What If The 14 Points Actually Succeeded? | Alternate History
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points are often oversimplified and misunderstood. Fewer are even aware that the 14 Points didn't actually come to fruition, but saw significant deviations by the Triple Entente powers of France and Britain who wanted to acquire more geopolitical assets for themselves in the form of new colonies, allies, and resources, while punishing Germany and the Central Powers all the more. Wilson didn't want a new balance of power, Wilson wanted a sustaining peace that would keep America out of future wars now that it was a Great Power, and bound to be drawn into conflicts involving the likes of France, Britain, and Germany. In today's alternate history scenario we ask "what if the fourteen points actually succeeded" and go point by point, explaining what Wilson's plan actually meant, and how it would have impacted Europe and the world if it was successfully implemented following the Great War. Would World War Two still happen? Would Germany remain bitter? Would the Soviets still rise up?
0:00 Intro
2:41 What If The 14 Points Actually Succeeded?
2:54 Point 1 Explained
3:31 Point 2 Explained
4:11 Point 3 Explained
5:05 Point 4 Explained
5:45 Point 5 Explained
8:08 Point 6 Explained
10:17 Point 7 Explained
10:46 Point 8 Explained
11:09 Point 9 Explained
12:11 Point 10 Explained
12:49 Point 11 Explained
14:04 Point 12 Explained
17:02 Point 13 Explained
17:44 Point 14 Explained
20:57 Outro & Spinning Wilson
_____________________________________________
#MonsieurZ #ww1 #geopolitics
New Videos Every Saturday At 11:00 AM EST
______________________________________________
Our Socials: linktr.ee/monsieurdean
______________________________________________
Website:
www.USofZ.com/feed
______________________________________________
Music Used:
Howdy folks. Like I've said before, I'm aiming for 200k Subscribers, so if you haven't already, hit the subscribe button.
Hey man, great video. Could you do a video on the economic system of Catholic Distributism and will you finish the Seven Ages of America Series?
@@crusader2112 Did get a lot of interest for Distributism on our video on Corporatism, I'll definitely keep it in mind. And yes, the Seven Ages series will be completed.
@@MonsieurDean Yes, thanks. Keep up the great work and take care. Peace. ✌🏻
@@MonsieurDean I really hope that you reach 200k subscribers by the end of 2022!
@@MonsieurDean please make a video on what if russia wins ww3?
He truly was the first certified hoi4 peace deal AI.
Much like hoi4 peacedeals, it's the good ending
Mr Z, this is one of your most in-depth and thorough videos yet, almost like citing a historical analysis from another world. I've been watching your videos since early in 2020 and while even the early ones were intelligent and entertaining, there's really been an enormous improvement in this time. These and the contemporary analysis videos are some of your most impressive. Fantastic work and please keep it up!
Wilson still destroyed monarchy is Europe and pushed them towards globalism
11:41 If we're basing the borders of post-WWI Italy on nationality and ceding Corsica and Malta to them on this (debatable) basis, logic would dictate that South Tyrol would remain Austrian due to its German-speaking majority. Fiume and a larger portion of the Dalmatian coast being ceded to Italy would make sense though
Some kind of carrot would be needed to be given to Italy to reward them in the name of peace.
Only part of South Tyrol, the southern portion was Italian and the northern (which was also annexed) was Austrian
To me it would be yes but no. South tyrol would rather be divided between the german majority and italian majority to me
If we apply the same logic to Alsace-Lorraine, not all of it would go to France. Around 60 % of it’s population was German, even in 1870.
@@lennartherix6872 German speaking =/= German.
Even without the actual Treaty of Versailles (which was also not really implemented, enforced), especially if there were still any sizable reparations, the Great Depression would have probably still caused a lot of nationalist resentments and ambitions particularly in Germany, it's also hard to see the US and Europe, let alone right-wing countries in Europe, just remaining tolerant of Communist and ambitious (even if currently inwardly-focused) Russia.
Yes, but if the League of Nation was effective, the stopping of Japanese ambitions in China would stop any European nationalists from pursuing their territorial goals by the means of war. This would also make the Europe believe that the Bolshevik threat isn't an issue that could topple their governments. We could've very easily seen a long lasting peace.
Plus such a different outcome to WWI and geopolitical reorganization of the Western World makes the Great Depression hardly a inevitability
It could happen still, but it could as well have been completely butterflied away, it's very hard to predict for sure because it could go either way
@@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja How is the League going to be effective though? The UN certainly isn't so why would the League be any more effective?
@@LanMandragon1720 That isn't my job to solve. Perhaps they should be dictated by a vote of the majority, unlike the UN. No-one should have the right to veto.
@@Tommuli_Haudankaivaja Right so it wouldn't have worked then it's pretty straightforward. Neither organization had the ability to stop anything whatsoever. What does the League do when Japan invades China and thier objections are laughed at by Tokyo? Sanctions won't work because they happened IRL and didn't. What does the League do if the Germans decide to retake thier territory? The UK and France sat on thier hands IRL why wouldn't they here? The US will not be politically able to enforce the Legaues will in any realistic timeline either. So who's going to enforce what the League demands be done? No enforcement means no power its fairly straightforward the timeline is absurd.
Things like this just keep reminding me that we live in one of the worst timelines.
Sad but true.
At least we don't live in the timeline where the Soviet Union and the US nuked each other.
@@mrbisshie still, if there’s only one timeline worse than ours than it must be very bad.
At least we don't live in a timeline where the Nazis and the Japanese empire won.
@@finlandball1939 What about a timeline where the Nazis won ?
Wait, a map of Europe (and technically the Middle East) that uses more ethnic lines than lines of concurring? Impossible!
Noooo! Are you telling me Wilson actually had good intentions and wasn't the mortal manifestation of Satan ?!?!?!?
Based and nuance-pilled
I agree with you Achaean, even if I still don’t like Wilson and “the progressive era”.
I disagree, empires are based. Wilson was in a cynical campaign to weaken the European Empires so that the progressives could more effectively control the world without a strong nation capable of resisting it.
If you believe that is not the case, explain why.
Wilson was still pretty bad and a horrific person
Good intentions? Stalin had good intentions as well! Hitler had good intentions! A lot of people in history had good intentions. That doesn't make them not terrible
Honestly this, along with personal reading, has really lightened my opinion on Wilson, he may not have been the greatest, however he had some good points.
Also the increase in color compared to the last video is nice.
14 points
@@MonsieurDean indeed 14 good points haha
Since I have your attention by the way how would the Belgians react to the transfer of the Congo?
Lol
Wilson may have been one of if not the worst president in U.S. history, but the 14 points was a good idea and should have been implemented properly.
Agreed.
Unfortunately the United States of 1918 would not accept or fellow any of the 14 points in the occupation of Haiti and South America intervention.
@@timcoffey1169 Haiti was the one who took out debts it couldn't pay.
14 points would still lead to a WW2. It really wasn't that good of a plan.
As much as I believe following the 14 points may have prevented WWII, it's difficult for me to say that would have been a great scenario since WWII directly led to my existence since my grandparents only met because my grandfather was drafted into the Army and was stationed in Texas where he met my grandmother. These are certainly interested scenarios and hindsight shows most of us that these ideas should have been a no-brainer to implement in order to prevent a second war.
That’s why we shouldn’t try to change the Past but learn from it.
Bruh i highly HIGHLY doubt the 14 points would prevent another war
@QuantumMeme The only thing this scenario succeeds in is making Europeans pissed off at America for creating an "American" version of Europe, could probably expect to see a lot of nations rivaling of getting angrier at America for the 14 points
US not entering WW1 would've prevented WW2.
Considering that Germany would've still lost the Corridor and Alsace-Lorraine, the Nazis would still have risen to power so WW2 would've still happened...
The rise of National-Socialism wasn’t just about the Treaty of Versailles. They truly became popular during the Great Depression and the economic turmoil, inflation and political instability it caused
Thing is the Great Depression was part caused by the unsustainable systems set up that ruined Germany economically and left them dependent on loans from the US to repay their war debt who was in turn having the Entante members use that money to repay their debts to the US they acquired during the war. A depression probably occurs but nowhere near as severe, in this alternate timeline.
all that was because of Versailles. The "stab-in-the-back-myth" was used since the early 1920th by right wing propagandists. It said that the republicans, socialists and jews sold German land while the German army was winning. A unification with Austria and territorial integrity (dearmarment of the Rhineland, occupation of the Ruhr) would've counteracted that myth.
Without Versailles, Germany could've diversified their economy and would've not the hyperinfaltion of 1923.
The German republic (Weimar Republic) was instable from the beginning. Reparations, isolation and constant occupation were looming damocle swords for the German governments.
If the Great Depression of 1929 would hit Germany as harsh or even harsher than in reality, National-Socialism wouldn't be that popular. I think, social democrats and communists would've been more succesful than in reality.
@@derorje2035 seems unlikely that Germany would of been so much better off, that mustache man never whipped up crowd for all those other regions.
@@danf7411 Austria, Sudeten and Poland were part of the "Lebenraum" region, mustache-man wanted for the German people.
When the only difference for Germany were the borders of 1930, we probably would have had a socialist government, they got stronger as well during the recession.
What if Japan sided with the Allie’s in ww2? Japan had a good relationship with Poland due to them both hating Russia. Maybe once Russia invaded Poland japan could work something out with the Allies and get a few islands and the oil they need for there navy in exchange they would attack Germany. The Allies would also have to declare war on Russia to help Poland.
In that senario that ment that China would most likely be part of the Axis powers as they are already being aided by the germans, which meant Japan could keep its war against china going with the allies aiding it as it would be part of the allies. This would also mean Japan wouldn’t attack pearl harbor as the British and Soviets would aid em.
The result of WW2 in this senario would be a cold war between communist bloc vs the greater east asia bloc led by the Japanese empire with its puppet states Manchukou, Inner Mongolia, and reorganized republic of china as the soviets did envisioned about spreading their influence in asia, them occupying/puppeting the west of china.
I apologize for editing continuously cuz I struggles to keep this consistent with the original comment.
@@firemangan5024 and the allies would close the Burma road that was giving china supplies. I think japan attacking Russia would cause them not to attack the us keeping it neutral.
The Yamato and Musashi provides fire support on d-day. And after the war Admiral Yamamoto retires to gamble along the Mississippi River just as he wanted to. :)
Maybe Jinroh would have happened
@@CasualGamingDad187 officially Germanys reason for declaring war on US was simply cause USA had already destroyed a few German subs.
The underlying belief, that academics and so-called experts could create peace, is the problem of the 14 points.
Mr Z, congratulations for this material. A good alternate history but there is one point that I cannot see happening under any circumstances: France ceding Corsica to Italy and British Empire giving up Malta willingly. The two societies were completely shattered after the war and in no mood for ceding territories. Maybe a French government would have accepted an exchange Corsica for Vale d'Aosta but even this seems unlikely. As for the British Empire Malta was essential in the arhitecture of their control of the Mediteranean shipping routes.
Here’s an idea for a video: what if America did not get a place in the negotiations for the piece treaties, so france is pretty much free to do what it wants with Germany, Britain does the same with the colonies, the treaty of London is FULLY followed for Italy’s portion of the treaty and more, it could be a cool idea
One of your best videos! Really in-depth and well put.
I highly doubt that the 14 points could have led to any peaceful future as a lot of the demands in there were contradictory. The paper champions the idea of self-determination, but focuses on nation (ethno-)states and finally tries to marry that with strategic concerns like access to the sea. None of those could have been even remotely satisfyingly resolved in the highly diverse countries of Central and Eastern Europe of the time. Wilson's "experts" were incredibly naive ivory tower scholars who had no idea of the actual realities on the ground. Culture, economic concerns and religion played a much bigger role than ethnicity even in the time of nationalism.
One of the best examples for his folly is Alsace-Lorraine. The Alsace is (largely to this day) ethnically and linguistically German - but culturally French. The people there would have very likely voted to be a part of France if somebody had asked them (preferably with some sort of regional autonomy clause). However, Wilson himself excludes Alsace-Lorraine in the 14 points from the principle of self-determination. Wilson also determines that Poland and Serbia need access to the sea without even bothering to ask if the Montenegrins or Kashubians wanted to become a part of those countries, because he considered them to be ethnically Serbian and Polish respectively - a lot of them might have disagreed.
There's many other examples: The Memel-Lithuanians were actually quite happy within Prussia. Prussia had allowed them to preserve their own language and culture (it was even an important retreat for Lithuanian nationalists from the other side of the border), but they were Protestant - not Catholic like the rest of Lithuania. Something they faced repression for after they were annexed by Lithuania. Would Trieste have wanted to become a part of Italy if somebody had told them they'd become a forgotten border village instead of the prestigious Austrian Adria port?
How do you deal with areas were the cities are one ethnicity, but the surroundings are of another? Lwow, Pressburg, Trieste, Marburg a.d. Drau, etc. Those issues were only really resolved through the ethnic cleansings during and after WW2.
With a few exceptions, the borders could and should have remained largely the same and the internal issues should have been dealt with increases to autonomy. Look at the German minority in modern Belgium - they have no interest in returning to Germany because of how overblown their input is in Belgian politics. South Tirol only stopped being a major issue for Italy once they became a) part of the European Union together with Austria and b) autonomous (an autonomy their Lombard and Venetian neighbors are now jealous about).
Let's face it. People don't really care who they are governed by as long as they are left in peace, can practice their culture, and have options to socially climb.
You are totally right about culture over ethnicity, judging by etchnicity only is liberal and nationalistic method that only inspired radicals.
Although there are cultures that were neglected with efforts to replace it with culture of country elites. Like Germanisanition of slavs in Germany and Austria, Magyarisation in Hungary (Slovaks, Transilvanyans, Serbs), Italian speaking and slovenian socities in Austria, Bohemia also experienced Germanisation( btw they were protestant in catholic Austria).
Borders should change and much, as situation in Europe 1914 was like "Big cats already eaten small ones, and want more". Bohemia, Poland, and other states subdued by force should be free, also Hungary wanted indepedence from Austria, while Transilvanyans would perefer to stay in the empire, but they cant as empire died. Austria after democratic revolution not wanted any returning to the, instead they wanted to be part of Germany. Alsace-Lorraine also was not unitary in terms of culture, like 70% should return to France, city of Metz may stay German (Independent Alsace -Lorraine is also a possibility).
So the map of Europe would be hardly the same it was before 1914, more it should be like 18th century
Good points.
As for Montenegro: Up to this time most Montenegrins (at least the orthodox ones) would have felt to be serbians, mostly even "better" serbians than those of Serbia proper.
Only after the coup of 1918, instigated by the serbian king against his own brother in law (his grandson would later become king in 1921), the montenegrin king and the christmas uprising of 1919 where soldiers loyal to the montenegrin king rebelled, did a significant minority (mostly in the older core territories) start to feel significantly different to serbians. Had instead the montenegrin king become the new king of Yugoslavia this drift might never have happened.
I for the most part agree with you. But there is one thing I feel is very important that isnt really being discussed. The stability of the middle east and africa.
I honestly think the 14 points did a decent job giving Africa and the middle east a chance for stability and for a far better future than what we see today. It's not perfect but it's defenetly better than whatever tf france and england did in our timeline. What the french and English government did all the way back at the end of ww1 to Africa and the Middle East sparked much of the instability that we still see to this day. Yes there were other outside factors before and after the end of ww1, but for the most part, they really screwed up with things like the Sykes-Picot agreement.
The 14 points while not perfect could have given them a chance to in your words "practice their culture, and have options to socially climb." Defenetly far more of a chance than just letting France and Britain carve the cake or leaving the borders the same as they were before the war (leaving many of the middle eastern states under ottoman rule, the very same establishment who commited mass genocide against the armenians).
For me the Soviets will start ww2 probabily..however I don't think the germans may Italy may go fascist if they don't give to them like Dalmatia.
@@AshleyGravesreal Italy would go fascist thats for sure, it was more about social dissapointment and conuter-action agaist local communists, than about war. Soviets may go for Baltics or Poland lands, but i doubt that they would risk a full blown war.(definitely not in 1941)
What if China collapsed during the Three Kingdoms Period and never reunited? What would the cultural and linguistic effects be? How would it affect Asia and Europe?
Sometimes I wonder what would happen if Rome was the one that suffered from multiple civil wars but always reunited afterwards and China was the one that collapsed entirely into small nations until the 19th century.
It would’ve led to India being the only dominant power east Asia for centuries before being inevitably taken advantage of by britian (just as in real life) and Japan would see its self in a more competitive situation as most likely the smaller states that have risen since the fall china would’ve been colonize or the very least be under European sphere of influence (which would be alot greater than it was in real life.)
@@wargamesmaster Rome did break up a bunch of times and reformed. We just use another narrative, but there def. have been plenty of Roman Rumps states for several years that then reforged. Let's not forget that those Chines Kingdomes stem from Chines Warlords.
@@edrickhuge4637 But Rome as a civilization is gone while China is still around.
That's what my wish was about, a what if video on if Rome was the one that survived despite civil wars and break ups into 3 or more kingdoms while China is the one that lose everything, fracture into small kingdoms and reunite into a new nation with a new culture & language.
@@firemangan5024 Britain's take over of India was far from inevitable. It was mostly happenstance and chance.
Not a bring the military fight the helpless natives....
The indians were far from helpless.
A long history of bad luck for the Indians, betrayals, wise moves by the British increasing their power incrementally
sad no Assyrian mention but still a great video as usual
Incredible video!!! Great work
Thanks, pal!
Cool video, never thought of this actually.
Monsieur Z vs. Cynical Historian boxing match, winner is right about Woodrow Wilison
I’m rooting for Mr. Z!!!
th-cam.com/users/shortsp1vsNu05-v8
@@MonsieurDean LOL nice! Thank you for that!
Cool video, very useful for understanding the 14 points
***Monsieur Z makes a video on what if Wilson’s plan had succeeded***
“Vlogging Through History You’re treading on thin ice buddy”
Also, hey can you remake the video where Russia doesn’t get involved in the First World War?
Although, maybe change to focus on what if Alexander III Romanov didn’t die specifically.
Hehe it would be funny if VTH reacts to this...
@@hawx00145 And the other Wilson video especially, and the Seven Ages of America as a whole.
great work
Hell yeah! Got my suggestion made into a video!
Finally a video that talks about the fourteen points and the result that will have occurred if it was used instead of the treaty of Versailles awesome video
The french would have Never let the Italians get Corsica, the place where the french emperor Napoléon was born
The French emperor was Italian.
In his early childhood in Corsica, Napoleon disliked the French and saw them as mere occupiers of his homeland.
@@hawx00145he still was the French emperor, he fought for the French not the italians
@@MonsieurDean he wasn't italian, Corsica was from the republic of genoa, there wasn't anything like "Italy" yet
@@hawx00145 yeah. In his childhood. And then he proceded to do all of his éducation in France, learn how to command there, and without the révolution his génius wouldn't have been exploited at all, since he was only coming from a minor nobility
Well I enjoy your videos I have to say this one seems particularly unlikely.
This due to how largely it seems to disadvantage Britain, losing both Cyprus and Malta alongside preferential trading with the empire I think would be to much. It seems especially unreasonable taking into account the fact that the public would be told that the entente won. I would not put it past Britain to refuse to agree to the treaty. Or if they did agree to the treaty I would expect the British public to view the treaty as a mutilated treaty. I believe this would directly go against Wilson’s goal as this could encourage more radical ideologies in Britain which could result in more wars.
Yeah, there's no way without more territorial gains in Africa that Britain would ever accept this.
France losing the home of Napoleon, Hungarians losing the borders of the kingdom of Hungary, the Germans losing Alsace-Lorraine (Especially the ethnically German bits), Britain losing pieces of its empire which were organically developed from important trade hubs held for centuries. The idea that this would make peace is insane
Not to mention it looses the Self-Determination question out of Pandora's box which has arguably been the cause of more conflict and horrors than it has ever prevented. The Irish civil war would have Britain against the league had the league worked as intended, and I doubt any of the other great power losers would sit by and not air their own grievances. The peace would have been even shorter than the 20 year spurt of Versailles.
Unlike Versailles which just pissed off the losers, this treaty would piss off everybody.
@@reviveempires As much as I agree that it would probably piss off everyone involved and even those who were not, it would still follwed be a better reality than the one of our own.
@@reviveempires The 14 points are also idiotically... optimistic for a lack of a better word. Or at least some of the interpretations here are. As an example: there is NO way Germany would get to keep any of its colonies. The "impartial adjustment" would consist of France and Britain to tell the Germans to suck it followed by them grabbing all the colonies like it happened OTL. Singled out the germans because I am unaware of other Central Powers having colonies.
And this is just an example.
The only reality, if this was ever actually enforced, I see coming is that the vast majority of nations begin to despise the USA. For good reasons too.
@@reviveempires the Home of Napoleon which he didn’t consider himself part of which he himself repressed and didn’t even identify as? Yes very bad how could the French accept such massive loss. Uh yes! By remembering them they’re not going to have any other war and that they already got Savoy and Nice which were The land of the Italian royal family and of Garibaldi so yeah France wouldn’t had much to complain as Corsica wasn’t worth much for them but a lot for Italy
nice very detailed 14 point plan
I thought this was going to be about Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera's 14 points.
Nice video.
You are very optimistic as to many aspects.
1. The Turkish actively and successfully fought agains Greek and remaining allied occupation of what is today inside Turkeys borders, especially Smyrna. While they would have accepted different middle eastern boders, still just as little under their control as in reality, they would not have accepted even more land being given to Greece or Georgia, nor would they have failed to act against it.
2. France would NEVER have given Italy Corsica after winning the war and huge national trauma of the losses to get them there. It would have been political suicide for any French politician signing of on this. They were already in favour for continuing the war into Germany, once their army collapsed.
3. Polish borders were determined by Polish military victory against the Red army. There is no power at the time that would have any interest in helping the Red army militarily, so the outcome would have been mostly the same.
4. Given the absolute shithead of a president Wilson actually was towards other ethnic groups in particular, among other things, it is doubtful, that he would actually have pursuit them this positively, even had he not been outmanouvered by virtually every other major allied power politician.
5. The outcome as to Fascist & Communist victories in countries, may be different, but it is hard to categorically state as you did, that they wouldn't develop. Many Germans still were resentful, and believing peace was signed in betrayal of victorious fighting men. The peace being less harsh may have lessened their chances somewhat, but also would have left an immediately much stronger Germany to fight WW2, if they did fall. Nothing in these changes stops the great depression from happening. And any concession to one side meant a loss to another. France was already in a bad economic situation, even with higher German war reparations, and even then was at the verge of supporting Communism here and there. If they had received what for them equated to a much worse peace deal, maybe we would have seen WW2 as a Communist Spain, France, Soviet coalition started affair. It is hard to say, when you just change historical facts, without a real reason for them to be able to change such. History doesn't happen in a vacuum. Decisions aren't random. Given the same people & situations, they would happen again the same way.
If I was Wilson I wouldn't have joined the Entente during WW1 but instead would've given an ultimatum in 1916 that whoever does not agree with the points I would set would face war.
It would include an immediate end to hostilities and restoring of pre war borders.
Alsace-Lorraine becomes and independent buffer state between Germany and France with territorial and neutrality guarantees from the League of Nations countries.
Luxemburg would be absorbed as new state into Germany as it was one of the only states of the German Confederation not to due to agreements for it to be a buffer, since Alsace-Lorraine would be a much bugger and better buffer now Luxemburg can join the union and it's extremely hard to fight a war through Luxemburg the logistics would be atrocious for the attacking army which is a good thing.
Belgium would be restored with all it's territories intact and a territorial and neutrality guarantees from the league of nations.
Poland which had gained independence with the help of Germany would cease to be a German puppet and gain full independence however they would not gain the territories of Danzig, Posen and the corridor to avoid any future border conflicts between Germany and Poland, likewise these will be the final Eastern border of Germany and no German eastward expansion would be allowed.
The Baltic states would be independent and so would Finland, Lithuania would not gain Memel since the main ethnicity there wasn't Lithuanian and it would only harm Lithuania by making them a future target of border disputes.
Italy would gain Trentino and all other Italian ethnic majority lands.
Austro-Hungary would be dissolved, Croatia and Bosnia would gain independence, Austria would be reduced to Austria proper including Tyrol, Slovenia and the Sudetenland, Czechia and Slovakia would be formed as two separate states though on close union to each other and they would under the league of nations agreement have free or very cheapened port access to the sea through Germany and it's independence and neutrality aswell as territories to be guaranteed by the league of nations, breaking this agreement would result in war with all of the league of nations including a full on embargo.
Serbia and Montenegro would unite and restore it's territories and have access to the sea.
Bulgaria would have to give up Macedonia to Serbia and thrace to Greece.
Germany would lose Tanzania and it would become a British colony to allow them to complete their cape-cairo rail.
Germany would lose Togoland to France.
Germany would lose Kameroon to France.
Germany would lose Namibia which would become an Italian colony.
German soldiers in Belgium would spend a year to fix any damage in Belgium as reparations.
Germany would keep some of it's navy but would lose East Papua to the UK and it would be incorporated into Australia. 10% of the German navy would go to Belgium as reparations and another 10% to France as reparations.
The Ottoman Empire would be dissolved, the Arab Republic of the Levant and Mesopotamia would be established, Kurdistan would be established as a democratic Republic, Turkey would be established and keep Eastern thrace aswell as Constantinople, Anatolia would remain a part of Turkey.
The Dardanelles would be open for free passage of ships.
Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan would be established as independent states.
Ukraine would gain independence though Crimea would remain a part of Russia.
Russia will be obligated to receive huge amounts of aid on food to help the starving population and both all the factions of the reds and the whites would be invited to attend a League of Nations meeting were they would negotiate peacefully if possible for a solution for the civil war and how things should be treated, there won't be any direct involvements in the civil war though., Kazakhstan and Belarus would remain a part of Russia, Turkmenistan would be an independent buffer state along with Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan and be called the Central Asian Republic or Central Asian Soviet Republic if the communists win the civil war there.
Persia's independence would be restored and all British and Russian forces would have to evacuate.
Brazil would receive industrial aid from the USA like promised.
Germany would lose the port of Tsingtao and it would be ceded to China.
Japan and the USA would gain all the German colonies in the Pacific.
All countries must reduce their armed forces.
Romania and Hungary divide Transylvania, Romania would also gain Bessarbia/Moldovia.
Greece would gain Cyprus though it would keep it's British presence there including military bases and de facto control of foreign affairs, the internal affairs of it's citizens would remain Greece's.
Germany would become a constitutional democratic monarchy and would unite with German-Austria.
The League of Nations would include all countries and all members states must follow all the protocols including preserving all the guarantees of independence.
@@cqpp w except I would still the germans keep a colony or 2
Large areas of the middle east were Greek speaking. I include in this the south west corner of what is now Turkey... the 1919 Greek landing on Asia Minor was a disaster from which Greece has never recovered. I tried to find out just what happened, but information is minimal. It appears that the Greek army was doing well, liberating Greek regions from Turkish control, and then the generals fought amongst themselves. That led to a complete disaster, where the army was wiped out and vast numbers of Greek people killed. It is said that as recently as the 1970s, skeletons could still be seen on the ground in deserted villages of the former Greek inhabitants.
Woodrow Wilson do be a chad.
It would be very interesting if this timeline would be a series or there is a part 2 on the works
Serbia and Montenegro wanted to unite under a dual monarchy in the first place. Not only was Montenegro Orthodox and “largely South Slavic”, but it was at most 90% Serbian - one of the purest Serb lands, where the only ethnically diverse and mixed part was Eastern Kosovo, which still was relatively and mostly Serbian.
The only problem in the timeline is, of course, Yugoslavia, as you have mentioned it. It, as a project and concept, was the priority of both Serbia and the entente as of the second half of 1915, and is the direct consequence and product of The UK’s wishful thinking.
1915 London Treaty states that Serbia/Montenegro was to gain the largest part of Dalmatia (*although it would have been demilitarized in favor of Italy*), Bosnia, Slavonia and Western Vojvodina. And, in order to secure those territories, Serbia would have been forced to concede parts of Macedonia gained in the 2nd Balkan War, a territory in which many costly battles have been fought with the Bulgarians. Exactly because of the involvement of USA did some of these premature points come to realization after the war.
If points 8-11 are implemented in this timeline, then a majority Serb ethnic state would have been created, encompassing way less territories that the Entente had promised prior to the evacuation of Serbia. This simple Serbian war goal was unacceptable to Britain and France, so they gave Serbia two options - to accept the London Treaty as it was or to create Yugoslavia.
Uttermostly, I don’t understand why and how the (former) Russian Empire would be Bolshevik, even if we count in the point about it.
i absolutely love this video! i feel the only thing that you missed is irish war of independence, I feel the there would be some british-american contention regarding ireland’s struggle
What if the Polish-Lithuanian/Swedish union never dissolved?
What if the second Moroccan crisis triggered the Great War?
if the second Moroccan crisis triggered the Great War
That would be much better for Germany, as Italy was not busy in Libya yet, so it would be much less of a problem if they join Germans as triple alliance supposed. Secondly Ottoman Empire still not suffered Balkan wars, Balkan League would be Encircled by Ottomans, Austria-Hungary, Romania and Greece (since Greek king was Pro-German and hated Bulgarians) . While Russia was licking wounds after Russo-Japanese war. Central powers victory?
Seems like british was a constant issue with the future likelihood of the crumbling of their empire
Those 14 points were the pavement towards world peace
What if Henry Fitzroy had lived longer and was added to the 1543 act of Succession.
Fascinating! While many people trace WW2 itself back to the consequences resulting from the Treaty of Versailles, I feel we all-too-often take for granted that events unfolded as they did. What if the Cuban Missile Crisis had escalated into a full-scale nuclear conflict between the United States and the Soviet Union?
JFK would be remembered as the Joe Biden of that era for allowing it to deteriorate to that point by not assisting the Cuban rebels when he could have, and in the process, snatched unthinkable disaster from the jaws of an easy victory for no clear reason.
End of civilization as we know it
WW3 last a single day
Two censored comments.
TH-cam is communism. If we had sent nukes to Russia youtube wouldn't exist as it does today.
Simple: The west and the communist blocs will be a nuclear wasteland whilst countries that were neutral (the South American nations, and Switzerland for example) would be just be watching as the events unfold.
we die lol
what else did you expect
What if America joined the League of Nations ?
Wouldn't happen the US public was extremely isolationist at the time. For example pre Pearl Harbor 70% of the public opposed intervention. You would need a POD in the 1870s minimum to get this done.
@@LanMandragon1720 The reason American sentiment was against the League of Nations, is the same reason NATO fears are stoked today: Article 5. In truth, Europe has used and abused American logistical hub capabilities. We essentially are a wild card for the European powers to wage their wars, whereas previously the European powers didn't have those capabilities. This is the same reason the European Powers have not invested in their security, meanwhile they claim it's a problem.
In hindsight, the Marshall Plan and others were a mistake as we got the European Powers more and more addicted to US logistical and economic capabilities. In learning from our history, we need to decouple the Europeans from us, in order to achieve true international peace.
This is going to be interesting…
The South Tryol should stay Austrian while the Trentino majority italian goes to italy
Germany had every right to sink our ships supplying a people they where at war with.
What if Japan won the Imijin War ?
Grand Admiral Yi: Not in my Watch!
Will then Japan empire over Korea and China would if it did not choose to advance its civilization and kept trying to conquer china and beyond China, Japan would get picked apart by the European empires and replace China as the empire to get humiliated in the century of humiliation China suffered.
What if Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera wasn't executed and became leader of Spain after the Spanish civil war?
I second this, or Ramos maybe?
@@crusader2112 Ramiro Ledesma Ramos leading Spain? That's a wonderful idea.
Thanks for a vid that actually takes a positive spin on Woodrow Wilson. He was a consensus great leader and peacemaker for 90 years then somebody in Academia figured out that they could sell books where he was villainized and the trend definitely spread to TH-cam.
That and Neckbeard atheists online who somehow managed to get a lot of views…
Good video.
Regardless of how you interpret point 10, pan Slavism or at least scaled down regional variants of it like Yugoslavism, were very popular among the Slavic populations of Austria-Hungary at the time and the overwhelming sentiment was unification of the South Slavs, hell at that point right at the end of WWI you had a significant minority of Croat intellectuals arguing for developing a united culture with Serbia either through creating a “synthetic culture” or through assimilation. Of course this was tried in our timeline and failed and would fail in this timeline as well, but it does go to show how popular unification was in the popular consciousness. Most Croats weren’t that extreme but at the time still generally favoured a balanced union of the south Slavs and Slovaks had a similar attitude towards uniting with the Czechs
Edit: as for Bosnia, at the time almost nobody was really advocating for the Bosniaks sadly and everyone was happy to let them be absorbed. Hell, in 1910, though Bosnia had no majority, Serbs, not Bosniaks, were the largest group, so a Bosniak homeland would at that time have been even more difficult and controversial than the bloody mess in the 90s. Especially with so much international public opinion behind Serbia at that point, I really don’t see an independent Bosnia in 1918, at best I see Serbia being pressured into providing guarantees for good treatment of Muslims.
@@northseapirate2313 That's what I'm saying. There was a nascent national movement among Muslim speakers of Serbocroatian. It was big enough for king Aleksandar I to adopt a Muslim ward as a token gesture, but it wasn't mainstream, with many still self-identifying as Muslim Serbs or Croats and more importantly it wasn't really registered by the international community.
The Maltese people themselves never spoke Italian or even Latin, only as an official state language, but the vernacular was Punic, Greek, Arabic, the last of which became Maltese, and nowadays thanks to the media - long after the Brits left us - English. Being traded in for Italian irredentism would have not been appreciated that much
Now I want to do a Hoi4 run with these borders
Extremely super duper unheard of Wilson W
Very cool video, but its just a tiny bit weird that Germany kept Königsberg, but Hungary didn't keep Székelyföld. Anyways keep it up Mr Z!
Point 9; Italy was not under compensated. Far from being given territory conforming to Italian Nationality,
Italy was given South Tyrol - a majority German region- from Austria - and in the following 25 years tried to make it Italian, renaming it Alto Adige. Today it remains a majority German region within Italy.
this is an amazing political analysis & alt-hist video!
could you explain the partition of India & whai if it hadn't happened?
Your Point 9 map missed the german majority in South Tirol, which exist there still today. Also on the final Point 14 map the germans in Holstein and Schleswig (who voted to stay with germany after WW1 because these territorys where majority german) are missing as well. Also funny that Alsase-Lorraine was given back to france since in an 1910 poll the majority there felt german, just to appease them? Nuts! Besides from that, it would be an intersting timeline, but as you said, Britain joined the war just for economic fears over germany and would never accepted that (in fact, France and Britain thought of themself as world powers until the Suez-Crisis and would not have stoped that belive without such an humiliation.
France pretty much still consider themselves a world power.
In south Tirol live austrians not german….🤦🏻🤦🏻
@@JusTCheap15 The concept of "austrians" was not present at that time. People in Austria were culturaly and liguistically germans. Also identified themselves as germans
@@romegon3942 what are you talking? Horse shit? Austria was long there before germany even unified😂😂😂😂😂
I like in this video, Denmark get schleswig as a whole back
What's that lump around Virovitica or Pozega in Croatia around 13:30, protruding into Hungary?
You should do a video on "What If the Iron Order 1919 happened"
F I N A L L Y !
Someone actually understands Woodrow Wilson! People always mischaracterize Woodrow Wilson as some sort of Proto-FDR when, in reality, he was something quite different. His entire mentality of world politics was one of regional autonomy; not of spreading democracy to everyone and everything.
He is, in a sense, an extension of the southern viewpoint of world politics: decentralization of authority between different states and permitting regions to have autonomy over their own actions is the best way to govern a civilization and maintain general peaceful relations. The issue is this proposition was ignored by the European powers in favor of simply reaping Germany and the Central Powers of as much territory as possible and punishing them for a war that Europe, as a whole, was responsible for.
What Woodrow Wilson wanted was a lasting peace; something that would avert conflict by granting autonomy to the regions that needed it most while leaving the other powers relatively unaffected.
Great in depth video on an interesting topic! If Wilson’s fourteen actually succeeded there probably wouldn’t have been a Second World War like in our timeline! Germany being treated fairly was a HUGE one, which would’ve probably led the new Germany to be less disdainful towards the allied powers that would possibly prevent the rise of the Nazis. It’s all what if’s though so we can only speculate what could have happened.
A carved up turkey? A lost opportunity
Day 36 of asking what if the Zulu beat the British out of south Africa
I think that, given China's instability, the League may see Japan as an important ally in East Asia and a means of ensuring lasting stability in the region, and so may allow Japan to establish its sphere of influence on its own or perhaps step in to assist in establishing said sphere diplomatically.
You know what could have prevented WW2 ? If Germany had been carved up in several smaller states, like Austria Hungary was.
Austria never came back from this and until today is a small country.
If Germany had been divided in 3 or 4 countries, well you wouldn’t have had a WW2, and they eventually would have developed strong distinct national identities like the Austrians did in our timeline
In other words, what if Woodrow Wilson had integrity.
When will the scar Nicholas saga continue
I want it to be this month.
Thanks I love that series can’t wait
6:58 I liked that
I personally cannot see Mustafa Kemel backing down in the Turkish war of independence against the greek portions of Anatolia. The eastern part of Turkey I could easily see changing but not the west. It was too geopolitically important for the Turks. I instead see the Greeks gaining Cyprus, and further land acquisitions in Europe but would stop short of the Dardanelles and Instanbul, which would remain in Turkish hands.
Nnooooo Wilson was Hitlet he wouldn't want that the cynical historian told me. Wilson bad!
Hehe
What if the allies invaded Germany in WW1?
Finally some good rep for Wilson
I see the Megali idea there. Excellent!
Thankfully that never happened in real timeline.
Monsieur Z while making this map gives Denmark schleswig-holstein and refuses to elaborate. very cool and very based
Neat
You have unlocked: the good ending
0:16 "neutral american ships"
if you sell arms to just one side, you're no longer neutral.
I guess that means no Asia Minor Catastrophe
Can't help but notice that Vardar is independent, despite being ethnically bulgarian.
Macedonia and thrace are bulgarian, Wilson!
It's very possible for some radical ideologies to gain support of majority of the people, as basically there was lot of things that two or more nations claimed to be rightfully theirs. Maybe that wouldn't have such an impact as in the real world, but I surely can see Poland taking Italy's place in this timeline. Just think: before WW2 many cities on the western parts of Ukraine and Belarus were dominated by Polish people, and they now didn't have them. Also, Polish society was very anti communist in that period, so national democrats and falangists would play bigger role in the parlament, maybe even stopping Sanation from taking over. I like trying to figure out possible outcomes of alternative history.
ignoring the 14 points is literally what caused the second world war
i don't really know who this Wilson guy is but as a serb I like his ideas
Thoughts on Albania and Kosovo uniting
Wilson should have made agreeing to his peace plan a pre-requisite of America entering the war on our future allies behalf.
idk this seems like a pretty decent deal
Theodore should have had 3 terms as president. Would have been the greatest one of all time
What If Alexander The Great lived (remake)?
What if Tecumseh had succeeded?
What if the Aztecs defeated Cortez?
Very nice, however I disagree that Turkey would fail to win in their war of independence. In our timeline they fought off the greeks, georgians, armenians, british, french, and what remained of the ottomans. I believe they would be capable of fending off some new arab nations and a United Sates that in our timeline barely provided any support to the entente in the war.
Doubt, the turks barely won, and only because the British and French had no stomach for extended conflict, the yanks are still fresh and the Arabs are highly motivated. Plus the Greeks, Armenians, and Georgians only accepted peace becuase the British and fench backed out with continued American support they would not, and possibly neither would France and Britian.
Attaturk would have lost eventually, they would be vastly outnumbered by a determined enemy that also has international backing and the industrial might.
But they might turn fascist in this timeline and be the caurse of ww2.
not really. The turks only really fought the greeks, and barely even won. They only won because france and britain stopped helping and because the bolsheviks provided the turks with guns. In this timeline where there is a united arabia that would sure fight like hell to preserve its independence while having american help as well, i just cant see how they would win. Dont forget as well that the soviets are friendly to the west in this timeline because they didnt intervene in the civil war. So turkey would be really isolated if they fought.
@@shanuz9886 The Bolsheviks would likely still be on bad terms (maybe slightly better) with the dirty capitalist pigs and would likely still funnel aid to Turkey. The US would likely also not intervene much in the war as they didn't intervene much in our timeline. The uk and french wouldn't get involved at all since they had no colonies to protect and were exhausted. Turkey could also just ignore Georgia and Armenia in this timeline which would free up more men and resources.
@@shanuz9886 Turks didn't only fight Greeks. Turkey fought Georgians in north, Armenia in west and France in south as well. And tides of war started to turn against Greece way before the Soviet aid. Whether Turkey wins in this timeline completely depends on US support. If US decides to stay out of it Turkey would probably make peace with Arabs and most likely win again against the rest of the nations. If US actually decides to put its weight than Turkey would probably lose.
15:00 the massive population of Pontic Greeks at the time is left unchecked. Unless the hypothetical Georgia would be predominantly greek
A question I have about the Scramble for Africa is why the colonial nations didn't settle disputes with condominium territory connecting colonies across Africa. Was this just too much to ask for, never considered, unrealistic, or all of the above?
Mr Z, when can you make the next episode of the scar Nicholas trilogy???
I'm working on it right now. It is REALLY good, but taking much longer than expected.
Point 2 has another meaning: No country can block passes for ships. So no trade blockade, no Suez monopoly, etc. It was a strike against British domination.
Yes because the US would honour this and not use the Panama Canal against its enemies??
@@GG-ir1hw The whole thing US absurd the winning nations wouldn't give up land. Hell in the actual timeline it was a bitch to get the French to not demand Germany be broken up. The 14 points would never have been accepted by the Entente.
@@LanMandragon1720 well exactly. Woodrow Wilson kinda had no real right to press the terms he did. He wasn’t an original belligerent or had suffered like the major European powers had. Kinda joined last minute and got a prominent position.
@@GG-ir1hw from another point, Germany accepted armistice based on 14 points. Without it war could restart like in Turkey.
@@alexzero3736 Let them try and restart it. The real reason Germany went down the Nazi route was because of the American made Wall Street crash and the economic situation it created in Germany before that point under in Weimar period the political and economic situation had stabilised and radicalism subsided. It was this disaster that then caused the NSDAP to enjoy prominence.
I am disappointed that you forgot the many ethnicities living in Transylvania and the people's fate living there on the final map of Europe.
20:17 Flag do a spinny
exept for the polish coridor and the transfer of Elsass/Alsace to france (they definitly should get loraine/Lothringen) i thing this was a great plan ...........
-
austria also should have kept the north of south tirol
-
france can have kameron --- the uk can have kenya --- germany keeps only namibia (as the only colony with significant german population) ---- itally can have Togo and Nortern new Guiny
Certified gamer moment
south tirol was majority german until Mussolini relocated italiens from the poor south to the region.