toil slowly to one day remove all boots maybe sortof its complicated.
In other words, men and boys sometimes choose the easier option, the one that comes with rewards for little effort. Continue playing into the system, using toxic masculinity with no questioning - because questioning is harder and uncomfortable (ironically making it more masculine in their world view but-).
The grifters weaponize toxic masculinity and its rewards, and people blame the left - but what do they want "the left" to do?
Leftists should be compassionate to male issues - but we don't tolerate hatred in being compassionate. Some of these guys will only react positively to you if you "speak their language" which doesn't seem like a path worth going.
Better to inoculate younger boys from seeking this content out - and I don't have the answers to how you'd solve that, but I think education on internet grifters is a serious subject that honestly should be in schools.
These guys can only reach kids through the internet and much like porn - the best option is to educate kids before they view content that may be damaging.
but its not a lie were not being honest about what these men want - we as the left shrug off there desires because we deem them wrong and it pushes them to the right. We dont respect men as they are we in are advocacy for a better world that we think simply doesn't have room for them and we have to be honest about that.
It makes sense for them to go to the right, there not even in our picture of the future.
You demand me to respect men or women being women or men and identify in 100 ways and dont kink shame but its bad for him being who he already is and pursuing his desires because of patriarchy or misogyny.
This doesn't come off educational but rather you can be anything else in the world but who you are. They want those rewards and there is no winning in your "better world" not to mention they have no advantage in it.
For example this video says " I will not handhold your misogyny" in order to reach you but will literally coddle and make this a safe space for every other creed, concept, or belief. Its obvious why that would be alienating.
Look I am not saying the left needs to change but be honest about whats going on. You either care about them or you dont and this simply comes off as the right uses them so we might as well use them for our agenda and not about if your actually doing anything or not.
@@jaccl4539 you think misogyny not being tolerated is the same as making safe spaces?
Misogyny is hatred - if men are doing it, they need to stop. you can't ask people to care while you have fun hating their entire group.
The left never teaches anything about working on yourself and hard work lol are you on crack?
not my argument or disagreement my point is being accountable to the violence and consequence of removing them from society.
Your making an argument for a prison. I am saying lets be honest about who were putting in and the consequence of its creation.
were not accepting all people or men - were saying you can be any type of man but this one and these have no room here.
Again I dont disagree but that has consequences. The idea we care about these lost men simply because its tactical against the right is hypocritical.
were not speaking to them and its time to be honest and accountable to that we can't have it both ways.
@@Mia_2512
Very well done! Thank you for all your work, it’s appreciated.
this is legitimately the best video on this topic ive seen
Introspection is hard, but valuable to learn.
And people will still say celebrities don't have any responsibility for how their fans act.
I just want to say that I truly empathise with how your feeling. Thank you for all your work!
Amazing video, thank you for making it, and for sharing your thoughts and perspective
You're awesome Finn, some may even say finntastic.
Another wonderful, heartfelt video. Thank you so much.
I accidently got too deep into the comments here; sorry you have to deal with all the craziness being online entails. Take care of yourself
I have never heard this phrased better! I know the algorithm can be horrible to creators who don't cater to the extremes and name-calling of left or right, but please don't change a thing about your style unless your inner self says you should. Keep being true to yourself... we're watching and cheering you on!!!
This is so kind, thank you so much!
Great video. I appreciate the direction you took this. As always, I like getting your perspective.
Really good stuff as always!
I wish I could share this video with all the teenagers in my wider community!
Thank you so much for all you do, take care 💜
Love finding fellow MickNuggs on other creator's videos, lol... hopefully see you next Friday friend!
@@coda3223 omg hi! Definitely see you then 😘
Hello mah Swole-brotha! (I'm gonna keep iterating variations on "Swole terms of endearment" until I find one that *pops* Swole-brotha is the current pack leader).
How have I only just found you today? I'm so upset. I absolutely love this.
Doesn't sound so good when it's being parroted back to him by kids in his audience... I doubt he'll actually learn anything from this, but we can always hope.
Not "Swolemates"
🤣😭
Most based take on modern masculinity I’ve ever seen. Bravo.
Fantastic video as always!
Please keep up your good work. We all need more men like you.
I'm sorry, my dumb thumb initially hit down vote, then I corrected my mistake. You are such an eloquent person. It takes a lot of mental and emotional fortitude to use your anger for good. Thank you.
[insert Hulk gif]
Great content!
❤ love the videos wanted to tell you that I subscribed and liked your comment on our flag means death. What also like if you did a video on the second season where Jim's character actually is more fleshed out. Also wanted to say you make good points and thank you.
great vid thanks for being a legend
i made a video coming to the same points as this, yesterday! but was too nervous to share for all these reasons i gave myself- i wonder if posting content w the same level of effort as people using their space to hate like sneako- but using opposite points like the ones in in your video would be okay, i struggle to navigate that
Your videos are incredible.
I really appreciate that, thank you so much 💙
Thank you very much for this video!
I'd argue Sneako does believe what he says to some extent because he changes his mind all the time, he's just bad at following what his beliefs supposedly are. Though it doesn't make much difference for the audience whether he actually believes it or not.
Dog bless you ❤
This is excellent
New to your channel, that video was masterful. Just subscribed. Question: do you have a Sociology degree or are you into psych? Google-scholar, lol? Seriously though, how did you get knowledgeable about these topics? What would you recommend researching?
Thank you so much! And honestly, a lot of it comes from listening to other people I’ve connected with. I’m also a big fan of Black feminist literature (though I’m still in the process of reading more; I really love bell hooks, Angela Davis, and The Combahee River Collective), and have recently been really enjoying Jackson Katz, Gabor Maté, and the Modern Manhood podcast by German Villegas. Highly recommend all of these writers/speakers.
My background is in neuropsych, but I’m hoping to return to school to finish my degree in social work. 🙂
@@FinntasticMrFox thank you -- I'll open up some new tabs to look into these creators and authors. Good day!
Love ya!
Great video, thank you. Easily agreed with everything you said here, though I do think there is a valid, more nuanced critique underlying the hyperbolic statement of "the left is failing men."
I'd love to write a fuller representation of my thoughts than a TH-cam comment can accommodate; where should I send it?
To address your question of "which left", I guess you could call it pop leftism, i.e. folks who nominally support their understanding of some leftist positions (particularly around culture and identity) but who aren't too versed in leftist theory. This is fine, because not everyone is a scholar, nor do I want a world that considers scholarship as a precondition of expression.
That said, and as you pointed out, the algorithm selects for contempt, regardless of one's philosophy or stance. I think it has, in part, contributed to a paradigm where the path to a sense of ethical identity involves rallying around a shared sense of contempt (even one grounded in moral values I share) and strawmanning anyone with less than tacit agreement into some deplorable basket. I don't think this is exclusively a problem of the left, but I do think that hypocrisy is a starker contrast to deeper leftist critiques of society, even approaching the hypocrisy of shitty conservatives calling themselves followers of Christ.
I don't think you fall into that bucket at all, though. I love your perspective and I'm grateful that you take the time to put it on TH-cam, even though the algorithm will keep shitting on you for it.
Just to provide one specific example, I have brought up workplace injury and the idea of men's bodies being disposable in conversation with people ostensibly on the left and been dismissed as a Red Pill type, despite having no connection to Red Pill nor having said anything misogynistic or even regarding women. I would think leftists could understand the class critique inherent in the argument, but the tendency seems to be to search for "what I really mean" and thus my underlying bigotry.
@@joshnewton6852 This is helpful, and I really appreciate the insight here. It's nice to actually get replies and explanations when I post these questions, 'cause I wouldn't ask them if I didn't sincerely want to know.
I do absolutely agree that there is a problem with certain leftists in the ways they talk to and about men. Khadija Mbowe has a fantastic video on exactly that, and when I've talked about it in the past, I've definitely had many self-proclaimed leftists respond in really awful ways that are just hateful toward men. I'd really like to talk about this in the followup video I have planned for this one.
I'd also love to hear more, so please feel free to message me on IG if you'd like to elaborate: @finntasticmr.fox
Great video @FinntasticMrFox.
I want to talk to you about something. I'm currently going through a crisis with my masculinity, I believe your unique perspective might help.
Is there any way to reach out? Via online chat perhaps?
Thank You.
Absolutely, please do. I can be reached by email but the best way to contact me is Instagram messenger: finntasticmr.fox
Glad you haven't tossed in the towel!
I love your videos. You always make good points that make me think. But I'm not the audience that you're trying to reach.
I think you make such an important point that people like Sneako and Andrew Tate are not _making_ boys and men misogynistic. Boys and men start out that way, then look for the content that confirms what they already believe.
To be fair, everyone starts out that way, not just men and boys. I don't want to give the impression there's something inherently different about male people. But non-male people - as well as non-white and disabled people - are more likely to find themselves in situations where they are treated unfairly, so they ask the questions, "Why is this happening? Does it have to be this way? Could we make things more fair?" If you're white and/or male, the way things are - or, more accurately, the way our society _should_ work if everyone accepted the status quo - seems fair already, so the problem seems to be the people who are not cooperating by asking or demanding that things change.
Anyway, when people say "the left doesn't reach boys and men," they seem to be coming from a perspective that people are not misogynistic and racist by default. In their minds, people start out neutral, then they are "radicalized" by external forces to become misogynistic, racist, and fascist. They believe that the left needs to develop a competing force that works on neutral people the same way the right does. What they're not seeing is, "neutral" is actually "right." The right is not pulling neutral people towards fascism. Fascist thinking - dominance, competition, hierarchy, violence, conformity - is our default. They're just telling people that nothing has to change. The left _can't_ do that because something _does_ have to change if we want things to be fair.
When people say, "You don't get it," I think they're coming from a place where they believe that any rational, intelligent person who follows their logic would agree with them. So if you disagree, you must be so irrational and unintelligent that you've failed to grasp what they're saying. It never occurs to them that they're starting from false premises. It's easier to believe that you can't understand than to examine the foundations of their belief system critically. You have to be a pretty strong person to face the possibility that your actions have been based on lies and you may have hurt someone because of it.
I had a fourteen-year-old scream this at me once. I didn't take it personally, but it was still a memorable event. I think he just couldn't handle having his beliefs challenged and he just wanted me to shut up so his emotional turmoil would stop.
What a load of crap
I really love this comment, but I do have a question. I totally agree and its a great point that the default, just due to societal pressures in upbringing and such, is one of misogyny and racism. But doesn't that mean the left should try even harder to be more welcoming and encouraging to men, since we're fighting an uphill battle against social norms and pressures that affect everyone from a very young age? I feel like the answer has to be put into showing people a better way, and challenging their very ingrained beliefs about how the world should work. We MUST provide enticing counters to the rhetoric the right uses because, like you said, it is really hard for people to do that work and face their own inherent biases head on. I feel too much of the left turns a cold shoulder on people who aren't there yet, who don't understand the things we understand. And we tend to look at people not already in the know as not worth our time or effort. I see it happen all the time, leftists effectively essentializing white men and making them out to be demons. The people most likely to perpetuate harmful social norms, namely cishet white men and boys, are the very people the left is most prone to shunning from our movement, instead of taking their hand and showing them the better path.
I see this vicious cycle that happens a lot, where someone outside the left says something ignorant or wrong because they frankly don't know any better. That's not an excuse, but it's the truth. And then the left ostracizes them and tells them their horrible or whatever that might be, but provides nothing useful to that person in doing so. So the bigot feels attacked and, of course, develops hatred of the left. And I wanna be clear, if someone is being racist or sexist to you, I am NOT saying you have a responsibility to like, teach them. if someone's an asshole, you have no interpersonal obligation to dedicate your time and energy and wellbeing to make them a better person. But unless as a movement we start teaching more and shunning less, we're not gonna draw in as many people as we could. "The world won't become a better place unless someone is nice to someone who doesn't deserve it"- Dr. K from HealthyGamerGG
You have zero self awareness. You saying that all men are sexist and racist by default is literally the textbook example of how the Left fails men, especially white men.
It shouldn't be too difficult to understand why men do not want to engage with an ideology with such a negative preconceived judgement of them.
Intersectionality has nothing for the modern man.
It openly hates him.
I always thought people slowed down near car crashes because it was safer for the police and yourself
Comment for the algorithm
Alright, TH-cam ate my comment the first time around so lets try again 😁
First of all, I really love your content and I find your care and compassion genuinely inspiring. However, I do have a pretty big disagreement with some of the sentiment of this video and I want to offer an alternative perspective.
I think when people say 'The Left' needs to be better with men's issues, I think a lot of people hear that and think that means the left needs to accept toxicity and bad aspects of stereotypical masculinity, when that couldn't be further than the truth. I think the issue the left truly has is that we're okay with a lot of hate, jokes, etc towards men that we would NEVER accept towards other groups of people. This channel is very good about it, but a lot of the internet discussion around feminism isn't. If you scroll on TikTok, Twitter, Tumblr, etc for progressive and feminist content, you'll see a wealth of 'I hate all men' or 'men ain't shit' or similar jokes and trends. And for us as progressives who are in the know, we often understand the intricacies of how these types of discussions are really just a shorthand for toxic, harmful, or dangerous men, right? But people outside of the online left often don't know that, and it can be very off-putting to people who aren't in the know.
Here's a personal anecdote to help explain my perspective; I'm a leftist, feminist, black guy that grew up in predominantly white areas growing up. Growing up a lot of people would comment on how I'm 'not like other black people', or how I 'sound white' when I talk. And as I grew up and became more politically conscious, I found more and more progressive friends and developed my worldview more and such. But something that always got under my skin was that a lot of my friends would be talking about some experience they had that day with a guy that was an asshole, or some video they saw about a toxic man, and they would crack a joke about how 'men are the worst', or how they 'can't stand men' or whatever. But they would often make a point to stop and point out to me 'but I'm not talking about you here though, you're one of the good ones'. After a while I made the connection that hey, I've been told this same thing about my race before. It wasn't okay then, and it's not okay now either.
I don't want to come off like I think all jokes about men are bad, or that hatred towards men comes ANYWHERE NEAR the harm that misogyny towards women has, or discount the systemic issues that women face. Obviously we're talking about very different things here. But I do think that the attitude that vast swaths of feminist and leftist content online has towards men as a broad social group is detrimental, because we don't do a great job at outreach towards them. Your average Joe seeing #feminism posts on twitter talking about how all men are horrible people doesn't get the intricacies of the discussion, they're taking it at face value because they don't know any better, and most of the left has this attitude of "we'll only be accepting of you once you've done all this internal work yourself". It's not helping us spread ideas, it's putting up a barrier to men joining the left. we have to meet them where they're at to teach them a better way.
I have a couple videos that I think substantiate my points, I'll link them here:
This video is ShoeOnHead describing the response to a video she put out about men's issues. The hate is, frankly, absurd: th-cam.com/video/qVKvEaokV6I/w-d-xo.htmlsi=_0nGnHbt713JIBBO
This video is admittedly from a pretty controversial leftist, but I think his take here is pretty solid. th-cam.com/video/Xhb8z1a7vuw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=du-OwUDUcRmkyUPU
(edit: the third video was the wrong link, deleted until i can find the right video. sorry)
TL;DR, The left (especially on social media) is way too cool with jokes and hatred towards men that we would find completely unacceptable towards any other social group, and it's pushing people away from feminism and progressivism before they can learn more about it. The left doesn't really need an Andrew Tate or Sneako type figurehead, but we do need to be more welcoming and less hostile towards men as a broad social category. Men aren't the enemy, Patriarchy is, and while this channel is good about expressing the difference, the majority of public facing discourse is not and pushes apolitical or right leaning men away with its messaging.
I would really love to hear perspectives from people that disagree with me, I've done a lot of looking into this topic but I'm very open to other opinions and I genuinely love getting other perspectives and broadening my understanding 😁
This is a really great comment and I appreciate it a lot. I don’t particularly like the streamers you’ve linked to, but that’s for a number of complicated reasons. What you’ve touched on is really important, and definitely needs to be part of this discussion.
I’ll be doing a follow up video that gets into this topic more directly. This one was intended for people stomping their feet, plugging their ears, and demanding people cater to their hatred before they’ll listen to messages about love. But part of this conversation *absolutely* needs to be about how leftists talk about men in a more casual way, especially when it comes to the hateful indoctrination of little boys; these kids are learning hatred, but they’re *also* seeing the reactions to events they haven’t been present for-they’re missing the context of why these casual jokes about men are a thing in the first place, so all they’re seeing is mockery and contempt for men. Does it justify hatred? Absolutely not, people don’t owe you kindness for you to treat them like human beings, but it’s definitely a lot more complicated than “Ugh MEN, am I right?”
I think what’s frustrating is that so many of us are talking about the nuance there (FD Signifier, Khadija Mbowe, That Dang Dad, and many others) and that’s either ignored or complained about and dismissed as “not getting it” by people who need to understand that they need to communicate and listen in turn if they want to be understood. It’s… well. A mess. But we gotta keep going and keep trying, that’s what I plan to do.
@@FinntasticMrFox I totally understand the dislike for Vaush and Shoe, even though I think Vaush in particular was right on this take and got tons of flak he didn't deserve for it in this instance. I don't follow Shoe much and while politically I often agree with Vaush, I do understand why he's so controversial and by no means do I always agree with him. And yeah, I agree with everything you said here, I'm super excited to see your follow up video on all this. Like I said I really appreciate the nuance you handle these topics with and your videos always leave me with plenty to think about. Thanks for the reply!
Would you say you see the problem with the outreach being mainly about "messaging" then? I note even in your summary, all these men *seem* to be able to expect after they've done the work on themselves and grown past the toxicity they were indoctrinated with is just, like, acceptance into a community frustrated with them. And what are the grifters promising they'll get if they simply continue the toxic ways they've been raised with? Girls, money, respect, even enlightenment sometimes.
Assuming the grifter promise is a lie that your world will be better if you become the boot that steps on others, and the leftist truth is you can ceaselessly toil in community with the hope of someday making a world without boots. Is what you're getting at that the problem is with how the pitch is delivered, or with what the pitch actually is?
@@FinntasticMrFox "all they’re seeing is mockery and contempt for men. Does it justify hatred? Absolutely not, people don’t owe you kindness for you to treat them like human beings, but it’s definitely a lot more complicated than “Ugh MEN, am I right?”
Not saying hatred is right, but how is that reaction at least not a little bit understandable? If boys and men online see stuff from the left that looks like it saying fuck men and showing hatred to them, who would blame them for getting angry and saying "well, fuck you too!".
Granted, you do make a point that someone being shitty to you doesn't mean you have to be shitty back, turning the other cheek is a good virtue and all, but I think everybody fails that on a bad day now and again, even if we're maybe more compassionate, patient, and understanding than most. If a guys perception is the other group came out the gates swinging, I don't think swinging back is not treating people like human beings, it's what a lot of people feel immediately tempted to do when somebody comes and attacks them.
Edit: Thanks in advance for reading this essay, this is why I make videos. 😅
Oh for sure, I brought it up specifically because it’s understandable. I know it’s an annoying answer, and I wish things were more direct, but unfortunately something can be understandable and still wrong.
The problem with swinging back in this case is that so many of them swing back using historical subjugation that got and continues to get so many of us killed. I don’t think it’s appropriate at all to be hateful toward men just because they’re men, that is bigotry, too. Alongside this, it’s also important to recognize that straight white cis men in particular have never had their rights restricted or their lives taken on the grounds of being straight white cis men (they have on other grounds, don’t get me wrong.) The groups they’re lashing out at aren’t responsible for the systems that hurt them, but they still take their anger out on those groups because of the pre-existing framing of “us against them” that was literally born out of the dehumanization of marginalized people.
To try and be more clear, the hate is hate in either direction, but hate from marginalized people is coming from having been hurt by things like white supremacy, homophobia, and misogyny. Hate from white cishet men is *using* white supremacy, homophobia, and misogyny a lot of the time. One is a reaction to historical hatred, the other is a perpetuation of it. In the worst examples on both sides, that is. I recognize that countless men who fit that description don’t fall back on that prejudice and just get caught in the crosshairs, but then the issue becomes this: how do marginalized people tell the difference between one of these guys who’s just hurting, and one who thinks they’re subhuman and deserve to die, and is it worth it for them to take the chance?
Even just making videos like this one, I’ve had many of the aforementioned men show up to say horrible things about me, my identity, my personhood, my motives-I choose to put up with it for the few I can actually reach, but they are not lashing out because they’re hurting, they’re lashing out to try and hurt me, specifically. They will in the same breath demand their pain be recognized and then laugh at us for talking about historical events and current trends of violent discrimination that hurt us. It’s like covering your eyes and screaming “LOOK AT ME!”
Nah for the nah god! Dude for the dude throne!
how tall are you? I’m really curious
I am 5’6
Many of the hate peddlers are trying to be modern day P.T. Barnum's, except even more dehumanizing of their subjects.
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I think these conservatives can kinda be glossed over with Narcissistic Personality Disorder at this point. When you see this pattern it becomes reasonable to point out that that despite their small differences, there is a clear and ubiquitous psychosocial trait that makes bigotry very pleasant to a fragile, narcissistic ego.
I absolutely see what you're getting at here, though I'd caution describing it as NPD. Bigotry is its own construct, and many people with NPD are not bigoted or hateful--some are, of course, but it's not NPD that makes people bigoted, it's bigotry.
There is definitely a lot of entitlement and a certain superiority complex in the thinking though, which (if I'm understanding correctly) I think is what you're describing, and I completely agree.
This absolutely cannot be glossed over with just NPD.
And frankly I'm sick of everyone demonising a disorder that _in the majority of cases_ doesn't cause harm to others.
@@FinntasticMrFox NPD isn't caused by a superiority complex, though, NPD can be summed up as an excess of self hatred, it's an inferiority complex and the grandiose behaviour is just bravado, a shield against letting people know how miserable they feel about who they are.
I really don't think we should be giving any agreement to a dangerous, misinformed, ableist and outright bigoted statement such as the OPs comment.
@@Jane-oz7pp I'm was talking about bigoted behaviour when I said that, not NPD. Many people misunderstand the term "narcissist" and I believe that's what the original commenter was describing--bigotry and self-aggrandizing behaviour, which is not NPD.
Heres a list of popular female influencers who have bragged about killing, assaulting or sexually assaulting men:
-Alix Earle
-Alex Cooper
-Drew Afualo
-Cardi B
-Lana Rhoades
-Riley Reid
-Danielle Bregolli
-Lizzo
-Corina Kopf
-Amy Schumar
-Julia Fox
-Mindy Kaling
Yes, and this is disgusting and vile. Where in this video was it even hinted at that this is okay?
@@FinntasticMrFox well those are all people the left props up. why dont you do a video on them? alix earl just r@ped a 17 year old boy, didnt lose any sponsorships , so that could be a relevant topic
and I never said you "hinted that this is okay" be an adult and dont put words into peoples mouths 😂
I was asking why this was relevant to this video. Also, I have heard of four of these people and dislike two of them and I’m very much a leftist. Most of the leftists I know really do not like Mindy Kaling, and her attitudes toward men are one of the reasons for that. You might need to broaden your scope when it comes to the leftists you’re engaging with.
Okay, now, how many actually did it and how many were quite literally joking?
You can't complain like this is a systemic issue when there are so many men who brag about abusing women that compiling a list is borderline impossible.
@@bblow6003as a leftist, I haven’t even heard of two thirds of those people, let alone “propped them up” lol
not sure about the comics. but miles is the villian of those movies
different miles, there's atleast 2 different miles morales. the Miles M we follow in the movies isnt the same one that becomes the Prowler
the main miles is the bad guy. he consistently runs away from his problems and responsibilities, he runs away from the people that are trying to save the universe. thats something a bad guy would do. @@salemwright9321
spidervers 2 was a hate watch for me. I spent the entire time yelling at my screen, trying to make that stupid little boy do the right thing@@salemwright9321
like when he lets the spot trash that guys bodego and then steals a burrito. what a little turd@@salemwright9321
weird comments to make when one of ur other comments on this video was 'it's just so much easier to blame everyone else,pay a game,jerk off and go to bed"
ur comments and arguments are surface lvl@@abunchanumbers
You wanna have conversations but delete or shadow any comment that you dont like? How intelligent and progressive 👎Dissent and disagreement is not hate.
I delete harassment that adds nothing. TH-cam automatically shadows comments believed to be inflammatory--I actually have to go through and unhide the ones that are made in good faith. Plenty of the comments here contain disagreement, and I have replied authentically.
Welcoming conversation does not mean I have to put up with baseless character accusations and dehumanization. This is my channel and I am under no obligation to welcome hateful tantrums from people who have no desire to connect honestly. Disagreement is fantastic, being an asshole is not. If you can't engage in conversation without behaving like a schoolyard bully, this is not the place for you.
Edit: Also, at least two people have deleted their own comments and specifically did so after I replied genuinely, so...
@FinntasticMrFox seems your definition of bully or asshole is someone telling you youre wrong. I tried to be respectful without compromising my perception of objective reality but it seems like if its a point you cant argue against then its just considered hate speech to you. I engage with queer channels and creators to get out of a bubble/echochamber and have discovered many good people because of it including jessie blair marcus ella and yourself. If my engagement is fruitless is not due to my closed-mindedness but the shut down reaction of people who dont want to be wrong at any cost.
Im sorry youre too sensitive for me and im too heavy handed for you. I wish you luck health and happiness and hope your channel works out the way you want. Commenting here is fruitless but im still subbed and will continue to view share and all that stuff. Goobye and good luck.
@@boomzillaallizmoob1759 Dude, are you blaming me for your comment getting eaten by TH-cam?
@FinntasticMrFox no i dont blame you. I definitely feel like youtube is becoming an echochamber because of peoples oversensitivity and the political leanings of those in charge. And convos about trans, covid, climate and race are the most "triggering" to the point where if you dissent you are instantly smeared/slured/canceled and it starts with the audience. Rumble is more free but since its only right wingers it too is a gross echochamber. If all the liberals went to rumble it would be much better than youtube. Nonetheless i feel like convos on this channel would be fruitless due to the audience so i will save myself and them the headache and simply watch but not engage. Lots of respect to you, it takes guts to put yourself out there and even more guts to engage in difficult conversations. We all admire that quite a bit. Sincerest well wishes to you and i look forward to your videos whether i agree with your opinion or not. ✌ peace.
Look its time to be honest Your/our stance has consequences and we need to be honest about it regardless if it hurts or makes us look bad.
We as the left shrug off there desires because we deem them wrong and it pushes them to the right. We dont respect men as they are in our advocacy for a better world that we think simply doesn't have room for them and we have to be honest about that.
It makes sense for them to go to the right, there not even in our picture of the future.
You demand me to respect men or women being women or men and identify in 100 ways and dont kink shame but its bad for him being who he already is and pursuing his desires because of patriarchy or misogyny. Somehow you can recreate what a man or women is but him being the man he has known for centuries is "wrong".
This doesn't come off educational but rather you can be anything else in the world but who you are as you preach everyone else can be who they are. They want those rewards and there is no winning in your "better world" not to mention they have no advantage in it.
For example this video says " I will not handhold your misogyny" in order to reach you but will literally coddle and make this a safe space for every other creed, concept, or belief. Its obvious why that would be alienating.
Look I am not saying the left needs to change but be honest about the consequences of our choices. You either care about them or you dont and this simply comes off as the right uses them so we might as well use them for our agenda and not about if your actually doing anything or not.
I get it you have more important work, agenda , focus but lets be honest about those outcomes when we discuss this group.
When you say "every other creed, concept, or belief" you are wrapping people's literal identities into it. Queer people are not queer at cost to others, it is simply who they are. You are likening *learned hatred* to someone's literal being, and the issue here is that the male identity is not synonymous with nor defined by the hatred men are taught.
Being misogynistic is not an identity. It is a behaviour, it is learned, and it is literally describing the hatred of another group of people. Those two things are not the same. I have connected with countless men on the grounds of being a man, and am (along with so many others) living proof that hatred is not an inherent part of that identity.
I understand what you're trying to get at here, so I hope the bluntness of my reply doesn't seem dismissive, but it's really dangerous to treat the things we're taught as the same as who we are. It's incredibly deterministic, and a false equivalency that continues to create space for specific men to treat their hatred as a key component of their identities.
so if your proof of a man and I dont disagree what are they proof of ? This is what were not being honest about. We dont like the consequences of that type of man and thus dont support them, it makes sense for the alienation.
We also should simply be honest about the consequences of this alienation for better or worse.
I agree with your stance what I disagree with is the honesty in the consequences of our desired tomorrow.
This is not acceptance of all people - this is building a new majority for our own interest. There will always be groups who don't benefit from that regardless of them having hatred , being able to mask it or can possibly remove it@@FinntasticMrFox
@@FinntasticMrFox can you please translate what op is talking about? I think this person is trying to say “misogyny/sexism is inherently a biological part of being a cis man, and the left needs to accept this behavior so we don’t alienate cis men who want to be part of the left” although it’d be at the cost of butting-heads socially with people who do NOT welcome misogyny & sexism. and wut ur trying to convey to this person is “being misogynistic is a taught behavior, it is not intrinsic to being born w a penis, and we already have cis men who dont partake in misogynistic behavior on the left.” Please, lmk what Im missing or misunderstanding.
I appreciate your bluntness my only point is lets be blunt about the consequences both for our cause and against. Its odd how we can remove the "man" known for centuries and say that now because that doesn't benefit us and say that amalgamation was not a "man" because of consequences. But can call our creations all men regardless of the consequences this is creating in general. Not to mention for these group of "not men" but learned behavior.
Is this not dangerous to them ? Just like the previous context is dangerous to us ?
Your right there not the same thing or even close but we cant deny were attempting to remove them as they were attempting to remove us regardless of how peaceful we deem ourselves to be.
You can call it whatever you like but eradication by any other name is still violence.
Again I dont disagree that were own the right path, I disagree with the honesty in the consequences of what were doing. @@FinntasticMrFox
That's not what I am saying. I am saying isolating any type of human has consequences. Doing it through changing what a man is or isn't has its own consequences and or doing it through prison has its own consequences.
Being on the left we don't need to deny there will be groups that don't benefit and worse off in this new utopia.
I find it odd we have the intellectual capacity to point out the harm in how modern man identifies but dont have the capacity in discussing the consequences in enforcing the removal of them from society.
This literal video discusses his interpretation coming of as feminine has consequences.
We dont need to deny removing there interpretation as masculine has consequences.
I am not attacking your on the right side of things. I am attacking the concept of war without causalities. @@spencersk83r
Nope, next ;)
You didn't like the video?